Blood Gang Member Exposes The HORRIFYING Conditions On Rikers Island, Surviving Gladiator Fights

Surviving Rikers Island someone came to me on Rikers you know came to visit me and was like yo you it's time for you to get on the set and it and let me know like this is a real lifestyle this is not something to play with right so I didn't know what I was getting into until OG was like Hey man y'all Young Bucks get ready for Gladiator school I had to either figure out who I was going to be was I going to be a sheep and be slaughtered or I was going to be a wolf and try to survive what's up everybody I'm here in New York City today interviewing Vidal Guzman Vidal is a former Blood gang member from Harlem who spent years on Riker's Island in and out of jail and then Upstate in prison he's here to tell us about the horrible conditions on Riker's Island how he survived it and how today he is fighting to get that jail closed down this is a wild story you guys we've talked at guards on Rikers before but this will be the first time interviewing a former inmate on that Infamous Island and of course if you want to hear bonus content with Vidal go over to patreon.com theconnect show without further Ado I give you Vidal Guzman right here on the connect with Johnny Mitchell and I seen somebody else that I knew and started hanging out with them they closed the visiting floor down and told all of us to leave I found out that he went into the bathroom and they started cing him up Crips taking turns with his face I woke up with nightmares no matter how tough you are like it you know there's a point of fear or a point where you just just put the fear all in your gut and just do what you need to do right that's when I see lights behind me start to flash and I didn't even think I just hit it I was driving like my life depended on it and then I parked the car popped out closed the door and I started running and he pulls out a burner shank it's like 6 in and he passes it to me and he goes here that's yours don't ever leave the cell block without this he was the reason I made it out of that place alive vidall thank you so much for being here brother thank you for having me and I appreciate you of course now tell us before we get into your story what's going on with Rikers now what's the status of it being closed yeah right now there's a uh law that exists um that Rikers Island has to be closed by 2027 um and the population at least has to be by 3,000 and the population is at least 6,000 right now things jumping into Turn Style sh shoplifting yeah um so right now e even as all this is happening there are people who are dying on Rikers hang on so but the by 2027 the whole all of the Rikers jails is yeah Beed yeah so the city is supposed to go to 12 to four jails um and there's already ex um there's already three existing jails close to the courtroom and just one new jail that's supposed to be bu built but the city this that means means that this city will be the biggest city in the country with the less populated people are incarcerated I see and explain that too because that's an interesting thing I didn't know before watching your story Rikers Rikers the Detention Center is not just the jails on the island it's a whole archipelago of jails tell us a little bit about that yeah so so what people there are existing uh facilities in Manhattan Bronx Brooklyn and Queens but not St Island um so majority of times not even in Queens Queens is not running right now but let's say if someone gets booked um example um and they're 19 years old they'll go to the Manhattan Detention Center um what happens is that someone would have wait until Riker's Island has beds opened up right right so like sometimes you might be waiting in the Manhattan Detention Center for a month a month and a half until they're ready to ship you to Riker's Island right so you're literally still at Rikers but in Manhattan and I see so you're part of the Rikers system even though you're not on the island okay gotcha so but the island by 2027 that's a for sure thing it's got to be closed it is a city council member as a city law that is supposed to be uh closed by 2027 and what happens is is that the city will start getting you know like some some issues will start happening but city council was supposed to stay on top of that and that has been multiple ganizations directly impacted people like myself who' been and and survive Rikers has been on top of that to make sure that it you know city council and the city is following that rer Island should be and must be closed by 2027 um but yeah is there any resistance to that by you know people that want to see more people incarcerated or or you know a different political party that might want more people locked up because you know right now there's been a push back right a lot of push back there was the Giuliani era you know the wild 70s and 80s of New York when crime was out of control when we did need more police the juliani era came and of course like anything American way overdid it right too many people locked up Rockefeller laws all of those unjust uh you know Draconian drug laws right uh and then now it's kind of swung back to where you see you know huge rise and shoplifting and petty crime so I I'm just curious and all you hear about like especially in the new York Post all we hear about is how easy it is for people to get bail yeah how easy it is for people to get out of jail so do you foresee when 2027 does come around do you think yeah do you think maybe it won't be closed I think it will be closed but first when people get bailed out that is the judge's um Power to release someone right like the goal of the bail reform it was once called the khif Browder um Speedy Tri Discovery law and baale reform right those are the the three issues that was keeping people on Rikers we heard of people being on Rikers for 10 years a waiting trial can you imagine 10 years 10 years and you're you know you thinking that trial is going to start let's say your trial was you you was trial ready right and what the da or someone a DA would tell the judge and say you know what we're not ready for trial I got a dentist appointment it used to be like that oh we're not ready for trial um you know like they will keep pushing the case into you have felt the wrath of Riker isent and copped out yourself that's right it's a tactic it's always a tactic even you I just seen um the rapper D thing just come home and he explained about Rico and explains about like you other people talking about like people will keep you there they will have you you know Das and people in power will keep you there until you're experienced Rikers and you like I can't do this anymore yeah I'm copping out what you say you have for me again talk to you know my lawyer you know and they just cop out yeah they put their hand up saying I'm done I can't take the conditions in here but in New York had a close to 98 uh percentage that someone will C out because what happens is that the da can um retain or hold evidence until your trial until trial actually starts so you don't even know what they actually have against you yeah so a lot of times who you know and cuz I was in there when I was in there when I was 16 17 I seen kids take their case to trial and you know like come back and and get life right and and they thought like well I thought they didn't have any Criminal Upbringing and Family Influence evidence you know or you know I was innocent right I don't know how POS how is that possible that's called discovery that seems like the most basic constitutional it is but we didn't have Discovery right like so majority of the time Das will give the evidence to the lawyer of the defendant at the end of the the case right or when you know when Tri let me correct that when Tri is booming right is that a New York state law that allows da to do that it was at one point yeah so you know a lot of other states might do it similar right and then the Barre reform like you know like the baell issue was was a real issue right like people had to put down their houses you know you know when someone's talking like your bell can be 50,000 right who in an urban community has 50,000 to play with right and sitting on the island for 10 years fighting your case I mean who's doing that people that have murder cases yeah some people who have murder cases did you see anybody sit on Rikers for years and then actually beat their case yeah I actually did see someone beat their case um and um he we actually went to the same program called the get out stay out program he was in there him his uh I could talk a little briefly about him and his um C- Defenders got in a situation in Queens where they you know took a body right and like he didn't have any way to be a part of that right like he was just around from my knowledge that's what what said to me and like this guy got his high school diploma his G and you know he was in there for years that's one of the guys that I seen that was in there eight to 10 years and then so think about that you a decade of your life is gone but you just beat your case so you were sitting there as an innocent man because when you go to trial and and win you are innocent so therefore you've been innocent this whole time yeah and you're supposed to be Presumed Innocent not the other way around but it's the reality is it's the complete presumption of guilt yeah but imagine me being 16 being locked up with that person and then getting re-incarcerated at 19 and seeing them still there yeah that's scary that's crazy and that is that is very scary so let me so let's talk about that because your story is wild um your Dominican background yeah so yeah tell us about so um Dominican Salvadorian um and I'm West African so I you know I grew up in the Dominican household your parents are from the island yeah they're from the island you know my mom's is like you know she you remember these routes she took the route uh to come in this country through Puerto Rico Mexico stay in Mexico for a while and then came to New York and said I'm I'mma see what I'm going try to do she looked for her American Dream right and I you know my mom's was a very hardworking woman she survived the througho um you know a dictator through hijo who killed so many Haitians um in in Dominican Republic I mean as a lot of us still know that Dominicans and the Haitian problems is still ongoing now um so she when she came here you know most of our our family came here too but they you know a lot of a lot of you know L exf family especially my you know my family when they came here they was looking for opportunity and didn't get it right so what what happens when you're trying to provide right you get in these drug infested areas you figure out how how to meningo or how to figure out how to survive did your family did you have family from the Dominican who got involved in the in the crack game back in the 80s when it was boom heavy 90s yeah like you know like and majority of all my uncles got deported too so like literally it it it was for them it was like yo we we there's no opportunity right and when you're like hearing that you you you grow up hearing stories of your uncle selling in Hunts Point and you know trying to make ends meat um well that was a real option for Dominican immigrants back then was they would hear on the island hey you can come work a corner there's this thing called crack you could just stand on a corner for a guy looking out and it'll pay you a hundred bucks a day oh yeah and like back in 1988 what is $100 in the Dominican Republic that's like a month salary a lot did any of them become like kingpins or Junior kingpins any of them have success or were they just Street guys the street guys but these guys they were able to my uncles was able to take care of thems in Dr right like mean position them themselves to take care of their family open businesses up and from the drug money they made in New York yeah congratulations good on them I mean they KN I think when you get in that game you know what's like what's the end goal right like they knew they was going to get locked right like I I think you know when I have conversations with my uncles right they knew that hey man we don't got opportunity this is what we got to do and we going to get probably locked up you know so it's like well let's do what we do right so in the meantime they were just sending money back but one of my uncles did get actually locked up um and and actually came back in with a different name and everything those are the good old days when you could do that but he did that recently right like you know like a couple years ago um and you know he got caught up because somebody somebody else snitched on him and and and reported that he was in the state yeah so what about your father was he in the picture nah my father wasn't in the picture I I met my father when he was 18 he was like this uh Ecuadorian hardworking man what do you mean you met your father when he was 18 I met him when he was 18 like I I didn't know I who he was when you were 18 yeah when when when I was 18 I'm like damn that'd be wild so I met him when I was 18 and um I was at time trying to figure out you know like I had a stepfather and my stepfather was around that you know the drug space too right like so I was just trying to figure out who was my real father so I met my father at 18 years old I just came home from um from Rikers right and when I met him you know the story about him was like he's this hardworking man he works hard so my mom's really fell in love with him because he was a hardworking man but he knew there was a different lifestyle that my mom's you know my uncle what's living through right and he wasn't a part of that you know he had that opportunity to find that job and work hard but yeah that's I remember my pops when he was 18 I was raised by my stepfather in a Roop ferian and Dominican household and he was a part of like the Harlem outp pole and being around those areas and understanding like yeah this is how I operate right interesting so it sounds like he was a somewhat of an influence in your criminal activity or your criminal upbringing let's say somewhat I think for me was my brother right cuz I was more involved in my brother's life life my brother's 10 years older than me um he came home a couple years ago he did 16 years um and he he wasn't born here he was basically like you know came here um and at that time you know I was I was I was homeless right and you know at one moment for my mom's to get her life Living in Washington Heights together she was just trying to figure stuff out her coming to America she you know that means she had to have me with with her and some days I would ask her like yo can we get some piz she didn't have the money for that you know and and you know we was living at other people's houses you know family house getting mistreated and when my brother moved um we was living in Washington Heights he moved with us to Washington Heights and seen the lifestyle we was living he did not like that this guy you know my brother was a a good soccer player like he had you know this ability to be someone yeah but then he seen a drug life the ddps was around that you know the DDP was around that space and they became the DDP uh what is Dominicans don't play Dominicans don't play that became the trinitarios trinitarios yeah so yeah it when they all switched when they went into Rikers other facilities and stuff like that and so and then your brother became involved with and he became yeah at the end of his you know at at um when he was incarcerated so can you tell us about the trinitarios they're notorious yeah I they are and I think the when you think about their history is where they got their name from the Patria right the Patria was one of the first um founders of Dominican Republic right so at that time they were the founding fathers of Dominican Republic you know fighting against Haiti and you know because at one time Haiti had Dominicans enslaved right so for Patria was at before it was used P was one of the you know that's what they call the founding fathers right and when for me I didn't hear about theal or theas until I got locked up and I was 16 right right so is that true that it the DDP became the trinit Audios in Rikers yeah I mean they all switched it was a war you know what I'm saying against who a war against who DDP and Anon thalos right what the story was is that and this is my experience what I kind of you know because I was hearing those stories and I was Dominican so I was always in hearing about how you know the upcoming or what happened so in Rikers Island you know when ddps went into Rikers they changed their name their patri Italia right and what happened was the story that was told to me was like someone took the Patria name out to the public and said you know what we're not jacking DDP with with this and allout War started happening between who though ddps and the trinitarios okay and it sounds like the trinitarios won oh yeah because there's no DDP anymore oh yeah now do they there was this brutal machete killing that everybody saw a couple years ago Uptown in the Bronx you know last name as last name as gon yeah real real up it was a mistaken identity they chased his kid into a bodega and they just hacked him to death and these are kids these are not these are not Americans these were Dominicans like from the island didn't speak any English anyways they all went away but what is their the trinitarios what is their presence today and how do they operate are they involved with the Uptown drug trade or is it just uh a prison operation I mean they are operated outside in the public right like you know there have been a couple of Rico laws that you know Ricos have been used in New York a lot now you know since and they're taking down local Crews right so the RICO law has always been used against the three nalos and Washington Heights um and then after you know what happened to you know individual named Guzman you know when he was killed a lot of other things happened after that the RICO law was used against them right to take down some of their leadership um but yeah they are not just a a prison or jail operated um you know group but they exist out in the public right right so but do they take orders like the way the Mexican Mafia actually is based inside of prison and they give orders to the street do do the trinitarios function the same way do orders start in Rikers and then go to the street or it varies right because the thing about it is even and this is when I start talking about the Bloods right like the Bloods you know there is leadership outside but also is leadership inside okay right so like every single gang might have leadership inside that might be the top caller you know what I'm saying U and they might have leadership outside right so you know it's similar to every gang right like if they're a a presence that exists they always have leadership inside and outside right this episode is sponsored by sent birg sber is a fragrance subscription that lets you choose a new designer fragrance every month for just $17 you don't have to invest a lot of money on designer fragrances if you try scentbird scent bird offers affordable and flexible subscription plans you can also skip or cancel your subscription at any time making it a hassle-free experience here's how it works every month you get to pick what you want to receive so there are no surprises they have over 600 perfumes and colog and a lot of unisex options they carry such Brands as Gucci Prada and verace as well as Indie labels like Skylar heretic and fessions of Rebel you can be sure that you're getting a premium scent every month with each fragrance you'll get a 30-day Supply so you can try out fragrances before committing to a full-size bottle that can cost over $150 and sometimes even $300 to $500 I love this idea 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this one is called Cross River gorilla I really like this one it's got a fruer tinge to it uh it's got green apple hints of smoked leather and violet Leaf uh it's got a really rustic smell to it really really nice not overpowering definitely like a summertime scent to it so as you can see I've got three different fragrances for different occasions and right now scent bird is offering you an amazing deal 55% off your first month when you use promo code connect that comes out to about $7 a month once again that's promo code connect at scentbird.com so what was your brother 's function in the trinitarios he was just living he he was like he was a part of this this gang um you know when he was in C he was part of his gang um and I'm talking about the end of his bid From the Hood Vikings to the Bloods because in the beginning of his bid he was he was sliced a couple times you know he was going through it what he got locked up for uh he got locked up for a tent murder right and and and I'll tell you a little bit more about it because his attemp murder um the people you know the person that he Tred to defend himself against right like someone you know my my brother's a hustler right and in the Harlem area that we live at it's not too many Dominicans and he was out there selling like Haze right weed you know and no one at that time you know this is early 2000s the Dominicans had the haze yeah you guys the nobody nobody was selling Haze where we was at eth Avenue sth Avenue you know so for him he was setting up shop hooking people up in the neighborhood you know you know getting people to sell some Haze you know he he was getting people to to hustle for him but someone tried to Rob him for his Jesus chain and and you know around the corner from us and you know he fought the guy back but he came back and you know he you know he went back to our block and talked to somebody to get a gun cuz he's like I can't be seen me selling drugs and somebody just try to take my Jesus chain around the corner so you know he seen him and shot him my brother was on a run for weeks even months the detectives will come in our house every single day and harass us you know um tell my moms like yo you don't tell us where your son is at now we G to send you to Dominican Republic you know telling my pop my stepfather at the time harassing him you know like really to the point where this wasn't policing every single time so while I was getting ready to go to school like I will kind of hear that detectives were really come in our our apartment be aggressive but this is another my brother used to run out every time they used to knock on the door out the fire escape like like we're in like the 1940s like escaping out the back you got down the classic New York fire escape but hear this out the guy that he he shot was all was also a a active blood member okay so for him it it a lot of things played in role right right like so he eventually gets locked up and that's what he goes away for 16 years for he get he gets locked up he he takes such a trial think that he's going to beat the casa the guy's blood and he's not going to snitch that didn't go like that oh like iy went and told on on the stand oh my God literally on the stand a blood gang member is testifying on the stand and to this day he's still blood he's still out in the street he's still he's still blood and they and like that's how New York has changed that guy would have been touched up he couldn't he couldn't live you know back in the 80s he would be gone but now they're letting him crazy the thing about it it's not it's paperwork you need the paperwork to prove something like that right if you're saying someone snitching without any paperwork that person could have probably built so much status gang status that it's hard to challenge their position you get what I'm saying so like do you think highlevel blood and [ __ ] trinitario whoever high level gang members are also cooperating I don't know about that I won't be able to answer that but it somebody knows something right like tell me tell me then your brother goes away takes it blows trial uh gets locked up long bid yeah I assume now you're the man of the house at oh yeah a young young age my stepfather started selling like you know every my stepfather was selling my brother was selling and I it just selling was selling ha or cck crack everything and it for me being at that time I was like 10 years old 11 years old and I was like seeing all that right and you know I was already active I was being a watch out kid around my neighborhood so I was already in that space with with my older brother right like I was always with him all the time and see him do things or you know I come in and see him you know like bagging up you know so I was already in that in that lifestyle seeing things right how did your father stepfather how did he hustle crack like in the 2000s is he working off his phone or did they still have like a a bodega spot they B Spot he'll work at bodas he'll work you know like even from uh I think it was dangerous even from the apartment like he I think he was bugged out and um it it it was rough because my stepfather was also uh Army vet right like he was uh discharged um and you know my and his father served in the Vietnam so like it it's like this wow It it's like my family had you know I tell you my brother was a soccer player you get what I'm saying so like everybody has something going on from themselves and like circumstances change it and like I you know seeing my father he was just trying to like he was just trying to provide man and you know when he like you know my mom's was trying to move people away from the drug screaming at people stop this leave this all alone cuz I get it man like you know my mom's was in and you know going in and out seeing uh family members and the FEDS on Rikers like yeah and mothers of incarcerated families they know the system as much as like a trial lawyer that's been doing it 30 years because they're they have they're the ones that know the rules going into visiting and they're the ones who you know collaborate with lawyers read paperwork Discovery paperwork it's they really are like go through it almost as much as you know their loved ones who are locked up yeah now how did you why did you join the Bloods and tell us about the New York Bloods what is going on here that's our thing man that's an LA that's a Cali thing Bloods and Crips how do Bloods and Crips work in New York City yeah I before I even got into the Bloods I was a part of a local crew called the hood Vikings and like I don't think New York is a lot different than the West Coast right like right now um we might operate how Chicago operate with local Crews right like local Crews it it you know they might not be connected to National organizations like the Bloods Crips GD but they might have control from one block right so I grew up where you know when I started stepping out into the streets more you know like being with friends r happens right like simple things you can come uh from school and home and get in a fight from a get in a fight with a different neighborhood right what people didn't understand Harlem has so many gangs right and like like local Crews and these kids was like 10 to 20 years old wow so yeah these Crews might be Bloods and Crips but you know they this this is what they call themselves to deep so it might be in New York it might be different they California cuz they might be something called double jacking so basically they might be a crew and they might be blood so you could do that you could be you cannot do that but they were PE that's how New York was a lot different than how California is right so did your crew also have its own name and be part of the Bloods no we wasn't we was just H The Beginning of Neighborhood Protection Vikings like our this was like we were just one block radius between 145th between 7th and eth um but we started because you know like certain other neighborhoods would come into your neighborhood and try to violate right and and protecting oursel we knew we only had ourself right like we was from this block we had to protect oursel and at that moment we had blood you know blood leaders around us but what people didn't understand is that at the time there was just a whole bunch of Crews so Drew ham had the two deep Mafia Polo Grounds had TBO the the best out and like the best out was known for taking cops cops guns off the uh off their uh belts wow literally yeah and you know 40 wolves right on 40th Street you know uh say Nick uh uh sh up that's the name of the crew that's rock and roll it sounds like when you actually go to Rikers and get locked up that's when you you become more of this cohesive blood you're under the blood umbrella am I right no so I didn't become blood until I was 19 years old I was a part I was you know Bloods was around me but the thing about it is when I was 16 17 like there's this switch that happened right like a lot of local Crews individuals when they get locked up they might join gangs right so I never joined the Bloods until I came home um when I when I was 18 years old I was almost recruited when I was 16 years old um when someone came to me on Rikers you know came to visit me and was like yo you it's time for you to get on the set really yeah so what and they wear red like like West Coast Bloods and and claim blood and call each other what's up blood yeah I mean when the Bloods first came to the east coast it was it was came in the early 1990s OG Mac um and you you United Blood Nation right like that was the umbrella that you know a lot of sets when they was uh launching that was under right like OG Mack was one of the individuals who was credited to bringing the Bloods to the east coast was he from the West Coast from the history that was said and this is the leadership of Bloods that he has some connection to the West Coast and they gave him the green light to have his own set and he took it to the east coast that was this is that conversation alone is a conversation that a lot of people who whove been in the blood culture has always spoke about that right so a lot of times you know gangs you know the bloods in set started increasing but when the Bloods first started in the 1990s and Rikers you know majority it started because of you know the Latinos right right so there's Latino Bloods obviously no no no I I I mean obviously right now but in the early 1990s you had the Nas and the lion kings right they was controlling everything what about on the streets today what about Crips are there is there a big [ __ ] uh organization in New York there is there's always Bloods and Crips right but because of New York's operation uh crew cut it became very hard for people the flag right or you will put a arrow on yourself what what what people don't understand is that New York the NYPD uses social media to watch people so they're basically breaking Fourth Amendment all the time right you you you know you're not supposed to have this watching someone and they're basically watching people and waiting for them to actually do something so for us like you don't see people flagging like that cuz they know like if I'm flagging that means I'm putting a Target on myself right are there gang enhancements that they can apply to you if you get caught doing a crime oh yeah I mean even if you're a part of a certain crew when they do recoil laws they can take your whole neighborhood down they can say okay you guys called yourselves up so we put a case on everybody involved with crack selling in on yep literally and just wait for someone to snitch does the paperwork do you think the court the judge is reading up out loud yeah yeah they are that's hilarious oh God but it's scary because like majority of the you know I'm 33 I'm about to be 33 um in two months and majority of the people I grew up with was according RICO law Rico you know because they were part of creww right okay so tell us about your crew and you know your what led to your first case going to record yeah yeah I I mean when I first I got the name from one of my friends like I you know I I noticed that my neighborhood was having beef with other neighborhoods and we was just like coming home from school getting jumped we was like yo we got to do something man we got to you know we got to walk we got connect and for me I took the name you know I went to to middle school and high school and I started recruiting um other individuals to join the crew right cuz that meant that I was able to go different places in Hollow what people don't understand when you are active when your neighborhood is an active like you know gangs are operating you got to you got to know where to walk where to not walk right so for me like when I started recruiting people you know we met people from Lincoln projects m so I was able to go to all these housing complex or able to you know go to different neighborhoods but for me like I think the first thing that I got into is robbing right like I was a robber I I was trying to figure out you know I was trying to provide for myself right like I started seeing people having more nicer stuff than me and seeing my Mom struggle it was just hard man like you trying to tell her to buy you a mermar jacket mermar jacket was very big and people you see people still wearing them and I was like Mom yo can you give me a merma $500 that's like half my rent you know and and it was and your your stepdad wasn't making enough from not that he was but at the end of the day it was like that that coat was also a Target so like you'll have this mermar jacket and get robbed of kilford like in New York that is a huge thing like this mermar jacket they call it the bigie season and like you know for a lot of times people wore these jacket as a fashion to show people yeah I'm in I'm in I'm in tune I'm a part of this you know it's what like natica jackets were back in the 90s there you go my buddy has a joke cuz he grew up in Brooklyn he's a standup comic he goes back in my day if you had an Nautica jacket and some kids saw you well you had an Nautica jacket no that's seriously that's really mmart jackets were what you could get stuck for so so you're packing a pistol now and that's really common for Street kids in New York is like you start out just being a Jack boy you know we was a bunch of kid just hanging out but we started getting into trouble right like somebody might look at us different right and get in a fight right and you might get in a fight and just take sign from them that's robbery literally like if you get if police grab you up and say you just took sign from them that's robbery no matter what the headphon any of that yeah strong strong arm robbery they call it so were you did you move up to like being a Jack boy like actually like uh robbing people at gunpoint or at KN point you know that was my thing this doesn't sound very bad it I'm not a bad Growing Up in a Dangerous Neighborhood it just sounds like you were you know it sounds like pretty run-of-the-mill Hood it sounds like stuff I used to I mean I I would never like strong arm Rob people but like you know getting in fights and beefs uh you know it's kind of normal boy Behavior it was normal things right like and I think for me like I I you know these but my story is like many different people right like it's it's like you're a problem you're a bully yeah but I I I was the was the Bad Apple in my neighborhood you know and I and the more I started getting more into violence um you know we started getting into beefs and learn in in other neighborhoods so now you've organized a crew and you're beefing with different Crews oh yeah now we're robbing them you know what I'm saying like you know that that was like and some of those beefs like with my brother when he had the situation um in the guy snitched on him he was from a housing complex right next to us and we will be beefing for for years like yeah shooting at each other like you know did you get in shootouts with the yeah like that that wow if you never been in that situation like it's a split second where you got to decide either you're going to duck or are you running and what are you ducking behind so for me like those shootouts was real and it was scary right and and it it let me know like this is a real lifestyle is not something to play with right so now you're not fighting with fist anymore no if you get fist fights you're lucky right but then it's like you know I had to they just come on your block and start shooting it it gets like that cuz we're literally a block away from each other so this is like stories that a lot of different people in New York deal with right be you know there's Bloods and Crips still around but there's a local Crews who like are having problems a block away from each other neighbors neighbors with neighbors literally every single day it'll be a fight or you know what I'm saying like shootouts M did any of your crew get shot nah none of us yeah you guys can't shoot for man thank God thank God that that keeps the murder rate down shooting sideways but they'll be like they'll shoot in the air and we'll like not run like we we'll just say like okay you know a lot of times I knew like God I was growing up we you know we were scared right like and and and you know when operation crew cut started being more active you know like I wanted you know when I was 19 years old I started being in you know I was locked up again at 19 years old that's when I exactly knew that the da um and the police was watching us more right because for me like I already knew that they was watching us because of you know they throw us on the wall and and check you know check to see if we ever had guns on us and for me like like 15 16 177 and 18 and 19 was like hectic years for me being very young being a youth in New York because at 15 14 years old our neighborhood was a hot spot right so that means cops da like D's will you know detectives will jump on us you know what I'm saying throw us on the wall under covers undercover and mind you you know we you know when you're beefing with people you're you're seeing people jump up the first thing you're doing is running right like out the car and but now you seeing they white you're like okay this detectives let's just go on the W bro and so there's no rights though if they say get on the wall you could be walking from school there's no like uh probable cause that they need nope and that's stopping frisk in St Frisk you know and when that happened literally we would just get on the wall so that means he's are grown men you know probably 200 lb and 63 the was0 how many times do you think lifetime you were made to get on the wall and be paded down can you even count them uh in one week I got I got thrown on a wall for like seven times oh my God seven times did they find anything no seven times and I was 15 years old and and the way that they you know like and they're not nice about it I don't think they was not nice literally they throw your on the floor and just get right back in the car and these are things like have you ever seen um the cental part five right like you ever seen their documentary and you see them get Dawn on the wall that was H that was still happening in us early 2000s right yeah they say uh 90% of stop and frisk uh stop and frisks result in no nothing being found no drugs no weapons um so tell us about tell us about your first bid tell us about how you caught that first case to sent you to Rikers yeah um robbery case uh you know robbed somebody um and I was 16 years old I I say this story all the time I did not know Rikers existed for 16 year olds I wasn't expecting someone to slap me on the wrist you know you know what I'm saying like I I just didn't know what I was stepping into right and that's that was one of the issues that I wasn't prepared for like no one told us like yo this is how Rikers is when I when I I got I got uh um grabbed up by the 30th precin um I was 16 years old and um when I got grabbed up I remember you know like I was in a you know in the holding pen so they keep you in a holding pen when it's uh time for a bus to come pick you up right and first of all uh I was questioned without my attorney being present I you know like uh they didn't even tell me like do you want a lawyer um you know here you know my parents didn't even know their rights right like they didn't even know that a lawyer can be present right so they come to your crib and they came to my crib they a warrant they had a warrant I was they woke me up around like 5:00 in the morning yeah and my pops was like Bal come to the door man and I come to the door you can they had their vest on NYPD and I'm just thinking to myself like oh okay I'm probably just going to get questioned yeah cuz this you know did you know what it was about I didn't because you were doing a lot of robberies I not just even a lot of robberies I was getting myself in a lot of things right like I was getting tickets for theol conduct or trespassing in front of my building like that's how I was being harassed and that's how when you are living in a Red Zone that's what happens right you get harassed by police multiple times so for me like I didn't know what exactly the case was about or or who exactly was for and that ladies and gentlemen that when you know when you have no idea what you're getting arrested for that means you should probably be getting arrested cuz you're a criminal CU you know you know that right you talk to OG's in the system they're like I have no idea how many felonies I have oh yeah oh yeah but I was also 16 and and and that's a very true way to to know like I didn't know how I was in that's all I knew like I I was doing a lot and you know like I was just doing a lot so you know sometimes you can't keep C like oh did I do that or not how do you get to Rikers like logistically you you get arrested in a Precinct in New York explain where you zigzag to until you get to the island and how long does Introduction to Rikers Island that take so it usually for it's different for now for youth when I was a youth and when I was 16 years old and I had two different experience at 16 and 19 when I was 16 years old basically you get you being a holding pen and you know they have a bus out there or they drive you all the way down to cental uh to downtown so they can have you be processed and and be not just be processed but you know be already processed but also see the judge right so you go from your Precinct where you get arrested and then they take you downtown and then how do they decide if you go to Rikers or not the judge would decide that do they have enough um evidence what were you charge how many charges did you have and what was your bail amount I robberies and my bail was 25,000 so I don't know what other things was but I know it was robbery right do you have to put up 10% of that we 2500 yeah but so you guys couldn't make that my mom's GNA make that yeah and then on top of that you also have to say where you got that money from right right tell us about that like they have to you can't just bring in drug money and then you put 10% down you know like B bombman wants to know who are you like where you getting it money from especially if there's already some criminal yeah does everybody that can't make bail get cental Rikers or or or if you can make bail can you still bail out of Rikers or is that where you go when you can't make bail and you're sitting waiting to fight your case so so the only way you might not be able to make bail if you have like a probation parole hold yeah at that time you know I was tried as adult right so basically North Carolina and New York was the two states that Tred kids as adults so what happens is that little time between you getting prepared to go to Rikers you know they put the the cuffs on you on your legs and you on this bus right and you know all of us are youth right because now they got to separate them you got to bring some all of us on the bus is youth and they have some adults in the front where they have them already like caged like caged in right cuz then what people don't understand when you're on buses they might have the regular population in the back of it and might have maybe someone in a small more smaller Cube so I didn't know what I was getting into until OG was like Hey man Y Young Bucks get ready for Gladiator School some of the kids laughed and I was just thinking to myself like I don't know what I'm about to get myself into that don't sound good oh no it does not so you're being charged as an adult but they do separate the kids so there's inconsistency right there if he's an adult he should be with the adults but thank God you weren't with the adults cuz we talked to we know what happens with adults on Rikers especially if you're gang banging how many when you went to Rikers for the first time when you were 16 how many youths were incarcerated no just on Rikers in general um and yeah how many of them were gang members I assume a huge amount yeah uh so there were around so we was in c74 c74 was a youth um and it had also adults who were sentenced and coming back from court to but we had one section where I'll probably say it was like probably like 800 kids probably a little bit more than that just in one cell block no just in different just just in different like nc74 so it's so what happens is it'll be like one house it'll be one upper One Main and one lower you get what I'm saying so so basically it mean three houses and one and one and one building building what I'm saying right because Rikers is a Rikers Island is a bunch of different buildings buildings but then on top of that is also uh sell houses and also doer houses right okay so basically like so how Rikers work sales are for more High classification um individuals right um so what happens is it's always an intake process and majority of the youth are in dentary so dment teries is probably like 60 youth but between those 60 youth uh when I went in there 40 of them was in some way in a gang wow but then that's and were you in a dorm when you first went there oh yeah and mind you I'm just a part of a local crew I'm not even I don't have no connection to the to the National Organization or any national organizations so how what was your first introduction to the beefs there oh man I mean not even just the beef my first introduction to Rikers was somebody put a spoon in my oatmeal and um somebody behind me when I went to you know I just picked it out and was like oh he's probably just so somebody walked by your table and put a spoon in your no no the person who was giving out the food like cuz you know we lined up for getting food I woke up cuz I when I went into Rikers it was already late no more eating so I woke up and I'm sleeping on the you know dorer right next to someone 3 feet away that I don't even know and waking up the next morning for breakfast and I'm like over here like this is a new lifestyle for me I'm 16 and I get up and people like yo get online man you want to eat yeah and you know this the the guy that was you know young dude who was out the food put a spoon in my oatmeal and I woke back I was like oh he probably just left the spoon there by mistake and dude walked by behind me was like nah bro he disrespected you oh that's like a signal and I was like what do you mean like you know trying to like gave me the SPO or should have you know what I'm saying and I was like oh wow for real yeah I didn't think nothing of that but that's a sign that basically means you got to go you got to go fade yeah I got to go fade but but mind you I'm still new so I don't I don't want to get into that right now I'm still trying to adjust where I'm at and like maybe this dude got cruise with him you know like I I'm not just going to pop off and then I'm just going to get jumped you know what I'm saying like I need to know who he has here maybe he has correal officer connect maybe I don't know so you know he's before I even decide to do something he's gone the next day he he get moved to regular population now I hear he's going through it right getting beat up you know like but did look like a punk though because you didn't go immediately fight him no I I think somebody told me that and I didn't look like a punk it was just like I all of us wasn't a we was all new some people was new so we still trying to figure out how to actually um how to actually um you know live or how to actually survive Rikers but how do you survive Rikers though you've got to fight so tell us about tell us about the fighting F I think for me when I when I got got into the fight I was moved into one lower and I leared that you know at that time people youth had something called the the system right and the system basically meant that some people overseeing the the the the comp you know the dorm right like this is their dorm they had you know so they're they make the rules you know they have a team under them maybe five people who can fight and you know and then under them was The Rocking Spots and Gang Violence at Rikers Island like something called The Rocking spot so these rocking spots were individual who maybe might know somebody in a different complex and they they're like n make sure he don't get touched he's good and then you got people who like call the ride right like so that means you given everything your sneakers your pen everything so if you're a ride that means you're a punk but it's not just even like that means you're a victim you're you're a victim but you also at that time like I get it's very hard because it's like it that existed right black people in New York are so funny but the thing about it is is like what it is is that um correal officers would let that rock right because they knew that they couldn't actually put their hands on you right that's interesting so and I and I saw that in your your the the other interview that you did basically there was a policy a new policy when you went in that cosos on Rikers couldn't put their hands on youth inmates is yeah detaining so they couldn't put their hands that that was like cuz you know what happens is if you put your hand on a youth they can report it back to their lawyer and say hey this guy hit me or they can take it to a Sit call and say I got hurt and you know what I'm saying they could probably use it in their lawyers could probably use it as leverage in trial too but hear this out in 2000 in the early 2006 because I was on on Riker 2007 and majority of the times when people reported injuries it was never written down right like I you know there's multiple people even an arthor even someone who was working there talked about that youth reported injuries but that wasn't it was more injuries that didn't get reported right so even if I would have took this let's say if a correal officer would have put their hands on me if I would have took it down to um you know and got checked and yeah that means I put a Target on my head and from the from the CEO oh yeah and that's bad right because was there retaliation uh from cosos to to detainees oh yeah stuff like that can happen right like what what happens is like the correal officer would tell the whoever whoever has the house like yo man I need this to run like this wow and if it doesn't run like this you're going to get in trouble right so okay so because the cosos can't directly touch the the inmates or the detainees anymore they just hire out whoever the shot caller of that unit is and say you guys run it so the inmates are literally running the Asylum yeah basically like the youth was basically like the head would come up to the co what's going on how's everything she will know that he runs that that house okay so I explain they or she or whatever so so the system the system goes the the what do you call what's the name of the shot color give us the tears of the system one more time yeah yeah so the the the person who is the head that he he will be like um he'll basically it it varies right so he'll be like the he'll have the house right like okay and that's how you guys called it he has the house yeah yeah he have the house yeah this is his dorm this is his cell you know what I'm saying why was he did you have to be the most violent or the most or a reput a lot of times also too it be like Monopoly for gangs right what people don't understand in the youth you you know a lot of Youth were getting involved right so like it was also when I mean Monopoly that means like people would know where certain places if this house was blood three thalo or this house was [ __ ] people would know right and like you know for a lot of these young guys it was building their you know they their gang culture or building their reputation so a lot of times when they was known as having a dorm and they was running people outside would hear of that right so so they could actually if they ran their own house and built their stripes in jail like once they got out to the streets Stars I'm saying they might get on or you know it also might be a survival you know what I'm saying like I got to be the most violent because I don't want what I see what I tell people to do to happen to me and a lot of times I even been I've been in situations when people internally turn on the PE who has the head right right because Monopoly when I mean Monopoly is like a certain gang a leader might come to that house and say you know what I want this yeah I got the house what what you going to do and then basically that means either way it can get really bad right so let's say if this guy is blood that came in and it's a three andalo house that means internally they just started a war so the red light basically the red light was uh in c74 it will ring like really loud you knew that the turtles this is was the yeah you know police Storm Troopers stor Troopers big the big masks on they're wearing like hockey gear they're dressed like hockey goalies padding on so you knew they was coming yeah and that means when the red light goes off that means there's Funk there's something going on somewhere and and does everybody have to get down like if you're if the house is a blood house and uh a triny or you know somebody else from a different gang comes in and they try to take the house are you expected to to get down people won't even enter in the won't enter in the space so before you so when you so when you enter inside a doal cell there's a gate that you know is a before you get in right um so a lot of times we even I seen people not even come inside and said no I'm not going inside yeah oh because there's a I'm standing right here right because I don't want to go get out too crazy like you know what I'm saying I'm going to be outnumbered and then the cosos will they they have to call this sergeant and tell him like yeah we got a guy that don't want to be here why he is because of this gang and they'll probably move him out yeah I'm sure and so then will they move him out will they send you the hole no they'll send them to a different they'll send them to a different area so that sounds pretty nice of them it does because if you were where I was locked up at they would just be like I don't give a get in there they either put you in and if you refused you get a hole shot yeah you guys it sounds like the inmates are really running it so um do you recall being in those fights those big brawls oh yeah I mean like those are like okay so so the house you're in you're getting ingratiated um what house were you in I was in one low I didn't last too long why um I didn't cuz at the end of the day like it wasn't I wasn't going to survive me fighting in there like I wasn't a part of a gang right like I wasn't a part of the Bloods right and what a lot of times that means that no a majority of people didn't know who I was too so I wasn't just building up who I was as an individual I have to like people didn't know who I was right so what does that mean though were you getting jumped tell me about this that means you're getting jumped that means that you you might not even get a fair Survival in the Violence of the Streets fight with someone you know like I think people forget like so what would you do if you got jumped two on one oh man you got to just keep swinging and keep your corner to the back right right keep your gra one person just start did you ever like would you ever grab a weapon if they saw you coming grab a piece of whatever I just grab the TV and throw it at them yeah literally like anything I can grab chairs that we can use anything because at that one moment is me against them right and for me like I never lasted too long there so I so if you get jumped they send you to a different different house different house and stuff like that so when when I went through that I it was just like shocking right like I was just in in a in a whole shocking moment because it's different from you doing violence out in in the world right because you can just literally run away from beef or you know what I'm saying I don't want to beef right now like yeah and you're locked up you got to deal with it there's no choice no choice and for me like I had to either figure out who I was going to be right was I going to be a sheep and be SL Ed or I was going to be a wolf and try to survive and for me that's what I chose right and you chose to be a wolf so did you ever get your own house did you ever run your own house no that was so did you have a ranking like like did you did you ever actually end up on your first shot when you're 16 I'm not talking about when you're 19 did you ever actually join a gang no not or you stayed unaffiliated stay unaffiliated um but I got into a lot of fights and now when you tell me about that you get in a fight until the co says enough yeah and then do you get a ho shot or do they just send you back to your bunk it varies right like not every fight get people get caught up right like some fights you can in a dorer me and you might have problem and wait till the CE go then just get it on when the light turn off and either we're going to be grown you know be grown kids grown men or we're going to act like kids and just after the light turns on keep swinging at each other so it's like you know some individuals handle it like that and and that was the best way you know what let me just handle it like that let's let's do what we do so would you remember like give us some examples of something that could just cause a fight oh man time like time slot right some people got certain phone oh phone time tell us about the phone politics yes please I I think for me I I never for me the phone I didn't never know how deep of a issue it was until I was 16 right like I think for me like I never got into the controlling the phones until I was 19 years old how does that work though tell us Yeah so basically um example um so I was 19 and I was in c75 uh you know this this is where the 19 to 24 you know they still got GED High School fuss but when I was locked up 19 years old we was we were a problem like like we were a problem like when I say that is that when I was in a dorer who had the house 19 year olds and these are grown men who were there 40 50 35 some already did bids and I remember my first like time when it was going to get really bad The Lion King ealo and the bloods in the same dorm and I was like thinking to myself like I'm Dominican and I can be the middle man between all of this right and at that time I was blood so at that time for me it was like how do we just sit all all the heads who are in this side and figure out we sat right in the doer and just sat down and say how do we figure this phones out right like we have way too much Bloods they love time slots well so the blood had two phones we had the three enalos had one phone the lion kings had another phone and we had a neutral phone so we have five phones so neutral phones is anyone can get on but every single phones after can be used by anyone after a certain time so after 9:00 or 8:30 you cannot use that phone you know what I'm saying so that is all people who are in The Gang culture time slot yeah and so if you use somebody else's time slot that's automatic oh yeah you you getting it yeah you you you you getting it and and and and dmaries are scary right because you can literally be sleeping and somebody jump on top of you and start cutting you I did that happen I seen I happens in the dorm do people get cut in the dorms oh yeah oh yeah even the youths oh yeah like it it gets real like dment ter is are more for me I think is more um is a more scarier than being in cell right cuz in a Cell you can sleep peacefully and you know you know when that cell open it's like I I better be prepared for something but the dorms you're just exposed you're just exposed all the time oh yeah like you literally are 3et away from someone yeah so when you're 16 how long are you waiting how long are you fighting your case for so I was I was fighing my case for a year I was going to different dorms I landed in um I landed in a in a dorm that was more like a program right like their way of trying to help youth return back to society so I met like some correal officers who had some Black Panther Party backgrounds um so for me like I while I was a waiting there it doesn't I was waiting there for a year but that doesn't mean I was not getting into fights I was getting into fights on visiting floors too like people was trying to build their reputation as the part of being the gang culture yeah that means anyone can be anybody's a Target yeah and one guy that uh that was in the same when I moved into this dorm he was slowly gonna be three and thalio so he had to prove himself you know what I'm saying he turned he was DDP at first and then turned three and thalo and then so did he did he test you oh yeah he did he uh what happened was he was working uh c74 and he was working with it give the jumpsuit so to see your loved ones you get jumpsuit you get a gray one or a line green one the lime green one is like they know you're bringing in you know what I'm saying and you need to keep this on but I was getting ready to get a jumpsuit and a guy seen me he's like yo look who it is man started talking and I'm like yo bro come on man like and I'm looking around me you know mind you people around me who are coming to see their loved ones are also heads of different houses right so now I got to prove myself I'm not a part of any gang and like I got to do something right so I got my jumpsuit you know and I I I I was like you know what I got ready to see my mom's and I told my mom's like yo um Ma you might not see me for a while I might go to solitary confinement and she said why I said um I might get in a fight when I go back in um but just don't worry I hold myself I'm okay and uh you know seeing my mom's crying I was like yo I was so angry like literally boiling and once I stepped in he kept going on but this time so when you get your jumpsuit you got to give him the jumpsuit back so it has a gate open and there's a little slot a big slot that somebody can slide through this dude slided through that slot and started talking and I was like no I swung because I don't got time for that you Surviving In Jail literally I don't know what you was gonna do but then after I beat him up and the CR you beat him up you put him on his pockets I put him in I I I put him on the ground oh man everybody around me was like whoa clean clean what's your strategy for jail fighting like do you just want to knock a guy as hard as you can right away right I mean first I I mean who am I fighting right like cuz I think that's just you know there's some people who can really fight and you're such a small guy oh yeah what was your strategy when bigger guys wanted to fade with you oh man you got to swing and if you got to be able to keep swinging you lose you lose if you win you win I think one of the most important rules in jail is like as long as you don't EA and step down you know what I'm saying like some people take ass whooping some people lose fights what about like nut shots can you can you you do all of that do all that step on toes all that there's no rules to that so for me like when I got into that fight the corre officer took me off and was like n you good he didn't start to fight this guy did so they I I don't know what happened to him but he was like yo man why you hit me man I was just trying to oh he's being a [ __ ] now yeah yeah like come on now like so I looked around me and the people who were also watching was heads of different houses so now I'm like okay I'm pretty okay so you got some stripes I got some Stripes right now people are dipping me up and stuff like that and they didn't send you to the hole for that no they didn't cuz I didn't start the fight I was just defending myself so the correal officer Cen that was like no no no no did you ever uh while you're way to go to trial did you ever go to the hole when you were young like your first time so you got all those fights go nope NOP you know even if I would have had whole time like basically solitary confinement time there was so much people doing solitary confinement they would have had to wait for me some people was waiting a year just to do their time the just to do 30 days you don't know where you're took it like mind you this was everyone's story right and this was the scariest thing you can go to Comm commentary and spend $150 and then you go to you go to solitary confir and then last the next day you got to give all that away oh my God that's scary that's yo yeah that's wild and you just lost 150 bucks people it it happened to so much people like people did you see people getting did you see what do you call them rides did you see any of those guys getting their their bags of commissary taken their bags their sneakers but I also seen people like them actually step up and learn about the system and say you know what I'm going just go wild and they would move from Brides up to what is the middle you're not the head of the house but what's you're not the might's the middle class so like what happens is if someone's on this ride they they'll basically fight someone on the team right and maybe be on the team right so it's like it's like the status right you know what I'm saying so you can actually move up you can always move up and then if you're a real hard rock unless they really don't like you and I se people who were like really tough but they just didn't like them and no matter how many times they have fights they get jumped again and again and it's like that's when you knew what you can't live there right like sometimes some people be like I just had like three four fights and I beat up three people you just probably beat up the wrong people right and now you you just can't be there right yeah and they just run you literally run you off jump you before you go to school jump you after you come out of school jump you on the D on you see guys like that victims oh man and just I mean like some people like you feel bad for them oh yeah I mean like look when you talk about stories as like kif browder's story right like his story is similar to a lot of people's story right he was having like he'll have a fight and then move to another dentary and had a fight there and then move to another dentary and he's just literally getting jumped everywhere he goes everywhere you go and that was the part of of for me like uh not being a part of any major crew or major gangs right so you had kind of a similar situation to khif Bow oh yeah but the thing about it is with him he was a you know he was innocent right like I I was a stickup kid you know he was innocent waiting trial for a book bag for three and a half years yeah um you know the people went up in ranks because of his case right the da the Bronx da was the judge at that time black woman yeah and you know it was rough hearing his story like it's so many different stories like yeah that was a powerful documentary but that's so you're kind of you're like khif but you're surviving a little better yeah I was surviving because I didn't have the correal officers on my back right like you know like a lot of times you can be a Target right you can you know tell like be an [ __ ] to correal officers and people will know who you are like correal officers talk they will put a Target on on your back did yeah was there any you know an adult prison Everybody Knows by now what Gladiator fights are did they have anything like that in the youth houses on yeah that happens there's a you know and um because people forget cameras started being put in in uh Riker's Island around like 2004 they started putting more cameras in 2005 and you know so there was blind spot as people call it right and those blind spot was big enough for people to knuckle it up just and act like nothing happened right so those things they they were places and fight clubs happened right like those those are those are things that and Fight Club is tell us what fight what is Fight Club basically like the fight club would be a lot different than people see on the movie right the fight club would be for survival right like the abilities for people to go up in ranks um or individually to just survive like again right to to to make sure that my stuff don't get took in you know that I'll be able call my family whenever I can you know that I I what is it it's an organized yeah yeah it's an organized thing that someone in a whoever own the whoever is the head controls right like let's say they got a whole bunch of new people who came in and they want to you know they want these positions they got to throw that fight club you know and then so you have multiple people fighting in Fight Club oh man yes you you even have people I seen one guy fight three guys one one fight he's done okay all right next fight okay next fight I'm good he went three for he went three for three for three wow yeah and and and it's like oh this guy know how a duck so it's like and and cosos a lot of times cosos will let this happen knowingly oh man it they will let this happen and it's like the only way that we would know when to stop if correct W be like hey stop what the is y'all doing like I got I got my sergeant coming and Facing Harassment and Trouble with the Law I don't need that and then you like you know it's only when they could get in trouble from their higher-ups that they stop anything yeah like one time like I you know I got in a fight I lost that fight I had a black eye and and the guy that the correction officer was like you okay yeah yeah I'm okay oh you look okay no I don't look okay you saying I got a black eye I got in a fight so it's like at that moment in time you know like was this moment where correctional officers did not play a role in any type of safety role like and even you know when I went to see um with the same black eye I went to go see my um my lawyer and my lawyer was like what the is going on and had the call like was trying to move me out the dorm like I don't need to be moved out the dorm I'm good no no no no no and I have to tell him anywhere you go it's like this so there's no Escape it's no does matter if you go to a different dorm n it's it's it's like it changes the environment being 16 changes right because you can you might be good for a month and a half with no fights but then a whole bunch of new people get moved out and then new people come in uh oh I was going to ask you this before I just remembered how adults when sex offenders or people with bad paperwork come in obviously they're they're terrible things happen to them in adult prisons uh are there any kind of rules in the youth houses around people that would come in for like sex crimes or anything like that more when we was 19 okay right like I think when you was 19 that played when I was 19 that played a little bit more of a role right like we here about people uh you know they're 16 right like what you know 16 17 I see more of that one 19 20 year olds right where where yeah yeah where it's seems a little bit more predatory although a 16-year-old can abuse a little kid you know but I never heard of that story if if if if we if it was I probably so it wasn't like somebody hit the somebody hit the the house a new kid hit the house 16-year-old let's check his paperwork to make sure it wasn't like that it wasn't like that the in New York prisons is more like if they they want to see your paperwork something's going on like you got to be a part of a crew you know what I'm saying or like if you're hanging out with this person you want to see that paperwork right like if I'm meeting you and let's say we're hanging out walking the yard I want to see your paperwork I want to know what you're in here for because I don't want to walk around you and know that you have some of these charges on you right right but your charges doesn't mean you're going to be targeted like it would in like the penitentiary yeah I mean more when you're 19 right okay so let's save it then um okay so then how does this play out you're you're just going through hell for your first year in Rikers do you beat your case do you take it to the Box do you cop out N I got a six months and 5year probation so 6 months of cases um so I got an opportunity to return back to society what does that mean you got six you got sentenced to six months yeah I got sentenced to time serve six months so whatever I already did uh was uh basically took away from my probation right so I came home so six months of cases and 5year probation I see that's what they call it so yeah so I was 17 years old I I went to do cases so cases is supposed to be this um uh organization that helps you to return you back to society um excuse me and I was very successful in it you know got a job and stuff like that what were you doing I was working um as a I was working at this NY spoken word like nonprofit downtown because that that was my first you know when I came home that was my first experience to trying to get a job but that doesn't mean like problems that I was dealing with was still continuing right like you know the beefs yeah because you're back in your old neighborhood but when I was 17 18 that was like problems started getting more harsh right how so cops will harass me like I will be going to court every single week to beat quotas like your little pink tickets like trespassing like I was being harassed by police so every every single week I had to go to court to beat these little quotas or basically in New York they like these uh tickets you get for trespassing or disol conact so like summons summons yeah so I would get all these summons and but were you actively gang banging in the street at this time or were you going straight oh yeah I was all the way active oh okay so so you sort of deserved it they they they weren't just you weren't just an innocent guy that's what I'm trying to get to yeah I wasn't an innocent guy but the part that that was very hard to intake is that they use any tactic to of course basically to harass me right trespassing in front of my building the all cond that because I say hey like what are you doing like you speaking you know things like that or you know so like these was regular you know cops right with the blue D cops right and they will give quotas while the Deeds would jump on jump out on us right wow and imagine in a week you know example when I told you I maybe get stopped five times and then on top of that I pick up four summons and how much is that how what kind of fines are you looking at between four summons four summons would probably be like trespassing and mind you I was on probation M so when you're on probation you are supposed to report any police contact yeah and it's five times a week you're getting broken I couldn't and and I how much are you supposed to pay for these summons like do do they charge you money if you lose oh so you have to fight them you have to fight them so I and it was in the same building as my probation building so I had to go downtown and show up in front of the clerk and uh you know in front of the individual and say Hey I want to fight this and say oh this has been dismissed and multiple times I'll do that or like you know it been times where you know I I got picked up for having you know like they saying that I had a knife on me right like you know I'll be from with another neighborhood right and maybe they got into a fight and we all start running and I don't got nothing to do with it right and you know I'll run and the cops just start locking everyone up right and you know like what happens is they'll pick up a knife and say hey this is your knife that is not my knife right and I literally that case itself I had to go to court six times and they was trying multiple times they wanted to give me community service and I told the judge that's not my knife and I'm not um and I'm not taking that it was so bad these summons was so bad that I was a part of a lawsuit um you know when I first came home in 2015 that I got uh payments of summons that was dismissed so I was part of a lawsuit of individuals who uh like a class action lawsuit yeah against people that were just harassed by these summons har summons so it's Life in the Hood and Joining the Bloods almost like if you're a young black guy Latino guy from the hood that has that has spent time in the system that's that's on probation that's hot in one of these you call them red zones red zones yeah Brownsville parts of Harlem right these are these are gang drug infested neighborhoods and you come home from Rikers you like like you got to move or else you're they they make it so hard for you to reintegrate or you just got to go completely Square you got to imagine you coming home and then like seeing the third you know seeing police calling your name on the speaker like look who it is he's home you're just walking down the street mining your business chilling in front of my block yeah with a couple of friends maybe getting some Popeyes yeah right right and and it's uh you know it's like what Palestinians go through in the West Bank right it's you know uh I have Israeli friends that are like well we don't kill that many of them over there but it's it's not just about like outright murder it's the daily harassment and uh humiliations oh yeah so so you're going through these but at the same time look you you know you were you were kind of straying from what you were supposed to be doing now did you ever did you ever violate at outright and get sent before you went back for your second crime did you ever violate violation crime the violation that was the viation but but what happened was the more I started getting into that life the more I started getting involved in um in in the Bloods right when I first joined the Bloods was it for me like I don't think people understand like joining the Bloods I was already a part of a local crew like you know I was like telling people what to do and then now you were a part of a set that you're new you know what I'm saying did you have stri when you went back to the block after your first Rikers bid did you have stripes cuz you survived rers yeah all the way and and then on top of that it's like there's this like Arrow put on you right like yo he just came home you know like he had a couple fights you know people know people talk right and that was one of the issues that I knew that there was like this target behind my back and and not just me it wasn't just me coming home people we was beefing with was coming home too so like you know they was getting that same like MH you know what I'm saying and so it's literally the streets are like a mere image of where you just came from in jail everybody so I why join the Bloods yeah and what was the thought process behind that and and why how did how did you start getting active with them tell us yeah I I think before I started getting active with them um for me it was like they was always around me right like you know I felt like I was asked multiple times to be at a part of the Bloods and I felt like well it's maybe not the right time for me you know maybe it's you know maybe it's not enough of my people joining and at one time we all you me Dominicans no no no just like people from my neighborhood yeah like cuz that we did have blood people who was blood but you know we also are a family right like when I mean family we all hung out together atting each other's house and like collectively we was like you know what I think it's time for us to be blood and we decided to take you know have the conversation with the homies with the BL the blood homies about us joining Bloods who are the blood homies uh East Coast Bloods you want me to say they said no like where where do they operate out of yeah yeah so they operated out of my neighborhood right like you know we had so Harlem Bloods are these older guys yeah older guys around my brother's age and these are these black African-Americans yeah yeah yeah so I you know I'm Dominican but I grew up in a black neighborhood so what I what people don't know is that my neighborhood was basically black it wasn't that much of Dominic things you had to go a couple more blocks in the hill yeah to see the Dominicans so I was already being you know I was already a odd Bo right I was Dominican you can see I'm Dominican and you know so me first joining the Bloods was a very different type of um it was different right because even my mom's when she found out was blood was like blood you know like I thought that was like a African gang and stuff like that um but then when I like when I I started you know being seeing how meetings was was thrown right like I was I was being but the Bloods was off so let me tell you something why the blood East Coast is a lot different than the West Coast cuz every member was from somewhere else right different blocks so might you know like you know how the West Coast they might have a whole neighborhood that might be blood some of these blood sets might be members from all different neighborhoods are spread out through a a harlem right yeah so what is a blood meeting like oh man it was weird because it was like it'll be like in this like I don't know if they rented out the spot for us to be at but it would be like you ever seen like those School tables so it would literally be like we was at a school table and like you see all different Bloods different age you could tell the difference right like we was young we was what do you mean they would rent out the like commercial space and a building to hold a meeting yeah hold a meeting how many people are there 80 that means wow yeah like I my first time being introduced to the the set I was a part of 80 people I was like oh and then and this was uh this was so it's you know they do burrow like bur burrow meetings right so the set from that burrow will probably meet but this time we have we had a all meetings a whole uh New York Citywide meeting wow in Harlem yeah no in the Bronx we had it right in the Bronx that we got a space in the Bronx I'm picturing something out of the movie Warriors you know that yeah it was literally like that like wow so so you're you're what do you discuss who leads the meeting and what are you discussing in the it can be you know the head whoever is uh you know the boss or whoever is the OG is leading the meetings also they might have other people from different sets to explain conflicts that's going on cuz in the east coast is you know there's different not just set but Nations right United Blood Nations Stone Nations um hat Nation you know it's so many different nations right and like what people forget about the East Coast yeah like when they were in in the east coast they was first uh under umbrella called the United Blood Nation right so all different sets were basically launched under this oh wow and so but but at this particular meeting of all of the all the but but but our leadership had leadership in the ubn right right so we were here not just what's going on internally in our set but we would hear what's going on in other sets too meaning meaning what like interal problem politics did you hear who got locked up or who is locked up who's locked up who need uh do do anyone want to tip in to send money um who do anyone want to tip in to go see the big Bloods and Street Organization homie like stuff like that so those things happen were you guys talking about criminal activity or was it more like like what you talked about kind of like politics yeah yeah but a lot of times when people don't understand when you have set meetings that means something was happening right like you know like either they at when I first joined the books was supposed to be closed basically meant that no sets in the east coast was supposed to recruit accep new members accept new members into they're able to uh figure out what they have right now you know what I'm saying like that was the rule yeah and that was something that was been said for many years do do the Bloods the the the the organizations that are on the streets is it just like the West Coast they they pay they make their living slinging drugs is that the same in New York varies is is extortion um it can also be uh gun running gun running you know a lot of times yeah a lot of gun running um it can be um tapping into already existing things that's happening other different places so you might see other blood members be in Connecticut or Virginia you know and that's how also how certain sexs grow right so that's all got to be based on drugs though usually it's crack cocaine mainly yeah yeah what what was your so it sounds fairly organized if you guys are holding meetings oh yeah I can't believe that's real I mean but you got to understand like the people who and I won't really say their names you don't have to say names but I want to know I want to know like dets there were um people who were been blood they Hing since it came to the east coast so like the leadership we already had were already existing had experienced a lot been through a lot know how to organize know how to you know go through been through issues right so now you've got this you've gone from this crew to now being absorbed into this bigger gang organization so what what do you do you start out like putting in work for them is that how do you do that or do you just you just get to claim blood but still stay on the corner yeah I it varies right like a lot of times people it might be a recruitment right like oh we might have to turn this block blood right like let's turn this block blood for whatever reason right like like the big homie might live on this block you know what I'm saying so we want to make sure that you know this guy's the brain this guy is the the one who's leading everything we want to make sure that they're good right or you know like it been situations where you know and also on top of that I didn't I after I turn blood I didn't have that much time to even try to put in work like I got locked up okay and now that's it's a lot different when you're like blood right and you know you're a part of bigger uh National Organization right when you go to jail now you get to say I'm a blood yeah yeah and that does something like that's blood is a brand yeah it's a brand and also you got to learn you got to you have the ability to learn language right to to be able to interact with each other without anyone else knowing okay yeah talk about that a little bit blood language blood language is always it's created by OG's right the ogs would figure out blood language send it out from like literally this would be someone from prison who maybe has you know who's locked up I'm not going to say too much time who maybe has some time and they'll sit down and write out the Lango and send it out to everyone or anyone who can um get it to anyone hands that they're supposed to have so like if he's trying to organize a hit he'll write he'll send an order from prison the blood go yeah but also that'll have to happen through um through visit so you can't do that anymore where you're like sending letters and saying hey I need this guy out they'll read your your mail what you can do if if someone comes and someone can come see you and you will you tell them what they need to do and they need to actually deliver that to whoever and they need to push whatever they say so you know how to speak blood language or you know how to decipher it you can read it some way in some way uh every set has their own language to interact with each other but then we have a a universal language you know how to interact with each other right so you always had ways of interacting with each other knowing who is who so yeah like I didn't know the language I had to read the I had to read stuff like literally I had to read the books of it the history of it so they have they have history books on the set the set the set itself are well so organized they had their set history what they've kind of been through and stuff like that and they P when you go to these meetings they pass out that literature you got to read it you got to remember if you don't you get in a lot of fights wow that's wild okay so tell us about yeah tell us about how you violated uh your your parole and yeah and now we'll get into the second stretch man I got into beef and and you know I caught another robbery I got into what happened tell us about the robbery man we like details in the show we mistaken someone for the wrong person and like we thought that this guy was somebody we was beefing with we beat him up found out that wasn't a guy we got locked up you know people took stuff off him and stuff like that and I was like yo now for me like I I knew I was it's my second time um going to Rikers for robbery so I knew I was gonna were you charged with assault as well for me what were I hit with was with robbery Robie second okay so you're and when you are on parole for a crime and you get caught doing another crime you get parole violation or you're charged with another crime I should say usually in every case I know you you your parole is violated you got a parole violation and then you're automatically disqualified for bail correct yeah most likely yeah so I had another so um it my bill was 25,000 again and um basically what happens in when you violate probation so you got a bail yeah I got a bail but I can't bail out because I have a the hold yeah the hold yeah yeah so so why even give you why even give me a bail option when I can't take it why even give me a number so for me like I um so you got to see your probation officer um and at that time they wouldn't come see me on Rikers they had this new system that they you can see him through TV yeah they FaceTime oh yeah yeah so for me like I already knew I was going to get violated like this guy was wasting my time so I told the probation officer I said man I don't even know why you wasting my time keep bringing me down here I got so angry I don't know what happened um and I told him I said yo suck my man like this like I don't care about none of this no more like it's my last should be my last time doing this like I was angry right like I would learn later on that the guy was trying to just give me a year and and I got violated when what what happened was they was like you know what because the judge heard about me telling my probation officer that I told him suck my that I got another 6 Discussing parole and probation violations months since damn so now I had to uh I had to I had to do the year and a half right so I got violated the year and a half is the parole violation time the the probation violation right the probation violation yeah and then on top of that um I also uh CED out to three and a half years for the assault or for the the robbery new robbery yeah yeah so for me like I was uh I took the case almost to trial and into the da actually gave me a lower um a low a lower number and I was like departure yeah they was trying to give me 5 years and I'm like damn Five Years on top of the year and a half running wild so basically meant like after I finish with one I got the other one starts right so for me was like okay we oh so that was that was going to be on consecutive not concurrent yeah oh no that's that's very rare usually like well cases that I saw if you had a parole violation or probation violation and then a new crime and you took the new you took the New Deal they would usually just run the the pro the pro probation violation concurrent you know they they'll just blend it in but now you're stacked yeah that me SMD was the reason but I I knew that I had to so I copped out to three and a half you know when I was like I took the three and a half and then and then also do one in a year and a half right but I don't think people if if you ever been through trial like that's a scary moment right you got to pick out people for your juror you you know you are your life is is in people's hands right um when you went back to Rikers though how long were you there fighting the case before you finally uh took the plea uh you mean you talk about 19 yeah I'm talking about this time same I was there for like a year um and I didn't yeah like I was there for a year I was in um c75 uh and I was 19 years old still continuing my what's the difference now you're 19 you're a blood you're you're in a blood dorm yeah yeah yeah now do you try to take the house oh n it's because it was a lot different than the the youth yeah right because the youth oh are you now in an adult yeah I'm in adult fa basically so but that doesn't mean that there you 19 to 24 is like you know you know they they're still keeping us together right so at that time you know I was in c75 where they still had schooling but they mixed the 19y olds with the older population so we were in there with the older population and you know usually people tell you this is not the you're not in you know you're not in c74 there's no fighting there's no I got the cheer I got the dorm this is my house it's none of that you know like excuse me but you slowly learn that there's some type of controlling that happens so did when you went to the adult facility did you is that where you started notice more slashings and and you know knife fighting and like big boy crime yeah for me I started noticing that I I think for me like I learned you know you always ask who you know you you banging bro like you know what I'm saying and that it was a lot different now that I'm stepping into the space I'm saying yeah I'm yeah a part of this set and when they hear the set they're like oh like we don't really hear your set coming through here a lot so they like okay you know then everyone would know that I'm in the space um so when I landed um when I landed in my first dorm I I was met you know I was met with um just PE Bloods who was there they was like 19 20 years old my first interaction was like was in that not in that dorm was when I was moved into a smaller dorm and I got in a fight with a [ __ ] and in in uh c74 or c75 let me corrected they keep the Crips in Tain Tain was a place where mostly the Crips was at mind you you know [ __ ] sets you could there could be a [ __ ] set from Harlem right yeah okay so that's everything's Blended together just like the crews are M okay yeah yeah so you know the Crips got a Harlem Harlem Mafia Crips Harlem Mafia Crips yeah there are there is a live set that been in Harlem for a very long time um but they are separated uh where I was at there was a lot of talios and um Bloods right but me being Dominican I was able to maneuver through a lot right and I was also able to be the middleman through a lot of situations so was this stretch easier than before at 16 when you were not affiliated somewhat like was there less it sounds I mean were you assaulted less like were you jumped less when you were 19 you can't jump a blood you can't do that really no you can't you you can't you cannot one of the things about it is is that when you you can you can literally call a war in the building and I've been in times when we beef with three enalos and everywhere is popping off at the time all other dorms at the same time so me and you get in a fight everybody's getting a fight so all the red lights are going off literally that means people who are correal officers who are trying to leave cannot leave until this is shut down and so I've been in situations where what happen when it's the all the dorms are popping off do they do they have to come in and lock everybody down do they have to spray pepper spray like what's the reaction from the cosos so the thing about it is it someone will write so you know the information will be delivered for uh someone who's getting Medicaid right like getting their pills and stuff like that that one person has to write a note for or whoever is sending the hit out youo send this out to everyone his own site everybody has to pop out pop off at the same damn time wow and he's the one who sends that spreads it to everywhere else cuz they want to make sure if we're going to do it we're going to do it all at the same time so if you're so wow so the Bloods it sounds like the Bloods have the strongest set the strongest crew the strongest presence on Rikers am I wrong I mean it varies right because every every building is different right and like just because you you might have the strongest set you might have other people who might be able to fight but but you but but yeah I mean if you it sounds like they protect their own if you if you touch a blood then that means everybody is gonna get up oh yeah and and like that stuff like that happened and so there is some value in being a gang member it sounds like it's primarily protection when you act end up getting locked up right yeah I mean for me like it wasn't protection I was a part of a a a a crew a family but then when you get in that space and you being outnumbered you could just say I'm a blood so if you guys want to all go to war do it but but even a lot of times for me when I was a was you know I was very active I was never like oh I'm blood and no I was myself but also I'm blood you get what I'm saying like and you know I the longer I started doing my bids you know being controlling phones was a a The Phone Business in Prisons and its Dangers very important like it happens a lot even in prisons right do people make money out of the phone business oh they can yeah they can like in you know some people don't got calls right some people don't got nobody to call they sell you their their stuff for Soups and stuff like that right so like and then Upstate you know like some people don't turn on the phones to someone so they have to sell call for a three-way to call somebody 15 minutes you know what I'm saying so those things happened you know like but the phones was what was getting me in trouble um my whole rest of my time why when I stepped into green Correction Facility the Young Guns you know that that is a a crew from the Bronx um had control of some phones Lon Kings might have control of some phones but for me like I never wanted to get on the blood phones Upstate I wanted to get on the other phone The Lion King phone I wanted to get on the why cuz I didn't want no one to think I'm surviving cuz blood I'm surviving because of me you know what I'm saying and and the thing about it is like I I always felt like I wanted to get on everyone else's phone phone just to be a problem you're doing it intentionally oh yeah but I'm also doing it to show people like I'm I'm not if I'm if I'm this you're you're you're also you want to mess with me like you're going to also deal with someone who can hold them on right but did did the your crew did the blood tell you to stop doing that I mean nah they can't like you know what I'm saying they're like they're they're amused like you know when I come in the dorm they like they be like yo there's a slot open you want that slot and I'm like nah bro I'm good and I asked to see if I can get on the other phone The Lion King phone and stuff like that yo what's up with this what's up with this bro like let me get a slot with you bro and you know the LI Kings would say yo man like you know the blood's got a slot and I'll say N I want to slot with y' you know what I'm saying and not in a disrespectful way or it just for me like I I just didn't never wanted something it's a way to show your your your courage it's a way to show you're not you're not you're your own man like you can stand and you're ready to fight oh yeah did you have to fight because you did that ever like you taking other people's phones yeah yeah yeah you you do you get into fights you know you you get in those situations where you have to fight for those phones or sometimes you know a lot of times people learn how to bid right like I think you you got to bidding is also known when to move right like when when to do certain things right sometimes I seen people come in the dorm and try to you know like muscle their way in and get jumped because you didn't see what exactly was going on in this dorm right like you could be a neutral in the whole dorm can jump you thalos Bloods and King you like what the just happened now have you seen somebody get jumped by all different oh yeah it gets it gets like that so they're kicking him stomping him punching him it gets like that one of the things about it is is that I I I seen so many stories of even people being a like being blood right I remember this one guy um when I was in green Coral facility you know they went to the box to solitary conf and they beat up this [ __ ] beat him up bad yeah and I found out you know he found out that the people he was beefing with outside got a kite somebody told him that they you know the people that he's beefing they gonna go kill his family oh sh and that's what happened literally he was trying to get on the phone because he heard from internally that the people he was beefing with was going to send that hit out to kill his family mind you he was saying multiple times without snitching like yo I need to get on the phone this is emergency yeah and he took his life after he found out his family was killed man oh blood you know like and and it was just so hurtful to hear stories like that so they killed his family killed his family man like and this was someone who the beefing the Crips or who just somebody he was just beefing with and and like it it's rough like that's terrible I even one time and going back into Rikers uh you know when you're waiting for the visiting floor and c75 there's a place where you can also sit at but it's dangerous it's away from correct officer and a lot of times some people beef is very serious right like they might have some beef that that will con you know follow them from the streets to prison yeah and mind you in this visiting I remember this day like I I you know you usually introduce yourself to all the Bloods around yo you know and and and if you know someone you might hang out with them right like particularly this one guy and this is he had problems with the Crips from his neighborhood and um I said what's up to him you know the guy that something's about to happen to I didn't know this and none of us knew it I left out the place you know where where I was at cuz it it was a part of the visiting side and I seen somebody else that I knew and started hanging out with them they closed the visiting floor down and told all of us to leave I didn't know why mind you I said hi to someone you know say hi to another Blood I found out that there's a like he went into the bathroom and they started cutting him up Crips taking turns with his face they kill him no he was literally his face was kind of hanging and this was like literally this I said hi and I'm like you know what I'm saying yo what's up what's going on and I say hi you know I say my what's up to everyone I was literally there and they were cut they were doing that to him in the visiting room bathroom in in the visiting room like basically there's a part in c75 that they had a bathroom open I don't think it's open anymore but it was also one side that is like far is like kind of far away from everyone else it's like it's dangerous to be there you know what I'm saying it's dangerous it's just it's not a blind spot it's a very blind spot wow wow and that's crazy bro it is and it's so it was so bad that he needed surgery to be able to get back to so so his face up yeah and but hear the Imagine The Story you hear like when you go back to your cuz at that time I was back in the cells cell area and I was in a on a side where all the lion kings was was on so I was cool with the lion kings they was cool and I'm hearing that I'm like yo this is rough yeah you know and like so people really get Buck 50 that's not hyp people really get slashed at Rikers did that happen at all uh elsewhere while you were that that second stretch did anybody else get cut for me they did not around me right like a lot of the times like if if you're Buck 50 in someone right now that means it's there 's there's true War there's no coming out of this you're Buck you're not just buck fitting anyone right you know what I'm saying that means you're like not you deserved it Violent Incidents on Rikers Island there's real real that's happening behind that did uh if somebody gets slashed in a different dorm do you hear about it oh yeah we hear about it ASAP if it's someone who's in a blood and and it's uh and it's gang wise yeah like if I was example of a lion king would his sliced the blood and I was in a Lion King house oh man oh damn ate with them you know what I'm saying so like I got into that I got into the cell area because I got in a fight with a Crips and the Bloods didn't help me out wow and mind you this guy was like 65 and you got a fight with him how how did you how do you fight a 65 guy when you're 55 whatever you are no offense I'm like 5'9 no just swung I knew I was I knew I was going to lose but yeah at the same time I'm not going to let someone even on blood this is why is I differed it right like just of my experience and just people I grew up around like I myself but I'm blood right and like I just felt disrespected right like the you know at that one moment where we all knew he was [ __ ] right because he was going into two main and you know blahs is saying all types of slang and stuff like that stupid you know like I felt like people was very comfortable like comfortable where they at and for me I didn't have my sneakers on and this is why you should always have your sneakers I had [ __ ] slippers on and for me like I couldn't be in that dorm and let this cryp dude just say yo suck my and I'm over here like nobody's doing anything and I'm like I'm a swing if I Miss Boom swung he got me I was like I swung you know what I'm saying and and and I just seen everyone else and they put me on the wall and that was it yeah you know like the you know somebody had to do it he was punking the whole the whole room out yeah yeah wow somebody like and and and what and to end that kind of story off there was Bloods walking around not doing anything and I was like and this is not I'm not saying all Bloods I'm just saying particularly and for me like I was on the wall I didn't I didn't have a dislike for the Bloods I had a dislike for the for the people who were around me and didn't do not did you so so you're you're going through this is Rikers like we tell these stories to to paint how stressful being in that kind of environment is like you're is rarely a day goes by where you're not your senses aren't heightened and you're in a fight or flight mode yeah yeah and you know you were talking about how they they don't even have air conditioning on the island certain places of of of of the island you didn't have air condition when I was in c75 and certain cells they was in they would actually bring out this big strong fan to blow so we call it a cheer so if it's in August the middle of August like it's it's burning up oh yeah it's horrible so what do you do do you take you strip naked you get your take your clothes to the boxes because you can't strip naked because correal officer who might be females all right and if they see you naked oh man that's your ass yeah so like a lot of times when people try to cool down you get on the floor the only thing that was cool was the floor and that's disgusting because rer Isen has roaches rats yeah yeah it's old it's 160 year old facility M yeah yeah it's it's falling apart so I landed in in the cells and I was like it was it was it was a little bit more privacy right because I was able to have my own cell I was able to lock out right but you know it was it's still follow me like I said going back into like you know being in a Lion King House you know eating with lion kings and stuff like that finding out was a [ __ ] in the house I had to get him out yeah so I went to the cafeteria to go eat and the blood sat you know all the blood is with me they were like yo yo blood you gotta get him out man he said he [ __ ] and he sat down right next you know they had him come and sit down right next to me to to say that he's [ __ ] and I was like oh he's like yeah I'm CRI ah ah and I was like I went ASAP because the night before I told the lion kings like yo we might have a [ __ ] in the house and their antennas is already up like we got to get them out of you okay so what happened I told the lion kings and we waited till it was you know tapped them and you know some people don't stop right like they don't stop fighting right and cool that's cool I just did I needed to do get them out of here basically you know they got him out of there they had us you know what happens is I ran back you know didn't get caught none of that no injuries on my hand so what they do is correctional officers would check your hands to make sure you didn't have injuries MH gotcha what I wouldn't not what what I would know now is that because I put the works in now the Bloods are seeing that they like yo blood you need to move on this side you know come over here the Bloods move me from my side to the other side told the bubble the CEO he want to come over here and they have the power like that they can tell the CEO we want him over here and so you can actually get moved I got moved and you know being introduced to the Bloods like you know like a lot of things won't happen like you know what I'm saying like certain dorms or certain cells won't happen right like some things won't happen right like some people are just comfortable and they're okay right like violence don't always happen so for me like being on Riker that was my last full like wild out moment right yeah and for me like the Bloods it was times when you know like yo what's going on with the Tom slide yo blood you get on this phone and I'll be like no I want to get not blood yeah they would just calm you down be like none of that on this yeah n because at the time who who would calm me down this guy got life and he's a big homie like you know what I'm saying he would tell me look bro I know you're full of energy M but we don't need that right right no they got real problems yeah I noticed whenever you're around when you're locked up whenever you're around guys that have are facing life or huge huge numbers it's usually calmer cuz they don't have time for that petty phone politics like you know I'm looking at the rest of my life in prison yeah so when you finally copped out you took a plea was going to prison like a relief oh no no green correu facility is known as Rikers too the reason why I say that because majority of the youth who go to green Correction Facility are 16 years old and you know 16 years old facing seven years yeah can you imagine that 16 years old who 16 like seven years so you had 16y olds in adult prison yeah so green green CR facility um at one point had all Youth and that was like fights everywhere so why were you there as a 19yearold I mean because 20-y old yeah because that's where all the youth goes in so you're considered a youth still at 1920 so weird what how it's like you're in you get sentenced as an adult like by the guidelines but you're still a youth it's it's the system's a mess it's a mess I stepped in I'm 19 years old I went to Green correu facility that is known as Gladiator school oh wow literally and mind you when you ask me Life in Gangs and Solitary Confinement how many people are are gang members every single person was a gang member only one person will probably not be Gang Related one srg you know people who are investigating corre officers who are figuring out who is who in green cretal facility for every dorm that was probably like 40 50 people 48 was Gang Related oh at you know so there's gang banging all the time 18 MS13 three andalos blood YG mad local different gangs Rochester Aly you know now you you're full with not just youth who you know what I'm saying but you're serious gangs yeah you are serious sets and now so there's politics everywhere different now it can be not just Bloods beefing with each other you can be you yourself it can be City versus Upstate so you're you're in Rikers too no no I love Rikers yeah this is Rikers 2.0 this is you know what I mean like supercharged when did you at what point in your stretch did you decide to leave the Bloods or cuz I we're we're we're going to wrap up soon I I want to we're going to go over to the patreon and ask I want to ask you more questions about green like that but how when did you say like this is enough and what was different when you came home the second time yeah I keep I kept Landing in solitary confa by myself yeah that do I'm not saying anyone should come with me I'm just saying like I felt that it was moments in fights where you you know like we get in a rumble or something like that and I'll be the one in solitary confinement right or what was your longest stretch in the whole uh I mean being in there a day is seems like an eternity yeah um I did the the stretch when I maxed out I did 60 days in the summertime too so it's hot as so if basically if it's a uh 95 outside it's 105 where we at and that means imagine everything is controlled in salitary confinement right like you know basic your showers just control when you get your food do you get your mail how often how often you get like two phone calls a week or something you get no phone call no phone calls so it's only letters only letters so 60 days with no letters maybe you might have a visit and your visit might change because of classification how long you've been in a box but what how often do they ever let you out how many showers week do you so you you were supposed to get it felt like I took in a week I felt like I took more bird baths and showers right but you know you you able to get an hour outside of your you know outside of your cell but then then that's like in another gate and then the gate would be smaller than than cell but what really got me into kind of push me away from being in the Bloods was that I just had to think about where I was right every time I kept Landing in solitary confinment it was like this movie where I kept hearing people's stories or kept meeting different people right and I asked myself like I think this was my last time I thought this was my last time being in solitary confinement um what got me here what's next what am I going to do after this and I looked at a mirror and I'm just like yo I cannot keep doing this right like so when you in salitary confinement you get to talk to to other people right I someone right next to me was 18 years old they were just they're doing seven years and then somebody on the right for me been in the system their whole life yeah 50 years in and out wow 50 years we call that life in the installment plan you know yeah and I'm just like sitting down and saying like wow and this dude is been active is you know in the blood too like's he's getting his you know he's a part of this lifestyle and what's that done for him it's got him in the hole for me I just kind of thought I was like yo I need to change something you know what I'm saying and and and my my I had an opportunity to do that when you know what happens is like when you're big homie get kicked out the whip what they call is like basically if a OG feels like that person they don't like how they're leading they can just say hey you got to get out my set that means everyone that that person's under can has to choose someone else to be under or you can just say you know what like and some you had an opportunity to say you know what like I really I don't want to do any of this oh so you could just drop out with no consequences no it was consequences like it was because well you tell us how far into your stretch did you drop out like before your release date it was 2013 I was at like kind of year year and a half but what happened was that put a Target on on on my back right because I was also in a blood facility right so now you know I love the phones yeah and now that I now I'm trying to you know I got to get on a phone at certain time right so now I I I'm taking phones and controlling phones and saying this is a harlem phone so I'll get other Harlem people M to be on this phone or the three I I'll get on the three this is and I'm won't even be I'll be one of those guys that say all you know like yo can we you know the thing will say hey man you think we can make this a three go go ahead do what y'all want I just need to get on the phone after I get on the phone so you didn't have any consequences for dropping out I I didn't I didn't have any consequences but in realistically be there was this history uh because the Bloods has snitched on my brother and it was that like behind people's back like we kind of didn't do him right right nobody was sending me anything right like nobody was coming and visitting me nobody was sending me any money like you get what I'm saying nobody was checking on my family right and and you know when I tell that story of the person who took their life you know you get what I'm saying like there was I was just very little honor littley I was just very confused of where what was my 10 years going to be here yeah and I just I just had to have a a grip of my own life and say yo got to change and I already been in the system so you know yeah 24 I might be 20 23 I was 23 at that time yeah so and then you did you get all your good time no hear this out playing with those phones you play with fire so we had I was in um I was I was doing this drug program so you got to do a drug program when you come home and New York state right uhuh so I was in a drug program space I was almost done I was supposed to go home June 3rd I was like a month before I was going home and this is what happened this is it there was some issues this blood dude I thought I was cool with him right like you know I would give him tobacco I was taking a nap you know like I was just working out getting ready to go home I had you know s the M it was Sink of the m and I I was going home in June mad blood dudes came into the doer right and we had time slot and that was with correctional officers so they put the paper up to have people put their times that they're going to use the phone and then the first thing I tell the dorm before everyone like leaves out like yo y'all already know my time slot Losing Good Time and the Impact on Parole and Y already know what time it is you get what I'm saying like somebody dropped a slipped on me it was this blood dude somebody snitch on you snitched on me dropped a a a slip basically me that was saying I was selling weapons around the campus were you no I wasn't I wasn't at all I did you get into any kind of criminal activity up there besides messing with the phones nah not really like fights go solitary confinement and stuff like that you know you get good time in New York state if you get sent to the whole for fighting do you get good do you lose good time yeah you they can challenge that oh right and but for me like but you didn't lose any good time that way I lost my I lost my good time when they fought the weapon okay so what' you have on you it wasn't it wasn't mine hear this out like the guy the guy put the weapon inside the can I went to sleep cuz you know we was in a dorm yeah I went to yeah I'm in a dorm inside of the tobacco can yeah inside of the tobacco inside of the tobacco and dropped a slip I was sleeping I woke up and correal officer said search oh damn and I'm like search for what and he searched my he found a weapon in my now I looked I'm like yo it's single them I I'm supposed to go home next month and I'm like yo I knew like in some way they was gonna you know somebody was going to come so you just got set up looks like out of a movie man yeah I got set up so how much good time did you lose for having I lost my six months I was supposed to go a full six just for having a weapon and it wasn't mine and I was explaining multiple times and what you what people don't understand that because I already had a track record of going to solitary confinment you got a long tail on you they they weren't believing you they weren't yeah wow so what was your full when you came home how long uh total had you been in from the time you got arrested at 19 until the time you got out of prison yeah how how long was it came on when I was 24 so five years something around like five years yeah wow that's a long stretch man yeah and a stressful one it's a stressful one but it's also it's different right because I'm young yeah right and I'm I'm experiencing a lot of things that people already dealing with at they 30s or 40 right but for me like what happens people don't understand like when you lose your good time that means you're being sent to a different facility they sent my ass 8 hours away from New York City I was in River view I can see the Canadian Bridge from when I when I walk the yard what was the name of that prison Riverview oh okay so you went from green to Riverview Riv facility oh and that's the worst cuz now your people have to travel they can't see you and it takes them all day to come and see me um and then at that time too like multiple times I would tell him this is not my weapon they did not care no not from a guy like you man literally literally 6 months I'm like yo I'm about to lose this can you imagine June 3rd comes and you think you you dressing up and thinking you're going to go home New York's about to be beautiful you're going to see those buildings yo and you bang and what I did I was so bad because I was like banging on the gate yo I'm supposed to be going home and they like nah man you are waiting to be seen I supposed to this is a new case that I'm kind of fighting right so that means somebody from the public will will basically hear me out so what do you mean so when you catch a new case oh they were actually charging you with a Criminal Case having a weapon is so yeah so they was charging me with a new case and I was telling them multiple time that's not mine so even if I didn't get charged with a new case I they took my good time away right so but there was a possibility that you were be retried if wow what could they have given you if they wanted to for that like a year I don't know man like because it's six months so they just looked at it the da or whoever looked at it and said we'll just just just take your take a time yeah so it it was rough cuz at at that time I was dating someone I like yo she's definitely gonna leave me wow yeah that's crazy so what but you but you you did you finished out a Riverview you paroled and then you came back to the block and like how what did you do different you know what I mean yeah I I I got more active in the get out stay out program so I started I started talking to people who came home just like me what was their returning plan right like CU everyone got a returning plan right like what what are you going to do what if it doesn't work how do you not give up and so I got introduced to a lot of people coming home right and then and um so December 31st 2014 um I came home before the ball Dro wow literally so starting a new year a new day um and you know I got involved with programs the get out St program I started speaking around you know speaking for them speaking to their to their funders about my life um and and and I slowly started um hearing about other campaigns like the Clos Rikers campaign not out releasing um I was already vocal in a raise the age campaign basically um raising the age for accountability for youth 16 and 17 right um and that's been successful they don't have any youths on Riker's Island anymore wow that's I was a huge part of that um using my voice um so I when I joined the the campaign to close Rikers I I was still working and you know I came home I worked as a I worked in the food industry I joined this uh food truck called Drive change that only hired forly incarcerated youth returning back to SU Society we won a Vinnie awards for the best TR food truck um in 2015 Oprah even was looking at our it was a grilled cheese with maple on it it's on fire maple syrup maple syrup damn bro yeah one of too much diabetes in the H you guys got to offer something healthier oh yeah but I I heard about the Clos Rikers campaign I got very active in it became a uh uh you using my voice um and then I I heard of a position open and I got hired as an organizer um and and I just you know started organizing learning about how do we actually close Rikers um organizing with former judges like judge Litman who actually uh created this liment commission that he and others um who are police officers lawyers who play a role in the system and starting figuring out how do you actually really close right so you have a lot of support like there's widespread support from not just former criminals and incarcerated people but politicians and law enforcement that say this isn't working we have to close this down and it happened because of of not just because of khif Browder but the outcry that was big though yeah that documentary was huge in 2016 yeah so when the campaign first started it was launched with uh 50 people like 50 organizations um especially being in New York um and it was launched in 2016 um so I I got a time to just like really be active in that space and what a lot of the things that they were able to change is the you know uh small Violations and Dangers of Rikers Island things that you get locked up for right like jumping a Turn Style why are you getting locked up for jumping a Turn Style gravity knife um you know things that like uh Broken Window policing or khif Browder had a stole a backpack but then he's given a an unreachable bail and now he's you know his life is ruined but but that that that abilities of closing Rikers was very scary for a lot of people because it's like that never happened it looks like a fantasy like what I used to say in my old days like a unicorn at the end of the block like is it real yeah yeah is it real so I I organized we started organizing directly impact the people getting organization Litman commission came out pushing at that time Mayor DeBlasio we was following him everywhere we were following him to house we would follow him to Florida we were burn that sounds like a violation yeah it was I think it was but here this out we would we would even uh Gracie Mansion like people didn't know I when when we had I would literally stay in front of GRA Gracie Mansion at like 6 o00 in the morning with uh with a security suit acting like I work around there watching to see where the mirror go like that's how intense the campaign was right like we would catch him at YMCA you know we would catch them like literally out that was what what is so where I guess where what's your argument what's your argument is it that Riker's Island is so corrupt it's such an old building because like where are people that get arrested going to go maybe maybe you say okay we'll stop arresting and giving uh crazy bail to yeah Turnstyle jumpers but what about people that get catch felonies where are they going to go are there other jails for them to go to and are they are they better like what is it specifically about Rikers that is such a violation of Human Rights yeah I mean first of all it's like alcat right like alcat is was so away from population to get to Rikers you got to get to a bridge so many human violations happen that we might not know about let's say if someone's getting harmed that issue is fixed before they even you know before somebody figure investigates what's going on swept under the rug all the way but it's also like you know Riker Isen is built on trash right and and I don't think people understand when have you ever been close to Rikers or you've been in in places that are close to Rikers people don't understand that um you can smell this like eggy rotten smell and oh when it's hot out it must smell disgusting disgusting and that's and you're breathing that in like correal officers are not drinking the water you know like oh yeah you were saying you can't drink the water on Rikers yeah good luck that's why you'll get you don't know what's in the water like our the P built on trash built on trash the pipe system is old um you know you hear you you know you hear about people drinking things and dying like you you even correal offic don't drink water from here they so you have to do they have a bunch of bottled water like what are you supposed to do what are you supposed to drink it's bad cuz we got to drink the water what we're going to drink from so do they give you bottle water no no we had to drink that water oh Jesus it's horrible and one of the things is is like it was Riker Island um they also had like you know you also had a hospital there you know you had um power plants right right what people don't understand like power plants are very scary and very uh toxic toxic right and when you look at like certain neighborhood as um Hunts Point and um uh uh where's Nas out NAS from Queensbridge Queensbridge right they has they also have a power plant over there the study that has found that the people around there the kids and asthma has picked up because of those power plants and that was another Factor playing on Riker Z yeah it's aess pool up there so many different industrial uh facilities and things around it it's that makes sense environmental wise human human rights wise um and it's just hard for people to come see their loved ones and most of the times people who are in there uh you know I never had my lawyer come see me unless he was a pay lawyer so like the the reason behind this was this was always like a model that been talked about getting the city to 12 to four jails so the facilities is Manhattan Bronx Brooklyn and Queens so anyone who's incarcerated what they're trying to do is you know pass a legislation to keep lowering the population by passing you know making sure people don't land on Rikers right attorning violent uh um programs or AV AV no um to remove people pardon me to remove people before they get into rers right like you get them into programs right if someone jumped a ter style how do you get them into programs to get their life together right but I understand like people who have felonies you know REM remanding is always going to exist so people got to be somewhere but what we saying is like the the condition that exists right now is unlivable for anyone right there's I read now there's overdoses all the time overdoses all the time people taking their life correal officers not following protocols when it comes to checking on people who have mental health issues people mental health is mental health is is is uh people getting mental health majority of people who were laying in there have mental health problems are people did people commit suicide while you were there yeah that happens they hang themselves that's a real thing right like I remember my time when I was a uh when I was a youth I seen a I I seen two kids back to back in the same place hang themselves oh Jesus and it's scary right cuz these are kids like if you and and anyone can watch this and look at a kid look at kid around your neighborhood maybe he's a kid mhm cuz of fear about what they're going to go through on Rikers M right and uh for me like seeing that because I I I I you know when you see somebody make a rope you know what I'm saying and not having a conversation with someone you know something's going on wow so like a lot of time when we check in with someone I'm a he ain't talking and that's how you would know like somebody was about to take their life they just turn off shut down yeah the co has to press the button and you know they have to bring cut him down and stuff like that and you saw that yeah yeah oh and khif Browder rest his soul I believe he took his own life Tom he he was already trying to take his life when he was on Rikers right yeah so so people people's minds just get completely messed up from spending time in Rikers I mean you're lucky you didn't I mean you were bullied like when you went in at 16 you were essentially like bullied for a year and being jumped and and getting in so many fights it's like you know you really have a a strong will to be able to like survive all that you know but it's also too is scary because I I woke up with nightmares too like shaking and like like you know what I'm saying like thinking that somebody's going to harm me right like and no matter how tough you are like you know there's a point of fear or a point where you just just put the fear all in your gut and just do what you need to do right yeah and like Closing Rikers and the Impact me seeing that was scary man so do you think once Rikers and by the way how who when when was it finally when did they finally decide to close it yeah yeah so 2019 uh that was uh the liment commission was uh they was coming out with the report right um and at that time Mayor DeBlasio wanted to come out with his with his like support beforehand right like you know mayor is there right for different positions they don't want to make they don't want themselves look bad we already making him look bad we're following him everywhere we're going to Miami with him you know what I'm saying we're following him to his house in Brooklyn you know we're watching yeah his wife no no yeah but so it's is we are making his life a living right right so once so but did he give the ex order like who has the power to close rers yeah so he came he actually went to city council and um did a public announcement wow okay mind you he did a public announcement in 20 2018 but nothing happened that's what the you know what I'm saying like just because somebody say they're going to close Rikers that doesn't mean Rikers actually get closed he went on TV and said yo we closed Rikers but with what Foundation like what what does that look like so for a year we literally created a built Community platform that mirrors the Black Panther Party and the young Lord's way of meeting people's basic needs so we went to all the all communities that been imp that uh f up Rikers right this is this uh the Green Haven Think Tank where they they were a whole bunch of incarcerated um ogs in the 9s that started investigating where exactly zip Cod were people coming from and we used that model um and we just started doing events in um basically in all the communities that are impacted by Rikers right besty Harlem most of the Bronx right um South Jamaica Queens and we started doing community events going outreaching you know getting political uh figures in the space politicians people in the gang culture and figure out what do we do if we if Rikers get closed right that is a good question will the overdoses stop if people if inmates they don't go to Rikers they go to the downtown jail like you know maybe right probably maybe some of it everybody wanted to know like what exactly what like what do you think and then we'll wrap and go to the patreon what do you think will happen in 2027 when Rikers the Island does officially close and you know people that get remanded arrested or fight in their cases they go to other jails they they will basically if they're locked up in Manhattan they will go to Manhattan facility right the reason why just from someone who wasn't a gang culture I believe that is a very important thing to do because you can't like and this is just me speaking because the gang culture can't can't be as can't rapidly grow right because when everybody spread out now they're not just in this one cess pool and that's what happened a lot of the gangs a lot of gangs on Rikers how the blood spread out how the trinitarios were born there yeah how they all spread out was because everyone went to Rikers that makes sense so now there's you don't have as much of a breeding ground for gang activity now but you also now have a smaller population coming in and out right now you have a bigger space a space to have more nonprofits be active now you have more like when you go to the Brooklyn facility like you got Elders who come see their loved ones and they can't even sit down right like I I get it like you that's unfair right like these are people still awaiting trial right and like it's not just about just closing in jail it's about uh conditions right like Manhattan tomb's programs can't fully be active there because of how structural it is or you know I can't if you go to Manhattan tombs right now and someone's trying to look out the window they can't do that so once Rikers is closed you guys can focus your efforts on these others jails yeah and I mean that is a model that was used this campaign has been a campaign that model that was used around the country La yeah Justice La when they stopped their $3.1 billion dollar exp uh uh prison expansion that they was trying to do right in Atlanta where they actually used a facility that was only intaking small amount of people and and close the facility and and this was a woman L woman and they LED campaign and they turn that facility as a One-Stop shop for everyone you know like uh so there is like different campaigns so it's progress yeah and in Philly um the mayor closed the facility before we even before we even had the meeting with wow so the pressure worked yeah the pressure really worked starting to work but the part about it is is that you got to be able to figure out what is landing these individual in here of course you know what I'm saying like poverty how do we address those poverty right like you just can't say Hey you know we need to end poverty what does that look like right you know so for me being in those spaces and having a story and and being and experiencing all what I experienced I use some of that teaching of what I went through in the field yeah right like you know when a lot of people ask me y I can't get in in tune with my youth man can you come in and talk to them you know what I'm saying I'll go in there and S them straight like so you will talk go to Rikers you go to rers talk no no but I mean just talking about like okay on the outside the outside like you know because you got to remember right a lot of you've got to come home right so for me there's a lot of hard conversations we got to have always every year yeah you know we we always trying to build a better world for everyone right and what does that look like well you're doing great work man and we're going to put the link in the description they can go donate to the nonprofit give us uh one more time or is it a GoFundMe or tell them tell them where they can donate what's the we're doing a GoFundMe for America on trial that's my nonprofit um if you want to donate as an individual please reach out to me you know by Instagram by my website um and you know I can send you a donation letter and say hey thank you for donating we are looking for board members too um and you know whoever is out there just want to have conversations um your donation will go very far dollar $5 $10 $100 means that we can able be able to keep funding our you know our work right helping people return back to socities um building more leadership among people who are coming home amen amen the killer uh interview that was fascinating um you stick around and do a a bonus episode real quick okay man we got energy still thank you guys uh switch over patreon.com thee connectow uh vid doll thank you so much brother appreciate you thank [Music] you use my coupon code connect Co n nect for 55% off at sentur it's just a little over $7 for your first month unbelievable once again that's promo code connect at scentbird Sponsorship Announcement thank you so much for sponsoring us