KSL @ Night — June 11th, 2024

B per gallon here's Ricky me we have all lanes open once again southbound I15 southbound I 215s West belt at this is prior to California Avenue where a crash had blocked a multiple Lanes there we still have backups to about 12th North delays linger south bound ey 15 13 South to 2100 South and from Murray through Draper mark it is still been pretty rough Redwood Road SP all afternoon Bluffdale the struggles down to 2100 North Lehigh it's also been very heavy on I15 and Utah County struggling Lehigh Main Street to Geneva Road and it's not as heavy but still slow Oram eighth north of fifth East American Fork Ste left over Del lays on northbound 15 between Salt Lake and the north interchange and at Davis County both ways between Sunset and Riverdale Del lays on northbound 25s West belt from 9 South up to North Temple get your lawn off to a good start with revive organic soil treatment greener grass using less water spread or spray revive organic soil Treatment available at your favorite Garden Center or revive.com Steve Carlson in the KSL traffic center 68° overnight for tomorrow 99 maybe 100 pretty sure it's going to be triple digits on Thursday before it cools off for Father's Day weekend KSL FM Midville KSL Salt Lake City from the KSL common Spirit Health Studios this is KSL News radio Utah's News traffic and weather station good evening 6:00 at KSL I'm Jeff kapl 90° our top story we're counting down to this gubinatorial debate Spencer Cox against Phil linman some expect a fiery standoff the KSL at night co-host and political consultant Taylor Morgan says he's not so sure things will get ugly but I do expect uh Phil Lyman to take every possible shot at incumbent Governor Spencer Cox in this debate tonight tonight because we know that representative Phil Lyman who represents Southeastern Utah from Blanding Utah we know that he is way way behind in the polls he's sitting at just about 25% in the Republican primary Taylor says on the other end of things he believes Governor Cox will try and take the high road so let's go live to the University of Utah for tonight's gubinatorial debate on KSL News radio from the campus of the University of Utah in Salt Lake City the Utah debate commission welcomes you to the gubinatorial Republican primary candidate [Music] debate good evening and welcome to tonight's debate with Republican primary candidates running to be Utah's Governor I'm Carol line Ballard of KU NPR Utah it's my pleasure to moderate tonight's discussion sponsored by the Utah debate commission an organization dedicated to educating voters and encouraging the Civil exchange of ideas the candidates are Spencer Cox and Phil Lyman if you are watching or listening live you're welcome to send your reactions and questions on social media to the hashtag UT debates the format the format for this debate is as follows each candidate will have have a predetermined time to respond to the questions and on occasion there will be rebuttal time a random drawing held prior to the debate determined that candidate Lyman will get the initial response to the first question will then alternate turns on the remaining questions throughout the debate all right let's get started and opening with this first question uh as predetermined will go to Mr Lyman so starting us off what is it about you specifically that makes you the best person for this job thank you Carolyn and it's good to be here tonight um you know Thomas Soul said if you want to help people tell them the truth if you want to help yourself tell them what they want to hear and I've kind of taking that in my CPA firm as a mantra um to do people want the the comforting myth or the or the harsh reality and I'm willing to tell people the harsh reality that's that's kind of what I what I um what I do and in Utah we've got some harsh realities that we need to face uh there's a lot of collusion a lot of corruption that takes place in in the policymaking of Utah um uh these things that I've observed both at the county level uh it's at the federal level and at the state level those things uh lead to bad policies that make that that actually end up hurting people's lives uh and I feel like we're at at a point that it could be become a crisis and that the the good news of that is that there is a cure and the Cure is that people have a chance to vote they have chance to vote for for a governor and and lieutenant governor that will tell them the truth and the harsh reality thank you Mr Cox well ladies and gentlemen um it's an honor to be here with you tonight uh as a kid who grew up in the small town of Fairview in s County on a tractor I I never thought I would get an opportunity to serve in this position they just don't let kids from sampi County do stuff like this it's been an honor to serve as your Governor over the past four years as lieutenant governor before that for seven and a half years I I'm so proud of what we've been able to accomplish over these past four years we passed the largest tax cuts in our state history times five we uh we gave the largest raises to our teachers in our state's history making us for the first time ever starting salaries in the top 10 people told me that would never be able to happen and we gave parents more school choice we've also protected life in our state the life of The Unborn and uh we're holding social media companies accountable and empowering parents there are so many other things we we've been able to accomplish I'm so proud of Utah I've never been more optimistic about who we are and what we can accomplish when we work together housing affordability is a high priority for Utah especially after reports comparing median housing prices and wages estimate that Utah is one of the most expensive states in the nation if elected what would you do to make housing more affordable in our state this question is for Mr Cox yeah so look this is the single most important in our issue in our state right now there is uh there there is nothing that will hurt our state more in the future if our kids and grandkids can't afford to live here and that's why I don't need to tell you what what I will can do I'll tell you what we've already done this past session we worked tirelessly with legislators to pass the most comprehensive housing reform in the United States every state is looking at what's happening in Utah we have to build 35,000 starter homes in this state we we have to make sure that our kids can own real property again that is the American dream so we are working with developers right now um they're going to be able to uh to get loans we're working with them to to build these starter homes these are homes under $300,000 that's where we're headed that's what we're going to do look this is a problem across the United States it's a problem in every state it's a problem in the developed World Canada the UK everyone is struggling only Utah has the solutions and you're going to see these homes start being built starting in just a few months Mr Lyman same question if elected what would you do to make housing more affordable well this is the comforting myth that we like to tell ourselves that is the government is going to fix this problem the truth is that free free market principles are going to fix this problem we have land in Utah senator Lee has got a houses act that will that will transfer some of that public land that makes sense make it available to young people who want to build a house who who can't afford a house yeah a median house price of $546,000 there is no way that young kids coming out of college can afford to have a house uh on a single family income or even on a double family income we've got to do something uh to to to address the regulation costs right now if you want to build a a single family home it's almost impossible because all of the incentive is to build highdensity housing in population areas that are already densely populated or to build uh commercial buildings or to go and build um large mansions for people who can afford to pay for those um it's the small people that are getting left out it's the it's the average homeowner that's getting left out and that's because of of the policies that we've put in place and throwing money at it is not going to fix the problem Utah continues to grow rapidly it's also one of the driest states in the country what can the state do to guarantee sufficient water supplies for people moving here now and for future Generations Mr Lyman yeah we do live in a desert and so we're always cognizant of the water that we're using we recognize that it's limited resource uh we have about 60 million acre feet of water that fall on the state of Utah we divert about 6 million feet of that so A small percentage of that gets diverted into our reservoirs and our pipelines um uh infrastructure is needed we can we can divert more of that if we had the the resources to do it a healthy Forest um generates more water than an unhealthy forest all of these things we run into are roadblocks the federal government puts in our way because we can't we can't go on the forest to to clean up the forest we can't uh build the pipelines and the reservoirs that we need to supply that additional water so instead we go and we start spending more tax May pay money to uh buy up the water shares of alfalfa Farmers denigrating our our our Alfalfa farmers and when what we should be doing is improving our forest improving the water supply improving our infrastructure that delivers that water to the people in Utah that's the solution that we've got that's the solution that is going to fix this problem Mr Cox yeah look this is one of the issues we are a fast growing State because we have kids and Grand kids and they need to be able to live here I'm so proud of what we've done with water over the past couple years um we have changed over 180 years of water law in our state and we are protecting our a community $250 million in investment in a optimization so that our farmers can continue to grow more food with less water that's freeing up water for for development for our kids and grandkids so that they can live here I'm proud of how utans have responded there's been a a a true SE change in uh in the way we are approaching water people understand that we do live in a desert they're changing their habits one one of the most incredible things happened Caroline I have to share this with the people um last year we had the greatest water year in our state's history and every single expert told me that water usage would go up in a wet year as it always had has and it did not for the first time in our state's history in a wet year water usage stayed flat because we are changing it over $1 billion in investment from the legisl over the past 2 years in water conservation we are surviving in this desert Mr Cox we should move on with the do's case the US Supreme Court returned the regulation of abortion to the states we've seen a wide range of new laws Nationwide and that's caused some concern for Republican voters do you believe States should control abortion laws and what should Utah's laws be Mr Cox well Utah's laws should be exactly what they are um we we've been working on this for years in anticipation that finally the Supreme Court would do the right thing this is something that should have happened 40 years ago roie Wade was wrongly decided and it took that it took that issue away from the states which is is why it has become so polarizing over the past 40 years if you look at places like Europe and others they've been able to figure this out without the animosity finally finally we have a supreme court that did the right thing in returning this to the states and we have worked very closely with the legislature to implement uh again we're we're protecting life Implement new laws that will protect life in our state now there is a lawsuit going forward we feel confident that we're going to win that lawsuit but we've already taken care of this so this is what states are supposed to do the federal government is way too involved in major decisions this is one that should be left to the states and I'm really proud about Utah solution Mr Lyman same question would you like me to repeat the question no that's okay um so the legislature has been very active in this I'm in the legislature currently in my sixth year there and we saw this uh opport Unity to send a strong message uh to the Supreme Court uh Supreme Court by the way that had that was that was well positioned because of the appointments that were made by President Trump and we and we felt that this was going to be a decision that came through so we passed legislation that made Utah uh a state that would that would not have uh abortion when this when this bill came through um by the same token the people of Utah the people of the United States they're the ones that were responsible for getting uh roie Wade overturned because they recognized and they they appealed to to heaven and they appealed to their legislators to to stop the slaughter of our innocent of our innocent children and this is important if we have if we believe in the sanctity of life life then we do more than just write strongly worded letters we stand up we go to we go to B for these things honest people have rights too and no place is that more important than in the lives of The Unborn people and I'm so proud of my my colleagues in the legislator legislature and and the other people in the state that value that so so dearly this next question is a video question from a political science major at Weber State University let's see that hello my name is brexton alesi Lee I am a political science major at weer State University and my question is about the nationalization of our state legislature as the political climate in our country has become more polarized over the past decade it seems as though an increasing number of the laws that come out of our state legislature are more focused on the national conversation while neglecting to address the issues at the state and local level as a student I was shocked to find out that many of the laws impacting education that came out of this year session were based on model legislation that was not even written in our state while these laws Garner made headlines they do little to address the needs of Working Families like my own if elected how would you address this issue and what would you do to encourage the state legislature to get back to addressing state and local issues unique to Utah Mr Lyman first response to you uh brexton that's a great question and it's it's actually near and dear to my heart because what I've seen in the legislature is legislation that's coming from the top down it's not supposed to happen that way it's supposed to come from the bottom up we're elected as representatives of 45,000 46,000 people in the house of represent Representatives we bring that legislation things that are important to our constituents and to our districts and we bring that to the legislature we argue those things we present those bills what we've seen this these last few years is a extremely uh topown approach to legislation things that are coming from we don't know where but they come through the governor's office through the uoc the unified Economic Opportunity commission created to work with with the stakeholders and the speaker and the president of the Senate and the governor and and then we show up to committees and these bills are presented to us as if they are must pass bills uh and they don't address local issues they're they're they're coming down from sometimes from outside the the country from the from the world economic Forum or from the United Nations or from other think tanks that are National or International uh that's not the way we do legislation and you thought it should be from the bottom up and that's and parents have to be involved in these decisions on education Mr Cox sure yeah so look we um have an amazing legislature and I'm so fortunate that I get to work with them every day I yes there are probably few bills that come through um some of these National organizations uh model bills that's been true forever that's what we do we still ideas from other states when somebody has a good idea we take those ideas that's that's the laboratory of democracy that we're supposed to be um I can tell you that far too many people the problem is that people don't pay enough attention to what the legislature is doing um about 590 bills were passed last legislative session which I think are too many uh nevertheless the vast majority of those bills well over 80% and close to 90% % we're unanimous or near unanimous and and dealing with very hyper local issues I would encourage you to actually go look at all 590 of those bills and what you'll see is that yes there are 10 or 20 of them that get a lot of national attention and get people fired up and those are the ones the media covers but that is not the legislature there is so much more happening at the local level the Utah fits-all scholarship provides vouchers for home or private schooling the teacher Union the Utah Education Association contends in a lawsuit that the scholarship violates the Utah Constitution's requirement that education be free and open to all do you believe the Utah fits-all program needs modification why or why not Mr Cox yeah I I don't believe it needs modification and I think that lawsuit is going to fail look this was one of the most important bills we've passed in our state's history it did two things um the first thing it did was to give the largest raises to our teachers in our state's history it also brought again Utah starting teacher salaries into the top 10 in the United States I was told when I made that a goal as when I became Governor that there was no way that that would ever happen we now have a starting salary uh that is greater in Utah than all of our surrounding states and that's something I'm very proud of the second thing that it did was to provide more school choice for those students who need it sadly uh Private School uh other options have only been the perview of the wealthiest in our state what we did was set aside a very very small portion of the overall funding for education in our state to help those families who need other options families who are struggling kids who are struggling kids who are being bullied kids who who need special access that they just can't get otherwise we were able to do both of those things and it's something every Utah should be proud of Mr Lyman do you believe the Utah fits-all program needs modification there are probably some tweaks that need to happen to Utah fits all but it's a good program the idea being that the Money Follows the student so if the if the parents want to pull their their children out of a public school and put them in a charter school or homeschool them then they will keep the money themselves and it was a small it was a small amount of of uh money that was earmarked for that um the one thing that uh I'd like to see more on that is more autonomy with these parents and more involvement with their Public Schools it's a sad commentary in our system in our state school board and our our 42 school school districts and school boards there's a little bit of a regiment that's that's taken place there where where people are are uh coerced to stay in line and to stay uh in line with the with the with the school board and with the agenda um if we could push that power back to the parents back to those local community school councils the parent counsels for each of those schools I think instead of having parents pulling their kids out of school taking that money with them they would be saying we want to keep our kids in the public schools my children are a product of public schools we loved it and we would love to see more parental involvement and more kids staying in the public school system for our next question we have another video question from a political science major at Utah State University here's that question my name is Bruce I'm a political science major at Utah State University thanks for taking my question I wonder what you think about mandating more serious and nuanced study of government in our high schools and at our universities since that seems to me like really striking at the heart of our problem we need citizens who can engage responsibly and effectively with government Mr Lyman well thanks Bruce um and that is an interesting question uh when we start to tell the schools what they need to teach and what the curriculum needs to be uh we start to we start to walk a fine line I go back to these parental councils uh to say what what what is it that you want in your schools what would you like to have these students taught Todd yes students should understand what it means to be American one of the things it means to be American is that we are free to think I'm free to do these things I'm not a big fan of mandating a lot of things on teachers I'm not a a fan of mandating a lot of things on schools I am a fan of parents being involved I'm a fan of of teachers listening to their students drawing out from those students who they are as an individual letting them Express themselves in a in a way that that that is fulfilling to them and and let them know that in this world in this especially in this country you have freedoms and that if we teach the kids that if we teach them about that is what the Constitution teaches and if so if we teach them number one that they are are free in America I think that they would start naturally to learn about the Constitution learn about the Declaration of Independence learn about these things and take a big interest in what makes this country so great Mr Cox yeah Bruce thank you for that question and go agies it's it's nice to see a fellow agie asking a really important question um first of all I I want to give a shout out to our Public Schools I'm so proud of our Public Schools my my kids too uh are are um products of our Public Schools we have some of the best teachers in in the world right here in the state of Utah and and the answer to your question is absolutely yes yes we do need more civic education taught in our high schools our middle middle schools our elementary schools we do need uh we do need the next generation of Americans to understand who we are as a country and why we are as a country we need them to understand the founding documents of this country uh including the Declaration of of Independence and this idea that uh that that our freedoms that are these rights these god-given rights don't again they don't come from a king they don't come from government they come from on high and uh and it's government's job to protect them and among those are life liberty and the pursuit of happiness and and those are the the values that our kids need to learn so that they can make proper choices so that they can lead us as we as we move forward as a country I'm desperately worried about what's happening on college campuses we need better civic education Mr Cox let's move on the international Olympic Committee is expected to make make its final vote in July on whether Salt Lake City hosts the 2034 Winter Games yesterday organizers released their first budget estimates for those games total projected costs are just under $4 billion but Olympics frequently go over budget if the games do return what should Utah's financial responsibility be to host the Winter Olympics and Mr Cox yeah this is a this is the easiest question we'll get all night um Utah's financial responsibility should be zero and it will be zero that's the best part about the Olympics coming back look you guys this is incredible an incredible opportunity for our state the second time we hosted the Olympics in 20 in 2002 it was the most successful Winter Olympics in history did not go over budget in fact there was a windfall that came to the state in about of about a hundred million we very wisely took that money and invested it back into these uh into these Olympic venues so that if we had to we could host the Olympic six months from now um we are the the first state the first country in the history of the Olympics that won't have to build a single venue um all of this is going to be paid for by sponsorships it's not going to cost the tax dollars a a single penny and we should be proud of that I can't wait to represent the state of Utah in Paris on July 24th a special day for Utah when I will be there and the final vote will be taken and with any luck we'll be signing that agreement to bring the Olympics back to Utah in 2034 Mr Lyman same question so so I remember the last Olympics and the uh the Lou as they called it on on I-15 the uh the cost of infrastructure the cost of delays the cost of of congestion uh it brings a lot of people to Utah it brings a lot of people to Salt Lake City um those who are not close to the to the action tend to be able to watch from afar it goes back to a little bit of what we've what Utah has recently come out and said we have an elite economy which was which is where a few um get to participate and the rest get to be Spectators and that kind of that's kind what I see is the Olympics when I see when I talk to people out on the street um even here in Salt Lake you know do you want the Olympics and they said why why would we want the Olympics now I love the Olympics I love watching it go I know it's a huge economic driver but it is a tremendous uh cost to our to our city to our to our state and and to the people that live in Utah um I I don't believe if you took a poll in Utah that it would overwhelmingly be in favor of uh paying for and bringing the Olympics to Utah 30 besides that you've got all of the uh regulations for for climate uh agreements that that are tied to that thank you uh we have a rebuttal for Mr Cox 30 seconds yeah I I just I just have to point out we actually did take a poll it just came out yesterday and 79% of utans are excited for the Olympics to come back 79% in this day and age it is impossible to get 79% of anybody to agree on anything so so I'm not I'm not sure who my colleague is talking to but what I can tell you you is that this is by far the highest anywhere in the world uh the highest poll taken of of of a country of a state where people are excited for the Olympics to come back and it is not going to cost us anything to host those Olympics Mr Lyman 30 seconds for response you know I don't know I don't I haven't seen the poll if it's another Harris X poll another Twitter poll conducted on the waset front you might find that kind of a that kind of a response my response comes from talking to people in their neighborhoods on the street uh and and I'm not saying that the Olympics is is unpopular we all love the Olympics but to bring it to Utah to bring the Olympics to Utah again is a cost to to our to our state and to our uh to our counties and to our communities and to say otherwise is is is being disingenuous while we're on the topics of uh Sports we have a followup to that we'll go in the same order as well and this is a question from social media from Richard Olsen who says please explain your stance on providing millions of dollars to professional sports team stadiums so many of large cities have found that it doesn't give a good return on investment only benefits a very few and burdens surrounding localities with additional taxes Larry Miller built the Delta Center and I don't recall him asking the state for Millions uh Mr Cox first first answer here is same order as since it's a followup okay my apologies um yes so so look um the the the Larry H Miller group when they built the Delta Center they did very similar to what we're doing here the truth is if you live outside of this area out side of Salt Lake City you will not pay a dime for anything that's happening there all the legislature did was give Salt Lake City the opportunity to raise sales tax in Salt Lake City by um by by 0.5% that's that's all that happened for for the hockey Stadium the voters of Salt Lake the the uh the mayor the city council members they will make that decision so I believe this is the very best way it protects taxpayers um it gives us an opportunity this is a huge opportunity for the state not just from Economic Development but but an opportunity for so many people who again are excited to have the NHL here maybe Major League Baseball in the future again there's nothing happening with major league baseball right now the only thing that is is moving forward is the National Hockey League and uh and what we've done is just give authority to Salt Lake City to decide if this is what they want to do in their City Mr Lyman could you repeat that question absolutely um it was from online let me uh I think the the gist of it is professional sports Stadium should we be funding it um and if uh oh thank you thank you for for that uh please explain your stance on providing millions of dollars to professional sports team stadiums so many other large cities have found that it doesn't give a good return on investment only benefits a very few and burdens surrounding localities with additional taxes Larry Miller built the Delta Center and I don't recall him asking the state for Millions thank you sorry to make you repeat that I wasn't sure if it was specific to to hockey or or baseball but but the the the fact is that these these Investments when you when you take a billion dollars of taxpayer money and put it into a stadium um that's not the same thing as personal money that that creates an ongoing liability for the taxpayers um I love baseball I love hockey I love to see these things um you know built in our communities I'm I'm grateful for the contributions of some of our philanthropists and their and their uh Investments that they made into the community but to to uh step into that space as a legislature uh has been confusing to me I don't see it as the proper role of government uh if if Salt Lake County wants to do it then then I think the legislature should stay out of Sal Lake County's Affairs in that regard but it's not staying out of it it's coming to the legislature we're being asked to weigh in on that and the first bill that comes up is do you like baseball if so oh now the second bill that comes up is do you want to spend a billion dollars on a Major League baseball stadium and and the answer to that is not of taxpayer money and not on the uh on the basis of of what we've seen happen in other cities and other other places around the country where they are a tremendous liability we have now reached the halfway point of the debate featuring The Republican candidates for Utah's Governor once again I'm Caroline Ballard we encourage you to submit questions during this live broadcast use the hashut debates on social media now let's get back to the debate we have another question from online this comes from Rob norbut in Salt Lake City who asks what is your stance on the BLM Bureau of Land Management and US Forest Service restricting public land use in Utah what is your stance on public land use in Utah camping hunting OHV and freerange cattle use this first question goes to Mr Lyman you know when I got into the legislature a few years ago the the buzzword up there was transfer public lands transfer the the federal lands to the state ownership and I and I said well that happened that was 1896 that's what that little boundary means that defines the state of Utah Utah was given jurisdiction prior to that we were a territory we didn't even elect our own Governor um what I've seen happen is that the the the state has a level of jurisdiction that they're unwilling to assert for example on roads the state owns the roads across BLM land the state and the county 100% with no federal involvement in those roads at all yet we don't assert that and if someone does assert it they don't get the backup from the county from the state that they should have the same thing on these public lands I believe that there's a healthy tension right now we love our public land we love that in Utah when the federal government has ownership and the state has jurisdiction that creates a tension that benefits the individuals when the federal government starts to exercise too much jur jurisdiction that's a that's a problem for the individuals I think the same thing would happen if you transferred all of the ownership and jurisdiction to the state you'd start to see more of this cronyism and uh mismanagement thank you uh same question Mr Cox yeah look um the Federal Government is out of control I I think both my my opponent and and I when we ran for the legislature we ran on this issue uh of the um those of us from rural Utah understand better than anyone what the federal government is doing to limit and destroy our access to Federal lands um the the BLM the the forest service these are supposed to be managed for multiple use unfortunately they're being mismanaged roads are being closed we right now have literally thousands of lawsuits on opening roads and more to come uh more in the future as we're working with the attorney general we've sued the Biden Administration over 60 times just in the past few years um and many of those are related to our public lands and there are more of those to come as well we cannot let a federal government based in Washington D DC and that has been taken over by extreme environmentalist make decisions that are keeping us from being able to go out and camp and hike and hunt and do the things that we have done for Generations on public lands we know how to protect and manage these public lands better than anyone in this country thank you rebuttal Mr Lyman 30 seconds yeah you know suing the federal government is not a good option and this is what they've done with our roads they they close the roads and then we're expected to go and Sue until those roads are adjudicated they're off limits I passed a bill this last session that says if the if the federal government does not follow the adjudication of that road in advance then the state will consider that road open and free to the people it's an important thing because we're closing 37 miles of roads in Grand County right now hundreds of miles in cane County Enda County all over the state the state has got to step into this space and say we're just not going to do it a lawsuit is not enough we've got to say no thank you Mr Cox 30 seconds well look a lawsuit is exactly what we have to do that's where we get the adjudication and we have a supreme court that we know for the first time in a long long time is going to be much more sympathetic uh to to our pleas and and to the legal arguments that we need and this is so much bigger again than any one road um we're talking about national monuments millions of Acres that have been locked up uh to prevent Utah from using them to prevent Utah from having the opportunity now look we need to protect our our national parks those iconic places absolutely but we need to make sure that the people of Utah get access to those lands thank you as the head of Utah's executive branch to what degree should a governor employ aggressive rhetoric in pursuit of the administration's goals do policy successes outweigh preserving interpersonal niceties this goes to Mr Cox look um we several of these questions and far too often we get presented with false choices um this is one of those questions that is absolutely a false Choice look um I I'm very proud to be a conservative uton I'm proud of what we have been able to accomplish um throughout the course of our Administration but I also believe the way we do things matter and uh I'm so proud of the way we have been able to conduct ourselves the way we treat people with dignity and respect while also passing some of the most important and conservative legislation anywhere in the in the country country so being being a governor is um is a heavy weight um I I don't just represent Republicans I represent the entire State I represent everyone and uh and our state gets judged by the way that I conduct myself and so this is something that I've made very clear I'm proud to have been elected by by Republican Governors to serve as the chair of the national Governors Association working really hard to make sure that we treat even our enemies with dignity and respect but we make sure that the policy is the correct policy and often that is the very best conservative laws in the land and Utah is leading the nation Mr Lyman same question would you like me to repeat the question um if you wouldn't mind um as the head of Utah's executive branch to what degree should a governor employ aggressive rhetoric in pursuit of the administration's goals dep policy successes outweigh preserving interpersonal niceties thank you um the truth is you've got external forces who are not using Fair tactics to try to take away what belongs to Utah they're trying to lock up our energy they're trying to lock up our land they're trying to shut down our Industries they sue our counties they go after our people they raid the homes of our people they hurt people's lives and and and if we say well we should use uh polite words when we talk to these people um I'm not against polite words but there's a point where we have to use aggressive rhetoric I'm a huge fan of of of Governors who speak candidly and frankly uh Ronda Sanz comes to mind chrisy no comes to mind Utah should have a governor who stands up for the people who speaks frankly who has understood and at the end of at the end of that conversation people should know exactly where he stands on these issues um I I've I've I've looked at governors in the past in Utah I've told the federal government to back off to stand down and the and the federal government does it that's what we've got to be able to do and we've got to recognize that this is not an organic thing these these agencies these the federal government is being weaponized by people that we would never uh allow to make policy decisions for Utah how do you balance the need for immigrant labor against the need for a secure border and this first response goes to Mr Lyman yeah um the key term in illegal immigration is illegal uh there there are ways to enter this country legally I've got good friends uh who were here illegally they left the country so that they could come back in Legally because they wanted all of the Privileges all the benefits that come from being in the United States legally it may be a high hurdle to overcome and I'd love to see that hurdle reduced but it doesn't justify it doesn't justify us welcoming in illegal aliens uh and and our policies do that our policies make us a magnet for illegal immigration you can see by the numbers and not only that our policies make us a magnet for non-citizens with Criminal Intent um because of the because of the way that we treat the uh uh the uh um detention um angle of this uh we've got to take a more aggressive stance we've got to be able to to deport those people and our policies should be able to distinguish between a mother who's a refugee and a person who's here a predator with fenel dealers and somehow we seem to lump all of those together when we're talking about policy and that is not what good policy does Mr Co same question on balancing the need again this is this is one of those false choices where we have to pick one or the other that's not true at all and and I I have to say everything that that my opponent said is is absolutely true the Biden Administration has completely failed this country when it comes to the border every state is a border state right now every single state um Millions literally millions in just the past year of illegal immigrants are being bust and flown to every state in this nation we cannot long stay a nation if we can't secure our borders that has to be Paramount it's the first thing we have to do and and we have to fix legal immigration um legal immigration has been a disaster in this country and it's for we we need good people here here's one of the crazy things we do ladies and gentlemen we bring people here to our universities like this one some of the brightest people in the world phds people who are creating businesses and and people who want to be here and then we make them leave we force them to leave this country while at the same time letting in anyone and everyone criminals people who are Distributing fentanyl um so so many Bad actors are coming across that border and we have to hold this Administration accountable we have another question from social media this time from X uh Shirley Larson asks what do you think of laws that are passed that put burden on cities and counties such as laws to deal with homelessness sometimes these laws are unfunded and First Response goes to Mr Cox yeah look so I I had the opportunity to um to serve as a city council member and a mayor and a county commissioner in my small town um there there is I will admit nothing more maddening than when the uh the legislature puts unfunded mandates on our cities and towns worked really hard to try not to do that to to try to work with the legislature to prevent those types of from moving forward you just brought up homelessness specifically um this is one area where we have gotten more involved because um homelessness should not just be seen as a Salt Lake City or a Salt Lake County issue homelessness is something that affects everyone in this state um if you're homeless in Fairview where I grew up you don't stay in Fairview you end up going to Salt Lake where the resources are and so we've worked very closely again with the legislature I'm proud of what we were able to do this year um working very closely to get additional resources and funding and again holding people accountable for those additional resources but this is something where the state does have to play a bigger role same question to Mr Lyman this is one of those uh issues where uh as as a legislator it's always frustrating to see us taking a Powers away from the local governments away from the counties overstepping our bounds with them we don't like it when the federal government does it to us and counties do not like it as a county commissioner I watched the same thing happen mandates that come down from the state funded or unfunded are inappropriate what what should happen is that counties municipalities localities make the decisions that they're most affected by as soon as the legislature steps into those into that space and says well we've got the expertise to make a decision that your county or your municipality simply doesn't have the expertise to handle um what we're doing is overstepping the we're going against reality because those people understand better what's affecting their communities than the bureaucracies and the and the and the people that are making those decisions that State Legislature the policies that we have in Utah are to let counties municipalities make their own decisions and the legislature should respect that and stay out of those things and that we should be pushing more of the resources and decision-making and authority to the counties on the front end while we're talking about uh the state's role with cities and counties a follow-up question to both of you will go in the same order again what do you think of efforts by the legislature to overturn ballot measures that passed by the voters Mr C yeah sure so thank you um the ultimate according to the Constitution the ultimate Authority um when it comes to lawmaking in this state um it it ends with the legislature so yes the the the people have the ability to pass laws and they can the legislature also has the ability to amend those laws but it should only be used very rarely I I'm I I've always said that I think it's a mistake um when we overturn the will of the people um I think think uh it's a good way to get voted out of office uh I I think that that again decisions made by the people are always better and so only in the rarest of circumstances should we be overturning those and sometimes that happens sometimes a a ballot initiative passes where um there are issues with the initiative the implementation of the initiative where that can't happen um but by and large I do think it should be rare um when we have citizen L initiatives but when those initiatives pass we should try the best that we possibly can to respect the will of the people Mr lman question um citizen initiatives and referendums uh are a are a valuable part of the way we run the government they do ultimately have the authority to to do those things the legislature has stepped in in recent years making it harder for for those initiatives to pass harder for those referendums to get through uh there's a signature Gathering uh process that is onerous for those people that want to that want to gather signatures and pass a referendum and then the and then the the hurdle of clearing those signatures has been um also honorous with the with the lieutenant governor's office who councel those signatures we should make the that process more liquid more available to the people I recognize the problems that come with that those are the problems that come with liberty and I'd rather have the problems of too much uh citizen input than too little citizen input if they understand that that they can pass laws maybe the representatives would be more responsive to those uh needs of the citizens on the front end rather than forcing it into a place where they're going and getting a referendum let's move on to a new topic this year the state legislature passed sb240 this law makes elected officials calendars private not public documents do you think the governor's official calendar should be a public document this goes first to Mr Lyman that was an interesting bill and if if on the front end if you understand that that what you're putting on your calendar is public I'm all for making that public the problem with this bill is that it came in after the fact and said whatever's on calendar we want to see it um that's an invasion of a person's privacy they should at least be able to go through and say well if I'm going to turn that calendar over to the public there may be some some things on there of a personal nature that I that I would not include uh in that calendar I would I would love it in our grandma um government records uh uh requests if all of the records were available and and we're going to get to that point in the state with with AI and and the ability to to to redact records automatically to where people have so much access to the information but as far as an individual's personal life whether you're a legislator or a governor you still have a personal life and you're entitled to that privacy Mr Cox same question that's that's the right answer um look uh whether it's public or private I've always felt that my calendar should be public we've always made my calendar public and we will continue to make my my calendar public but but that's the right answer um we it was not clear um that in fact it was pretty clear that it was not a public document uh and uh and then there was a push to make those public and the legis responded accordingly so that's that's the right answer and I will I will if reelected I will continue to make my my calendar public the state of Utah passed a law this year that will force a Coal Fired power plant to stay open past the dates its company intended that company was not in favor of how the state went about this should the state government be involved in determining Private Business policy why or why not uh first to Mr Cox yeah so um yeah in General um the uh state government should not get involved in in Private Affairs uh the the creation of power and electricity in our state has always been outside of just purely Private Affairs um we do need the market to function and if it was if it was a true uh private Market I would have no problem whatsoever but that's not the case this is a this is a coal plant that is owned and operated by by mostly the the the predominant owner of this is California and California is trying to shut this down at a time when we are desperate for more power and electricity in this state we haven't even begun to see the repercussions of of what's going to happen just over the next few months and years we are not generating nearly enough power uh for for the grid we've seen brown outs in Texas we've seen brown outs in in places like California and uh Utah has historically produced more power than than we consume uh that is going to remain a challenge and so this did not force the power plant to stay open that's a mischaracterization of what the bill does it does not do that there is a process where it is possible that it will stay open but we have to go through that process Mr Lyman same question yeah we created an entity that has as much sovereignty if not more in Delta than Delta County itself and so to say that it's a private in uh company is a little bit of a n misnomer as as the governor said we have an interest in providing affordable dispatchable clean energy to the citizens of of Utah and if we if we're going to not take the uh actual public side of these companies that are that are producing this and at least instruct them on that part of it then we're we're failing in that in that responsibility now I'm all for private Enterprise I would love to see more free private companies startup in Utah oil refineries gas refineries um nuclear power plants I'd love it if if if uh Utah was a sanctuary State for the energy development and we would tell the federal government to back off on those on those plans and let us produce the energy in Utah that we need but yeah this this uh particular instance that you referring to this is not really a private uh an entirely a private company let's turn now to taxes do tax incentives for out of-state companies help or hinder instate business growth First Response Mr Lyman well um again we're talking about incentivizing companies to come to Utah uh in a in a in an economy that's already uh red hot very low unemployment uh these companies are coming to the wasach front where there where the population is dense uh it's creating the need for highdensity housing it's congesting the the roads we and we're going out of our way to give these these companies tax incentives now I like companies I like big companies but not to go out and recruit them to come to Utah if they want to come to Utah they should be coming here because we have the best Workforce in the nation because we have the best climate in the nation because we're familyfriendly all these things that that attract these companies to Utah if we have to go a step further and give them tax incentives to bring them here not only are we creating are creating the problems that we're trying to resolve in our water and our congestion but it's not fair to those companies who've already invested their time and their energy and their livelihoods to build up a company in Utah and that is not again it's not the proper role of government to pull companies into Utah same question Mr Cox yeah so sadly every state in the nation has tax incentive programs to incentivize businesses to relocate or expand um I hate it I wish every state would get rid of them but uh sadly they're not going to so we have ours ours is is the most conservative anywhere in the country and this is something I actually ran on four years ago and I'm proud that we got a bill passed that completely changed the way we do incentives in this state we're doing far fewer incentives on the wasach front than ever before because we now they actually do have to take into account how much water they're going to use how much traffic they're going to add to our roads how much housing they're going to need they have to the board has to look at all of those things before they can even offer an incentive and what we did that is even better is we changed the incentive program to do more in rural Utah where we were not seeing the growth we do want companies to relocate from the waset front or who are coming from outside the state of Utah and and have them relocate in rural Utah I'm proud to say that for the first time now more than half of any incentives that are going out are actually going to rural Utah not the wasach front that's a big change we still have further to go but we're getting closer another comment uh or question from X this comes from Michael Jolly a followup uh so 30 seconds each on this should Utah eliminate the state income tax we'll go first to Mr Lyman when uh when uh Mr Paxton was here from Texas the Attorney General I sat down to talk to him about this issue and he said Utah should consider getting rid of the income tax and I started looking at that in what in the states that do get rid of the income tax it's usually based on a production tax based on uh oil and gas or or coal uh Severance taxes and Utah has a rich abundance of um natural resour ources I believe that we are doing ourselves a disservice when we shut down our calf fire Appel plants um if we were more dependent on on on production taxes it would drive more of the legislative preference to those productive Industries thank you thank you Mr Cox yeah I I would love to be able to get rid of the income tax and and that that's exactly right in in the states that have been able to do that they've been able to do it by by putting an excise tax on on those natural resources and um the the the benefit that Texas and others have is that most of their land is private land not public land and they don't have the federal government controlling things that's where we have to push back once we we win at the Supreme Court and we we're not relying on the federal government we would be able to make that change in your view what is the maximum population our state infrastructure can support and is there a limit first response to Mr Cox uh again a false Choice um there look there is no actual limit to what infrastructure and industry and Innovation can allow in our state um I want to make sure that our kids and grandkids get to live in the best state in the nation I'm proud of what we've been able to accomplish that makes us literally the best state in the nation that's not me talking US News and World Report look at 70 different categories over 1,000 data points and for the second year in a row Utah was named the best state in the nation now I would love as I said I would love to build a wall around Utah and make California pay for it um but we can't do that so what we have to do is we have to be really smart growth is neither good nor bad um growth is neutral the way we respond and invest in infrastructure makes the difference of keeping a quality of life High making sure that we're building enough starter homes so that our kids and grandkids can live here making sure that we're being really smart about how we use our water we are doing all of those things the state of Utah has invested more in infrastructure over the past four years since I've been Governor than any state in the nation and more than any time in our state's history so that we can keep the quality of life high and keep our kids and grandkids here Mr Lyman this is a big state um mostly owned by the federal government there is space there's space to to Branch out um there are places where communities should exist I I've got a few in mind that could have that could have towns the size of paig Arizona or even St George a number of those on the southern end of the state um we owe it to the to those communities to allow them to to grow and to um evolve in their own natural organic way as soon as Government comes in and says well you can't build here because of some endangered species or because of some uh environmental hazard and you must build here because we're going to throw a bunch of money into this or we want people into these urban areas and this is what we've seen we've seen a a compaction of people into the urban areas um Utah is one of the most Urban States uh in the in the nation even though we have all of this land most of the people live in the city and we occupy one or two% of the land mass for our for our communities we could definitely expand that out uh and provide the infrastructure for for uh a lot of growth well we move now to a short answer portion uh 15 seconds for each response first question how much of the states water should go to Alfalfa production Mr Lyman um Alfalfa those Farmers that grow Alfalfa are the ones that created that water supply and we don't ship the water off when we ship off the AL Alfalfa it's dry Alfalfa anybody that's hauled hay knows that that's the case I applaud our alala farmers and the more water they're they're putting on that Al Alpa the better I say Mr Cox yeah Al Alpha is a wonderful crop for our state um it survives drought because you can dry it up so in the dry years alphalpha Farmers stop watering we cut our farm production by 75% two years ago during the driest time of our of the the year um we save water we built those Water Systems our alphalpha farmers are a godsend to the state and I'm proud to be one of them we've now reached the end of the debate a random drawing held earlier determined that the first closing statement would go to candidate Phil l and now Mr Lyman your closing statement you know I love this state I love living in Utah I love this country and I love the the the Republican form of government that was guaranteed to us by the fourth by the article by article four of the Constitution and that is a that is a government where the people are empowered the Declaration of impendent of Independence recognizes the the importance of the individual of the person uh that just by virtue of our birth we're entitled to an alienable rights of life liberty Pursuit of Happiness a state that doesn't push back against the federal government is not a state they are an administrative subunit of the federal government they don't do a service to the people they don't do a service to the United States we need strong Governors strong Governors who will push back against Federal encroachment who will recognize the the division of of uh powers between the legislative and the executive branch within the state who will recognize the importance of County government recognize the value of our sheriffs and push that Authority and all of those uh resources to the to the local level where they can do the most good that's what I that's what I have an that's what I have a vision for for Utah that's what Utah deserves and now Mr Cox your closing statement ladies and gentlemen um thank you so much for giving me and and Abby and lieutenant governor Henderson the honor of a lifetime to serve as your Governor over the uh the past four years a few weeks ago I was with one one of the most successful business people in the country and he said you know you have a built-in advantage in Utah I said well what's that and he said your people everyone I've ever met from Utah is is intelligent they work really hard they are honest they love their neighbors and their communities and uh and they care about their families we kept talking and and then he said to me you know those are Utah values but they used to be American values we need Utah's values to be American values again ladies and gentlemen we live in the greatest state in the greatest country on earth I am so proud of who we are that that is our brand when people look at Utah that is what they see our country is desperate for that kind of leadership our our country is desperate for Utah's values thank you for what you are doing to keep Utah the best state in America thank you candidates Spencer Cox and Phil Lyman for to participating tonight and for your dedication to Public Service election day is Tuesday June 25th contact your county clerk if you have any questions about making your vote count in this election we greatly appreciate PBS Utah for donating the production facilities to broadcast this debate we're also very grateful for the Larry H and Gail Miller Family Foundation Zion Bank the George S and Dolores Dory Eckles foundation and the Stewart Family Foundation for their generous support of the Utah debate commission this debate and others from previous years are available online at Utah debate Commission .org I'm Caroline Ballard thank you and good night you've been listening to the gubernatorial debate on the GOP side on KSL News radio this is Jeff Kaplan it's a debate that was interesting for himself foremost as a states rights Republican first and foremost but I'm not a political analyst I'm a news anchor for the political analysts you'll have to stay here KSL at night with Taylor Morgan and Leah Murray coming up just after the 7:00 news right here on KSL News [Music] radio email from school how about the incident today scary tell me about it did you have any idea that was going on none I mean you saw Derek at the game last night too did you have a clue no but you know teachers like mean kids half the time it's rumors it can be hard to tell sometimes but if you have a concern about a a friend who's having trouble with alcohol prescription drugs bullying violence anything you need to tell an adult mom or me a teacher coach school counselor someone you know and trust Dad no kid is going to tell an adult about that kind of stuff I get it but if we don't know we can't help speaking up about a problem that's what helping a friend is all about for more information visit underage drinking. samsa . goov Social Security is with you through life's journey from birth to retirement as your life changes year to year so do your needs for over 80 years social security has helped to meet your needs and is committed to improving access to the services that make a difference in your life today you can verify your earnings estimate your future benefits apply for retirement manage your benefits and even change your address all from the comfort of your home Social Security's online services help put you in control with secure access to your information anytime anywhere allowing you to spend more time with family friends or simply just enjoying the day Social Security securing today and tomorrow see what you can do online at Social security.gov produced at US taxpayer expense most of us like to be out on the Sun that's why sunscreen and other safety measures are key to protecting your skin from aging and cancer the FDA recommends using a 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on those natural resources continue listening for a complete breakdown of the debate tonight on KSL night coming up at 7:05 our top National story this hour from ABC News in appeals court in California has decided the state can ban gun sales on State Property California's law prohibiting the sale of guns and ammunition at places like Fairgrounds and on other state property can stay in place according to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals a three-judge panel unanimously finding California's ban is constitutional gun advocacy group said their freedom of speech and right to bear arms are being violated the court said no the Banning the sale on State Property doesn't constrain anyone's ability to keep and bear arms Alex Stone ABC News Los Angeles coming up temperatures nearing triple digits tomorrow KL weather is next KL news time 701 want to save on some of the biggest names in streaming on the network made for streaming x marks the spot now through September 21st get 150 megabit Xfinity 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special LIVE edition of KSM at night here on KSL News radio I am Taylor Morgan alongside Leah Murray and Leah we just finished watching the debate between Governor Spencer Cox and representative Phil Lyman debating in the Republican gubernatorial primary initial takeaways so before we go there can I just ask you a question because you just use the verb that we are watching this debate but many of our listeners might have listened to the debate true so Taylor one of my takeaways right off the top is I think if you listen to it you might have not gotten some of the same like non-verbal cues I've been saying this a lot that we got because we watched it and a little bit the thing that we were talking about while we were watching it is that Governor Cox looked not super confident or something right like so you feel like the polls are saying he's going to run away with this thing he's going to like just wipe the floor with Lyman this primary but he didn't look does that like it didn't feel like he knew that or something while he was on that stage well it was interesting and and I think you make a very good point here that many of our listeners of course those tuning in with us right now here on KSL News radio may have listened to debate on the radio and they may have not seen uh that Governor Cox appeared to be a little bit rushed um hushed rushed I I should say there he seemed to be uh speaking very quickly he was he was coherent Leah but listen Governor Cox is a seasoned very experienced uh politician uh he's given you know all kinds of speeches at very large events to large crowds this is something that is certainly not new to him uh and I thought he did fine right but usually when you see him it's like a master class yes and I didn't feel that kind of swagger does that make sense tonight that's exactly right and we're watching right now here in studio we're watching Governor Cox address some questions uh to the press in attendance after the debate and I'm looking at him on on the TV right now Leah and he appears to be a lot more composed uh a lot more deliberate a lot more relaxed so I'm not sure perhaps going into this debate and this is something that we will elaborate a little more on perhaps going into this debate he expected a very different Phil lineman than what we got tonight I I think what I will remember most what I am really taking away from this debate tonight Leah is what didn't happen and honestly frankly how much of a snoozer this debate was I I barely struggled to get through it this was so boring Leah and a little bit it was like what you hear about Phil Lyman right and you said off the air very nice guy you know him personally really nice guy but what I had heard about him especially like recent news you know some of the mean ways he behaves in meetings I was expecting to really not be a fan and I feel like what like third of the way through I turned you and I'm like oh like I agree with him like what he just said what's happening here what just happened and so a little bit I was expecting this to be a barn burner right because I thought Phil Lyman was going to come and you know deliver the thunder right like it was going to be like that well and Phil Lyman is pulling it roughly 25% in this primary election among Republican voters and as a political strategist my assumption was that Phil needed to take some shots here uh he needed to uh do something similar perhaps to what Riverton May Trent Stags did in the US Senate debate yesterday when he took that parting shot at John Curtis I'm not advocating for that kind of messaging or those kind of politics necessarily but I fully expected that Phil Lyman would come into this debate tonight against incumbent Governor Cox uh trying to throw as many punches as he could and instead we got a very policy nuanced teddy bear Phil Lyman tonight and I'm not saying it's a bad thing perhaps that's a good thing we'll get into that later but in terms of the politics and Phil lyman's odds in this primary uh this wasn't the time for Phil Lyman to go soft all right but let's can we talk about this for a second so like Phil Lyman is the convention choice and you have often told me right that there are 4,000 people at the convention and 93,000 Republicans across the state and you say there's a disc between the people who show up at the convention versus all the people who are out there in the wild just being Republican on out there in the Wild on any given day sure and so maybe it is the case I mean I wasn't at that convention was Phil Lyman throwing Thunder at the convention this was a very different version of Phil L we saw at the debate today yeah so is the answer he is actually politically intelligent right and so the answer is I know now I'm talking to 93,000 people in this debate and it's not like you had to be here live cuz most normal people might not have spent six to seven doing that sure but you're going to be able to listen to it again it's going to show up on podcast it's going to show up on social media feeds and what I want to do is look as reasonable and what did you call them policy teddy bear how did you say it policy Nuance teddy bear poliy Nuance teddy bear because maybe that does appeal to more people than 93,000 like it could that be right like what is a good point it's a really good point Leah I guess he's not being consistent there if that is a new uh friendlier version of Phil Lyman postc convention and and that is it's a very fair point because typically we will see that in a lot of Elections where a republican candidate in Utah will be further to the right as they attempt to appeal to convention delegates and then they could moderate after convention to appeal to that broader electorate however Phil Lyman may have come across that way in this debate tonight but he is not doing that in any of his other campaign messaging or content so tonight seems like it was a little bit uh of an bit of an aberration from the rest of his campaign messaging and again I want to be super clear here I am not advocating right for more aggressive uh you know bomb throwing and the worst kind of politics that's not what I'm advocating for here what I'm saying is that just strategically for Phil Lyman he has ground to make up here he's running against a very well-known well-liked incumbent and Phil Lyman it's not that Phil Lyman didn't even land or not that he didn't land shots or hits tonight Leah it's that he didn't even swing so let me ask you a question just in there what you were talking about this is a different Phil Lyman and that you felt like the messaging is different from the campaign to what we saw in this debate but did you feel like any of the policy positions changed like so my question kind of is what you just said right you might run to the right and I think you'd run to the left if we were state the head Democrats right like they would run to the left to get to the convention you'd run a little bit left right to get to a primary and then when you come into a general election you modify and the goal is to try not to be a hypocrite right so you don't want to have said XYZ you want to be like x x Prime X double Prime right you want to be like shades of your same message so if you're a candidate that is actually keeping track of stuff you've said in the past course yeah I think if you have integrity a little bit right so so but my question is did you feel like anything he said sounded like so it's not that he was moderating policy positions right right do you think it was more he was moderating his behavior so I've spent a lot of time uh around representative Phil Lyman at Utah Capital during the legislative session since he's been in office there and the Phil Lyman tonight on stage in this debate was very much like the very policy detailed representative from Blanding Utah that serves in the Utah State Legislature in the Weeds on policy talking about some details very mild mannered in tone that is very different than the broadly curated public political Persona that Phil Lyman has crafted for this campaign I like it I like it a lot it's just not going to win this primary election okay so coming up next we're just GNA keep talking about this we have so much to talk about again boring boring debate Leah but I want to talk about why I thought it was boring we will get into that listeners coming com up after the break you know KSL is the only news radio for your car right the only news radio for your smart speaker come here in the morning it's the latest news and traffic in the afternoon news and updated weather we have you covered at KSL News radio we're about to bury the needle high pressure is going to build back another round of high heat will move on in and it's only June extra hot extra early stay updated on the steamy forecast for this week get a reliable KSL forecast every 10 minutes on the 9es mornings and afternoons on KSL News radio you've been 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guarantee it schedule your free testosterone test exam and consultation today call 80126 37777 that's 80263 7777 or visit reviv men health.com KSL KSL at night welcome back to KSL at night you're here with me leam Murray alongside my good friend Taylor Morgan and we're here live tonight Taylor that's not usually how we do things but because it is debate season we're in here talking about all things debate so listeners what we did earlier was watch the gubernatorial Republican primary debate um between incumbent um Spencer Cox and candidate Phil Lyman who is a representative in our state legislature I'm just going to elevate Taylor just you know do me the service to be able to do this um my student Weber State University student asked a question about the nationalization of bills in a Utah State this was a great question Leah clearly he's one of your students and one of the students who was paying attention in class so kudos to you Professor yeah and to excellent question here right and I didn't coach him does that make sense I actually had no idea did you write this question for I did not write this question impressive did you what was his grade uh last semester that's a violation of furpa and I would never reveal okay I'm sorry you passed the test let us listen to Phil lyman's answer what I've seen in the legislature is legislation that's coming from the top down it's not supposed to happen that way it's supposed to come from the bottom up we're elected as representatives of 45,000 46,000 people in the House of Representatives we bring that legislation things that are important to our constituents and to our districts and we bring that to the legislature we argue those things wee present those bills what we've seen this these last few years is a extremely uh top- down approach to legislation things that are coming from we don't know where but they come through the governor's office through the U the unified Economic Opportunity commission created to work with with the stakeholders and the speaker and the president of the Senate and the governor and and then we show up two committees and these bills are presented to us as if they are must-pass bills uh and they don't address local issues they're they're they're coming down from sometimes from outside the the country from the from the world economic Forum or from the United Nations or from other think tanks that are National or International uh that's not the way we do legislation you thought it should be from the bottom up and that's and parents have to be involved in these decisions on education so right there I think I turned to you and I said there's me and Phil Lyman like an a diagram I was a little surprised right because I think one of the things my students talking about is it feels like bills right like it's kind of like one siiz fits all bills and you hear Phil Lyman Say No it should come from the bottom up what was interesting in his answer Taylor was it wasn't just think tanks although he says there are think tanks that are doing this but he talks about the governor showing up with the legislature with the must pass bill yeah and so he I felt answered that really well he did at the same time it is entirely naive and I don't think quite honest to claim that the process of drafting legislation like this is should always be bottom up in theory I get it the reality is is that representative Phil Lyman knows that the entire Utah State Legislature they're citizen legislators it's not their full-time job they do not have staff members at all during the session and only during those 45 days Utah legislators have interns right like my student exactly right they do not have staff they do not maintain offices year round they have other day jobs to provide an income for themselves for their family whatnot and yes serving is a sacrifice and serving is a year- round thing however the bandwidth and capacity it takes to draft legislation non-stop when you're a part-time citizen legislator there there's nothing wrong with organizations and this happens on both sides of the aisle it's not just conservative groups or liberal groups National organizations nonprofits right we have seen all kinds of entities and organizations from churches and Charities to think takes on both sides of the aisle nationally they routinely suggest legislation at the state level to State legislatures and it should be balanced of course but it's not inherently bad all right let's listen to Governor Cox's answer to this question I yes there are probably a few bills that come through um some of these National organizations uh model bills that's been true forever that's what we do we steal ideas from other states when somebody has a good idea we take those ideas that's that's the laboratory of democracy that we're supposed to be um I can tell you that far too many people the problem is that people don't pay enough attention to what the legislature is doing um about 590 bills were passed last legislative which I think are too many uh nevertheless the vast majority of those bills well over 80% and close to 90% were unanimous or near unanimous and and dealing with very hyper local issues I would encourage you to actually go look at all 590 of those bills and what you'll see is that yes there are 10 or 20 of them that get a lot of national attention and get people fired up and those are the ones the media covers but that is not the legislature so talk to me for just a minute because you live up on you know Capitol Hill when it is the session right you were up there at the state capital is it the case that Cox Governor Cox or if a governor you whoever the governor is do they have the staff meaning do they move in that legislative space like you just talked about interest groups doing like so they would show up with written bills the the governor's office does work hand inand with the legislature with legislative leadership in both parties throughout the year uh to work on legislative priorities and potential legislation that process does happen year round to some extent in the governor's office because that is a function of the governor's office is to identify gubernatorial priorities whether it's issues or policies or uh technical changes in the code right or Appropriations the governor also releases his legislative funding priorities ahead of the session and also makes policy suggestions when it comes to you know legislation that is a very routine noral thing is is Governor Spencer uh Cox explained there I want to get to the heart of this question I think and this uh this young man was a student and perhaps you have a better sense of what he was referring to when I heard him ask this question my mind Leah immediately went to the bills we saw this last session the Dei Bill uh and also the the transgender bathroom access Bill those were bills that we had seen modeled in other Republican dominated States leg legislatively dominated and they were then taken and tweaked and passed here in Utah that's what I initially thought of where did your mind go no I think that's probably what he was asking but the thing that I thought was interesting was both candidates kind of took it in their own Direction yeah right so what Phil Lyman did I thought was cool right like he's kind of and he gets into things should come up from the counties and I was a county commissioner like later in the debate he talks about that yeah and then you've got Spencer Cox saying it's about the Laboratories of democracy so I think my students was Pro probably saying I've got a problem with model legislation yeah right he didn't actually say that but I think he was probably there and Cox is saying but this is how we do things like we borrow from other states and later he's going to say youah is the best state in the nation and people borrow from us yeah which one do you think like so neither of them actually I think landed right where the student was asking but which answer did you find the most persuasive uh Governor Cox's answer I thought was the most persuasive because I thought he was honest with how that process really works what it looks like uh he didn't uh try to take any cheap shots using model legislation and Leah it's a nonpartisan thing it happens on both sides of the aisle and to be honest having spent a lot of time working drafting legislation and having to to have legislators request uh the attorneys at legislative research and general counsel to draft legislation it is not uncommon for those attorneys who are by the way sor L over taxed and severely underpaid for the hours and the work they put in and there's not nearly enough of them many many many times legislators go to those attorneys and will literally just say I want a version of what Florida did or I want a version of what Minnesota or some other state did and that attorney then will can grab that legislation that passed in another state recently and use that as a starting point that happens a lot it's not a nefarious thing right but the govern ER said 80% of our 591 bills he kept saying 590 but it was 591 591 bills this session were hyper local yeah so does that what you just said mean that what he said was wrong or is your answer yeah go my answer is that when he says they're hyper hyper local these are still bills that are being worked on and prepared during the interm right now is when this happens but these are bills coming from groups like uak Utah Association of counties right representative Lyman which know that he's been a county commissioner they're coming from the league of cities and towns these are local utah-based organizations representing their various constituencies who know how to pass legislation and they know that it has to happen right now and that's why that process happens and frankly why it works really well yeah yeah know I think it's interesting I thought I think a lot of people have in their heads like the boogeyman of a model legislation yeah so what I liked about this conversation was there are maybe other boogey men there's other things in place I think the model legislation that we think of often that I refer to that came to mind the Dei legislation the transgender bathroom access bill um the the quote unquote don't say gay in school uh bill that we saw fail this last legislative session those are far in a way the exception to the rule not the rule okay so even though we're talking all things debate tonight don't forget that news breaks about other topics all the time you can get the latest information from KSL News radio via text just text news to 57500 to get started listeners we're going to keep diving into other issues that popped in this debate stay with us after the break it is 7:30 at KSL News radio I'm Mark Jackson KSL stops Story another night of Politics on KSL News radio and a debate you heard right here on KSL News radio between candidates for Governor Spencer Cox and Challenger Phil Lyman both agreed on some issues including Federal overreach when it comes to public lands in Utah Cox says Utah best know how to manage their lands better than anyone else we cannot let a federal government based in Washington D DC and that has been taken over by extreme environmentalists make decisions that are keeping us from being able to go out and camp and hike Lyman agrees but unlike Cox says suing the federal government is not nearly enough to assure public land stay in the hands of utans well Governor Cox visited the legislative committee today to personally thank them for supporting the Olympics and he was joined by committee for the games president Frasier bulock who says this is not exactly a Victory lap just yet Victory lap will be July 24th at about 500 a.m. so we're continuing to work until then we feel very good that everything's lining up it's a lot of work but the Victory lap is just around the corner it' be July 24th that meeting is when the ioc executive committee will officially vote to accept Utah's bid our top National Story one of the jurors of the hunter Biden gun trial says the case was heart-wrenching not politically motivated but the defense overplayed its hand trying to get jurors to believe Hunter may have gone to 7-Eleven to buy coffee instead of crack juror 68-year-old from Sussex county says their deliberations focused on a letter from Biden himself bitting that he did go at most random hours to sit in a car and wait for his dealer at 7-Eleven President Biden again today reiterated what he told ABC last week that he would accept the decision from jurors coming up the latest forecast models hold out we could see Triple digits in our neck of the woods this week details in the forecast next KL news time 7:32 Jordan camper at 7 ,000 South State in Midville is Utah's longest operated truck top and accessory shop familyowned and operated for five generations a wide range of products from floor mats to step bars if you have a cargo van or a 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up your life KSL offers the best daily newsletter in the state it's the three things you need to know every weekday we deliver quality and relevant content to your inbox no ads no spam just the three things you need to know to be informed about the world around you subscribe today visit KSL newws radio.com or text the word inbox to 57500 that's inbox to 57500 we hope you have the right app on your phone for news you probably have dozens but the KSL News radio app well it makes our live stream super easy plus our talk shows are right there is podcast for your workday that's the app for KSL News radio traffic and weather together BBA Sinclair's Dino pay app save up to 20 cents per gallon they are working again tonight in multiple right lanes ID westbound Harley's canyon near the Quarry so the traffic delays there in the area passing the chain up area this again on the westbound side Lagoon is Utah's home for summer fun all the fun and excitement at Lagoon great rides Games Adventure open daily visit lagoonpark.com for hours and to purchase tickets and Valley weather looks like um we are likely going to see 100° temperatures that's right still in the forecast for Wednesday and Thursday get out at 100 on Thursday we get back into the 90s on Friday and go through the 80s this coming weekend 90 right now plenty warm at 7:36 I'm Mark Jackson on KSL News radio on 2.7 FM 1160 a.m. KSL newws radio.com Utah's News traffic and weather St KSL at night welcome back to a very special LIVE edition of KSL at night here on KSL News radio I am Taylor Morgan here with Leah Murray and Leah we have been talking about the rep Publican gubernatorial primary debate that aired earlier this evening we watched it together here in person in studio at KSL and uh it was quite the snoozefest as we've discussed uh I'll tell you going through my phone here and kind of catching up during the break the number of text messages I have uh from friends and family with just the uh sleeping Emoji which means all your friends and family were watching or listening some of them were but uh also know that I would be talking about the debate tonight and I think that was the reaction universally and that was certainly my reaction Leah this debate was I don't think it was really valuable in terms of educating voters or creating awareness or interest in this race and one of my biggest concerns or complaints with this debate Leah was the fact that the questions at least maybe with the exception or one or two in the end but all the questions in the Governor's debate tonight were identical to the questions asked earlier this afternoon in the Republican attorney general's debate we're talking about two very different Offices here with very different candidates yet we're going to ask them The Identical questions in the debates how how is that helpful so do you think the argument could be we were looking for Republican talking points or something right so you'd be asking questions cuz you're not wrong it's it's attorney general and it's a governor but they're all Republicans right and they're all representing that party position those questions didn't even attempt to create any differentiation between Republicans if it's a Republican primary election debate between Republican candidates you shouldn't you be trying to differentiate among Republicans those questions were curated for a general election audience not a Republican primary audience so what do you think so I'm just going to put you right on the spot here Taylor what would be a specific question that if asked would have caused Phil Lyman and Spencer Cox to say do you I mean like two vastly different things well I think that some of the key question where is there some daylight between them do I mean like what issues would have brought that out I would have liked more specific questions on for example the uh ballot measure on the ballot this November that would remove the Constitutional earmark on state incaps fund income funding for Education along with the repeal of the sales tax on food I would like to know where those to stand on that specific issue i' would like to know what budget priority recommendations they would make to the legislature when it comes to funding education and we may have had some very superficial surface level questions on some of these things but Leah there were no follow-up there's not one single follow-up question this entire debate we never got below the surface level answer all this debate was was an hour-long platform for platitudes and time talking points we got nothing more right but you also think too so let me just kind of push back a little bit yeah I feel like in the debates we saw yesterday there was a bit more like the candidates were like I want to rebut that I want to rebut that want like so you got some back and forth I don't think we saw that earlier in the AG and I don't think we saw that in the governor's race do you think Taylor a little bit because there's a feedback loop so that maybe people watching yesterday thought this was a little divisive so today the candidates were getting advice to just stay on topic and just answer the questions because maybe the moderators not doing a followup because they didn't right it was never the case that Phil Lyman said let me speak to that right that didn't happen well listen I I do think that it is important to set the rules and and to have a even clearly understood playing field in a debate for the candidates because Leo we we all know that no matter what the rules are in a debate the candidates will or at least will try to do anything and everything right candidates can simply not be trusted uh the except that these two well except for this news Fest tonight and again if I was advising Phil Lyman I would have advised him uh to maybe not play the by the rules and try to take some shots and land a few punches on Governor Cox and he did not do that but Leah again that aside the format here was not conducive to voter education regardless of how the candidates played ball that there was no value it it's not useful or helpful to ask candidates uh to give a two-minute response on an incredibly vague ambiguous question because you're just opening the door to letting the candidate go to their favorite talking point they have memorized you're not actually getting into a substantive conversation right yeah no I hear you one question I did think it was different was about the NHL hockey Stadium yes that was so did you feel like that was a good question to ask uh I think it in theory that I like that they asked that question it was at the very end of the debate and I believe that question would have been much better had it been more specific and listen we you can address two different people that have had different involvement right in a similar issue representative Phil Lyman is a legislator right Governor Cox of course is the executive they both had and currently have a role in the downtown revitalization project involving the NHL team why not ask each of them a very specific question about a vote or about a decision or an ongoing process they're currently involved with related to that subject not just the same uniform vague question right so basically what they were asked was the state spending millions of dollars on an NHL arena let's listen to the governor's answer the the Larry H Miller group when they built the Delta Center they did very similar to what we're doing here the truth is if you live outside of this area outside of Salt Lake City you will not pay a dime for anything that's happening there all the legislature did was give Salt Lake City the opportunity to raise sales tax in Salt Lake City by um by by 05% that's that's all that happened for for the hockey Stadium the voters of Salt Lake the the the mayor the city council members they will make that decision so I believe this is the very best way it protects taxpayers um it gives us an opportunity this is a huge opportunity for the state not just from economic development but but an opportunity for so many people who again are excited to have the NHL here here would be my follow-up question Leah Governor Cox if you were mayor of Salt Lake City would you support that sales tax increase right right let's listen to candidate Lyman on the same question fact is that these these Investments when you when you take a billion dollars of taxpayer money and put it into a stadium um that's not the same thing as personal money that that creates an ongoing liability for the taxpayers um I love baseball I love hockey I love to see these things um you know built in our communities I'm I'm grateful for the contributions of some of our philanthropists and their and their uh Investments That made into the community but to to uh step into that space as a legislature uh has been confusing to me I don't see it as the proper role of government uh if if Salt Lake County wants to do it then then I think the legislature should stay out of Salt Lake County's Affairs in that regard but it's not staying out of it it's coming to the legislature we're being asked to weigh in on that and the first bill that comes up is do you like baseball if so oh now the second bill that comes up is you want to spend a billion dollars on a Major League baseball stadium and and the answer to that is is not of taxpayer money and not on the uh on the basis of of what we've seen happen in other cities and other other places around the country where they are a tremendous liability well in right here representative Lyman is conflating two very different pieces of legislation and two different issues the NHL hockey stadium and the downtown uh revitalization is not the MLB Power District that is a totally different Bill different appropriation they're being funded in very different ways and again where is the follow-up question about what a potential future Governor Phil Lyman would do to stop that tax increase there there were no follow-ups Leah this is not productive when it comes to voter education is my opinion we need to talk a lot more about that Leah and I have some suggestions some very constructive suggestions for the Utah debate Commission on how I think they can improve these debates after the break current events can have a lot of moving Parts our job is to make it easy to keep up you're part of a bigger world so spend 15 or 20 minutes here and be part of it join us weekday mornings between 5 and 9 on KSL News Radio Pro paint days are back at lows save $40 on select 5 gallon HGTV home by Sherwin Williams paint like weathershield showcase or ceiling paint plus save $10 on drywall PVA primer and get free same day delivery to the job site when you order by 2 p.m. Lowe's nose Paint Lowe's nose Pros offers valid through 64 delivery by 800 p.m. subject to driver availability additional terms apply cow.com slamay delivery for details hey everyone it's Ted from Consumer Cellular the guy 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kids about underage use of Alcohol and Other Drugs visit underage drinking. sams.gov KSL at night KSL at night welcome back to KSL at night you're here with me Leah Murray alongside my good friend Taylor Morgan and Taylor and I watch the debate together earlier we did barely stayed awake for it um Taylor let's talk about like the most important thing that a debate does is get voters the information they need to make decisions yeah and maybe that sounds ridiculous because maybe you think man I could just you know look at a website right or I could get the mailer from the candidate and I could just read that yeah but what's really cool about a debate is actually it shows you how they think does it yeah it does if you ask a question they actually knew all the answers right so like say or Leah they had a canned set of uh prescripted memorized responses that they were able to plug and play as the best response to whatever question was asked but even that because sometimes people can't deliver on that Taylor does that make sense right so even there you're like they studied right so they got ready for this oral exam and then they showed up and did an hour on television and so could AI I mean really we I want candidate who will be authentic who can think okay in real time and respond in real time Leah I want a conversation about policy and ideas I don't how do you get there well that's a great question and and I'm this is where we're going with this final segment of this special LIVE edition of KSL at night here and I don't want to totally uh be too cynical here I appreciate these debates I appreciate the fine folks and the good work of the Utah debate commission and I do think in theory debates are important I in theory I firmly believe that strongly however functionally the way that we currently have debates in in this state in in this country these debates are literally just not useful for voters voters do not learn anything new about candidates in these kinds of debates they're they are simply a platform for platitudes and talking points and and prescripted messages we don't get anything new or fresh we learn nothing about these C so what do you think Taylor like what is so one of the things we talk about is that incumbents don't want to debate right because the worry is they're going to say something unbelievably stupid that it shows up um for the rest of the campaign Trail and we have can point to a lot of examples where incumbents go down in a beautiful ball of flame as a result of something they've said in a debate so what do you think is it that we are being how do I say if someone didn't show up for debate right we would be really angry about it the fact that president Biden and former president Trump are not really playing ball with the national presidential debate commission they're playing ball but their own game right like that's the problem right okay go why well exactly right because we saw the Biden campaign and the Trump campaigns come together in uh shocking short you know fashion very little notice it was it was amazing almost uh premeditated I I might say Leah how quickly those campaigns came together and agreed to a very special set of rules to host their own debates apart from the debate commission's debates that of course did not involve any third party candidates right right so they they understand what I am trying to argue here and that is that these debates have become nothing more than a performance this is a political performance it is very it is the most boring kind of reality TV that no one really cares about there's no drama there's nothing new nothing ever nothing ever happens you can't even tease a debate like this in the show before a break right because it is so tightly scripted candidates love control and when I advise candidates on these debates I am always trying to minimize risk and I'm trying to control every variable possible as a campaign consultant and often and I know that you know some listeners might take issue with this and I'm I welcome the criticism but I'm just trying to be honest and vulnerable here I have advised many in incumbent or Front Runners not to do debates because they only stand to lose right so then what do you think so you're looking for authenticity and honesty so are you looking for people to not disagree better listen disagree better doesn't mean you can't disagree I want uh a feisty policy debate and conversation I don't want candidates just getting up there and agreeing with each other honestly like Governor Cox and Phil Lyman just did would would you ever have thought that Phil Lyman and Spencer Cox would agree so much before the debate tonight right or that there wasn't that much daylight between them there earlier I was like let's find some space and it's because of the format and it's because of the questions you're never going to get a real conversation or a real difference between candidates if you don't force them to actually talk longer I have seen both of these gentlemen and I think they're both good people really honestly and I believe they have good intentions running for office Phil Lyman and Spencer Cox I've seen them both talk at Great Lengths about controversial policies and issues behind closed doors they're very smart men they can have a wonderful conversation about this but what they did is they dumbed down the policy details to the lowest common Den denominator because they literally had two or three minutes and that's all they ever had to talk about a very comp complex issue you're never going to get anything meaningful out of that kind of a format so talk to about so is I feel like debates are part of the ritual of a republic right so if you're are going to have consent of the Govern what you have to have is information out there and a debate is a one it's a way even if it's maybe scripted you put them in the same place at the same time and they answer but if you're saying like no one's really getting anything out of this yeah so is the answer we just lose this part of the ritual we've already lost it what value is it currently providing think it wasn't performative does that make sense so when in history do you think think it wasn't the case that a candidate said I'm going to make sure I answer this in such a way that when someone repeats it I mean obviously there wasn't social media back then right like if someone repeats it I feel like that's always been that case it's been a good question probably I I can't remember the last debate I watched I will say that during the Republican presidential primary process I do think debates had an impact for Nikki Haley for example I thought those were impactful despite the fact that everyone in the press all they wanted to talk about was the fact Donald Trump wasn't there right so so is it about the debate Taylor or is it about us saying that maybe the way we talk about it or the way the media covers it is actually the problem exactly right we need to totally rethink our Paradigm of how we see debates what they are supposed to be and and how they function in our in our Republic we need to totally revamp how we approach debates because Leah we've nothing else is like this everything is different when it comes to Communications and media and voter information in our election process elections the way candidates communicate to voters today is wildly different than the way it was 50 years ago yet we're still trying to do debates old ritual exactly and it's not working we need to get creative and we need to see debates as something different and then go about doing them very differently okay do you feel like I don't know like we had primary debates that seems like something different or cool we should like that the Utah debate commission did that is something different well I think in the past uh they should have done those debates or tried to do them and failed they had a hard time getting candidates to participate in the debates in the past as well there's been there's been any number of issues and In fairness candidates have often been to blame and people like me have also been to blame right to be honest telling your candidates not to do it so we need to look at every aspect of this and unfortunately Le I know we're bumping up on our deadline here I could spend hours talking about ideas to improve debates and and I think that is one of the obvious Solutions is you know a 1-hour debate for the who will likely almost assuredly be the governor of the state of Utah for the next four years to spend one hour doing that at this stage in a primary when ballots have been out for weeks it doesn't seem like it's useful all right so it should have been before the ballots dropped it yeah yeah yeah I gotta I gotta that's another show so listeners come back and we will get into this with Taylor Taylor do you think they lied either of them was there any lying happening in the debate oh Leah you're going have to define the word Li for me that's another show entirely I think that's another whole show you're talking politics right now Leah it's really just a TV show so here's the deal there maybe was some lying I'm not sure but KSL's truth test is going to be happening tonight at 10m KL TV's investigative reporter Daniela Rivera and investigative producer Annie Knox will take a deep dive into these candidates what they said and tell you if it's Truth or Fiction next up on KSL at night stay with us we've been diving into the governor's debate now we're going to dive into the GOP attorney general debate stay with us after the [Music] [Music] break KSL FM Midville