Graham Joins Stephen Sackur To Discuss Foreign And Domestic Policy Issues

[Music] Welcome to Hard talk from Lake KOMO in Northern Italy I'm Steven scker this is the venue for the ambrosetti Forum a gathering of international politicians where this year the conversation keeps returning to one simple question who will win the US presidential election in November and what will it mean for Global geop politics well my guest today has strong opinions on that matter he is Republican US senator Lindy Graham one of Donald Trump's closest allies on Capitol Hill he is Allin for team Trump but are America's voters growing weary of the former president [Music] Senator Lindsay Graham Welcome to Hard talk thank you Senator why has the replacement of Joe Biden with carela Harris on the Democratic side of this presidential race why has it knocked the Trump campaign so badly off balance I think it was uh they it's taking a while for them to get their sea legs but I think they're good to go now uh I thought he would be replaced you know we were all saying as Republicans the guy is not capable he's in Decline and all of a sudden he leaves you know it's just uh switching up candidates that late to while to absorb that but I think he'd be ready uh this coming Tuesday is the debate and I think it'll be the probably the most consequential debate maybe in a in a long time if not ever you talk about the way in which for so long the Trump campaign was built around the idea that Joe Biden was old he wasn't competent there's a big problem now for Trump isn't there he's the old guy he's 78 years old and people looking at him right now and the way he is responding to questions on the campaign Trail they are now asking questions about his cognitive abilities yeah I think you see in polling that people see he's fit for the job what he's going to have to do now in my view you we're running against someone who is just not really capable in the eyes of like 70% of the people uh right now you see you have no doubt that she's capable you know in terms of intellectual ability uh I don't think that's going to be a problem for Trump was well hang on so I mean Donald Trump repeatedly has called her dumb not an intelligent person are you saying he needs to drop that well you know I think you can't be a senator vice president attorney general if you don't have something going for you on policy I think our policies are bad so they want this insult contest you know the whole democratic convention was not about what they've done for the country but you know an attack on Trump and just fluff about policy my advice is don't take the bait start talking about what happened when you were president versus what they're doing just one more question on questions now about Trump's capabilities his capacities back in the summer you are before Biden withdrew from the race you argued that both Biden and Trump should take cognitive tests do you still believe that Donald Trump should take a cognitive test I'm fine with Donald Trump if he wants to he can I always thought Biden was um diminished I never have thought that about Trump and you see in the polling nobody believes that Trump's not capable the question is is he the right pick that's what it's going to be about and they're trying to make it about Trump and what Trump should ought to be in my view be making it about policy there's a big problem for the Republicans in that you are a party divided right now aren't you I mean there are some extraordinarily senior influential Republicans who simply will not vote for Donald Trump they think he is too dangerous to The Republic the latest of which is former Vice President Dick Cheney yeah when he says that it matters H I'm not so sure I think that's sort of built into the cake you know I Cheney yeah I like chy one one of the most stor conservatives in the United States of America who says he cannot will not vote for Trump because he is a danger I can't think of any other Republican that I know of will change their vote you got the brother of Walt saying he he's 100% against uh Tim Waltz I don't think that matters a whole lot uh Dick Cheney you got high-profile like Robert F Kennedy Jr is now supporting Trump I didn't see that coming and I'm not that may matter some so time will tell yeah I mean it it's on the Republican side it's a strange election where you have the Kennedy supporting Trump and the cheny supporting haris it's bit of a weird time at home but you are A House Divided and some of the people who know Trump Always A House Divided yeah but some of the people who know Trump best and I'm thinking now of Mike Pence again saying I cannot in good conscience endorse him Anyone who puts himself above the constitution of our country should never be president are you telling me that American voters will pay no heed to that yeah I don't think it's going to matter a whole lot uh Robert of Kennedy Jr might help with that segment of the the libertarian section of the country I don't know uh I like Mike Pence I like all these people but it didn't stop him in the primary I think I don't know who Pence is going to vote for but I can tell you this it's a tossup election I really don't know who's going to win but I wouldn't trade places with the other side yeah let's just look at the the pitch the Trump team is now making to win this election it seems you're going to double down on the idea that Camel Harris is to quote Donald Trump a communist do you think American voters are going to buy that yeah I think she's one of the most rather than say maybe communist the most liberal person to ever to seek office uh by a major party I believe that completely she's for reparations for the green New Deal would destroy the fossil fuel economy med care for all destroys Private health care for millions of Americans yeah I think she's taken the most radical positions could be taken by a member of the United States Senate and yeah I think she's definitely the most liberal person to ever to be nominated by a major party absolutely Senator I'm sure you'd agree truth telling matters when it comes to looking at your opponent's campaign right and and their offer to the American public you in the Republican Party are not telling the truth about camela Harris on a whole range of subjects like what like for example you are accusing her of wanting to ban all fracking across the United States she has made it absolutely plain that she now whatever she said five six years ago she now will not will not impose a ban on fracking so why say something change why did she change politicians change on all sorts of things why for political reasons right because it's not popular it was popular at the time she jumped on the uh Green New Deal which eliminates fossil fuels very quickly it's like a 90 trillion do change in our economy why did she get on the bill who is she trying to please why she getting off the bill because it's a dumb stupid idea no I don't believe for a minute she's changed she says my values haven't changed what are her values to declare war on fossil fuels no I don't believe her I believe she'll push a very radical environmental agenda her values haven't changed that's what she said the Democrats in power Biden and Harris they've created almost 16 million new jobs if you look over the span of the last few decades as Bill Clinton pointed out at the Democrat convention Democratic administrations have created jobs Republican administrations have not that's the truth well here's the truth 65% of Americans believe we're on going on the wrong track when Trump left if you would just address my point Senator yeah no that's not true Bill Clinton didn't that's not true we've created a lot of jobs uh with the greatest of respect the figures are quite clear they've been independent why do people believe the country is so off track why do people consistently over 60% believe the nation is going in the wrong direction in terms of the economy and security because the policies are not working with respect C it may be because people like Donald Trump and with the greatest respect yourself twist the facts do not tell the truth about what has and has not happened under the watch of Biden and house or it may be what the Democrats are saying doesn't resonate with the average person because they're not living what they're saying when Trump left office gasoline was $187 a gallon it's gone up dramatically mortgage rates below 3% we had the lowest illegal Crossings at the Border in 40 years inflation is an is eating people's paycheck alive uh we've had 10 million illegal immigrants come into the country raping and murdering people people do not believe the policies are working they're living the consequences of disastrous policy choices inflation is down as you well know you accus you accused Cara Harris of being soft on crime in California she was criticized for being too tough on crime and the fact is and again facts matter violent crime and murders across the United States have gone down during the Biden I don't I don't buy that one bit but again I it's difficult to conduct a conversation if if you won't accept facts which come from official US government agency I don't accept the fact that America along the border is chaos you're telling me that these border communities are safe go to one of them go tell the people whose families have been raped and murdered by illegal immigrants things are fine America is not buying what you're saying because it's not true I guess on the migration issue which clearly you and the Republicans are going to run hard with over the next two months there is one problem for your party and that is that it was your side of the Congress which blocked a bipartisan an effort to pass the toughest Crackdown on border security I was in the gang of eight I've been involved in three major efforts to reform immigration comprehensively the reason I voted against the bill it didn't have any changes to parole they're paroling into the country 30,000 people a month from four countries I believe illegally parole can be used for an individual situation not large groups so that's why I didn't vote for the bill let me let me quote to you the Republican senator your colleague James Lankford of Oklahoma who worked very hard to good guy good guy good guy you say he was so involved in this bipartisan effort to get tough on border security he said this is the bill that was brought up a crucial moment after three decades of inaction to decide whether we are going to do something or nothing to fix the border the truth and again it's about facts the truth is your party opted to do nothing no that's not true that's what the Democrats say and that's what you're saying I was actually there I voted on the bill the truth is I tried to put a limit on the number of people could be paroled into the country when um during Biden I'm Excuse me Obama and and Trump about 5,800 people a year were paroled in during the Biden years it's been almost a million people it's being abused that's one of the magnets that attract people illegally we could never get my Democratic colleagues to put a cap on parole therefore I voted no Senator the polls are are tight particularly in The crucial swing States but where they are not tight is it is when it comes to America's women where right now carela Harris has double digit leads do you 16% I think yeah yeah do you do you accept that the Republican party and Donald Trump have a serious women yeah there's a definitely a gender gap has been there for quite a while uh I think he's up nine with W uh men down 16 maybe it always hovers around this up to at times and why do you think that is uh bottom line I I hope we can convince American women that if you want prosperity and safety you got to change policy if you think we're on the wrong course as a nation you got to pick new people to do different and new things and remind them of uh of the Trump years where we had lower inflation and more secure the world was not on fire we didn't have any wars I think that's the way to go but at the end of the day all the states that really matter Marg Vera Georgia is coming our way I think Governor KMP is helping Trump now that will be helpful but I want to stick with the women issue what we have seen is for example JD Vance talking about what he calls childless cat ladies miserable in their own lives and they he says want to make the rest of the country miserable too we've seen Donald Trump reposting on social media disparaging comments and jokes about camela Harris and her sex ual past do you think it's time that the two of them stop disparaging women well I think uh our party I think president Trump is doing well as a candidate tied with a very um in a in a contest of a divided nation but my question was is it time for Trump to stop is is is it time for them to stop disparaging Trump in Vance and belittling uh president Trump uh is is somebody he's not it's probably time for us all to act better but this election is not going to be decided based on Words it's going to be decided based on policy and action if I may and we talk about policy perhaps the key policy when it comes to settling many women's votes is abortion you are an advocate of a nationwide ban on abortion Donald Trump says he wants to leave it where it is right now with the States it looks like the Republican party is confused okay so basically the polling is pretty clear at 15 weeks is about 65 to 70% of people would limit abortion that's my position president Trump let the states decide I support the exceptions it's not going to determine the outcome of the race in my view really yes given what we've just said about where women are today in terms of the B you're 16 points behind clearly women do not like Republican stance on abortion it's just not because because of abortion I I wouldn't I don't I haven't looked at the the cross tabs I'm here to tell you that we're not going to lose the election because we want the states to do it they would allow abortion up to demand uh at 24 weeks and Beyond that's the Chinese position that's the North Korean position that's not less than 20% of Americans want to have abortion the eth and nth month yeah let let's talk about one other uh important uh sector of the voting public that is minority in America thinking about black voters Latino voters when Biden was still in the race there was some clear evidence that Trump was making some inroads into both those votes right those inroads seems to have been lost since Kela Harris she she has Consolidated the base a bit Trump is still doing better than than most every Republican I know of with Hispanics and African-American men in particularly but she has stopped the bleeding you you talked to Trump quite quite often don't you you talk to him I think just the other day yeah yeah what did you say to him when he started to it seems question carala Harris's own racial identity when he said you know she makes a turn she wants to be known as a black person is she Indian is she black I don't know did you tell him to to back off his questioning of her own identity I said her her philosophy her ideology her governing principles I think the best way to differentiate yourself that's what I said then that's what I believe now a a contest of comparing What policies are best for lowering inflation who is best able to keep the world from being on fire uh made its energy independent is the winning Way Forward Americans are hurting financially right I get that's what I would do if so when you hear senior colleagues of yours in your party describing Kamala Harris as the quote unquote Dei candidate as though she's some sort of token that she's only there because of the color of her skin what do you say to those colleagues of I think that I I don't think that's appropriate I don't think it works but it's happening Senator yeah well you had one guy from Tennessee I can do you want me to give you every stupid thing some liberals said what you got to understand this election is shaping up to be very close slight Advantage for Trump because the conditions in America are such for change the question for Trump can he be considered an acceptable alternative to an Administration people don't like that's the challenge if he reminds people of what he did when he was president then I think he has a very good chance of winning we are speaking to each other in Europe and international Affairs matter to the American public but they certainly matter to the global public watching the US pres presidential race if you have one signature concern on the global Scene It Is is getting America to offer more support to Ukraine in their war against Vladimir Putin and Russia what do you say to European politicians who are deeply worried some of them at least that if Donald Trump wins the White House support for Ukraine from America will be cut well I don't think it'll be cut but I will say the first thing to my NATO allies you better get to 2% it's not fair you mean def defense expenditures are proportion of GDP yeah yeah he believes and so do I and Sam nun years ago wanted to put pressure on NATO Nations to be 3% your nation's at 2% we're just going to focus on that I think what he'll do with Ukraine is uh they're sitting on about six or seven trillion dollars of critical minerals some of the aid in the future will be alone but the goal is to end the war without creating Another War so I want to end the war as soon as possible I want to make sure that Putin did not win this thing that Ukraine is still standing in a sovereign country that China sees Putin as having made a mistake that comes from a negotiating table but hang on Donald Trump says that he believes he can sort this out and get a settlement within 24 hours of winning the election the only way that could happen and this is obvious the only way it could happen is by accepting that Russia continues to hold a swaye of Ukrainian territory almost 20% of Ukraine's land I think president Trump will will not end this war in a way to create another war men did not work Versailles did not work uh The Budapest memorandum did not work I have told him continuously how you end the war determines whether or not you create new Wars to the Biden Administration let the ukrainians use longrange weapons to hit legitimate military targets to get more leverage over the Russians so we can end it sooner rather than later the restrictions on weapons the delay in weapons uh using the F-16 getting tanks in has made the war go longer I really do believe that Trump will tell Putin I'm going to be Allin for Ukraine if you don't accept a reasonable deal but why do you believe that when we know that Donald Trump used his leverage with the Republicans on Capitol Hill to delay the 60 billion Aid package for Ukraine and JD Vance has said on the record quote I do not care about Ukraine yeah well he's not president and I like JD uh I care about Ukraine but let me tell you the package pass because we turned some of it into a loan we had a ly lease program with Great Britain during World War II the bottom line is America is hurting financially there's no reason not to make this alone the EU has made part of their aid package to the ukrainians alone favorable terms and that got Trump to to yes how this war ends is very important you got to create enough military pressure on Putin to get him to the table they need f-16s uh retired NATO Pilots should be in these cockpits there are a bunch of NATO Pilots retired that would fly for Ukraine to speed up using the planes we need another supplemental in Congress after the election more weapons coming we need sanctions on Banking and microchips to make it harder for Russia to stay in the fight so I am all in for helping Ukraine and the big fear I have is Iran I really do believe we're letting Iran get too powerful just a final thought on what will happen after the November election if Donald Trump loses do you think do you believe he will accept defeat you know I'll tell you what I'll do I'll listen to what the states say if I have a question I'll call up and look into it but here's the way our system works when a state certifies its results our job in Congress is to accept that certification unless there's something tremendously off base last time I voted to certify the elections I heard the concerns of the president and I thought that on balance it was U it was an election worthy of certification that's exactly what I will do uh next time here's what I do and the fact that Donald Trump continues to say that the 2020 election was stolen that he was the victim that he was the victim of a rigged election he calls those who stormed the capital on January 6 Patriots and heroes he says he will pardon them doesn't that give you PA that after this coming election if he's defeated he's not going to accept I'm focused on getting this right this time and we'll see what see how the votes shake out as to January 6 people who participated in the riots and attack cops they deserve to go to jail some people are being held without lawyers that's not right I think the American people are going to more likely than not elect Donald Trump simply because they believe his policies are superior to to Biden and Harris and while he was President the world was not on fire Russia didn't invade Ukraine we had Iran in a box all that changed due to policy choices by Biden Harris that Unleashed Iran uh after we withdrew from Afghanistan it was the worst signal you could send a final thought about Donald Trump if he loses is that the end of Donald Trump and the end of his grip on your party well uh if he loses I don't see him ever running again I think the Maga movement will still exist but we'll have to re-evaluate the party trying to take the best of trump the best of all all of the figures in the Republican party and put it back together again uh you know the labor party had that same problem the Tories now have it you know politics runs in Cycles uh if he wins um I think you're going to have a a bigger Republican party workingclass people more attracted to the Republican Party under Donald Trump they need time for we're actually growing with minorities so time will tell Lind stay tuned lindsy Graham thanks for joining me on hard tour thank you [Music] sh [Music]