Zaven Collins' contract, BJ Ojulari's injury, Kyler Murray and the depth chart

rise [Applause] rise this is the rise up sear red podcast all about the Arizona Cardinal and the NFL featuring Insider and Outsider perspectives enjoy the best hour of cardinals talk on the web now here are your hosts Jess root and Seth Cox [Music] helloa Cardinal fans and welcome to the latest edition of the rise up SE podcast the best ARB Cardinals talk on the web I'm your host Jess root from cardswire dcom the USA Today NFL wire site covers of course your Arizona Cardinals and this is one of our normal shows not one of our Cardinal Camp updates with Howard Baler although there will be one of those coming as well Seth Cox from Revenge ofthe birds.com SP Nation Arizona Cardinal side is with me and we have our normal uh week weekly show that will end up being a couple of couple of shows during the week but we're going to keep pumping out the content this is going to be either five episode 574 or 575 it depends on whether uh whether I get this episode out first or whether Howard's uh Camp update from Tuesday uh I get that out instead and Seth um it's it's preseason week one there is there is basically there's two practices left of of training camp at State Farm Stadium uh I went to a couple of practices um next next week they're on the road their only home game of the preseason so we are we're basically there like football is right around the corner and you know now we get to see these guys in live action at least the the non-starters for the most part yeah it's it's that time where it's football but it's not great football but it's better than no football and so uh you know it's just one of those things that we're we're excited man it's it's a good it should be a good season um obviously the biggest thing that you know has already not happened is that we're just we're just waiting and hoping to get through this injury situations and and get into the regular season obviously injuries happen in the regular season all the time too right like it's part of the game it sucks it is what it is but at the at the end of the day we want to get to the regular season and at least see what this team could be um and and unfortunately you know before the season even gets started before even a snap in preseason right we don't get to do that and that's that's unfortunate because one of the guys that you and I were really looking forward to this year to really see what he was and what he potentially could be um after basically a what would you call call it maybe a half a rookie season maybe yeah it was essentially that BJ o jari BJ jari second round pick last year out of LSU um was one of like one was like one of our breakout players to look at this year um was in a perfect spot because he he started getting more playing time late last year was getting productive was healthy all off seon looked great in OTAs in mini camp and looked great honestly in in training camp and a just a just a week after Jonathan Ganon and everyone was talking about how healthy the Cardinals were suddenly they like they put pads on and injury started happening yel the fro hold gets hurt that he's gonna he's back um lots of little injuries it seems but the major major one bjl gardi tearing his ACL oh on Friday he's done for the year uh arguably arguably one of the guys on the defense were you least could afford like he was the guy you could least least afford to lose for the year for any significant amount of time because of how that edge room looks in terms of the pass rush he's the only one that gives you natural pass rushing talent and now you're gonna have to manufacture manufacture that stuff again yeah and it's not just that you're going to have to manufacture it it's and I don't want to sound you know hyperbolic but you you genuinely just don't even know if this is a guy you can count on moving forward right like uh obviously slightly big news that I don't see on our schedule to talk about just so I'll just bring it up uh they they resign Z Collins to a two-year contract extension um very moderate deal I mean were you a little surprised by how moderate the deal was don't I I can't wait to see you know not really because I think Zen understands in terms of the position he plays he hasn't he hasn't more like right he hasn't earned the the pass rusher money and being two extra years and I and it was really the timing was like oh BJ goes down so we gotta make sure we've got Zen here and we've talked about just how I I actually forgot to put this on the schedule one of those things that but yeah we should talk definitely talk about zav because we've talked about it we've known this just how much they love zavin Collins in the building and Zen has the right mentality he's got an I don't I don't know if I believe this stick he's like I you know I grew up in the town that's got no stop lights still got no stop lights so there's a little bit of the the small town uks stick to him about how he talked about his new deal but the truth of the matter is he sort of kind of the opposite in mentality of zah Simmons right Simmons wanted like and I'm okay with that like he wanted to be a star like he wanted to be one of the best players and Zin puts his head down and is like yeah and wanted to be here wanted to be part of it and a nice two-year deal and I I I want to see what the the true numbers end up being but that I think it's a especially when he still hasn't proven anything he you can largely see him as probably a failure at inside backer CU he he didn't stick there and he hasn't yet proven to be um even above average Edge Defender he's just a solid two like right now he's a solid two down player but when it comes to the arguably the most important part of of the edge of producing disruption in the passing game he doesn't do he does all the other things but he sets The Edge really well he's very smart he he's a short tackler in the Run game he in fact coming off coming off of that position his play in coverage is fantastic from that spot and very much like like like what we saw from Hassan reic when they finally moved him to the edge like the troubles and coverage that he had suddenly disappeared because it was a more instinctive I mean more instinctual drop and so that's the next step and now this ends up being an absolute bargain of the deal if somehow he becomes an eight plus sack guy which I think is possible but it just it just you know something we said they love zaven and they proved it by by and and and this is you know only you know now it finally gives um another one of K's first round picks a second contract and and Kyler and Zen yeah and it's funny to think about this but uh um you know it really does set up zavin for the future you know one if he's bust as a um as an edge player and just never really turns into more than you know Matt shaunessy 2.0 obviously a little bit better because he's like you said good in coverage good athlete you know those things but but basically you know a slightly more athletic version of Matt shaunessy um he gets paid probably more than he's worth uh if he starts to break out he's only 27 that contract's up that that that's a uh that's a three foury year you know 7080 million contract and and who knows in in 2027 when he's a free agent right um we could be talking about you know a fouryear hundred million contract for Edge Defenders that are average you know slightly above so so yeah I mean I think it I think it's truly one of those things that it probably works better for Zin right now it in what he has done uh because it's like you said we got to see what the the money actually is but at least there I mean you're going to know that there's some guaranteed money there right and right right he was already getting 2.7 million this year and according to the initial numbers is that there's 11 and a quarter in guaranteed money how much of that is like fully guaranteed or is is called guaranteed because there bonuses that he can be paid later we'll have to wait and see but the fact of the matter is he's getting like he does get additional security than what he had before and he signed through two more years so he's got I'm sure he's getting wouldn't you say probably four million upfront yeah and and probably will have a minimum salary so like his year one pay out will probably be about five and a half million yeah and then so he's doubling his money this year and still is under contract next year and probably his 2025 salary is also fully guaranteed I would bet yeah and and so what that does for him is you know it it basically is a is a fallback like hey unfortunately if you if you don't turn out um you got paid and you got paid probably more than you were worth but if you do turn out you set yourself up to get another you know a big contract at least one big contract and you know if you ever are fortunate enough to talk to guys that play in the NFL or played in the NFL they'll they'll all tell you the same thing they're all looking for that one big guaranteed contract you know there for every guy like second that that second contract now first round picks have it well they do so D honestly he's in a really good spot already financially but you you really cash in in contract two right but you know having zavin you were you were looking at it as like okay we've got we've got the rock now we've got to find somebody that can that can rush the passer and the Hope was that that was going to be BJ o jari and now you know we just don't even know and and it's it's one of those situations where it's just you know it's it's super unfortunate because it's not a guy's fault when he gets injured like I I've always said that you know people always talk about Andre wodsworth being a bust was he a bust I mean the guy can't walk literally like if you ever see him he he can't walk those are those are sad busts is like right they're not Bryant yeah that's a different story but no Andre W when you've got all the talent in the world and your body fails and it's not for lack of effort in this one this isn't like ACL injuries are weird they really are like me just take take Dre Greenlaw in the Super Bowl when he blew out his Achilles he's literally just gonna I'mma run back on the field and snap it it doesn't make any sense like those injuries you C you can't predict them those are impossible to predict no no I mean the only prediction of them now is that they're going to happen because these guys are so trained and you know their their bodies are are so probably probably overdeveloped for yeah musculature overdevelopment and and so they're just probably wound a little tighter than they are but I mean I blew out my ankle last year I'm not an athlete anymore and and it's funny it's it's just a genetic thing based on how my body is like I have incredibly high arches and my feet and the the tendon I blow out it's like 90% of the people that blow out that tendon or are like only 10% of the population like it's just one of those freak things and and so that's that happens you know so a guy like BJ oari it could just be you know a thing where it's just a genetic thing you know hopefully it's not hopefully hopefully this was just a you know a fluke and he's like Tyron Matthew or or Carson Palmer guys that have come back and had not just you know good careers but incredibly successful careers but as Jess said like the the unknown with ACL injuries or or ACL repairs is just so Broad and you know everybody likes to point to and assume like well it worked for this guy you know this guy came back immediately it's like not everybody's the same and and we look at Tyler right and we say like hey everything he's doing right now trending in the right direction that's a that's a good you know and I've even said it on the show like obviously the injury itself is not good but the resulting you know change of of mentality and the way that he has embraced The Grind from it has been you know a a positive in this situation but we still don't know if it means that like he's going to be able to be a long successful career because I mean that's the crazy thing about like a guy like Matthew right like this dude blew his ACL ACL out in 2015 who's still one of the best cover safeties in the NFL and that's after it took a full two years because the Cardinals I mean in 2018 they were like yeah we don't we don't love you anymore like you can come back if we kick a pay cut because that like 2017 he looked completely average but he right no you're 100% right Justin that's and so that's just it like we'll we obviously we want to see what BJ can do and hoping that he comes back and he's healthy but the reality is we just I mean we just won't know until I guess next year at this point but yeah they at least have Zen on the on the roster on the team in the in the lineup for the next three years now you know obviously including this year um and that's you know that's that's big because that is a massive question mark still like we're we know they're excited about zavin they were extremely excited about BJ o jalari but now it's just back to like let's see their starters are are their starters or S Collins and Dennis Gard something now and Gard In fairness led the te sacks six sacks last season um and he is a fantastic player but at the same time he is limited in some things he's not ideal on first and second down he can do it um he can drop into coverage he can do that um but like he's not the guy you want as your for me I want as my third Edge guy because he can play but you you don't have to have that necessarily liability and that leads to because what we want to talk about now is will someone step up who can fill that void and and looking at what they have what can they do outside the market um if you just look at on the roster you've got Gard but now you're if you're expecting him to play 50 to 60% of the snaps or they go by committee like early last season which was kind of interesting last year because before oari was significant part of the rotation that's when they had their best um pass rushing their best sack production um zaven got his sacks early gck mostly had his sacks early dei's four sacks came early in the year but you look at those and you know nobody except for Gard had had any sacks over the last six games of the Season even gardex we We've joked about that wasn't really a sack that was Justin Fields running out of bounds for no gain when GIC was a yard or two away like if he goes forward a a a foot it's not a sack but you want it's you want you look at the roster and there's one player that I think we both look at and you're like I wish he could be the guy because we thought he was going to be that two years ago and that's Cam Thomas but both cam Thomas and Vic Dei de magei who who really kind of had a fantastic start to last year cam was inactive as a healthy scratch the last two of the years um de magei was inactive to the last three games of the year as they were looking at Tyreek Smith and they had BJ o jari i mean cam Smith cam Thomas should be the guy that we're looking at and look at where he's in the dep chart like he's not he's May he's a he's a bubble player right now and I think he makes the roster but BJ jard doesn't get up we don't even know if he makes the team yeah yeah he's definitely you know and you hate saying it in this this manner but he's definitely the biggest benefactor right of that of that injury because seems like he it's given him new life from being you know a five 10% type of guy to make this roster to 50 maybe even higher um you know so we'll see how it goes but right now I mean this this Rost in terms of what they are and what they they have you're just looking at guys that that desperately need to show us something before we can really have an opinion on the situation and and you said it man I mean the idea that you go in with zav Collins and Dennis Gard as your starters is not it's it's not exactly what you you wanted in year two right no I mean it I'm that's nothing against Dennis you just don't want you don't want to have you him to have to be one of your top two and when you look at the roster and you say so they have to go outside of the organization but here's the thing that's a highly unimpressive group like you say trade for Matt judon Pats and judon are having issues right now judon wants to get paid he was holding out of training camp so that's an OP he's also in his 30s he's coming off a year we only played four games and yes he would be expensive now is he worth it I would say he's worth it especially if you have any hopes like if you believe a little bit that this could be a postseason team you you trade a a three for him and then you give him heavy guarantees for two-year deal and then you know if he's productive he can go get paid again I don't know if i' do anything past two maybe three years but I like I am okay with him at judon um he does come with risk he's an expensive risk well it's exactly like you said Jess like he has to be willing to to take that type of contract and and be willing to do that and we just don't know if that's what he's like I mean this isn't obviously the Patriots that we grew up with um but it it is still you know a guy that was built in The Patriot system and and Jared Mayo that judon knows I'm assuming they actually played together probably right like when did Mayo retire I would assume that they're pretty close to playing together but you know it's it is a situation that it just isn't so cut and dry as like hey just trade for this guy but if it's if it's an option I would agree with you I think that's something that you have to explore at least to see if like you can do anything I mean yeah because because the free agent options let's be honest now they did make one move they signed Maris Haynes um if there were ever a move that wouldn't move the needle he's a guy that does it not that he's a bad he's got 14 career sacks he's 30 years old last year he only played in seven games had one sack but in 2022 he played 17 games had had 470 defensive snaps and had five sacks which kind of matches the type of say Dennis Gard type production if you if you had him as that now would he have more could he be if he came in get acclimated can be in that starter role I'll have you know he started two games in his entire NFL career so he's always been a an off thebench kind of guy a rotational pass rusher with 14 career sacks so I don't think that's a bad move but it's kind of like getting the 30-year-old version of um what Victor De mcki or just you know more accomplished right and like you said it just doesn't move the needle I mean it's not a bad move and it's a depth move but it's not going to change anything and and quite frankly the fact that he wasn't a guy that they had pursued with BJ o jalari on the roster is telling that you're like oh we think or we want to see beo jari before we bring in a mares hands right like and so and that's not a bad thing like it's not a bad thing at all it's just you know it just tells you kind of what need to know about Maris Haynes and again it's just the names are unimpressive like yes the one name on here you're like yeah go get him is yanuk andak he's he's not quite dir he's productive but here's the thing have we heard anything about him wanting to be anywhere anywhere in the west and he's the type of player well who knows if he even wants to play for the Cardinals but not just that Jess let me ask you another thing why has he never had a sex contract after he left Jacksonville anywhere literally anywhere so like you know I I wrote about it the other day it's like maybe he is the perfect like oneye like oh oar's hurt well Clowny kind of became that right right because so talented but but maybe like and I'll say this Cardinal are really careful about the guys they bring into this locker room and if he's a if a good like if he's a great pass rusher but doesn't have that team over me mentality I think they're going to rock with so if you could get 12 sacks who's a slightly selfish player who doesn't like who's more me they would rather have the eight sack team player if that makes any sense yeah it makes perfect sense and and and so you know we'll see what happens man I mean this is big injury um and that's saying something for a guy that's really never done anything right like this is a big loss because it it just is more than anything else it's what are they going to do how do they how do they get out of this and how do they make this work uh moving forward Carl Lawson was an absolute bust in New York Charles Harris tius Bowser they all come with injury concerns uh like hey if you want to my Sanders still out there but right he flamed out of here so it's like you want the Cardinals to go do something and really I guess the only one that sort of makes sense is going to trade for Matt judon because as we talked about in the off season The Edge class in free agency for the price that it is is very underwhelming in terms of what you're going to get for the money you're going to have to spend and so closer to the beginning of the year you know yeah it it's could you go get Justin Houston I mean he's Ancient Ancient but if you treat him like Dwight Fen in 2015 so he becomes and you feel good and here's the thing if if Houston can produce anything in a limited role and you feel good about the first and second down play of of of dii and Collins which I think is a good first and second down base unit I'm not against that but everyone wants the Cardinals to do something but you look at the players available and you're like right you're not sure that there's what or if they can do yeah it's a and so you end up because like the moves they're making they're not to replace BJ per se they are depth behind whoever they're going to put in the lineup instead because it's not he's not a better option than his Dennis gek he's he's there may be like Maris hes is probably yeah like I said he's Victor De magei but a little bit older and then then you have to maybe hope that that Collins adds like becomes a better pass rusher that Xavier Thomas shows something that cam Thomas in year two in this defense can show some of the promise he did as a rookie because he's like feels like he's completely flamed out right right exactly and that's kind of how you have to look at it right is that this is a group that they need something but I don't know if there's actually an answer out there for that something coming up next on the rise ofc podcast the best our Cardinal's talk on the web uh we have some news about who's playing and who's not playing in the preseason that's coming up next on Rise ofc red we're back on the rise of Z podcast the best our Cardinals talk on the web Jonathan Ganon told reporters uh media members in attendance uh practice on Tuesday that Kyler Murray would not play in the preseason a move that neither Seth nor I is are surprised about a bit in fact on our show last week we said we didn't think he would uh Ganon says he likes where he's at he wants to have have the best version of himself and let's be honest Tyler if he was going to play at all might have played a series or two this week and maybe two or three next week so for what would come out to 20 game reps the risk of him getting hurt just didn't especially when they have they have a joint practice next week where they can get those same kind of so those live game opponent reps without the risk of him getting hit that's what makes sense to me it didn't make any sense and I think that's completely the trend that you have to go across the NFL now unless youve got a guy that you need to get reps Tyler doesn't need reps this year in this offense because he had half a season last year yeah and and it's one of those situations that as you'll explain shortly they've got a plan in place uh of how to get him important game reps in a much more competitive yet somehow safer environment yeah and that's how let's kind of go down the list now we're going to go through the both sides the ball who we think we play or not um running back would you guess if Kyler's not playing Connor's not playing is he no James Conor can't see the field in there that doesn't make sense at all especially a guy who does get hurt and running back you want like this is where you give Trey Benson those carries this is where you get Amar Amari Dem Marcado those this is where you give Michael Carter those chances because Michael Carter is not making this roster you give him a chance to make make another team um the wide receiver room is interesting because what I think Marv needs reps I don't think he'll play much but I don't think there's anyone in the receiver room you're just like no you don't need to play I think Marv gets limited reps like he gets the starter treatment along with Michael Wilson and Greg dorch um but the rest I think will play I think yeah and you know it'll be interesting how they decide or how much they decide to deploy Marv uh not just because obviously he needs to get some acquaintance with the NFL game and speed but also um how do I put this delicately how much do you want him to have to deal with with Desmond rder and Clayton tune right like that's true that's true well and also also this how much do you want him going against non-starters who are battling for the roster on the other side of the ball right exactly and it's just you know I assume I I wrote today I think one maybe two series that's my in game one and if if anything he'll do the same in game two and then obviously he won't be anywhere near the field in game three yeah offensive line well it I I think on the tight ends Trey don't don't put Trey on the field let the other guys obviously tip needs the Reps Elijah Higgins who's you know one year into playing tight end needs game reps um and literally everyone else they're battling for spots on the roster I'm guessing no one on this the projected starting offensive line will play I don't think will I don't think Jonah Jonah will I don't think will will yell the I don't see he especially he's just now coming from the injury and I doubt if Brown does so I'm I'm guessing none of the starting line offensive line because they kind of know who they are so I'm guessing none of them will play by the way we probably need to mention that uh yela frol didn't die so everybody calm down I know that the I mean that's the hard part about train training camp and and you know our our media does a a fair job and and you know I don't hold them exactly responsible but it it does set off a panic right like when a guy gets taken off the field and even as many times as as you say under his own power you know walked off on his own blah blah blah and then he's not there the next day it's like it's like oh no oh no and so yelda is back but as just said like why Evan Brown need needs the Reps on the line he needs the reps with the guys like just leave EV Brown in there let him get some reps at at Center let him get some reps at left guard and the rest of these guys you know maybe you can tell me Jonah Williams need some reps but I mean he's a veteran at this point like that that's why I'm like they they're going to limit those and and especially the ones they know are their starters I think they don't need it and and especially again their having two competitive joint practices with the Colts next week their starters can get those reps and I think they will get the majority of those reps next week as well um and so you kind of do that and then you game plan a little bit for for the Colts that way and you play your backups on the defensive line I think the only two that won't see um action or Justin Jones and balal Nichols everyone else I think is on the table Darius Robinson needs those needs those reps um LJ Collier it needs those reps Dante Stills needs those reps and then everyone else behind them need the Reps because they need to battle they they need the opportunity to show what they can do speaking of uh zav Collins earlier do you think zav sees the field at all [Music] um I would say he needs him but my guess is do you think that do you think I don't think I don't yeah after BJ got hurt I don't think zaven or Dennis will play and then Kaiser's probably a no I would guess I bet Mack plays I bet ma plays especially because um here's here's the part that I think here's the little nonse secret um based on what I saw on Saturday's practice um we're probably gonna see Mack Wilson on the edge quite a bit and so um we're gonna see Chris Barnes or Owen Papo or when they go to or the three safeties or however they decide to do that that one of their options is going to be ma Wilson off the edge who actually played quite well down the stretch um getting a lot of the edge reps last year for the Patriots right so yeah so I think you're uh I think you're right like the the other question you have is like how do they how do they disperse these reps in in this game because as you said as much as you want these guys to start getting reps at the same time we're talking about you know guys that have played a lot guys that have had a lot of success um you know we know that they're getting into a new system so that that means we want to see something from them but at the same time it's like we've talked about this that that um depth is is still razor thin razor now the the high-end depth is obviously much much better right right but the yeah the full depth is just not ideal so yeah we'll see kind of how that that plays out um the defensive backs um I don't think sea Murphy Bund don't play Garrett Williams might not play because he's hurt but after that you I I hope Max Melton comes back because he he's been out with an injury but I wonder if he'll get any if he'll be able to practice under this week to get in the game star Thomas will play their guys are young enough that they're gonna do and I think then you won't see Buddha Baker or Jaylen Thompson like I this is the list of guys in my mind they're not playing in this game especially with the joint practice next week and yeah I mean why why even put Buddha and Jaylen on the field like you you you got rabbit you got Andre chash and then you've got a bunch of guys that need to earn things right yeah and so if you take those guys out and you kind of treat it even that that still gives you plenty of guys to because you know you normally play with 47 players and maybe 46 45 getting the game and so you you still got plenty of guys if you've got if you've got 15 or 16 you're just saying no aren't playing you've still got you know 70 that you've got available to play so you can you still got reps to do that even though you're trying to ease them in and try not to get them hurt um but yeah I I those are the guys I don't expect to see hit the field um in the preseason all that means that means we're going to get we're going to see Trey Benson we're g to see amard marcot we're going to see a lot of Tony Jones at running back we're gonna see we're gonna see a lot of Andre bellia we're gonna see these guys Xavier Weaver is gonna get a lot of playing time um so yeah this is kind of what you want to see especially the starting jobs is think you get you have guys play if they're battling for a starting job but if if you know that I mean just let's let's not let's not worry about it let's not worry about it it's year two in the system um yeah and so this this year's different and and Mar like I want him to get reps but starter reps like he and Michael Wilson and and Greg dorch will get a couple of Series in there like okay that looked good come on out and then you give and then you give you know Desmond and Clayton the the the the back end guys to throw to and you know there there is this train of thought that you might have even the starting offensive line go a series or two for the like so that you can see Desmond or Clayton behind the starting line but even then I'm like no no don't do that that's my idea coming to next on the r here podcast Mr caral talk one last segment to talk about we're going to discuss the depth chart the depth chart and what we're surprised about or not that's coming to Next in rise up here red we're back on the riseup here podcast the best Cardinals talk on the web and the Cardinals released their first depth chart of the year um on Monday with their game release and I don't even know if you would consider any of them a particular surprise um other than you know for me the surprises were one that Trey was ahead of Amari TR B was ahead of deari De Marcado and then honestly and none of it surprised me because I get why Dem Marcado is behind Benson because he's kind of more less backup running back than he is third down Back special teams yeah and and he seems to be the guy you know we talked about it last week that has really embraced his his role and you know I since we've gotten on this this podcast uh Josh wfist uh tweeted out an an interesting anecdote about zav Collins you know somebody we mentioned earlier but but what they look for right and what they want and just kind of um why a guy like zavin is so important to this team and and you look at the words that that Jonathan Ganon talked about and you know he's he was talking about before he got his fifth year option declined and you know he said I'm G to be here every day I'm GNA work on my game blah blah blah and Ganon response was you know I appreciate that about him I really do because you want guys like that that can put on their blinders and go to work and be team first guys that's who we want around here and that kind of to just finds Amari D Marcato right like yes what whatever you ask me to do coach I'm I'm going to do it like I I don't care I I genuinely don't care I I'll just I'll do it and and you know again when we're talking about third fourth running backs that's the mentality and the attitude you have to have and and you talked about it last week man like a guy that wasn't even a starter in college like that's and he's a for the roster like the way you the Ganon talked about him last week he's a lock for this roster that's crazy right and and again it just it tells us everything we need to know about what they're looking for as cliche and silly as it sounds they're looking for football guys like guys that care about playing football that all they want to do is play football and and that's what these guys who these are and what they want to do and and so it makes everything else kind of easy and fall into place it I was interested in seeing I know the backups the starters make sense but when you go to the backups how they guys they have guys listed I'm like you can't trust it all the time because like say you've got the backup center behind yelda fro hold is listed as John gains though we know that the actual backup center is Evan Brown who's a starter at left guard so they don't list things perfectly like like that and the way they list positions because you've got like the well to be fair didn't uh didn't Jonathan gon even say don't pay attention to that yeah he did say that he did say that on Tuesday we have to pay attention to and here's the thing um here's this here's kind of the secret on the depth chart because it's not the coaches putting it together it's the media relations department that put it together so they see what we see and maybe get a little input like Mark Dalton might get a little input from Jonathan Ganon but nothing significance I I did find it interesting that where Z Jones was listed was the backup slot um although we we all know that he's probably he is wide receiver four and you talked about on the last show he's a perfect fit it all three receiver positions but I I find it interesting that like where he's put at is in fact at backup slot well and I think it it goes and speaks to what kind of we've talked about is that he's had an excellent camp and it's not as cut and dry as like oh Greg dorge has been here he's our wide receiver three it's just that Greg dorge has outperformed Z Jones who's been performing extremely well in his own right so you know it's one of those situations that you're like this isn't a problem this is an actual good thing um and again we talked about it last week it's it's not something that we even really discussed last year because it wasn't something that was real right like why don't she were depth we were like oh gosh this is bad every week and and now it's like hey we have a guy that we're super comfortable with being our X our our Z or our slot at any point um you know obviously ideally he wouldn't be that but uh you know if if it comes down to a game or two no big deal like we're fine right everybody's happy and so those are those are hard things to quantify because you rarely rarely see that the the defensive line the the the three player starter the three players listed right behind them I think that what tells you is that you know LJ Collier listed as the backup nose even though he's not really a nose but the fact that they put him there ahead of kyus Tonga I think kind of tells you I I think with the defensive line the depth chart tells me a little bit because on my last two um depth chart on my 53 man predictions I have those six guys are the guys that are making the roster and the fact that they kind of I know that belal can play nose and so Roy Lopez continues to be kind of like lucky fotu last year like surprisingly he's just there lucky his role grew and was he was just starting nose tackle and it feels like that that Roy Lopez has kind of gotten the Ley fotu role and that now Tonga probably is I'm gonna call him firmly on the bubble because obviously Darius Robinson is gonna make the team uh I was a little unsure about LJ Collier as a potential guy um but he wants to be here he was their best interior rusher last year at the at this point that there was a lot of excited about excitement about him then you got Dante Stills who who I think is firmly kind of established himself on the team yeah and I think Stills is kind of the perfect example of what we talked about a little bit earlier and that like I don't know if he's ever going to turn into a you know a guy that that signs a a big you know $10 million year contract all Nicholls or or Justin Jones right but I do think he's a guy that can carve out a career where he's on NFL rosters for 8 to 10 years um and makes you know a a handsome amount of money over his career because he's he has the juice to be a pass rusher I don't know if he can consistently be in every down player but that's not a bad thing right no if if you're a rotational three to four sack defensive interior guy you're going to play in the NFL for a while and and you know I think he's starting to embrace that role and and if he does that he's a guy that you know in in two years or you know after next season you know they come to and they say hey here's a two-year you know $5 million deal and and everybody's happy and and you know joy joy and all that stuff and so yeah um but yeah I think I think it's those six Tonga is the interesting one if they end up keeping seven but with again with that oari injury it kind of throws a wrench in that because now you might have to keep you know seven outside backers just to just to give yourself figure out to figure out who it is although the the fact that Mack Wilson can play off the edge Darius Robin can kick outside does give them a little bit I I think that we we and honestly you know we didn't mention Darius Robinson his Pres also I think is helpful and and maybe perhaps that is how his role increases a little bit this year is that you see him kicking outside more than we would have anticipated him in his rookie season right so it'll be interesting um but I think for for now you have a really you know you have a you have a decent group that needs a little a little help but if if you can if Darius Robinson turns into what they are hopeful he can be you could be looking at something that's very uh very successful moving forward yeah yeah at quarterback like inside linebacker nothing surprising there it's Kaiser Mack back behind him is Chris Barnes ow and Papo and that's fine whatever outside linebacker the things I take away Victor De mcki is listed ahead of Cameron Thomas uh um you know Dennis gardex up front and you've got Jesse Lett ahead of Xavier Thomas I'm real interested to see how that plays out I know Thomas is you know he's a rookie f a day three rookie at that so I'm not looking too deep in that the only the only one I look at I'm like Vic over cam I'm like okay that's that's what I see in that because they both same play that same position I would I would say that cam is like if you're listing them like their top four is Zin Dennis Vic and cam before you go to leetta that said the fact that Vic is ahead of Cam it still says a lot to me right right exactly at cornerback Starling Thomas is listed ahead of Max Melton as as a starter at cornerback uh this is kind of How It's been in training camp though you know early in Camp Max Mill before he got hurt he was getting first team reps so he and star were were were alternating or sharing first team red Shawn Murphy bunting Garrett Williams uh ke Clark ahead of Elijah Jones third round pick um you got dvad Wilson listed as as Williams backup in the slot and Jaden Davis behind him not that I expect him to do even be a consideration but ke Clark ahead of el Jones that tells me something right now and we we both know that cornerback room is going to be interesting because how many are they G to keep because if they keep six you're shorting another position somewhere and if they keep six does that mean like who's out does do you keep Bobby price for special teams or does ke trell stay CU star Thomas really kind of looks like he's got the spot unless unless he's just Christian Matthew again which I don't think he is right exactly at safety nothing surprising there rabbit and Andre sasher are the two backups behind Jaylen and Buddha after that it doesn't really matter although interesting Darren Hall who's listed on the roster as a cornerback is listed at safety and that I I will say this when I was back in OTAs in mini camp that's where I saw him working he wasn't working with the corners he was working with the safeties but he still list as a corner on the roster as the return Specialists uh dorch and DJ Dallas are both listed as the co- number ones with Amar de Marcado and Chris Moore behind them at kick return and Xavier Weaver the undrafted rookie receiver listed as the backup punt returner so we'll see how that goes um I I do fully anticipate DJ Dallas will have a prominent role in the because dorch especially going to play I think it'll end up being definitely DJ Dallas plus another player on the kickoffs G have two back there and then I'm unsure whether it will be dorch or DJ as the punt Turner and maybe if they keep six receivers that's how Weaver makes his spot on the roster is that okay you can be punt guy right exactly and other than that I think that'll kind of wrap up this Edition of the show um I Seth and I will probably sit tight on a show until after the preseason opener uh till next week and we'll probably kick into the two shows a week for us in the meantime we will have more from we will have more from Howard balls are this week um we'll see about next week uh with the but we've got more from Howard this week next week we'll be back and after that we're getting close to regular season that wraps up this edition of the show that's Seth Cox I'm just rot thanks for listening as always always we'll be back again soon thanks for listening to the latest edition of the rise up sear red podcast listen to previous episodes and 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