EP 5 PART 1 - THE FOX HOLLOW FARM MURDERS - HERB BAUMEISTER

[Music] hey everybody oh my God welcome back to U my sweater drunk I'm not God I know it's been a week if I sound disgusting which you know usually my voice is pretty I don't know it probably sounds just like this but um if I sound sick that's because I was it wasn't with covid thankfully I think it's just a regular normal BC as in before covid type of cold um so I'm I'm dealing with it though but that doesn't keep me from doing this so I hope you had a very very Happy Thanksgiving I had a great Thanksgiving I got a chance to see my family and um yeah and then like the following day I talked to my mom on the phone for 14 hours so that was cool um I hope you all got a lot of stuff done like I did I was able to go through my storage unit and throw away some stuff and reorganize I um scared myself this morning cuz I went in my underwear drawer and I saw that all my panties were folded and then I was like who did this and it was me it was me I follow a lot of um effective spaces slome edits slash all things organization type of accounts and on Black Friday I decided that I was going to fold everything that I could fold it's how I get through grief I guess that's just me so um but yeah I feel like you know my Thanksgiving was very very productive and um I'm happy I had that even that extra day to kind of poke around in my brain while while I'm researching you know this dirt bag that I'm going to tell you about but before I get started um I'm going to tell you what I'm drinking because even though I'm sick I am still going to drink um I am drinking very simple actually I'm going be honest I wasn't really in a mood to do or look for anything fancy so I kind of just felt like I wanted to share like my kind of like fall favorite now everybody knows that I love a cranberry vodka and this one is kind of a version of it and it's it's not even it is a cranberry vodka but it really is um cranberry vodka and then I added Reeds cranberry and ginger beer ginger ale I'm sorry and I love it and I love it I I I just do so this is this cocktail I'm drinking right now is basically cranberry ginger ale from Reeds the people that make the ginger beer and you know all that stuff and then cranberry juice because I really love the sourness of cranberry juice so I love adding it to anything so cranberry juice and then just regular old Tios vodka just keep it it simple with ice you know nothing spectacular sometimes believe it or not a cranberry vodka with like a dash of lavender syrup Bo yes it just makes your insid feel classy um so now you don't know who we're doing it day who we're talking about today and um I didn't know who this man was until about a week ago a cooworker of mine actually uh one of the producers of my show the show that I work on dropped this little pervert right into my lap and I spent you know the better half of a weekend reading books on this dookie this [ __ ] turd this dude is awful um and um it was very very interesting how I came across the store story so I'll give you a little I'll give you a little bit of a snippet on how I fell into this so today we're going to talk about the um Fox Hollow Farm murders and this is actually going to be a part one and a part too and here's why as I was diving into this monster there turned out to be a paranormal component so this episode is kind of a hybrid you know um it is the first part is going to be the murders and then the second part is going to be the ghosts because there are ghosts there will be ghosts so um so yeah I mean I just love how I'm accidentally falling into these and how these episodes is so organic because I did not I did have an idea of who I was going to do before I selected this dude but then when my my producer told me about this guy I just I just fell fell into that Twilight so you know how I do so um again this is the Fox Hollow Farm murders and you know this guy reminds me a lot of a even more terrible terrible version of HH homes um he is a lot and I know I say that every time because this is a podcast that is specifically supposed to be about people in things that they just do too much and this is one of those people so I'm sorry if I keep saying that but he's a he was a lot and um he he didn't keep me up at you know certain nights but then once I got into the Paranormal [ __ ] I was like o okay all right only going to research this in the daytime like shit's getting spooky so um all right so sip all right so today we're going to talk about herb bow Meister have you ever heard of him I'm wondering if you ever heard of him you probably haven't cuz I haven't heard of him herb bow Meister um he was born on April 7th 1947 in Indianapolis Indiana now this is this is kind of a local one I mean Indiana's across the street Herbert was born to Herbert senior and Elizabeth bowy and he was the oldest and had three siblings so he had one sister and two brothers now his father was a successful anesthesiologist so they were able to move to the Washington Washington Township which was an affluent area and he had you know loving parents by all accounts had a loving family he did well in school and was relatively popular among his friend group but then he he hit puberty which is likely when his personality shifted because he was this like practical joker at first but then his practical jokes became mad twisted and at some point he became more interested in himself instead of just being a joker for other people's attention you know most class clowns are class clowns because they seek attention but in his case he was just doing it for like his own self-interest now his adolescence was weird he had a lot of friends but he was known to kind of blurt out whatever was on his mind and a lot of his thoughts were just disturbing as hell like his old friend Bill Donovan said that he would wonder what it would be like to taste human urine now at first I was like okay got it then then he went on to say he just wanted to know whether it tastes better cold or fresh and then I was like what am I what am I about to find out about this person like this was the first [ __ ] story that I like found out from this friend Bill Donovan that was like one of the first characteristics of this guy that like they always mention every time they mention her bow meister and I just think that it's [ __ ] it's insane like I just I just want to know what it tastes like whether or not it's you know better cold or fresh like it's a [ __ ] you know coffee you know it's just GH gross so then he even would like Chase his friends around like acting like he want a drink like can I get a little drink of your peee and so for a long time his jokes to some people were actually funny and they you know people did say that he was actually funny it's just that he'd become weird now he was only doing all of this weird [ __ ] to boys because he knew the girls would find him disgusting so they were never going to find it funny but he even had the bad habit of like peeing on people's [Music] shoes I just I hate to laugh at this because nothing about it is funny if it were happening to me it's only funny cuz it didn't happen to me but if it were happen if walked up to me in the hallway and whipped out his penis and commits to pissing on my shoes I think I would I would go to jail that day for sure there's no doubt about it because the shock alone of somebody just violating me like that and it makes sense why he didn't do this to women because I think I think he would have got in trouble way earlier on if he did this to girls but he would also do like weird like disgust even more disgusting [ __ ] like one time he brought a dead crow filled with maggots to the school and put it on his teacher's desk now the students didn't say anything they was like you know this a weird joke you know he has this like odd morbid Fascination you know and um you know it's cool it's fine it was just a joke but the problem was is like this odd morbid Fascination situation started to overpower his schoolwork and so his grades started to slip there was even an instance where he like urinated on the teacher's desk and then finally the teacher called the parents and was like what the [ __ ] is up with your son cuz even though nobody was talking it was obvious it was him cuz it's like who else would do this so the school didn't originally kick him out but his parents decided to figure out a way to keep him out of the system I guess they didn't want him like any behavioral any of the behavioral programs or anything like that so they were like let's we want him to be on a straighten Arrow but it's obvious that there's something wrong with him so he negotiated somehow to keep him out of the system while he figured out a way to help him because he was like it was obvious to him that his son was sick now I respect this this this father because he's disconnected because that's the generation but his adamant on him getting psychological help is pretty strong pretty early like I know that back then that they were putting women away super crazy like they be like oh she needs a sedative and she must be hysterical and then they just throw them in you know some insane asylum and throw away the [ __ ] key but in this case to do this to your son you know what I mean like okay no no no you you need you need some help because what he realized was that he was irresponsible and he was impulsive and so he was becoming a pariah and so he started to spend a lot of his time alone people started to become distant I mean in a lot of ways his father even became distant his mother was kind of his only friend at that point and he tried really to be normal but herb couldn't fit in I mean he was into dead things which at that time was probably very very weird and it was likely already he was aware of his homosexuality now herwood continued to be a prankster and a Class Clown and he didn't have boundaries I mean he didn't really know if people were even getting a joke but he kind of didn't care if they were getting a joke because a lot of people didn't he was just like literally reading the Roman being like yeah they all look yeah I think all of this will make them uncomfortable like that's just how he he thought about things now he also though couldn't shake the feeling of wanting to to be popular so that but you know unfortunately that final year he spent the final year alone now he attended Indiana University he was treated like trash there I mean he dropped out of the school and then you know eventually would return but never graduated like his father was really trying to get him to return just out of embarrassment like I just need you to finish cuz you're disappointing the [ __ ] out of me and so his first job was at the Indianapolis Star which was a paper that hired him on as a copy boy which was a favor from you know some he his father cashed in a favor so he was obsessed herb was obsessed with his idea of success and he wanted to be accepted by his peers and one of the executives at the paper said that he was sensitive and he would try to impress the higher ups but he didn't really fit in because he was irritating like he would still be super in appropriate the advertising execs were kind of the same you know the same you know admin you know they tend they historically they're known for being vulgar so he flew under the radar with them and they would just justify his behavior by saying [ __ ] like oh well you know that's just herb it's like he made uncomfortable jokes and would literally sit at work and stare at people and he once offered a CO coworker a ride to a football game in hopes of becoming a part of the group because this was like his effort to fit in and this [ __ ] showed up in a hearse he even had on a chauffeur's cap and apparently he had purchased his hearse at a local Mortuary so I was like Jesus Christ so he wasn't getting the positive reinforcement that he craved I mean he became so introverted because his ass kissing was not working so he eventually quit his father wasn't happy he's like damn he's like more public shame basically so herb was sent back to the university completed one class for what and that class was human anatomy now he was not interested in it for real but wanted to perform an autopsy like that was the goal he thought he was going to perform an autopsy HH hommes alert so he actually did well because he really liked it I mean his father was kind of okay with his like new competitive spirit and so he developed some confidence he started kicking it you know in Indianapolis at the gay bars because that is the next logical step he's like I'm feeling good about myself it's time to hit up the gay bars father my confidence is up I'm about to start kicking it at the gay bar and so but he was still a little conf he was still a little like conscious of what his his social status meant and obviously being gay wasn't you know the thing back then so he would like try to kind of sneak to Indianapolis to the gay bars he wouldn't take his hearse he would take public transportation and um he actually did find community in the gay community because he was gay and he realized that he jived with them but because of how desperate he was to be popular he never allowed himself the opportunity to be a part of the community completely his father noticed though that his social life was a bit unted so um in an effort to please his father he joined the young Republicans club which is what a lot of claive gay gay closeted gay men do and people weren't offended by him or in this club or anything he did they thought that he was like the [ __ ] apparently and he started to actually gain some respect which I'm like wow so at the young Republicans Club he meets Juliana seder who um was a young woman and they had a lot in common and he decided that he was going to take the good path which he felt would lead him from his real Temptations so he was like you know what I'm just going to do the normal thing I met Juliana we seem to be hitting it off we got a lot in common I'm I'm going see I'mma see what this is like so at this point he wanted to just challenge his father because he's like feeling himself he's like look I'm in a young Republicans Club I got me a little girlfriend like but what he knew is he wasn't into AC Academia so his father reached out to his contacts again to find him another job and his mother was not with him dating Julie because she was kind of like she's just a school teacher but she knew that her son was a creep so she just figured if anything Julie would be cheaply bought off if need be because she's like she's a cheap date we can we can handle the financial burden in just in case our son does anything weird to her so his interviews um his job interviews were not that successful though I mean he lacked empathy and people could tell and he couldn't present himself as a normal person his relationship with Julie was the only stable thing that he had and his siblings weren't even [ __ ] with him so his life and his relationships aren't even normal now about 1971 he marries Julie seder and they get married at the United Methodist Church all of their family and friends were there and the pressure to be perfect was kind kind of a problem but not really to Herb because he was the type of personality personality that what he was lacking in confidence he would like like when he was lacking in confidence he would be like calm and when he felt sure of himself he would act out and so after the wedding he was acting normal so the job hunt wasn't looking so bad but these people are just fickle so like Julie and Herb they buy a house playing the cute couple but now sex has to happen and herb is absolutely not interested he was so sexually awkward with her that he didn't even want to be naked in front of her and he would change clothes in the bathroom he didn't even want to see her naked that's how cold and like completely unattracted he was now his father came to visit once and his father was just like you know what I'm about to have you committed he [ __ ] had him committed and they found that he was actually schizophrenic with multiple personalities they determined this even without him sharing any of his true thoughts like they were able to determine this just off the rip they were like uh wait a minute so for herb this diagnosis absolved him of of all responsib for her this diagnosis diagnosis absolved him of all responsibility though and anything he did after this was never his fault and so by saying oh look I'm schizophrenic I mean it's because I'm schizophrenic he thought he could just kind of like Get get away with this [ __ ] so his father had him discharged now there's no record of any other treatment after this at that time most doctors kind of just thought that mental illness was a product of moral failing so they figured you know they're not looking at him as being like truly sick they're thinking it's just you know some other [ __ ] now once at home he was back to himself he was able to function sexually I mean he still wouldn't let her see him naked though and they had sex in total darkness now it is also likely that with the therapy the therapy did help because he no longer felt guilty about his feelings so Julie is sitting up here thinking oh you know he just he got some weird problems from you know his school days so she just accepted it and decided to completely submit she was just like whatever like whatever ever I'm just I'm just going to let this I'm just going to ride this out and she liked being submissive so when he told her that he needed time alone to his thoughts she didn't push him I mean he started to take long drives and he was like taking walks and return and then and guess what he returned to work and he had a new entrylevel job he ended up working at the Bureau of Motor Vehicles which was another daddy hookup and his Co worker said that he would rant to other employees for no reason he once sent a Christmas sent the Christmas card to his co-workers with him and another dude dressed in drag almost jokes oh God now now that kind of did set back his promotion Pursuits I mean regardless though they still thought that was smart and they still thought that he had a lot of ambition HH chomes alert and he was eventually promoted to program director after 10 years now he started to act out even worse he had a bizarre sense of humor like he didn't know how to be a manager and would just be flat out disrespectful to co-workers like he would loudly berate them um but but even when they would complain I mean they really didn't have a valid complaint because he was actually good at his job and upper management thought that was more important and his superiors thought that he was management material they never felt they had grounds to get rid of now one time he peed on his boss's desk and he didn't get fired until he peed on a letter to the governor of Indiana now the psycho equation he's like Jordan bfor and Michael from the office meets dmer minus the cannibalism plus necrofilia that's the equation at this point he got back to kicking it in the gay bars he was like you could you could count almost link these moments of just like allout erratic Behavior to him needing to go back to the gay bars like he thought that being there would offer this release the release that he felt like he needed but the thing is is gay sex didn't even give him the satisfaction that he needed and that was frustrating for him and what I mean by that is like he wasn't into sensuality so one instance he hooked up with a guy and he learned that he you know he was he wasn't into sensual sex the guy started to kiss him and he was like oh my God I feel like I'm being attacked he was repulsed by this interaction and he felt like the boy was ruining the experience he didn't like the moaning he didn't like the talking he just wasn't into it and it really started to make him feel nause nauseous so he thought the talking was insufferable and he didn't need the boy to express satisfaction because he didn't really care that the boy was satisfied so he was kind of like yeah you can you kind of stop all that so in an effort to kind of quiet him he puts his hands around his throat and this is when he realized that he was into exfix finally this is what herb really wants so at home meanwhile in straight land Julie quit her journalism job in the mid 1970s and they moved and decided to focus on having a family because herb was making a decent living at the BMV so they started to have children but you know he doesn't like to have sex so that was a struggle and at this time he's just out here sleeping with male prostitutes trying to figure his penis out but finally they had three children they had 1979 Marie 1981 Eric 1984 Emily now Julie would go on to say that they only had sex six times in the 25 years that they were married you know the whole Julie thing is pretty interesting too because there is just a part of her that was like I'm just going to ignore it you know she definitely knew that he was probably gay I I mean I obviously I I I would never say that she knew that he was killing people or anything but she definitely had to know that he was gay you are married to a man for 25 years and you only have sex six times and you think that that's normal I mean that's not normal for some couples to have sex six times in a month some people are like wait a minute you know what I mean like so it's quite interesting that you know you just ignore it she I mean you'll see as we go along there's a lot of details that she just blatantly ignores and I know I know what it's like to do that to see Warren inside to be like [Music] nah nah that can't be it that can't be it but you know and a lot of ways he definitely showed her who he really really was because think about it too he never wanted to be seen naked he never wanted to see her naked he was he he was not attracted to her sexual and I don't think it was just because of her and her physical appearance because we know that men love you know tight War holes so you know people marry all types of people with all types of bodies and you know I mean he I know that that was like his cover up that relationship but he's so not attracted to you that he he doesn't even want to be naked around you like that's rare that's like weird so this kind of disrupted his life I mean people said that he was a loving father that he was very generous he was always spend time with his kids he spent a lot of time at home with his kids um which could be why there was a period after they um uh ended up getting a bigger house while he was out of the bars he wasn't in the bars too much now he did have an outlet and this was when he started doing [ __ ] at work like I said before he pissed on his boss desk now this happened multiple times and this happened multiple times for months people started to hate him at work but I think they were all scared to confront him because he was so gross they didn't know what they what he was capable of so Herb's boss he kind of accepted it for a while which I was like you let somebody pee on your desk multiple times for months and you just accepted it but it wasn't until he pissed on that ladder that's when it was like now I don't I've had I've had it like these people are crazy so they decided that okay you know what you really have to [ __ ] go and if he left without making too much noise then they wouldn't tell anybody about it which of course that's the route that Herb's going to take because he does understand that socially he's trying to maintain a certain image um now there were some police reports that there was a man out there on the street getting rough with male prostitutes but nobody cared and Herb stopped frequenting the clubs as much and people thought that he moved or like he was like back in the closet they were like maybe he maybe he just pulled out for a minute oh [Music] pause oh I'm stupid so herb was fired from the dmnv we know this and so Julie she now has to get back into the workforce and so she was doing like some part-time teaching but she didn't make enough and so herb took on like these traveling salesman's jobs so Julie was like you know she was like you shouldn't you she was trying to encourage him like you should do something different cuz you're doing a lot of traveling so using what seems to be his the last of any of his father's favors he ended up working at a thrift shop for three years and he did not like working there he thought it was so degrading but what he saw was that it was incredibly profitable the business I mean his father then passes away and and Herb's kind of elated he's like oh I'm free it's almost like his father's death set him free I mean he he felt more confident and then he had the idea to open his own thrift shop so his mom newly widowed he borrows $4,000 from her and they opened a save a lot and a Save A Lot was a thrift store that was started in 1981 in conjunction with the children Bureau of Indianapolis now they were a charitable organiz ation so they were getting sa a lot was getting a lot of their free product from the Char charitable donations that they were receiving and Save A Lot would sell it so it became incredibly lucrative now they would then pay a portion to the charity which at the time was more than what the charity was just getting in donations so the place so basically the Children's Bureau washed those free clothes that they were getting and they basically sold them um and then resold them to other people as hand-me-downs now people did say that the place was clean and that it was organized um and they were becoming really successful they made 50,000 the uh first year and they opened two and each of them so they both managed one now in 1991 they moved 20 miles north of India ianapolis and this was a district called the Westfield District in Hamilton County they got a tutor style Mansion called Fox Hollow Farms it was an 18 acre estate had an indoor swimming pool nine bathrooms and four bedrooms it was 10,000 square ft it even had a [ __ ] riding stable now Julie was finally happy she was like I got the lifestyle I wanted she ain't really got the man she wanted for real um but she didn't really care she was like I'm not [ __ ] them it is what it is she had her kids and then she could also top it off that she had a little luxury so she was happy about that now she would also often visit herb visit Herb's mom who had a Retirement Condo in Lake waasi or waasi uh she was living the [ __ ] life and she had all she wanted so she wasn't really questioning him at all he was in control of absolutely everything um now herb was also considered the nice one in the family when the kids had friends over he'd bring them sandwiches he'd dig around in a garden and [ __ ] trying to act like he's normal now much later the house would start to fall apart though they lacked or order the grounds were overgrown the house was cluttered herb turned into a complete pack rat the business was successful but herb would keep like the excess stocks and mannequins and [ __ ] in the house and so Julie became annoyed and when the kids would have friends over they would only be able to play in the backyard so herb may have started killing as early as 1980 over 12 men were found along a highway that connects Indianapolis with Columbus Ohio they were killed in the summer and the spring months between 1980 and 1990 and Men started to just like disappear and then turn up in rural locations strangled to death so one W witness said that it's likely that he killed at least 50 to 60 people now herb and Julie moved to Fox Hill estate in 1992 that was just one year after the I70 murders stopped herb would make frequent business trips to Ohio and spent much time at CD hotels and when he was on the road he had had the privilege of being himself because no one around him knew him so Julie would later confirm that in the 9 years of running the business that he would have made at least a 100 trips to Ohio so now the murders so then at some point in 1993 1995 the murders picked up so when they moved to the state the state in '92 he kind of took a year off if that was the case if it was him now it's unknown how many people were killed at that time a lot of them were runaways you know how they are about runaways when they started to discover the bodies they didn't even investigate because they were prostitutes and one time a witness even sat down with a sketch artist and the sketch was a spitting image of herb but it was never circulated now in the beginning he used to wage rides for sex it's like it took a while um with this way to pick up the dudes I mean he would originally start picking up hitchhiker simply because he was lonely and he never killed any of them but then you know he could do anything he wanted while he was out there so no one knew him he could be anybody so he eventually builds this confidence and starts just flat out asking for sex from The Hitchhikers that he would pick up and he didn't think that they were real people anyway so in true psycho fashion only he matters and when he got back home he would probably always think of these types of experiences because he didn't want to have sex with his wife but he's a sexual deviant so boom back to the road herb was so sadistic and he became way forceful in how he engaged with hitchhikers and his concept of it was like you're not leaving this car without having sex so herb even had a gun in his car to intimidate them I mean originally the gun was supposed to be for protection since he was TR a traveling salesman but then he would ask them if he would you know if they wanted to be choked and it didn't matter what they was going to say like it didn't matter what their answer was he was going to do it anyway and part of him knew he wanted to control he would later find out that if they were dead he had the ultimate control and his perversion is now escalating so he would go ahead and start like strangling them to a point of absolute discomfort and then he would let go and there were some instances where the boy would actually wake up but then there was a a couple of times where the boy didn't and the boy wasn't moving so excuse me that was my chest so he stopped doing like the sales trips and instead he started to pick up men on his Save A Lot business trips and one shopping center though now this was crazy one shopping center along the I70 there was a man who kind of looked like herb that shot a woman in a store in two months five women were killed and a man was killed accidentally because he had a he had long hair and a slender build and the killer thought that it was a woman now the killer tried to kill two more people but the gun jammed so no one died now here's the herb connection ballistic evidence showed that someone tried to use a jeweler Rouge which is a buffing and polishing tool that's used for like metals and [ __ ] and they found out that a Jeweler's Rouge was actually used on the weapon to clear the barrel to keep it from jamming Jeweler's Rouge is used in thrift stores to polish and remove scratches from different items so there was a little bit of a connection there circumstantial of course but still a connection herb also owns the same type a gun the shooter was using a 22 caliber pistol and he kept it in his car for protection now he was apparently a good shot her was and that was according to his Republican friends that he went to the gun range with so even you know then he knew that taking a gun into a gun shop for repairs would connect him to the crimes which he learned from his police friends so it's kind of like yeah police maybe you shouldn't like give away Trade Secrets cuz you never know who you're talking to so the women killings were weird and you know it's unknown if he was truly responsible for him for them but there were some eyewitness accounts that prove that he was like if he did do like any of the the women murders he oddly just like walked up to people and shot them in the back of the head which when you think about is pretty [ __ ] terrifying um and also very different from what he usually did that is probably one of the scariest things that could happen to a person um where you are walking down the street because you know there's a social contract that we all sign and there are some who who you know hold it dear and then there are some who break it and they you know there's a trust that we all have when we're walking down Michigan Avenue we're you know situationally aware but we're not thinking that the person behind us is going to kill us I mean if we lived like that we would we would be absolutely every everybody would be insane um so just imagine the just Terror that comes with somebody just walking behind random people just out of nowhere and shooting them in the back of the head that's just that's just too much that's [ __ ] that's just that's scary to me so anyway now the book that I read which probably should have told you I read a couple books I'mma put them in the show notes because I don't remember all the names but um the book that I read stated that um he he had quote a fragmented personality so he fragmented his personality into acceptable and unacceptable personas that he would try to adopt at the appropriate time so he had personalities that went with all of these different behaviors um and things got so bad in Herb's brain that he would want to kill himself at some point there was another side of him of his mind that was possibly so appalled by the sexual violence that he was you know doing and killing women without Detachment was more or kind of like the opposing Force so you know there's that one side of him that's disgusted by what he's doing to these men and then there's that it's kind of like a a mental tug tug of war I mean because when you think about it too he likely blames his issues on the only two women that he has in his life and that's his mother and his wife and he can't kill them so he just killed these random women um like revenge for him like like not being able to exist when they're around that's the you know that's kind of the way the author kind of broke it down is like the if he did the woman killings then it kind of fits into his psychology because of his relationship with his wife and his mother um those murders are just very detached but and they're so different it's like who knows you know who knows but there were a few witnesses that claim it was him but you never know after high-profile is whether or not those eyewitness testimonies are true cuz you know people see all types of [ __ ] and then depending on how much time has passed since they since the event occurred and when they were asked people's memories are just not really that reliable so now Indianapolis had a bit of a gay scene um Indianapolis was the big city environment opposed to the other parts of Indiana that could be more conservative and while Indianapolis was still consider conservative there was no gay community community activism that promotes like that protects gay people like other cities were starting to do at that time he had developed in this time herb had developed in this time a bit of a cocaine problem and since he was making so much money he used it in abundance and his priorities became skewed and the drugs was giving him confidence so you you know it was like he was less focused on his family and his business and more focused on where he was more confident which was in these you know gay aggressively violent sexual situations um he started to kind of just banish Julian the kids from the city in the summer months he cuz you know really he just wanted to start killing people at home and while they were out of the way you know boys were disappearing left and right but the police didn't care now in the bars he went by the name of Brian Smart that was his pseudonym he kept to himself at this point because he' been out of the game for a minute and he was trying to stay away from people that used to see him when he frequented the bars before also think of the time AIDS was really starting to take over the scene and he was starting to kind of feel like the gay man stock was getting a bit l you know it's like then there was the fact that like a lot of the scene that he was used to like the drag and SNM scene that was a part of so big and so out there and a part of the gay culture in Indianapolis at that time that it was like drag and SNM was starting to become more part of The Fringe so it was becoming more like an underground scene now he did like cuz he you know he knew how to pick up men he knew what worked and he prayed on People based on if he knew he could physically overcome them or not I mean he's not going to pick up some big old dude and then risk getting [ __ ] up you know having that that big old dude beat his ass or or actually end up raped or killed himself so he knew to pick up men that were not a part of society that were not well known and he figured out this methodology pretty easily like he would space them out he would pick up one every other week and then he wouldn't pick them up from the same place twice like he was really becoming an expert now there are eight identified victims and I got stories for some and I don't have anything for others John Lee Bayer he was age 20 Richard Douglas Hamilton age 20 he was the earliest Stephen s hail age 26 Allan Wayne brousard he was age 28 his he now he took Allen to Fox Hill Farms and he attacked him and Brian strangled him and took him to the swimming pool where he would record his a CU that was another thing too he had a video camera set up and he liked having sex with with them as as they were dying so um that that became a big thing for him not them not being alive and so he had what he did whatever he did with him and then he would burn their bodies and these this is Alan brard is kind of around like that practice time for him where he was like figuring out what worked what didn't work um and he started to think of ways to perfect his craft then there was Jeffrey Jones who was aged 31 he goes home with Brian to Fox Hill Farm Brian shares his cocaine with him they're in the P pool and Brian then drowns Jeff he takes off his clothes to wash them so he could sell them in the store because apparently that's what he did with a lot of their clothes he would take their clothes he would wash them and then he would sell him in his store and he had his like body to do whatever he wanted that was his whole thing too part of his Psychology was to get them to stop talking so he would just have full control over their bodies he took him to the woods behind his house and he burned his body there then there was Manuel rendel he was uh 31 there was Roger Allen goodlet now he was aged 33 Roger Allen goodlet is kind of what the the victim that really [ __ ] up um herb and you probably heard me say Brian a couple times remember Brian is his Alias that's who he's in the gay clubs with uh ass he's pretending to be Brian Brian's smart so with Roger Goodland goodlet he met Brian and thought Brian was hilarious they would have good times you know he thought he was funny and Roger had arrived at Fox Hill Farms and told him that it wasn't his house but that he was house sitting for someone else they go to the pool while at the pool he introduced him to the idea of xixi now herb grabs the pool hose wraps it around his neck pulls it tight and there's no resistance so it's likely that her thought that goodlet wanted to die but I think goodlet just trusted him and he didn't resist um because it seemed like they had built up a little bit of a bond so I think there's a possibility that when he introduced the xixi part to him he just trusted that he wasn't going to kill him which I mean anybody who gauging you know um that like aggressive sex or SNM or anything like that there is a trust that you have with that other person that they're not going to cross the line so but goodlet you know he seemed to have liked herb and that's my opinion of it in the book The author kind of implies that you know a herb wanted to die and also it's important to remember this herb as I'm reading you these accounts from these people that passed away these accounts are kind of pieced together from the science and the evidence that they've been able to accumulate after it was all over these are not actually full accounts obviously if the person didn't survive they can't tell the story so you know they kind of tried to piece together what happened to these victims so this is what I'm reading I don't want you ought to think that this is just like oh this is exactly what happened it may be it may not be but this is what they think happened to in these particular instances with these particular victims okay all right sip so so goodl wanted to die at least that's what the book thinks but Goodlett liked herb and Herb killed goodlet and had sex with his lifeless B body so you know it's kind of sad to think of goodlet liking her because it's like and then this happened you know this is why people don't trust people um and you know then there's the part about the camera which you know he if he recorded everything and they claim that he did he effectively disposed of the tapes because nobody has seen them um and as well as the the bodies he had learned how to De how to dispose of bodies in anatomy and pathology classes and like stuff like that so this idea of burning them you know I mean he's he's putting a lot of effort into disposing of these bodies it takes an immense amount of heat to burn a body and he put their fragments in the river so this is also that part where people were like damn I can't believe that he got away with this for so long that people just ignored it another victim by the name of Michael friederick kiern he was 46 um that was the that was one of the last ones on the list that of the eight that were identified now at this point the house is falling completely apart the TR This truly took a toll on Julie like she had her dream house but the house was a mess I mean she was still not sleeping with him and she started to notice that there was something just absolutely wrong with him like he love bomb her in order to put on like appearances and she got sick of that [ __ ] she noticed that he would follow the stories of like various gay men and their disappearances and deaths which I'm like oh my God there's another one there's another sign girl girl no I mean look I read weird [ __ ] but if somebody sees me like if if my significant other saw me just looking in the paper at the same you know stories and like being obsessed with it I'd be like why are you so obsessed with these especially considering their history he doesn't sleep with you he's kind of strange he disappears you know what I mean I'm not just talking about somebody who's just got a morbid curiosity and they're following the story just cuz they find it interesting I'm talking about somebody who's just like your wife is noticing all of these weird little quirks that you have and now you're sitting here following the stories of various gay men and their disappearances and deaths it's a bit it's a bit odd now she even got to the point where she stopped speaking to them and because of their religious upbringing the idea of divorce wasn't really preferred but it was kind of turning into an option he was continuously trying to act normal but Jo Julie was not like she was not with it and she was noticing that his slip was showing like he was starting to rot from the inside out and he stopped caring about his home life he stopped caring about the business he stopped caring about any of it now inter Virgil Vandergriff now Virgil Vandergriff was a private investigator he was well known for more missing for for well known for missing cases and he was hired by Alan bro's mother while investigating he had to visit the gay bar so he was he had become you know super not into the gay bars but he he got to a point where he had built so many relationships that he was able to infiltrate the community and create a network of contacts and he immediately became an ally to the community for his the work that he was doing because so many gay men from that area had be showing up missing and nobody cared so he had spotted an article about the missing uh guy by the name of Jeff Jones and he thought that he looked a lot like Allen and so his gut was telling him that something wasn't right so then the mother of Roger goodlet came to him his mother was worried because you know Roger was in the gay scene and Roger was too trusting and the police were unimpressed with Virgil's evidence cuz Virgil immediately thought okay seems like to me we got a serial killer and they were kind of like eh so he ends up getting in contact with a woman by the name of Mary Wilson Mary Wilson she was the one that was like investigating a lot of missing cases and he was just looking for somebody in the system that could help him because he was like they ended up needing each other she wasn't getting a lot of help from the department and he wasn't getting a lot of like he didn't have a lot of resources like she did and so he ended up working with her and he worked with her pro bono he didn't charge her so Virgil and Mary started to Canvas the scene and were able to confirm from a witness that he saw goodlet getting into a light blue car with Ohio plates now based on that evidence Mary figured he was the I I70 Strangler because she had been looking into all of those missing cases well uh she didn't have a lot of evidence that he was like she was like damn I'm you know I kind of you know you know how we watch these shows and it's always like the gut feeling it's like it's that gut feeling that they um you know that they they just knew that this person was that person but they didn't have the evidence so excuse me I feel like okay I was just making sure that I wasn't going to cough so now she's with the police department but she's with the police department that doesn't really care about any of this and so even though so now she doesn't have any evidence and by Mo by August 1994 they had to sit on the case because they were like [ __ ] we got to wait for new evidence so um you know this is obviously like they got the car they're like we know it's Ohio plates we know what color the car is we just don't know the actual plates so then a week later a friend of Roger goodlet comes to Virgil and goodlet mother she didn't want to wait through all of the red tape that was the reason why she went to Vander Griff because she was trying to go through the proper channels and she wasn't getting any love and if I'm not mistaken I think it was Roger Goodlett mother who actually brought um Roger goodlet friend to the office because this guy now in One Source I read I saw a documentary he went by the name of Mark goodye I saw another documentary uh I read the book he went by Tony Harris I am going to call him Tony just to just to pick one um Tony he you know he remained um he was a friend of Rogers and they were friends and they would have sex sometimes um goodlet excuse me the vi victim Roger goodlet his mother she even had a relationship with not like sexually but she knew the friend so they had known each other for a long time they would just occasionally have sex now they were used to the the office of Virgil was like totally used to people popping in and out and giving information all the time but Tony actually met who he thought was the killer which was Brian Smart now this is their really like first clue Tony told Virgil of an encounter he had with a man at a gay bar he said that the man was always alone and was very like uncomfortable like he was never quite comfortable so Tony said that he saw him looking at the goodlet missing poster and he had this weird suspicious feeling that he has something to do with the death of Roger so excuse me he's also a very amazing friend like his his Spidey senses are on point and so he Tony knew that like there was something off about this man he's like he's just off so he kind of infilt he kind of injects himself into to this by acting like he's into Brian and he gets to him his home they get to that point where Brian wants to take him home now they're like having small talk while they're in the car Brian tells him that he's from Ohio and that he's in town taking care of some people's like someone's house which we know it's his house and they go to the estate there were mannequins all over the place he said that the owner didn't want to be alone that was the reason you know it's mad D it's mad D to um to have you know this like like these mannequins that that's that's just weird maybe it's just me but it's just it's mad weird so I mean of course it's weird I mean to him it's it it's also not that that weird cuz we know that he was running out of like places to keep the mannequins for his stores but it's like why you got so many you only got two stores like Jesus Christ so so Tony um also suspected that at some point herb had done a bit of coat he said he had left he was like you know let me go freshen up and then when he came back he was kind of like wired so the whole plan was that they were to go for swim and he mentions that oh you know I learned trick and um he talks to him about like the buzz that it gives him it's like the biggest orgasm you've ever had and Herb asks Tony to put the hose around his neck while he masturbates so Tony's kind of disgusted about this cuz he like I mean I'm a freak but I ain't that type of freak and Tony puts Herb's hands around his neck to pretend to be into it so herb puts a a hose around Tony's neck and he was trying to see if he was actually into sexual ex fixation well he fell unconscious and fell into the water and said that he got an intense feeling from The Experience he then this is what that's what herb said after he had his experience cuz he did it first to Herb and then herb did it to him so then he you know um herb Falls unconscious into the water and says that he got this intens you know experience and had this great feeling and then basically told Tony that he should try it so Tony went ahead and he did it again Tony is a bombass friend I'm like damn you actually putting yourself in your friend's shoes right now by doing this so Tony did it and while doing it Tony started to panic because he was like oh my God I think he is going to kill me and he said this is what herb said what got him off was the eyes bulging and the lips swelling to the point of cracking so Tony said he would go to the police he was like I'm going to the [ __ ] police and Herb was like yeah no one's going to believe you he's like nobody's going to believe you and it's that typical thing right where like if it's a if it's supposed to be a person who is like an upstanding citizen in society versus like you know you got this gay guy who in this You Know Rich Republican's house that privilege always comes out like yeah who's going to believe you nobody's going to believe you you're just like a you're just like this gay you know flamboyant bar hopping you know what I mean and they are On The Fringe so who's going to believe them so Tony he kind of chastises herb for almost killing him he's like you [ __ ] almost killed me and so Tony asks him he was like oh is this how you killed Roger which I'm like damn Tony damn that's ganga that's ganga I mean he had to have known like if this dude attacks me I can overtake him cuz he wasn't concerned at this point I think he was more so just like really trying to figure out what was happening to his friend and in a way he was like sacrificing himself which is very honorable honestly and so Brian mentioned to Tony that you know some of the murders you know some of the times he did this maybe they were accidents maybe there were some mishaps maybe there were some bad nights so now herb is like in this coke induced coma and her passes out which I'm kind of like yeah he getting he's getting sloppy you don't pass out with some strange person in your house it's like and you just tried to kill them so while herb is out tell Tony searches the house and he sees like toys and clothes and all types of stuff and he could tell that this was not the house of a stranger that this was the house of quote unquote Brian but he was also sure that his name was fake I mean this dude's instinct is crazy he was like you know what I'm going to try to find a wallet so he's going to through his house he's trying to find his wallet he comes back to the pool area he goes through Brian's [ __ ] Brian is like still asleep and then finally Brian Brian wakes up and catches him and is like oh what are you trying to steal from me or some [ __ ] and then he convinces her to let him leave which I'm like whoa you have a guardian angel he literally lets him leave and so herb says you know you're an absolute sport we should make arrangements to meet again let's let's kick it on Wednesday at the 501 Club like he's like pencil me in let's let's hang out this has been fun now it is also likely that herb didn't mean to kill the first few people but the intensity you know would kind of increase with every encounter and he likely escalated from trying to get close to death to finally getting gratifi gratification from death itself so that's that's kind of it could have I don't know if it was the goal it wasn't the goal immediately because there's even an instance where he kills a boy on one of his business trips and you know he's getting everything he wanted but like I said he wants him so desperately to be quiet that I think he held on for too long and then he realized oh [ __ ] that's what I like you know what I mean so yeah the the graic ation wasn't really even just the Strangling it was the actual death so Tony after this experience went straight to the police then he went to the FBI now this is how he got to Virgil's office because the pi which is Virgil the private investigator he has the details he can have the conversation when Mary can't so you know he's talking to Tony but Tony doesn't know exactly where the house was so then the private investigator who's kind of has a more reputable um what is the what's the word I'm looking for God what word am I looking for reputation Jesus Christ oh God the who likely has a more reputable you know uh reputation can contact the police and get Mary Wilson back back involved so that's what he did and they could tell what county because they were like eh you know the the Tony dude said that there was a sign in the yard that had farms in the name and so Mary takes Tony back to you know just around to find the house because you know they figured that if it was rich It could only really be Westfield or carel county in Hamilton County and so they couldn't find the house so Vandergriff now he knew that the house the houses over there look like every other house um but so he set up a Rendevous with herb and Mary and Virgil posted their men outside of the gay clubs but herb never showed up now Mary Wilson is with the police department she's used to dealing in sex crimes and she's used to doing you know she knew profiles for sex criminals so she is actually not an idiot um she had her men survey the gay bars and they were trying to find herb so they can get a plate so at the same time in 1995 Herb's son was on a walk with his friend in the woods and found a bunch of human bones and when his father confronted him about it he said I'm sorry when his wife confronted him about them he said that they were his father's old anatomic IAL bones cuz you know his father was an anesthesiologist he goes through this whole thing talking about what do you mean these are those were his bones I was just getting rid of them and I decided to bury him in the backyard and she didn't question him any further now she believes his excuse and she doesn't contact the authorities now when the police were cut off from the case Virgil took the lead and spent his own money in time to find out who was killing these men and sometimes they would use alternative methods like psychics and hypnotists and they were determined to find Brian Smart I mean Tony and Connie her name is Connie Pierce she was actually the a woman who was working with Virgil she would become really close with t Tony and she introduced him to a psychic named Wanda who shed light on the whole house of mannequins experience now the psychic said that she could see a man tied on a bed handcuffed and spread eagle eagled and starting to get his photo taken while he's being strangled his tongue is swollen and purple and hanging out of his mouth and his eyes oh Tony you must never go back that is a hell house so Virgil was skeptical but his intuition told him to keep looking he was like okay she may have overdid it but I'mma keep looking so Vander Griff who is Virgil reaches out to Bill hillsley he's one of his investigators he was a former straight uh state trooper he was retired but he knows the roads very very well and he was assigned to search the county suburbs he finds Fox Hollow Farms he started illegally searching his property though and he took pictures of the house now it fits Tony's description they found from public records that it belonged to a family by the name of bow meister and they took a aerial shots of the house but the informant didn't think that that was the property and by informant I mean Tony Tony didn't think that was the property at first so at this time simultaneously herb is a drunken [ __ ] mess I mean he turned into a complete hoarder his business is absolutely failing he's become completely paranoid he's blaming his staff for stealing [ __ ] um the charity withw is talking about withdrawing their license and herb is like on the verge of L losing the stores because the charity owns the stock so he would like start to show up to work work drunk and he would harass the co-workers and then he would yell at them for being incompetent and then he would want you know to be treated like a king and then he would leave for long periods of times I mean he really demanded an unfair amount of tention all of of attention all the time he would fire people randomly I mean you could tell that he knew that his time was coming to an end so save a lie would have to close I mean his only success was that he was a killer now that night he headed into town to hook up with someone and he needed to he he I just personally think he needed somebody to kill so Brian finally went back to the bar I'm saying Brian he's herb but you know Brian and Tony spotted him Tony then had a friend follow him outside and write down his plate I mean Tony is a different type of friend he's a joy he is a national [ __ ] treasure because he went to the police with the plate and they were able to track the registration to Herb bow Meister now for Virgil this is more than enough he's like we've connected the property to a bow meister and then we're connecting this plate based on an eyewitness account to the same person this can't get any better but then Mary needed more so it took three months months of background checks before they confronted herb and they confronted him at the saveal lot store they were just com you know just questioning him about the missing man she had asked him directly she was like did you murder Tony Harris Johnny Bear Alan brousard Roger goodlet Jeff Jones did you do did you do any of that and he like vem denies it um now he knew he was being watched police said that he was mad nervous and he denied being in the gay bars and felt uncomfortable about his car being spotted there because he said that his family did not know that he frequented the bars and he definitely told them that they could [ __ ] off and he was not going to let them search his property so herb calls juwes Jews like she my friend herb calls Julie immediately and he tried to tell Julie that he was being accused of being a thief and she should not tell them that they should that they can search the property so at this point herb had left the house cuz they had like a little apartment area like a little apartment house on the property herb was kind of living in that little apartment house so he wasn't even in the house they were basically separated at this point and the business wasn't doing good they were running out of money he was becoming even more erratic he was mad paranoid and so he ends up like abruptly Closing one of the stores now her was right to call Julie because they definitely decided to ask the wife so they told the wife that they were investigating her husband for homosexual homicide and Julie drew a blank quote she said quote you can Define homosexuality you can Define homicide how do you define them together I was like wow that's deep you like I got both these words I know what they mean separately but I don't want to know what they mean together that's just so crazy to me now she said that you know he never did anything in their relationship that would be considered violent I mean she would even she in her later interview she said she just wanted them to leave so she could cry she's like she just wanted to cry and I think a lot of that is because too she [ __ ] knew that this [ __ ] was going on in a way she knew that some of this some the bones that her son found she knew that slowly but surely all the pieces of the jigsaw P puzzle was creating a full picture and she did not like what the [ __ ] she was saying and you know even though he was never violent to her she said even in that call that he was just the meanest that he had ever been to her and she went ahead and she told him they could um they would they would need to get a search warrant and so what they did they got an aerial scan of the property instead to try to see if they could like pick up any heat from like any decaying bodies using infrared and the search was inconclusive but they were very eager now to get on the property more than ever and that was you know that was also the point where Mary knew that Julie was going to break she's like yeah she looked like she been through some [ __ ] she's going to come around so herb was not dealing with his paranormal well and the CH Children's Bureau they canceled their contracts with Save A Lot and that was in May 1996 he got worse the marriage just had to [ __ ] end because he was just spiraling he wasn't getting better it was really really just getting pathetic and so they divorced each other now Julie didn't feel like he had been loyal duh and she decided to just flat out tell Mary about the bones she was like look a woman's scorn right Julie had asked him herb to visit his mother you know you're a little paranoid you should go visit your mother and that day he left so Julie filed for divorce and since you know to me since y ain't had sex six time 25 years you probably already had the Papers written up she was like I'm just just waiting for the moment to execute because she literally filed for the divorce the day he left now she hung on this relationship merely for the security she liked her life she liked being able to go to the summer house she liked taking her care of her kids she liked the houses she liked all of that but the problem was her husband so when she calls Mary Wilson in the beginning she's like giving them a little little push back and she blames them for ruining her marriage she's like you [ __ ] have ruined my marriage which I'm like no your marriage was ruined before you got married like it was gone now she would eventually tell Mar the bones her her son found in the backyard and she would eventually give them permission to search the the property now the [ __ ] up part is that originally the police didn't want to help because they were Rich you know police walked that fine line of like of like white superiority and like you know uh poor Blue Collar Behavior you know where they can have like certain attitudes about like rich people and wanting to help rich people because of their situations because of how much they get paid because of their relationships with the Union because of the politics you know what I mean it just spirals but they also claim that there wasn't a lot of work there wasn't a lot of work to work with they're like there isn't a lot here but so since Hamilton County wouldn't cooperate it would take six months to get in her backyard and that is also probably because this was a gay crime you know I think too you when you got gay men gay prostitutes you know a man killing gay men they just going to look at it the wrong way and when they finally got permission from Julie they found all sorts of [ __ ] they they found bones some were bone uh burned um and they were everywhere the intact bones were uh by the stream and the forensic Pathologists um discovered quote they're human they're recent and they've been burned now they were able to identify four of the missing men Roger goodlet Steven hail Manuel rendez and Richard Hamilton when they found even more bones they were so so many that the investigator said quote it was like there was an explosion at a people Factory which I'm like God damn if that's not a description I don't know what is it took them three days to find everything and they could see where he had burned some of them under piles of leaves and garbage so they then searched the house and that's where they found the mannequins by the pool as well as the semihidden video cameras but they didn't find any tape which corroborates the story of Tony so while all of this is going on herb takes his son to Lake wa SE where he was supposed to have taken him to school I wonder if he was going to take him and kind of like hold him as hostage because he knew that would likely stall [ __ ] if he held his son his son as you know as hostage like they won't light up his his house or his apartment if they find out he killed all these people um with his son on but this is while they are searching his home so Julie is desperate she's like oh my God I need my son back I am worried his mental he his mental well-being I I'm not sure of it I don't know what he's going to do to my son so I need you all to go to him where he is at Lake waasi and go get my son stupidly the police went to go get the son but left her bow Meister there at the lake they didn't arrest him they didn't ask him any questions even though they had just found all these bone fragments on his property they left him alone at the lake now they claimed they couldn't take the opportunity to arrest him because it was out of their jurisdiction and it was up to Hamilton County and they didn't question him and claimed that they didn't want to affect the investigation by prematurely asking him questions that could mess up the case part of me understands that but can you really mess up the case when this is open and shut he literally got bones in his backyard now they just left him to do whatever he wanted and so herb didn't know what was happening at his house and thought it was because of their divorce he thought that cuz they kind of presented it like you know because of the divorce proceeding part of her divorce decree is that boom we need to get the sun back and blah blah blah so he's like pissed because he's like it's [ __ ] [ __ ] she did this blah blah blah thinking it's divorce related not knowing she they found all the bodies so herb tells his mother that he needs to go back to the city to follow up with the divorce process and he leaves but he's never seen by his family again now his brother Brad he called in and said that herb called from Michigan saying that he was on a business trip and needed money he needed money quickly he needed $5,000 he gave it to him but heard about what he did and called the authorities herb then went to Port hon and called Brad again to ask for more money at this point herb was in Canada he made it all the way to Ontario and he shot himself in the head mhm yes July 3rd 1996 at the peny Provincial Park in Grand Bill Grand Bill Grand B onario in Canada he shot himself in the [ __ ] head there is nothing more unfulfilling than having all these details and no one to confirm them even when it's a lie you know it's like with HH Holmes you know episodes one through three if you haven't listened to him with HH Holmes what was fascinating about him is that even even he had enough balls to not kill himself so we he could tell us a bunch of [ __ ] lies but this dude was so into himself that that he just knew he could he was such a coward he knew he could never stand up to the level of scrutiny that he was going to receive after they found out everything that he did now on the 4th of July he died on July 3rd on the 4th of July the next day Julie's attorney came to her and said that herb had committed suicide in Canada by shooting himself he left a long ra rambling note about like everything but never mentioned anything about the murders talked about his is all this other [ __ ] and blaming people and you know the usual you know last word and his last words were I'm going to go eat a peanut butter sandwich and go to sleep those were his last words and to this day they haven't found all the remains now neighbors said they found more bones next door in a drainage ditch that separated the two properties and they found even more bones beer cans and handcuffs because what was also determined was that a lot of children were seeing the bones and they were seeing their bones in a creek and it's likely that when he was laying the bodies out in the forest cuz some were buried and some were just laid out there like the person had just gone asleep and died a lot of the animals would take away pieces of the carcass so they would drag them to the creek to eat them or whatever and then they'd end up in the water so the bones are just scattered all over the property now now the night before his death before Herb's death he was pulled over for sleeping in his car and the trooper asked him why he was sleeping in his car cuz he was under a bridge he was like what the [ __ ] are you doing and he told him he was traveling and he pulled over the rest so she said that she saw a luggage and a pile of video tapes in his back seat these could be the murder tapes because they were never discovered they were never found he had apparently passed many bodies of water on the way so there's no guarantee that um those tapes will ever be found now he left more than enough evidence behind though there were they were able to track his steps from credit card receipts they were able to connect his timeline with other crimes and by the time bow Meister commits suicide they would be able to retrace his steps because their own they would have to retrace him his godamn they must retrace his steps because the only suspect they have is dead but they still got to answer questions they still got all these missing bodies they still got all these body bodies and then they also have these missing suspects so they go back to the Gabe clubs they then find out from all of these different people that they that he was living this double life you know he would leave home he would not come back from one or two days he was just cruising now the conservative side of Indiana just kept calling him a businessman ignoring the fact that he was an absolute pervert and instead they spun the media to show that some of the men he he had engaged with engaged in prostitution so of course it's easy to diminish the victim it's just [ __ ] they do it to women all the time so the gay community wasn't okay with this and they were not happy that they were being like making it seem like these men were asking for it you know that whole like high-risk lifestyle type of [ __ ] now the families were upset with Julie they were upset because she had not reported the bones sooner Julie said that she had gone back to find the bones but they were already gone and it's likely because she confronted herb and her herb disposed of them so she just said after that she forgot about them you you got a whole man laid out in your [ __ ] Woods whole skeletal structure hanging out in the [ __ ] woods and you forgot about him I what the you're it makes sense why y'all got along y' both [ __ ] crazy how did you forget about them how was that something that you forget that's not like walking into a room and being like damn what I come here for uh oh yeah I was looking for my cell phone that's not what that is okay you don't ever forget about your child finding bones in your backyard a whole human skeletal structure in your backyard this is why not everybody need to have kids I swear so I feel like when people find out they're pregnant the government should do a psych evaluation and if they find out that you are are nuts you should not be allowed to procreate that sounds terrible I'm sorry but come on like some people just shouldn't have no more for kids cuz this is just like wow you have a whole son that had this experience and you're just like I don't know just forgot about it like it's insane to me so by 1995 in November Herb's death um or 1996 sorry 1996 and November after Herb's death any man that died is not only Herb's fault but also Julie's I'm sorry November 1995 because that was when the boy found the bones sorry correction anybody after the boy finding the bones is kind of Julie's fault too and there were two in par particular there was Michael ke and there was Jerry Williams comr and they went missing after Julie discovered cover the bones now it is possible that Julie didn't know about any about anything like you know what I mean like it's sure sure but I also understand mob women do it all the time [ __ ] that date drug dealers sometimes do it people who who know that their husbands engag in criminal activity tend to not ask questions because they know possible deniability I don't know so when I'm at asked I can't answer now it is also scientifically proven that he was dumping the bones closer and closer to the home because he was getting more arrogant and he had a high success rate in what he was doing so he was just becoming more a little more sloppy he thought he had better more control of the situation than he actually did now it was also later determined herb mentioned to Tony's name to his wife and said that she should be afraid of him and it was likely he was trying to like sprinkle those bread crumbs to insinuate that Mark was a bad per I said Mark Tony was a bad person so if questions of Tony came around they would have a negative opinion of him so he was just trying to cast suspicion on Tony and could legitimately tie him because you know cuz Tony could legitimately tie him to the missing man so it makes sense that Tony the kind of The One That Got Away would be the one that he would tell his wife like if you see him he's a bad man just Avid him don't talk to him and he's you know what I mean so that makes sense he was trying to cover his ass now I was also determined that it's possible that herb killed his own brother he had a brother by the name of Richard who lived in Texas at this time he was not in Indianapolis and he frequented the freeway that led to his brother's home you want to know how his brother died he was strangled to Death In His jacuzzi with a pool hose so that ends this episode of I swear to tr I God I will say this though what happened to Fox Hollow Farms a family would later move into the home and have a ridiculous amount of paranormal experiences and they would find more and more bones on the property some were parts of the Vic that were discovered and others were likely parts of new bodies but we going to talk about that in episode 2 so oh my god did you have a good time was this wonderful I really hope this all makes sense when I listen to it but this is I swear to drunk I'm not God and you just listen to the Fox Hollow Farm murders um her bow me is insane and how I heard about this story is because one of the producers on my show uh AC actually knew Eric um her bow me's son and he did not know him well but he was able to share this with me and I researched it to death but he had told me that um he had actually camped out before in her bow meister's backyard so as I was reading it was also very um alarming to hear that one of the reasons why children were never allowed in the house they well was because of all the mannequins and all the packrat [ __ ] but like it kind of definitely made it real when I'm like [ __ ] reading the book and the book is like oh yeah and even when the children would have friends over they were only allowed in the backyard I was like that's interesting that they're only allowed in the backyard when that's where the bones are hm did he want to get caught cuz I mean he did but it's just kind of weird so I hope you come back next time I'm going to be talking about um the Fox Hollow Farm hauntings in part two so this is a little bit of a hybrid episode and I hope you really really enjoyed it I'm Brit I just realized that I never really tell you all my name but whatever none of us are perfect um yeah so I hope you you come back and I hope you kind of enjoyed this it was weird and uh see you on part two y'all we going to talk about some spooky [ __ ] all right bye [Music] all [Music]