The brilliance of Pachinko, and champion eaters Chestnut and Kobayashi go head-to-head

Intro [Music] I have rarely heard people talk about a TV show the way that they talk about Pinko the second season of the show just came out and what I love is people are practically tearing up when they tell you about it today on the podcast why Pino is one of the best shows on TV right [Music] now I'm alamin Abdul Mahmud this is Pachinko commotion okay look one of the more one of the more critically acclaimed TV shows in recent years is Pachinko it is based on the best-selling book by Min Jen Lee and it tells the story of how the Japanese Occupation of Korea resonates across three generations of a Korean family we're talking about them navigating war and loss and love and migration let me just play you a tiny little bit of the trailer [Music] season two of Pachinko just kicked off on Apple TV plus I spoke with Michelle Cho and Rachel ho about the show and the way that it handles all this emotional weight of its subject matter for anyone who's not read the book or watched the show so far here's Michelle talking about the premise of Pachinko so this is a story is kind of part of this Grand tradition of this historical epic and it's focusing on an ethnic minority group in Japan um which is referred to as zichi so Koreans ethnic Koreans in Japan mostly but members of this family moveed between Korea Japan and the US and so it's also a trilingual story which is really interesting and it's part of what's so unprecedented and unique about this this particular story um so yeah Pachinko for those people who are not familiar with the the word is um a kind of Po it's a popular game kind of a popular form of gambling in Japan um it's a game that's like a kind of cross between pinball and slot machines and so the story is called pachenko because it's this metaphor for the ways that the characters are kind of like flung about like the pinball the little pinka Balls by circumstances by history by you know kind of geopolitics and yet we are never disconnected from the kind of feelings and experiences and deeply personal um kind of emotional landscape of these characters so yeah I don't know if that's too much but hopefully it PES people's interest that's not too much at all can you actually can you just root us a little bit more because you mentioned sort of a grand sweeping history can you just root us a little a little bit in the historical relationship at this point between Japan and Korea in 1915 what is going on then yes exactly so um so the story spans 1915 to 1989 which is like most of the 20th century 20th century is really tumultuous um in East Asia Japan has an Empire it's kind of learned from observing European Empire that it needs to kind of get into that game and modernize Asia through its Imperial exploit and So Korea the Korean Peninsula is a Japanese Colony so um it does it's it's a a period of time where um yeah the the Korean Japanese relationship is really fraud because there's clearly a sense of discrimination a kind of racism in interasian racism that you see a lot in the show um and yet there's also this like strange thing happening where the position of Koreans shifts around there supposed to kind of think of themselves as loyal to Japanese empire as part of that Imperial project but then they're continuously uh discriminated against and they have limited opportunities because of their ethnicity so that's kind of what we see going on I I I love the idea of a sort of a grand epic that is sort of being projected onto the the canvas of colonialism because that that s like a rich sort of tapestry and onto that Rachel comes the show comes Pinko and know again told across multiple generations of families it also has some serious heavy weights when it comes to well-regarded Korean actors you've got Oscar winter un Jang and you also have e Minho who is an OG K drama actor right to of all the actors that we see in the show want maybe want to talk about some of the characters here what's the character that you follow the most closely that you've fallen in love the most with so Anna wise Naomi is a really easy answer for that because she's stunning she's amazing I love seeing her career kind of blossom into what it is uh with Shogun you know before uh recently and Emmy nominations and everything like that for me though the character that I really was probably the most compelled with the one that I was following the closest with a Han I'm going to Butch this thing I'm so sorry but Han Kumai uh which was the Korean grandmother who Solomon was trying to convince to sell her property to uh shiffley I just thought the actress her name's Park Jin she just created she she portrayed this idea of like the weight of all of the Discrimination all of the trauma all of the challenges that she'd gone through um in her lifetime but then also the generations before her the generations that are going to come after her and I thought she did it so well and that story line in particular I just found really really touching and the one that I kept being like let's go back to her let's go back to her uh but I mean all around some really really tremendous performances um throughout the entire show and every charact it's really interesting cuz every character every timeline you kind of want to visit you don't want to be like I don't really care about this one like you're you're into all of them and I think that's pretty unique for a show um that is as Multiverse if you will as this one yeah you quite often hear that like when when when shows are sort of span Generations people have attachments to certain time periods and not others you've never really hear that about pachenko no one's like I don't want to spend any time in this particular time period Michelle what about you who's the most compelling character that you find yourself you know keeping returning to so I think this is kind of a generic response but it is truly heartfelt on my part um I just love sja who is kind of she's the protagonist she's the character um that you see played actually by three different actresses because um she takes us through she's the point of continuity between the show's opening in 195 like not long after Japan has you know annexed Korea the Korean up through 1989 um which is incidentally you know the end of the Cold War and a kind of you know the this is Multiverse um as Rachel just said because it's almost unimaginable to think about one person one lifetime um spanning all these different places and just ways that the world exists um but that is one of the key aspects of the show it's why I think it's so novel because if you're doing a historical epic you usually kind of stay confined in this kind of Elsewhere you know land in the past but this show really kind of moves us around um these timelines and it kind of forces us to integrate our understanding of the world past and present Rachel I've not yet started Pachinko but the the I know I hear you I I made the same face that's totally a reasonable face to give me but when I was talking about the show with one of our producers Jane Vancouver then she was like I've never look at rice ever the same again and and and and I she said this somewhat tearfully so let's talk about the way that food plays a role in the show particularly rice do you want to talk about that and the themes that it sort of connects to so rice is life right like rice is life rice in Asian countries but not just Asian countries African countries Latin countries like it is a staple you do not have a meal without rice there is always doesn't matter what you're eating there will be some white rice being cooked and I think there is uh sometime I think the maybe the mistake that people make of just saying well rice is rice rice is not just rice rice is very different depending on which country you go to how it's cooked How It's Made and specifically within Asian countries like there is Korean wild rice there's Japanese sticky rice there's the CH Chinese kinden of rice the basmati rice in India you know like we have so many different sorts and anybody who has moved away from home and lived somewhere else for a little while the second that you taste something from home it takes you back it gives you that kind of warm cuddly feel it makes you really comforted in the context of Pachinko though everything that is going on to be able to taste the rice of your home country of your Homeland it represents not just the Comforts of home but it's also everything that was kind of taken away from you everything that you're being persecuted against and in the bowl of rice you find a connection with other people where you know in with the Koreans in ping they're all being discriminated against by the Japanese simply for being Korean and so when they're able to meet other Koreans and kind of share that bowl and have that comfort of home it's like an acceptance like you're safe here this is your safe space and all through a bowl of rice because like I said rice is life and it's it's an it's a really interesting touching point that they put in the show of something kind of seemingly simple seemingly benell but like it really does resonate throughout I think everybody when you see that scene when you see that scene of of sunja eating the rice as an older woman and recognizing instantly and there's like an unspoken thing of ah like I know what this rice is it's really it's super emotional and I hope one day elamine you will get to that episode and you will watch this because I feel like you will be moved just as anybody else would because it's it's truly you know quite a remarkable feat of Storytelling I think from the show's creators to to to put so much meaning in something so simple and something so everyday Rachel I don't stand a chance of making it through that episode because I was getting T hearing you describe that let alone experiencing the thing but also I I have to say like Michelle one of the things that people talk about with the show is the emotional journey of watching the show is the the idea that this show carries a lot of emotional weight do you want to just describe what it feels like to watch an episode of go yes um well so I will put this in very kind of specific terms of myself as a member of the Korean diaspora it has a particular emotional weight for me because everything that I'm seeing kind of depicted in the show um historically is a history that has also affected my family has kind of made it it possible for me to be here and so there's that you know like the the show does a really good job of of weaving together the historical and then again you know the kind of characterological personal sort of emotional and um it does this in so many different ways and it integrates you know like archival footage of you know news and and kind of a historical vision of of what's going on it's really telling you this is like a big Collective story but also very personal one um but yeah there's also lots of points of connection with you know know any immigrant story any immigrant story is one about the factors that have led people to leave home and it's going to have to do with personal desires Ambitions um Family Dynamics within you know a nuclear family or extended family but it's also going to have to do with large social and political changes that are occurring right so yeah um one thing I'll say is that you know as a a avid watcher of Asian melodramas as Asian TV series I feel like this show is so um it's really well balanced because it hits some of those notes and it brings in a kind of familiarity if you watch you know kramas or C dramas or you know you watch um this kind of uh yeah storytelling um it'll be familiar to you but it's not so much in the melodrama territory I don't think that it's going to alienate folks who maybe are not used to that kind of emotional tenor in the entertainment that they choose to partake in I was going to say Rachel there's something to the idea that you know as you're watching the show a show that is dealing with a lot of real life human tragedy there is this risk of sort of uh veering towards the melodramatic because you are dealing with these like large sort of grand sweeping um emotions how do you feel about the way that Pinko handles like the sheer emotional weight on on the story that it's trying to tell I think they've done like like Michelle said they've kind of found that perfect balance they found that ability to tell a story a historical story that is filled with a lot of emotion a lot of people will watch it and you know it's it's kind of hard to almost describe how emotional these these bits are um for in terms of the history of it all but when I heard that they were doing the show I was like I don't even know if I want to watch it because I thought it might just be a little bit too heavy I I didn't know if I was really prepared for it I heard kogata and Justin Chan were going to be directing um all the episodes in the first season so that gave me a lot of reassurance because those two in my opinion are two of probably the best storytellers that we have right now and probably don't get the credit that they deserve so I'm glad that they have this opportunity to get that so I'm not surprised that they've been able to kind of balance that weight and balance that and you know the thing is though with this section of History especially between those two countries you don't have to do a lot to make it dramatic like it was a horrific time in it's a really dark period of of the world history um but especially in Asia and it's it's one that you know you could literally just play it out from the textbook and it would be this emotional you don't have to add Hollywood notes onto it or you know Asian notes Asian dramatic notes which can be very dramatic let's be fair now you don't have to do that because it is what it is uh I think that is a perfect place to leave it I promise Rachel and Michelle the minute that I leave today I'm going to go watch the first episode in the meantime I appreciate you guys being here thank you so so much for watching this and thank you so much for being here to talk about it I appreciate your time thanks for having us Eline thanks Michelle Cho is an assistant professor of Korean film and media studies at the University of Toronto and Rachel ho is a film critic at excla magazine season 2 of Pachinko is available right now on Apple TV Plus [Music] I'm alamin Abdul Mahmud this is Chestnut vs. Kobayashi commotion okay we're going to switch gears now and I I hope you have the stomach for this yesterday we had the ultimate showdown between two of the greats Joey Chestnut versus takaro Kobayashi they are giants and legendary rivals in the world of competitive eating Kobayashi ASI came out of retirement to face off against the world record holder in a competition that was streamed live on Netflix yesterday Chestnut Kobayashi both with personal records but the 16 time Champion is going to walk away and winner there's 10 seconds to go as the fans count it down 3 2 one Joey Tesla didn't just win Joey Chestnut set a brand new world record which was 83 hot dogs in 10 minutes 83 hot dogs and 83 buns to be specific don't forget the buns Matt Hart was watching yesterday he's been watching contest like this since he was a teenager and he's back with us now Matt Hart welcome back to the show friend how's it going man listen I'm happy that you're here talk to me about the emotions that you felt as you were watching this yesterday uh well I would have to say that I felt mostly sad and gross watching it okay uh uh in the sense that this was kind of like hot dog quality entertainment like they kind of threw everything into it there was a bunch of these like little mini contest where it was like chicken wings and then there was watermelon and all of the stuff was there sure to to distract us from the inevitable that happens at all uh competitive food eating contest which is this pigula likee spectacle of wet meat being ingested by two men and that's a hard sell do you want to talk about the history between Kobayashi and Chestnut because like these are two of the greats at competitive eating but also that has to be qualified a little bit we got to just talk about their Dynamic what is their Dynamic the two of them yeah I mean not to take away from these guys and what they accomplish like I mean this is very physically impressive to do this I mean the last time they met was 15 years ago ago so uh they already had a history before that uh Joey was Champion but um I think a lot of this stems from when this sport kind of kicked off sport kind of kicked off for theks yeah in in in the kind of iteration that we know it now um it was it was kicked off at Nathan's where they held it yesterday and um you know America was like USA let's eat the most hot dogs and Japan came in and was like Noah no no no and cry and so uh when when kobashi came in actually it was the top three that year were Japanese competitors yeah and Kobe yashi came in and just crushed it so I think um Joey Chestnut was like this answer to this wave of uh Japanese um competitive eaters and he was supposed to be you know the American Savior for it and and and he became that like that's there's no there's no underselling that he became that like the for the past I don't know how many years 15 years 16 years or so Joey Chestnut has kind of been like synonymous with Fourth of July for a lot of people like that's the day that you watch Joey Chestnut beat everybody and they're not even close but you want to talk a little bit more about like the why are Kobayashi and Chestnut such bitter Rivals like what's the Rivalry there well I mean in any Again Sport uh you when you've got the two elite players the you know the Jordan and bird there's always going to be uh I I mean it's ridiculous just Michael Jordan Larry Bird Okay continue yes yeah yeah yeah the exact opposite um they uh yeah they're they're they're undeniably um amazing competitors and the way they they can contort their bodies is uh unbelievable and there's a lot of money on the line at some of these contests yeah 100 Grand right you can win substantial amount of money for yes yeah and I mean God knows what else they got on top of it mustard sponsorships who knows um but yeah so I mean there's always going to be competition in that sense there's been cheating allegations you know Joey ches not always calls him out for being a crybaby in he's got injuries there was a a jaw injury that he had sustained uh so you know regular kind of Trash Talk sport Trash Talk well can we just say Kobayashi came out of retirement for this is it true that he doesn't even like competitive eating like what's going on there so yeah it sounds like he retired because it had wreaked havoc on his body obvious ly like no one should eat that many glizzies in one sitting um but he um he eventually no he he eventually got to a point where he said he couldn't experience hunger like traditional people do and really regrets his relationship with food now so I hope he saved his money I hope so too it sounds like he doesn't want to do this going forward gotta ask you like here's a technical question cuz like I a big dude and honestly I can eat one hot dog and I'm like that's that's it we're we're good I sure don't want to experience more of this feeling uh Joey Chestnut put down 83 yesterday not a big guy Kobayashi not a big guy either like what is going on there how do they do it well I'm with you I'm I look kind of like a bag of a bag of milk covered in cinnamon with my shirt off so uh I know what it's like to be a larger gentleman but uh it's not here's the thing you worry with the skinny guy you always worry about the skinny guys when like they're the threat is what you're saying absolutely like when it comes to eating that's why lived experience is that the skinny guys can really put it back and it's it's here's the interesting thing about this pseudo sport is that um it's like uh it's it's the first kind of self-taught sport so there's not a lot of technique we're only going back in a in this since you know 30 40 years kind of thing so a lot of these guys it's trial and error and learning from their pre previous uh previous competitors and so you see stuff like the water which they they sometimes they dunk the the the the hot dogs in the water they weren't allow they weren't allowed to do that at this competition right they weren't allowed to pour the water on the hot dogs at all that was I think strategically just to for grossness sake because we knew it was going to get gross but when you add the water in there it becomes some kind of mouth stew and it's they even weighed what they didn't swallow at the end I was like I'm sorry this is always going to be a circus side show I I thank you so much for using the grossest possible way to describe that I I mean that's it means a lot to me look aside from crying a winner which we did toey Chestnut Joey Chestnut um I sort of talked about this very romantically um after the win yesterday he was like kobayash he's the one who really pushes me and sure enough he pushed him to a new record uh Joey Chestnut said he's always been chasing more than 80 hot dogs and he did it he got to 83 yesterday which is an unbelievable sentence to say out loud but I just want to bring this back to the world of entertainment here because there's a lot more writing on this for n Netflix what is at stake for the streamer that is doing more and more uh Live Events like this I think this is a trial run or one of many trial runs that they're doing for uh the Tyson fight uh this is this is dabbling Mike Tyson Jake Paul yeah yeah yeah Mike Tyson Jake Paul that's gonna be a huge draw for them uh and I think they're doing a lot of um ramping up to some of these really big live sporting events and you saw stuff like I even I've been on here to talk about that comedy show kill Tony there's talks that they might be doing some kind of live thing with them oh wow um so yeah Netflix is really looking to get into to live stuff here and I think that's a really low stakes way of doing it like if a hot dog contest goes wrong who cares yeah if the Tyson Paul fight goes wrong it's probably billions riding on it yeah we've we've also talked about a little bit of this um on the show about how they have the contract to broadcast um WWE's Raw Monday Night RAW live for the next like five years or so um starting in the next year so you spend all that time you know teaching people that you could stream content whenever you want and then suddenly you're like actually appointment viewing is back we're doing they reinvented television it's incredible mtart thank you so much for your time man I appreciate you being here always happy to help man uh I'll see you next time we're talking about glizzies oh man I don't feel good saying that word at all so I'm a Gizzy Gladiator thank you for your time dude I appreciate it Matt Hart is a regular Hero on commotion he's also a member of the and the Russian featurist if you missed a competition you can watch unfinished beef on Netflix right [Music] now that is it for the podcast today uh you can find us on YouTube you can find us on Instagram we are at commotion CBC my name is Alam Abdul Mahmud this show is called commotion we'll be back tomorrow I'll see you then