hey pull up a chair it's hack on tap with David Axel root and Mike [Music] Murphy before I was elected as vice president before I was elected as United States Senator I was the elected attorney general as I've mentioned of California before I was a courtroom prosecutor in those roles I took on perpetrators of all kinds frauders who ripped off consumers cheaters who broke the rules for their own gain so hear me when I say I know Donald Trump's type welcome kamla Harris to the presidential race uh Mike Murphy like I'm ah head of spinning man it's been some 10 days here huh yeah you know who would have thought it I mean I remember a couple weeks before the debate we had some blow hard on the show was predicting a really bad debate and there'd be a big onslaught of criticism and Biden might have been forced to drop out and you know we scoffed well never had that [ __ ] again yeah no no wait that was you I think it was you I don't know how it happened so I've Avenged my Nikki haly prediction by calling this thing like keskin despite the scoffs of disbelief from many other experts but anyway here we are the campaign has done a neck snapping 180 at least in terms of enthusiasm on the other hand this is uh this is going to be a high velocity rocket and we needed a high velocity pundit to help us figure this out a reporter a bond bant writes for a great new uh online site named after Don Rickles I mean who could and since we couldn't find anybody like that we just had a settle for John Hilman yeah well we have his number hey John hey you guys I heard uh I heard uh combo Harris talking about perpetrators of all kinds and now here I am surrounded by perpetrators of all kinds since we have a a trio of perpetrators of allpurpose perpetrators here it's fantastic we're actually doing this as we're doing this as our community service actually now that you mention it yeah later we got to paint some parking meters and then we're done for the week I keep thinking I'm just I keep thinking we're just a bluely bunch of coconuts I'm I'm trying to get familiar with all these new memes I think also we're we're all brat now is that what we are brat yes yeah yeah what's the name of that performer who Endor I can't even you're you're you are are link to the cultural World here hman what's the name of that woman that the the performer who endorsed her and called her brat it's got a bunch of uh Roman numerals in it I don't know but I just think of this should be uh it's Charlie XCX I believe is her name and she's uh we we are like the Bratz on tap Bratz on tap here that's what this is exactly should rename the show Bratz on tap that'd be like brats on tap I've just been in Milwaukee so I feel like I'm very connected to BR culture right now um you this is this is actually when you when you assess this the change in the race uh the fact that she has these links to contemporary culture is like not a small thing you know the Tik Tock world and people I said something in my column on Sunday I said that she had Youth and vigor and I got trashed on the right they're like she's 60 years old I'm like hey guys number one 58 and I'm loving this whole ComEd young thing I love it she's 59 we call you kid over here and secondly compared to [ __ ] Donald Trump she's like a she's like a teenager she's a teenager that's all that matters there's been a big Boomerang snap here because the Democrats went from my God we got the mummy and we're doomed and nobody seems to care about Trump's age and then Joe Biden and by the way salute to Joe Biden he did something we have not seen in American politics for many years he put the country and the party above his own career and his own needs and that that is a r yes yeah exactly real president move there so salute to him but now the whole the big rubber band has snap the other way now Trump is the old guy 23 SC yes and she plays younger than she even is so the age monster that was eating Trump is now going to Pivot around and we're going to see what it does to hopeless throwback the Queens in 1961 Donald Trump on on their argument every issue too and I know we're going to get into all this but that power is tremendous and you can tell it's it's shaking Donald Trump you know we've talked a lot about how the Trump campaign has been well managed by Susie ws and uh uh Chris levita but now for the first time they're going to have bucking bronco ready to go out and do dumb things Trump really out of control so that that's one of the many things to watch here because the energy has done a massive massive 180 there's danger in it too but it's uh it's a whole new campaign now yeah I'm in $100 million in the first day uh she raised 60,000 volunteers and there is a palpable uh a palpable sense of excitement uh among Democrats who were moraband uh before uh you know the day before that uh the question is uh how long does that last how far does it go is it a sugar high or is it a sustainable thing I I keep thinking a couple things one you know people have gotten in the habit of trashing big donors of late because they you know in the period when when a many number of people were saying that that for a variety of reasons and none of them ever having to do with any distaste or disrespect for for for Joe Biden but just were like looking at the situation and saying guys like this is this is not a tenable situation here and and and look is she is is the vice president risky yeah and and is sticking with Joe Biden riskier yes when people were saying that you got into this kind of because the because Joe Biden for a little while was trashing Elites um you know people started trashing big donors who were trying to force them off the ticket hey look the donor class was right about this and and I'll note David in addition to all this great Grassroots money that they've raised I saw a thing yesterday $150 million pledged to the $150 million pledged to the main uh Biden the super pack also in that same period so you're talking about a quarter of a billion dollars that has been either raised or committed in the span of less than of less than 48 hours that alone I mean it's not nothing I mean these are not this not a measure of all the energy that was dissipating is now focused in fact we've started our low high and low right we've started citizens against stupid haters make your check payable to cash and just send it to us at XS on tap because we're we're doing the fight too but this is this kind of energy is a real deal it counts and I would just say that that that you know the we are in this I guess the analog has been drawn by some people we're in this kind of British snap election mode here or european snap election you know a lot of countries are used to this and we've never seen anything like it so to your guys Point Sugar High hey you know sugar highs can last for a little while and they don't need the sugar high this doesn't have to yes it's going to be we're going to get it is a Sprint we're going to get it's going to be October had a Snickers right before this podcast so we're going to test that proposition we're waiting for it to kick in about halfway through but you know I think there's some I I honestly really do think there's some advant in some ways there are people who' have said and I think look there are a lot of Democrats who would say and I think everyone on this show right now would have rather not gone through the agony of those three weeks of Joe Biden resisting and digging in his heels and everyone I thought on some level you would have thought well this platonic ideal he wakes up you know 72 hours after the debate and says you know what I watch the debate people are right I'm going to make make a graceful exit but yeah well that's the Swedish Joe Biden we have the Irish one so that wasn't going to happen and he told George he didn't watch the debate so maybe they should have made him but the waiting for these three weeks actually shortening foreshortening the the time that the Sprint gets shorter in some ways him delaying could be an advantage for her yeah although you know that I think that also well it certainly was an advantage for her because the shorter the timetable the more obvious a choice she was and the the the less feasible kind of open convention scenario that some had talked about would be this played out to her advantage and they were ready I mean they it was it was it was shock and awe to see those endorsements Rolling In by the minute after and she was making pushing the right trick you know I one phone call done you know one phone call done now now all this said there's a lot of I mean we Kudos did them for RO but this is a stampede it's not was not a thoughtful like who's the strongest candidate in the party and how do we win this was an emotional stamped of we got to solve this in two days and it's got to be her going going gone but Mike here let me see I saw Mike I I saw you you were tweeting about this and I totally I I I had great sympathy for your point of view about this which was you know are you guys going too fast are you stampeding shouldn't you thinking sit and think about it for a little bit and I I have great sympathy for that point of view because obviously she has certain which I'm sure we're going to talk about certain distinct political liabilities but honestly if you're the Democratic party collectively if you're the hive mind of the democratic party and you've just undertaken this incredibly risky Venture which is to take down a sitting president out of his as position as the top of the ticket land it zip it up be done yes and and just and look at she is and she is a known quantity I mean after all that risk you want to try to drisk right and and and and she has liabilities she has assets but they're all pretty much we understand she's got a she got low ceiling also has a high floor I mean you look at her and go at least we know we're getting here there's going to be no Jack in the Box surprises popping out of the closet on actually we we we don't you know um we among the among the assets that we uh that I think are undervalued here having done a bunch of these is like she has is it swam in the deep end of the pool and no one else has I mean mean no nobody nobody understands just how hard these presidential races are and any other office you've run for is double A maybe triaa but it's completely different when you get to the major leagues and you're playing in the World Series and in a short runup I mean if you had a primary campaign people could hone their skills and get used to the deep end of the pool there is no time for that and she does know you know she almost drowned in the deep end of the pool she ran a terrible campaign in 2019 she wasn't ready for that race did drown and then the first half she got to a dog paddle we have not the yesterday might have been the first real swim we' seen you know what I think Mike I think yes yesterday she gave the best speech you know it was it was her reintroduction to the nation and she wo her biography together into a really devastating comparative with Trump and then she uh pushed the thing into a question of past and future uh in a way I thought was very very effective I think she's been doing a lot better for some time it's just people haven't been uh paying attention but which is great because if she's actually better than the perception uh than the expectations thing and and if she can have a good 10day run here um because she's got to be defined for all I I agree with you she's been in the Wind Tunnel uh kind of the the triaa baseball Wind Tunnel of VP but now now if she performed arms it it it's going to compound upon compound upon itself and and do really well the thing that the thing that plagued her in the last campaign was she didn't see she didn't feel comfortable uh she wasn't comfortable when she spoke she didn't seem authentic and uh and uh this this time when you know what we saw yesterday was a candidate who seemed absolutely uh comfortable and relaxed and you know knew what she wanted to say and uh was comfortable with what she was she she was the words seemed more organic to who she is and that's what you need to compete here but look let's can I can I just get let me get one quick thing in just quick just to play just to use the sports and out the basball analogy a little bit more right there's no question that that she was not a good presidential candidate I have seen her I me I've known her since about 1998 so I've seen her I've seen her play in the California in the in the bush leagues and in as a San Francisco prosecutor I've seen her play as an attorney general as a senator as a bad presidential candidate except for a couple of moments but what's really I think is missed is that she as vice president which is not the world series of Yankee Stadium but it's major league pitching right after dos she became she's better I mean I traveled with her on a post dobs event for the circus and I was struck by now is that that's not again it's not the World Series it's not what she's going to go through right now but but it's not you know uh the the the Grand Rapids rotary club either it's not you know not to dis gret Whitmer but it's not it's not what Josh Shapiro does or gret Whitmer does or or or Basher or any of these other people she's been playing at you know post dobs as the the tip of the spear for the administration on that she has done a lot of travel she's been in a lot of places she's the first you know president or vice president to ever go to an abortion clinic that mean that's that's she's got National coverage in this ramp up the last year and she has get it been getting progressively better is she going to be Flawless she's not going to be Flawless but she's better than people she has gotten better and a little bit under the radar but above the Raider at the same time over this last year she's yeah you know if she's undervalued we're we're now going to she's going to go in the scale in the X-ray and we're going to find out what worries me to be you know we've we've done the upside and she had a great day yesterday and they frame that speech well by the way I don't love the the prosecutor thing is I think more of an inside message of the party I'm G to win I'm ready to fight this guy I like the second half of her speech better what worries me about the prosecutor thing she was the moderate San Francisco prosecutor and then she pivoted more to the center's attorney general now being the moderate San Francisco means you're you're only a communist five days out of seven they're going to find some Willie Horton let a killer out of jail stuff with her they believe me that the Republicans know that Playbook the Communist by the way the commun the Communist seem pretty Draconian in their with yes I used to walk around Moscow in the old days waving $100 bills uh no crime at all uh except thought crime which they love to prosecute uh so my point is I wouldn't bet the ranch on that because she's going to get a second look into all that stuff now I would I like the other stuff she did Future Past that that's where it all fits together beautifully and I'm on your side he's on his side which Biden had started to prosecute so and dobs man she can bang that gong every day of the week he's going to take it back to 1955 where men make all the decisions for women you know it there is a golden campaign there and we saw the hint of it in the second half go ahead then I yeah but um on the prosecutorial thing listen I always thought in 2020 that that that she should have leaned into her record not away from it and she did she ran away from her prosecutorial record because it was a left primary and she was worried about it interest inly the Trump people have signaled that they're going to attack her from the left at least in their Communications to young black voters who they're trying to appeal too clever by half yeah well but but in any case her work there but particularly as attorney general when she went off after these big interests you know on on on housing and health care and other issues those set her up uh very very well the thing that worries me uh is a couple one is is uh she is not she's not a clean Turn the Page candidate and let's listen to let's listen to a little the Trump this is this was the Trump media uh that was uh aired hours after it became clear that she was going to be uh the candidate comma was in on it she covered up Joe's obvious mental decline our president is in good shape in good health tireless vibrant and I have no doubt about the strength of the work that we have done but KLA knew Joe couldn't do the job so she did it look what she got done a border Invasion runaway inflation the American dream dead they created this mess they know comma owns this failed record make America great again Inc is responsible for the content of this advertising that's kind of a green room ad to me you know it feed the Washington Echo chamber about the cover up and all that the go ahead but it's I I can tell you I can tell you that um I think from folks out there that I've talked to who have act who who are already testing these ads this has been an argument that actually resonates more than I thought it would the whole idea that they knew all along that you know it was a Weekend at Bernie's thing and she was in on it but the bigger thing is them tying her to these issues and you know there's a there was another video another video that uh I I thought I had sent uh in which they really went after her on the immigration thing in a very very brutal way so you know she can't this is she is not a Turn the Page candidate in the way that would be cleaner and she's going to have to figure out how to navigate that and fire back and in some places may maybe she charts her own course here moving forward uh uh well that's just quickly and then John of course weigh in that's the biggest thing for all the talk about and it's it's legitimate that oh she's played at the big league she's semi vetted a governor would turn the page this is the the the junior partner of the Biden Harris Administration which means the inflation and the Border she's going to it's going to be there and it's a legit attack the question is can she get the new fresh dos and her stuff to Eclipse that because if we're still doing the economy referendum on Biden that's quicksand for her too and that was the biggest downside that in performance skills are a question mark uh in picking her I think I like I like like always wanted there be a situation where a vice president could uh who was in the situation like you know an Al Gore or whoever could come forward and basically be sort of like you know for the last four years there have been stories written about how uh all these snapy stories written about how there's tension between me and the president and we've always denied them and said you we're really close and I have my weekly lunch and everything okay guys time to come clean I barely know the president president [ __ ] hates me I barely know him I've been pissed at him the whole time I've been trying to poison his food for the last I'm finally ready to come clean all the [ __ ] he did wrong I don't own that stuff at all I had nothing to do with it if it up to me we would have done a whole different thing the Border seems like the biggest problem I think there's a way at least you could message around I mean look the notion that the that inflation I mean inflation is obviously a huge problem for this Administration as a political matter we've talked about it a hundred times economic management I don't think and maybe this is too much of a green room argument but you know the notion that that that this this is the now the Harris economy strikes me as a little bit hard to sell the Border though you'll see lots of there is lots of video out there you know where I think early on because someone will check me on this I think you know she did an interview at some point early in the administration where after he had said that she was that he he Joe Biden had said to the vice president you know you're in charge of the border and she did an interview she where she admitted she'd never been to the Border I mean it was like there's more there's there's there's tougher video out there on on her because that was very much a thing he put on her plate and then she you know there there's going to be a lot more Grist to that Mill Grist for that Mill I think than there is necessarily on the economic stuff but yeah I agree with you Mike it's this is the thing you got to figure out a way to untie that knot where it doesn't look too much where everything doesn't become the Biden Harris this the Biden Harris that I'm interested in what ax said though about about this the cover up notion whether that actually Cuts I don't I don't know the I don't know what I think it cuts right now but I think the whole issue of Joe Biden and age is f fast now the Republicans going to try we need him out of the oval he just tried to attack Canada thinking he was pushing the button for applesauce but that's hor [ __ ] and and I I think the the grip Biden's relevance every day to the headlines should be supplanted by her campaign of energy and change if they're good and I think they they they'll figure that out yeah so I think the teeth of the whole Biden thing will fade in the rearview mirror we we'll see but the Border stuff is is is serious and and they they need to have an answer to Hyman's point this is the other video that they began airing like pretty quickly after Harris serviced as the candidate if you ever wondered how Joe Biden could get the border so screwed up remember he had help here's Biden appointing kamla Harris to be his borders are to deal with illegal immigration and here are a record number of illegal immigrants 10 million and Counting flooding over the Border after Harris was put in charge of stopping illegal immigration to be fair Harris got off to a rough start by ignoring the Border do you have any plans to visit the Border I I'm here in Guatemala today I at some point you know we are going to The Border we've been to the border so this whole this whole this whole thing about the Border we've been to the Border border we've been to the Border you haven't been to the Border I and I haven't been to Europe and I mean I don't I don't understand the point that you're making so probably the worst moment of her even worse that was even worse I remember it I remember start with the Royal wi then stretch all the vows waiter there's a fly in my suit and then throw in Europe to cap the thing so yeah that's a trifecta there so you know that's a pretty tough attack and I think you're going to see more of that one of the things that concerns me is as they get organized here they're basically not on the air uh and they are being attacked at a pretty significant uh but don't you think they will be know they yeah but I mean I'm saying that like I would this shouldn't be a matter of weeks it should be a matter of it should be tomorrow right exactly exactly so that's something uh to be uh uh that something to be concerned about um but you know just another point that they have a money Cannon now they can probably sustain if they can do the 10 days right so I would not be conservative and I would blow out the doors spend it all and then raise another hundred if you had but you know what they have to have an operation to do that Mike Donan the way the ads work before this president's guy Mike donellan would work with one producer tell him his ideas the guy would produce stuff and Mike would pick an ad and they'd put it on the air they don't Mike's not there I don't think anymore and uh you know they've got to very quickly build an operation uh to do this perhaps the super pack should and will fill in that fill in the uh U fill in the breach but listen guys there are a couple of uh things that are coming up that uh will I think uh influence the course of this race one of them is The Pick of a VP uh and generally that's a superflu thing this seems more important to me uh this time yeah it's her first big decision the the normal definer um and I just want to interject one thing before we pivot to VP which is important I I just think the other here's here's the scary part with her I think Trump is g to overplay it because you know she's already got a big condo well with women either yeah and he doesn't handle it well so Trump will the Republican Party knows in its DNA how to run against a a da from San Francisco but Trump will go crazy he already has uh she's got to be very careful as Trump interjects race into this thing uh she's got to keep her eye on Square America and if it becomes the hippest uh you know what BR and pop stars and all that and we're with it you're not the energy in that is old versus young but it can get into a bad Corner pretty quick that it's a woke Paradise of a nobody nobody is nobody's better equipped to speak for square America than you Mike Murphy I am the god king Square America so on behalf of all of us in our shorts and black socks uh let let me let me tell you two Downtown Brown Shoes should go though by the way I like it that that Murphy Murphy proved it right there by saying brat rather than brat which I think is really cool which is really cool he really he went for the he went for the sausage thing all right we're going to leave for a minute to pay the power bill and then we'll be right [Music] [Applause] back hey ax I bet you didn't know this but Lumen is the world's first handheld metabolic coach now you're thinking what the hell is that I will explain it to you it is a device that measures your metabolism through your breath and on the app because it's all connected to your phone it lets you know what if you're breathless these are the kind of tricky science questions we get a conference call the folks that Loom the fig out but fundamentally it uses your breath to measure your metabolism with an app it then lets you know if you're burning fat or carbs and gives you tailored guidance to improve your nutrition workouts sleep and even and we're going to need this stress management yeah you know I let you go on because uh you were so enthusiastic but I actually know about this because I have one of these you do yes I do and uh what I know is your metabolism is your body engine it's how your body turns the food you eat into fuel that keeps you going because Mike your metabolism is at the center of everything your body does optimal metabolic Health translates to a bunch of benefits including easier weight management uh hint hint improved energy levels better Fitness results better sleep Etc and Lumen gives you recommendations to improve your metabolic Health all you have to do is breathe into your Lumen first thing in the morning and you'll know what's going on with your metabolism whether you're burning mostly fats or carbs then Lumen gives you a personalized nutrition plan for that day based on your measurements and man I need that you can also breathe into it before and after workouts and meals so you know exactly what's going on in your body in real time and Lumen will give you tips to keep you on top of your health game you know what amazes me how just a few weeks with the Lumen and you can go on forever so if you want to take the next step in improving your health go to lumen.me haacks to get 15% off your Lumen that's len. mhacks for 15% off your purchase thank you Lumen for sponsoring this [Music] episode this thing just bring everything you guys just said brings together a bunch of different things that are worth spending just a couple seconds on one of which is in that ad which which I I'm not I can't see it right but I can hear it there's one Superfluous layer in there which is the cackling like the making fun of her laugh right the the immigration stuff in there is brutal for her right on its own just terrible she's terrible in that in that like maybe the worst moment of her vice presidency right right but then they have to layer on this thing that every woman you know is going to see as misogynist which is like the making fun of her laugh that's like the extra layer of trumpy like yeah let's just go a little further and just mock her nosy white guys I totally agree and they're overplay their hand her smile is great it says young energy the audio not so great but you know the campaign should be she not doing as much anymore by the way I think she's she's she's learned a few things but here go back to this other question that that David just raised which was you know she doesn't have a team right now and and I actually before we whatever else we're going to be doing here I want I'd like to hear what you guys have to say about this because it seems like she's inheriting the the the bulk of the Biden operation you know you said Mike donal's not there there's going to be a few people who are obviously gonna who are not going to stay there General Dylan is staying at least in title I don't know yes at least in title she doesn't really have I mean she has had uh strategist that she's worked with in the past there's also famously she's had a lot of difficulty with staff retention over the course of her career but so it's not like she's got a uh a Carl robe or a a a James Carville or who I take your pick a Doug snuk she's not she doesn't have somebody a guru who she's going to want to bring in and say this is my new Chief strategist at least at least to my she sister and so that is that's a different that's a different thing Mike don't go that's scary Beltway talk there because that's that's the fear and that's the Legacy from last time maybe she's learned but like yesterday on on on on David ax Rod's least favorite Morning Show Morning Joe um you know Joe scar I'm joking it was a joke watch to see what the elites are saying yes I but Joe was but Joe was sort of half kidding half jokingly I think launching the draft Pluff Campaign which is like this there's a lot of people talking about the notion that how do we bring everybody in all hands- on Deck moment you know who are the strategists who could come in to supplement the current team you know and and David you know you and and the thing the core of this that I think is there's a a core of Truth to uh to it is that you guys on the Obama team dealt constantly and successfully in the end with the young first African-American nominee you know and dealing with all of the race and all of the the the the the the combination of of hot button and and and and and divisive racist uh issues that that could be thrown some Subrosa some above the above the above the ground who can I mean are they do you think that they're ready for that because he is Trump is going to both in a vicious way and also listen I I the thing that I that that that would concern me when I was watching the early going was the degree to which there were so many people out there who were who are supporters of her touting the historic nature of her candidacy saying you Dems can't pass her over because she's the first black woman no there was an arum about right to have it I mean the when the right answer is you know why she's the strongest candidate right what are what are the attributes she's bringing to this that are that that make her the strongest candidate we spoke about some of them earlier we didn't talk about that at all in the Obama campaign we never talked about the historic nature of his candidacy he used to say I'm of the black Comm I'm proudly of the black community but I'm not limited to it I'm running for president of the United States not to be the first black president of the United States that's the S you know to Mike's Point the the country is bigger than just the African-American community and you know and liberals who who for whom this is a um an incentive and uh so I I think they have to resist that to your question uh John I I don't know uh I mean I had to say that I was very heartened by the speech she made yesterday because it was right right where it should be uh it was right where it should be it was not about that it was about the work she had done uh you know and how that contrasts with uh Trump and you know she didn't do any of that my view is if people are jazzed by the historic nature of her candidacy they've got eyes they can see they know you don't have to make that for free you don't you do and so you know that's uh now you know I don't know what's going to happen over there you know I revered David he was my partner for years you know um uh you know we had a great partnership in that campaign uh and I think he would be an asset to any campaign that he was involved in how they use him uh you know because I do you know I don't think Jen Ali Dylan I know her as well uh she's she's smart and tough and experienced and I don't think she's hanging around uh to be a potted plant she's hanging around to run the campaign so how they organize and stuff I don't know but they got to make a quick uh decision are are we going to see you guys think we're going to see like is America about to is America and the hacks on tap audience if they don't already know him are we all going to get familiar real quick with Ace Smith is that gonna be I so I I don't know that I don't think her team that Ace we should point out is there a lot of turbulence there he's a regular listener so Ace if you want very successful strategist and uh uh formerly research guy from California and he was he and his firm were very deeply involved in her campaign uh last time I'm not sure they'd be involved uh this time but we'll I mean this is the great kremlinology question though and it's not only if Pluff is the join he's very talented good friend of the show will he have the authority or will will people in campaign say we just need to put him in the window and he's not dumb enough to fall for that Jan Mal Dylan is a worked for and with uh uh David in the campaign and she I think they have a very good relationship and I don't think David's going to be a part of an effort to kind of shove her out in any way so uh we'll we'll see what happens yeah there just got to be clear Authority but these things cannot be subtle there has to be somebody in charge and the problem last time was nobody was in charge and it changed every week and so that is candidate driven let me just finish so has she changed enough to reward that uh cuz this thing they're going to have bad days too I mean I worry about the Stampede a little CU before her speech I thought oh my God is she's going to get defined as a Dei candidate I would have got pritsker to run just to have somebody to beat so she had a big win in a credential going into the convention so we're see the messaging seems pretty good but she's on definitional thin ice right now and these are huge decisions they don't have any time so it's the first real test one one one one just one optimistic note on on this was uh I think that speech was written by her communications director Brian Fallon who we know from previous campaigns he you know he he and I think he's come over he did a good job he did a good job Brian Fallon's a pro yeah so listen on the VP thing as you we started down this road you're right Mike it's the first presidential decision you make and it's a signal about how you're going to govern uh and you know there's a list of people out there I honestly think that there are two most serious candidates on it uh and one is Governor Shapiro of Pennsylvania and the other is Mark Kelly astronaut Mark Kelly I knew you were going to go there senator from Arizona you know you I've talked him up here I think some weeks ago I said boy if you want to screw Trump uh he would be Kelly would be a good candidate because astronaut fighter pilot husband of uh Gabby gords that you know who heroically survived an assassination attempt former congresswoman and has become a leader on the gun safety issue he's moderate he's good on the border and he's from a Battleground State and he's an expert on uh on National Security issues all those things still pertain here and if you want to send a signal of moderation uh he would be uh an excellent choice Josh Shapiro is a incredibly talented young leader from Pennsylvania new relatively new governor um he would be uh you know I don't think you can win this race without winning Pennsylvania if you're the Democrats and uh so he may give her her best she's not a natural P Pennsylvania candidate he may give her her best chance to win that state yeah I think it's a tricky call I mean Kelly on paper is really good I I don't know as an athlete how good he is um politically uh you know but he's he's definitely a contender you you can see the checker board there Shapiro same thing I think there's an interesting Buddha judge angle because that ticket is very modern in tomorrow it might push that envelope too far but boy it's a future and a massive athlete just put a mic in front of him and so I I would not underestimate the IDE he's been out here the last 48 hours or you know he was on Bill Mar at the end of the week yeah heing around he was fast to endorser by the way can I just before you go I've got to throw in this at this Great Exchange when this VP thing was going on with Jared polus the uh Governor of Colorado if she asked you to be her running mate would you accept well Dan we're not we're not even there Dan I appreciate the question I love the job I'm doing you know I love Colorado it's great obviously if if somebody asks I take a serious look at it but uh my phone hasn't run yet look if they if they do the polling and it turns out that they need a a 49-year-old balding gay Jew from from Boulder Colorado they got my number well that's it then we we have a BP that the master stroke no but U but yeah I mean Buddha judge would be uh would if you want someone who can carry a lot of water for you and carry the attack on TV and so on yeah no from the Midwest page but you know the issue is it too much is it too much diversity is game and uh you know so that's a calculation they would I like the modern power of it and I like his ability to perform because I think he's a better performer than Kelly but the Kelly resume the computer likes it better I hate to uh I hate to agree with Mike about anything but um I I do think that I'll said three things one um I I was was that covered the mark Kelly re reelect and and got to watch him a little bit close I think he's tremendous on paper and everything I saw about him is a political athl in terms of the debates that he did everything else I always thought he's not quite not I he's nowhere near as good as Shapiro for instance just as performal Shapiro is a much better performer Pennsylvania I totally agree with you David obviously crucial is there do you get dragged into something that we've all forgotten Democrats were worried about but one thing that was hurting Democratic enthusiasm for a long time which was the war you know you've got you know hit that your bet you're now you're in another you're back to an intern Democratic squ backwards he's it feels like you're having now a discussion about the Middle East that you don't really want to have within the party and you worry about about young energy in the party which she is now capturing very quickly just just putting him on the ticket screw that up and to Mike's Point the thing that I agree with I was talking to to Bob Costa yesterday and and I asked Costa about how he on my podcast and I asked Costa how he thought about these things he said I think about when I think about politicians I think about their ability to withstand political pain and their capacity for political imagination and in that category this is a test of political imagination in some sense I mean how far do you want to push political imagination is is the question but Buddha is the political imagination pick I sat there and watched him on that bill Mah on Bill Mah the other night he was [ __ ] good I mean he did a RI on Jance he did a RI on he's ready to take on Vance in the debate and Vance is good too he did he did a RI on Vance that was cutting and funny and perfectly like exquisitly landed it was like it was mean without being too mean he kind of had those like foe kind of concern for him following the steps of Mike Pence just beautifully done and I thought to myself I hadn't really thought about honestly hadn't thought about Pete for this and watching that I thought you know that would be a that would be a shoot shoot the moon kind of a if it's a Turn the Page campaign there's a very strong there's a strong yes in almost every absolutely at the sort of meta level uh it would be less of a Turn the Page campaign because he's also in the administration and Carries some of that but yeah but she's already got that but go ahead the uh but no no I'm listen first of all he's a great I mean he's a good friend of mine and I uh I've known him since he was you know the young mayor of uh South Bend and I've been impressed by him from the moment I uh I met him so I would I would never for there you go I've been he's peeled me off Gina ramundo the fact that all three choices are Strong by the way there's no clear obvious home run here but the big message future thing I think is appealing and a great athlete is appealing but Kelly can make an argument too so you can't discount him two other names that have been mentioned are Governor Cooper of North Carolina I'm told that he he wants to run for the senate in a couple of years I'm told also that he's really concerned because their constitution allows the lieutenant governor to govern actually govern while he's at of state and they've got you know Mark Robinson the lieutenant govern is running for the Senate they big magga guy and there's a concern of what he would do when he was out of state so I don't know that he's going to even want to be kind of a grey and then Andy bash's trying Andy Basher the very talented governor of Kentucky has been auditioning the last couple of days but you know what back to the big the deep end of the pool I I don't know about throwing him into the deep end of the pool here and I don't know whether those guys help you win these Northern Industrial States you know yeah I I have doubts about that I was going to ask you though I have doubts about that in both those cases I wouldn't mess with the North Carolina thing it just seems too seems to too much if they're going to pull a lucky thing there you don't have to pick a local VP it's greedy it's it's it doesn't give you much back to Kelly and this is a question there's only one of us I believe who lives uh part-time in in in a in a Battleground State actually David you've Liv in two in some ways but in tell Chicago vot in a third yeah but in Arizona like how I this is a question I haven't been to Arizona in in calendar year 202 uh 4 I is it gone I I don't know why come down and visit uh I I think that the Southern Tier States the the sort of Sun Belt states soda states are you know maybe she gives them a better chance in uh in North a slightly better chance in North Carolina between the African-American population and the sort of you know college uh you know Tech kind of community that's uh grown there and so on uh but the general ask I'm asking about Arizona I'm asking about Arizona specifically because if if you can't if Kelly wouldn't get you over the hump in Arizona I don't think there's much of an argument for Kelly I mean I think he's a strong strong candidate but like if you're not going to be able to win Arizona what's the point well the point is that that he is a guy who signifies moderation who touches a lot of uh funny bones with his and and who frankly um he's you know he he can't and I'm not making the argument like I would if I were to be pressed against the wall I'd say what helps you win Pennsylvania and I would make that the the first uh the first argument but Kelly uh you know one thing you want to ask yourself is how is this person going to hold up how is this person going to hold up I think Buddha judge has cleared that bar you know dramatically um you know I think Shapiro is a is a stud performer but uh hasn't been at that level uh Kelly you know I guess my theory on Kelly is he's been through tough races but more than that if you're if you're a fighter pilot and an astronaut and you're and you've survived something terrible with your uh with your wife you you you are comfortable with stress and you know how to handle it and uh so you know but listen they're all strong yeah they those are all three good three good choices again what does it do to win Pennsylvania I agree and to a lesser extent Michigan and Wisconsin uh but also what does it tell us about her because it's her that's the real definition she's what counts you know so the decision is a message and what message does she want to sell yes exactly and that that becomes frankly I think a fork in the road between Buddha judge and make the big macro move or Shapiro Kelly no but but it's not that's not obvious yes you're right that is the fork in the row between them but the other thing about Kelly is if the immigration thing is going to be a big issue uh he's someone who's been you know uh you know he's been a Critic of the administration but he he he is you know he is he's credentialed on that issue and he can help certify her she could say she could say he's going to run the issue you know I mean so though it's weird the karma of it's weird because it's like oh the old VP On the Border trick again she's doing the I don't know it's like a log on an important fire in a good log but does that fire need more fuel or he can fight it it's a tricky one but he can play there that's absolutely everything about everything about the Pete thing feels to me like it reminds me of of Clinton picking Gore in a good way I mean in that you like what are you doing like change the the the to Mike's Point the big Turn the Page thing and it's a generational you know it's bold it doesn't feel calulated doesn't feel calculated in the way that Shapiro and and Kelly both are going to be read as asoral calculation you know yeah yeah and and I I hear all of that and the question just is you know Clinton and Gore were two uh they were young they were future oriented they also were from the south they also were white men uh so you're not throwing they also felt you know they were comfortable campaigning in you know those kinds of venues uh you're throwing a lot of change at people uh and the question is though yeah I agree with that but the one thing people ask me during these VP thing because there's always like well pick your opposite and create that's all pick yourself that's what Clinton really did another not an inch of daylight when you when you go pick somebody young to bounce the ticket or purple it the differences become the story you want a you sort of want a buddy you some part of it you want if you're if if if turn the pages what you're selling you want a buddy movie whereas you know Obama wanted something different Bush wanted something different they needed to have the ballast of an older guy I used to joke in speeches if you're Robert Redford's agent and they call you up to do Iron Man 7 uh you're going to say great Bob's out jogging right now he's ready for it well this is going to be a two-hander he's got a sidekick titanium man we're thinking Brad Pit if you're the agent you say well love Brad but we're thinking the sidekick should be a Voda you know you don't want contrast how many people on this how many people listen to this podcast know who apota is I'm just curious It's gonna say a lot about your demo about your demo nodding our listener Joe Biden is noding go on our website and there's like a a 1980s uh translator 1970s 80s 7s yeah so so you can follow along with my well you didn't even catch my Rickles poll when I introduced Puck new Oran hockey pucky I got get us out of this so um two two things I I just want to touch on we should take a qu some quick questions because we haven't been recently we've bad uh one is uh uh we should mention what is obvious but one of the problems that Biden had was this lack of enthusiasm among uh young voters lack of enthusiasm among minority voters this was implicit in our uh conversation before she she can help bring that base back uh one advantage that he had was he was doing better with older voters he was doing better white white white you know white he didn't he wasn't doing great with white workingclass voters but you know uh but he picked up a few points there over say Hillary Clinton when he got elected in 2020 these are open questions so uh we'll see about that the last thing is debates now um you know there was the thought that there probably wouldn't be another debate if Biden stayed on the ticket that Trump wouldn't do it um do you think there will be a debate Will trump do it he was saying the other day well maybe we should switch to some Fox moderators which suggested to me that he wanted to bring in some backup uh uh for himself uh but um will there be a debate and that that seems to me like a great opportunity for Harris yeah she's strong there will be cuz he can't not do it cuz he'd be losing if she's imploded uh into the Hipster San Francisco liberal campaign then he could probably not I don't think that's going to happen I don't think that's going to happen either I think we're I think we're back to I think we're back to now unless there's some catastrophic thing and God knows there can always be I think we're back to a a tossup uh margin of error race again where she's she's the underdog um but but not by a lot and I can't imagine Trump given his ego uh and and what his and what his audience demands of him I mean imagine Trump turning to the the the magga base and saying and making excuses for why he won't go head-to-head with with with Harris they should have gone after him John yesterday when he said he wanted he wanted to switch moderators I mean talk about a a sign sign of weakness they're too busy counting their money right now D they better be able to do two things at once you know or 10 things at once but it's a huge tell to Trump because whenever Trump is working the ra and complaining he's fixed is when he's scared and cornered so they're in his head now which is worth a lot they got to stay there offense I still rate him a you know a pretty substantial favorite in this race just because of the Electoral challenges yeah I agree with that but there's a race now yeah oh there's no doubt there was a race today where there wasn't two days ago you're back to where you were pre- debate I would say right where she where he's the he's the lead are maybe as as mikee said maybe it's a little better but you know she's now back to we're back in she's as I said I think she's a she's an underdog but a slight Underdog and and it's margin of er race where you know we've got this Sprint and a lot it's going to be a lot more fluid too which is the key thing instead of being set in stone the thing is now kind of up for grabs again and so being a slight Underdog is like you can live with that so Kamala and everybody listening I have a plot and then we can go to the music the plot is simple send a couple of gorillas out from DNC headquarters today to whichever of his luxurious Retreats brother axat is at snatch him put him in a room and he has to program the messaging of the convention uh because the convention could go to the wrong way uh the celebration of uh you know one part of America versus another rather than the meat and potato stuff that can win the election thank you for the kind words I'm ruing your life I know but that's a short-term assignment you would do very well it's not necessary because uh the person who's programming the convention is Stephanie cutter our old friend who programmed the 2020 convention which to my mind was maybe the most effective convention that I've seen and I was involved in several so I have no I have no lack of confidence in the convention team I think the convention is going to really really be good uh it just occurs to me now ax is it the case that given your your the fact that you've had that that those season tickets in that box at the United Center for you know 100 years that you're going to still be able to occupy that same box during the convention um but is that like permanently your like a condo for you I think I'm going to be in the city uh in the CNN box uh at the uh convention yakking about this stuff but anyway hit the [Music] [Applause] music if you have a question for the hack send it to us use email join the future hacks onap Gmail hack onap gmail.com or you can leave a voice message on your phone email it to us use your name or call our secret Chicago line just keep it short where we're the blow Hearts here and use your name that number 773 389 4471 I'll repeat it cuz who can remember that 773 389 4471 Mike Murphy Paul wants to know I keep hearing how Maga is the future of my Republican party but can Maga really survive if it's not winning general elections Maga has a terrible track record in general elections what if Trump and other magga candidates lose badly this fall you're like tickling uh his all his all his ayous zones here go go Ahad Paul um let's go off camera let's go off camera for that I don't want to see mik tickles turn off the zoom Paul Paul great question and it's true losing does doesn't work so uh if Trump's a two-time America's biggest loser and he even got beat by a girl yeah I think some of the mega populism is here to stay but there won't be the cult of Aang andang personality and parties are ultimately pragmatic or they go away so yeah I I think uh an outcome of Republican Rubble uh which is a conservative it's hard to get excited about but it's the price of no more Trump I uh I do it I I'm reminded of a friend of mine in the car business who said yeah you know when we bombed Germany into Rubble they built all brand new plant so did Japan and next thing you know they're our biggest competitors so I think there will be a republican reset if Trump blows this election and I would give him the edge right now but uh we'll see if this campaign really takes off I thought you I thought yeah go I thought you were going to make a Barney rubel reference from The Flintstones and going back to the Stone Age but anyway go ahead yeah give me one all right for David Axelrod from Drew can you discuss the pros and cons of Biden withdrawing from the campaign versus resigning the presidency oh good question this is uh Drew you know something that the Republicans are pounding well if he can't run he shouldn't be president I think it's a ridiculous argument uh uh because just because you say I'm not going to run to serve another four years doesn't mean you can't finish the next five months but the uh you know if he had resigned then kamla Harris would be be president and that would invest her with um you know the a stature and perhaps some of the advantages of incumbency but also the disadvantages of incumbency uh and uh she would have to govern to boot between now uh and November so uh on balance uh I'm not sure that uh it would have netted out uh that well in any case uh it was a lot for him to withdraw from uh this race I do think he wants to finish things most notably uh some sort of uh peace deal uh in Gaza between now and when he leaves uh and he deserves the right to do that David don't you think that it's a that that argument is on the merits you could there are counterarguments to it but on the the way the Republicans are making it is it's clearly the argument they're they're just using that argument the well if he's not fit to run he's not fit to serve as a kind of pretext for the other argument they want to make which is that she was involved in was comp absolutely that's all it is that's all this is right is that and and from that standpoint you know the the reality of course is that you know Joe Biden is Prov so far we have no evidence Joe Biden's not pretty good at being president and his performance skills in Under Pressure I and and on television yeah are terrible in front in front of cameras are terrible but we have no evidence to suggest that he's not with with the support of the Holy executive branch that he's not making decisions well on the canest that I don't you know I I don't think you know we'll see how far that goes as I said I think that's somewhat of a vulnerability for everyone involved but you know I think she can handle that John uh Hilman Brian asks an interesting question as a since we were talking about the VP as a registered independent in Maricopa County Arizona which is the uh County the major County around Phoenix 62% of the vote there I'd love to hear your thoughts on a Harris ticket that includes a reasonable Republican like Charlie Baker who now runs the NCAA Larry Hogan who's now running for the senate in Maryland uh or similar I know it makes more sense to tap a Dem from a swing state EG Shapiro but a kid can dream canny uh a kid can dream we're all entitled to our dreams in America ran but uh I would say here's what I'd say you know the kind of fantasies of these kind of crossover tickets uh uh appeal to a very slim number of uh kind of then probably in theory would appeal to a whole bunch of people there's a lot of people in the country who like the idea of bipartisanship and and and and and easing the kind of bitterness of the partisan divide that we've seen America I don't think that is a voting matter I mean start with the fact that nobody votes for the bottom of the ticket so how many votes does it actually get you probably none it gets you a lot of kind of the high concept praise in the from the from people like in the in the in the Press you get a lot of the filter would love that kind of a pick uh but I'll tell you what you'd lose is you'd lose a lot of democratic enthusiasm and the thing that KLA Harris has going for her right now is the fact that she's got the party after all these months of being dispirited in fact I'd say months the last three years lacking in Democratic enthusiasm she suddenly for the first time in this entire presidential cycle has the Democratic party jazzed and the best way to kill that buzz would be to go pick a Republican and put him on the bottom of the ticket I see the appeal at the high concept level I terms of what it would do to your your your your Grassroots fundraising uh your boots on the ground uh the Democratic uh enthusiasm and energy right now it'd be it be really pissing all over that and I think it's for that reason alone as a non-starter yeah look I think that in a race that uh at one level is about democracy and how it functions about bringing the country together I understand the appeal uh of that but a fusion ticket can very quickly become a confusion ticket uh if you try and pair people who are uh on many issues uh quite different and um as we learn take hacks on tap hacks on tap is a good point you put you and Murphy together what's that just right there a train that's the thing that's that's why you don't want to do this yeah actually Brian in a nutshell that's that's a good answer there hman thank you so much a great to talk to you what a big historic week we're going to have a a lot to talk about we'll see you next time see you Mikey Murphy Hilman been a pleasure we're gonna have a lot to talk about in the weeks and months to come so stay tuned and fasten your seat belts it's like paradise for hacks now yes [Music] la [Music] [Applause]