No. 63: Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson

would like to welcome all of you to the live episode recording of 100 historic black women you should know by election day so we're here to celebrate number 63 if you've missed any of the past episodes we're counting down 100 all the way down to election day and we're on number 63 which is Supreme Court Justice katoni Brown Jackson so we're here for the live recording to basically cele celebrate the release of her Memoir um and if you haven't gotten it yet it is this beautiful lovely book that I have been reading non-stop all of today to prepare for today's uh recording so like I said please pick it up if you're new here I am Shay omano um also known as Shay the historian online if you guys see me there um and this podcast is very simple to make sure that black women are no no longer the footnotes or treated as footnotes throughout history so that's why every single day we're highlighting a historic black woman so I'm going to give a little bio of Justice Jackson and then I'll introduce our wonderful uh panel members for today's episode which I'm so excited about because I just realized that we're all super connected in a way that we didn't know until recently which is like phenomenal right um okay so let's get let's go ahead with her bio so katoni Brown Jackson was born in Washington DC and grew up in Miami Florida she received her undergraduate and law degrees both with honors from Harvard University then served as a law clerk for three federal judges including associate Justice Stephen J G Brier of the Supreme Court of the United States Jackson subsequently practiced law in the private sector served as an assistant Federal public defender and worked as a staff attorney and later as Vice chair of the US sentencing commission in 2012 President Barack Obama nominated Jackson to the US District Court for the District of Colombia elevated to the US court of appeals for the District of Colombia circuit in 2021 Jackson made history in 2022 when President Biden nominated nominated her as an associate Justice the first black woman ever appointed to the Supreme Court of the United States she took her seat on June 30th 2022 what a phenomenal bio and it's also in the back cover of this beautiful book I mean look at this I mean I mean we can honestly get into the profile and photography for this book because it's truly phenomenal um and let's do the introductions for our guest for today so today I am joined by two esteemed guests both Harvard Law graduates see one thing about black women that I I really love is we're going to show up for our own uh especially because of these type of spaces where there's just so few of us um I'm just so happy to be in conversation with them so I will start with a so a is an appellate public defender in Detroit prior to becoming a public defender M clerk for Justice Sonia sod mayor on the Supreme Court of the United States and for judge Robert L Wilkins on the United States court of appeals for the District of Columbia circuit during law school she served as president of the Harvard Law review becoming the first black woman to hold the position in the journal's 131 year history dropped the mic right there Kristen Turner is our next uh guest for today's episode Kristen Turner is a thought leader and strategist aiming to rethink our political and social change storytelling across industry she's known for her work centered on creating more Equity individual agency and overall well-being in the world and for giving shape to the conversations that support that her perspectives generally live at the intersection of social change Civic Tech and electoral politics with a current focus on nonpartisan political persuasion digital storytelling and the undere examined relationship between individual change and Collective action Kristen is the founder of Misfit Minds Collective a Civic studio and lab on a mission to reimagine our relationships to ourselves each other and the world around us she previously served as the national director of ballot access and voter protection on the warrant for president campaign and as the deputy director of the Super PAC affiliated with EMILY's List women vote wow what a phenomenal group of women to be with here today so I thought it would be really great to start uh this podcast episode actually talking about a passage from katoni Brown Jackson's Memoir and I I think it will really just set the tone for a lot of the topics that we're going to discuss today so I will read uh this beautiful passage and let me actually provide it for everyone as I read it out [Music] loud there we go so for many Americans This is kagi brown Jackson for many Americans the appointment of a black woman to the Supreme Court for the first time since this country was founded was extraordinary and long overdue I marveled at how different this moment in our nation's history looked compared to era's past such as when py had been decided or when the very Court I was now joining had stated in its 1857 Dread Scott versus Stanford opinion that African-Americans were beings of an inferior order so inferior that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect that's from the opinion 165 years later the media carried the occasion of my swearing in widely as breaking news a ref reputation sorry of past nominees a long anticipated and highly celebrated National Achievement and this is from the beginning passage of Justice Jackson's Memoirs and it's a striking scene and I think it's something that really prepares the reader for the depths that are going to be covered in her Memoir so I just want to start off with your reaction to this quote what message do you think Justice Jackson is trying to send through this Memoir was starting with such a striking scene and comparison of what it means for her to take such a powerful position and I'll leave it I'll leave it to yeah I first of all Shay thank you so much this is very very much in honor and I I really admire your project I love when you said black women no longer being the footnotes um in history that is that's really beautiful way to put it and I think that this quote gives me chills and makes me think about things like that because you can certainly read this and appreciate it that she is not certainly not going to be a footnote um and I I love what I love about this quote is I think it shows that it's not lost on her how momentous and important um of a step this is albe it long overdue um and I think that's really important because I I think it also even though it's it's a reflection in many ways it shows how she might be thinking about her role now and the importance of TR continuing going forward right and and understanding that she is really like has taken up the antle of such a uh important in you know being in such an important institution um and and she understands that the gravity of that and I really love that and I and I think that um it makes me happy to know that there's someone on the court that sees that sees herself is able to situate herself in this history so well so well said hi so I want to Echo the many things for being here this is a great concept you know like just even as we couple it with the momentum and the trajectory of where we're heading in November I think it's so great to uplift um the context RIT large and I think that's very much so what M was talking about and also what struck me is I think that you know we are coming out of a moment where we see what happens when we have leaders who do not contextualize their roles and also our roles in the world and so I think to open with someone who can self- situate in a way um me a lot of Hope and I think also opening with a reflection and a sense of humility in the sense that we are talking about the highest court in the land and arguably one of their worst decisions and the idea that you can step into a role that can get it wrong sometimes and recognizing that this is not an imperfect position I um I think is huge and I think that just that signals to me a level of not only humility but Humanity that I think that we're all really kind of reaching for um and then I also think that like the thing that we're all pointing to and really relishing in is the fact that that change is possible you know and it is not it's nowhere near impossible even if it comes too few and too far between um and so she really captures all of those things I think really eloquently um in just a few short words I I really love uh what I think both of you guys are touching on which is the fact that just because this is a memoir written by a black woman doesn't mean it can't appeal to everyone there's a certain level of humility and Humanity that I've found just from Reading you know a couple hundred pages so far is that in reality what Justice Jackson represents for everyone is advancement across the board you know what I mean like justice Jackson taking that seat isn't just a matter of okay W I'm here and you know forget everyone else what we see so far is like wow like this is a step forward for all of humanity because For the Longest Time throughout history we've seen uh that black women are often the least considered least understood um least prioritized within history and by all means by the court um which you know we we'll definitely get more into that but I want to talk about you guys I think you guys have such a beautiful perspective um to add to a lot of the narrative that we're going to see in katangi brown Jackson's Memoir so I I think it's it's really good to start off with this because it's it's a good thing and it's a it's a bad thing I think people are very interested in the experiences of being a black woman at Harvard Law so I was wondering if you guys could both share uh one significant challenge you had uh while you were at Harvard Law and then one happy memory because I think often times um whenever we talk about black women in their stories it can be very easy to focus on the challenge and not also at the same time focus on the good times because there can there can be good times uh even in spaces like this um so MMA I'll start with you one Challenge and one really good memory from your time at Harvard Law yeah sure I think it's it's smart to ask for both um because yes uh you know W school is very it's a very intense three years and it's kind of started with a unusually intense first year um and so when I you ask about what's the most challenging and when I think about what the most challenging time in law school I think I I do go back to that first year um and it not just because it was a lot of reading and a lot of you know class hours but also it's a lot of that stuff on subjects that are totally foreign um and I've never before law school heard of a tort never thought about all the intricacies and procedures about filing a lawsuit or you know how to litigate a case never thought about like the intricacies of a contract or anything like that and I think it does relate to your the question um with respect to race you know for that there's a very good chance that uh among black women certainly black students and black women that is uniquely true and disproportionately true um that uh I don't from law you know neither of my parents were lawyers um and so I think it's not just a new environment a lot of work but also on subject matter that is very very difficult um certainly as it starts out you can get the hang of it eventually but I think the foreignness of it um is a bit jarring at at the start but I also like my happiest moments also come from one L year because it's where I met two of my very best friends and who I've made very close with and talked to regularly and I love that I love and admire and aspire to be more likee and I think that's important because I I met them during that chaotic time so I think it's important to remember that even in these challenging moments you know and I and I even in these challenging moments you can look up and there are PE there are good people around you and that was certainly true at hls um that there are people who and I and I certainly um was a beneficiary of finding finding um two in myself SE um that really can carry you along the way um and not just in your not just you know in my section Kristen was certainly a leader on campus and someone I deeply admired uh not being funny um but there are and there are these moments of in the these kind of challenging Anda chaotic um spaces where you can you know look up and kind of grab inspiration to keep you going a little longer oh I love that I love that Kristen how about you I honest ly I Echo everything mayay said for sure and we were fortunate enough to be there we overlapped so that was great we got to meet and know each other while there which is added to the sense of community um the hardest thing definitely you know one now obviously people talk about it and I think to Echo it's like there's there's the foreignness to the language and I mean I remember like I remember subject matter jurisdiction took me forever to just be able to say like Cadence of it for first year it was just like why but even more so than that to your point it was there was a lot of self-doubt and consonantly there was a lot of self- coaching that was required you know and I think that like that gets left out sometimes in the narrative because like you have to have something that combats the self-doubt that does creep in and I think that when you layer it on top of the stamina game that you're playing because you're just constantly reading and like the ritual of it becomes a little bit redundant and it becomes you know very exhausting um becomes easier to have louder negative voices in your mind um to varying degrees but nonetheless like they can creep in more than you're usually you know used to especially in the context of the fact that like if you've gotten into any school at Harvard you know what I mean like you have essentially worked your butt off you know what I mean like there's no way that you have not earned that spot but it's essentially like going to a summer camp where suddenly Everybody Plays your same position right and so like you're no longer the you know outstanding student it's like the the playing field feels much more level in some ways in other ways this it feels like the general generational wealth version but you know we won't talk about that now you know but like there's another you know so there are there are different things and you're but you're trying to just get your arms around it and so like that space before you can name it requires a little bit of grappling so I I think that's tough and then I think personally for me um in my arc at hls actually my hardest this year was actually my last year when I was in student leadership and I was also kind of having going through my own journey of really deciding what I wanted to do um after law school and really having to kind of like interrogate um you know kind of like what my current experience was and what I wanted my future experiences to be and I really felt like that was particularly difficult as a student of color as a woman of color and kind of weighing and trying to ESS what my responsibilities were to myself and to other people that I was both related to knew and didn't know just by virtue of me being in that position and trying to figure out how you balance that space between like the the highest level of legitimacy and the least amount of responsibility that I had had so far and figuring out what I was supposed to do with that was really really hard um and I and I felt and I still feel like there was a gap in terms of the conversation and in terms of the way that this institution could support support that conversation and so that's where I try to fill in now as being like there's always a third option or a fourth option or a fifth option and I think um leaving space for imagination was something that I really craved while I was at hls um so that was kind of like the harder part and then the happier part I mean definitely Community I have actually one really happy memory with a that she probably doesn't know that's actually the year after I graduated so the year after I graduated there they opened the aam Museum here the national museum of African-American history and culture and there was like a black lawyers hls dinner thing there and mayay had just become the first black woman president of hard law review and so Ted Wells is one of the members of the Harvard Corporation the board um and also just a very well-known black alumni who's very involved Etc he works at Paul wi and he I had worked with him when I was president of BSA and he's like where's this girl like have you seen her and I was like oh she I was like no not only have I seen her she's here and he was like but find her no bring her to me and I was like done say L and I went I find a baby I'm like baby somebody want meet you Ted really wants to meet you right and I introduced them and it was one of those things where you're talking about one of the most high-powered attorneys in this country lit up in a way that was just so special when he met a mayay and it was one of those things where it really Illustrated the fact that your inspiration can come from behind you and the fact that your inspiration can come at any age um and I it was really special for me to see that um and for to see her get her flowers at the same time um and so that is actually one of my happiest memories and I think about it see like I love that day that was a good one so that's what I'll say I love that so much you know and I think that is truly the beauty of being at Harvard is these different type of communities that you not necessarily have to form out of necessity but that you form out of a deep desire to actually want to see each other succeed um you know even though I'm just across the line from you guys in the history Department I think that's one thing I had to learn really quickly is that I truly just enjoy being around these people like you know what I mean like I truly enjoy seeing my peers Thrive and I think at a place like Harvard where you just assume it's very cutthroat you know everyone's out for themselves and there's there's a subgroup like that you know don't don't don't get me wrong but what I've noticed especially about the black community especially with my best friend um is wow like we are so generous with our flowers we are so generous with our support we are so generous with connecting one another because that's that's another thing Harvard can be a very um isolating period of life if you don't have that Community if you don't have those intentional um connections and you know it it just warms my heart hearing stories like that cuz was like no like we don't have to be isolated not everything has to be a competition like we can truly love and desire to see other people flourish you know and it's wild because I think that you know I think I remember having this conversation with Balsa when we Balsa is the black law Students Association our little like black students group um on campus and you know I think one of the most disorienting things about that time is the fact that it's so peculiar that it's hard to assign language to sometimes like it's very insulated it's very specific it's very Niche and so you're suddenly in this you're kind of thrust into this context where it's like it's hard to describe your life to the people that know you the best in terms of like your family and your friends and so even creates some weird space and so it's so helpful to be able to have community in that space with people who like you know know what you're you're seeing and what you're experiencing and some of the stuff that you even haven't even expressed and so I think that that is the benefit of not only like the Balsa experience inside the law school but like this inter kind of like School situation with the black Brad space at Harvard generally because it is very hard to describe at times very well said okay so you know now that we have some well I'm still I'm still in the Harvard bubble but now that you guys have had some space away from the the Harvard Law experience um I'm interested in how Justice Jackson's trajectory from Harvard Law School to now the Supreme Court of the United States informed your own journey and your own trajector because I think often times with Memoirs this is a genre that I read you know this probably the top genre I read Memoirs are oftentimes written after a very huge event or at the end of somebody's life and I think there's some lessons that can only be learned in the middle of what you're going through and not necessarily you know once you achieve that big goal that you've set for yourself or you achieve that position that you want to get so how has her trajectory uh going once again from Harvard Law to suem supre Court um informed your own trajectory and how you see your career moving forward yeah sure I um I really love this question because it it gets to one of my favorite things about Justice Jackson and that's it I think as impressive you know it's she's had an incredibly impressive career trajectory but it you you know when you look at it it's not even a butt it's an an when you look at it it indicates that she wasn't always like following this type of Playbook to end up you know on the Supreme Court you know in particular you know because my bias I think it's always worth mentioning that and emphasizing that she was a public defender um and and I just think that that you know becoming a public defender is not something you're going to do if you're hellbent on becoming a federal judge or you know certainly not on becoming you know Supreme Court Justice and she did it anyways um and she s you know she said it was she thought it was worth doing it's a worthy cause and um it's important work and I'm going to do it and I just think I really admire um the fact that she I really admire that about her story and of course in it and she still had the trajectory she had and she still ended up a judge but I you know I think that that was more of a gamble to take but um rooted in understanding um rooted in her convictions right um and you know I think not to be too much of a groupy but I think Kristen's another really good example of that I think you can really get stuck on I went to hls so I need to do this type of thing after and then I need to go to this firm for this amount of time and then I need to do there's like there's like this kind of early prescribed to subscribed to Playbook um that people can just fall into it and kind of lack might lack imagination or even not just imagination but it being a good fit for you and um it's one of the things I you know admire about Kristen I think looking up and getting on a Campa campaign and looking at realizing that there are problems more on a more fundamental level about how we interact with one another and um as you know Civic participants um and being creative about that that's not if you you know if you're wedded to that law school it the hls Playbook you're not you're not going to do things like that and you're not going to really follow that type of passion and I think Justice Jackson although it's like might oh I mean she Ed up on the Supreme Court yeah but not not by some like super like I need to do this that then I need to be a prosecutor and then I need to be you know whatever she didn't do that and I really admire that and I and I um try to remind myself of that um and and being kind of courageous and U and and what my next steps might be one day y'all we'll be reading a mire I know I'll be like look at it isn't it beautiful hopefully it's just this thick ex exactly um I feel exactly the same about Justice Jackson and she came one year I think my final year your second year she did somewhere yes she came and it's funny that you ask the question because it actually does play a part in my story um because not only did she kind of she was very and she's very open about it she's kind of like I was just like just kind of felt right next and then I did this texting that so it was that piece of it but then she was one of only two other one of only two people total that also talked about the fact that she actually deliberately like squeezed in space in between each of her jobs and i' had never heard anybody from hls say anything like that ever she was like oh no that is not in the Playbook this is not a thing like that's not like it is prescribed and then they're like well it's a silver platter so why wouldn't you I don't what you mean baby you know like that's pretty much the vibe and so she was just like no like you know I I take a second to breathe and it was just both a nonchalant with which she said it and kind of like a matter of fact in terms of like I am a person you know and I kind of want to like take a second cuz I work hard and it was just like this acknowledgement of her being a person person and a being um amidst like the things that she does inside of the law that I thought was just really refreshing um and there and very empowered in a way that I think that like you know hls gets this wrap around kind of like the intellectual power and like the ability to kind of like manipulate thinking and thoughts but it's it's surprising how quickly you can lose sight of yourself in a context like that and kind of like lose hold of your ability to um you know keep hold of you um inside of all the things that you're grappling with and so I thought that that was really powerful for her to come and be like you know I take time in between and I don't necessarily plan it out like five years in advance I just kind of see what makes sense next um and to follow your most immediate curiosity to me just felt very inspired particularly for for in like you know in a Black Culture that's very much so like go with what is safe and sure you know and like and so it just subversive but in a really empowered way and you know okay so I have a follow question because I think you both raised some really good points how do we manage societal expectations whether it's coming from our own Community meaning the black community or whether it's coming from the Harvard Law Community there's always this or just the Harvard Community more broadly there's always these expectations like okay you know you got this really prestigious degree like what are you going to do next or you know you represent um an aspiration within the black community what are you going to do next right how do you balance those expectations with your own internal goals because I think sometimes they can be aligned you know we can have goals that you know the black community or the Harvard Community or whatever community may be that's looking up to us may say yes this is an alignment and sometimes they may be different you know like it doesn't necessarily always line up so H how do you balance those two forces totally I keep on kicking into a m man I know one where she be like can you answer no no I think it's such a good question and I I I think it's a tricky one too and I I think you know it's one thing that I think about a lot in terms of my every decision all big decisions life decisions career decisions is doing something that I really feel like I am proud of I can defend I'll always be able to defend and not have any hesitation about doing having done what I believe you know made made a decision or whether it be a job or a position that I feel proud of um and is something that I'm eager and excited to defend and I think that the reason that's important to me is because you're the there might be these expectations that are put on you but you're going to be the one that's like yeah but was that a good decision you have to live with the regret or you have to live with the second guessing and so I think um the the I think one of the ways to filter that those expectations as they come in is to really remember that you have to sit with these decisions and you have to really defend them in 20 years um or whenever um and that to me is something that I when I think about it that way I I become I see things a lot more clearly totally and I mean I think that similarly was what helped trigger kind of like my um kind of like transition when I was coming out of law school I remember because I was in student leadership I had to interact with a lot of alumni and I think it was well timed we had this thing called celebration of black alumni which only happens every five years and it happened to happen my last year and so all these black alumni came back and it was really like a quick snapshot of like you know where they were kind of like high school reunion Vibes and I think it was F fting because you really got to see the full spectrum of like just excellence and accomplishment don't get me wrong for sure it was the place to be like it was like CBC on like a thousand for sure yeah but conversely you also saw a lot of Alum who were successful definitionally but also in some ways felt like Shadows of themselves you know and it's was kind of like you know you're here you definitely you clearly are successful you make money you know da d da but you are like you know on your phone can't even get off to like do this you know what I mean and you're kind of like exhausted and all these things it just made me wonder like is is that what we're working toward you know especially when people sell you this is in this context especially for Harvard like at at one point I had to ask myself what exactly I was buying in terms of the brand because it got confusing to me because basically you know we got there and especially in the law school essentially they'll say that there are like four routes that you can take you know and then that's pretty much it it's kind of like you know big law public interest government clerking that's pretty much the situation and it was confusing to me because I was like right but you told me that I was coming out of here with optionality like that I that that it was really like I could do anything and so when did that change you know and so I think that really is what got confusing um for me and so I think what else do I want to say on this front um um I think that was huge um for sure and I also think you have to realize like after everything that you've done to to charart your path and to get where you've gone and also the the things that other people have poured into you to me the biggest regret would be to wake up feeling like I'm living somebody else's life yeah and I think that's kind of how I went about making a lot of my decisions was like am I being the person that I was raised to be and like am I concerned that like basically I'm trying to avoid a midlife crisis you know because I didn't want to sit here and pour all this energy and pour all this money just for 20 years down the line to have it all and feel like this isn't even like who did I build this for so I think that is what I would say and like the societal pressure is one thing but at the end of the day if we Define what is possible based on what has occurred like if if that is the circumference of our imagination then we are setting ourselves up to live small lives so well yeah and and and I think and this is going to feed right into my next question but I I really want to emphasize the point that you made both of you guys made at the end of the day will I be able to sleep at night I that's that's a good if you don't want black to crack you got to be able to sleep child cortis to sleep well you know what I mean exactly it's like can I sleep don't let them snatch all this beautiful melanin like don't let right exactly and and and and I think that's that's really the the the battle that we all have to fight at the end of the day is like yes people may place all these expectations on us but at the end of the day they're not going to be there in our heads at night when we have to you know think about every decision and every you know action that we we took and I think part of that and this this leads to my next question is if you were to write a memoir and you know you guys are both mid-career right now in your professional lives and and everything if you were to write a memoir what would the central title and theme be whether it's a memoir that's focused on a specific event or just a memoir of your life so far um how would you sort of title what you've been through so far okay so because I believe in being Democratic I I will go first because I keep I keep punting you go um so the the like main title for mine because I I have definitely gone on a squiggle but I think my main title would be stop taking questions and I think the sub the subheader would be a life of conscience and curiosity yes because I think it's so like we spend so much time building our lives preparing to field questions from other people based on what their anxieties are so good we could spend so we could spend that time instead just pursuing our Curiosities and if you think about a world where like if we all felt if we all felt like we had empowered imagination we all felt like we had the latitude to really explore and be you know the optic nerves of God or whatever your source is you know what I mean like we would be in a much better situation like right now I think we are almost some times victim to a template based model where it's kind of like you better be able to predict it you better just go down this road and if we have learned anything from covid in 2020 if not before but especially since then it's that like at any given moment the the landscape is subject to change um and I think if if the only way to really navigate those times is really being anchored to ourselves and understanding that if we don't have to worry about what comes because we know that we'll be able to navigate it oh I love that so much stop taking questions and what and what that means and what you know how you can be so limited by doing that that's just I just I'm so I think that's so brilliant and I and kind of that's a theme that's also I really important to me and and kind of goes back to what I was saying about um one of the most important things in my day-to-day life and certainly at these kind of big J junctures has always been to really make as I said make decisions that I'm proud of and and I won't will be able to defend without hesitation and I think that that theme is just so important to me because I know it's almost like a a litmus test of of sorts because I know when I'm on the brink of maybe not doing that or not you know making a choice that I'll feel is something that I'm proud of uh reporting back I you you can kind of VIs really feel it like you don't have that peace anymore they kind you kind of feel like anxious and unsettled and not to say that every decision you make you know you make it and then you're like oh I I feel peaceful because it was the right decision of course you have you know second guessing all the time but there's there's a real different quality to decisions that are made that are not authentic and don't feel good and congruent with who you are and so that I think um and not because I've mastered it by any means but I think that's something that I really think is important um and so that that'll be the theme title I'm very I'm never good at titles I don't know it's academic in me you know we're so used long titles for everything that we're just like oh we always have a title ready to go but you know the thing is it makes me think about that and I still want your title so I'm just I'm buying some time right now the thing that I'm thinking though you know one it's funny because we think that like following the template is going to like guarantee us something you know but it's so interesting to me like even if you do follow the template by virtue of being black women we're going to have to be entrepreneurial yes like no matter what space you end up in and so it's like we forget that that is actually like a key thing and so I'm like no no like no matter what you do you are actually going on an entrepreneurial path it's about whether or not you're going into a context that other people have deemed to be the space where you should be versus a place where you kind of have to like figure it out and then like report back so like I always like invite people to think about it that way because I'm like the world is going to ask you to play a especially at this level where you have access to different things yeah so well said and I think that's something I've really picked up on so far in the Memoir is that all throughout the generations that lead up to Justice Jackson you see a constant nod towards that entrepreneurial B that Chris and you just talked about where in reality entrepreneurship when we think about it we think of startups we think about you know what entrepreneurship looks like today but in reality it's just making something out of nothing you know what I mean it's saying that you know you have parents that grew up in the Deep South where they didn't have the same rights that you have today and you literally had to reinvent what it meant to make money and to raise a family and to raise children in a society that's constantly moving the goal post constantly moving uh the barriers that's allowing you to move forward and you know it's it's it's such a beautiful way of thinking about it because I think a lot of people are like you guys have both been saying are afraid of the Uncharted path they're afraid of uh you know veering off course when in reality when you really think about it this country actually relies on black women's entrepreneurship because if they're not charting the path forward we're seeing this with KLA Harris we're seeing this with so many black women who are taking up leadership positions in this era if they don't chart the part the the path forward I'm not sure who exactly will because a lot of clean up job exactly a lot of cleanup jobs the other thing I want to say though because the mayay like you you hit the nail on the head at least for me in my experience as well where it's like the piece about like basically your body will start talking to you you know and it's funny because we rely so heavily on like Imperial data that lives on a page but like we do we discount the fact that like that is actually that sensory information is data as well you know I mean that we like just casually neglect but I'm like no and like the level of like the way that cortisol interacts with your body the way that you know like people end up having chronic disease and cancer It's like because you're stressed or also you can be misaligned you know and so I think that like by some kind of divine right you know I think black women intuitively are like led by their gut as well as their mind in a way that has it's a marriage that is a lot deeper um and so I feel like we would be remiss to leave that on the table and not also you know what I mean like listen to those cues and like H something's not quite right or it just it sounds beautiful it looks beautiful it's wrapped on you know in perfect wrapping paper actually you know but something about it feels like it might not be mine and that's okay and that's perfectly fine but aame what's your book title huh we were both buying you time like I was like I'm coming back I did cop out yeah that's so funny I love that um so my next question is you know sort of like a pie in the sky one but if you could have a private lunch with Justice Jackson what is one question you would ask her that's hard it's so hard because it's like where to start I know right so it's like just imagine you know you're out at lunch and you know obviously you know she's she's probably one of the most busiest people that I can imagine um or even you know you have a situation like me where it's like uh I literally run into her at commencement and it's like okay I only have like maybe five to 10 minutes max to you know ask her a question um yeah it's like what what's one question you would you would ask it's funny because like all the like traditional questions pop to your mind you know like you're like how does your expectations blah blah um but human to human with my you know kind of cursory understanding of how she is and how she's just so different from a lot of the other kind of like attorneys and lawyers and judges that we interact with I think I would ask her on her hardest day the hardest day like of her life where she felt like the lowest what was her winning argument to herself oh wow that's good I think I want to know [Music] that and that and and and and I think the reason why having such a a gut reaction to that question is we all have something that keeps us going through the highs and lows and sometimes reminding ourselves of that motivating factor or that element that keeps us going it's like man like do you keep it on a sticky note do you have like a note tap on your phone like you know like you know because you know in many ways the Supreme Court can feel very opaque you know what I mean and it's like how do we actually yeah like get at the root of wow I know you see a lot of things both inside and outside of it like what keeps you going I love that question oh I love that question um and it's not and it's also a great question because it's not just limited to her time you know the the court it can really be you know life her lowest life right right and I think you know this question is tough I think because as Kristen said all the like typical questions like come to mind first and you think like oh my goodness like what's it like to be there right now and you know all all that type of stuff and I think but that's important to think about though because I think she uh is in a really unique moment of the Court's history um and I know everybody always says that oh this is unprecedented oh this is unprecedented but there have been Monumental um decisions that she that have been issued from this term she got there um and ever since and I would love to know similar to Kristen's question in in bearing witness to that how has that changed her at all or or has it um wow because it's hard to imagine that it I I I don't even know if I have a prediction as to what that answer could be but I thinkt having she's someone who really thinks a lot about context as your opening quote from her book shows and I know these are the type of questions she grapples with um or too much maybe they're not right now you know maybe that has to be compartmentalized in order for to be the public servant she is and even if we have like a conception of like how the depth to which it could change somebody you know what I mean because like we're not situated like she is you know like I don't know it's just mindboggling right and I think a reason why you know I'm also having a gut reaction to this question is I remember um I was at the national Book Festival uh last week or or two weeks ago and as I was speaking with some authors you know it it can be overwhelming to see that many people in one you know sitting and everyone wants an autograph and everyone wants to do this and stuff like that and I remember you know when I would get to the autograph table I would always uh tell each author like I hope you're okay like I know this can be very overwhelming and you know people are just taking taking taking from you in this moment but I hope you yourself um that you're okay uh and that you can find rest after something like this and I think especially when you're a public servant so if we if we broaden this out to how much black women have been in a position of servitude whether it's public service whether you know historically it's been working in people's homes and things of that sort it's like the focus is never really on them it's just on their labor and what they can for other people so when you take a step back and say how are you actually doing you know what I mean it's almost like that's why I had a gut reaction because it's like oh man like people rarely ask us like how are you doing yourself including ourselves yeah including ourselves yeah you know the whole country can feel like it's on your back especially like you said in these um unprecedented times you know uh and speaking of unprecedented times this is our last question so you know we're officially in election season and and you know part of the desire to create this podcast and get people thinking more historically um especially in this moment that we're living in um what is one issue that you feel like should be at the top of people's minds as they're at the election uh polls or you know filling in their mailin ballot what's one issue that you feel like should be at the top of of of people's minds you're like all of them one issue I feel like the Civic scholar Among Us has to take this question oh wow say the woman who I'm unsure that I have yet to hear a book title that's true I know put in the show notes after okay I'm just like not pointing any fingers just exactly um so what what are what's the main issue what are some of the issues that I think people should be thinking about as they head to the polls in November I mean there are there are so many um I obviously am coming out of an organization that focused heavily on Reproductive Rights yeah um and you know that is a crucial crucial um issue in terms of making sure that you know people have access to the Spectrum of healthare that is necessary um for us to have a healthy society and like the way in which that is not singularly a woman's issue um you know it's like it's for childbearing people it is for men who then end up being single parents because you know black paternal health or whatever the case may be you know and so I think that it is almost like a wraparound societal issue that often times gets overly and improperly stigmatized and and assigned just to to women or childbearing people like I don't like it is all of us um so that's that um and obviously I would say access to just just voting rights access to the polls um yeah you know climate change but then also honestly I would say it's the down ballot stuff it is the state and local those state and local elections those state and local candidates those state and local conversations are actually where our Focus needs to be and I think that as we move out of you know this kind of post trumpian era um thinking about like yes like this is Monumental what we're about to do or attempt to do in November but obviously I also want us to think about like what happens then in terms of like going to midterms and going to our next cycle I just don't want to see us in this situation again and so I think I want to think about how it is that we are actually voting our values but before we can vote our values we also have to live them and I think that like I hope people see themselves as change makers Beyond just the ballot the ballot is a huge way that you can illustrate that but I hope that people feel like they can see themselves as the deci of so many things in their own lives on a day-to-day basis and that start translating into expecting more out of our society because I think we do have the power to build a society in a world that's worthy of us um and I think that for a long time we've start we felt like we had abide by the limitations of what this current system can do um and I think that we have actually an opportunity to start welding a much more expansive compassionate World by virtue of just us demanding it and having more language for it and so I think that's also something to keep in mind is that like November is important but also like if we could paint on this canvas like what would we want to paint yes oh Kristen I really love that and I think it's like exactly right November is important and I would also heavily Echo this stuff about down ballot and um local so many things and you know they remember I always getting a ballot when I lived in DC mailed to me and what and having to just goo do so much Googling and what's an A andc and you know and you really it it's it then you realize you look it up and you realize it's like actually kind of important um and so I think that that uh oh has always stuck with me but I also think person last point about demands is so important is what is thinking thinking about what is really your expectation Beyond election day and before election day um and how are you gonna how are you gonna be involved or participate in a way that ask for those things and um Beyond November and and and what um kind of power you and how can you harness power in communities or in organizing that insist on um more just be you know other than just like kind of the the gesture of of submitting a ballot but not you know the things that have to to come after that that are really critical to improving people's lives and reducing suffering so good so many issues and I I think that's something that I've also been emphasizing uh to everyone that will listen is that you know there are amazing resources like ballot ready that helps people for example preview their ballot and the issues and the people that will be on it uh whether it's you know from the presidential election all the way down to your local school board election um and just making sure that people are as informed as possible because I think you know we we we can't ignore the history that's behind a lot of the things that are under attack right now and mo most of that rooted in voting rights you know what I mean people literally died for us to have the right to vote and the least we can do is be informed voters well we are bringing this podcast episode to a close thank you so much Kristen and M this has been a phenomenal conversation um you know like I said earlier one thing I love about uh black Harvard women is that we know how to show up for each other especially for a last minute event like this um but yeah I'm so happy that we had time to talk about katoni Brown Jackson's new Memoir Lovely One published by penguin random house uh wherever you get books trust me it is there support black women authors it's so important like I said the whole principle and Mission behind this podcast and a lot of my public scholarship is making sure that black women are no longer treated as a footnotes uh throughout history and part of that is realizing that you do not have to be a black woman to enjoy the intellectual contributions of black women um so I'm so excited um and thank you everyone for tuning into to 100 historic black women you should know by elction day uh