EU-US Forum Fireside Chat | Live from Vienna, Austria with Ambassador Richard Grenell and Guy Benson

my name is Matt mauers I'm the founding board member of The euus Forum on behalf of myself and Joe Grogan our other board member with the Forum who are here welcome to Vienna uh on this beautiful weather beautiful day and we couldn't be having this conversation a more pressing and important time uh we have seen bureaucrats whether they're in Brussels or Washington DC working overtime these days to try to restrict free speech and to censor more free speech online to implement energy policies which are jeopardizing National Security to implement radical environmental agendas which are trying to run out family farmers and to actually ignore the crisis of immigration and the causes it's having the impact it's having on everyday citizens and so back in March we started the euus form in order to be a voice and a check on the policies coming out of Brussels and to also inform Americans about what is at stake because so many of the ideas that we see on the American left actually originate here in Europe and whether it's socialized medicine policies that would destroy the medical system and the healthcare delivery system uh whether it's those radical environmental policies many of them start here and we've actually seen just in the last 24 hours this shutdown of free speech where you actually have government officials want to dictate what you're allowed to think and what you're allowed to say well there it was the policy that we saw in the UK uh just the other day that started saying that you could not uh utilize and express your free speech on social media otherwise might be inciting an incident to a commissioner from the EU commission last night send sending a letter to Elon Musk the the owner of X warning him about a live stream he was about to have with President Trump these are the types of things that they are trying to do to indoctrinate an entire population right now uh into a liberal ideology and that's why we exist to fight back and so we thought it was so important to have this event today when we kicked off in March we had a great event in Rome we then had a follow-up panel in Washington DC we actually invested almost a million dollars into advertising around the EU election uh Parliament elections that happened in June in order to actually give voice to a number of those issues we talked about and we saw the results we saw some of the record increases in conservative members of parliament elected we saw the collapse of many of the parties on the left except the problem is this Brussels is still ignoring the will of the voters because they refuse to actually change any of the leadership that is emanating out of Brussels despite the fact that the voters of Europe in the European Union sent a loud and clear message of a new direction that they wanted a direction that involved stronger border controls decentralized control so people could live their lives a protection of free speech they've ignored that because they want to hold on to the political power and so we thought it would be great to have Guy Benson Ambassador Rick grenell with us today you know Guy Benson of course is a Fox News contributor has the the guy Benson show is the political editor of town hall and Ambassador Rick renell someone I got to know when I served in the state department under President Trump not only did he serve as a remarkable ambassador of Germany where he told some really tough tough truths including some tough truths to Angela Merkel about what would happen if they didn't diversify and break away from Russian energy and adopted this green New Deal style energy policy some tough truths about standing up and getting serious about the interconnectedness to China he was then uh appointed as a presidential Envoy by President Trump directly to handle for Kosovo and Serbia peace negotiations and talks to have an ongoing uh long- lasting peace discussions there and was able to actually Foster incredible progress made uh in order to get them to actually work together in more econ intertwined more of their economic relationship as well and so we're honored that they're both here with us today two amazing individuals who want to protect free speech and the great way of life that we all know we can have both in Europe and the United States our good friends Guy Benson Ambassador Rick [Applause] renell well done thank you thank you Matt good good afternoon everyone thanks for coming uh I am Guy this is Ambassador grenell it's good to see you again nice to see you so be here in Vienna it's just a beautiful time to be here although I want to come back at Christmas I think I've heard it's just incredible at Christmas time uh so a lot of what we want to discuss today is what a second Trump term might look like in terms of foreign policy in terms of the EU specifically but before we get to that before we get way ahead of ourselves I think an appropriate first threshold question is will there be a second Trump term because you might know we're in the middle of an election cycle it's been a little bit wild maybe the most eventful month and a half that I can remember in an American election cycle covering this for a couple decades so let's just start there um handicap this election for us how confident are you that Donald Trump's going to win I like the first part of the question where it was just an assumption that we won which would be amazing uh we got a lot of work to do before then um I'm certainly not uh saying we are absolutely going to win I think we are I think that the mechanics are there um but it's a long road to get there and obviously it goes through Michigan Wisconsin Pennsylvania and so we've got a a lot of states to win I in terms of just like handicapping it um I'd rather be us than them and one of the reasons why is that um I think the American people now know they feel the difference between the Trump Administration and the Biden Administration Biden Harris Administration they see uh a massive war in Europe they see a massive war in the Middle East they see our open borders they see the numbers of of illegal immigrants that have crossed into our country and more importantly I think they feel the effects of inflation every single week when they put gas in their car when they buy groceries I can't tell you how many people say to me constantly I'm voting just on the grocery issue alone when you go to the grocery store it's shocking now look I can afford it but I'm shocked when I go through and I see just how much things are it wasn't like that under President Trump and so people feel that and the election was incredibly close last time so I think that the public has already decided that they would rather have closed borders no Wars and and cheaper gas and groceries and so I tend to think it's almost over to be honest I I I feel like people have seen the effects of both presidents and and look this is a very unique case in that we're not talking about a politician promising what they might do in the future and then the media saying oh this would be great and have an economist say the this would work it's literally the vice president of the United States who by her own account was the last person to leave the room on every big decision with Joe Biden and so the Joe Biden comma Harris team uh we see what they've given us and we also know what president Trump gave us I would agree that if it were still Joe Biden running as the Democratic nominee the elected nominee of their party who they threw out the election would be pretty close to over Donald Trump seemed to be very much on a Glide path to Victory but since they did this switch and KLA Harris is now the new nominee the media is very excited about it yeah Democrats have become much more energized and the polling has closed and she's taken the lead slightly in these polling averages uh which aren't necessarily determinative of course as we've seen in the past but it has at least as an outside Observer and I know that you were not officially part of the Trump campaign but you're sort of unofficially helping and you're close with the former president from my perspective in the media it seems like the campaign has been a little bit flat-footed maybe a little spooked by this change they were planning to run against this guy and now it's something different do you agree with that do you think that they're they're having to Pivot in a way that maybe they're getting around to a little slowly well we certainly have had to Pivot but I don't think that that we're spooked in any way because most of us figured Joe Biden is not going to make it we could see that um even though the media was denying it and Democrats were denying it and we were being mocked for bringing it up um it was inevitable that he was going to step back and I think we all assumed they're not going to have a messy uh quick primary of some sort they're just going to nullify all the votes and get have a bunch of Elites get in a room and pick somebody and they're going to pick kamla because they can't shove her off the stage she's been the vice president and so um yeah it's been a big change um I think the the excitement is from the the media that absolutely already had a candidate and but now they get to be excited about somebody new and the Democrats showing up at the rallies um you know they're big rallies but but I the reality for me is that all of my Democrat friends were always going to vote for Joe Biden reluctant ly now they're excited to wear their comma shirt but I don't think that they got any new votes they haven't picked up any new votes the in The Independents people on the fence are still leaning Trump Independents actually are going for Trump and I it goes back to I think a war grocery prices uh multiple Wars and um the open border before we talk more about a potential Trump second ter his opponent we've mentioned her a few times the vice president KLA Harris for those people who are just getting acquainted with her a little bit um overseas or or even at home what is your sense of her political character her political background she's California you're California you you run somewhat in similar circles and know a lot of the same people what's her reputation out on the west coast and then what has that become in terms of her reputation until three and a half weeks ago in Washington DC well first of all the uh California is by far the most far-left State as you know this in all of the United States and KLA Harris is by far the most woke Democrat in California she is radical by her own words I mean she's questioned red meat she doesn't think we should have red meat because it's bad for the environment um she is on You Know video saying you got to be woke you actually got to be really woke you got to be more woke than anybody else um she's on video saying I want to ban fracking I want to get rid of ice cops don't help on the streets she's literally the most radical nominee America has ever seen she's a San Francisco radical and so I I just don't see the American people uh voting for that now it's our job on the Trump team to make sure that we play her own words and that's what we have to do is we have to remind America exactly who she is I actually think that there's no way that America's going to vote for this we're already on a hangover from the Dei woke stuff we we tried it we went all in um I do think that the rest of the world is is kind of trying it in some forms and they don't like it either but we in America went all in in and I I think most people will say uh we got to turn back around this is this is a disaster she represents Sanctuary cities remember she uh pushed for that as attorney general in California and every possible crazy radical left uh gender ideology Dei um all of that stuff she not only Embraces but she's on video embracing and so I think her own words are going to Sinker her official nominating convention is next week in Chicago be sort of a 4-day infomercial for this newly minted ticket Harris and her running mate Tim Walls from Minnesota there are at least some expectations for some protests in the streets over the Israel issue the Democratic party has been somewhat fractured on certain foreign policy questions recently what is as best as you can tell what is the KLA Harris worldview on foreign policy because we haven't got en too many details from her really on on anything but particularly in this realm look she's not interested in in international policy she's not even really interested in domestic policy and I I say that honestly she is a master of democrat politics she's obviously climbed the ladder in a very rough way in California where it's all Democrats and she's been able to use sharp elbows and a you know Dei style reputation to say this is my turn and no one is going to challenge me now we have in California a system where the straight white guy straight white male at the top Gavin Nome is handing out little Dei jobs and creating this kind of dependency crumbs like to all the different groups I find it extremely condescending uh and I think they're going to have to justify that K's foreign policy I think the vice president's foreign policy is just going to be whatever the woke left mob within the Democratic party once so you see it playing out when it comes to Israel when it comes to the Palestinian territories and how she wants to approach you know the fact that we have Americans held hostage she doesn't talk about the Americans held hostage she doesn't talk about crushing Hamas the terrorist organization she never talks about Iran I I I'm just don't know how you talk about this issue unfolding in Israel if you don't talk about the fact that the Biden Harris Administration funded this they funded the war I'm sorry but they did billions of dollars in sanctions relief in credit and in cash to Iran and Iran then funded the houthis Hezbollah and Hamas those are just the facts and so you know when we talk to Arab Americans and Detroit or anywhere else we tell them what do you expect when you uh when you fund Iran they they agree they think that it's a terrible thing to fund Iran and they understand that there's now a war instead of peace that Donald Trump brought them and and we say very clearly Donald Trump brought Arab Israeli peace agreements Joe Biden KLA Harris brought war and hostages so kamla Harris is campaigning as the underdog she describes herself as the underdog based on what you said a few moments ago for now at least you agree with that let's now get way ahead of ourselves and talk about a hypothetical second Trump Administration uh there was a report out there that right around the time of the Republican convention in Milwaukee Trump had a few people on his short list for vice president and he called them one by one to tell them that they didn't get the job and then finally called JD Vance and said it's you uh and when he called Doug bergham who's the governor of North Dakota he'd been on the short list he reportedly referred to him as Mr secretary on the phone call sort of a wink at what a role might look like for governor berham in a trump term uh when you call President Trump does he ever refer to you as Mr secretary or anything like like that no he um look when when I talk to the president it's about you know things that are happening right now or politics Michigan Wisconsin um you know we're I know the media and you guys love to speculate about who's where and what's going to happen honestly we're totally focused on the campaign and anyone who's not focused on the campaign is not in the universe of talking to president Trump he doesn't do that he he's somebody who is uh not going to uh take kindly to someone trying to talk about some job or appointment or who's getting what he wants to literally focus on the the fight the daily fight do you speak with him pretty frequently about this stuff yeah I I don't ever talk about my conversations with the president but um suffice to say yes okay and let's say hypothetically because I can speculate um let's say hypothetically you were offered a highle position position again within his administration maybe even in higher level position um is that something that you would definitely accept you see more Public Service potentially in your future uh depending on the gig how would you feel about a senate confirmation process because you never keep your opinions to yourself you've said and tweeted some costic things that could become interesting in a senate setting um any do you ever ever think about that no I really don't um in 2013 I got cancer I got n hudkins lymphoma deadly cancer uh stage four and well I never want to go through it again well I thought it was the most miserable thing uh I am a better more comfortable human being because of cancer and what I mean by that is I don't really care what people think of me I know I'm a kind person I know I'm a generous person I love my family I love my friends and and that's what life is about for me is no regrets um if if you wake up every morning and you say to yourself you know did I make this world a little bit better uh am I kind am I um you know doing the right thing then I I think you sleep at night and so I'm really happy with uh life giving me another day every single day I'm cancer-free but um it's I think a something that your perspective changes so all in all um I'm G to live and fight and do exactly what I think is the right thing to do um I do love to hold reporters to account I think they dish out criticism all day and they freak out when you give them one piece of criticism they literally are babies about it and and I I enjoy that I actually enjoy showing their hypocrisy and watching them squirm because they're not held to account guy we see uh media constantly just saying their advocacy and pretending to be unbiased I actually think it's ruining democracy when we have a bunch of people who climb up on this mantle and say I'm the Arbiter of the truth I'm somebody who's uh going to call balls and Strikes and then they don't they are actually Advocates I think it's shameful and they should be called out I think that's speaking truth to power and uh if they're going to dish it out they should be able to take it and then lastly I'll just say um I believe President Trump is going to win and if president Trump wins this year he's also going to have uh a Republican Senate so he's going to have his choices get through on the on the confirmation hypothetical there let me ask you since since you brought this up and Matt had mentioned it in our introduction there was this little contoms uh back home in the last 24 hours Donald Trump did this lengthy interview or conversation with Elon Musk on Twitter or X and it went a couple hours uh I read that there were a million people who watched and leading up to it there's a lot of hand ringing uh in the in the American Press you saw someone on CNN expressing concern that Donald Trump would be able to say whatever he wanted to say um which is literally free speech and they were they were concerned about that um we had a Washington Post reporter ask the White House ask the press secretary at the White House could the president of the administration do anything to stop this conversation and then there was this missive this letter fired off by some EU you know commissar uh almost threatening sort of saber rattling about free speech and harmful content and that sort of thing surrounding this conversation the Trump campaign put out quite a statement in response to that EU official calling the EU broadly enemies of free speech do you agree with that yeah of course they they are enemies of free speech look what's happening um first of all two Americans talking about what's going on is uh talking about the the the election is all about freedom of speech if someone is going to try to have a chilling effect to say they shouldn't be able to speak freely because there's hate speech or misinformation first of all this misinformation nonsense um has got to stop it's not misinformation sometimes it's someone's opinion and the best way to confront something that you don't agree with is to speak out and give your facts and let people decide there should never be a government agency or entity deciding to stop dissent because they think they know what's right you know who does that China if the EU wants to have their own version of the internet like China they want to create a special internet where people don't have freedom of expression because they think that somehow it's it's a bad thing so the government is going to stop what's happening on the internet they are no different than creating a system like China and I think the eu's got to be very careful of what they're doing now we get that they don't have the same for uh you know freedom of of speech and First Amendment rights like America does but what they have done is interfere in our election by trying to have a chilling effect on what can be said and describing Donald Trump's policies as misinformation or bad or negative by doing that that's what Russia does with propaganda and so I I think that we're getting into this area and to the EU where uh Brussels and others are beginning to mimic some of the terrible systems that we've all in the west been calling out it's a wake-up call for Europeans to stand up and have their voices be heard and say this is unacceptable we're not going to follow the path of China or Russia and create this system the the governments and the entities of government in the in the European Union and throughout Europe are getting way too powerful and I think that's one of the um the Hallmarks of when the people have had enough they fight back and I'll finish with this um I'm sure we'll get into uh us German relations but we have to remember that the EU became weaker and smaller with brexit because they couldn't get their rules-based system down their reaction to immigration and their lack of their willingness to really tackle legal versus illegal immigration and have rules and enforce the rules that created a system where they're smaller and weaker today we don't want to see that and so I think it's a reminder to all of the governments within Europe that that they've got to be more for the people and not have this power uh attit ude that somehow they know what's best and they're going to create an internet where uh government and big Elites decide what's safe and what's not safe so you mentioned China Russia Germany I hope to get to all three at some point let's start with Germany where you had your post you spent your time in Berlin um how do you see the US German relationship uh evolving or devolving or however you want to describe it over time since you left Berlin and and what would the folks in Berlin be wise to start thinking about more seriously if in fact you're right and Trump's going to win look um the the Germany is an amazing country I love it very much and I have so many friends there um the German business Community is most like the American Business Community there's no other two countries that are most alike if you take any large German base company Lanza has 15,000 American employees BMW um you know dler uh buer all of these great German companies have massive numbers of Americans who work for them so in many ways you can't really pull them apart you can't really say one's a German company and and one's not um and that's the argument that so many of the German CEOs made me during the Trump Administration is to say look we're we're we're acting like one German CEOs will unequivocally tell me uh we don't like what's going on in German government we want them to mind their own business but we're afraid of them because they're vindictive and so you've got a German business Community that's very nervous I don't think it's that dissimilar from the American Business Community many American employe uh employers are afraid of the American government we got to stop that I think we've got to have a healthy um private sector that creates the jobs and that the government is not trying to to push back but just take the the top issues that I faced in Germany uh for president Trump one was Iran sanctions and we went through all of the German uh companies and just said you we're not telling you that you you you know can't do business in a certain place but we are telling you that you're not going to be able to do business in Iran and in the United States you got to choose one and every single one of them said hey we're we're choosing the United States so they would stop doing business in Iran they didn't like it the media complained they thought that I was heavy-handed because I was trying to squeeze Iran from getting money I think we were right I think the German business Community uh needs to recognize the German government and Europeans that it was the right thing to do to squeeze Iran and to make them a pariah an international Pariah and to not give them money look what they've done they've created this massive war when they got money so we were right on that the second uh issue that we faced was nordstream 2 and you can go back and look I was pretty mocked by the German media for being too belligerent about nordstream to and you know I was direct I'm always direct but I'm a nice guy never mean-spirited and just am direct and what we said was to the Germans um this not a good idea you're going to allow Russia to leverage Over You by having nordstream I and you know for whatever reason Merkel trying to avoid the the green party um she triangulated on those issues she decided to take up all of the green party issues on energy and locked Germany into a really bad position where they needed this nordstream 2 pipeline from Russia and Merkel would say you know you Americans don't understand our relationship with Russia we can control them we have a different relationship with them and she was wrong about that and you know they acknowledge that they got it wrong do you think or I mean first of all not enough not directly uh some are saying you know we got a different policy now and that's the most that they would go to but I think it's really important to tie this in is that you know Chancellor Merkel begged president Trump to drop the Trump sanctions on Putin's pipeline the nordstream 2 pipeline we had sanctions on it it never became operational under the Trump Administration we were adamant and we took a lot of hits from the media for being mean-spirited about this even from the US media Merkel kept pushing and we kept saying no when Joe Biden came into office Joe Biden and KLA Harris were lobbied by Chancellor Merkel and she made the argument drop these sanctions uh let's let's get the sanctions dropped on nordstream 2 because it's it's not good it's not going to be helpful if you go back and I keep trying to push reporters to do this and so far I haven't seen anyone do it but if you go back to that conversation in the Senate and you you pick up the floor speeches of democrat Senators who are talking about why they're dropping the nordstream 2 sanctions the theme is because this is going to be bad for our relations with Russia this is sticking them in the eye it's inevitable what are we doing that we need to listen to our partners why aren't we treating our allies better it's all of that it's a mess when they dropped those sanctions on nordstream Two And they gave Putin his pipeline he saw weakness I have been arguing that it is worse than Afghanistan most of people will say Afghanistan was the moment that that people saw the Biden flop on Afghanistan was the moment that so many people said you know the world sees Joe Biden is weak I don't think so I think Putin saw the dropping of nordstream 2 sanctions Merkel getting her gift of dropping the sanctions I believe that that was the moment that he that Putin decided I'm going to go into Ukraine now is my time it's Joe Biden and Merkel all over again like Obama and Merkel and now is my time and I just say to my friends in Europe just look back you mocked us on nordstream 2 you mocked us on Iran sanctions you mocked us on the 2% for paying the NATO share those were the three issues that they mocked Donald Trump the most they were resistant they were wrong on all three of those and I would argue we have a massive war in Europe with no end in sight because of those mistakes okay so let's talk about that War uh Trump when he's asked about it his line typically is well it never would have happened if I were president he obviously believes that I think you believe that as well some people may not be as sold but that's his first line but the second question would be okay well then what he said well I would get it resolved very quickly yeah he does he says he won't just do it he'll be very quick yeah um what does that look like exactly what would Trump policy visa Ukraine look like on day one or first 100 days of a new Administration well first of all you'll just have to forgive me because I'm a little bit like annoyed that I have to answer questions about how are you going to get us out of these wars we didn't have the wars under Donald Trump and so now what you're asking me is how do you dig out Biden and Harris after they've literally ruined two parts of our world with massive Wars now what are you going to do and then everybody holds us to say well that's not a very good idea like yeah uh we got but he wants power we've got we've got bad bad you know idea and a terrible idea and you're asking me to choose so I'm a little bit annoyed that I'm now having to bail out Joe Biden and K Harris here to say what would you do first of all we wouldn't be in this mess because of the credibility of Donald Trump there is a difference between a threat and a credible threat there's a very big difference Donald Trump has a credible threat uh I remember one time speaking with Chancellor Merkel where she said to me you know the problem with your president is that I can't figure him out we just don't know what he's going to do next and I can remember sitting there thinking don't smile too much because this is an amazing moment and I said you know Madam Chancellor with all due respect we in America love this because we want people to not be able to predict us because that is a credible threat whether it's a credible threat of sanctions a credible threat of isolation or a credible threat of a military AC action I think it's really important to be able to have that credibility Donald Trump has that credibility people know when he says things he means it so when he says to two sides no matter what the issue of war or car tariffs or anything when he says you better figure it out are there going to be consequences everyone knows that's not a white paper to the Secretary of Treasury to come up with some ideas for in three months that means tomorrow morning there's something then and it's also not Joe Biden saying don't right that's a non-credible threat clearly because he said don't a lot yeah then people did yeah so so the reality is is that the president is going to solve it fast because he's going to say to both sides knock it off we've got to solve this and if you don't there are going to be consequences everybody knows that's going to happen the next day consequences are coming they're going to be terrible and they're going to be quick consequences for the Russians and for the ukrainians yeah of course the main look um I'll just give you an example when Pastor Brunson was held against his will in turkey and we tried at different levels to get Pastor Brunson returned when it bubbled up to the to president Trump picked up the phone and he called president erdogan and he said return Pastor Brunson by tomorrow or I'll ruin your economy people knew he was serious there were going to be some actions immediately that would do something to the economy and so Pastor Brunson was returned the next day and so I I I think that that people understand the credible threat and you know what I love about President Trump's credible threats is that he does them to keep peace and I've talked about this before but you know peace through strength we hear about that all the time but peace through strength is the Anthem and the success story of the state department not the Pentagon not just the Pentagon of course we need a very strong military that has behind us that threat but when you have peace through the threat it's because there were diplomats that were there to push through and have a peaceful negotiation now we have to do them together but too many times in America we just reflexively go to the Pentagon and we ignore the state department we close embassies we evacuate people this is this this Administration the Biden Harris Administration has evacuated more embassies than any other president in the history of the world it's terrible and I know too many career Foreign Service officers who want to solve problems they don't want to be evacuated they want to be there and they want to do the work work and so we've got to be able to do that and and we need tougher diplomats we need the state department to be in the game and what does that look like when it comes to Ukraine because a lot of ukrainians don't want to give any concessions to the Russians the Russians started this it's a war of aggression uh I think a lot of people from the outside want the war of course to end there's been a lot of dying the Russians at the very least would probably need some sort of fig Leaf to feel like they've gotten something out of it if they're willing to uh sort of end this horrible misadventure that they started what could that what would the Contours of that sort of look like conceivably I'm this is the first time someone's everever asked me a question about how do you know here here's a question on Ukraine and it's more about peace usually they say well how do you feel about more funding for the war and I'm like that's the question either I have to be can answer that too though I either have to be for more funding or not for funding look I'm a 12E uh State Department person you're you're not going to hear me talking about uh acting like I'm part of the Pentagon I don't want War I don't want to fund War let's let other people answer the question about funding War I believe the president of United States needs to have two strong voices sitting in front of him or her when when they're in the Oval Office one is the military side the Pentagon the other is the diplomacy is you know great this is Let's Be Prepared at the Pentagon but not now let's we've got some other things to do first and and you have to have a very tough mean Secretary of State who is saying wait like someone who's direct might describe himself as direct but but but my point is is that that right now we have a secretary of state that will tell you that culinary diplomacy is how everything starts and if you look at his social media feed he's he's doing things that you're you're just like do you not realize that there are two Wars and this goes to the point where know we heard from the Biden team including Anthony blinkin for at least 30 days before the Ukraine war the Russians are coming the Russians are going to invade the Russians are coming I find it to be really immoral that the Secretary of State who has his own plane when he heard absolutely the Russ Russians are coming to invade in Ukraine into into Europe we know they're coming we have evidence the Russians are coming the Russians are coming why didn't he get on the plane and go gather all of the foreign ministers in Europe and get to Moscow and say no let's try something the same thing with Israel when you know that there's a crisis you've got to be there to solve it but you look and you know Anthony blinkin goes every once in a while to the region and has another meeting and then it's a failure I I just feel like we got to have somebody who's much more direct who talks about the consequences and maybe it's because he's got Joe bid and K Harris that are not that serious and that's the problem as well but I I want to see more action when it comes to peace deals and and you know trying to solve things peacefully okay another way to come at the Ukraine question is through NATO um you talked about the minimum you know spending requirements and commitments that was a theme for uh president Trump candidate Trump president Trump uh is that going to again come to the for do you think where you know NATO allies a lot of them have now you know reached that level is that maybe something he's going to bang on again well look they're they're all not there on their 2% and and as as we've always said 2 % is the floor not the ceiling um and I think we could get into uh I'm G to get myself into trouble here but we could get into the the claim that the Germans are paying 2% I don't believe that they are if you look at those numbers spending on climate change is not part of your defense there's a whole bunch of things in there that are not legitimately spent and even though NATO said oh yes we can kind of see way that this is going to to be bent into your spending you think it's fudged of course yeah I mean look I know it's fudged because um I sat and listened to Merkel and she said we there's it's impossible for us to do it until 2030 and then all of a sudden with Joe Biden it was just like oh we've achieved it in 2024 it's like really because Merkel was telling us that it was going to take another six years uh and the Socialists who are in charge suddenly were like yep we did it here's the numbers let's move on we got the 2% so I I just I feel like my friends in the Press Corps in in Europe and in Germany need to dig into those numbers uh but it's a long answer for your point of yes they are increasing their defense spending thank God we we have to constantly remind people that the American uh national debt is $35 trillion think about that $35 trillion and we've got countries in Europe that keep expanding the NATO tent and say saying let's have this country come in and let's have that country come in I just don't believe that we should be expanding NATO at all until every single member current member is paying at least 2% and fully on board with the the current threats so you think the recent NATO expansion in Scandinavia was a bad idea yes I would not have let any country I would have advise the president to say don't let any country in that uh that expands the umbrella when the current ones are not paying their fair share why do that to the American people why expand the tent and make the American people pay even more I think about my mom who is uh worked her whole life small pension on Social Security uh doing great but you know she's not wealthy and I have to say do we need to take more from my mom to allow another country to have the umbrella uh when you know I look and and all of the things that we're spending on and I I say no I don't think it's fair on the umbrella do you believe President Trump would be absolutely committed to the Article 5 requirements look you know we get this question all the time and I know where it comes from is is is the question that was asked of him uh you know we only talk about the answer very few people go back to the question the question that president president Trump was asking was answering was this what would you say to countries who signed the whales pledge in 2014 to pay 2% but then said no we're not going to do it that there's only one answer if a country literally says we know what the what the rules are but we're going to break the rules and there's nothing you can do about it that was the hypothetical question um my second part is just to Simply say we know exactly what Trump is going to do with NATO because we saw it for four years he didn't leave NATO he made NATO stronger I could sit here and argue that the person who cares more about an organization is the one who wants to fix it get it focused and give it more money and that's exactly what president Trump did he said look it's not great right now you're not focused on the the current threats and and let's get the capabilities issues uh sorted out and and you know the capabilities is is how the 2% is I mean some people don't quite understand but it's it's to be honest it's kind of like a wedding registry you uh NATO puts out what they need for a war potential war and countries sign up and say yeah we're capable we can do this we'll bring this to the war we'll bring this to the wedding but you got to bring your gift you can't just say uh we think you deserve a toaster and so I'll get that toaster later sting in the shopping cart yeah exactly you you've got to actually show up and be able to bring the toaster and so on the capabilities front I think we've got to be very real about who is signing up and are they act actually capable of bringing what they say that they were going to bring and then on on the other issue that President Trump I think was completely focused on was the current threat you know cyber is a big threat right now there's so many other issues and do we think that NATO is is ready to tackle all threats and I think that's a question based on your answer a moment ago my guess is you'd be pretty hard no on expanding NATO to include Ukraine because that's a conversation that of course some people have been having yeah um look that I mean these are difficult uh you know discussions and certainly you're going to have to look at all of these issues um what I've looked at for Ukraine I have not talked to president Trump this is just my personal opinion um when you look at Minsk or Minsk 2 um there are some good elements in there but they uh obviously it fell short it collapsed because the Russians uh signed up and obviously weren't that serious about their commitments and so you're going to have to have an enforcement mechanism you're going to have to look at um you know all of the issues but I I think that in Minsk there was this kind of good concept that we should build upon which is territorial Integrity with autonomous zones autonomous regions I think that's a creative way um obviously it's about enforcement and it's about the details but I think that's a good start for an off-ramp potentially diplomatic off-ramp yeah you need look the diplomats need to be talking about this issue more than a year ago the Chinese came up with a um a peace plan and I'm very clear ey about China but that peace plan was decent and it should have been part of a discussion immediately it wasn't perfect I wouldn't have accepted it but it was a good start and even zelinsky's first words about it I saw this within the hour of the peace plan being um announced his first words were wow the Chinese believe in territorial Integrity for Ukraine uh he wanted to engage on that and the White House was like no be quiet War more funding for war and you know it's all this war talk and I just thought wow the diplomats have completely been shoved off the stage and if I were a European I'd be furious because they're playing with war in my neighborhood and it's all the only discuss we're talking about is how much more money are you going to give to keep this war going and there's no one who is being belligerent about a peace plan we need that clear eyed on China is what you just said what does that mean from a US EU perspective uh when you were in Berlin I mean you could sometimes look around and see I would imagine a lot of folks maybe not that serious about threat from China there's some of that in the US as well although there's some I'd say by partisanship that's growing on that question have you seen the EU moving in a positive or negative Direction in your view when it comes to China because everyone's of course immediately focused on Russia and Ukraine that makes sense the Middle East as well but there's this looming yeah China issue I think I think it's a perfect way to say it it's looming um I mean because I was acting dni um I'll I'll say it this way I don't let Tik Tok in my house if you've got Tik Tock I make you leave it outside my house I've seen what happens so it's really hard to tell people who don't have the same threat or feel the same threat um why they should be vigilant um but I I think that there's a variety of things that we can do peacefully as allies Western allies to come together to uh blunt the Communist tactics that China pushes forward and that requires all of us acting together and I think that you kind of referred to this that on both sides of the Atlantic we have uh Skeptics and people who want to engage certainly there's a lot of companies that want to make money and they think this is a great big huge uh operation and and we should allow that to happen but uh I think I think the overwhelming evidence is that you know they haven't China hasn't been a great member of the WTO it it hasn't worked out we engaged them and said hey why don't you come into the WTO because we thought we would see greater respect for human rights and democracy and the rule of law and all that and and by all measures it's gotten worse and so I think we've got to join hands and take tackle this together I have heard through some of my European friends that uh they're nervous about uh if the Trump Administration comes in again in and there's too much uh negotiation on car tariffs and other issues that somehow they're going to think that their future lies with with China rather than the West I I think obviously that's a terrible read uh Europe and America should always be together we should be reflexively Western and I believe that that requires the Europeans to get more serious about being reflexively West I think there's a lot of work that has to be done there so in the time that we have left I have two more questions and they're pretty broad so feel free to go wherever you want with them number one I know that you speak on a regular basis with world leaders heads of state that sort of thing uh I'd imagine you have conversations that go something like this if Trump wins again and he's president again what should I do to prepare myself my country for what the world will look like under American leadership with Donald Trump at the helm broad Strokes what is the advice that you would give generically whether it's you know mcon go down the list yeah I I think it's pretty simple uh and I do get this question a lot not just from world leaders but from all sorts of people and the media constantly asking what what is the world going to be like if Trump wins I push back and I just say you know you saw him for four years I believe that when America puts itself first that the world benefits because we are not a nation that conquers and takes we are a nation that establishes rule of law respect democracy capitalism those rules are what everybody wants they don't always abide by them but those are the international rules that are the best that make the best system and so I'm really proud of America when we put ourself first because we establish rules that benefit everybody else America First doesn't meet America alone it means we create a system that's fair and then there's kind of the Coalition of the Willing on different issues and uh I I believe that that world leaders know that they want that um I've been in tens of thousands of diplomatic meetings I spent eight years at the UN 193 countries uh are at the UN and when I when you're there for eight years with 193 countries you watch how China negotiates and Russia negotiates and the Latins and the Africans and you really get a great lesson every single country puts itself first first and in a diplomat diplomatic meeting every single country asks the United States to do something every single time and so we have to recognize that if we don't put ourselves first we're the only country that doesn't we shouldn't apologize for that we do have to articulate when we put ourselves first why that benefits the world I believe it does and I believe the arguments can be made and so finally sort of on that theme your answer back is oh well don't think too hard about Trump 2.0 because you've seen Trump 1.0 for four years but I think most people understand if Trump wins It'll be such a dramatic departure in a lot of ways from Biden and Harris but will there be noticeable differences between the first Trump Administration and the second one in terms of policy in terms of priorities in terms of personnel well of course during Personnel you know people will be different just because because the timing is different but um I I think you know exactly who Donald Trump is he's somebody who doesn't like War doesn't want war puts America First wants to talk about economic uh growth and prosperity when I did uh Kosovo Serbia negotiations what the president said to me is don't do politics talk about economic growth this is what's going to keep people in the region this is what's going to create jobs well good paying jobs for young people this is the hope that they need need and so when I got the two sides together I said look let's let's brainstorm here how do we move things together but every single time you bring up something that is political I'm going to reject it and I'm going to say nope that's politics we don't need to sit around and try to get two countries to like each other this whole idea this is very controversial the Europeans love to put all of their eggs in one basket about Mutual recognition between Koso and Serbia why do we care if they mutually recognize each other really honestly if you don't like me or I don't like you we should demand that you have open borders and what I mean by economic borders not open borders but uh a an economy that is free flowing across borders say it that way and and growth and capitalism and that you you try to get to the point where you have fair trade and I think that that creates the system of teaching people maybe it's going to take five years maybe 10 years maybe 20 years to begin to say oh I'm trading with these people and and I have a good life and I don't have to hate them simply because I was told to hate them and and these are difficult issues to do in Kosovo and Serbia and I've said to my friend on both sides look I get my family was not impacted like your family I get that I'm going to sound very insensitive when I say Don't Look Backwards look forward and talk about the economic growth I get that you're looking at me and you say you don't know you you haven't been impacted I totally understand that but you have to understand that I have a little value in trying to get you to look to the Future because your kids don't want to just sit around and talk about Mutual recognition and politics they want to know that they can stay here because there's a good job and they're going to have a family here and you're going to get to see your grandkids because they didn't move to Germany or Hungary or Poland and so what I tried to do is to say to people you got to reject this NGO class that wants white papers and mutual recognition and you know sitting around a table and fighting about words no that's not important what is important is getting people on a path so that they have jobs good paying jobs and and are prosperous and safe and that was that is I think the theme of what Donald Trump wants to do and that's what the vision of President Trump's second term uh God willing that he's elected and implements those policies again Mr Ambassador thank you thank you very much thanks Guy