Former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales

well we have Mr attorney general Alberto Gonzalez on today he's I don't know which title to call him former Attorney General judge Dean Professor amazing all the different things you've done welcome to the show I'm delighted to be here I think this is a very important topic and happy to talk about it well well tell us before we get into into the topic of prosecutorial Independence um you know a little about your background and and where you grew up because I think it's important for folks to hear all that sure I'm a Texan uh but I I reside currently in Tennessee um been here for about 11 12 years uh I've been the dean at Belmont law school in Nashville uh for about uh like nine or 10 years and um um you know I was the the second Dean uh and it's been a great experience we've done pretty well as a as a law school here and um it's uh I've been able to take advantage of all the experiences I've had as a lawyer either in private practice on the bench uh running a state agency running a federal agency advising a governor advising a president and I think all that's been helpful in terms of um talking to our students about you know the the great things about uh being a lawyer um when people get in trouble today they call a lawyer and part of our job is to is to serve uh and we are champions for people in need and and uh in this role I get to I get to promote that that so it's been a good experience um and very much enjoyed being here at Belmont and uh in Nashville you know it's so so great that you say how how we're Champions I always talk about how much I love being a lawyer because we get to fight for different clients different different ideas different causes and and uh I always am troubled by folks who say they don't like their job as a lawyer like to me this is the greatest job you could have well I I can see the frustration I and uh sometimes uh and it can be trying uh and I have met um many unhappy lawyers uh the job can be very very stressful and what I try to tell our our uh students is um you know there are many opportunities very in various ways you can serve uh your community and and uh people uh around the country and that and the thing is to find what's what's right for you right I tell them when you graduate you know just get a job any kind of legal job that's the most important thing and then after a few years you after you've learned how a little bit about how what it's like to be a lawyer uh look around and see what is it that really makes you happy and that you're good at uh because before you know it um life is so short you get as old as I am and you look back at your life and you think what was it all for so it is important to try to find something that makes you happy uh uh and you have many opportunities to do that as a lawyer well Dean you say you're getting old you look great man I don't know what your secret is you're going to have to to share with me because look I I got old I don't know what happened well I I would say we both look very youthful we're we're we aging well how about that for both of us let me ask you this before we get into the prosecutorial independent stuff as as Dean and and as someone who who worked their way up in Texas how important is diversity in the law and in our institutions it's you know Dei has been under such criticism recently and I was wondering your take as Dean important it is or or not important you know I I think it's important to the extent that uh our uh population the people that we serve are diverse and um uh I I think it it provides some level of confidence um less suspicion in the profession by people of different races and colors um but at the end of the day it really is about competence uh you have a job to do as a lawyer to represent your client and you know I'd like to think that as a Hispanic I don't care if my lawyer is white what I care about is whether or not they're a great lawyer can they serve the needs and so while I recognize some value um I I worry sometimes that um that we we we pay too much attention to it and maybe that that could that is probably heay I mean heresy uh among certain communities but you know for most minorities our common prayer is just give us a chance to prove oursel that's all we want just give us a chance and if we can't do it we can't do it but if we can do it that's what we want is that opportunity to be successful and and I mean you got so you know those opportunities and you were you know people looked up to you in the Hispanic community and that was an important thing they they saw that somebody could rise to be the Attorney General of the United States well and you know and I've was often asked what does it feel were you proud to be the first Hispanic attorney general and I would say you know there is no Brown Justice or black Justice or white Justice there is just Justice and I tried to do my job with that in mind however I I I I think I I can safely say that as I travel the country people Hispanics would come up to me and say you know my grandfather or my grandmother cried when George Bush announced he was going to put you as the Attorney General of the United States and so in various households in America that that was a big deal because you're right it um role models are very very important uh for children look look to see that they're Role Models people that look like them people with the same kind of background and can achieve great things and you know we're hearing some of that today with respect to the rise uh to the campaign of of KLA Harris uh whatever you may think about her politics and her policies there are a lot of kids out there that are looking at her and saying and and women and young girls and and saying you know what look what's possible maybe I could do that one day listen I have three daughters and and you know so it's important for them to see it and and I think it's a great thing let's let's turn to um prosecutorial Independence because the ABA just started this task force on prosecutorial Independence that you're uh helping to spearhead I'm not well let me let me correct you I'm not spearheading it there is a I think as a 24 member task force I'm on the advisory uh I'm in an advisory role I think with the attorney general Loretta Lynch Deputy attorney former deputy attorney general um Larry Thompson so we've got a advisory my my role is purely advisory but it is a good group on the task force and I think they're doing very important work amazing group and and so what is what is the idea what what is prosecutorial independence why do we need it and why is it so important well it's the notion that you know uh prosecutors uh I I view them as sort of Administrators of the justice system and uh we need people that are in dependent uh and fair-minded and qualified to make decision as to whether or not the liberty of an individual should be taken away because they've committed a crime and and that discretion the decision as to whether the charge that there's probable cause that a crime has been committed that that decision should be made based upon professional uh professional uh you know training and experience uh without any kind of political bias and I think it's very very important for our justice system uh to have prosecutors that are independent you know we have prosecutors at various levels obviously at the federal level we we have it at the state level we have it at at the local level as well we are one of the few countries maybe the only country in the world where the chief prosecutor at the local level generally I think in 47 out of 50 States they're elected now why do we do that well I think we do that because we believe that prosecutors at that level are more respons onve to the needs and wants of the community and by and large you know the system has worked has worked well because I I think it is important for people at that level to be in contact with the community to know the community wants and interests because that is part of how one of the factors that I think prosecutors use and should use in making decisions about whether or not to prosecute a case because not every crime is prosecuted and that's part of the debate and discussion I think we're going to have today is the fact that there is discretion uh in our prosecutor as to whether or not to um to uh prosecute a a crime and the debate is whether or not that that discretion should be cabined in some way should prosecutors be punished in some way when they exercise their discretion and someone in the state in the community doesn't like it right and and that's exactly the topic I'd like to discuss you you you mentioned that prosecutors by and large around the country State Court prosecutors are elected um of course Federal prosecutors are appointed is it better to have elections for State prosecutors should we have elections for federal prosecutors too or what's a better system to have set up I I don't know that we we want to have Federal elections I guess we'd have 53 elections for the US attorneys uh around the country I I I don't I think the current system works well quite frankly uh and I I I do support um more accountability at the local level at the level where where uh crime occurs in the community you've got the local prosecutor who is well known in the community and is accountable to the community as I said earlier knows that the the needs the interest uh of that community and is able better able to take that into account as one important factor in deciding whether or not to charge a you know someone for for committing a crime I like the current system at the federal level of course um uh but it you know it does it's interesting with respect to trying to determine well what are the priorities because a president and we're seeing it now during this campaign campaigns and tells the American people these are my law enforcement priorities and therefore the Attorney General uh is responsible to make making sure those Federal priorities are carried out well the Attorney General himself or herself has his or her own set of priorities law enforcement priorities and so that gets communicated down to the US attorneys then you get to the US attorney level within their jurisdiction they have their own because they they have TI to the community they see what the needs are within the community so they have their own priorities as well so there there there are levels of priorities that that exist in our country sometimes it it gets a little bit confusing I I have to admit to that but I think C the current system to answer your question I think I think works well by the way um one of the great elected State Attorneys was Janet Reno down here in Miami who of course became attorney general was a predecessor of yours I don't know if you ever got to meet her but she was uh she was a force of nature down here in Miami oh I did I did get to meet her one once uh I went to to uh her office uh and I can't remember why but to have a meeting with her to ask something from the Department of Justice but yes um I agree with you that that that kind of experience at the local level is extremely important I think made her a stronger attorney general and so I I salute and applaud her service to this country you know um we have this issue here in Florida with with the independence of prosecutors because the governor here has of course um it's well known in public fired two um elected uh State Attorneys and you know it's it's interesting should Governors have that power to fire State Attorneys and when should it be used I mean that c certainly impacts the independence of State Attorneys well within every state U there are different means of addressing uh the Der elction of Duty by a prosecutor and sometimes it does occur or or maybe perhaps the the prosecutor no longer has a mental capacity for example to do their job and so there has to be a way to replace uh that prosecutor in in that situation and it differs from state to state I am less offended about removing an elected prosecutor through an election or recall election because that it's the people that put them in office it's the people that taken them out of office but in some states you have a different system where you may have the the chief appointing officer like the governor M making a decision to remove someone now if that removal was based upon political reasons then I have a problem with it quite frankly if they're not doing their job they not enforcing the law Prosecuting cases as they should that's that's a different story but if they remove for political reason reasons I think it's problematic in some states I think it was like Georgia they created a commission to evaluate whether or not a prosecutor should be removed and so there are various ways that that could happen and um you know the factors that are used or considered in removing a prosecute I think are vitally important can cannot should not be used U if they're simply um done for political reasons if the prosecutor is not doing his or her job that obviously I think there needs to be a change the people need to have a very active very focused prosecutor uh within their Community you know it's interesting because there's this tension of course right like on the one hand there's criminal laws on the books people want them enforced they're passed criminal laws on the other hand if an elected state attorney says I'm going to enforce it this way the people have elected that person uh obenson their views about what they would and wouldn't enforce it's a really tough line to figure out whether they've crossed and and in Florida at least in the two cases Monique warell and Andrew Warren there's there's litigation on both about what happened and you know on in the Warren case in the 11th circuit the 11th circuit has said listen he was just exercising his first amendment rights and you can't fire someone based on that and they've sent the case back for exploration about whether he should have been fired um on the warl case the FL Supreme Court said no she you know uh the governor was within his rights to fire her and that was a state case because she wasn't enforcing the Min minimum mandatory sentences so it's really interesting the because it's a tough line to draw about whether they're just talking and exercising their first amendment or whether they're not enforcing the laws as they're supposed to yeah whether or not even if the governor was within his rights the question is should he exercise that right that power uh and and and maybe you know the answer is well you know we'll let the voters decide at the next election for that Governor quite frankly they may decide you know what we think it was wrong that you you fired this this um this prosecutor so you you know I think you have different scenarios all across the country because every state uh you know chooses how it's going to deal with with the decisions made by by prosecutors what what about Dean the situation in which a state attorney runs on the premise I'm just not going to prosecute this kind of case or I'm going to run on the premise where I will not seek the death penalty for folks even though there is a death penalty provision on the books and that person gets elected um is that something that that a governor should just say well that that person got elected so you know that's on them or should they take action well I'm glad you're asking me very easy questions yeah no because the truth the tough ones the truth of the matter is I I have a problem with a blanket announcement that I'm not going to Pro that as a prosecutor I'm not going to prosecute certain kinds of crimes I believe that creates a separation of powers issues when you have the legislature said you know this is a this this kind of conduct results in a crime and you as the the prose Chief prosecutor in the state or the county or city say I'm just not going to prosecute these kinds of crimes I I I don't think it's appropriate for a prosecutor to make that kind of kind of blanket announcement now because of limitation of resources within that within an office because of the needs and wants and interests of a local community because of the what's in the best interest of Justice sometimes a prosecutor is going to is going to decide we're we're not going to prosecute certain kinds of cases I I I get that but I think you communicate that quietly within the office and say you know what we have certain priorities these are the crimes that I think should be prioritized and if we have resources to do to prosecute other kinds of crimes we're going to do that so that that's the way that I would handle it I I I think I I I'm uncomfortable with this notion I'm just you know I'm going to get elected uh based on this platform of not Prosecuting certain kinds of crimes um and you're right it makes it more difficult if you're successful if if that's the case and have the people maybe we should have an election where the people decide all right we want to change the law you know with something there's a tension there there's no question about it but right I think I've explained to you where I think many prosecutors uh how they would deal with this notion of announcing a blanket amnesty or because if you say to to the city in the city of New York we're not going to prosecute shoplifting anymore well what's going to happen everyone's going to shoplift right it's G to increase you don't do that we all understand that the prosecutors in New York have limited resources a lot of violent crime there you focus on that if they have resources and time then you go after the shoplifters it is interesting right because prosecutors used to run on things like I'm going to focus my resources on X that's how it used to be now prosecutors are running on you know I'm not going to use resources for this other thing over here and it it is it is an interesting way to run yeah I think I think it's better and and probably safer to talk about what I'm going to prioritize you know and if the American if the the public you're the the voters support that you get elected that that makes it easy and and if you have money left over you have the time left over then you go after other crimes as well now Dean you know it's interesting also to look at sort of the mirror image which is the federal prosecutors because every time there's a new election right we get a whole new slate of us attorneys so there is some politicization of of the federal prosecutors you know on the election cycle should should attorney Attorneys General have the the Attorney General have the ability to fire uh prosecutors who don't want to stick around oh who do want to stick around I'm sorry who who want to stick around after the election okay you're talking about the US attorneys who are appointed correct generally us attorneys serve at the pledge of the president they're appointed by the president by Statute they do have four-year terms and once the four-year term expires uh then there really is no argument for the US attorney to believe that that he or she should should remain in office I I wouldn't view it as as politicized uh when changes occur uh with the new Administration the expectation is the president United States should have his own people in place at the Department of Justice to ensure the safety of the American people that's always been the case I suspect it will always be the case so I don't view that as political quite frankly um it's just simply the situation where uh it's like that the the U the president has an entire new cabinet okay even though there may have been some great people serving in the previous cabinet nonetheless a president is entitled to his team everyone understands that and there's never that's never been an issue I remember when my friend Alex aosta was appointed as us attorney down here now Alex I didn't know him at the time and he wasn't an experienced prosecutor and he was under a lot of heat when he got appointed and and he announced his priorities as as us attorney and and got a lot of heat for that but then became one of the best us attorneys in my opinion that we've had down here um so so it's interesting to see that you know you don't need to have a ton of experience as a line prosecutor for instance to be running one of these offices well you need to have good judgment you have to remember that you have experienced prosecutors um career prosecutors in these offices they know how to do it they know how to be successful in Prosecuting cases uh and so they are there to assist the politically appointed us attorney and so it it is absolutely true you don't have to have experience uh as a as a criminal prosecutor or as a criminal defense lawyer uh you just have to have good judgment surround yourself make sure you're I always say if you're the smartest person in the room you're in the wrong room make sure make sure that you're surrounded by people that are really smart very experienced and have good judgment and you know so yeah and I'm not surprised you know that's that's why Alex aosta was was was nominated and confirm is because of the belief that even though he may have lacked the experience of someone else uh more experience that nonetheless he uh he would be successful now now we do all all of us believe in prosecutorial Independence and discretion but but there is a problem with with prosecutors when they do become political I mean there were ridiculous charges brought against you by some political prosecutor back in 2008 that were obviously dismissed and and absurd but what should we do with prosecutors when they do cross the line to to you know being political well they should be held accountable but that's got to be through uh due process that they they must know the reasons for the uh as to why they're being investigated or looked at be given notice provided a hearing before a neutral decision maker uh I think that that is important you're right if the office as a prosecutor cannot be used for political purposes saying I'm gonna I'm going to prosecute my enemy here because they're my enemy or the the the enemy of my my best friend that can never be the case and so there should be an opportunity to remove prosecutors who make charging decisions not b not is not based on what is in the best interest of justice but based on political or personal reasons reasons that are totally inappropriate that we would all agree are inappropriate listen I don't I'm sure my listeners are going to have a views on whether you know the the cases against Donald Trump should be Brad or not my my issue and I'm not going to you know say one way or the other but I do think it's weird for a prosecutor to run on the premise of I'm going to prosecute this person I think that's a weird platform to run on and I can understand the criticism of of running on a platform like that because it does create a political problem for the prosecution I agree with you I think that's a mistake I think you you know I'm I might go so far as to say I'm going to really focus on these kinds of crimes right but to identify people individually I I think is a mistake because it does look like like a vendetta and uh I I think that that's harmful uh to the to the lawyers in that office quite frankly in the work that they're doing and it just it sets a bad example now now Dean when you were councel to the president there was of course a lot of discussion about independence with with Ashcraft and The Showdown with Comey I don't know if there's any story you can tell about about that about the independence and and whether you're willing to share anything about that old story well uh I'm not sure uh particularly what you're referring to uh there was a dis there was a disag agreement that occurred between the White House and the Department of Justice relating to U A a surveillance program and as to whether or not the president had authority to do this um General Ashcraft had approved it for multiple times he gets sick and goes into the hospital and uh Jim Comey uh becomes the acting attorney general and uh they go back and take a look at the the the activity and and inform us right when General ashof is in the hospital that there's no legal authority to do continue to do this and we we spoke with Jim Comey um and asked well could we defer this because what they wanted us to do was discontinue the activity and we asked could you could we defer this until General Ashcraft comes out of the hospital because he's approved it multiple times he has said this is lawful uh they refused to do so and then of course um the next morning the Madrid train bombing happens and you know many many Spaniards are killed uh by this terrorist attack and at that point President Bush felt he had no choice that he had to authorize his surveillance and um uh and that we would we would try to come to some kind of resolution as soon as general ashof got out of the hospital so there was that disagreement but and it was obviously a very serious disagreement but as White House Council I I realize and I still do today and I I talk about this quite a bit with audiences you know the White House Council has no business uh being involved in making decisions about you know what is really what is lawful and what is a crime that's the job of the Attorney General in the Department of Justice right and so my job would simply be to um have an understanding of what the department is doing but not to interfere in any way with a a a charging decision or decision as to whether or not an activity is lawful or not that was a very unique situation and uh I regret that it happened in fact the first time I saw General Ashcroft after that incident when he was out of the hospital I told him I was sorry about what had happened because it was it was very uncomfortable and I think it was uncomfortable for him uh because he had approved it 20-some times and now his team was telling was saying well it's not can't you can't do that and I think he probably was a little bit embarrassed I was embarrassed but um I think it's an example of you know the lawyers simply doing their best to try to find what is the right thing to do here to protect America in a way that's that that's consistent with the Constitution and the laws passed by Congress what what a what a time to look back on and reflect are you still close with um former President Bush and his family I'd like to think I'd like to think I am although I haven't spoken to him in um in over a year and I I really respect the fact that you know he's he stayed out has stayed out of the Fret he he knows that he's done it you know he had his chance he's done his duty uh history will judge him and he's not he's not about to I'd be shocked if he comes out publicly one way or the other with this in connection with this presidential campaign because this I just that's just not the way that's just not who he is I I do love seeing the camaraderie he has with the clintons and Obamas when they're all together it is a time that you know I feel like we we miss well it was a different time I really do think um it was a different time uh and it it what it was a different time with Reagan and tipon I just so much has changed today and I think not for the good I I worry I have concerns about our country I worry about some of the rhetoric in this campaign um I give credit uh to the vice president for uh embarking on a a message of of optimism uh what a great country we are because we are a great country uh and I think honestly it's going to resonate with more people uh as opposed to going dark and talking about what's wrong with this country we have some serious issues and there are many Americans that are hurting no question about it but go to other countries uh I have had the opportunity as AG to visit a lot of other countries and if you do that you'll realize how lucky we are to be in America right amen ABS absolutely are you making an endorsement today are you endorsing no no I'm not I I haven't decided yet what I'm doing I'm just telling you what resonates with me and what I think is going to resonate with um most Americans let me ask you Dean since since you are now at at Belmont law school tell me about being the dean in teaching and and are you enjoying that and is it is it a great part of your career am I enjoying it well depends on the you know uh when you ask me you know the administrative stuff gets a little tedious and and faculty bless her heart um they get excited over the littlest things and I try to tell them you know it's it's okay it'll be okay we'll find we'll find an answer to this but the best part is just being in front of students understanding that they represent the future of our country and our community and if I can have just a little influence on their thinking uh their commitment to uh this country country to me that makes it all worthwhile so I I really very much enjoy uh speaking with young people and um and just encouraging them to think seriously about spending part of their professional life giving back to this community and this country absolutely let let me ask you one of the themes of this podcast is about trials and I try to inspire young lawyers to go to trial because that's what our system is based on one of the issues we have is this huge trial penalty now that that you know criminal defendants if they go to trial and lose they get these monster sentences um any thoughts on on the trial penalty and how we can get more trials back into our system uh I you know I I don't know that I have any good ideas about this I will say we have an a professor here who's one of his main projects is looking at the issue of ple bargaining in that so many people who are innocent plead guilty why because many of them are poor they can't afford good lawyers they can't afford to miss a lot of time at work and so rather than going through a lyy trial they just plead they plead guilty they want to avoid a very long sentence the possibility of a long sentence and so um that is something that I think um that all of us in the legal profession should be looking at and be concerned about the fact that we you that we have innocent people who think it's better to safer to plead guilty than to U go through the experience of a trial and risk possibly losing Dean one of the last things I'd like to talk to about and I always ask folks this because I I think people are interested you know you were the Attorney General probably working 20 hours or more a day um how are you able to to stay healthy sleep what did you eat how did you did you exercise at all um how did you do it when you were attorney general well you know there over ,000 people that work at the Department of Justice so you're pretty well supported uh and you're driven around in F in two black Suburbans with FBI and carrying machine guns yeah so they take pretty good care of you quite frankly and I remember um a couple times a week days a week I would uh get on a bike uh with my detail behind me would run along the pomac river and that was always a lot of fun so finding ways to relieve stress is is very very important and that continues today quite frankly well what what do you do what do you have to to get rid of the stress well I I I try to do a lot of uh e exercise quite frankly uh I'm a racketball player although my body is wearing down playing racketball and so I'm people are trying to convince me to take up pickle ball I don't know about that maybe you're a pickle ball uh fan I'll tell you I grew up playing racketball with my dad um who was also a lawyer and I love rocketball to me is the best workout you can get I haven't played in a long time but it is to me the most fun and best workout you can get well but it's brutal on the body on the joints the knees the shoulders and it's I can feel the wear and tear so I I'm I'm looking for something a little bit different a little easier better for my body so one last area that I'll I'll ask you about um the chief judge of our 11th circuit down here William prior wanted me to send his regards and ask you who was the best appellant judge uh ever appointed during the Bush Administration does he even have to ask come on that's an easy one judge prior and as we were talking earlier he just received a just a great tribute from uh justice Thomas and uh you know uh very very proud and I'm sure President Bush is proud of the appointment of will prior he's done a fabulous job on the circuit court and just a great Ambassador quite frankly for the for the Judiciary so we're very very proud of will PRI well Dean I just want to thank you for doing the time I know it's the beginning of school right now you got students coming in and uh I hope you teach them all the great things about being a lawyer about prosecutorial Independence all this great stuff and I just want to thank you for taking the time this morning to speak to us thanks for having me