Tomi Adeyemi and Vanessa Le: My Heritage Is My Weapon

>> Robin Dale: So welcome to Room 204 at the Library of Congress National Book Festival. I'm Robin Dale. I'm the deputy librarian for collections and services at the library. And on behalf of all of us at the library, we're really thrilled you're here this year. I hope you're all ready to talk heritage, horror, fantasy, human rights, and much, much more over today's events. Many of our excellent young adult and middle grade writers are appearing on this stage today, and later today, we will switch to adult nonfiction and poetry with topics like cultural criticism, diplomacy, and nature poetry. We do hope that you'll visit us at the Library of Congress on Capitol Hill, and whether it's to research about subjects in our reading room, or visit the beautiful Jefferson Building, or attend one of our Live at the Library events, which are Thursday nights events where we keep the library open until 8:00 at night, and we present dynamic free programming for people to enjoy. You can also be a part of helping us produce these free events, such as this festival or Family Day, by joining the friends of the library. Just this week, the friends helped bring a really exceptional group of 19 people from around the world to the Library of Congress to really discuss services for the blind and print disabled in communities in their countries. Your support extends the reach of the library and allows all people everywhere to benefit. So to consider becoming a friend and find out more, please visit loc.gov/donate. So we're going to start off the day today. I know you're all really excited. I've been seeing you having conversations and waving at our authors already. So we're going to start off today with two writers who will discuss the role that heritage plays in their fantasy worlds. I'm really honored to be able to introduce Tomi Adeyemi, and she is named one of Time magazine's 100 Most Influential People. [Applause] She is a Hugo and Nebula Award winning Nigerian American writer and storyteller. After graduating from Harvard University, she studied West African mythology, religion and culture in Salvador, Brazil. Adeyemi's "Children of Blood and Bone" and its sequel debuted at number one on the New York Times bestseller list. [Applause] Her legacy of Orisha trilogy is being developed into a feature film. [Applause] And her latest book, "Children of Anguish and Anarchy," concludes the legacy of Orisha trilogy. I'm also very honored to introduce Vanessa Le. [Applause] Vanessa graduated from Brown University with a degree in Health and Human Biology and is a current medical school student. Her writing is an expression of her love for medicine and her Vietnamese heritage. When not writing, she was wishing she was writing, studying medicine, or spoiling her two Shiba Inus. Her debut novel is "The Last Blood Carver." [Applause] And finally, I'm honored to introduce our moderator, Christine Bollow. [Applause] And she is the co-owner and director of programs for Loyalty Bookstores, a black, Asian and queer owned bookstore in Washington, D.C. [Applause] So please enjoy the festival and let's welcome them to their conversation. [Applause] >> Christine Bollow: Tomi and Vanessa, hi. >> Vanessa Le: Hi. >> Christine Bollow: Okay, before we start, are you guys-- How are you guys feeling? Are you guys doing good? >> Vanessa Le: I feel excited. Yeah? >> Yeah. Solid. >> Vanessa Le: Yeah. >> Christine Bollow: So my heritage is my weapon. I'm not going to lie. Okay. I'm Filipino. I'm not going to lie. The first thing I thought when I saw this, the title and the topic for today was, these are the Thais that killed Magellan. [Laughing] So, you know, that was my first thought. What were you thinking about when you first heard this topic? Like, how do you think of your heritage being your weapon, whether it's you as an author or perhaps the characters from the books? >> Vanessa Le: Personally, I wrote this book because I was feeling lost from my heritage. So to be able to make that journey back to it through writing the book and then having it in this panel be considered my weapon, has been incredibly affirming for me because I'm Vietnamese American. You know, I grew up in a very white city, Portland, Oregon, and what I would consider a cultural island. So to feel that sense of like, I don't really have a heritage to be able to write about that in my own very personal way, and then to use that to you know, quite frankly, enter the publishing world this year has been, you know, super reaffirming and just I think it is a privilege that a lot of authors like us didn't have five, ten years ago to be able to write about our heritage and have it be a weapon. So that in and of itself has been incredibly empowering. >> Vanessa Le: I love that. Sometimes I forget I'm on stage. [Laughing] So I'm like, oh, that was so great. It's a funny title, I think. Or it's not a funny title. It's a powerful title. I think for me it makes me laugh because if you had asked me that a couple of years ago when, like "Children of Blood and Bone" first came out, I feel like my answer would have been similar. I'm Nigerian American. I was the first one in my family born here. And when I'm trying to describe the first gen experience to people who aren't first gen, I'm like, well, you're wherever your parents came from, that's what it's like inside your house. And then whatever you look like, that's what it's like outside your house. So I was like, inside my house, I was a Nigerian. Outside of my house, I was black. And when I was writing Children of Blood and Bone, when I discovered the Orisha in Bahia, Brazil, it was like I describe it as like flying halfway around the world to discover treasure in my own backyard. Like it's-- Oh, yeah. Do we have. Okay, okay. Yes. [Applause] It was so empowering. And it was just like a journey of, of climbing up my ancestral, like DNA and story and blood and lineage and now that the trilogy is complete, it's like I don't just see that in the story. It's like, I know we mentioned the movies. It's like seeing a 3D rendering of the world and seeing, like, my late grandfather's name or like my late uncle's name. It's so powerful. But now it's not just in the story. It's like in my life, it's in my daily life. So it's like someone, like, cuts you off and you're like, I'm going to send my grandmother to fight your grandmother on the other side. And you're like, don't do that. Let's be peaceful. Have a great day, grandma. But like, I think that way. So it's that's why I was laughing because it doesn't just feel after living it with it for so many years, exploring it in a fictional setting, now it feels more a part of me and a part of just the daily act of being alive. And it's a very enriching and refreshing human experience. >> Christine Bollow: I love that, thank you. You know, there's there's this line in The Last Blood Carver where I'm going to just paraphrase, but, you know, "Surely he didn't see heart soothing the same way she did. How could he understand that it was her connection to her lost family, a culture she'd never had the privilege of knowing." And that really, that really hit me, you know, and I, I know for myself, connecting, reading books is a lot of how I connect to my own heritage, my own culture. Is there something when you were writing the book that really stood out to you of like, you know, you just kind of, like, dropped in and felt that connection to your ancestors, to your family or something, something in the book that really hit, you know, hits you in that moment. >> Vanessa Le: Yeah. So a little bit of context and I don't mean to get all serious, but basically, I wrote this story because during the pandemic, my grandmother was, she had dementia. And then she, basically, my family here in the United States is my grandma, my grandmother's generation, and then my mom and my dad. So a lot of my connection to Vietnam was just through my grandmother. She, you know, spoke the language. She was the one that taught me the language. But then as she had dementia, you know, a lot of those connections, well, she was forgetting them, so I was losing them as well. So when I wrote this book, it was just a lot about of the frustration and grief of not being connected in a in a way that I used to be or wanted to be to my culture, and having to lose that really strong thing that, you know, bonded me as well as losing a person, you know, because this story is about grief and it's about long, long grief. I think a lot of people call dementia the longest goodbye. So to circle back to your question, a moment that I really dropped in was a moment, not to spoil the book for those who haven't read it, but a moment where she is able to finally understand why her grandmother taught her, you know, the magic system which is called heart soothing, the way that her grandmother taught her. And the magic is very much an analogy for culture in my book. You know, it's passed down from generation to generation, and it's not quite seen as-- To her, it's healing, to everyone else in the world, it's harming. So for her to be able to reconnect with her magic system was very much just me writing in myself, reconnecting, reconnecting with my culture. And I'll be very honest, the moment this book came to me was when I was writing-- I was watching a trailer, a Disney trailer for Raya and the Last Dragon, and it was the first Southeast Asian, not even specifically Vietnamese. It was like a conglomerate of things. But it was the first Southeast Asian Disney princess. And then I remember watching that trailer and I was like, oh my gosh, she looks like my mom. So I was like, that's so crazy that that's a thing now. So I wrote that moment of realization into my book where I was like, oh, I'm seeing myself for the first time in a place I have never seen myself before. So that translated over, hopefully to the novel. [Applause] >> Christine Bollow: Yeah, both of you have such fabulous characters, like, just, you know, the kind of characters that are going to stay with you long after reading them. For both of you, was it character first? Was it story first? What was that first kernel of inspiration? >> Tomi Adeyemi: Yeah. For me, it was, it was the world first. It's a very like, I guess everything in my head that's synonymous with childhood is Disney Channel. So it was a very Disney Channel like moment of being in Salvador, Brazil. This was the year, the summer after I graduated from college, and I had gotten like a travel grant to go to a place. I wrote the proposal. I was like, okay, I want to study. I want to visit the Museum of Afro-Brazilian History of Slavery in Bahia, Brazil. And this was a big deal for me because, like, I didn't even leave my room to like, go outside, like I ordered Domino’s. I watched Avatar: The Last Airbender, the anime. I was like, I don't go outside, but I was like, I want to go to Brazil. And mostly I just wanted to go to Brazil. But I was like, the research reason I want to go, the reason I want you to give me money to go is because Brazil has-- It's almost the most interesting parallel to the United States, because during the Middle Passage, they brought over about ten times as many slaves as the United States. And so I just saw these very interesting parallels between African American identity and what was then the emerging Afro-Brazilian identity, and also very similar problems with like institutionalized racism, police brutality, like very, very similar colorism. But they were different because the way the black identity was treated or categorized was different. So in my head I was like, there's a story to be told. There's these two sisters separated by the slave trade. One ends up in America, one ends up in Brazil. Through generations, their daughters rise and become the queens. And like this. This was in my head. And I was like, I can do this. And I knew I couldn't do it, but I was like, I can write a proposal to do it. And I got it. So I got to go to Brazil. I'm going to this museum. It's the crux of my entire proposal. It's closed for renovations. [Laughter] And I distinctly remember, like me talking to the guard. I don't speak Portuguese. He doesn't speak English. But I was like, I can't give this money back. I already had corn on the beach and I was like, I won't touch anything. But like, I signed a contract and he's like, no, no. So I don't know if it was the same day or like two days later, but I'm in Bahia, Brazil. I'm kind of freaking out because I don't know what to do. It's raining really hard, which is so interesting. I've told this story a couple of times, but I was just like, oh, rain! Oh yeah! Ha! It all connects. But it was raining really hard. I didn't have like locks at the time, so I couldn't get my hair wet. So I duck into this gift shop. It's like the size of this stage. And the gift shop owner is kicking out people who are there to avoid the rain. So I'm like, oh. Like really just really taking my time. And then I see these four ceramic plates and I didn't know what I was looking at. But there was this like, like beautiful goddess, like, commanding the sea. She had, like, dark skin, though. She had skin like mine. It's actually very similar to-- when you're describing Raya and you're like, whoa, she looks like me. I was like she was commanding the seas. It was watercolor, so there was no face. But I was like, her skin is like mine. And she's so divine. I think Oshun was there. This beautiful just figure and all this yellow and swirls. There was like ochosi. He had like the arrow and green. There was Shango. He was like big, powerful, dark skinned, red. And in my head I was like, this is African, the Last Airbender. [Laughter] And you're like, why does it all come back to that? Because all my childhood was just like, make out with her, make out with her and who, obviously zutara. But still. Thank you. It's nice to be seen. It's nice to be among my people. That was just all my childhood, and I saw that in it. I never even considered that there could be, like, black gods and goddesses or African gods and goddesses. So it really was this, like Big Bang in my head, and it just-- And I saw the world of Orisha, and I saw like the giant lions, and I saw the battle and I saw the magic. It took me like eight months before I discovered who the characters were in the world, but it came to me instantly. It was like a whole theme park, and I was like, okay, I don't know what's going to happen here, but it's ripe for adventure. And like, I'm still living in the ripple of that moment. It's gone beyond from like seeing the first map and the first two books to like the map and the third book to like again, I know I keep coming back to it, but like seeing a drone digital rendering to seeing like production artists create and then being like, oh, this is not. And I was like, I want that right now. So insane to me because it is the big bang. I'm like, this universe keeps expanding from this one fated moment and a gift shop in Brazil, when I was trying not to get my hair wet. Like that's wild. So yeah, that was a Disney Channel moment. >> Christine Bollow: I love that. Yeah. I'm just so proud. I'm so proud of you both. [Applause] Vanessa, I know Raya was like that moment where you kind of-- It sparked things, but for you, was it character first? World first story? >> Vanessa Le: So actually, Raya came out when I was in college, and I had stopped writing in college because I was like, oh, I got to study pre-med. I got to focus. I got to lock in. But then the trailer came out, and then the pandemic happened, and suddenly I had a lot of free time. But when I started getting back into writing, when I wrote-- Let me backtrack. When I wrote in high school, I would write, you know, European fantasies and a lot of mythological retellings of, like, Greek myths, because Percy Jackson and all the fantasies that I read back then were very European. And then in college freshman year, before I decided that I wasn't going to write anymore, I took a fiction workshop, and my professor gave me the one piece of advice that I follow to this day. He took me aside, and he was like, you know, all your pieces that have a woman as the main character rather than a man like resonated with me a lot more. And I think it's because you write better when you write close to home. And keep in mind these are like white women because I didn't know, like I could write an Asian woman. I didn't know that was allowed. But then I watched Raya and, you know, I actually I love the movie. I think it was great, but I was like, I can make this more specific to me, and I think I can do it better. So then I started writing, you know, Vietnamese high fantasy. But then I was like, you know, this is not me either. I'm not Vietnamese-Vietnamese. I'm not from Vietnam. I'm from America, I'm Vietnamese American. So I think with each book that I wrote thereafter, it got a little bit closer and closer to who I am. In The Last Blood Carver, the main character, Nika, is the daughter of immigrants. So she is, you know, the closest thing you can get to me and she was what came to me first. Not in the sense that, you know, she was the person that she was in the novel now, but in the sense that, oh, I need to write a daughter of immigrants. I can't keep writing about, you know, a fantasy about a country that, frankly, I've never been to. You know, I need to write about America, but I need to write about America that is, you know, very Asian America, basically. But the other thing that came to me with this novel was I was writing some other book, and I was writing some weird magic system, and I was like, I don't really know why I'm writing this magic system. I feel like I should write something that I know. And then I read the fifth season by N. K. Jemisin and both her, you know, long form and her short stories feature science fantasy. And I had never even heard of science fantasy before her. I was mind blown, quite frankly, because I didn't know that science and fantasy were compatible, but the way she wrote it was just so natural. And she literally went to, I think, Hawaii to study volcanoes for her orogeny. And I was like, I'm studying medicine. Why don't I just write what I know? And so the magic system came to me as the very first spark, and I was like, you know, I learned about all these things in my classes. I might as well, you know, make use of my degree and, [Laughter] and, you know, put it somewhere. So then I wrote a character who is both a daughter of immigrants and someone who heals. And I thought, you know, that's the closest I can get to writing, you know, a self-insert who is, quite frankly, a lot bolder and a lot more clever than I am. But that's what spawned the book. >> Tomi Adeyemi: That's the best thing I've ever. I'm going to put this pre-med degree to use. >> Christine Bollow: I know. >> Tomi Adeyemi: Love that. >> Christine Bollow: And the magic system is so cool. Like your background and what you study. It really grounds the magic in the world and in the story. Okay, so we've got a duology. First book in a duology. We just finished a trilogy. How do you guys keep track of everything? Do you have a murder board? Do you have a binder? Like what-- [Laughter] Like how? Because my brain is, like, in awe. >> Tomi Adeyemi: I think I'm just sitting here so curious. And I'll just say it started in the very beginning, because it's like you guys were so supportive when I think Robin was doing our introductions. And then no one clapped after pre-med and I was like, wait, that's crazy. And so it just kept going. And so I've been fascinated ever since. So it's like, I really want to know how you keep this straight. I use post-it notes, colored post-it notes. I do have a murder wall. >> Amazing. >> Tomi Adeyemi: Everywhere I have ever lived, wall, no. Yeah. Everywhere I've ever lived over the past decade has a wall that is covered in different post-it notes. And it looks like that, that, like meme of, I think Charlie Sheen from It's Always Sunny and he's like-- and I know it's crazy. I'm used to it because it's just like me taking all of the categorizing the tornado in my mind and giving it order. So it makes sense to me. Like whenever a stranger or like anyone has come in to where I live and they usually swear. And then I go, oh, am I a genius? You know, because you're like, am I a mad genius? Thank you. [Laughter] And then someone will be like, and I'll be like, wait, no, don't look at that poster. No, because then you'll understand everything. And they're like, this makes no sense to me. So that's how I keep it all. And there should be something better. But I don't know what to do now because it's like I move places and like, now there's a new book that's on the wall, and I was like, I don't want to take. Oh, yeah. >> Christine Bollow: Yay! [Applause] Very exciting. >> Tomi Adeyemi: So yes, I don't know what to do. I was like, do I take the wall with me? I want a museum of all the walls, but I'll figure it out. >> Christine Bollow: Okay. Okay, we'll talk more. >> Tomi Adeyemi: We'll talk. We'll talk more. >> Christine Bollow: Vanessa, how about for you? >> Vanessa Le: Kind of similar, but all my stuff is online, so thankfully I don't have to move anything when I move. I don't know if I'm allowed to endorse anything, but, I mean, the program, I mean, it starts with N sounds like ocean and it's like, I think if that company went down, I would lose my entire career. Like everything is on there. I should back it up, but I don't. But I think the only way I can ever keep track of anything is my publishing team. Like, shout out to my publicist. She will email me. She's so on top of things. I like, forget about things a lot, and then she'll be like, just putting this at the top of your inbox. And I was like, thank you so much. That totally slipped my mind. But I think having that kind of, you know, support system, I'm sure you have a good team as well is the only way that I get anything done. >> Christine Bollow: I love that. Okay, just changing gears a little bit. Both of you have amazing book covers and amazing maps. I am like, a glutton for maps and books. And I love both of yours. Did you get to, like, talk with the illustrator about about the maps? You know, what was it? Yeah. What was the experience like as an author with the map making? >> Vanessa Le: Yeah. Go ahead. >> Tomi Adeyemi: I actually used a map making. It was a free one because we're not gonna do that. Anyway, I was like, I want to buy pizza. I want to buy shoes. I'm not going to do this. I'm like, anyway, since we're focused, I used a map making software online because I actually needed the map to visualize. I'm a very, very visual creator. I'm inspired. I mean, I told the thing. I was inspired by four ceramic plates, so it's like I'm inspired by visuals. The visuals help me see the world, and for me to keep it grounded, I need it to be real. So I actually made the map for myself. And then that carried through for the entire trilogy of me being like, oh well, this is what it looks like. And whether that was like a really detailed digital map or something like I literally drew four times and being like, I can't draw, but I believe in myself. And then you hand it to the team and the artist and then like one day you're looking at, you open this book cover and you're like, whoa. Because you're like, I literally just drew that. And now it's beautiful and in hardback and yeah. So it's a very, seeing the lifeline I think, of the map making process is always one of those most like wow moments for me because it is insane to open up something that you're like, this was just on like the four pieces of printer paper I stole, because I'm scared to own a printer, because I'm scared to run out of ink and paper and like, you know, so it's just. And now it's real. That's very wild for me always. >> Christine Bollow: I love that. >> Tomi Adeyemi: Yeah. >> Vanessa Le: I just want to say, Tomi, you have a future in standup comedy. [Laughter] >> Christine Bollow: Yes. >> Vanessa Le: You know, being a bestselling author doesn't work out for you. [Laughter] >> Tomi Adeyemi: I will take every diversified income stream made available to me. Thank you. >> Vanessa Le: But back to the map question. When I wrote the last blood cover, I, like, sketched out a map, and it was like, very, well, I didn't even sketch it out. I had it in my head. And then when they came back to me, so the way my map process worked is that after the cover, after a lot of things, they got me an artist. I loved my artist Chris Loke, and then she was like, can I have, you know, a sketch? And so I was like, oh, sure, I'll just sketch what's in my head. And then I sketched it out and I realized, like, nothing works in my book, like nothing works. >> Christine Bollow: How did they get from here to-- >> Vanessa Le: I was like, you can't come this way without going around the whole city, but. But then I had to change details in my in my story afterwards. But, you know, I just told her I was like, you know what? Prettiness trumps accuracy. >> Thank you. Thank you. [Laughter] >> Vanessa Le: Just make it look good and I'll fix the story. You do your art and I'll write around it. So because I loved her artwork so much, and, you know, she was just amazing. I was like, you just-- You do your vision. I'll copy that. And it turned out great. But now that I'm writing my second IP, I wrote, I drew up the map first. I was like, I was like, I'm putting down every coordinate so that's something I learned for if you're an aspiring writer who takes place in a city or even a kingdom, it's like, draw the map. Like make sure they're transiting through the right places. But you know, you can always change it because for me at least, the map came before copy edits and proofreading. So, you know, nothing is set in stone. >> Christine Bollow: Okay, I'm bisexual and I'm very thirsty. [Laughter] Okay. Just going to say it. We're among friends today. Both of you have very crashworthy characters. Let's just say. >> Tomi Adeyemi: Who is making you giggle like that? [Laughter] We all know the giggle. I was like, I just like, for data, for research, I want to know who made you do that. >> Christine Bollow: Well, I was thinking about which direction I was going to go with the question. Okay, I'm going to go this direction first and and then we'll switch back. >> Tomi Adeyemi: Okay. >> Christine Bollow: Who was one of your first or maybe like all time bookish crushes. And for me, I was giggling about Gilbert Blythe from Anne of Green Gables. [Laughter] >> Tomi Adeyemi: They're so specific. Oh, it was a book. That was anime. >> Christine Bollow: It's okay. It can be any form of media. >> Tomi Adeyemi: Okay, we're going to go three answers because I am-- >> Christine Bollow: This is a thirst positive. >> Tomi Adeyemi: I wanted to say I am divinely. I was like anointed. I was like, is that the proper use of anointed? No. Divinely appreciative of creatures and creations that stimulate intense emotion and desire. What a brilliant way to say thirsty? >> Christine Bollow: Yes. >> Tomi Adeyemi: So, to start from the book world, Kaz Brekker always wins. >> Christine Bollow: Oh, yes. >> Tomi Adeyemi: Yes. Yeah. That gets to you, Lee. I'm like, yes, may you, May you do that thing that you did on one like 154 because someone hurt me. I need a cancer, like that. I was like, yeah, so go CAS. And then in growing up, it was one of the captains. He was the vice-captain in like or the second lieutenant in bleach. This is so specific. But he had spiky green hair. This isn't me being dirty. I'm pretty sure this is true. He actually had a 69 tattooed on his face. I did not know what it meant. I was young, that's just how I can identify him. But he was a captain. And then I think Matthias, like the big strong arm guy, they both had fanfiction. I had bleach fiction. And my character, you know, she was with Matthias or Matteo, you know, he was silent, strong. Big magical arm of punching. He was like one punch man before. And then the bleach-- He was such a small character, but I was like, he had rizz, as they say. And I was like, we can do a whole side arc. >> Christine Bollow: I love it. >> Tomi Adeyemi: So yeah, I'll leave it there. And Zabuza from Naruto. >> Amazing. >> Yes. >> Christine Bollow: Vanessa. Any bookish crushes? >> Vanessa Le: Yeah. I mean, if my boyfriend is watching this. No. >> You're like, except you. >> Vanessa Le: You're my one true love. But if I have to be honest, I grew up-- Well, I grew up with Percy Jackson, so I feel like, like Annabeth Chase, Percy Jackson. You know, he fell into Tartarus for her. That's pretty romantic. So, you know, I got to say it. Yeah. >> Christine Bollow: I love it. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for indulging me. Okay. So now switching, talking about the characters, when you were writing the characters, do you do anything like, you know, any fun background stuff like astrology signs or, you know, anything that kind of helps you develop the character? Like maybe as an actor, you know, they work on the backstory. Anything that's helped you as an author with creating the characters in the background of them. >> Vanessa Le: You should answer this first. >> Tomi Adeyemi: I mean, I think we're similar in the sense of like you mentioned that like we write close to home. I write very close to home. Very close. Like so close, I'm like, why aren't people-- Actually, one person has finally said, what's wrong with you? And what happened to you when you were a child? And I was like, thank you. Actually. Thank you. I was like, these are clearly all my emotions. This is clearly just me. And she runs around hitting people with a staff and then ripping out souls and then stabbing people, you know? I was like, there's very little veiling. There's not even an attempted veiling. And so, yeah. But then they're like, come to my school and I'm like, okay/ [Laughter] Yeah, I really write close to home. And I take my emotions. I take my emotions. And it was interesting. I was talking to an actor like this last week and I realized like, oh my goodness. I used to think I wrote to isolate myself. I used to think I wrote because the world was too much. And now almost a decade into it, I was like, oh, I actually think you write to be known. I was like, I think you write so people know you're telling stories about what happened to you. Like, you might add some glitter with a ship battle and like, but you're like. And I did cut off her head metaphorically, you know, and so it's such a beautiful experience on the other side because it's like if you connected with any of my characters, you've connected with the deepest part of my emotions and my journey as a human. And it's funny. It's like I went from full introvert to like, extrovert. And now I delight in it because it's like, you know, like you were holding my book and I was like, oh my God, it's like you're giving me a hug. And I'm like, thank you. So, so yeah. >> Vanessa Le: Actually that really resonates with me because I feel like the exact same way. I, you know, it's basically when as an author, if you're writing close to home, you're taking parts of yourself, you know, that, frankly, you need therapy for, and then you're just like putting it in a book and you're making money off of it instead of spending money on it. [Laughter] But the scary thing, as a debut author, this is my first year. What I didn't anticipate was that people would read it, I guess, and then so I was like, oh my gosh, I put way too much of myself into this. Because every character, you know, even minor background characters, even the villain, I think is you have to put something of yourself in them. Especially the villain, if you're putting something, you know, true to yourself in them, you are addressing it throughout the narrative as well. So all the characters, you know, maybe I don't give them like a horological astrology signs, but I think they are very much a part of me. And that's, you know, I hope to become an extrovert like you are. Because right now I'm just like, oh my gosh. >> Tomi Adeyemi: Like a decade. >> Vanessa Le: Why? Why did I do that? But it's hopeful to hear that. Very hopeful. >> Tomi Adeyemi: No, you're doing amazing. >> Thank you. >> And you're a doctor. >> Vanessa Le: No. Not yet. Not yet. >> Tomi Adeyemi: You're a pre-- You're a future doctor. You're amazing. >> Christine Bollow: Yes. You're crushing it. Okay, so we are going to get to audience questions in about five minutes. Just making sure you all know, get those questions going. And we have two lines that will form at the two microphones. So just so you know. Okay. The the very wonderful Jason Reynolds, author extraordinaire, has said before, you have to breathe art in to breathe art out. And that's something that's always stuck with me since I first heard him say that. What is some art-- It can be anything. It can be reality TV. Like this is, you know, there's no judgment here. At least not for me. What's some art that you've been breathing in lately? >> Tomi Adeyemi: Ooh, I love that. Excited. >> Christine Bollow: Yes. >> Tomi Adeyemi: Okay, so I am currently binging Law and Order SVU. >> Christine Bollow: Ooh. All right. Love that. >> Tomi Adeyemi: It started randomly. It started from TikTok because someone would edit videos and they'd be like, great show, watch. And then you-- Anyway, I got to Hulu, started on the pilot episode. I'm now on season four. >> Christine Bollow: Wait, how many seasons are there? >> Tomi Adeyemi: 26. [Laughter] It's about 22 to 25 episodes, and it's amazing because every great actor like in one episode of season four, Viola Davis is playing a defense attorney and it's like, baby viola. And I was like, you didn't even know you would be Annalise Keating. You know, like Phil Dunphy from Modern Family is playing like the DA of, like, New Jersey. It's just it's fantastic. If you look away from the crime of it all, which is kind of easy because it's the first, like two minutes. So you just skip the intro and you're like-- [Laughter] Then, it's the office dynamics. Because every case makes a character confront either a political view, a personal view, a journey, and then the trauma of what's being faced. I'm just really interested in acting right now, and I'm learning about it. And it's also making me a better writer. And then especially now, like, editing screenplays and like, like. And I'm being like, you know what? I know this character doesn't need to say this because they can show this. And you know what? Let's make a note. I want her to think about this, this and this and this. And she should really be pulling on this moment because that's when she lost her family, and that's when she lost any notion of family. So it's just really powerful acting because I can't watch anything that, like, I still haven't seen the Bear. Anything that people like now, I'm like three months late to Chapel Rowan. I kind of live in this like, oh my God. Well, I got to get through 22 more seasons of Law and Order SVU before I can even consider this, but it's so great. Really good at plotting. Right now. Well, not good at plotting crimes because this is recorded. So I don't know anything. I don't know anything. I like the acting. >> Christine Bollow: When I was in college, I babysat for the casting director of all the Law and Orders. Just randomly. Very random. >> Tomi Adeyemi: But I'm like, what did she see in you to cast you as the babysitter? [Laughter] >> Christine Bollow: She's a good casting director. >> Christine Bollow: She is. Yeah. >> Tomi Adeyemi: So what did she see? Because, you know, she's casting in her real life. >> Christine Bollow: I mean, I was very sweet and innocent looking, I guess. I don't know. I mean, I'm good with kids, I was. I don't know. >> Tomi Adeyemi: You should ask her. >> I know. >> You go, why? >> Christine Bollow: Why? >> Tomi Adeyemi: Why me? >> Christine Bollow: Vanessa, what's some art that you've been breathing in lately? >> Vanessa Le: I've been studying a lot. Well, okay, this is a little bit of a cheesy answer, but I think it's called the art of medicine for a reason. And I really understood that reason when I interact with patients, and I think people are art and people are stories, and you get to learn a lot about their stories when you interact with them, especially when they're coming in at their lowest moment. When I was working a lot in the oncology clinic over the summer, I was absolutely astounded, like taken away by the strength of the human spirit. And it's so enduring, like they could be up against the greatest mountain and, you know, they'll be like, I'm the one that's going to climb that. And it's very inspiring. And I want to be able, on the one hand, to write those kind of stories, their stories. But on the other hand, I'm not the one that should be writing those stories. So what I take away from those encounters is not, you know, oh, I'm not going to take their story and put it into my story, but rather, you know, as me as a provider, what can I get out of listening to people, understanding their backgrounds, their stories, and just not only distilling that into my writing, but trying to distill that into the practice of the art of medicine as well. So not to end on a more somber tone, but, you know, I think-- >> Tomi Adeyemi: That's not somber or cheesy. That's profound and beautiful. >> Vanessa Le: Thank you. I think people are art, and we have a lot to learn from each other. >> Christine Bollow: Thank you. So we're going to get to audience questions. If people want to line up on either end and while y'all are lining up, I'll ask my last question, which is what are some books or maybe other forms of media, it could be anime, that you think your book is in conversation with? >> Tomi Adeyemi: Ooh. Ooh. That's hard. >> Christine Bollow: We can always skip it if you're like. >> Tomi Adeyemi: I was like, that's a really hard. >> Vanessa Le: I'm thinking like my cops. >> Tomi Adeyemi: Yeah. You have-- >> Vanessa Le: I think it's like-- >> Tomi Adeyemi: I think, you know, because we're also writing something different. So it's now I'm like in the thing I'm writing, I was like, oh, your books are in such conversation with yourself. Yes, they are like, hey, I've never seen myself here or here or here. So I am commenting a little bit on this, this and this, but it's, I was like, this was really like me sitting in the room with my soul and being like, scream and just scream. >> Christine Bollow: You are a work of art, right? >> Tomi Adeyemi: As Vanessa said. [Laughing] >> Christine Bollow: So I think that works. Yeah. >> Tomi Adeyemi: Yeah. >> Vanessa Le: I think it sounds like they're in conversation with each other as well for books. >> Christine Bollow: Oh, definitely. Definitely. Thank you. Okay, so we have time for questions. Would you like to go first? >> Thank you all for doing this. This has been so much fun. You all are lovely. Your books are fantastic. And I think one of the things that, like most struck me with both of your books, is like, the magic systems are so interesting and detailed. What was the most fun part of building a unique magic system like that, and what was the hardest part of it? >> Vanessa Le: Yeah. Go ahead. >> Tomi Adeyemi: The most fun part popped into my head when you said it, and I was like, death. [Laughter] I was like death. The hardest part was that I, in the draft that was acquired by my publisher, there was actually 15 different clans, so 15 different magic systems. And my editor was like, why don't we pare this down? And I'm like, okay, ten. And then by book two, I was like, girl, everyone does four. Why didn't you do four? It's so clear. There's a reason they do four. You know, it's a lot to balance ten. So I think my excitement. I'm glad that they all exist. But that was the hardest part, is just having ten different types of magic systems and wanting to or different types of magic within the same system and wanting to, I guess, paint them fully, but also being like, I'm focusing on Xaeli and her journey. And throughout the trilogy, her magic changes with her journey and where she is and how she's connecting. And so it's a lot of expression, but then wanting to-- I always call them the Protractors. And I imagine the people with the Protractors were like, well, in book one on page 56, she could do this at 36 degrees, but on page three on the new trilogy, and that's where I'm like, like, fight me. Fight me. Fight me. [Laughter] But I do think about them. And I try and honor them a little bit. >> Vanessa Le: That's pretty amazing. I can only balance one magic system. But the most fun thing about it, the one thing I really like about medicine is that you are a detective. And that's why I write murder mysteries. But that was the essence of the book is that there's an illness and the character has to figure out how to overcome it, and there's actually multiple little illnesses throughout both book one and book two. And my favorite part is just the puzzle, like coming up with an exact condition that works in real life, but also translate well to the story format that holds like a symbolic correlation that works narratively, that fits the time period because it's set in, you know, the kind of the equivalent of the 1900s, and they didn't know a lot of medicine back then. But I would say the hardest part is she has to heal a brain injury. And I don't know anything about the brain. And quite frankly, I was doing research on this. And, you know, modern medicine can't exactly necessarily bring people back from comas yet either. So I was like, I unfortunately put myself in a situation that doesn't have an actual answer. But, you know, that's where science fantasy comes in. It's the fantasy part of science fantasy. So, you know, you just handwave everything that you don't know. >> Christine Bollow: Yeah. Thank you. Next question. >> Hi. Yeah. Sorry. I'm usually really loud. I just want to say, first off, I'm really excited to be here and watch you guys speak and listen to you. I just think it's a really warm environment. You guys are awesome. I'm trying to frame my question, so it's very open ended for both of you, because I want you to really speak from your own personal experiences as creatives. So what pitfalls or challenges have you experienced, either in your creative process or writing your stories, or even sharing them with the world and seeing them come to success, seeing them interact with the world, you know, outside of these spaces, within your own minds? I'm really curious to hear about that. >> Tomi Adeyemi: That's such a gorgeous question. Immediately-- I got to go to a retreat in this past May. It had a lot of creative people, and it was it was dealing with like the, honestly, the pitfalls of creativity. And it was the first time someone stood in front of me and was like, creativity is a unique thing, because if you're successful at it, it can kill you. And no one had ever put it that way. But we've seen that motif a lot in our lives and even in our, like our field of young adult fantasy, like so many successful young adult fantasy authors get really sick. So many of them are hospitalized. Like, even I got really sick during my journey. So I think that's a pitfall. It's like we sat here and I'm like, hey, I'm almost ten years into this now, so now I know I'm actually writing to be known. I'm not writing to hide, but ten years ago, I was right. I was like, I don't know anyone else who feels this angry, who feels this sad, who feels this heartbroken. And if I don't get this out of me, I feel like I'm going to explode. So it's very unique, doing things from the most raw and bleeding part of your heart and soul, and then sharing them with what you think is one person. And then that's like, okay, so that's a million people. It's scary. There's the physical scariness of being like, oh, I'm going to post literally where I am and what I'm doing. So if someone doesn't like me, but then I'm also like, let's go. So, you know, a little bit Nigerian. My grandma was a Scorpio. Anyway. So it's like there's a lot and I think something that's given me a lot of peace or grace is so many of the women I admired when I started out told me like, hey, just get through your first series. And they told me about all the insane things that happened to them during their first series, things you would never guess. And these are like, these are my idols. And I honestly saw that in my own life. I was like, I got through the first series, and then I was like, okay. And then you're like, oh, I got a nice ponytail. Like, I smell good. And I like to write. You know, it only took a decade and war. So it's a journey, but there's someone I really admire. One of my heroes once said, like, told me creativity is like breathing. They're like, she's like, if you're not creating, you feel like you're suffocating. So I would say what I try and teach the students that like mentors, like, fall in love with your process. Learn a process that is both productive but also soothing because that process will support you through your entire career, from your-- I'm trying to get an agent to like, oh, I just wrote a best seller. I have to write the second one to like, oh, I'm writing a script on a movie to I have a new book. Like, I finally have a creative process that I love. And it's not only a safe space for my soul to create, but I don't feel separate from the world anymore. I don't feel like I'm hiding in my creativity and that those people can't coexist. So yeah, I say all of it because creativity is beautiful and it can be dangerous. At least for me now, understanding it's a learning process. It would have taken so much pressure off, like my debut year and my first few years, because you just want to get it right. Yeah. >> Vanessa Le: I'm so glad I'm paddling with you. Because that's exactly I feel what I need to hear in this moment. As someone who's just come out with my first book, and one of the hardest things for me is whether intentionally or inadvertently, is becoming a voice piece for a lot of Vietnamese Americans, which I didn't intend to do. Like, I wrote this very specifically to myself, and it turns out a lot of people relate. But on the one hand, it's a privilege to be able to, you know, represent a demographic that I was very disconnected to. But on the other hand, I'll be very honest, it feels like a curse sometimes where, you know, people see you and they're like, oh, your experience must reflect a lot of people's experiences. And I'm like, nope, it's my experience. But, you know, that's super heartening to hear that. It gets better because-- >> Tomi Adeyemi: Yes, yes. >> Vanessa Le: Very much. It does feel like I'm hiding from my own book when, you know, hopefully one day I won't be hiding, you know, from it anymore. Thank you. >> Yeah. [Applause] >> Next question. >> Hi. Sorry, I'm a little short. Thank you. Hi. Thank you so much for being here today. I'm so enjoying everything you guys are saying. Tomi, I've read your books and I'm excited to read. I haven't read yours. I haven't had the privilege to, but this question really comes at love for you both to answer from the idea of just spirituality. So much spirituality has worked into your books, both from a magic perspective, but I can also feel that, of course, from the character growth. And I'm just wondering, like, how has your own personal spirituality been changed in the process of it all and specific to you, Tomi, like, do you feel like you, from an Orisha perspective, have like really grown close to one? Or is there one that you still want to still explore that you haven't yet? And I'm sorry, I know this is a lot, but like, how do you go about that process outside of, like, the internet? Like, how are you using resources to explore that? >> Tomi Adeyemi: I love that question. I love that question. I feel I'm in the most spiritual place I've ever been. And it's twofold. And it's it's funny, I was hearing like, an Oya song in my head when you were talking, and I don't know the words exactly. So it's like, I don't want to sing it because it's like, I'll mess it up. But being Nigerian where people of strong faith. So we were raised-- For me, I was raised Christian, and there's also a lot of music associated with that. It's like, ♪ We are saying, thank you, Jesus. ♪ You know, it's like we're-- ♪ Thank you, oh Lord. ♪ Like there's just so much of that. So we're raised on that. We're kind of dragged to church on Sunday. But for me, there comes a point, and especially happened in book three, in the process of book three, where I really had to lean on God, I was like, yo, I can't do this. Like I'm a Leo. I got a lot of pride, you know that I can't do this. I give up, can we-- And so now, if you haven't read the book, I feel like we all know the Lord of the Rings moment where Frodo is like, I can't do it. And Sam's like, if you can't make it off this mountain, I'll carry you. [Laughter] I promise you, I can't tell you one thing that happens in that entire trilogy in the 18 hours of, I'm like, what is, who to, what? But that one moment is everything, and I feel that through spirituality, I feel that through people in my life who for me are God given like angels. But it's it's not just about a specific faith. I really just see the divine in so many people and circumstances and emotions and then this entire book has been the journey with the Orisha. It's like, I now look at that moment in Brazil and I'm like, oh my gosh, like, Oya, you snap me up, you snap me up. And we went on a journey for seven years. And so now I'm on the other side of it and it's daily. There's the story and then there's the gifts that stay with you after the story. It's the fact that to center myself today, I had to listen to a worship song. You know, it's like, okay, I try and do that every morning because whether I wake up in my home or whether I wake up somewhere, it's like, okay, I just want to be centered. And then the song fills me with such gratitude. And then I'm brought to tears and I'm like, okay, time to do your eyeliner. So it's just like, Glory be to God. It's like, it's just-- it's a fountain. And it's on both, both sides. I find so much from what we would traditionally recognize as God. I find so much from Oya, from Oshun, from the rainstorms, from, you know, the wind. So someone I really admire, she's like, I live in the realm of the miraculous. And I'm like, you know, I feel like I live in the realm of the divine. And I try to stay there. So yeah, I hope that answers your question. >> It does. Thank you. >> Christine Bollow: Thank you. We are sadly out of time. >> Tomi Adeyemi: Oh, sorry. >> Christine Bollow: I feel like this could go on for so much longer. Like, let's get our jammies and I'll hang out. >> Tomi Adeyemi: Yeah. [Laughing] >> Thank you both so much. >> Thank you. [Applause] >> Vanessa Le, Tomi Adeyemi. [Music]