good evening it doesn't really matter who wins general elections anymore they're pretty much the same I mean after all rishy sunak wanted to make sure that in 10 years time 25 year olds could buy cigarettes legally and 24 year olds couldn't that struck me as being fairly Bonkers uh now we have sakir starma uh and a leaked report said to be originated by Sue gray but no one knows the truth of that appearing in the Sun newspaper this morning suggesting there'll be an outdoor smoking band yeah that's right went be to smoke in Pub Gardens outside pubs outside sports venues now of course this all began really back in 2006 when the Blair government banned indoor smoking even in private members clubs it meant a direct 20% loss of revenue for pubs and working man's clubs and has been quite a major contributory factor to the closure of 7,000 licens premises this particular proposal would I think literally kill off the traditional Pub for good they might survive as restaurants but not as pubs but sakir seems pretty keen on all of this here he was speaking this morning outside the Elise palace in Paris NOP we haven't got it okay no problem so what he basically said was that smoking is a terrible cost of the NHS and a burden on the taxpayer I've never heard such nonsense in all my life the last time I looked tobacco revenues were four to five times the cost of treating people for tobacco related diseases on the National Health Service but that's not really the point the point actually is is this going to work are we really going to have smokefree Britain by 2030 well let me ask you are we going to have drug-free Britain oh no sorry don't mention drugs CU they're illegal and we've lost the war on illegal drugs so we'll now fight a war against legal drugs and it'll start with tobacco and it'll move on to alcohol and goodness knows what else will have smoke free Britain by 2030 give me your thoughts farage GB news.com I don't think we will for one moment and I think the danger is this that you overtax something you over regulate something that is a legal product and you drive it into the hands of criminal gangs in fact there's evidence that that's already happening with very high tobacco taxes in our country now the most anti-smoking country I've ever been to is Australia you virtually can't smoke anywhere and packet of [ __ ] is 35 quid uh this has had some pretty remarkable consequences I'm joined down the line live by Adrien Fulk Australian media commentator Adrian every time I go to Australia I'm just astonished at the cost of cigarettes and and the the level of prohibition um what's the impact been on the licensed trade in Australia sure good good evening uh n thank you so much for having me well the smoking bands kicked off here in 2016 in Sydney and obviously Then followed through around Australia different states and territories and while there was a little um you know quieter times with pubs and outdoor bistros really here in Australia it's life as we've known and it's kind of like our blockout laws that happened here in Australia in 2014 uh when they stopped uh live venues and pubs uh even allowing people to enter from 1:30 in the in the morning serving alcohol so here in Australia you know while we may be a bunch of convicts they've definitely put a leash on us quite tightly and um heing the news about uh you know these these you know proposed smoking bands um we we've been living like this for n years so most of Australians have been doing the math you know if you're 18 out now and about you know it wasn't you know since you were nine that you could you know um you know your parents could light up while enjoying a meal at a bistro so really people don't know any different anymore I do believe that yes it did have some impact um initially okay okay you know Adrien come on Australia's problem is not that it's full of former convicts Australia's problem is it's it's full of former prison officers it's always the view that I've taken whenever I've gone there but the consequences of tobacco prices have been astonishing and I've been telling the British public or tempting to tell the British public about this today you know the criminal gangs in Melbourne don't bother with cocaine there's no point there's no money in cocaine the money is in cigarettes and this incredible gang Warfare that we've seen 97 firebombings of shops and of people's houses Rel ated to the tobacco trade isn't this a classic case that you overtax something you push it beyond the reach of ordinary folk and the serious criminal gangs take over look here with you know I think the cost of living crisis in Australia has definitely taken a toll we're a year behind everything else just like when Co happened at Australia um you know our lockout laws um you know our whole country was locked down so I feel like the taxing of things and regulations of cigarettes and you're right cigarettes here I mean I had to do a Google search as a non-smoker they're very Hefty for for anyone that's smoking and um I believe that you know obviously there may be bigger issues at play there in terms of like um The Tobacco Wars that you have been seeing in headlines particularly in Melbourne um that have been happening but to to get back to the point about you know will pubs die in the UK and are people going to stop drinking no I don't believe so um you know obviously people always like going out socializing well and Adrian all I can tell you is all I can tell you is I went for crit drink in the Westminster arms before coming on this show I've been going there 30 years if I can't smoke outside I'm never going back Adrien folk thank you for joining me so George howth joins me former labor MP and Junior Minister under Tony Blair and Dame Andrew Jenkins forat Tor MP joins me as well George we were talking earlier about the fact that there is a Black Market already in cigarettes in Britain isn't there yeah and you know it is a problem and I don't deny for one minute that it won't be a problem if it's restricted even further but my own view um is that and I'm a smoker myself yeah I don't say it proudly but it's a fact that's your choice yeah but what I have noticed is that since the band came in in its original form I've cut down because there's fewer places I can actually smoke in and I'm not unhappy about that and the other point I would make and I've realized is that my smoking whether it's outside of P or somewhere else or even in the street subjects other people to the consequences of my smoking not to the same extent no it certainly has an impact if you're in a pub Garden you know nobody else has to share that smoke they don't have to but you go say say I go with my wife I smoke she doesn't must her choice she well that would always be my choice come on George but she would object to it and she's got a fair point in doing so well she married you George I mean that's her choice that's a different issue Andrea I mean you know we saw all this in r i I made the point at the start it's almost irrelevant who wins the elections the the you know we know what's good for you tendency from both parties is very strong isn't it um it is um especially with the more Centrist wing of the conservative party but to me um I mean I don't smoke I've never smoked never even tried it I think you made a valid point earlier actually Nigel why we're not tackling the major drug problem in the country we're not even discussing drugs no ex I can't believe it and also um I just feel that red starm is at it again to a set control over the nation I mean I I I believe in Freedom if people want to smoke that's up to them and I can't see any problem people smoking in a pub Garden but have on a second you were conservative Member of Parliament under a prime minister yes who wanted to make anybody under the age of 14 never ever ever legally be able to buy the product no but look I'm I'm when you're in a political party I think George is the same actually that you don't agree with every single policy I you've seen I've been quite a Critic of whoever the Prime Minister has been really and you can't agree with every policy But ultimately I'm a conservative but I don't think it's very conservative to bring those kind of policies in that's my view George most pubs have become restaurants you know all over the country they have to serve food to and that's fine but you lose something very special I've always and I'm not joking here I've always believed that every Pub's a parliament the people Gather in a pub they talk about local issues they talk about National issues they talk about international issues at many times I've had my point of view Changed by conversation but someone's put forward in a pub they're an important part of Community they're important for lonely people I just worry they're not going to survive this look I've had some like everybody else some interested and sensible conversations with people in the pub over the years frankly I've also had conversations with people who were completely Bonkers or not really in to have a debate probably the same in Parliament too definitely but what I'm saying is pubs actually matter as part of a community they're sure but you it isn't um there's a balance to be struck between the good health of the population as a whole and I'm I particularly worry about young people um do you mean vaping Freedom do you mean The Vaping phase is that craze is that what you're talking about yeah because most vaping products I think probably all of them have got nicotine in them and so nicotine is a damaging substance and the they I want to say it is it's a scientific fact and so they are getting into have it they might not ever go on to smoke but they are taking in nicotine which will in the long term cause damage I mean there are millions of people every week taking illegal drugs and I just think what starma is doing what sunac was trying to do is they're dealing with something that is legal because they've lost the war on illegal drugs for the time being that is true I think but I think the problem is if you Legalize It or at least take have a lighter touch regulation of illegal drugs more people will take it no no I agree with that I you know I worry about the amount of crime uh that is around drugs um but I do think GE that's why I wouldn't legalize cannabis because more people would take it yeah and then what are they going to progress on to yeah absolutely yeah well I don't know folks it's it's a debate that enrages me CU I hate big government I can't stand them telling us what to do they all go to hell as far as I'm concerned that's how I've always felt about government I've always had those libertarian instincts but I think with il legal drugs with the Obesity crisis uh there are many many alcoholism there are many many problems in this country it just seems that smoking is somehow the easy Target and my view uh is that actually what we've done with pubs and clubs is we've struck a compromise and one that works and a lot of these establishments have spent a lot of money putting smoking shelters up conforming with local councils and I think this will do an enormous amount of harm to the traditional Great British pub one of the things by the way that is rather envied around the rest of the world