Career Journey welcome back to behind the play my name is Alex Adams and I am joined by someone I've admired for from afar for for quite a while and and lucky enough to to be joined on the show with by Justin Bourne of of sportset uh you know you I'm people know you from the real Kipper and born um you've been writing doing a lot in the hockey Sphere for for quite a while but uh thanks so much for taking the time and and joining the show do do are you getting that hockey itch already you know it's been the the summer for a long time do you feel like you're you're ready for for training camp and everything to to get started yeah yeah thanks for having me man I really appreciate it I'm fascinated by anyone who does this work and like yourself you said you're a psychotherapist so I could use the therapy this can work as a two for one session um but no I I am getting the edge I you know how I know it's happening is Nick Roberts in signed today and I cared you know like mid summer you like see all the signings stuff you're yeah whatever like I'll process that when it's time it felt like time today like I really had opinions on it and like that's in season it's just like I I want to get them out that's like part of having the show and I felt like that today so I'm I'm ready to go well there's so many Nick Roberts and opinions out there you know I just I need to well we'll get to that a bit later that many he's good he's cheap they need him they need a left Winger it's it's perfect yeah um before we you know we go to the Leafs I you know you've had a very interesting career um you know playing the game at a high level and then obviously becoming uh you know a sports writer working for the the Leafs for a while too just maybe tell us a little about your your career journey and kind of how you fell in love with the game obviously your dad was a a very good NHL player as well but just talk a little about the the beginnings of of Justin Bourn falling in love with with the game of Pocky you know I think one of the very different things about my own path was that I wasn't despite having a dad who played I wasn't forced into it or started young where I was in summer camps or anything like that I just played because I liked it and you know I played house hockey and all the way through peeee I played house hockey and you know I was good at house hockey but I didn't I was never worn down by the sport and I see a bunch of kids now that are you know eight years old and on skating treadmills and all that and so I just I really grew to love it kind of naturally my parents were separated so my dad wasn't around so much to uh you know people think that would have been a big part of my story but it wasn't and so I found the love for the game uh as I got a little bit older and I I grew and always kind of scored at the house level and it translated and translated and I guess end up being what you would call Late Bloomer and I really felt like I kind of figured it out as I went it was just let's just see if I can get to the next level and it worked for quite a while which was good but ultimately paid for my education um and it was a good behind the scenes into how the whole Hockey World works because when I did get hurt playing in the miners uh eventually I found I'll say this I always felt as a player like I was a bit of a double agent like I always felt like I was observing what was happening like I wasn't a part of it you had these people that were just from this hockey obsessiveness and had like really strived to become great in hockey and I was kind of just like I get to be here too you know uh that was kind of like it felt like I I don't know even though I am very much of hockey with my background I I felt almost out of place so when when I did get to see all that and then I got to kind of translate that into some writing which I did when I was hurt while playing the ECHL I really loved it and I loved talking about the game and evaluating it and as we said before we turn on the cameras here I went to school for psychology and I love trying to figure out why coaches are the way they are and players are and the pressure and I just I love that part of it so even though I was a pretty good player and kicked it around a little bit it now feels like this is what I was supposed to be doing within the sport and I'm very content doing what I do what type of advantages do you think you know now being on the other side you know being in the media that having that perspective of playing at a high level and as you said knowing what coaches are like in in meetings and GMS and a locker room like really feels like like how did that kind of affect the way you wrote in your opinion you know I think the biggest thing is I like to write like I want to sound like a hockey player still I want to sound like I'm in the dressing room and I feel like there's a very particular Cadence and style of in hockey media and hockey writing and so when I started writing I still wanted to sound like a hockey player and so um you had to convince an Editor to leave all the colloquialisms in there and the you know the slang and initially I was all I wrote with Gunna and you know instead of going to and like really wanted to sound you know sound like a hockey player and so the fact that I became interested in like analytics and video work and some of the minutia of the game I think being knowing how to talk like a hockey player from the dressing room allows people to take me semi-seriously when I'm like pushing up my glasses and talking about EXP Ed goal saved above you know whatever I can still sound like someone who you know can swear and spit and do all the other things that you do in locker rooms maybe with that um going to you know maybe tell us a little about that transition from from be you know ending your career uh you know I think I read that you were journaling a little bit throughout your your hockey career that was kind of your form of writing but then to to take that step from going from a hockey career to to to becoming a sports writer yeah you know this uh this business is not lucrative and so when I when I made the transition um hockey news is paying me 15 bucks per article which you know tough to uh tough to make a living out of that but I did appreciate the exposure right like that's a legitimate outlet and at the time it meant a lot and so I had just finished playing that year and my wife had just finished her master's uh degree and so we could basically pick anywhere in the world to live H you know it didn't really matter um I felt like i' had been ECHL all-star teams I felt like I could pretty much pick an ECHL team and they would want me so we decided to go to Phoenix where my mom had a place they offered my wife a good job and I thought I could play for the road runners while I figured it out and keep writing uh after we made that decision the road runners folded so I was like I guess I'm a writer now we had moved there and my wife said um you know let's why don't you take take a year and see if you can make a living at it you know we we lived pretty modestly and I just spent a year every day you know running my own blog tweeting um you know incessantly and just seeing if anyone would want my work and you eventually it's like all right I'm making 15 bucks for hockey news and then USA Today was giving me $100 every two weeks and then you know you started to like kind of Peace meal this like little bit of income together Twitter following grew um I end up doing some eastn hockey like Twitter account stuff which you know Social Media stuff back then and I was just piecing it together enough that we felt like progress was there when we kind of got to the end of the year and right in that summer when it was like okay I might have to find something else to do you know to make a living uh the score called from Toronto and said you know can you be our hockey guy we're launching this new blog and they let me do a year in Arizona with the understanding that I would move back up to Toronto so I ended up in Arizona for three years total and then we moved to Toronto to to work for the score and off I went from there and you know from the score you you eventually went to uh the Leafs and and worked as a a video coach under Kyle dubis and you know Sheldon Keefe as well for for the Marley maybe just talk about that whole experience that it feels like you know as a going from the writing side to then being a a coach but you played at a high level too so it was warranted but that that transition what was that like for you you know I think there's a sense where still just kind of figuring out what I wanted to be and what I wanted to do within this space and you know when looking around the hockey media landscape it's like what what isn't there much of that I can do and it's X's and O's like no one it's incredible if you actually read hockey media work there's almost nothing on X's and O's like there are some Niche places now that you can find it way more now than there ever was you would never just get a beat reporter talking about a system and what it actually was aside from a vague reference to a system so I would break down goals and just say it's actually this guy's fault you know the commentator said this but here's what happened and here's why and um people loved it that was that was like the first thing I had that I was like oh this is a thing that people like that isn't anywhere else and I would get when I would write those pieces I would get DMS from people in hockey that'd be like yeah you know that guy does that all the time he's actually brain dead or you know like whatever the like you know would be but dubis and Keith separately over a year or two wrote me about articles they obviously stay you know they were young guys that were new you know sort of in the hockey space too and so they stayed connected with the media and so after a couple years of corresponding with them Keef eventually gets hired with the Marley's and uh Babcock's with the Leafs and Babcock was like I want more video people give me the Marley's video guy and it was like November and they didn't have a video guy and Kyle and I had been communicating and he knew I could do it and he was like what do you think and I was like you know let's go you know it's just I went in to have a meeting with Sheldon to see if we get along we got along and and the funniest part about that is when they had me in they're like all right so here's the computer server and you just take that everywhere with you it you know connects these five laptops which connects they started talking about all like the It stuff and I was like wait like there like it was part of the video coach job was like help making people's computers work and I was like I don't I don't know how to do any of this they're like well it's part of the gig so so I learned on the job in real time which you know how to do some it troubleshooting which leads to some awkward moments in front of a hockey team trying to get like a projector to work by you know blowing on the cartridge like it's an old Nintendo or something but uh it ended up working out I and I know you said with that experience like going back to to the Working with Dubas/Keefe sports media world that it was like this great education as you said um maybe how how many times when you're in the room with with key for with dubis did you did your views align and how many times did they maybe differ yeah first thing I'll say is those guys are really smart hockey people and they don't cut Corners you know there's no like willy-nilly they really wanted everything thoroughly evaluated they wanted everyone's opinion who had one um I was really impressed with their ability to not just this is what I think and go with it they really hurt everyone I would say my views my view of and Sheldon kefs were like really closely aligned like we really saw the game the same way which I was very fortunate uh for that um you know wasn't wasn't at the best of my mental health at that time I really look back at those years and recognize like I could have been better for those guys and I've I've since told them like here's where I was at then I it could have been better you know yeah um but I I think hockey wise we were we really closely aligned and that led you know Sheldon trusted me very quickly and the next year the second season with them you know I was handed four teams in the league and they said you're you know you specialize in these teams you're going to build the meetings for these teams we want you to specialize in faceoffs and if you want to run the faceoff meeting in front of the team you can like they they handed me things this second year um so I knew I knew that was going well I just personally wasn't in a place to you know I had a young son who was just born the traveling was hard we don't have family in Toronto and it was just at a point they did offer me another year but it just felt at the time like I would be better off taking a job in media where I knew where I would be you know not not traveling around Upstate New York I'm sure you love Rochester um uh maybe kind of going a bit full circle like you you've now been at Sports Center for a little while now and uh maybe my last kind of question about that side of things is what's like having a a radio show or podcast as well like it's everything it's everywhere but um and having you know being with Kipper I know it was maybe a bit intimidating at at the beginning just to be with him who's you know a big personality uh how do you how do you prepare for a two-hour show every day for for months yeah uh it was intimidating because Kip and I didn't really know each other but I was excited to work with them and I I will say uh for Kip he is he is uh he knows what he's doing he's a smart guy you know like he he plays a I'm not going to say he plays a character but he is aware that sometimes we need to be bigger and you know Larger than Life and he is so smart and thorough and he always comes with insights that I don't have and he doesn't tell me before the show if he's got any tidbits like he is a fun guy to work with in that way and it took a week or two for us to find our groove and you know after that you know we started to really make some or you know have traction preparation wise we used to do a lot used to meet hours before the show you know what do you think of that what do you think of this hit you know and we'd have these conversations and then you'd go on air and you already know what the guy thinks and you're trying to reenact the conversation and it just comes off as inauthentic and you miss the best points which are shocking the guy and so now we prepare way less than we used to which I think you hear about a lot of good radio shows is you know we say like do you see that hit last night and he says more than anything he says before the show he says stop stop you know save it save it he wants he doesn't want to hear my opinion just okay we're gonna talk about the hit okay we're gonna talk about that goal you know Kip might be like hey I want to talk about Tampa Bay's defense today and I'll be like okay you know that's weird you know but like maybe he's heard something and so I'll just know to kind of like look into what's going on there a little bit so it is um it's a lot of fun and I'm Writing a book very fortunate to get to work with him he's just he's a pro and he knows that we are an entertainment product so I give him a lot of credit for that well I I love the show and and you guys are great also shout out to Sami as well who's who's great out there absolutely he's awesome but um maybe I think I I do want to just touch upon your book because I I found it was very inspiring and you know opening up and having a men and and everything with you know and I guess just for you you said something interesting that it was almost like a tattoo that you wanted to to to kind of get off your your chest or I guess imprinted into a book I don't know yeah or for that but um maybe what was that process like for you to to write you know a memoir and and kind of dig deep into that like how how tough it was it how just what was that process like for you yeah you know it's it was a learning experience and I think it was a lot like therapy where you know I'd write something about the experience I had you know and a A Book Like That is not necessarily a history of or report of it's not you know it's my sort of feeling and vibe that I had at those times so I would write that and I give uh Nick Garrison a penguin publishing a lot of credit because he would come back when I would send up chapters and he'd be like this part here you know where where's your dad in that part like you know your dad won four staining cups where you know what's going on there you know I you know all right did that bother you that he wasn't involved and it's like no don't make me think about it you know it's just like so the writing of the book made me process things and look at things and it was really healthy for me in the end and the best part is those now are the parts of the books I appreciate the most they're the parts that bring people to me in my email and DMS that people connect with so you know I think think I sort of wrote my story in hockey how I became a media guy and my thoughts on some hockey things and you know through the process of I also have an uncle named Ken Juba and Saskatoon who's great um working with Ken and Nick and having them go this is great can we go deeper here you know those questions gave it whatever value I think it has whatever lasting value I hope the book will have well I I think you know I mean I never played High l hockey like you but it's definely um you know men in the game of hockey don't tend to open up and it's always you know takes a lot of courage to to open up so I appreciate you doing that and it's a great book and you're an amazing writer so it was it was a very uh great and fascinating read I want to go as best as I can segue to the Leafs because just why not yeah um you touched upon Robertson so I'm gonna lead it off there just because it's the headline of the day so you have all these thoughts maybe your your thoughts on the Leafs siging Nick Robertson to a one-year deal uh I think 875,000 Robertson deal 875 you know it was a deal where Robertson could have screwed himself pretty bad I thought by if he decided to dig in and say trade me there's not enough trade value there for the Leafs to excuse me to cow to that demand and say oh okay you know well we better get a sixth for this guy or you know whatever you think the pick is it's not going to be enough you're better off with Nick Robertson so to me they were G to have to a well then you're not going to play if you're going to sit at home you're not going to sign a contract we need because I look back at dubis and neander and now it's like would it have been better to make Willie sit out that whole year the first year you know and kind of show people that he couldn't be pushed around probably the answer is yeah probably would have been better and I think tree living being new I just don't think you could have he he he would have given Nick Robertson what he wanted so Nick's choices were to dig in and watch hockey or at least not be there for the start of Camp when you start to fall behind lines are being made you're finding chemistry you're having you know you're everyone is behind and you have the chance to score some goals because there's mistakes so I I think he's going to be there on the first day of camp he's at Great Value um you know they're incentivized to make him work they need help at left wi he what he shoot in 15 times last year he played third line and 13 minutes a game like there's no doubt in my mind that with some opportunity this guy can score 25 goals and you score 25 goals and you're 24 years old you get to then go to a team and go now I want money and they you know yeah and at least you know the team has if he wants to get traded he has some value it's just everything it was the best thing he could have done was not hold out for another 100 Grand now it's G to pay off for him later um you know one guy who's who's also going to be going into a contract negotiation or maybe not who knows but uh is is marter and and heading into his final year of his contract as an outsider I don't really see where the like it feels like a no- win situation for both sides just how do you think this plays out and Marner's future and do you think like what are the chances he signs during the year do you think it's just an offseason thing at this point what do you think happens there with with Marner you know I don't know like nothing you know like I it's tough to imagine anything happening it's I guess they're not going to walk him to UFA are they you know like it just feels like that's what's going to happen where he's like give me a ridiculous deal which you know they have proven that and I say they because he is a camp he is not one man he is a party of people there they have proven themselves to be inflexible and if they have larger demands I don't think they're going to say let's do the team a favor and I don't see the team wanting to give them eight times you know whatever the number is 12 I don't know I just that's hard to believe too so I don't know I I think it it'll probably come down to some weird pressure point around trade deadline like is this you know is there a way to convince him to go somewhere else or not and I I think he probably just stays in the end I don't know walks that's maybe that's the most likely I currently as of September 10th do not have a good answer I mean you know what what's fair is that I don't think there is a good answer so um I I it I guess maybe with that like where is the Hope if you're a Leafs fan like I know you've been on this like why are we running it back it's been three four five years but where where's maybe that little glimmer of hope if if you're a Leafs fan heading into this season dude there's lots of hope there's lots of Hope people talking about this Leaf team ah it's the same team it's like well first off you know you had 102o team last year or whatever and I think they got a little bit better this offseason I think their D is going to be a bit better Joe wall you know is can he give them a healthy enough season I think it's possible and I like stolar a lot too so they can get decent goal tending you know I think you're going to get Improvement for Matthew NIS I think Bobby McMahon can be better I think Robertson can score more goals like I think there is hope there and you still have a COR of just like ridiculously talented players to you know to continue to to separate yourself from the pack so I don't look at this team as like you know they're in decline or on the way out or anything I think they're going to be really good I actually think Florida got you know lucky is not the word but I think the leaf should contend for the division this year um it's still a very good team as frustrating as it is that they can't get over the hump they're still a good hockey team and you know if you you have a chip in a chair long enough sometimes you win the pot so they're they're going to be in the mix again we'll see if they make some great moves at the deadline or not but uh they're going to be all right do do you think with that um that they still have a possibility to be a Contender or has that maybe ship sailed at least for this Leafs cup contenders year with all the the the tarz contract still you know one year left and then of course Marner at 11 million as well and just those contracts in their final year you know yeah no they can be a cup Contender for sure for sure they can like I I don't I know last year's game seven in overtime you know in round one but you know that that's a pretty good hockey team and they got nothing from Mitch Marner and I know he's had some years where that's happened I don't think it's going to happen forever I don't like I I I think it's it's possible that even if he's okay you know they're so much better if he's a point per game guy version of himself um you know they had terrible luck with Matthews and neander injuries in that first round and I don't I don't think the ship is sailed and I do think that you know if they show themselves to be competitive I think they'll continue to try to make moves so you know H maybe I'm just the ultimate Ru but I'm I'm not going a whole year just Bea my head against the wall saying no you know eore hoan they can't win this is a team that can be in the mix for sure uh does does Matthews get to 70 this year no definitely not definitely not like maybe 55 like I just think Ruby is gonna you know want him to be a different player and I don't think that includes being a guy who gets 30 assists you know I I think that you got contract year Marner you know maybe Matthews is a 60 assist guy this year maybe it's a higher point total but I don't think he's just going to have that giant uh 70 goal season this year I I hope I'm wrong I love watching it but I'm guessing no maybe maybe with that on on baru and you know you knowing Sheldon Keef so well what do you think the the the main differences might be between this team coached under breu compared to to years prior with Kei I think fundamentally it's the very thing I said about dubis and neander that that I I think the the players will know that there will be expectations and repercussions this leaves the previous leafes teams felt like you know the core guys ran the show they could play terrible they're out there at the end of the game they could play great they're out there at the end of the game it just it didn't seem to matter I thought Keef and I still believe Keef is a great coach but I do think their belief that elite players make all the difference went to a point where they let them have control of the team and Ru is not going to do that he's going to be the man in charge and uh I I can see it being a good fit these guys knowing that it's No Nonsense when they have to come answer to him in the video session the next day yeah no it it'll be definitely a fascinating year in leaf land uh do you have a Before I Let You Go I always ask guests just you know their Stanley Cup pick I know it's way way too early but it's always f for f um do do you have one as we sit here on September 10th I think it's really hard to not say that the Edington Oilers are up there you know that I really like Victor arvitson they got Jeff Skinner whatever you think of where he's at in his career they just they were a very good team last year and if you rack your brain for other teams like Colorado's very good again Dallas is very good again it's probably their best competition there and then on the other side I just I don't know Florida lost a couple of pieces in their end and I guess a dark Co might horse might be New Jersey who I think douge Hamilton healthy they get a goenda new coach Jack Hughes stays healthy like things could go better for them but as of today I'll take the Oilers sorry yeah no I hope so too I I I still feel as though as as he said um I feel like the Oilers were the better team in that Stanley Cup Final even though they lost it but uh bosski was just believable for a couple games and the Oilers top end is no no nothing like it in the league right now yeah just you just cackle sometimes just seing McDavid set up dry cidal and Orman it's it's ridiculous but um thank you so much Justin for for taking the time and and coming on is there anything you want to uh plug for you know your show just anything coming up at sportset that people should listen or keep their eyes and ears yeah uh real Kipper and borne is uh a few weeks away I know a date and I you can't say it for some reason but we a few weeks away um and then uh preseason games I think start September 22nd and Kip and I will be on the panel and we'll be ready to rock uh right away right out of the gates awesome well well I'm excited to see Nick Robertson in action on SE 22 and thanks so much for for taking the time and sharing your story and uh excited to to be listening and seeing you on TV throughout the entire season all right thanks Alex thanks for having me man