THE STING (1973) Breakdown and Discussion Part 1 | Paul Newman | Robert Redford

can't do it alone you know takes a mob of guys like you and enough money to make them look good I know plenty of guys it's not like playing wios in the street you can't outr run I never played for no w got to keep his con even after you take his money he can't know you took him you're scared of him right down to my socks [Music] Buster hello and welcome once again to the ciles where each week we enter the world of a great film we explore its themes the history the film making and the influence it has on us today my name is Steve Morris I am a filmmaker and directing instructor in Los Angeles California hello everyone my name is John Ro I'm a writer producer and host uh and voiceover artist in San Diego California and excited to be walking back into the world of Redford and Newman or Newman and Redford defending on what you prefer uh as we uh tackle this fantastically interesting movie here Steve uh the sting well I I I I really am excited that we're sort of challenging ourselves in a new way doing our two Donald Southerland movies back to back and now we're doing multiple Redford Newman and plus the great director George Roy Hill back to back and then we're going to continue discussing one of Newman's great films in the 80s with uh the verdict and one of our early films from the ciles that we've been wanting to redo forever with Robert Redford which is the natural and I really like that we're just kind of digging deep into this world for a little while it's fun well yeah because we've got two fantastic artists who've created some incredible work along with the other the directors uh whove been part of making these films and so it's fun to kind of take a we we we we always driving the car but it's always fun to stop and take an exit walk around check out the walnuts or the strawberries uh you know when you're taking a long trip and I think in a way this is what we're doing now with this uh this particular run we've been on lelay so I like it um and of course we also have just as we had in Butch casting the Sundance Kid we have questions from our patrons yeah and of course patreon is one of the best ways to support the ciles you can get adree versions of the show access to our copil shorts which spoiler alert we just recorded one an impromptu one mere moments ago talking about screens and the way the world has changed in the last 30 or 40 years and we also have our Advisory Board which has helped us come up with this new schedule and you can access both adree versions of the show and our copile shorts through Apple podcast just a oneclick subscription right there yeah and also to the people who listen to our commercials you know uh they pop up on the show all the time if any of those products really appeal to you please use our codes that we talk about they're on every one of those uh uh uh sponsor commercials that we do sponsorships are so important for us to keep on doing the show so for those of you who want to find a new way to support us uh and and those products work for you please make sure you sign up and use our code so that those sponsors keep coming back to support us here on the ciles like Fiji Water recently Roundhouse Provisions so many Fantastic uh sponsors have come aboard to say they appreciate the work we do appreciate our audience and want to offer a product that you all might enjoy using so please make sure to explore that if it appeals to you so thank you absolutely thank you very much for all of that support and definitely thank you for clicking on those sponsors um The Sting John I gotta say even before we start it's still funny like I love Butch casting sance kid obviously you know we both have deep love for that film yeah I had thought about it until we got into it but man this is such an influential film you we talk about the influence the film has over time it's like well this movie is so influential on me personally because I've written two con artist movies essentially so like and it's really formative so as we go through this movie there's some things where it's like here's how this inspired me or really here is what I stole from The Sting yeah you know and there's a lot of that but let me ask you a question we always start with which and I believe I know the answer to this how did you first come to this film um I think I saw it a few years ago for the first time on TCM or maybe no I can tell you how you saw it at my house oh really yeah you had not seen it and Karen and I it's one of Karen's favorites and we invited you over and cooked you dinner and showed you the sting maybe 10 years ago well there you go it does feel like it was 10 years ago so there's the answer all right yes well let me answer your question you you and Karen if you forgot made me a wonderful meal and I was able to enjoy the movie with you all cuz I hadn't seen it up until that point for whatever reasons you know and so it it was nice to be able to watch maybe an early ciles episode that was never recorded our conversations during and after the movie yeah it was the prehistory of the ciles yes exactly um for me this is exactly like Butch Butch and Sundance I have no idea when I saw this the first time I certainly know I didn't see the beginning for a long long time you know and it was one that I can't but it was definitely one like Butch casting the sence kid like The Shining like so many other movies where as I'm switching channels if the sting was on I'm in and I'd watch the rest of it yeah yeah a bit of pre-production so the this is written by David S Ward and who was a young screenwriter and he was sort of interested in pickpockets and I'm not exactly sure why he started researching pickpockets but researching pickpockets led him to a book called the big con the story of confidence by David Mau it's a 1940s book and it's follows the real life confidence Men Brothers Fred and Charlie gondorf yeah oh and so a lot of this is the ideas in it and the cons in it are where the movie comes from and Ward is reading this and going why hasn't anyone made a movie about this right so he sits down takes him a long time to write the screenplay over a year for reasons that we'll get into as we go along he sends it off to a bunch he's not represented by an agent or anybody and it goes in What's called the slush pile and the slush pile is a is a box of scripts that agents have and that Studios have and Executives had and it's basically all the crap that comes in and they force their assistants to read them which of course is the plot of the assistant is about a slush pile and assistants reading it which is the one of the first connections and this young assistant reads this script and writes the coverage that says this could be a great American screenplay and awardwinning major cast major director film he hands this to his boss who is Mike metao who will soon be a studio head but at this moment is basically a big powerful agent and he says to his young assistant okay I will try to sell this but if it doesn't sell you're fired wow classic classic Hollywood [ __ ] agent guy to his assistant he sold it to Universal Studios that afternoon the same afternoon he got the coverage this young assistant took that coverage framed it and has it on his wall to hit this day and that assistant I feel like I'm doing the rest of the story and that assistant is Rob Cohen director of dragon the Bruce Lee Story and dragon heart daylight fast of the Furious that was his his first claim to fame is he's the guy who pulled the sting out of the slush pile wow yeah back then isn't that crazy amazing that is crazy that is amazing so and initially it was going to be a bunch of young people making this movie and initially they were going to have David S Ward the screenwriter directed who was a first-time director wanted to be a director later on directs another movie we've done on the ciles which is he did Major League 20 years later too high too high but so he was going to direct it with a bunch of young actors and one of the directors that they went after is Jack Nichols to play the Robert Redford role oh interesting and he read the script and basically what he said was he was 100% sure that this movie would be a hit but he was more interested in doing Chinatown and The Last Detail and so he turned it down can't deny that yeah absolutely and it makes sense yeah and this brings us to our very first question which comes from Patron Adam mallister who asks um Jack Nicholson turned down the role of hooker would this film still have worked with Paul and Jack as the leads I may be one of the only people that thinks it's still have could could have been an all-timer I think no I think Jack Nicholson in the Paul Newman role would have worked but not Jack Nicholson in the Robert Redford role there's a I don't know there's a sympathy you feel with with Robert Redford in the film The frustration and the anger I never felt that way with any of the films with Jack you like like even when he's trying to get Vengeance even when he's supposed to be the goody guy Jack always has that devilish smile or that impish little smile of his that he can never take away from his performances until until about Schmidt that was like the first time I'd seen that there was another Jack Nicholson in there that really could deliver a a performance full of posos you know and so uh I I don't think it would have worked quite as well um with Paul Newman and Jack Nicholson necessarily so to me one of the pieces of magic of this movie and the most delicate thing in this movie is setting up whether or not you can trust Robert Redford hooker right that is and it is handled with such a deaf touch it is so right on the line of exactly where it needs to be in this film yeah and if you have Jack Nicholson instead of because I agree 100% with you you initially will not trust him because he's Jack he's Nicholson and that is going to change that balance just enough that you won't get this magic that's my feeling yeah you might steal the scenes from Paul as well yeah and by the way David as Ward is a fascinating guy and I mean this was his second script to write something this incredible and your second script right and then does a really quietly unappreciated film from the 1980s with Robert Redford the malro beanfield war then Major League then it becomes weird because then you get King Ralph but then you get Sleepless in Seattle and then he does the other does does a fly boys and so it just he had this Heyday in the 70s and was still able to Parlay to the occasional hit in the 80s and 90s but never quite captured the level of artistry that you find in the sting you know I I I just want to continually point out like this is why this is the evidence that making movies is really really really really [ __ ] hard yeah is that like if you had I mean I guess you have this in sports to where you have a player come along and they have a great season and then they kind of fizzle after that that certainly does happen but frequently statistics in sports are statistics and you could see okay that person is that good to some degree I would think yeah but but in movies you could come along and make the sting yes and just never be able to kind of put that together part of it is that Hollywood is so crazy and notes are so development is really crazy and we never know the story of movies but also it's so delicate and this movie in particular is delicate yeah so it goes to Redford and he reads it and he thinks it's great he says I believe that this needs a master filmmaker is that this needs someone who with an incredibly deaf touch and I'm totally supportive of David S Ward directing it but if he does you have my blessing and I will not be in it wow yeah like and and I and I respect like the way he sounds like he handled it really well he's like I want you to make a great movie personally I think this needs this this can't be a first-time director and so go for it yeah and Universal basically goes hm hm Robert Redford or not Robert Redford and so they decide well we're just going to I think we're gonna get a real director and so uh George Roy Hill comes on no Paul Newman at first and it's just George Roy Hill and at that time the gondorf part was much smaller it was really a hooker is the leite it's not a two-hander it's a one-hander with a great supporting character and the character of gondorf is written as this heavy set over the hill you know guy not as this not as Paul Newman and uh I'm going to go in later about how Paul Newman finally comes on the show when we meet him but uh uh George does a lot of rewriting he's working this is zanak and brown who would you know one of the most storied uh producing teams of the 70s um are working with him and and what it sounds like is George Roy Hill was tough yeah but in a way that it it would it wasn't tough the way like John Ford was tough he was like once he made a decision that was the decision yeah um and he definitely definitely scared the studio people like they didn't he was military background they didn't like coming up against him because he was just really strong in what he wanted to do he had a two week rehearsal process and what it sounds and everyone was there including Newman and including Robert Shaw and what it sounds like was that Newman and Redford both showed up really committed to playing characters in this ensemble and not being movie stars that is what I have heard well that makes sense because they're both actors first movie star second yeah yeah and and everyone and I've heard you know Ray Walston and all all all all of these actors who came in Charles dering and all of them said right from the rehearsal process there was magic like they they knew some and apparently once they started the rehearsal process basically they didn't change a word of this script wow um shall we get into the film yeah yeah let's do it I love that we start with that oldtime Universal logo yeah and then that music comes in and it is the [Music] sting yeah the rag time music Marvin hamlish composer by the way one of my favorite people growing up as a young kid in the 1970s was Marvin hamlish uh because he would go on these Saturday morning shows there was an ABC one I can't remember it was for kids and he would play Just impromptu stuff uh off the bat like I think he would he had a he had a uh a segment where a kid would come up and write a story and he would put the story to music right impromptu it was incredible to watch the talent that Marvin Hames had and of course this is the one of the beginning people in my life that turned me into an honorary Jewish person because I just loved Marvin hamlish and uh I Lov the way he presented things and he always felt like this kind of fatherly unly energy uh when he was on these shows and watching him with a piano was marvelous so I was very happy when we watched the when I watched the film with you guys 10 10 years ago uh that Hames was the guy who was the composer for the score here it it's so he's such an odd character at a very specific time because he's not in a way he becomes the B biggest thing in music right around this you know between this and going all the way to a course line you know and they're playing Our Song and all you know it's like and he's becomes a celebrity and he's on The Tonight Show and he's as you said playing piano and all this stuff yeah is he's this strange I will say kind of nerdy Jewish guy and yet he becomes super cool for this brief period of time and of course we'll get into we'll say it when we get to the very end but he's also an egot you know yes yes and I will say next to like the Nobel Peace Prize the egot being an egot is pretty damn cool yes it is um I say I would say they go like Nobel Peace Prize Congressional Medal of Honor OT in my rankings yeah um and by the way so how here's how here's how this music came along which is George Roy Hill apparently was quite a good piano player and he discovered Scott Joplin about halfway through making this movie and started playing it and started playing Ragtime he played it for red on the piano he goes to David S Ward says I want to use this for the music and of course David S Ward goes that's crazy rag time is the totally wrong era it's that's like turn of the century 1908 1910 this movie takes place in the 30s he Ward had been listening to nothing but like classic Blues from the 30s as he was writing this thing he's like this music is totally wrong yeah and basically what George Roy Hill said to him he's like you were one of the only people who actually knows where this music is from it doesn't matter when the music is from it matters how the music feels yeah so he brings it to Marvin hamlish and he goes I want the score to be based on Scott choplin and Ragtime and hamlish immediately it sounds like Keys into what it is which is that Ragtime is telling you it tells you specifically this is fun yeah you're gonna have fun with this it's enjoyable and it's and and he so he's composing for the movie and and and I think the way the music we'll get into it as we go along but the way it fits in the music movie is very different because just like in Butch casting sance kid as you remember mentioned he doesn't want to score under dialogue so it's always when we go to the music we go to a musical section yes you know what I mean it's very different and so hamlish is composing the score and George Goes I would like to play it on the recording session the director and hamlish is kind of like I'm a pretty good piano player I kind of think I should be the one playing and basically they said whoever gets to the piano first gets to play it on the next session and Hamas just made sure he was always an hour early to the recording sessions so he had staked out the piano so George rooy Hill would stay the hell away from it wow this you know but that's the I don't know that's the hubris right of someone like George Roy Hill and because I mean Marvin was a child prodigy like five years old he was he got into a prej art school at seven years old for God this this is the kind he was like in a way because as we remember from that scene where he is playing the March that ceri is just achingly come up with Marvin Hamish was doing it at five years old on a Pian he was like listening to songs and as the songs were playing he was he was doing the notes when he was listening for the first time he was doing the notes on the piano just from listening to it the first time and so he just had this gift you know wow the arrogance of George Roy why not let Marvin shoot a few scenes there George yeah George George uh and then we get these beautiful title cards that we'll see throughout the film uh these are drawn by uh jaroslav who's known as Jerry gber and he and the whole idea was to have them look like those classic covers of the Saturday evening post yeah you know and they again like the music we're being put into this time and place and then we go through and see film of all the credits which I love you know of Newman and the tux and we see Redford with his flowers Robert Shaw at the poker game and go through them all and I think this sets up it's so funny because I think this is a very different movie from Butch casting the Sundance Kid and completely sets up its own feeling and its own flare right at the beginning yeah yeah and I think they're making it very clear this is not butch Cassi and Sunan K this something completely different yep um it's much more proper in its approach yet it does have like you know uh uh con games going on but it's much more proper in how it's approaching it the music comes to an end and now we're at Juliet Illinois it say September 1936 and the camera moves in and we see this is the depression and beat up cars and trash on the ground and torn coats and we watch the shoes walking as they go up these stairs spats spats nice and most of this was shot on the universal back lot oh nice and it's great the set it looks so good it looks so much like the sting dud yeah and very much the art director is Henry Bumstead the cinematographer is Robert El stiz and they worked really hard on dividing creating this color palette of muted Browns and Maroons and the way the lighting work and all of it combined to make it's so interesting because whenever you shoot a period piece it is always that era's version of that period And this is the stings version of the 1930s depression you know yeah Joliet of course is the name used by John Lui in in the Blues by this jolet Jake jolet Jake a shout out to Illinois yeah yeah so we see this guy head up into this room where there's all this gambling go on pass a secretary we're into a phone call and we see of course the oldfashioned phones and all that stuff yeah and there we see comes who I think is Arch Johnson is the actor and he's on a phone call with someone talking about some money deal and that they've had some problems Arch Johnson if some of you may remember him from GI blues uh the was Ley movie uh one of his last few roles was in uh Rody Dangerfield's Easy Money uh movie which some of you may have watched but yeah an actor a veteran actor's been a number of TV shows from the uh 60s and 70s um and uh done occasional popins on movies and this is one of those uh moments where you catch him in something here on on a on a theater in a theater and it doesn't really matter what the phone Call's about there's something about money and how much money they're bringing in and that they have to get the cash up to where and finally at the end of it we we call up uh matala who's their Runner and says hey you got to take this up to Chicago on the 415 uh and he hands him this big envelope filled with money but already establishing like this is uh there's a operation going on and they're falling behind because the exchange on the phone with these guys Granger and uh the other dude is is all about the fact that their area Joliet there is not holding up there into the bargain all the other cities are over or performing or overperforming or performing better than they are and so that you you're you're already setting up a bit of a competitive nature within this uh operation uh and then mata's got to take but of course you seeing him also be a little uh of a jerk a little bit of a jerk to the receptions the female receptions there the phone so you get the sense that there's this is a different time this is a different world and so you get a a glimpse into it right off the bat to set the mood for the rest of the movie so uh matala goes off with his stack of money in his jacket pocket heads down the stairs and suddenly just as we're out there we hey hey you stop there stop him he's got my wallet stop him stop that man he's got all my money and we see it's it's the middle of a of a crime you know what always think of it by the way this is the beginning of Spider-Man which is whether or not he stops that criminal running out it's totally that moment yeah and are we going to stop the guy that's robbed this uh African-American gentleman who's on the ground y's got his wallet and Redford who's standing there throws this suitcase knocks out the guy's legs he gets up with a knife but then ends up running away limping yeah uh leaving the wallet on the ground so Steve the first time you watched this did you know this was a setup can you remember wondering if this was a setup cuz I mean I I think I I couldn't tell you I couldn't tell you if I remember that cuz I was probably too little what what about you what do you think yeah I I had no idea it was a con the first time I watched it right because you're like it's so well played off and uh the key the Eerie kid who we find out is the one who was pulling the knife on Robert because it's all a con uh you had you just didn't know that that was a person that would that this whole thing was set up with these three especially when you have a black an older black gentleman being a part of it you're like wait what at this time really so there is you have the questions initially and then when you find out it's a con it's like oh man that's genius it's so funny thinking about the mechanisms of a con and and and where I really learned it I had watched this movie over and over again but then it's the movie House of games the with Joe Mona the the um uh David Mammoth film yeah where Joe Mona explains a Confidence Game the basic idea is this it's called a Confidence Game why because you give me your confidence no because I give you mine is that the key to the confidence game is that the con man trusts the mark they make the mark feel trust and that they also are banking on the Mark's desires yeah the the Mark has to be the one that makes the thing work and this is why and I I'll talk about it more as we go along I think the fact that so my first movie that I wrote that got made was called Stonebrook and it starred Seth Green and Brad row and Stanley camel and it's a Conor movie and I think the fact that that was my first film was the Great screenwriting lesson I could ever have in my life oh interesting and the reason is is because the way a con works is that you have to understand the other person's motivations and manipulate their motivations so that they want in one way or another to give you their money yes they have to want to do that and understanding the layers of what motivates somebody to want to do something is the secret that's the central lesson of screenwriting yeah why does someone want to do it's motivation yeah you know yeah I think we all are conmen and con women to a certain degree right exactly that is my point yes when you're putting on your best suit for that first dat or your best outfit for that first date or you're wearing the right cologne in essence that's a con when you're trying to present the best parts of yourself in an interview in essence that's a con you know so there's there's all kinds of versions of how we we uh perform little cons in our lives not necessarily to you know steal money for people but certainly to get something you know well they're not necessarily dishonest no right but you always want people we always care how people receive us or feel about us we always want to get the job or get you know we want someone to like us we want that's what we want all the time you know and so like and the thing about the reason that a con movie is so great in terms of a screenwriter right is because you have to track everything on multiple levels because and this is what is Central to this whole movie is that for this what makes this movie work is that all the motivations of the con work perfectly and all the motivations behind the con work perfectly so every and they work on every because at some point there're three or four levels which is what makes this a super hard screenplay to write so like because it has to make sense all the way down and when you look at it it's just like the six sense or any other film that you have to be able to watch the second time and go does it still all work oh yeah it all still works right and that's really really hard so we've just taking out this guy that's robbed this person his wallet's on the floor the crook runs away and we get the wallet back to this uh this actor who looks strangely familiar this guy that's been mugged he isn't exactly a famous person that I know but he really looks familiar John who is this he looks familiar and he sounds familiar for those of you who maybe uh were like wait why does that sound like yes it sounds like James Earl Jones why because that is James Earl Jones's dad uh Robert Earl Jones here um you know fantastic actor who was also on the stage performed with his son a few times on stage as well he was in The Sting obviously Sleepaway Camp witness are some of the movies that he was a part of he was a one-time sparring partner for Joe Lewis in 1937 uh before he dropped out of all of that to pursue acting so uh an interesting uh gentleman and a fantastic actor himself who was honored with a Lifetime Achievement Award from the national black theater Festival um and here's another part of his history he was um and I didn't know this that this happened to Black actors he was blacklisted in the early 1950s and was called before the house of unamerican Activities Committee to hak uh because of his involvement in the leftist movement of the late 1930s so kind of crazy um and then ran the New York City marathon uh several times up until 1996 so until 96 how old so when what year was he born uh 1910 so he was 86 86 he died in 2006 let that sink in wow that's that is crazy he you said title man you need a doctor I'll call a cop no no no no cops and immediately Redford is suspicious you want to buy the law or something and we see that there's a ton of cash in his wallet and of course we see that this other Runner also sees a ton of cash are you nuts carrying a water around like that in a neighborhood like this no wonder you got hit thanks I'm obliged to you but I got to get going and he tries to get up falls down and then we hear that he is actually running some slots for the mob or something and he got behind on his payoffs he's got a bunch of money he's got to get it to him by four or he's going to get killed and don't look good grabs it's almost four now I'll give you and your friend 100 bucks to deliver it for me and this is the thing he's got $5,000 in this thing we think it's $5,000 of course it's really just mostly paper and he's got and he needs it delivered and he's offering a 100 bucks and this is again what is the motivation he's playing on with the mark which is the Mark's greed yep so Redford whose name is Johnny hooker by the way says he's not interested how about you all you got to do is to put in the do slot I'll give you the whole hund hey what makes you think you can trust him he didn't do [ __ ] hey but out chicken Li I gave him back the wallet didn't I and he gets the infro he gets the address okay old man I'll make your drop for you and don't worry you can trust me and then redf for goes who whoa wait a minute and this is where the con happens if those goons decide to search you you ain't going to get far carrying it there what do we do you got a bag or something how about a handkerchief here's a handkerchief here give it to me wait wait do you got any other money you don't want your other money to get stolen so this guy takes the envelope out of his jacket which has 10 or 11 Grand or whatever it is sticks it in with the paper Redford sticks it into his pants says ain't a tough guy in the world that's going to Frisk you there which by the way I completely disagree I think I think tough guys will Frisk anywhere yeah and then he reaches back into his pants pulls out what we think is the same wad of papers hands it to him he sticks it down his pants runs off jumps in a cab and then this is the this is the trick to maybe the whole movie which is that we don't want to watch our bad guys be criminals I mean but casting this undan kid are criminals and they skate that really well by having Butch be so affable and they never want to kill anybody right here these are also criminals but the big thing is they're only in the course of the movie robbing bad guys because what happens when the guy gets in the cab he says which way is Mason 20 blocks south okay go north J station fat right he was going to steal the money yeah totally and they knew this and I'm sure they cased him I'm sure they asked around town about this guy and they knew what his as you said with a a good con you got to understand what the motivations of the the other person is and they clearly knew this guy was uh going to be greedy and would fall for it easily what's so funny I just made the world's easiest five grand he reaches into his pants he pulls out that water paper and guess what it's just a water paper it's just Walter's undies it's just Walter Walter undies the Whites Whites um so here is the first thing that I stole so in Stonebrook which I don't even know if it's available on streaming but I still it's a pretty good movie I wrote a con which was a pool hustle mhm and I stole an element of this Con for that pool hustle which is what the real crime is is that Redford swi switches the packages yeah that's what's really happening he already has an a package of empty paper down his pants he puts this one down his pants pulls the empty one out and hands it to the guy that's the actual con so here's the con I did in Stone Brook because I wanted to do a pool hustle and so there is a pool a hustler and what a hustler does is that they lose a bunch of games and then get the BET really high and then win the games so I had my main characters go up against the pool Hustler and they were winning several games and getting the BET high and then the whole point was they were going to lose the BET and then Seth Green who's kind of The Mastermind of the whole thing was going to do an envelope swap exactly what's in this movie oh wow um and so we're the director I'm the writer I'm on the set the director's directing it and he's just having our main character win the pool game and I'm like no you've misunderstood the con the whole point is that he can't win the pool game because that's a pool I remember just being on the set trying to explain the con to the director who didn't understand it so that he could shoot it in the right way so we're running away it's after the con of course Luther who had been down on the ground bleeding a minute before is running no problem they're laughing about how great it was they reaches into this envelope pulls it out and holy crap that's a lot of money Luther good God we're millionaires Jesus do you know where is that loaded hell no I just cut into him I would have settled for p in one of them shoes so they look down and it's 10 grand which is from 1936 is $226,000 today yeah can you imagine you just RI some guy off for 226 Grand yeah you know what's crazy knowing today it wouldn't even feel like a million it wouldn't even remotely feel like a million dollars but yeah it would be nice to get $226,000 off one afternoon's work yeah yeah well that's what Jeff Bezos makes like every minute so every second probably yeah something like that and it's obvious from the relationship that uh Redford is the kid you know yeah like he's partners with Luther and he's like the young hot kid yes uh which brings us to a question from Patron Laura Brody who says I heard one critic say that Robert Redford was a little long in the tooth to play the kid role in The Sting what's your reaction to this that's a great question I mean we're not that far removed from Butch Cassidy in the Sunday I was like four years later but Redford has done quite a few movies in that span of time and certainly has come into his own as an actor in that span of time so I can see how critics might have felt this way right because you look at Jeremiah Johnson and the candidate and The Way We Were are all around this time and so is downhill Racers so You could argue that he has got but but but Redford has always had that face of his that is kind of older than it actually is do you know what I'm saying and it serves him well in the candidate because he comes across as kind of this green guy in terms of the politics but then eventually the seasoning happens and he kind of Embraces things by the end so I I think in this way it still kind of works because Newman is older so it still makes it feel like like he's the kid and I think having him be with someone like uh Robert Earl Jones Luther there who radiates an older energy obviously it helps him like stay young by comparison so to speak so I have several thoughts about this the first is is that uh in a few weeks we're going to be jumping into a role where Redford is clearly too old which is for the First Act of the natural yes and yet I completely accept him in that role 100% despite the fact that it doesn't make sense so interesting to me and we'll get to it when we get to Newman as well is that in Butch casting the Sundance Kid Butch is older than Sundance yes but they are peers right right you know and here it's you know four years later in the real world we're going to be in a movie where Newman is cast as significantly older than Redford right and it one 100% works for me I don't bump on this at all okay and I really go I think if you want to see like yeah they're great all sorts of Great Performances in the world and I'm not saying that Newman and Redford in the sting or Butch casting the sance kid should be listed as our great performances right I mean they're great I love them but they're not like you don't go like oh this is you know right Denzel Washington in in um training training day yeah training day was what I was trying to come up with yeah I mean there so I don't put these performances there but if I if you want to see the art of the actor watch Butch Cassie and the Sundance Kid and then watch The Sting same two guys same Charisma same Star Energy of Newman and Redford yeah different characters yeah they're they're just different I think Redford can act that's why it doesn't seem too old to me also just because you're called a kid doesn't mean you're a kid right especially in a world ironically Redford was born in 1936 so this is his birth year where this this is set so you know I would argue that although he may be a maybe a little bit long in the tooth for it uh it's not meant to imply that he's a child it's meant to imply that he's still knew in the game or got in the game when he was young and just kept the nickname so to speak yeah I I don't bump on this at all and and then we go we see Redford he goes off we're listening to that great music he buys a new suit he buys some flowers he's looking very stylish in his way heads off to the Ye Old burlesque house backstage where he's obviously knows people and has been there before well he knows people he knows people and there he's waiting for I won't say it's his girl but for a dancer who is on stage to come off and that is Sally Kirkland yes a young Sally Kirkland shaking it there on the stage and this is a great like window into this guy right he pulls this Con he's super excited about the money so is obviously Luther but the first thing he does is exactly what Robert dairo told you not to doing good Fellas he went got a a Cadillac for his in his mom's name a f he just when did all this stuff like go get the spats how are you not going to stand out and show people that you know that you came into this money it's it's so stupid what he does here but he looks Dapper as hell and he walks in with his confidence like you get used to seeing me like this you guys are going to see me like this but look um Crystal's not even that impressed she wants to stay and do she even says to him what are you marrying somebody so even she knows she's not his girl or doesn't want to be his girl and she wants to work the other shift later on that night for $5 uh so clearly you know he's living in some kind of fantasy land of what he thinks this money is going to do to his life you know and I think the key to it is what you just said which is that she knows that she's not his girl and he knows that this isn't his girl exactly he's just living in this fantasy this moment and I love where she's like no I got to work I need the five bucks and he says I'll spend 50 on you yeah and she's like in okay so they so they head out they go into this bar there's this gambling they go up to a roulette wheeler ain't seen you in months thought maybe you took a fall now just a little hard times at all everything's Jake now and they think he's going to put 10 bucks down on on on something on the roulette wheel yeah he he pulls out the entire water cash and he throws $3,000 down on red yeah and it's just like so again it's just because I you know I looked up what the what the 10 grand is well if you do your math $3,000 is 67,8 86 good God good isn't it it's funny too how we think about money because I had the reaction of you of like okay quarter of a million dollars that's a lot of money yeah but you said that's not like getting a million you know but the idea of gambling $66,000 on one throw is particularly when you're broke and hooker's broke yeah is broke yeah this is this is several years of worth of money for him that he throws down for the rest of his life yep hooker hooker can't accept that it's too big a bet there's a house limit take it but hooker here take it and there's a look and they run the roulette and we see him reach down under the table and push a button and the ball ends up on black and this is a hint to what is going to happen through this entire movie in that everything is a frame everything is a cheat and so we're getting like from the first con that we got that we just talked about e to uh This Moment here and going forward all these people are involved in a cheat in a system of cheating yet all of them get upset when the other one cheats cheats them you know what I'm saying they're all a part of it and we'll see that in the card game with with uh Robert Shaw's character later on in in in the discussion so yeah I a I think that's a fantastic point B hooker came in and this guy recognized him they talked about him throwing a t spot down or something right has hooker come and this guy cheated for him in the past I think so so do I I I think so and he's helped him out when he could right and this is asking too much of it exactly yeah I I think it was like Hey you come down you bet 10 you make you make 30 bucks you throw me five yeah it's all cost of doing business right and then hooker walks in and throws down three grand yeah it's like dude I can't I'm G to get killed I can't do that which is what he says afterwards yeah I could do that lucky for me it came a black hooker like he get in big trouble around here losing a bet like that and what's interesting too is that hooker realizes it don't worry about it pal it was my mistake there's always more with that game which actually you know I'm so I hadn't thought about it but until you brought it up you're 100% right because this it's not just that we see cheating throughout this is the end of the movie this is hooker has just lost a big bet to the cheat and and knows that he's been cheated and unlike Doyle he goes uh okay yeah one last piece of wonderful movie trivia this roulette table with the button under it mhm was used in a little movie called Casablanca oh same roulette table and Crystal Sally Kirkland is just like she's so pissed oh my God I mean first of all if you take the girl out and you promise to spend 50 on her you got to spend the 50 before you blow the three grand right exactly know blow all and cost to her $5 yeah made working that though she probably could have gotten back in time to do the 10:00 show but who knows you still cost money thanks for the big evening hooker next time you want to spend 50 bucks on me mail it and she's gone Sally so unrecognizable in this role totally and of course goes on to do a bunch of things and Anna is the big movie in Sally Kirkland's career that that's what gets her nominated for like Golden Globes and uh and what have you so but kept working consistently through a number of years to into the 90s and whatever so a good good actress was drunk in a dive in juliad he never got on the train I don't want to hear about his day Greer what happened to the money he lost it to a couple of con artist on his way out of the spot okay I better get on the phone to New York see what the big Mick wants to do about it we're just setting up what the what the conflict is going to be we go to this very fancy looking Casino we follow a runner who gets the phone call Whispers to this h who is Floyd uh and this guy has a fascinating face and I feel like I've seen him recently uh that is Charles dearcop who you're talking about there uh interesting cat he was also in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid oh yes I have seen him recently so I think that's uh where you saw him not I mean not too much of note past those films I guess that uh you know when I was doing a little bit of research for him uh certainly found his way into doing 80s TV like chips and Fantasy Island and TJ hooker and all of that and uh did Silent Night deadly night he played killer Santa that may be another claim to fame that he has playing the killer Santa in that particular movie but before he did those movies uh with Butch Cassidy and with the sting he was a consistent Booker of shows in the 1970s and 60s as well even played even was in a Batman show in 1968 one of the episodes of Batman and all and those of you who uh need to know what character he was in Butch casting suance kid he was flatnose Curry which of who of course was against Butch and then was all about W once he beat Harvey Logan so yeah I think I I remember uh Frank kapra talking about how important it was with supporting characters to cast voices and faces and if you think of a Kaa movie you have like the guy I think this guy's got to do you know or that the actually the voice is similar to Major League with what's his name like L Brown BL Brown is like that's casting a voice and sudden as you cast a face where every time you see that face it is just and that's what I think Floyd is in this movie is that he doesn't have a lot of lines but he has a presence because his face is so interesting to look at you know yeah um and we can see he doesn't want to bring the bad news to the big boss he walks up to Robert Shaw's back and Whispers to him and this is the first Glimpse we get of one of it's amazing that Robert Shaw does this and then does Jaws back to back yeah I mean and I I will just say and I'm sure you probably have information on Mr Shaw but initially yeah um George Roy Hill wanted Richard Boone to play lonigan Oh interesting I don't get that at all Richard Boone and from what and from what I understand Paul Newman secretly sent the script to Robert Shaw without talking to George Roy Hill about it because he thought this is who should play it Shaw reads the script and his comment was ious when do I start by the way if you want to do yourself a favor go and find old interviews with Robert Shaw like on the Dick cabitt show and they're all YouTube I've I've fallen into wormholes with Robert Shaw because I mean to me he's never done anything better than Quint and even when I go back and watch him in taken of pum one which he did right after this movie it was it was this was the the three a pretty good run here because he had the sting right into the taking of pelum 123 and then right into jaws and a it's a two-year window where that all happens uh for him and I think that's and yeah he's in Robin of Robin and Maran and the Deep which I think is great force 10 from naon and what have you and and then of course um uh passes away in 1978 at the very young age of 51 um but like when you watch him in these uh interviews he's an incredibly intelligent dude oh yeah but you can tell you don't want to [ __ ] with this guy so such a perfect choice for this character to play LAN here I I think he's such an excellent choice and I'm telling you rewatching the movie again for our show and we're gonna get to the scene obviously a little bit later in our conversation but when Paul Newman making fun of him throughout the whole card game I I'm on the edge of my seat like I'm like stop stop doing this you're gonna get killed stop it you know that scene that is the scene of the movie yeah like that that scene in we'll get to it obviously but I would I taught that seen in class like so and that to me like not only is it the scene of the movie it is a perfect short film that yeah that sequence just taken out of context or anything else it is perfect and I agree with you it is so it manages to be we'll get to it but so stressful and so fun at the same time but right now Floyd is telling him about this uh the runner that got knocked over by a couple of grifters how some local people take of them nothing fancy got to discourage this kind of thing yala yala yala is just one of the great great little bits that we get in a movie you know yeah Redford heads up the stairs in this old tenement and you can see and again I love these kinds of moments he's just lost his three grand yeah and so the moment before he knocks on the door he takes a second to bring himself together because again it's like you said at the beginning every everyone is conning everybody all the time yep and this is his con now he has to to perform like he's happy and that he didn't lose all his money and you mirror this before Paul Newman walks justos this scene rather to before Paul Newman walks into have that card game he also takes that moment breathes it out and then goes in and stumbles in there and does his whole act you know but yeah that whole that's an actor's thing the moment before you walk on stage it's basically what they're showing you I literally is going to say the same thing because is in addition to like why I think con movies are so good for screenwriters con movies are all about actors yeah true these guys are all actors that is who they are and in in another circumstance but they might have become actors yeah you know right good point um so he gets welcomed in and this is Luther's family and they are super thrilled to see him I love the little dance that Robert Redford does you know and it's just and they it's OB it's so obvious that this is hooker's family yeah deep deep family and it was interesting so uh David sward as I said was listening to Classic Blues from the 30s when he wrote the script and that is why Luther and his family are black is because those are the voices he was listening to and again you know we talked about race and we're not going to get into race in this talking about this thing but like I love that it's just given that this is family there's just no he just they they love each other and that's it you know and think about the time of this movie 1973 right I mean the Civil Rights bill was just nine what no five years what was it 64 I guess nine years ago nine years before you know we were starting to see Sydney portier is coming in uh through the late 60s into the 70s being a name here so we're seeing this idea of having because I mean remember at the opening M uh was it mat no no it was the the Eerie kid playing the con who uses the n-word you know n lover you know he says that right in the opening few scenes of the film and then we see the fact that he is of course Very Much connected to and embraced and loved by this family I imagine Luther found hooker on the streets he was a young white kid whose family had abandoned him and I imagine Luther taught him a trade in order to be able to survive totally 100% very much a father figure in this situation which is why you understand why if you factor that in I think that's why hooker does all the things he does in the entire movie is because this was essentially his father figure maybe his only father you know I I I 100% think that's what it is and it's not just that it's like I mean his conversation with I think Alva is her name yeah the the wife and and and when we find out that oh Alva used to is a con artist yes and she ran the same con and they're discussing how fast you are getting the bundles in and out and how they did it and yeah and and and what I love I love there's so th this is an incidental scene in the sense that there's not critical story points that are happening here right but all the dialogue is so great because first we have that great conversation about alabina Conor artist but then we also have this thing that they're going to head off to church or like oh they're going to church isn't that interesting the con artist going to church but they're going to church to uh to play Bingo yeah which essentially is gambling in the it's not gambling like throwing down $3,000 on roulette but it's still gambling and they're talking about that and then I love too that they they're we were listening on the radio of them closing in on Machine Gun Kelly and Alva says well who you hat hey hooker can't help you Leroy you can't beat the house because they're on the side of the criminals there's so many little details in this scene that are super fun and I want to give a quick shout out to Pauline Meers who plays Alva for those you who've ever see my cousin Vinnie she is the lady who has to wear the glasses who init she's the one that like at the end they go you you do need glasses don't you ma'am she is the little young little older black lady who has to admit that she needed glasses but this is a woman who worked from the 1950s on uh in or 1940s on in in theater and sorry in film and television so she certainly had a very strong resume uh and that was her last role the my cousin Vinnie role was her on screen yeah um and so they had the family heads off to church and he goes over to see Luther and kid Erie who are sitting down playing some Domino does he look familiar to you he definitely looks familiar to me kid Jack kho that's the uh the accountant in uh in The Untouchables I'll talk I'll talk that's the guy at the end or not the end but the guy they uh get in the subway station there with the whole baby going down the steps he is the accountant that goes and tells everything Jack huo he was also in Serpico and in Midnight Run remember he's the guy who helps he is yes right uh is it who's is it Joey pants who's Joe pants yeah yeah yeah he's the guy helping Joey pants so yeah he's the I'll go get some donuts that's right that's right who's who's telling all to finina about the situation yeah so one thing that occurred to me this time that had never occurred to me before cuz he hands them out their shares yes and I was like oh when he lost his three grand he had their shares in his pocket yep and did not and I think and it's it went over my head every time I'd seen it until this time but I go like oh that's one more piece of the honor among Thieves is that he might be a criminal but he's an honor he would I don't think it would ever even have occurred to him to rip off Luther Luther and Keri right and I think also it's not written in the script but I think also black man walking around at that time with that much money that's asking to get killed by the police or a other or other white people discover it uh and what have you um and then and the clear the Eerie the Eerie kid is too nervous to be car so it has to be has be red it has to be Redford Yeah you're late where you been I had a couple of appointments sir how much did you lose and I love Redford's kind of Grimace and just kind of uh all of it in one goddamn night what are you spraying men around like that for you could have been Neil ah I checked the place first there weren't no dicks in there but you're a con man and you blew it like a pimp I think that's a great not the pimp distinction necessarily but like it's like the idea of someone who makes his living manipulating other people into foolishly losing their money yeah for him to foolishly lose his money is stupid you know he should be called out well and that's what I mean about the fatherly energy that's something a father would say to us why'd you do that stupid stuff come on no class grifter would have done it that's all you think my play is bad and there's a pause and man Robert ear Jones's smile when he says I think you're the best is great yeah particular as you said this is a father figure yeah you know yeah I wouldn't be getting out otherwise what the hell are you talking about I'm getting too old for this racket you hang on too long and you start embarrassing yourself so he's reti in yeah last day on the job and this is also where we start to hear about the big con that this is just small Time stuff and he thinks that hooker should be on the big con but you played the big con you told me yourself it was some dumb game for Mama's Boys and flakes hell I never played no big con so I love the introduction of the big con yeah the idea that because we we've never heard this term that's not a term that you know it's like oh there's the because we saw the con we understood what just happened yes and now we hear there's this thing called the big con it's like you know what it is I hadn't thought about until this moment what's that it's like playing it's like playing in the show yeah yeah this is the this is the Super Bowl or the Major League Baseball level of of con artists right now now I have a chance to step out when I'm ahead come on what would you do with yourself oh I have a brother down in KC runs a great Outlet I go HS with him it ain't too exciting I like that he says but it's mostly legal yeah you knew he was dead this is this is this is a kid going you know when I leave the wall I'm gonna take Peggy for a ride and get those hot dogs at Coney Island bang today it's my last day I'm retiring I get to hang up the badge yeah you're dead I want to work with you Luther I'm out Johnny by the way there are things that happen in this movie editorially yeah that are illegal for all editors working today okay which is all of these it's not just wipes but it's all these folds and Spins and squeezes and they all these things what happened is this was kind of really cool when the sting did it all these weird transitions right um particularly because they have sometimes those uh Saturday evening post Stills that we're moving off of and it's really neat those are cool and then when the very first computer video systems got created in the early 90s they all were buttons oh you can do a page turn or you can do a squeeze or a flip or a slide or a diagonal and every terrible wedding videographer in the world used these things constantly and then you got like the star dissolve and all these things until by the time that I got to film school it was like you are not allowed to touch any of those buttons because they were considered so damn cheesy put that down right now put it down it's the only thing to do knew he was holding you back yeah but we were partners War for Luther I still be hustling pinball down at gnell I don't need any more what I got that's weird that holding them back yeah yeah well I think what we're being told is that hooker is super talented Yes again he's like the young star in the small ball club that needs to go to the bigs you know yeah but doesn't want to go because he's afraid of making the change because there's comfort and security here exactly yeah um and then as they're chatting about all this and what's going to happen in the future this car comes flying out and they're is Charles dering who chases hooker down the alley and it's obvious a this is a cop and it's obvious that they that they know each other oh hi there Snider what's the matter things a little slowed on of the Bunko Department tonight huh and Snider already knows about this big score you tied into a loaded mark on 47th across of Maxis if he hadn't been a numbers runner for doy Lanigan it would have been perfect so now this is the first that hook not only is hooker finding out what we've already learned that who he stole money from but it's all over town because if Snider knows everybody knows now I figure you under the score was at least three G's I want two no matter what it was and he stands up and he goes all right and he reaches into his wallet and he pulls out a big stack of money and hands it to Snyder and I love that kid Erie is watching this because hooker told Luther I blew the three grand yeah and now he's pulling out three grand I thought you blew all your money I did stuff I gave him is counterfeit they'll spot at the first place he tries to spend it are you crazy giving him counterfeit money he just takes off out of the blue leaving the Eerie kid to Fall Run behind him yeah well and again so first of all this is an important plant that we're setting up that he shouldn't have given counterfeit money to this cop because this cop's goingon to be after him for the rest of the movie and then also because now he knows that lonigan is after him he knows Lanigan might also be after Luther yeah and he immediately runs into a store Yanks this woman out of pay phone boo I know so roughly this older lady yeah yeah and then he's the phone is ringing and there's no answer at Luther's runs out I love by the way that he yanked the woman out of the phone booth but he's already gone so she attacks kid Erie after he's gone they never attack the lead they always attack the character actor that's how it works Redford's just too beautiful to beat up that's what I'm saying so we get back to Luther's building and the moment we walk in through the door we know that something's wrong because there's this guy on the phone he's describing something he's giving an address and a location and we're going oh [ __ ] Y and the shots as he bursts into that apartment where we just were and the apartment was so happy and so joyful and now we're there and it's just obvious that someone's broken in and in particular the camera zooms over to that open window and the blowing curtains and we look down and we see Luther's body yeah and and it's and I think that's what explains his sudden turn and run is because and we don't see it right a close-up of his face and him saying Luther he just immediately starts running because he knows if they found me they're gonna find him and because I'm white and he's black they're going to do worse to him and he runs right to try and stop that from happening that's what I take from that you know no I'm 100% that's what it is and is there and screaming and it's so s and again the movie did such a good job making you feel like this was his family yeah you know and seeing this moment and of course he's the next one under threat and the kid kind of drags him away as the cops show up and he runs off climbing fences and then we cut to our next title card which says the setup and hooker appears at this merry gound which by the way this is shot at the Santa Monica pure oh yeah um and he sees this woman swe weeping on the stairs and there is Eileen Brennan yeah the great Eileen Brennan Private Benjamin come on people what what do you want from me this is a lifelong actress lot of notable roles including the last picture show a film we did recently Steve what a few weeks ago and of course a lot of you who love two years ago two years ago sorry two years that's I meant to say a few years ago not weeks ago um uh and also of course for those of you who love clue I I am not one of them but I know there's a lot of you 80s people who love clue she is Mrs peacock in that as well so um and popped up in Jeepers Creepers so this is a woman who has worked quite a lot but Private Benjamin is the role that kind of exploded Eileen Brennan as an actress and playing the sadistic drill sergeant to poor Goldie hans's private there uh in that movie I don't do you remember that movie Steve I mean is that one you watched when you were a kid and what have I haven't I haven't seen it in 20 years but I probably watched it 10 times back in the day was I'm sure was in the rotation you know with all those things for a guy named Henry gondorf you know him no you sure beat it and then he says which is what he should have said at the beginning Luther Coleman sent me are you hooking yeah why didn't you say so we walk through the space the location is fantastic yeah so good I mean the weirdness of a of a a carnival inside as a as a front for a brothel it's all so weird man we come into this room we hear snoring we look at the bed there's no one on the bed and then he finds Henry uh gondorf Paul Newman passed out under the bed and says the great Henry gondorf so how did Newman get P cast in this film so like I said this was the supporting role it was this heavyweight over the hill drunk guy that was going to help out the main character which is Johnny hooker yeah so when they did Butch and sundan George Roy Hill rented a house from Paul Newman in Beverly Hills so a few years later he calls up Newman and says hey is that house available again and Newman says yeah sure why he says oh I'm doing a picture with Redford and Doan goes oh anything in it for me and it had never occurred to George Ro Hill because this was the heavy set you know supporting character this wasn't a Paul Newman role and what he says is immediately dollar sign started rotating around in his head and he said yeah maybe there's a second part yeah so he sends him the script he reads the script and says I'm dead wrong for this part you know this character for someone who's way more long in the tooth than it has been and you know that's not me and Redford hears about this and they're all kind of together and and here's how Newman describes it is they were at some event and he's with George Ro Hill and Redford and Redford went up in the elevator and then the elevator went to the wrong floor that left or something that left George Roy Hill and Newman sitting on the platform waiting for the elevator and Hill says I think you're and Newman would not say what exploitive he used but let's say just like I think you're [ __ ] crazy if you don't do this film yeah and it was just the extra one minute of the elevator having to go away and come back and for George Roy Hill to insult him to make Newman go okay I'll do it yeah and Newman hadn't had since Sundance he had not had a good run yeah he had like yeah yeah it was like Judge Roy Bean and like there some other movies that didn't do very well yeah um and so he he kind of needed something and the pairing with Redford had gone so well in Butch and Sundance is like okay plus both he and Redford made a half million bucks each on the movie and Newman got a percentage of the movie I don't know if Redford got percentage of the movie yeah we're about the everyone right now is Raging about well not everyone but a lot of people are raging about Robert Downey Jr getting paid $100 million to come back to play Dr Doom in the MCU over a couple of films um but here is Robert Redford and Paul Newman making this much money uh and I think Brando had just made this much money himself so Brando had set the bar for the price and so Newman and Redford were able to negotiate for that separately cut to the shower pting down on Paul Newman turn it off it's sober turn it off will you I love how willing Paul Newman is to let himself be in this role you know I have to believe with Butch Cassidy in this movie again like he is very nervous about doing comedy he does not think he's a funny guy and doesn't work for comedies and George Roy told told him in Butch on Sunday it's like just play it straight the comedy will be around you just play it straight right and this and I think there's a fearlessness with him when it comes to this ComEd this kind of Comedy stuff or comic beats and I think it's because he's not sure that he can do it or he's not fully confident that he can do it so he's willing to like put himself in certain positions in order to uh accentuate the comedy or underline the comedy so it works that he's just sitting there and calmly getting water splash on because we've seen shower hit number of people in movies steveen it's always the big reaction oh oh you know that kind of stuff and he's so calm about it all uh as a as um uh Johnny is looking at him and and dissecting him already and thinking he's coming up short in his mind you know well since you since you brought I was going to bring this up later but I think this is a perfect time of talking about going for the comedy and that so this is something that Paul Newman said about George Roy Hill is that he said he was very autocratic he had a military background and what he said goes but yeah he was totally willing to watch any crazy idea that the actors had oh and here's what Newman said and I love this and I think you will too about acting he says sometimes you need to play the totally outrageous thing and it was wrong and it would be wrong and completely wrong but that outrageous Choice leads you in the complete opposite direction which is actually the right choice yeah you said you got to you got to be able to go for it sounds about right to me yeah and that it sounds like is that George Roy Hill totally let them really go for it yeah but then once they decided what was the right choice then that was the right choice and he and that and to me that's what directing is is like I want to give my actors tons and tons of freedom in the end the Bucs got to stop with the director at a certain point right you want me to walk across the stage and die in the middle of the stage well the people left of the house can't see you they can't see you I'm I'm not gonna you know what not this told story yeah exactly ladies and gentlemen that was a tootsie reference yes it was sorry glad to meet you kid you're a real horse's ass Luther said I could learn something from you I already know how to drink what's so crazy and this is this is what I mean by this is what acting is yeah think about Butch and Sundance right relationship it was all exactly right they understood each other perfectly you knew exactly who these people were in relationship to each other and this is a completely different relationship totally different yeah if you were to put it in the world world of Butch and Sundance say say Butch had survived which a lot of people think he did um this is like the sundance's kid coming up to try to learn from him as he's the older Grizzle veteran you know that's the energy that's going on sorry about loser he's the best street worker I ever saw he had you down as a big timer what happened I cond the senator from Florida on a stock deal little a lob here thought he was going to take over General Electric some shantui woke him though and he put the feds on me what's great about this is it a explains why is gondorf living at a brothel slmg gound and a drunk who's under his bed it explains that yeah but it's also a plant because this is what we're going to use for the FBI guys later on is that gondorf is on the run from something that happened in Florida oh yeah you know exactly that's smart smart screenwriting I love Redford's response you mean you blew it Luther didn't tell me he had a big mouth you didn't tell me you was a screw up either like this is not p in Sundance yeah and then this is another key question yeah Lan after you too I don't know I ain't seen anybody you never do kid it's interesting by the way that in both movies he calls him kid yeah that's true right but it doesn't mean the same thing yeah and it's also this plant of how much is hooker sharing with gondorf about how much trouble he is in is the secret sauce of the whole movie that's what's that's that idea that niggling little doubt that we're going to build over time is what elevates this from a really good Caper movie into one of the great movies yeah agree I think agreed you know in a way this is like this is what makes it not Oceans 11 I I and love Oceans 11 but Oceans 11 doesn't have that extra kind of layer I think of this that this has in terms of the trust yeah it's it's fun and it's flashy exactly but it doesn't have the and I think the third one is the only one that really carries a little weight cuz Pacino is a is a scary antagonist and Elliot gold almost dies from a heart attack in the opening right scenes of that movie so there are stakes in that movie the first one is much more Flash and style and we're cool and we're trying to get Julia Rob back you know yep back at the merry-go round Henry is now in his overalls would you mind opening the round a little early today we got some business coming in before ours sure and check the main gearing will you man of war started rattling yesterday and threw a kid on its head and I love it's you mentioned that this is a brothel but it's all handled so subtly like we never like it you kind of go like what business what is this going on here it's just really in the background that's why you cast someone like Eileen Brennan who can play it very chill but you know it's still just kind of lurking there under the surface listen gondorf am I going to learn to play the big con or not what's your hurry I want to play for Lan do you know anything about the guy yeah croak Luther anything else I got to know I think Redford does a great job playing the impetuous angry impatient kid yeah it's a change from well no actually it isn't because at the end of bush Cassidy and Sundance or the latter half of the movie he becomes the angry impetuous frustrated kid right it's Butch who has to talk him down but talking him down from a place of Love whereas here in the film because they've just barely met each other he's T he's trying to guide him through this whole situation from a place of like look I'm the oldest guy in the room I'm the most experienced guy in the room I'm trying to guide you through this shut up and listen that kind it's a different energy there right well and I think he's also trying to gauge him he's going like well who is this guy yeah what's going on we ask about you know who is he runs a numbers record on the South Side he owns a packing house a few Banks yeah and half the politicians in New York and Chicago fixing this world going to cool him out if he blows on you I'll get him anyway why cuz I don't know enough about killan to kill him it's a great line from Redford and this is where we get into this idea of there's this special breed of people that are the big con people yeah can't do it alone you know takes a mob of guys like you and enough money to make them look good I know plenty of guys it's not like playing wios in the street you can't outr run played for no w got to keep his con even after you take his money he can't know you took him you're scared of him right down to my socks Buster and then there's this look and this only happens with actors that have just great chemistry together yeah cuz Redford looks at him and goes you're going to go for him and that slow smile on Paul Newman's face this is why it's not some supporting actor yeah cuz only Newman can do that just don't want a hotthead looking to get even coming back halfway through saying it ain't enough cuz it's all we're going to get people are inspired by the by the great Challenge and clearly he's been waiting right just like the Joker's face wakes up in that Asylum when Bruce returns and Dark Knight Returns that's basically what you're witnessing here here's a question from Maria Torres one of our Advisory board members who says in their first outing together as you both discussed Newman and Redford were pretty much equal footing here in the Sting the balance seems to have tilted a little more in making Redford's hooker the main focus hooker and gondorf have to earn each other's trust in a way we never experienced for Butch and Sundance I personally love this thing just a little bit more than Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid but your discussion about balance maybe to start to wonder how you feel about this slight waiting of the story towards Redford's character he is I put it in professional wrestling terms uh because it all connects whether you like it to or not it all connects this is the older wrestler putting over the younger wrestler who is about to come in into his Prime and that's what this is Redford I mean sorry Newman doesn't show up until 26 minutes into the movie and the rest of the time he is guiding the young kid through well young kid relative through this next level of status and in essence Paul Newman as the older actor is making way for the younger Robert Redford to now step into his Prime in the 1970s and be the big thing you know Robert Shaw said that and George Roy Hill said this too like traveling with these two or going to the locations with these two guys was like traveling with the Beatles like women were showing up all the time to scream for them Robert Shaw said it was frustrating at times uh because the women would line up at these location shoots and would scream for Robert and Paul and then Robert really started to become the person they screamed at for the most and so you see that here so to me I that's what I like in it too is that this is Paul Newman who want who was on a as you said Steve on a bad run it's a POS here's a possibility to work with a guy who maybe directed his last greatest film which is buch Cassidy and his buddy who he who he delivered a great performance with and so let's go recapture a little bit of the magic and uh I'll happily play the smaller role and the less screen time role but the role that also carries a lot of weight in the scenes that he's in guiding the young kid to where he needs to go so to me that's the way I look at it so in there's this question that gets asked a lot in script development which is who is the story about and there's this theory in Hollywood movies that in general a movie is about one person's Journey right and there are all sorts of movies where that's not true and that's why I tend to always push back against these kinds of rules but it's frequently a good question to ask because sometimes you're a little bit lost when you're writing or developing a project and you got to go like well who is the story about there is no question the sting is about Robert Redford's character in terms of Hol would structure is that beginning middle and end he has a complete Journey it's he the motivation is his desire for revenge for Luther his uh evolution is from a person who is the young up incomer who's Rough Around the Edges who learns how to run the big con and at the end is you know achieve that's Classic Hollywood structure and so in that sense Redford is the star and Newman is the supporting actor yeah but and maybe this comes from and my guess is you were kind of the same way is I did theater all through my childhood I only once did I ever play the lead in anything yeah I was always the person who showed up for 10 minutes and did the funny scene I was always the uncle I was always the heavy I was always and to me uh it's not that I would never want to play a lead but supporting actors are often the most fun yeah you know what I mean and I think Paul Newman is having a blast playing this part sure he is and he is completely 100% captivated and realized every moment he's on screen and so I just kind of I don't think about this balance you know like thing that much it's like if I you know if you get a gig and you show up for a week and it's a lot of fun that's great and if you have this great small part that's great like I but I'm never a movie star type so I you know I get it you know I don't have that kind of thing but for me it's like yeah it is not even and it is fantastic that's how I yeah and and as we said earlier and we said in through Butch casting and Sundance these are actors these two guys they're not movie stars they're actors they became movie stars but they're actors at their heart and that's Newman was and the films he chooses to do after Butch Cassie and Sundance Kid are an actor's choice of films to do they're not the standard glossy theatrical feature lead it is much more incisive roles that he's exploring because he's driven by that Compass he has that compass that Compass of his Points North toward challenging roles to will lead him to the movie we're going to do later in a few weeks here or in a couple weeks the verdict that that is a role that a lot of actors would have turned down at that time and probably did I haven't done the research yet on that but like he is such a perfect choice for that role as this aging ambulance chaser with one last shot at glory it's great and so you know this is the thing that I love about Paul Newman um and I think a lot of actors love about Paul Newman who who love acting who understand the business of acting or or they understand the craft of acting yeah Paul I I have a totally unformed thought sure but I want to throw it out let's do it it occurs to me that part of what makes a movie star a movie star is on some level a certain lack of vulnerability like there is they are bigger than life you know like they you know Arnold being the obvious example but like John Wayne wasn't a movie star because he was vulnerable in the Searchers he shows his vulnerability and that is shocking and that whereas the actor the the quote unquote like fine actor they make their money on their vulnerability like dairo is all about his vulnerability yeah and it's interesting to me because I just suddenly went oh in the verdict that's where Newman Embraces his vulnerability fully you know yeah we but we had seen you know shade as you said it's an unformed thought so we'd seen shades of it in Cool Hand Luke yep and in the Hustler I actually watched that over the weekend again Cool Hand Luke on on Pluto and yes uh the Hustler Steve very well pointed out um uh what's a sweet bird of Youth with Patricia Neil HUD has so he's always been drawn to these characters that have these flaws and vulnerabilities to them whether he leans into them depends on the material but that's always been something that Paul Newman has been attracted to even here Steve he's a guy who is who flew too close to the Sun and now is trying to get back on top again so he's got his own vulnerabilities the fact that he has to take a moment to breathe before he walks in and does his role uh at the card game speaks volumes to the fact that he is not 100% confident that his Mojo can still work you know right right so uh we've decided we're going to go after them and we have this great music and here's just a little directing tip because all I'm sure that was in the script was hooker gets gussied up he gets the manicure he gets the new suit he gets all that stuff that's that's what has to happen but what happens in the scene is that you see Redford resist the manicure yeah and then embrace the manicure and then sort of smile flirtingly at the people working on him and of course Redford is so goodlook and like it's amazing how good he looks at the end of the scene but like that is the difference between a passable movie and a good movie is yeah you do have to get out that he he gets the nice outfit of the manicure and the haircut but what's but making that scene exciting is what Redford does in that chair yeah Agreed 100% agree he gets uh a key to the room and for the first time we see Ray Walston uh who's one of my favorite actors and Harold Gould playing kid twist dressed in the most ridiculously elegant uh outfits and they do the classic The Sting nose flick yeah which all of us were doing forever after this movie came out of course Ray Walston Mr Hand from Fast Times ridg M high but also for those you who are really older than us My Favorite Martian uh and what have you so a fantastic character actor and I'd say this Harold Gould is a guy I loved every time I saw him pop up and stuff I thought for years that he was Elliot G's older brother uh or Uncle possibly but no no connection no relation to them but I'll tell you one bit of trivia with Harold Gould he was the original Mr Cunningham and oh really turned down the role to go do a play and it was Tom Bosley who got hired to replace him but he was the original Mr Cunningham he was going to be in Happy Days with Mary and Ross so that is it's an interesting little tidbit for him but both of them there are so many great Master actors throughout this entire film yeah who are character actors and certainly um Harold G is one of them Steve I I love the moment where uh we walk in on a bank teller who just sees Newman for a second it's like all right I'm closing up my thing I'm out that's all we're done time to go y'all yeah Redford leaves his room he puts a little piece of paper in the door that's going to come up later uh and we're back with our guys in this meeting and we're starting to hear some of the exposition about lonigan and basically they run down all of his business and they're looking for somewhere that they can take advantage of and it's really tough to find the most of of the stock is traded but my guess is he's just trying to build himself a respectable image he came out of five points but he's been telling everybody he was born in Forest Hills so what does Five Points make you think of uh gangs in New York yeah unfortunately yeah so if lonigan is 60 and this is 1936 then he was born in 1876 10 years after the events of Gangs of New York yeah which is kind of crazy to think about you know yeah so his his dad could be Leonardo DiCaprio right that's johy right it's the Irish yeah that's his that's his uh timeline we also hear the name of his favorite assassins which is Riley and Cole which we know because we already heard their names those are the people that are going after Redford yeah and we show hooker the pictures of the guys that are after him right and what you see is there's a rack Focus to Paul Newman watching Redford as he looks at the pictures and all of these things are these little tiny details of can gondorf trust Johnny hooker you see anything kid you let us know if they put you on the spot we got to fold the con so again this is like the details of like therefore because he says we're going to fold the con if anyone's coming after you Johnny hooker can't tell him that anyone's coming after him because that would interfere with his revenge on Luther yeah and they're subtle but all these little motivations are in there little plants yeah and then then we're out at the bar with Billy and income Snider looking for a guy on the L from a counterfeiting rap I thought he might have come in here don't think so I know everyone in the place and I always bounce the Lamers all right if I look around in here no but you're welcome to a free beer before you go she hands him a beer and he pours the beer out right on his hand on her hand which was a mistake yep yeah she played it off so well yeah she's such she's so good yeah I don't know what to do with this guy Henry he's an Irishman who doesn't drink doesn't smoke and doesn't Chase names who that crap he won't touch him the cuper at Gilman says he never plays anything he can't win so they're trying to find a con that that works for this guy yeah do do he do anything where he's not alone just poker and he cheats and as soon as he says he cheats the smile goes around the room and this is their way in yeah back with SNY he's about to look into the rooms but I wouldn't go in there if I were you what are you going to do call the cops I don't have to you'll be busting in on the chief of police just up the hall and that's it for Snider he's gone Billy walks into the meeting with the beers they're still continuing to talk about uh how they're going to con lonigan and as they're talking about this and it like all good movies were doing multiple things at once because Billy Whispers in gondor's ear and we know that she's telling him about Snider which we know Snider is off after Johnny hooker we know that that's what's going on and now is when they come up with the plan who use a wire hav't known a poker player yet didn't want to beat the pony the wire has been out of day for 10 years that's why he won't know it I'm not sure I know it which I love is that normally you would explain it like if someone said hey I don't know what the plan is they' go oh well the plan is that we do this thing where we have the the horse races and blah blah blah blah but they're not going to tell us because we don't need to know we want to keep the audience in the dark two of us working the inside any objections to Hooker as second man and everyone's fine with that and Redford has this great smile that he's being not only embraced into the group of the big con but also going to be the partner the second man yeah oh by the way have you guys been passing bad money lately Robert Redford's reaction yeah is the perfect what huh did someone do that it's perfect who me and again these are the little tiny seeds of distrust that we're creating and they're small and after this moment of distrust once again we get that great music we get one of these title cards that says the hook and with each one of these title cards there's a little bit of visual information in this case it's the image of a train where one of the most exciting sequences in the film is going to happen and and just speaking of the music one of the interesting things that Marin hamlish said is that he spent a lot of time trying to figure out what piano to play this on oh is that he wanted to get a very specific sound that wasn't the fully rounded beautiful perfect sound of the giant grand piano he wanted something that had that tone of another era that had the softness of the keys and I just I love that attention to detail because the attention to detail is where great films are made well that's where a great musician is essential to have in moments like this because they know you as a filmmaker Steve I'm sure you've had conversations with composers like you want to you explain to them what the film is and then they will come up with the idea of what the sound may be you both agree on the sound and then what instruments are going to be best to bring that sound to life so yeah that's great to hear that he was even that meticulous Marvin was in what piano to use for this I'll tell you one of the things that I love and it's gonna sound counterintuitive but I really love being told that I'm wrong I really do and it's well because I mean obviously I don't like being wrong I don't like necessarily people arguing with me but when I'm working with a professional whose skill level is Way Beyond me in a certain area yeah I have that's why they're there is to so an example so uh Jimmy LaVine James elvine who is my composer on the assistant and a whole bunch of other stuff I did I've known him for 25 years um he he worked for Han Zimmer and a great great composer yeah I remember bringing into him here's the piece of music because I I always tempcore things and i' say Here's a piece of music for it was for the assistants and it was a um it was from run l run and run run great great soundtrack super useful and he looked at me and he said I completely understand why you've chosen this piece of music and this is completely wrong and I said why he said well what you have right is the tempo is right oh and the and even sort of the tone is right but it's techno and this shouldn't be techno it should be Jazz and here's why and then he played me something that was exactly the same tempo of what I'd picked right except it was completely different and I listened to it I went you are completely right I didn't know why I did I you know like I knew enough to pick a good Tempo but I didn't know enough that's why you have an expert yeah you know exactly to tell you you're wrong yeah yeah um so we we're in this alley we walked down these steps and we're hearing some dialogue about this location and we watch uh Harold Gould kid twist who I love in every scene in this movie walk in and he's looking at this space that's kind of a beat up old space trying to see if this is going to work it's big enough and it's off the street I don't know kind of short notice uh and one of the people they're talking to who's going to provide apparently all the supplies they need is this African-American gentleman with a fantastic Voice who just he seems like a natural character to me yeah absolutely that's Avon long uh who is playing the character of Benny and Avon long fantastic um song and dance man he danced in The Cotton Club in New York in 1934 uh remember that Francis Ford Copa film that kind of touched on that with Richard G and G Hines Lena horn the great Lena horn credits this man with bringing her out of the chorus line to a featured spot wow imagine that Lena Horn uh he was also nominated for the 1973 Tony Ward is Best Supporting or featured actor for the musical don't play us cheap uh so an interesting gentleman who lived through some of the formative years of a lot of black entertainers who were of course had to deal with a lot of stuff including racism just to make a name so to see him pop up here in the sting I think is is a fun part of this whole um uh movie for sure when you get actors like this to give that kind of sense that they were around at that time or or performed during that time so they give that energy and that authenticity to the delivery of their of their lines there Steve you know one of the things I think about a lot is the distance between the famous person and the person who was right there yeah that was maybe just as talented maybe just as interesting and for whatever reason they didn't go to that next level I mean this guy gave Lena horn her start you know I mean this is the real dude guy you know exactly and yet his name is pretty much lost to history except for the annals of the ciles you know and one last uh tidbit he is in trading places he is one of the um Butlers for yes he is yeah that's him holy [ __ ] it's is he I think he's the one where they they give him like a dollar yes you know yes and he's like oh I'll I'll take myself to a movie by myself I at some point Trading Places we have to right I love Trading Places I haven't seen it a long time I love it um and then we start negotiating not only do we want to rent this space but but uh kid twist is asking if there's a room with a view of this place from across the way and this guy says when I rents by the month 250 for the tour last time I expect to see you down here never heard of the place and then we go through all the list of things that they need and Benny is laying out everything apparently this guy can get you anything you need and of course this is talking to the set warehouse and the prop house when you're putting on a play I mean that's exactly what you do 100% build a set yeah and we he's saying the rates which seem kind of steep and at the very end he we we ask vny you just give us what you can we'll send a truck down now how do you want to work this flat rate of percentage who's the mark do Onan there's this look and then he says flat rate just in case you guys don't live basically well you know this is I think how it used to be back then is that or probably up until very recently and and maybe there are still places that a guy a person comes in uh and looks at your office and you tell them what he what you need and then that person goes and gets it out of their warehouse because they have that thing but I remember being numerous uh uh businesses through my years where uh we walk into a completely empty room or or area and you see them talking with the person who's going to bring in the desk and bring the computers and what day to expect expect this stuff so yeah it's by the way one of the ways to tell the difference between the people who've been around a lot of these businesses and the people who just got startup money is whether or not you buy new furniture oh yes the people with the big startup money they're like yeah we'll get all the new per Miller chairs and the fancy desks we'll spend it and the other just like what company just went out of business that's where I'm going to get my stuff exactly uh we were at the train station and while most of the film was shot in Los Angeles and a lot on the universal Backlot this is actually Union Station in Chicago oh nice and we see Doyle lonigan come in and he walks by Redford and Newman her watching him he's not as tough as he thinks neither are we which is great oh and also Steve if you notice Robert Shaw is limping as he walks by uh Redford and Newman in this scene and that is actually his limp like he injured his knee and Incorporated the limp into the performance according to one of the great books that I read as a young guy exploring Hollywood you'll never eat lunch in this town again by the producer Julia Phillips she said that Shaw split all the ligaments in his knee after slipping on a wet handball court at the Beverly Hills Hotel a week before filming started he had to wear a leg brace during production which was kept hidden under his trousers his 1930 style trousers the whole time that he was shooting this film so that's an authentic limp from Robert Shaw as he's going by that's not some character choice you know can can I add one more detail to your story sure so we're in the midst of rehearsal when this happens and Robert shock walks limps into rehearsal goes to George Roy Hill and says I'm so very very sorry of course you'll have to recast me you know and I and I completely understand I messed up I'm really really sorry right and George Roy Hill looks at him and he goes walk over to the other side of the room and then he says he he does and he goes okay walk back to me and Robert Shaw limps back towards George Roy Hill who watches him and he goes use it use it yeah and the thing is that's but so I I love every I mean I don't love the element of the story where Robert Shaw got hurt but I love the element where he was willing to give up the part yeah and that George Roy Hill looked at him and went no this is something I've talked about directing and and been thinking about forever is the idea of I have the movie Perfectly imagined in my head yeah and as opposed to shit's gonna happen the shark's not going to work with jaws Brando's gonna show up 40 pounds overweight and then you go and then you reimagine the movie yeah and that the movie that gets reimagined based on this weird thing that happened is better lonigan's limp is huge it's amazing in the movie yeah I have a theory that the great creatives are people who when they leave the house don't want to go back to the house because they forgot something they're the people who okay explain this Theory I've had this theory for a while and I think it it speaks volumes to being able to troubleshoot whatever situation that you're in and want to go forward and finish the job I think the great directors don't want to delay don't want to take no for an answer don't want to wait around for something to be available they want to go forward once they start the process they want to go forward and complete the task before heading back uh at to the end of the film right and so for me that's what I think I think there are certain people who are built that when they leave the house and they get far enough away from the house that it would be an actual chore to go back and get the thing they forgot they don't go back and get it and they stay on thead and just kind of troubleshoot the situation as best they can and to accomplish the goals that they set out to accomplish that day now if they're supposed to return somebody to the Amazon UPS Store that's a different conversation but I think I think there are people who are built this way that once they leave the house they hate to double back and go back to the house and grab whatever they forgot because they took them all that energy just to leave the house so I feel that way about great creatives I I love this Theory I really do and well in particular because it it kind of describes me in some ways of like I I move on you know like I'm just like you know I don't I I don't spend a lot of time crying over spilled milk I'm spend a lot I'm like I want I it's not that I'm not a perfectionist in lots of ways obviously you've witnessed that sometimes to your irritation I'm sure but I'm not a perfectionist in the sense of well it's just like the story I just told about music yeah of my perfect vision has to be realized yeah that's not how it's like we're in the [ __ ] what can we make out of this you know like let's and then and let's bust our ass and do it not worry about all the other stuff you know well and I think Robert Shaw is a man's man George Roy hill was a man's man and not to get into any kind of sexist toxic masculine or anything but man's men and so he's like can you walk can you fine use it we'll make it work it's not a big deal let's go you know yeah um well and it also goes to I didn't hire you for your legs you know yeah right exactly like I hired you for your acting and it could add a little element of danger because then it lets the audience go like when did he get that injury those kinds of things come into your mind as you watch that yeah strangely enough in in the hands of Robert Shaw I think his limp makes him more powerful and scarier I agree yeah I agree he's like a wounded animal in the corner yeah he more dangerous yeah so what's about to happen in this film is that we're going to cut back and forth between a bunch of the setup for the big con and setting up the space getting all the people all that organization and most of that's going to be with kid twist with the con of Lan and the poker game with Redford and Newman and this is going to cut back and forth but for the sake of the podcast I think we're g to actually handle them separately because I think it'll be fun to see that poker game as a whole yeah and so let's talk about the setup first and then we're going to go back on the train and we're going to talk about that poker game okay okay so we see this bar and in comes kid twist looking elegant as always and the charisma coming off of Harold Gould as he greets everyone in this bar is just amazing yeah and he walks into the office and obviously everyone knows him here and the first thing they talk about is Luther Coleman and apparently it just seems like everybody knew Luther and everyone loved this guy yeah some of the boys were passing the half Alin the kids I never seen the guys so worked up well don't worry about it dookie we're going to send a little calling card of our own gondorf is setting up a wire store on the North side I'm going to need a 20-man boost right away and I love I love what they're implying which is that there's this like a union of Underworld conmen you know what I mean yeah that everybody I love some of the words they use in this show where it's like the boy these boys got to be quill now I've never heard the term quill anywhere else used but apparently according to David S wward this is a real you know word that he used forus people being excellent and we say give me the sheet so not only is there a union of conmen right but they have a list of the people with all their skills and stuff yeah to use for certain jobs yeah why not you have to do there's no computer database Steve it has to be all on the list I guess so yeah and so they go out to get the sheet and justce has happened we're out in the bar and we see uh the entrance and we just see some legs come in and as soon as you see the legs you know that it's Charles dery this is fantastic film making right George Roy Hill when he shoots kid twist coming in when he shoots kid twist it's from the side and we see him full body as he comes in right and that's Smokey and he's working his way through and by the way kid twist if I think this guy is a dangerous dude but he's he's a very nice guy and everybody loves him right the way he works that room walking through everybody a guy coming in at a top hat with a silver top on his Cane and the trench coat normally would get his ass kicked in Chicago I think in the 1930s in this yeah clearly kid twist is a guy who has a reputation for either getting stuff done or taking care of business himself if people mess with him right so the way that he work he glad hands that entire bar you can tell there's a real level of respect for this guy when he comes through the door the fact that George Roy Hill shoots um Charles dering where we don't even see his face and it's from the other side it's and it's a much more ominous entrance I think it's these little subconscious things that great filmmakers do to put you in the frame of mind before you even see the character that's about to kind of intim try to intimidate people in the bar so it's really smart he keeps us away from kid twist and he keeps Us close up on the violence of Charles Durning I got such a good point and I really do think this movie and and but and Butch casting the S kid you can just study for where the camera is you know where's the camera what lens are we on it's always a choice it's never like I am not a great camera person and I'm my first instinct is straight on Master shot over the shoulder over the shoulder a couple of close-ups and a few inserts and I cover the scene because I think like an editor yeah yeah and so then I get all my footage and I can edit together however I want but that's not what great film making is really and and and you can really see it in this um the other thing which I hadn't thought about until you just said it about kid twist my guess is it it is true that that Johnny hooker is the second man in this with gondorf he is the number two sure except not only is kid twist really the number two but in fact if if Henry gondorf wasn't here he could be Henry G you know I think he's that good yeah oh 100% he there's no way this goes off without him there's no way that he's the most essential part of the crew this side of Redford and Newman 100% yeah they look through I love that they have the little window that they can slide open to look through at Snider as he comes in and they recognize him as a detective and who does he walk right up to but kid Eerie who is doing his best to hide and not doing a very good job he you see that friend of yours lately no no he uh packed it in and rolled into detective scope and the of course the whole bar loves that they love that he's mocking Snyder and everybody laughs and then Snyder kind of nicely Pats kid eerie and then slams into the table breaking his nose you see him you tell him he better pay up before I get to him charning is a low-key great villain totally right cuz he's he's not big like Brian Dene but he's got a size and ferocity to him you know and so when he gets to play these harder Edge characters it's really chilling un and it's unsettling and he does it so well you know I mean honestly and it's not just because they're both kind of similar builds but him and Ned batty have the range it's the range that impresses me because Ned batty can be in Deliverance Network and Superman yeah and Charles dering can be in this and be in which you referenced in earlier in this episode of in Tootsie I mean like you compare his character in Tootsie to Snyder they're the opposite you know completely opposite or a Dog Day Afternoon where he is a a put a put out policeman trying to negotiate this stuff and trying to do the best to save everybody in the situation yeah yeah yeah great actor I love by the way that as they this just makes me happy as just a list of great names because they start talking about all the con artists available and they say let's say horseface Lee slim Miller suitcase Murphy and the big Alabama is in from new or New Orleans cryan Jonesy and the Boon kid from Denver Duke Duffy Burke and Limehouse chappie from New York I have to believe that scorsi did an homage to this in Good Fellas sure right when they're going through the bar and he's the voiceover of all the different names Jimmy T times or whatever like I think there's a little bit you can catch little homages um that certain great filmmakers make to the great films that they've seen or the in formidable times you if this thing blows up remember I can't tell you no good downtown kind of is federal dookie if this thing blows up the feds will be the least of our problems hey everybody's involved man everybody's involved well and everything is everything is setting things up you know yeah yeah 100% and now it's later on and we're in the space and they're all these guys waiting in line who are the conmen who are essentially looking for a job and our first one who comes in is curlyy Jackson yeah that's p played by Tom spratley if you if you Eagle Eye viewer of him in Ferris Beer's day off he's the men's room attendant uh when FIS God cleaning himself but he was also in Sudden Impact and The Hitcher uh uh protocol which of course with the great e Brenan Max Dugan returns and the Man with Two Brains so a guy who didn't do a lot but certainly popped up in a lot lot of these notable films throughout his career and his last appearance on anything was in Highway to Heaven for those you remember that show in 1987 and here's another example of how great screenwriting Works which is that we've said gondorf has said and then kid twist has implied that we need top top con artists who really know their way around the big con to work on this job and we also want to include kid Erie and we really want to show that he isn't that that he is not that EXP low experience and so well how so we've said this but how are we going to show it and so we have this character come in ker who is obviously super experienced and knows how to do the big con I can share Mark board anything you want I don't run with riff ra and I only drink on a weekend me specialty is an English woman and so it's obvious that this guy has done this many many many times before yeah and so he's an instant hire and I love to and this is what makes me think about actors is he says you know okay we'll go out and pick out a nice Tweed suit and he and he says that's all right I've got all my own stuff yeah I love that moment when he does has the suitcase yeah and you know in his suitcase is it's like an actor he's got his makeup he's got all the things that he needs yeah if you get a gig yeah and in contrast the next person that comes into the office is kid eie and he comes in he's hiding his nose that just got broken by Snider you uh played for any particular mobs no you ever play The Wire before Erie no and he's obviously embarrassed and he says I never played no big con before but uh Luther Coleman was a friend of mine and I thought maybe there'd be something I could do and I love the vulnerability that he just he's just putting it out there he's like look I I know I'm not used to you but I want to help you know yeah you get that nose in dup drose tonight he takes away his hand cuz he know know it was stupid to hide it in the first place yeah and then twist and man this line is a cliche but I love it and maybe this is where the cliche comes from because because twist says you got marxy Erie get yourself a suit so this is a question I have uh from one of our patrons uh at the Roa say and he this question where is why is Kitt Erie kind of on the fringes of all of this why is he not in conversation uh with Redford about all of this is this all a setup like why at this point are you thinking like why isn't Johnny hooker helping him out they were walking together when he ran off to go check on Luther Luther's clearly part they were all in on this opening uh uh con so why wouldn't Johnny hooker be talking to kadiri about this whole situation why does he have to Lobby to be part of the con it seems odd doesn't it well uh Patron at the Roa says I I'm gonna give you two answers yeah and the answer the first answer which is the most important is that Robert Redford is a movie star and this guy is not excuse me that's my first answer but my second answer is I think there's an implication yeah it's it's there's a status thing going on and it seems very clear that everybody understands their status yeah which is that Johnny hooker is the AA parent The Golden Boy the upand cominging con artist everybody recognized it particularly Luther Fair Point and kidi is is a working guy yeah you know and knows it you know like he he knows he could never be a b he could never be a Henry gondorf he could never be a Luther he could never be a Johnny hooker right he can be the guy that plays the guy with the knife and then runs away that's what he could do okay that's my feeling but let me ask this so uh John we got this question from our Patron at the Roa says what what what do you think of what do you think the reason for this is where does he get the money to patronize his show for God sake that's great point no I I find it odd because there's the the film never explains it to you and so um when we're I mean they're splitting this thing three ways so that it makes me think that this guy was a hire for the con at the opening of the film except that there's a familiarity with him right when they walk together when they're doing all there's a familiarity between him and hooker so it seems odd to me that he would have to kind of Lobby to try to be a part of this Con when Luther and hooker knows this was just important to him as it was to Hooker so it just seems like an odd thing to all of a sudden push him to the side and have him be a part of this situation in I mean because he gets the worst of everything right he gets beat up by Robert Redford in the opening con uh then he has to experience the death of Luther then he gets beat up uh by Charles Ding and now he's having a beg for a job here to be part of this Con so I think think when the guy when U kit twist tells him you got Moxy that's kind of a a good thing for us as the audience because we kind of like this guy yeah and it's a shame that he's having to endure so much uh in such a quick amount of time in this film well and in his way and again this is why this is a good in in an average screenplay the or even a good screenplay the main characters and Main supporting characters they get taken care of yes and the small characters well we don't really follow their arcs that well but Kitty has a complete Arc you know yes yes he has his own journey to go on and that thing that you would always say to actors of like no this is Ker's movie you know this is your story he has a total story that works so this is what's happening while Johnny hooker and gondorf are on the train we kid twist is getting this whole thing set up behind the scenes but all of is all of it is dependent of the con that happens on the train and I think this Con is remarkable for so many reasons and one of them is that part of it is that they need to con lonigan out of the money because that's get be the money that funds the con to con lonigan that's the first step is we're actually just trying to get the money yep but that's not all we're trying to do because we also want because it's all about motivation is that we also want lonigan to end up hating Henry gondorf or who he thinks of as Shaw yeah um and then we also need to set up a way where lonigan is aligned with hooker's character who he knows as Kelly in order to make this big con work and so it's not just we're trying to get money there's multiple things that we're trying to achieve in the course of this sequence on the train yeah yeah um so uh we're on the train we're in gondor's compartment we're with the conductor he here's a friendly poker game in this train you know anything about it oh little sir this is what they made fun of in the naked gunun movies of the bribe yeah you get me in that game well I don't know there's usually a waiting list gives him some money going get you first alternate sir hands it more money see what I can do that's the way it works yep so the conductor Steve is played by Larry D man who is a notable character actor he was in In the Heat of the Night playing Watkins um but I think one of the things that I was surprised to discover about this guy is he is the voice of Yukon Cornelius and the abominable snow monster in Rudolph The Rednosed Reindeer so wow I couldn't believe that it was the same guy he had quite a career doing voiceover work and on camera work uh and so he's a guy that was popped up in a lot of these TV shows but then would show up in occasional things like that so just really interesting uh cat on so many levels as an actor and performer clearly one of those character actors you go to and a lot of people you know when you need someone of of his experience to be a part of it and a lot of people uh compare him I can't remember the name of the actor who is in like Meet John Doe and uh and Mr Smith Goes to Washington the the bigger like villain guy who has this kind of voice kind of guy voice we can't allow him to do that you know this uh he has that kind of energy so I'm not surprised that he worked yeah Sydney Green Street that's it Sydney Green Street and other character actors like that he was he was like that in that approach to things so I like that it's funny that you said that because you remember I said that um the idea of that came from Frank Kaa for me of casting voices and faces as your supporting characters and obviously you know George Roy Hill learned that lesson oh totally yeah so it's a little bit later and uh JJ Ray Rolston has come into gondor's room and is giving a report and the key to the report is he usually plays with a talo fan or a talo circle I got you one of each he likes to cold deck low eights or NES now we as the audience have no idea what that means no no but what's so great but we know that they know what it means and that it's important and later on we're going to kind of get it um where uh Floyd is opening the door for lonigan who's moving through the the train car and some woman bumps into him says excuse me and we realize that it's Billy Eileen Brennan and she walks by and as smooth as can be dropped the wallet she just ppck on the seat next to redfruit who grabs it and it's just beautiful smooth yeah by the way kind of reminds me of some of the things that go on in the Great Escape when they're on the train and they all they all know each other but can't acknowledge each other because they're all Escape prisoners and Redford goes into gondor's room says she picked him clean we open up that wallet and he's got 15 or $20,000 in his wallet yeah which we now know is like almost like $300,000 you know casually he's waiting for you in the card room I don't wait and then we see John dorf take out a deck of cards it is obvious what they're doing but it's done really well which is We on Newman as he shuffles the cards the camera moves down to the table the hands go out of frame the hands come back into frame and of course now it's a it's a card guy whose name by the way is John scar who did the the card tricks and so now he's doing this great card manipulation where you see Shuffle pull out the ace hide the ace the ace was right on top Ace is on you know like just all this beautiful beautiful card manipulations and then the cards get put down and the hands go out and then they come back in and then we pan up and there's Newman you know yeah really good stuff it it is it is to me it's like obvious the trickery they're doing and they did the trick real well yeah and it's important too because so far we've we've been handed a a gondorf who's a bit questioning of his abilities right now right so we have to have some kind of faith that he can pull this off so seeing him do all this is really cool but just just uh just to keep that fear inside of you as an audience we see him mess up the final moment with the with the deck there and and uh hooker gives him a big white-eyed look like oh my God are you gonna be able to do this so I love that they keep that tension throughout that gondorf might not be able to pull this off you know well the the just tapping on the tension between hooker and gondorf yeah is you got to keep it alive throughout the whole movie you know um and uh by the way I I didn't know where to bring this up but this seemed like as good a place as any is that Redford and Newman played a lot of pranks on each other in the course which I've heard that uh Brad Pit and George Clooney play pranks on each other they love to do that yeah and one of them that I heard they both had Porsches and so they'd be out between takes polishing their Porsches on the studio on the back lot and then they would race their Porsches around the back lot and at one point Paul Newman stole Redford's Porsche and hit it somewhere Jesus you sure you check this guy out he seemed like a pleasant man a lot of cash on him $200 suit expensive luggage I'll vou for him why isn't he here then I'm not interested I'm sitting there going thinking about this I'm like did this conductor get killed after this I I that's a good question cuz he vouched for this guy and it does not go well in any way it's a good question back in gondor's rooms he's dabbing his cheeks with little Gordon's Jin and Redford's watching going what the are you doing then he's pouring of thein out and of course how did we meet gondorf we met him as a knockout drunk under his bed and so hooker's going worried you know can I trust this guy always drink Jin with a mark kid he can't tell if you cut it uh which you know by the way whenever I have a Mark I always drink Jin that I've watered down that's just that's just standard operating procedure right and now we're back at the game they finally decide they're going to start without him gondorf is in the hall this is as you mentioned before this is the actor backstage yeah the moment before going on he gets himself together everything Newman does from this point forward in the movie I adore it's amazing I agree 100% it is because and the thing is he didn't just walk through that door he burst through that door and his first line is sorry I'm late guys I was taking a crap you see lonigan look over at the conductor who just vouched for this guy yeah it's hilarious it's a great be it's a great opening because just the kicking of the door knowing and then lonigan being wanting to start without the guy so already he is um behind the eightball in lanigan's eyes and then just coming in and and being so rude and brusk and talking about taking a crap and then shaking everyone's hands vigorously you know there's there's a whole energy that he's giving that's um an arrogance and a not understanding the uh I don't know the seriousness of what's going on in the room which is great you know snapping the tension in half which is fantastic I'm sure all these guys are scared of Lanigan you know oh terrified well and I think in particular because we've been told that lanigan's actual Origins is he's from Five Points yes right but he is pretending that he's not from there and so everything lanan done is is try to trying to put forth the veneer of class and classiness and elegance and so this guy literally come and say sorry I'm late was taking a crap is totally lowering the entire image of what he wants to be yes yes right exactly and the first thing that Shaw does naturally or name is Shaw now gondorf does is reach out to pay because he's got a big stack of money and they go uh Mr Shaw this is a gentleman's game we assume you're all good for your debts which is a perfect plant for where this is going to go yep and now we're everyone you know Lan takes $5,000 we realize this is going to be a pretty I mean honestly if we're betting $100 minimum and $5,000 that's an expensive bet for me you know G poker game for me today much less than 36 Mr Shaw we usually require a tie at this table if you don't have one we can get you one hey have you real nice of you Mr Lan Lan to burp at the resp someone corrects their your pronunciation and you just burp at them I think it's per again completely disrespecting him but doing it in a way that is oblivious to who he is so Lana Lan is like kind of stuck in this place because normally he'd probably kill this dude or get up and attack this guy but because he is creating space at this guy might not know who he is he's riding with this to see where it goes you know and maybe trying to take his money too obviously because he cheats as we heard yeah of course so uh we're back to the game it's a little later we see that uh gondorf is wearing this very poorly tied tacky tie now and the bets are going around and that you know there's you know these are Big bets $500 $300 and then a raise and then a call and here's another screenwriting thing I would like to tell you okay if you decide to write your first screenplay my advice for you is to not put a poker game into it I my very first screenplay I went I wrote they're now they're goingon to play poker writing a screenplay scene in a poker game is so hard because all the dialogue is dict ated by what everyone's betting and so I had to I realized like oh I have to know what's in everybody's hand and what they've bet and where the bet is and who is calling and who is dealing because all the dialogue was dependent upon that and every time I changed the dialogue I had to change the bets because it didn't fit right it was just so it gets into this weird technical things you don't think about so they all show their cards and lonigan has two pairs and thinks he's going to win and then Shaw lays down his 310 and I don't know if you've heard this John but nobody likes a sore winner have you ever heard that expression yes nobody likes a winner but nobody likes a sore winner even more and sha talk about or gondorf talk about a sore winner he puts down his his his 310 laughing at all of them and says tough LU on hand but that's what you get for playing with your head up your ass couple more like that we can all go to bed early I I think Paul Newman is having the time of his life oh yeah especially Paul Newman who you know probably loves as you said pulling the pranks on him in Redford he loves busting balls so this is just all like just destroying all of what what's how people are supposed to be acting in a situation like this it's great and he starts to pour himself a drink with his watered down bottle of Gordon's gin and Robert Shaw reaches out grabs the bottle by the neck oh yeah and pulls it forcefully out of his hand and just just the power in that gesture and the intensity is amazing and then when he speaks name's Lan D Lan you're going to remember that Mr Shaw you're going to get yourself another game you follow there's a again there's a lighting here and an angle of the camera here right I mean Paul Newman who is fully in bright white light and then when you get to lonigan and what Robert Shaw is doing he's in a darker suit and when he reaches for that bottle you see half of his face is covered in darkness to add more to the element of danger with this guy and you're right the way he grabs that bottle and takes it from him he's essentially trying to threaten him or intimidate him in the situation and he's probably mad because he's losing too there there are all sorts of ways we talk about fine acting we talk about Charisma we talk about their range we talk about their ability with accents their ability with physicality I'm going to add another factor which is just pure heat or intensity and I think on that scale there are few people who bring it harder than Robert Shaw between this and jaws and a few other performances yeah it it is like an inferno a contained Inferno is going on taking a pel especially yeah yeah I've never seen that film oh really oh he's intense in that film I I literally just put it because we were just talking about it when you mentioned Shaw before and I went yeah I need to see that and so it is now on my list so I will watch it soon definitely um again it's later the game we cut in and this is a moment which is right on the edge of too far we cut back in with gondorf sneezing into his tie yeah which is so disrespectful because lonigan got him this tie he's doing everything he can to get under lonigan's skin everything exactly well that's why I say it's like there's the con yes we're conning him out of his money and we're setting up this situation but the real con is the emotional con the real con is he needs to hate this person he sees as Shaw yeah yeah and again Shaw wins another hand well fin just me don't worry about it pal they would let you in here if you weren't a Chum lard will be joining you in a couple of minutes what's great to is every it's not just that lonigan hates this guy everyone at the table hates him yeah hate him again this is this is the moment where there's a look to the conductor and I'm like oh this guy the conductor is [ __ ] like there's a reason why he ends up not killing hooker or gondorf but there's no reason not to kill this conductor yeah Mr Clayton I think we should take a break for five minutes temper seem to be running a little high I love the way Robert Shaw talks Shaw's response is oh come on linaman yeah little shot step by step yeah well and even watch watch Robert shaww as he's exiting the room and his smile back at Newman yeah is equally as dangerous as his sneer you know yeah stack me a cooler F come on we'll be in the station in another hour the other guys are the big losers you're still okay fix me that c NES I'll cut it in on Clayton's deal we don't actually know what a cooler is really most audience members I would think at this moment but we've heard that Lanigan sheets we don't exactly understand it and we hear is he wants to basically you know knock Clayton out early so it's just him going toe-to-toe with Shaw yeah we're back in the game uh one of the other guys is folded and we see that it's you know Clayton I guess is dealt he's handed lonigan the cards to uh cut Lan Cuts them and I think in an incredibly obvious way steals the deck replaces it and puts it in his lap wrapped in a napkin yeah yeah but I also think it's key that we cut at this moment we cut to gondorf and he is clearly not looking no right exactly you know so we go oh no are they going to get him like what's going to happen because you're worried about this right and we also should say that sitting directly behind gondorf is Floyd yeah and so gondorf has been very aware of that and careful to literally keeps his cards close to his vest throughout this whole thing because about you know an enemy is over his shoulder and could look at his cards yeah and I'm pretty sure the train conductor has you know you know uh been in this dance numerous times where he knows lonigan is cheating right next to him and he purposely does not look in that direction you know because he doesn't look not look at him one time and he's doing it very obviously next to him and and the rest of this it's done the the film making is just Stellar in terms of the storytelling because the you know the cards are dealt we see gondorf look very carefully at his cards and we see he's de been dealt three threes yeah Queen in an eight we see that Lan has a pair of nines 500 here five 1,000 and I love to that there was even thought of like what were the chips you know like how many hundreds how many thousands Blue Chips were like it's always interesting the way that they're doing this yeah uh and of course Clayton does fold he's out and we take our card Shaw takes his two cards getting rid of weum is Queen in his eight lonigan takes three um and gondorf looks at his cards sees now he has four threes an amazing hand and of course we know that lonigan has four NES and is going to win it's going to win right 500 here 500 and 1,000 and finally Shaw goes well and I'm sorry I keep calling him Shaw or gondorf Sean gondorf are the same person sorry about that because he's that's his fake name versus real name which is even more consider confusing considering the other actor is also named Shaw so I apologize for the confusing I'm going to stick to gondorf from this point forward many people have seen the movie so yeah but so gondorf says you're 1,000 I'll raise you 2,000 he slides in his chips Mr Clemens give me $110,000 more and lonigan puts it in and right now we know oh my God gondorf is going to lose yeah and it this has caught the interest of everyone else who is just kind of casually talking about when's the train going to arrive what are we doing people have now paying close attention what going to happen here and finally gondorf calls lonigan puts down what he knows to be his winning 49 yeah big huge smile on Floyd's face who set this all up perfectly and then gondorf looks at his hand and says four jacks and there's a reaction from Floyd and the camera Zooms in on those cards revealing those Jacks and gondorf says you owe me 15 grand pal and everyone's looking and then lonin reaches into his jacket to pull out the wallet where he has 15 grand and can't find it and goes I must have left my wallet in my room and I I it is such an insult to injury to to pull out the money that you stole from someone to to show them while you were prepared and brought money to this thing and they weren't don't hand me into that crap when you come to a game like this you bring your money how do I know you won't take a powder I mean Lan lunges across the room yeah he's turned it around on him right like he's said when he came through the door he was going to give his money for the chips and the conductor was like well this is not that kind of game we trust you to handle your debts and here he turns it around at the end going like how can you not have your money don't give me that [ __ ] pal you know so I like that he he is this is not just only a con for L it's also to get as deeply as possible under his skin so he makes mistakes and those mistakes are where they're going to get their advantage because he's such a formidable foe you know well it's also the thing of you're playing the person yes and lonigan is a person from from the beginning of the movie through this whole thing everything for him is about reputation you know he says if he lets hooker get away with it then anyone will come after he's gonna have to kill everybody he's come out of Five Points pretending he's from Forest Hills or whatever yeah like all of these things is done to create a certain reputation a certain sense of style and now this is threatening his reputation it is embarrassing him in front of these other businessmen he's like this is like laser focused at his core ego stuff yep exactly all right I'll tell you what I'll do I'll send a boy around to your room in 5 minutes you better have the money it's going to be all around Chicago that you're welched you won't be able to get a game of Jacks and the reaction by the way from Floyd the henchman at the end of the scene of just like like oh [ __ ] yeah he's fantastic you know why cuz he's got to deal with his angry boss and he hates dealing with his boss already dealing with his boss when he's in a mood GH so uh gondorf walks back down the corridor smiling goes into his room and turns to Hooker and goes you're on kid I can tell you this a hard act to [Laughter] follow uh I think Newman was talking about himself in a met way 100% 100% And then Redford has out and we're back with Doyle and Floyd and Doyle Floyd at this moment is like he's scared he's going to die I think yeah Jo I knew I gave him four threes you had to make a switch and lonigan just the explosion of Rage out of him when he says we can't let him get away with it what was I supposed to do calling for teaching better than me in front of the others so this level of anger and rage is what Johnny hooker is about to walk into yeah and at this moment I think it's a good time to end part one of the sting because a lot of stuff is going to happen we've set all the pieces up yep and now we're going to start knocking them down and as always we'd love to hear your thoughts of this thing you can visit us on our Facebook page just do a search for the ciles it's sinor files on Twitter ciles podcast on Instagram and of course you can subscribe to the show at all the usual Paces on Apple podcast Spotify or YouTube on YouTube we love your comments and on Spotify it's been really great because on Spotify which Apple doesn't let you do you can comment on individual episodes and we've seen your comments and some of the most recent episodes they're super fun to get thank you so much for your comments there you could support the show at patreon.com theophiles where you can listen to our copil shorts adree versions of the show as well as joining our Advisory Board and of course the adree versions and the uh shorts are also available on Apple podcast for a simple subscription fee and you can buy or stream this thing along with every other movie we've ever reviewed on cop.net and you can reach me at Sr Maris on Twitter and Sr mars1 on Instagram John how would people reach you you can always reach me at Thea say on Twitter Instagram and Tik Tok the outl nation on Twitch my YouTube channel youtube.com/ johnroa say and my other podcasts the hot mic and the geek buddies they're out there for you all to enjoy and listen to and I think that's it for this week and we'll be back next time to conclude our exploration of one of the greatest caper movies of all time the sting right here on the C