Donald Trump or Chase Oliver? Which One Should Libertarians Support This November?

[Music] [Applause] [Music] well good evening everybody and welcome back to the LCI Green Room I'm Jacob winegrad I'm the host of the biblical Anarchy podcast here at the libertarian Christian Institute uh part of our Christians for Liberty Network I'm glad that you guys are watching tonight those of you who are watching live those of you watching afterwards as well we're going to have a pretty good conversation I think tonight between two friends of mine they're they're kind of meeting for the first time but I've known both of these gentlemen for uh a little while and we're going to be talking about uh some some things pertaining to uh politics and I just wanted to do the usual disclaimers here at the beginning that we as the libertarian Christian Institute in so far as I'm here representing them tonight uh we're nonprofit We don't make endorsements of parties or candidates or anything like that but the purpose of this conversation should be informative should be educational and to kind of showcase what the the issues are from a Christian perspective and a Libertarian perspective going into this November because there's a lot of critical issues that are uh at stake that people care about and so that's what we're here to dive into and discuss and so sort of the informal resolution for tonight is for Libertarians what are they going to do in November should they support uh Chase Oliver who is the uh libertarian party's Presidential nominee or a lot of Libertarians including uh Dave here tonight uh think that perhaps Libertarians would be better off throwing their support behind Donald Trump and there's going to be some reasons given for that uh before we get into it please make sure wherever you guys are watching if you want to like this uh stream uh subscribe wherever you're at uh that helps us out boost it so that more people can watch and uh yeah so I'll kind of introduce you both one at a time before we kind of dive into it of course Alex should be no stranger he has a little bit of unfair Advantage here he's he's kind of playing on the home field uh one of our fellow podcast hosts here at the libertarian Christian Institute host of the uh Protestant libertarian podcast uh Alex you want to give a just a little brief introduction to yourself and just your your general uh you General opinion and mindset going into this conversation yeah I mean you know I'm Alex the host of the Protestant libertarian podcast um I live in the state of Kentucky and so I'm sure this is going to come up later on my vote really does not matter at all because Donald Trump is going to get all eight of my State's electoral votes so I'm in a very convenient position as a Libertarian to be able to say that regardless of who won the lp nominee I could throw my vote to them because it it really doesn't matter I can appreciate that the issue is probably a lot more complicated and complex for people living in other states especially swing states where their votes really could help decide the margin of victory in this election and so I'm really excited talk to bit Dave about that tonight I also love that uh KLA Harris is not one of the two options that we are going to be discussing on the show today I think that that's a great common ground for all of us to be starting on tonight yeah no I I I think yeah I mean like some people might have S might suggest like are you going to do a you know why don't you have someone representing Harris and I don't know I mean may maybe I'm a little bit too impartial there but I just I I feel like other than just I mean actually no we'll just give the libertarian case for Camala Harris right now it's just full-blown collapsitarian right it's just like you know what I'm tired of this kind of slow drawn out movie simulation we're stuck in and I just want to fast forward to the end so there we go we've represented the the the libertarian argument for voting for Camala Harris we we need to deal with that for the rest of tonight uh so yeah Alex I appreciate you being part of this uh Dave uh I've known you for a little bit longer than Alex you and I both uh I think just have met through interacting in the mis's caucus and the libertarian party and you also have your own podcasts I know you have your own Dave versus Goliath and then you're also kind of a kind of a regular I guess co-host on the system is down with Dan smz who is a complete coward uh who will not have me on his show so I'm calling Dan out tonight cuz that's what you do when you bring up Dan is you have to call him or Dave Smith a coward those are the libertarian podcast rules uh Dave I appreciate you coming out tonight to represent sort of the other side of this conversation you want to give a little short introduction and you kind of your opening statement yeah dudes thank you for the invite it's great to be here Alex great to meet you man um so yeah uh I like you am looking for a protest vote like I have been since uh you know I voted for Ralph nater in the year 2000 um I've never voted for a Republican presidential candidate before I've never registered as a republican I've never identified as a republican but the first time ever I'm considering voting for one U but yeah I'm a Ron Paul guy I was uh you know your classic liberal atheist a-hole uh before that U changed some opinions and grew with the Revolution and participated in the mis's caucus takeover of the libertarian party and then yeah started a podcast and then uh yeah pretty much Dan MZ and I made that thing Facebook official and we do the system is down like twice a week now so um but yeah man I'm excited to have this chat I kind of more looking at this like steal Manning the Trump argument versus uh versus Chase rather than this is not an endorsement not telling anybody how to vote um but I might try and persuade you why it's if you if you're going to participate in the action of it if we're going to operate under the assumption that we have free and fair elections and the presidents are not uh elected but SE or excuse me not selected but elected um then yeah I think I could make the argument that uh there's a utilitarian argument at least behind voting for Trump over Chase Oliver but excited about uh talking with you guys about it tonight right on uh Dave just I did see a comment saying that your mic volume is still a little low to the audience uh I've turned you up all I can on my end so if you want to mess with that a little bit and uh maybe people will be able to hear you a little bit better uh so uh all right uh live stream you know technical stuff out of the way uh although this is you know that's that's that's rather minor I've had uh Alex and I once interviewed Steph wolf who did the wrote the book the Case for Christian nationalism and we did the entire interview with Stephen like I think we had like a 15 second lag behind us and was like literally like two frames uh every like three or four seconds it was it was bad that was one of the rougher ones we ever did um so yeah I mean like I I was really excited to do this because you know from a personal level you know LCI stuff aside I really don't know how I personally want to vote this November and I'm probably not even going to be super public about it but I I kind of see both sides to this I even understand the perspective of some of the like anti-political aurists who who think that you shouldn't vote at all and I'm you know or at least like in this election I know like Dave Smith um has has said that he probably just won't vote uh this election because he doesn't want to vote for Trump or obviously Harris and he just can't really support Chase so he'll probably you know not vote or write in Ron Paul or whatever um and I think you know it's kind of respect all these different positions but I personally feel like I would rather vote than not vote but then it's towards what end um so I guess to kind of to kick it off you know we're all Libertarians here we've all you know support the libertarian party through you know various means or for various reasons um and some Libertarians will kind of make the case that even if you don't like the libertarian candidate that you libertarian candidate is almost always going to be better than any of the duopoly candidates unless it was like Ron Paul himself but we all know that the Republican Party would never let him actually win a nomination fair and square so at that point you're kind of left you know if you're going to vote well then you might as well make it a proest vote that goes toward something and voting for a third party candidate at least helps with ballot access and kind of you know can help build momentum towards something so is is that a major consideration for you Alex and to to you Dave is is that something where you feel like that that isn't perhaps the most important thing this time around and kind of Kick It Off from there yeah Dave if you want to start this so I'll be honest with you you guys uh you said ballot access uh I know that's a big that's a big one it's a big libertarian party buzzword and that is not something that I am personally hyperfocused on I'm not saying it doesn't matter I'm not saying that um not trying to take away from any work that people do hustling getting signatures and that stuff by the way I I did do this I'm not just arm chairing this I did the thing did the Takeover ran one County chair did that for two years so like I participated in all this stuff tried to get candidates tried to get out there tried to build a party all that stuff and I do really believe that the party has a lot of potential and actually a lot of political power and I think that some people are exploring that in really new creative ways and I'm excited about that um but I really feel like after my six to seven years trying to rehab this and turn it into something that can be useful for the Liberty Movement um I think that a lot of that has us spinning on the hamster wheel just being real with you guys um this is all by the way this isn't like anything new if you go check out the project decentralized Revolution like the presidential stuff this is not heavy in there it's kind of like a standard Bearer thing a messaging campaign kind of thing and we should be focusing on local elections right um so yeah I think that guys like yeah I think that you know like New York they're not going to get it they're not going to be in 2020 we had all 50 states and now it's four less it will probably be continuously be less like they are trying to kind of like work this away right and we can continue to spend millions of dollars and kind all kinds of manh hours and labor and energy and um but um some the things that the the post Libertarians got right was that there are only so many Liberty you know hands ready to do work so like we kind of should think about where we focus that um so ballot access and stuff I don't know like guys I think that the lesson from RFK if anything let's learn from other people's mistakes like he had tens of millions more dollars way so many more thousands of donors and volunteers and all of the stuff and he couldn't forget you know couldn't even get on the debate stage you know what I mean we just really need to take a real reassessment of what we can do which are some really cool stuff we saw it this year with the Trump coming to the party and hearing some of our Grievances and and other things um but uh no I I think we really need to re rethink this um and I think we need to put an emphasis on Liberty lobbying for Liberty like what can the how can we leverage stuff look at Colorado look at what Angela's doing and kind of take cues from those people and go from there yeah Alex what do you think about that um Dave Dave just said he doesn't think ballot access really the number one consideration here what what are your thoughts yeah I mean I largely agree with much of what you just said there we all know that the libertarian nominee for president is never going to win the election there's just not a chance that's ever going to happen and I I completely agree with the project decentralized Revolution and I think it's been successful in a way that a lot of the people that are upset with the mis's caucus leadership of the party have not acknowledged like I personally know several people in Kentucky that have ran for M1 office as Libertarians because of that grassroot support and I understand why there are a lot of people in the misus wing of the party and and I I'm I'm a part of the misus caucus wing of the party as well I understand why there are a lot of people that are frustrated by Chase Oliver because if you have a presidential candidate the goal should be like messaging an image you want somebody out there that's giving a bold libertarian message and that sharing our principles and there are a lot of people that feel especially since Dave Smith was was was the front runner without even running at the very beginning of this cycle there were a lot of people that were just disappointed with the with the the results of that election um I mean I I definitely understand we don't want to waste a lot of money on these presidential runs but I also know that in a state like Kentucky where we have a very corrupt Republican party at the state level and a lot of people that have natural libertarian leanings I think that having another option on the ballot at the end of the year and making it to where that candidate actually has some traction I think that would give a lot of people that are in that mind space the the the I guess permission to think that they could vote for somebody other than a republican I mean if you look and again a lot of this has to do with what state you're in too and I think we were talking about this a little bit um at the beginning of the show like for people that live in swing States or that live in deep blue States the calculation might be different but in Kentucky we have Ram Paul and Thomas Massie there are a lot of people that want libertarian Solutions and I just want to give them as many options as possible yeah I I don't know I guess I what's weird is I feel like I might care about ballot access a bit more than both of you although I I still think that there are some people that care about it a little bit too much but yeah I think it it probably depends on the state might affect the calculus a little bit because some states I know the presidential election doesn't even really impact them so maybe that wouldn't be a concern for you but um I I I guess maybe we should dive a little bit into just what are the issues with Chase and and why because because some people might go well I mean how bad can he be if they're not like if let's face it we we a lot of us live online or we're heavily involved in this like we kind of know already but there's a lot of people who are you know Libertarians or libertarian adjacent who like you know probably don't know much about this and are kind of like okay like you know why would you guys not vote for a Libertarian you know what's what's the deal there um Dave do you want to get into maybe you know what the major issues are with Chase that that you think are are deal breakers or that are concerns that make it hard for you to want to vote for him as libertarian candidate sure um and I just want to say too that yeah I'm in a deep blue state so I kind I feel you on that man so like it's easy to have a protest vote in if you're in a non- swing state um but if we are operating like okay well there are a few states that could lead to one or the other outcome um you know we should we should maybe get into that um but yeah the reasons why you can't man they are plentiful um I'll start with um the inside baseball stuff you know this is a anti-ron Paul like vocally anti-ron Paul anti-is um anti-l Rockwell um anti-is caucus I mean this he his candidacy was the answer to that you know so it's not like he came in just kind of like a neutral or you know I have different ideas this guy was like f you guys I'm the I'm the answer to that um so a on a personal level I resent that um policy-wise I would say that at the top of the list before we get into the issues just broad brush it Chase failed the biggest test that any leader that were we should take on um that had in 2020 Chase listened to and he would say well you're free to do what you want yeah you're free to to to take the advice of the regime about mask mandates and you're free to take the advice about getting the the jibid jab if you feel like it you are free to do those things sir you're free to buy a hundred versions of colorful masks to express yourself uh and virtue signal you're free to do that um but that's not what I'm looking for in a leader and that was a test and you failed it bigly so like I'm sorry but you can't lead the most radical party in America that's automatic deal breaker um on a specific level the position he's taken with uh puberty blockers for children um not being firm enough just answering that clearly uh bothers me a lot um it's funny like it come like he'll he'll flirt around like that Lefty kind of like healthc care is a is a right kind of world a little bit if it fits his narrative um like I I resent and then we could get more into this this is you know a Hot Topic amongst libertarian circles but I don't care if a parent and a doctor and a child agree that you can mutilate that child that's not that is not uh in line with you know nature right and my and my beliefs um so you know like other people would say well you know who are you you to intervene okay you can have you can have that conversation are are parents and tattoo artists free to tattoo their kids face are they free to should I leave it up to my next door neighbor if they want to punch their kid in the face nightly you know is that yeah well whatever how they parent yeah so um those kinds of things guys I think that these are like super deal breakers um for me I just I I can't see co-signing that in any kind of way um or promoting that or like or trying to get somebody to leave their tribe of red or blue to go look at this there's no way I would Point somebody to that you know yeah well yeah so I feel like Alex is probably going to agree that that's not a those are not things that I think any of us here would be like oh we're going to defend Chase on that like he got a right uh but but Alex how would you handle that like you know someone who thinks that maybe we should vote for Chase and encourage others if if someone is like Dave whether they're you know a conservative or libertarian or just a regular American who just hated the the co crap or who can just kind of understand intuitively that uh you know children can't consent to the these uh these procedures and stuff I mean listen Chase's position is so bad and also inconsistent that even like reason magazines Liz wolf was grilling him on it saying effectively too yeah effectively like okay you say cuz Chase's position to be clear is he says no to the surgeries but that it's okay for hormone treatments and puberty blockers and she was like well why like kind of feel like you need to be either for both or against both otherwise it feels like you're just kind of like drawing an arbitrary Line in the Sand and not really giving a reason so you know he's definely definitely not a position that I would defend uh in terms of like saying that I'm for that so how do you handle that Alex if you're having a conversation with someone and and you say I'm voting for Chase Oliver and either of those things come up yeah and I I want to bring it back actually first thing because the thing that is the most frustrating to me about Chase Oliver is what he said about Ron Paul I mean like Dave you're 100% correct be so angry I forgot about it oh I no I I know I know and that and that's so terrible and like I I just don't know like what what kind of libertarian you're trying to appeal to by attacking wrong Paul I mean like I think even like left Libertarians have respect for the guy for being consistent you know uh so that one was the one that really threw me for a loop as far as the covid stuff goes I agree he was not good on covid and he par at all the regime talking points it does seem as if his campaign has been walking some of that back lately just following his Twitter feed he seems like he's a lot more vocal against those kind of things of course you know it's hindsight's 2020 he knows now what he didn't know back there and so it's very easy to say after the fact okay well now that now that it's kind of acceptable to criticize this stuff I'm going to go back and and criticize it as well I think that like my biggest offense of Chase Oliver is that Donald Trump is the father of the covid chaos like he's the one that kept fouchy in charge all throughout 2020 he's responsible for the lockdowns and covid-19 was probably developed in an American funded lab during his presidency and then the Biden and Harris Administration took what was a terrible situation and only made it worse so both of the major party candidates are just as responsible I mean they're actually responsible for implementing these policies Chase Oliver just responded to it in a very non- libertarian non-critical way does not excuse him for what he said I'm not trying to make it that that case as well with the hormone stuff I I agree it's a really big problem I I know that Jacob you know this and Dave I'm going to say and I hope you don't lose respect for me uh I am a public school teacher it's one of the reasons I'm a Libertarian I kind of woke up inside the system you know it's I I literally had a red pill moment in 2020 um and so I understand how damaging these drugs can be for kids I think that if you look at the way that chase Oliver has framed his position on healthc Care on his website he wants to open up the healthare to the the healthare system in America to the free market I mean the reality is and we all agree with we like we all understand this is true we have socialized Healthcare already in the United States like we don't get to make decisions as consumers as to how we access healthc care and I think that a lot of the reasons why puberty blockers as well as anti-depressants and ADHD medicine are being pushed on kids is because the FDA has created a regulatory framework in which a lot of pharmaceutical companies and medical complexes make a killing giving these mostly unnecessary drugs to little kids and so I think that if we did truly have a free market and Chase Oliver does does seem to believe that he wants a free market in healthcare a lot of those problems would solve themselves because you wouldn't have all of the uh the the negative and harmful incentives that come with having a socialized Health Care system I think that would be the way that I would deal with those and he is the one who is advocating for the highest level of markets in our health care System I think that that's my defense again I'm not I'm not saying that uh that he was that he was right or even good on any of those issues in particular Dave I totally understand all of your concerns I just still think that he's better on those issues than the Alternatives yeah Dave you have any responses to that so I would agree that let's put aside the Border stuff let's put aside the kid transing stuff let's put aside the mean things that he said about our friends yeah yes he's going to be better on gun policy than either of the other two candidates he's going to be better on tax policy and probably better on foreign policy right um and I'm sure more issues than that dude here's the thing though and this is like this is where I think we need to like really consider this nobody knows who he is and nobody when they go to check that box if they it'll just be the third box like we've had a real problem this isn't Chase's problem he didn't start this but since the beginning we've been the third box we get the third amount of votes we get millions of votes we always have you know between 10 and 20,000 members though so there's this huge disparity there are millions of libertarian libertarian leaning people out there that are looking for something and obviously we all want to protest vote sometimes that's good like I'll accept it it's easy to do it from Delaware here Gary Johnson no problem that was easy for me and I feel clean doing it you know what I mean yeah but I think that this at this juncture and really for me I've you know talked some on Chase I haven't really talked about Trump yet but a lot of this changed for me post libertarian party convention when you came to me when you came to me and said what do you want because I know that he didn't come there because he thinks that we're really cool you know he he came there because he wants our support he wants our votes he wants you know pay attention to me that's what an egoo Maniac trying to get all the biggest numbers ever you know right that's what he would want but he's also I know he's a liar everybody's like oh he promised these things who cares it's Donald Trump it's like yeah but he's also the deal guy like he's done this very very publicly multiple times I'll end the Department of Education I'll free Ross oit cbdcs are Dead on Arrival you know leave abortion to the states these are like huge libertarian wins like moving the ball way down the field dudes so to go back to those swing States like you and I can play dude in Kentucky and where it's whatever like I love the idea that I can go you Joe Biden in your state Trump you know what I mean sorry for cursing on the show I really I should watch that I will I will in the future um but I'm looking for you know a little bit of middle finger action with my vote I always have and in this election it feels like you know in the beginning we were joking like K is not in it that's because that's not a protest vote we all feel that in our hearts literally you know she's the sitting essentially number two in charge but yeah that's been your everything that's been happening your respons responsible for that not to take away from what you were saying Alex about how Trump kicked off warp speed and how he still Champions it and all dude this is all true and awful bum stocks awful um talking about you know we won't fight any stupid Wars but then you know we'll bomb the crap out of them the next day like this is who you dealing with but at the end of the day from a utilitarian perspective as the great Janet Jackson once said what have you done for me lately like kamla won't even she won't go on your podcast she won't go on theovon she won't go on Lex Lex freem she won't entertain you come to your events and go what what's bothering you so like I I know that that's not much you know it's it's a promise from Trump but I would ask you guys how much more is a promise from Trump worth than a promise from Chase Oliver who who physically cannot there is a z% chance that like I know his policies are good your policies are good Alex my policies are good Jacob's policies are good but we need like like somebody who can actually change policy and for the first time ever there's a guy who came to us came to our little 1% party and went okay what's up I think that that's really historic and like maybe deserves a second look yeah I I will say one of the most compelling reasons to vote for Trump when I'm thinking about this in my in my head and some of the promises he made I'm kind of like yeah I don't know like when he said we're going to put a Libertarian in his cabinet I'm like yeah but like Trump's definition of a of a Libertarian could be so broad that it could just be like you know some lukewarm Republican who like I'm a Libertarian you know like you know oh Ben Shapiro I'm a Libertarian and puts you know someone like that in his cabinet and be like okay that was you know not not that helpful um but uh I forget some of the other promises the the free Ross one um is the one that honestly is the most enticing because it's kind of a low cost to him and I know he kind of already tried to do it before and kind of it just didn't work out because he waited too long so um and and even if he doesn't it would be an opportunity to increase cuz like after the convention there was such a huge spike in the conversations around Ross and even since then Trump has name name dropped Ross um so I don't know like I I really want to see Ross Alber freed in my lifetime that'd be amazing um and and so I think that's a a pretty like you I know Chase wants R Ross free too but is a vote for Chase going to go towards that or is a vote for Trump going to go towards that so you know that's something where uh you know I mean put this way voting for Chase is a lowrisk low reward voting for Trump seems to be a lowrisk potentially High reward my kind of seems the point that Dave seems to be making there so I mean what what do your thoughts on that Alex what you know is is there anything on the other side of the Ledger that you're that you're thinking of in response to that yeah I mean I I agree with all of those concerns and I love that I love that Donald Trump came to the libertarian convention and I love that he's listening to Libertarians and I love that he's trying to appeal to us the problem is just his record from his first term in office he talked a great game in 2016 and even though I didn't vote for him in 2016 like when he was elected I was kind of like okay this guy says he's going to drain the swamp like let's let's give him a chance like he's he's saying the right things but by the time he left office he' increased the budget he' increased the deficit he increased military spending and he had harassed Jerome pal because he believed that like pal hadn't kept interest rates low enough you know what I'm saying and so like Donald Trump just I don't think he fundamentally understands any of the issues that are plaguing our country he has some he has some excellent intuitions he has some really great intuitions but he surrounds himself with some of the worst possible people and now I hope like and again um to your point Dave I a trump presidency is preferable to a Harris presidency and so like in the real world I hope that Trump wins because it's going to be either Trump or Harris and I think that Trump is at least going to be marginally better than a Harris Administration but I just don't see him based on his record during his first term in office making the kind of sweeping changes that I think we really need to have unless he learns to surround himself with better people and he just did not have a good sense of that the first time around now maybe maybe he's changed I I hope that he is and and hopefully like in two years we could come back on the Green Room and have this conversation again and Dave you and Jacob could tell me how wrong I was and how Trump actually did change the world and it's I would love if that happened I just don't believe it based on his first term in office I just think he's going to get in there he's going to allow himself to be rolled by whoever his most powerful influences are and I don't think we're going to see any real change see I love this position I can I can sort of play off my cognitive dissonance on this subject and kind of do good cop and bad cop in both directions so I'm going to take this back piggy back off Alex's point to Dave everything Alex said and then also one of the knee dck reactions I get is that I I I feel like I I get this icky feeling jumping back into the we got to vote for the lesser of two evils because I think even as Alex said now Grant yeah like Trump's the Lesser evil I would much prefer you know uh to live under four years of trump than than than Harris but there's a difference between me saying I'd prefer that versus I'm going to vote for it because especially for me to go around tell people like this is who I'm voting for because I feel like that just lends more cred I know people we hate the term duopoly because it's like kind of like an over tired libertarian talking point but like there is truth to the the problem of this two-party system we live in where it's every four years we're kind of forced into this you know uh voting for the Lesser two evils and it's from both sides I get nauseous hearing it from Trump supporters and and family members who were Trump who were like oh if Harris wins it's going to be socialism and communism and I'm like we've been living under basically socialism for a while a while where have you been uh and then flip aside like my my my leftist uh family and friends although that's a much smaller list uh but my my sister's a big leftist and she's literally like you know thinking like living in like a uh she feels like Trump's an existential threat and she's like yeah you know what I would vote third party because I know the system's corrupt but we just got to step Trump he's so bad and I'm like yeah you said that last time and the time before and like every four years it's just you know the other side so bad we got to vote for this one and I really don't want to play into that cuz I feel like that just is part of the mechan naations that keeps the system of Perpetual socialism and tyranny going so what are your thoughts on all that um so I would say as far as you know voting for the lesser of two evil men that's something that I've have echoed for a long time dude you know only voted pretty much independent libertarian Ron Paul I I totally understand that and I if you were to go dude it's Jeb Bush versus Hillary or it's you know Nikki Haley versus KLA Harris or whatever like something like that I go dude you're right different store same groceries but I definitely feel like and this is somebody again I I've thought that most of our presidents are selected not elected the first time in my whole adult life I thought that that might be different with Donald Trump I mean they just shot at him right so like we're assuming that that's some real then forgive me again biblical podcast um you're good man listen listen you're not as bad as Scott Horton yet okay so okay all Scott Scott Scott's at the bar high for swear words on our shows um so I think dudes they're that we are in competition with the right in a way that we are not with the left so Libertarians right now who are in the Trump orbit like Clint and Jo or Angela Angela mardle has been to Mar Lago to discuss this like this is a this is better this is if we have people around Trump I I think that if not only is that just advantageous politically but Trump will respond to uh you know ideas that are popular or that make him look good so like if you know like the cbdc thing is a perfect example man like when you know came up to him and was like hey man you should probably take a look at this he's like what is it I don't know what that is tell me about it and he gave him the lowdown and he came out in a speech like a couple days later and was like what's up with these cbdcs we can't have this you know so I really do think he's kind of like kind of ignorant you know on a lot he's got some pretty good in instincts but um I think uh to your point dude horrible cabinet horrible piics in 2016 some of the worst human beings on the planet all I'll say is that you know going right with what we can see right now with RFK Jr and Tulsi that's like more encouraging um I if if kamla has you know Dick Cheney and the clintons and the Obamas you know I'd rather hang out with Tulsi and and RFK Jr we were talking about you know you know people are concerned with the health care System just they don't have they don't really want the answers they want to just like fix it you know what I mean that's why Libertarians have that uphill battle to like wait just wait how about we give you no money for anything right yeah it's A Hard Sell yeah absolutely yeah and and and that's where I I I totally I totally understand that and I've I've said this to a lot of people if I was living in a swing state like Ohio or Pennsylvania my calculation would be a lot different like I would really have to take all of those things in consideration there is I think a greater degree of promise this time around with Trump than there was in 2016 at least from a Libertarian perspective because like you said it does seem as if the people that are in his orbit now seem to have more liberty-minded ideas it's just a matter of whether or not he's going to keep those people in his orbit if he is going to be elected to office and I think that that's the real challenge I think another another aspect of this for me which makes it easy to support Chase Oliver given the fact that like it doesn't really matter who I vote for at the top of the ticket is that there are a lot of like Progressive Christian types that I interact with online that are just all sold out for KLA Harris and she's all about peace and Justice and truth and you know the whole thing and the problem is like every time someone posts that I have a I have a picture saved on my phone of KLA Harris at an APAC rally and I just post that because it's just so obvious that she represents the party of of Perpetual War and the party of Perpetual debt like she is the antithesis of everything that these progressives say that they believe in but they're all going to go and vote for her in November anyways and so as a Christian who believes like that we should always be against war and that everyone should be given a fair chance and that we shouldn't give the power to control the value of our money to some of the wealthiest and most corrupt people in the world it's going to be it's really easy for me to pull the trigger for Chase Oliver in November and say look like I I vote in a manner that's consistent with my principles when I'm debating with these progressives that I want to bring closer and closer to the libertarian side it's like look you call yourselves Christians but you voted for a a literal war criminal and I haven't done that yet and that's a part of my reservation with Trump I definitely understand the political calculus it would be different if I was in a different state but I also like being able to say that like I I voted for Chase and so like I'm I'm pure you know what I'm like ideologically which I know is not necessarily practical or pragmatic but it does serve in terms of like in terms of evangelizing to the progressive types that have sold out for Harris it does serve a function for me in that way and at the end of the day I mean I live in Thomas massie's District so I I'm going to vote for Thomas Massie like he's the guy I'm voting for that's I'm dude totally jelly over that that's pretty awesome um he's the best yeah you got Rand Paul too um so it doesn't it doesn't bother you though that like I I'll admittedly dude mass murder is you know I just can't believe I was going to say this I guess mass murder is worse than you know what they're doing to these kids but like that is some of the worst stuff and you know what man like I'm on a Christian podcast right now like it's another I've never identified as a Christian but um but I have felt uh I've joked about this on the podcast I do with SMS like I felt like I've owed the the Christians of the 90s an apology because you know they there's been a you know slippery slope on a lot of things that I just didn't didn't see coming or thought that they were ridiculous claims and uh you know come to see these things it's just like the the gradual degradation demoralization of society like it just is kind of like a race to the bottom and uh they really do use you know our natural empathy and um uh they use that against us and they want you to just you know I don't know how they do it and when I say they you know I know what that is either I used to be very uncomfortable using terms like demons and uh you know the devil and things like that and I'm not even sure like what I don't have definitions for these things but I'm okay using the terminology now like I feel like I've seen so much evil in the world in the past 10 15 this is like and I've been paying attention since 911 but just like ultimate Evil that like I I feel like I might I'm meeting God through the devil like I I'm I'm being pulled towards like some of my best friends are Christians and uh you know like really getting a lot out of it um and you know using terms like man the armor of God I'm putting the armor of God on like this just like it resonates with me when I feel like we're surrounded by such evil like I really do feel that way man I don't know kind of got off on a little minute tangent there but since we're on the Christian Institute podcast I just figured I'll put that out there yeah no I I I completely I completely agree with that and I do think that this is where like the Christian analysis of human sin and human huis really comes into play here I think that if you look at the way that the Bible talks about the responsibility that human beings have going back to Genesis chapter 1 and 2 which is the story of creation it's the foundation for the way that we as Christians should understand the world around us God creates this world and he rules as king over us he gives human beings being the the responsibility of exercising his dominion over creation so we're in charge of creation but the one thing that God did not give us the responsibility as human beings to do was rule over other human beings that was never supposed to be a part of the calculation and I think that it's when human beings in Genesis chapter 3 decid that they're going to try to be like God and take that power upon them that's when everything goes south and if you look at the large Arc of the biblical narrative it really is just one long story of human beings trying to oppress other people through Power which is why I think the libertarian answer to a lot of these social problems is also deeply founded in the Christian tradition and I think that so many of these evils like like like the the transitioning in the hormones for kids I think that when very powerful people are trying to maintain their power their power they will do whatever they can to maintain that whether that's propagandize millions of people into believing that it's okay to mutilate their kids or give them substances that are harmful for them whatever it takes for them to hold on to as much power as they possibly can they're going to do and I think that we're seeing that play out right now and I'm with you like the the hormone stuff is really really horrible um I understand how somebody that has chased Oliver's world view might be able to justify that morally but it just it just doesn't seem it just it seems like it's something that's contrary towards nature right like we just kind of both understand that regardless of what your political positions are and we're both good Libertarians we believe when you're an adult you should be able to do whatever you want but that's not something that we should be able to force on kids but also to like I think an even greater extent I see this working in the schools too the hormones are really bad but like man it's so easy for kids to get a prescription for Aderall or a prescription for zoff and we have no idea what the long-term consequences of those pharmaceutical products are too and one of the biggest lessons that we learned during covid is that a lot of this does have to a lot of this comes down to the fact that the pharmaceutical companies completely own the regulatory agencies that that make the decisions about what drugs are safe for kids and how doctors can administer those drugs to kids and I think that that whole thing is just so sick and what we really do need is a free Market solution for that problem I guess I want to bring that back to you I mean do you I don't know what Trump's position on health is because I don't think he talks about it very much I mean do you think that that there's the potential within a trump Administration to address some of those systemic issues like that so I think because he's at least beholden to you know like the Evangelical right that they'll be in his ear and at the very least you can count on them for that hey man we can't do this to the kids um and I honestly I think that this I can't believe this got this far like in Delaware man I'm sure it's not this way in Kentucky I hope not but in Delaware Medicaid will pay for your K if you're poor will pay for your kid to to get that done and in fact they're trying to pass a law here that like if a kid runs away from Florida because Florida won't do it you can it's like it's like legalized human trafficking man like you oh come to Delaware we we do it and we won't send you back to your parents like they're pushing for that kind of stuff um you know already on the books like oh the teacher doesn't or the teacher doesn't have to alert the parents um they'll send insurance companies in Delaware like don't want to have to alert parents to what they do for kids if they're on the policy these kinds of things so like it's policy it's not just like two like clashing parts of civilization it's like this is official policy you know um in fact the Affordable Care Act mandates that uh you know you can't discriminate based on gender um IDE all that kind of stuff so um and if Healthcare is a right blah blah blah blah blah then a kid who's 13 years old can you know get these things provided for him and your tax dollars will pay for it um so yeah as far as getting Trump to do something about that man like I don't know I I have a feeling that like he's playing a Christian on TV I don't get the feeling that he is is one in fact I'm sure you've seen that clip where you know they go what's your favorite talking about me playing a Christian no sorry I had to hop sorry I had to which clip go ahead sorry I didn't mean to cut you off oh I'm say I was going to say I apologize I had to rush away like that I had a little bit of a uh mini family emergency but uh what C catch me up what's the clip you're talking about Trump was on Fox years ago and they were like well what's your favorite Bible verse and he's like all them I just like them they're just all good I like them all they're pretty great listen I mean if you knew anything about the Bible you know he would have chosen Nehemiah as his favorite I mean come on building the wall around Israel I mean he should he should really learn see neemi is actually a a Libertarian way of building the wall just getting everybody to build their own wall right in front of their spot right I mean it's the it's the perfect solution to the to the porter problem yeah but instead he goes no they they're all good I'd like them all yeah classic yeah that that's part of the problem I don't know where you guys are in the conversation so I may be totally throwing it off the rails but that got tell you from a part of my issue with Trump is from that Christian Perspective that like I I so someone said earlier in the comments uh Casmir asked if I think he's if I see a difference between uh like McCain style Republican and Trump style Republican and like yeah sure like I can see a difference but but there's also similarities that irk me which is kind of the taking Christianity in vain sort of thing but in different ways like McCain's like yeah I'm a good Christian man I just advocate for you know genocide halfway across the world and Trump's like I'm a good Christian man even though I you know I I'm really just using this Bible for uh you know and Christianity to get to get votes and I've had you know a million different relationships with different women I mean he doesn't really seem like a you know on the stuff that chase is bad on you know the the the LGBT stuff the uh the woke stuff I don't get the sense that Trump is like that much better even like I'm I'm not saying he's not like I'm not saying he's as bad as like a tri typical Lefty but I don't see him as some kind of like great conservative cultural Warrior or anything if that makes sense can I ask you guys a question yeah all right we all pretty much feel like Trump is full and he'll say what is you know is expeditious just to get it get it done say whatever it takes so if he I've seen criticisms that like you know from the pro-life Community um that he's not fullon you know National abort AB ban that's not his policy like no I'm going to leave it 10th Amendment style we're going to kick it back to the States that's a huge upgrade from Row versus Wade being law of the land so um I guess my question is if he is that better like he's saying I'll take a I'll take the policy that will allow abortions but you will because of that get less abortions happening right or he comes out and says I'm fully against abortion to give you exactly what you want 100% of your policy but he loses because that position will always lose in America right now so like do you can you see how that would be is that okay is that tolerable is that like okay is morally like to to say something that might not be honest to get a better result like it will save lives what do you think Alex I mean like theologically I would say no but Donald Trump but Donald Trump's politician and that's what politicians do um I mean and I think this is one of the reasons why it's so hard for me to support really any politicians other than Thomas Massie or Ram Paul and again I think a lot of this does have to do with the fact that like the title of this episode is which like should Don or should Libertarians support Donald Trump or chase Oliver well the question is like are like Dave do you really support Donald Trump or you just think that he is a vehicle for achieving the policy goals that we want he's just the kind the means that we're going to get there and I think that we we both would probably agree like and it's the same thing with Chase Oliver uh I don't necessarily like support him as an individual but I I think that what he represents is important um but that's one of the things that is so frustrating for me it's very easy to to pull the lever for Thomas Massie and RAM Paul because I think they're consistent and I don't think they're lying to me when they get on TV and talk but I think most politicians are like that and I think that that's one of the reasons why people are so cynical and upset with the political system but it is it does I mean the point that you make is kind of like a Mak of Ellum one like good leaders given the nature of our two-party you know de democracy that we live in right now I mean do they have to do I I don't know that's that's a challenging question I guess I guess I don't know what my answer to that question is from from a political standpoint so I'm gonna kick it back to Jacob and see what he has to say yeah you know that's like okay from a pure strategy level like I can understand the logic of what you're saying Dave um and I I guess to me it's always like evaluating who we're going to vote for there's also there's also like two things here there's who am I going to vote for and am I going to be public with that vote and support um I can see an argument why libertarian could go up there you know at the they're in front of the ballot they're like man I really don't know who to vote for and they just go you know what I think Trump's better than Harris I'm just going to vote for Trump don't like it I'm just going to do it I think it's just the better option this time around I I I don't think you know uh voting Chase is fine it's not to go out there and be like I'm going to support Trump I think Libertarians should support Trump I think that like he's he's the guy we should be rallying behind um now I could say the same things about Chase but I suppose there's on on one hand it would certainly be easier right so I have like a natural bias cuz like my crowd I guess like the right-wing Christian you know sort like environment that I'm in it's a lot easier to do Trump defense but I think it goes back to kind of what I said earlier which I missed your response for so this might be rehashing things a bit but anytime I start to think about maybe supporting Trump I just feel like I'm kind of enabling the sort of like the psychologically conditioned fear response that people have that makes them vote for Republican year after year after year and I just you know and again I even though I'm in the right-wing environment just with my church and my social groups the reason I wasn't always a right a righty I was a left Wier for a long time because I just did I hated the sort of like Republican conservative environment I grew up in in terms of the the politics of it because it was kind of like every four years they had had this mindset and when I found out about um the truth I found out about the truth about like you know our foreign entanglements from a from like high school age and when I found out that it was Republicans and neocons that were largely responsible for that uh you know I just I lost respect for conservatism and Republic Republicans and and all that and I think that's why right now like to vote for Trump again even though I do see a difference between him and maybe a typical Republican uh on certain things I feel like still I'm kind of playing back into to that uh that that sort of like you know cult-like tribalistic mentality whereas voting for Chase and telling people you know what like I don't even like Chase but I'm voting for him simply because I am not going to support this system that has propagandized us to uh continue this cycle every four years where doesn't matter who we vote for what wins is the American government what wins is the surveillance State what wins is the is the military industrial complex like no matter who wins um a lot of these St these constants remain and I just don't see even with some of the like even if Trump delivered on some of his promises I I don't even know if which to me seems like a big if I don't really know that that would make any meaningful impact I think we would all agree the solution does have to be more local right that's like the Mis caucus idea it's a decentralized revolution but is is is voting for and supporting Trump making the cultural impact to push people into that mindset of decentralization or is it playing back into the same the solutions got to come from Washington and you know you got to vote you know the party line every four years because it's the most important election like I feel like that kind of moves us you voting for Trump moves us away from the the cultural impact that we want to have on people which is to think more local to think more decentral ized and to uh not buy into Political propaganda so those are my thoughts I don't know if we should use our vote as a way to propagandize the public like that's kind of what we're doing right now that's what podcaster for and you know all the books that people have WR you could do anything with that you don't need a presidential candidate for that you know Young Americans for Liberty does that fee does all you know you could just do that um so running candidates man I like I don't know I I would I would look at that a little bit differently um I don't know what do you think Alex yeah I mean I I definitely I definitely understand that I think a lot of it has to do with the motivation of the person that's voting people vote for different reasons and they have different calculations for voting and it does like we've said multiple times on the show depend on which state you're in um I do think ultimately given the reality of the American system yes theoretically we have a federalist constitutional republic but we know that we are actually the world's biggest Empire right and that's just the way that things are and so I do think that there are Libertarians that could go and vote for Trump because they believe that ultimately the policy conclusions that his administration will come to would lead to more decentralization in the long run so I definitely think you can make that calculation and that that would be a fair inference um so again I guess it just a lot a lot of it just depends on on on your mentality as a voter and what you're hoping to get out of your vote I mean Dave I totally agree with you on that like you're you're our vote like one vote is not going to change the culture what we're doing right now changes the culture building relationships with people and having friendships with them and talking to them and helping them work through these issues that's what changes the culture not casting your one vote for your one vote in but 200 million for but in those but in those conversations when you tell people how you voted that's that's part of that equation isn't it like I feel like if if I'm telling people that I think the system is uh you know been designed to work against us that I think the solution's local that I I I don't identify with republicanism or the Democratic party and and all that but then they know at the end of the day oh I still voted for Donald Trump it's almost like they think I'm just a quirky Republican it's kind of what my fear is you know what I mean and they're going to be like oh okay Jacob's got some you weird Fringe ideas but at the end of the day he kind of votes the same way I do so they're not really going to be intrigued to look any closer whereas when I have conversations with people um you know my friends and family uh right or left and they hear I'm not voting for either of the of the two major party candidates that opens up the door for more conversations especially when they hear like I've been able to flip things around to be like hey I'm thinking about voting for this Chase Oliver guy because even though I kind of hate a b and c over here you know X Y and Z you know like the war the fed and uh um like the the the war on drugs like I think he's really spot on I think those are things that really matter um so I don't know like I guess I might disagree with what you're both saying there I think like okay yeah does one vote make a difference to the result no but like your vote and how you talk to people I agree yeah it's about building relationships and communicating but like part of that is telling people how you voted or how you didn't vote right are you are you worried about the way that it'll make you feel or the way that people might look at you if you vote for Trump because you know the stigma that comes with that because I understand that that's very close to white guilt that's like Republican guilt you come from like I'm not really no I I mean I wouldn't be worried about it because I don't like like my I'm pretty sure 95% of my family and church congregation and non- libertarian circles would be voting for Trump but you kind of rebelled against that okay like so smz he lives in like a rural area so that's like he grew up in that his dad was a pastor so he kind of rebelled against that and it's kind of like I live in like a a blue area so like the libertarian culture here is more conservative because it kind of just like goes against the the grain right um but I would just say this man if you're talking to people about like just say you know if I went up to somebody at the table The Family Table and was just like I'm going to vote for Trump for the first time I bet you that some of the people at that table would be like why would you do that Trump's such a loudmouth buffoon I would go yeah but and then I would read that list of things that he said he was going to do I would and I'll say this too you know you guys I'm sure you've read Spooner you know your Constitution we can row down with constitutional conservatives we can get down with anarchists and and there's so much common ground that you wouldn't even be like picking stuff apart right so that's what I would play on I would go like okay I'm gonna vote for Trump because when he came to my convention he said I'm gon to crush these marxists it's a it's a evil Doctrine I'm G to get these deep State criminals and thieves out of government like it was you guys should go back and watch that the last five minutes of it particularly I I would challenge you to find anything more libert Arian from any any former president or chase Oliver and Mike tont just a couple minutes of straight up fire now I know it's just rhetoric it's just a speech that was probably written for him by somebody C you know to cater to us but the fact is that he came and he said it publicly lot I mean so much good stuff dudes so that's why I would say like hey man I'm no I'm not a fanatic do I I don't have a red hat you don't catch me on you know Facebook yelling magga or whatever I'm just strictly utilitarian kind of you know like pragmatic about it I'm like radical in my party like I wanted to have Dave Smith I couldn't have that give me the most radical guy you got but if you're not going to give me that if you robbed me of my protest vote which to me that's what they did uh then I'm gonna have to look elsewhere and that's pretty good some of the stuff that he's been saying lately and by the way we just talked about you know the War on Drugs he just said you know uh National cannabis DM you know he's not even a guy who does any drugs or drinks or does anything he also said like death penalty for drug dealers though or that that no he definitely he definitely said that and I'm sure that you know I mean keep an eye on the guy but I'm pretty sure he means you know we got to watch the fent andal coming over these guys you know using shipping containers and stuff probably sure I mean yeah some are good people though right there's good people on both both sides very fine people on both sides well and and here here's I think from my perspective the reality is that whether you choose to support Chase Oliver or Donald Trump you're supporting them because you're a Libertarian like it's it's it's ultimately about the principles it's ultimately about the ideas it's ultimately about the policies and the vision for the future and the reality is is that the the the vast majority of American voters are completely ignorant about policy or they maybe only know one or two things about one or two issues that are very important to them they don't think about public policy from a holistic perspective like libert Arians do because their policies are based on nothing more than political power they're not based on principles like us and so for me like living in Kentucky there are a lot of people that are that have a natural libertarian Bend to them and they vote for Donald Trump because in their minds he represents anti-establishment now he didn't run that way he didn't rule that way but he represents anti-establishment tarianism and so or anti- establishmentarian he he represents a a an assault on the establishment and he's just a giant middle finger to the people that are impower and that's the reason why they vote for Trump and then on the left you have people that vote for are going to vote for KLA Harris because they believe that she represents fairness inequality and all of those kinds of things and that's the only reason why they're supporting them so it's all about rhetoric even though neither of these candidates have actually delivered what their voting base expected that they would and I think this is what gives us a great opportunity as Libertarians regardless of who we vote for to say look you like Trump because he's anti-establishment here are the things that Donald Trump has done that have actually been anti-establishment let me show you more or if you're talking to people on the left you can say look you want a more equal and a more just Society here's the way that your candidates have screwed this up let me show you that there's a different way to think about these issues and I think that we can help bring people towards that middle ground and I actually think I mean going back to what Dave was saying I think that like for me if I was going to vote as a Libertarian for Donald Trump all of my friends in Kentucky understand that I am a hardcore libertarian if I went and told them that I was going to pull the lever for Trump they would have questions for me about that but that would also be a plat form for me to explain to them well I'm voting for Donald Trump because I think that in the future directionally this is the best decision that I could make and I think that that would actually open up some conversations that could be productive and push people in my life closer towards the libertarian worldview that we believe everyone ought to have so I do think that Dave to your point there is there is a strategy there that could be effective at bringing people closer into our philosophical Camp I I guess I can see how you could spin uh voting for Trump I I feel like I would just me personally I'd probably not pull it off oh yeah um although so I feel like most of this time I've been maybe a little bit too uh unfair towards Dave I've been I've been punching his way a bit more more often uh but you know I can I can I can punch the other direction too which is you know something Alex I think you'll appreciate um you know you and I have have had a lot of conversations with uh the the paleocons guys like Steven wolf I've had conversations with uh um blanking on his name right now uh uh Andrew uh Wilson um the guy does The Crucible and on the whatever podcast a lot and uh we have our disagreements and we've hashed those out but there also seems to be a contingent on the right who are embracing more of that like anti- interventionist anti-de State anti- surveillance State uh sort sort of you know old Pat you know uh Pat Buchanan style conservatism which still has some issues in my opinion but like I'll take that over you know Ben Shapiro John McCain neoconservatism all day long um and although Donald Trump doesn't strike me as really a paleocon he seems to be as close as we've ever had to like at least not being a neocon style Republican and a lot of the paleocons have been attracted to that so this was sort of what the v's appeal to Libertarians was too like you know we need to have sort of a nationalist Li Li Arian uh Alliance sort of um of sorts which sounds a little bit contradictory maybe to some um but I guess that's perhaps a uh an argument that you might be sympathetic towards Alex that you know maybe we we should be aligning more with the right-wing nationalists right now because they're you know we're we're United against a common enemy um and we can take that as far as it'll go and then you know once we had a point where there's a natural Breaking Point have those you know fight those battles down the road but right now fight the enemy that we can fight in front of us so what what would you say to that yeah I mean I I I don't disagree with that I we were talking on our LCI text thread this week about the way that after um Dick Cheney came out and endorsed KLA Harris Steph wolf our Christian nationalist friend was absolutely destroying the neocons on Twitter and the reality is is that even though Progressive Christians say that they are anti-imperial and anti-colonial like they only support politicians that want to give more power to the American Empire and so some of these paleoconservative types they're actually anti-imperial like they really do want to scale back the American Military presence overseas and they have a lot of values that are very similar to our own in terms of decentralization localized control individual liberties and so I I think that we should be trying to build Bridges with these people we should be saying like look this is what we have in common let us help you let let us help you complete these ideas that you have it's just like with Stephen wolf I I feel like almost everything that he wants could be completed through canon law and as long as people have the ability to freely enter and exit a contract then it's it's totally compatible with libertarian philosophy we just need to try to build those bridges I think that that's really that's a really important job for us to do so I I agree with I'd love to hear what Dave says about that though too I probably agree yeah so I just I think this is something that we kind of it's one more AR argument for voting for Trump like you want Trump to be in off he's G he or Cala is going to be in office right we want him to be there because we will be within two to three degrees of separation from him and this is where our power lies if you can he said and V did too capital L libertarian very specific about that so I mean that could be that could mean Peter teal and that I'm not sure what that that could be good could be bad who knows but um capital L libertarian putting in the cabinet um Nicholas sarar yeah right could be the one I doubt he's already fed I mean well right exactly R um but I think that that's our best bet man just like having people that have his ear and take you mentioned Ben airo dude this guy and his operation and people like that have been controlling the narrative for the better part of 10 15 years on that side so you have to make something better than that you have to make something more appealing yet we have to start seeing you know people that talk about the constit you know Trump's talked about some good stuff he never talks about Liberty man never talks about the Constitution the Bill of Rights and the importance of that um it's usually about kicking ass you know big numbers big polls you know like that that's fine the best yeah the best at everything right I'm not looking I'm not supporting him because I think he's the best and he didn't come to our convention because he thinks we're really cool guys right this is transactional like I want some I want something from him and um so that's what I think we should do put people close by and try and steer him away from the Ben of Heroes of the world and closer to people like Dave Smith and make it cooler make it cooler to look at and he'll want to be around the cool kids that's something you can count on him for no I agree with that I I do want to ask a question if you don't mind real quick Jacob um yeah and this is the one because again it's like we said before I'm I'm not under the illusion uh I'm sure there are some Libertarians out there that are but I'm under No Illusion that chase Oliver is going to win or even really have a meaningful impact on in any state I mean the Libertarians have covered the spread in the spring the swing States over the last couple of Elections it'll be interesting to see how that plays out but ultimately like I I would kind of like to know from both of you like does Trump have an actual chance of winning the election like will the CIA let him become president if he wins The Electoral College that's my question like like because you know after between the assassination and the rush inclusion hoax and everything that that the media has done to try to paint him all of the lawsuits and everything it just I just don't see how I don't see how the powers that be are going to let it happen even if he is fairly elected ahead what do you think Dave all right yeah I would say dude um if that's true if we're operating under the assumption that we have you know there is actually peaceful transfers of power and there are actually different Power sections buying for this control okay um then the people who have been doing this to him and persecuting him and just shot at him they should lose we should make sure of that if that's the if that's the reality then we can't just throw all that in the corner and go well doop you know left right you know basically the same no wait a second like this is ultimate Evil here like if we're operating under these circum these circumstances if you could look at it a different way and I can absolutely entertain the fact that at least maybe since his ear got popped he seems like he's been a little different um his footing is a little different it would be very possible that they got to him and were like hey man we didn't have to miss like you want to be the guy like you haven't heard him talk a whole lot about January 6th lately you know what I mean um I actually heard him use the term like uh altri or hard right the other day you got these people on the hard right you know you've seen the antifa on the left you've got the hard right like he's not he is not what either side thinks he is he is the New York shrill you know commercial definitely agree with that yeah right that's what he is he's not the hard right hard left he will say What It Takes whatever it takes it's why he always does commercials guy for board games credit cards restaurants whatever um that's what he does today so I think he's it's very possible that he is becoming the establishment guy I'll give you guys this I'll pass it off APAC doesn't seem angry that uh Donald Trump is going to be the guy seems like they're actually quite for that so pretty much all you need to know you you steel Bann what my response was going to be which was that I I I can kind of see Alex was concerned but I can see a like the opposite thing going like I don't know like are slopes that damaging to the Secret Service or you know is it cuz sometimes I'm almost wondering maybe the establishment wants us to vote for Donald Trump like I can't tell like there are scops within scops within scops man like it's it's it's hard to like I I want the simulation to be reset because I can't keep up with it anymore uh so that's a really good point man I'm serious I talked about this on SM show a lot like I used to get so I'm an old head I'm 43 I remember the propaganda back in the 90s in the 80s was only American flag waving sorry Rambo Schwarzenegger you know like Superman like all the He-man it was just like masculine America F yeah we are the best number one that changed at a certain point the propaganda went to like demoralizing stuff now it's all the the drag stuff and the lgbtq you know uh America sucks and America is racist and all you know um it's very demoralizing go back to Yuri bref you get you like over Generations you are just broken down and they've gotten us to the point where I'm it feels like you got me yearning just give me that American flag I want to wave it so much like they've they've turned it around so it has maybe spurred on some you know your worries about nationalistic Tendencies and things like that I and absolutely be very uh skeptical about you know the devil coming into your church the government's been coming into churches for you know like 70 years but they really did a number on the Evangelical churches in the 80s and they uh you know effed up the black churches you know in the 60s and you know through the 80s but um you know don't let those guys in because they're they're steering things too those mega churches and whatnot y yeah well I I feel like we've covered a lot of ground here tonight um I feel like we've done a good job at sort of representing the uh the arguments for and the OB objections against both of these candidates and why Libertarians might want to or not want to support either one of them uh I don't know if it's gotten me closer to really making a decision because I again I can really see both sides here and I literally argue with myself and find myself flip-flopping back I I I think at the end of the day what matters is that no matter how any of us vote that we do try to spin what we're doing in the same direction and I I feel like that's what we sort of fostered here tonight was a spirit of like you know what like you know maybe at the end of the day we all three vote the same way or three different ways but what we're all trying to do is channel that towards Liberty and channel that in ways that work off of each other rather than against each other and i' like to see the Liberty Movement do that more often um unfortunately I think some people have uh more than just trumped derangement syndrome I think there's a a bit of uh always even when I disagree with the misus caucus uh there's there's always been a lot of Mis caucus derangement syndrome as well um because every interaction I've ever had with mises caucus people has been like this has been you know people who are very thoughtful who don't even all agree I mean Alex is a mis's caucus guy from Kentucky who is you know at least before this conversation thinking about voting Chase I don't know if Dave's changed his mind he can let us know here in a second um and Dave's thinking more Trump and I'm like I have no clue um so I just think this is all really interesting and hopefully very uh thought-provoking and educational for the audience today um Alex I'm going to give you a chance for like a closing thought here and then Dave and then we'll uh get out of here yeah well one Dave this has been a really fun conversation it's awesome getting to know you and I I've really had a blast tonight so we're have to do something like this again soon um I think ultimately I have respect for people that vote on principal and for people that have reasons for why they cast their vote one of my really good friends in uh 2016 he was a huge Bernie Sanders supporter and instead of Shifting to Hillary Clinton in the general elections when Bernie Sanders lost he voted for Jill Stein because he felt that she better represented his political views I have nothing but respect for somebody like that who's informed and they want to vote for someone that has their principle so whatever you decide to do and whatever you decide to vote for just make sure that you're voting for them for the right reasons I think ultimately that's what really matters well said uh did did Dave change your mind uh Alex or are you still uh well you know I'm probably still going to vote for Chase Oliver but it doesn't matter who I vote for Trump's going to win Kentucky it's just the way it's going to be fair point Fair Point uh Dave go ahead and give your closing thoughts here also uh Alex I should have told you to plug your stuff uh Protestant libertarian podcast go check out Alex's show it's incredibly underrated and I I don't do I have the award for the most appearances on that show or I got to be up there you you were you were number three the uh the running gun battle right now is between l Calhoun from the libertarian Institute and Cody cook but you're you're close I love Lori I got I have not had her on my show yet I need to get her on she she's wonderful one of the smartest people I've ever met yep uh Dave go on and uh and thank you for being here Dave this is your first time on on any of my shows and I appreciate that we'll definitely have to do something uh uh again soon sometime uh but go ahead and uh give your closing thoughts and then you plug your stuff too before we get out of here yeah man uh Jacob I appreciate the invite brother um we've met a couple times in real life before podcast that's way better and Alex thank you man I really appreciate it from you know very thoughtful critiques and U yeah dude you seem like a real good guy and you made some pretty good Arguments for that awful human being so you know if anybody could do it I'm just kidding just kidding um no I uh I'm definitely not here to you know like vouch for Donald Trump so I hope nobody got it twisted like that um and I don't believe that you know my vote has a whole lot of weight to it most of it if I'm talking about I feel like when people talk about their vote in America they feel they're the guy who's been saving up some money and goes to the car dealership to buy a new car and he just wants to be treated like you know royalty when he walks in there because he's a consumer and blah but they they don't really give a like they don't care about our vote especially if we live in Delaware and especially if we live in Kentucky but this is kind of like the good part and dude I do appreciate yeah we we probably are voting for different guys um but it's good to have healthy debate I you know I love talking with Libertarians but it's not you know we agree on enough stuff let's kind of sharpen the steal a little bit there so uh yeah man I appreciate the time and U I'm just trying to keep that Ron paaul Revolution alive man wherever it goes I'm G to just blow on the Embers a little bit if I see him over there I'm going to go over there and just nurture that for a little bit and if it's over here for a minute you'll catch me over there and you know if the Democrats ever become the party of the people again and they flip sides again I'll you'll catch me over there you know that's I I cut my teeth when George Bush was the president you know and the people on the left were talking about you know you know ending Wars and doing the right you know those were the days those were the days man I missed the anti-war laugh they were cool they were cool man and that's why I mean I that's that was my political Awakening after 91 no war no you don't get to murder people we can talk about you know domestic policy after we decide not to murder people overseas but Agreed 100% agree with that right uh yep thank you both oh and uh where can people find you at yeah you can find me on Twitter at Dave versus glad one and uh you can support my YouTube channel I'm trying to get those rookie numbers up tomorrow I'm interviewing Angela mardle so we'll talk about uh some foyer requests and Donald Trump I'm sure and you know all kinds of You Know Drama who knows some some more rallies we got coming up so oh yeah yeah those are coming up well yeah thank you Dave and Alex for both of you uh uh coming and having this this Lively exchange and thank you everyone who tuned in to listen before you off please make sure if you haven't already to like this video wherever you're watching it and subscribe if you haven't uh try to do at least one or two live streams a week here um on these channels so uh and then make sure you go to libertarian christians.com and uh you can find all our articles there and all of our podcasts there as well including uh mine the biblical Anarchy podcast as well as Alex's so uh that's all we have for you tonight um I'll be back here I think very late tomorrow night uh having a conversation with uh some other buddies of mine who are uh going to be a little bit more uh I don't know probably disagree with me a little bit more strongly than the two two gentlemen here with me tonight but it should still be a good conversation that's uh my friend hoodie and uh Jeremiah who's in the comments and then uh next week uh I think it's next week or the week after I'll be hosting a debate on uh Malay if Malay is a an ally or a enemy that's next Saturday there's going to be a hosting a debate on different libertarian perspectives on Javier Malay so that should be pretty exciting so stay tuned for that that's all I got for you guys tonight so uh take it easy keep up the fight live at peace