S04E06: THE IDAHO STUDENT MURDERS

coming up on this episode of crime family the University of Idaho student killings that took place in Moscow Idaho just two weeks ago from this recording date it had been reported that the roommates were concerned about one of the others being passed out in her room which prompted them to call 911 not knowing that they actually had a quadruple murder on their hands well what well to me when I'm looking at it it looks literally like blood like I can see it like what else would that be like most crime scenes when you see blood that's what it kind of looks like yeah that's what kind of makes me think if you're trying to sneak into a house and not be noticed you probably would go through the back because there's no direct houses facing that back door so there's still a lot we don't know was very sketchy very suspicious and ultimately very sad for these four University students yeah and it has only been two weeks so I mean I it's super early still in the investigation [Music] [Music] hi everyone welcome back to crime family I'm your co-host AJ I'm here with my two sisters Stephanie and Katie just like always before we start to today's episode we just want to let you know about our Patron Community if you like the show and you want exclusive extras like add free content bonus episodes a private Community to connect with us free merch and an exclusive new true crime series doc talk consider becoming a patron doc talk is like a book club for true crime documentaries each month we'll select a new Doc to watch and discuss it in full we'll take your questions and discuss the topics you want you have access to this exclusive new series at a tier three membership as well as all the other extras I mentioned join us on patreon to continue the True Crime conversation and build a community we'd love to have you by signing up today you'll also get automatic access to our bonus episodes including one about Sarah Boon known as the suitcase killer one about the updates in the Adon Sayed case and a Halloween one so check out the show notes for the link to become a patron today or go to patreon.com crime family podcast also we've recently launched our exclusive merch store on Redbubble we're so excited to have the official crime family logo and designs on everything everything from t-shirts to stickers to mugs and hats check out our merch store to help support the show at the link in the show notes and for today's episode I'm going to be talking about the University of Idaho student killings that took place in Moscow Idaho just two weeks ago from this recording date so because this case is still ongoing and it's still unsolved and it's developing there's still a lot we don't know and there are lots of theories going around out there but very few concrete answers and I know for myself I've seen this case coming up a lot in my social media and on the news it's kind of everywhere right now so it's very high profile and it's kind of perplexing me and I have a lot of lot of questions and I just feel like I need to talk it out with people so that's why I'm going to be discussing this case in today um and like I said there's still lots of unknowns because it's still so recent like I said it only happened two weeks ago from the recording date so things are still coming in every day so there's for sure going to be lots of updates as we go along so in this episode I'm going to be walking you through the timeline of events the 911 call and the list of facts about what we know as of now and what information we still don't know and hope will be coming somewhat soon so uh this case has hit the news in a big way and has become um a case that has gained a lot of widespread attention and around the clock coverage and it's proven to be very perplexing and I can't really wrap my head around it so it was just before noon on Sunday November 13th when police in Moscow Idaho received a 911 call from a University of Idaho student saying that one of their roommates and friends was unconscious in her room when police arrived at the home they found the murdered bodies of four people inside the home the four victims were 21-year-old Madison Mogan 21-year-old Kaye gonzalves 20-year-old Zena kodal and 20-year-old Ethan shapen all four were students at the University of Idaho and all four victims had been stabbed in their beds which were on the second and third floors of the home three of the victims Madison Mogan Kaye Gonzalez and Zaya kotal all lived in the home and then the fourth victim Ethan chapen was just there he was sleeping over with his girlfriend Zena at the time of the murders so it was a big three-story six-bedroom home and as far as we know so there's only five people who were living in the house and there was one vacant bedroom but because Ethan was there staying the night there were six people in the home the night that this incident happened so the because there were six people in the home and there were four that were murdered there were two people that were not harmed and both of them had bedrooms on the main floor of the house and they were not harmed they did not wake up or hear anything during the murders allegedly and so the next morning it had been reported that the roommates were concerned about one of the others being passed out in her room which prompted them to call 911 not knowing that they actually had a quadruple murder on their hands CNN reports that the two girls quote summoned friends to the residence because they believed one of the second floor victims had passed out and was not waking up end quote police had never released the audio or a transcript of what the 911 call contained and they also have not said who it was that actually called and initially spoke to the operator but has been reported that the 911 operator spoke to several people who were at the scene during the call and the police have said that one of the two surviving roommates cell phones was used for the call so for some reason they're being very Cy about the details of the 911 call so they aren't really they were very hesitant to even say what they have said and they they wouldn't release audio of the call they haven't released the transcript and they when asked they wouldn't really say like who was the one who called or whose cell phone was used or who they spoke to none of that information was anything that they were releasing which was kind of frustrating for a lot of people and I know for the families and stuff too there's a lot of ation with the lack of information that's coming out from the police and that's just one example of it when police arrived on the scene the door to the home was open now I don't know for sure all reports just say that the door was open I don't know if that means that it was like wide open like actually physically open or if it just means that it was unlocked but the door to the home was open and police did not notice any signs of forced entry or any damage to the home so Kaye Gonzalez's dog was also found in the residence alive and unharmed and the dog has been given over to Animal Services once they discovered the dog there and that part about the dog is going to come in a little bit later as somewhat important potentially so all four victims were pronounced dead right afternoon um as soon as the police arrived on the scene and the investigation immediately began into what happened that night police Were Somehow able to determine that all four victims were killed between 3 and 4 a.m. so that would have been roughly 8 to 9 hours before the discovery of the bodies so the police haveed out the two surviving roommates or the friends that were at the home when the police arrived as suspects so they don't think that they actually had anything to do with it now I just want to go back to the details of the 911 call or what we know about it because they there's a few things to me that seem very odd so the police have come out and said that the person who called 911 reported that an unconscious person so my my question is you know they probably woke up so you know I'll get into it a little B later but they were all out the night before at like different parties around town and so you know it was a Sunday morning so they the two roommates that had survive you know they probably woke up you know 10 o'clock or whatever and for some reason they were concerned that one of the roommates was maybe passed out in her room because maybe they saw that she had drank a lot the night before or maybe they thought you know they just wanted to check on her but when they called they said that there was an unconscious person so they didn't say you know there's someone dead in their bed there's blood everywhere so to me that suggests that they didn't actually go into the room because I feel like if they went into the room they would have seen I mean the police came out and said later that it was a very bloody scene as you would imagine just based on the details that I'll get into so the fact that they didn't mention anything about the blood they didn't mention anything about them being dead makes me think that they didn't actually enter the room which is also weird cuz they said that they were trying to get her attention and she wasn't answering so like they're probably knocking at the door so maybe the door was locked that makes me think the door was locked they couldn't actually get in because otherwise they would probably just open the door right to check on her so if that's the case it's very weird that the door would be locked because how you C you can't lock the door from the outside so how does someone go in kill someone and then leave with the door locked behind them it's very very odd but you can lock a door from the outside depending on what kind of lock it is right like one of those like little doorknob push locks yeah but then they would have been able to unlock it from the outside too no I mean you can lock it from the inside you lock it the door knob and then shut the the door now locked yeah but then how did the person get out like someone goes into the room to kill them and then the door's open they they lock it through the the door knob while it's still open and then shut it and and now it's locked that's happened to me before like I mean you can lock you can lock yourself out of a room with those kind of locks and that could happen in this situation but um that's true yeah if it's if it was that kind of lock like the door knob blck and I feel like it would have to be I mean I just I'm assuming that the door door was locked and they couldn't get in cuz otherwise if they're that concerned and the door is unlocked you think they would just open the door and like peek in right if they're really concerned that their friend is passed out in the room yeah that's true were all the doors locked for all the dead people um so they haven't released those details we just know that the door to whoever bedroom they were concerned about I think it was Zena I think cuz I think it was on the second floor but whoever room that was they were concerned about the person inside being passed out so and I'm assuming like they would have had to have not been in the room because like I said if they had been in the room and saw the room I'm assuming it you know the police have said it's a very bloody crime scene so they would have mentioned that in the 911 call you'd think that there's blood everywhere yeah that's what I was thinking when you were first talking about it there somebody passed out and I was like well if why wouldn't they say any more about it like there's blood everywhere like she's been stabbed so yeah they Pro it's probably likely they didn't see her yeah and like the police initially were responding to a call of an unconscious person so going into there they police didn't even know what they were walking into you know the call wasn't oh there's someone dead in their bedroom it's oh like she's unconscious you know um and let alone for dead people so but how did she know there she was unconscious if she didn't go in the check well she doesn't know well she just said like she said that she was concerned about her and she wasn't answering them you know so she probably like maybe saw her the night before and knew she was really drunk and then like the next morning is still sleeping at like 11:00 11:30 well the call was at 11:58 so they're you know that time they're concerned she's not answering when they're knocking on the door you know they're probably thinking like oh I hope she's okay you know what I mean yeah the door's if the door's locked then it's like they know she's in there but not answering so there's a a problem yeah yeah exactly so they were just concerned and then they called friends over cuz they were concerned I guess that was their first thing to do was to call some other friends over and then they called 911 and then I would have tried to bust the door down to be honest if that if that was that concerned about my friend but I guess I don't know that's just me well I feel like nine times out of 10 people like I don't know I feel like people just I don't know they don't want to cause a scene I mean she even though she is calling 911 but you know what I mean I feel like for whatever reason she didn't and also I don't know these details like none like I said they're being very Cy about the details of the 911 call I'm just thinking in my mind like she's they have released that the call was for an unconscious person so that leads me to believe that she didn't go on the call screaming saying there's blood everywhere and she's murdered you know what I mean like that wasn't the nature of the call when she called so had makes me think that obviously she was outside of the room so so like I said that the police have ruled out these two surviving roommates and the friends that were there at the scene when the police arrived as suspects so they don't think any of them were involved in The Killing so autopsies of the bodies of the for victims were completed but results have not yet been released like I said it's only been two weeks so there's still things that lots of stuff that's going to be coming out that we don't know yet all four victims were stabbed multiple times with what they're describing as a fixed blade knife the weapon was never found so they don't even have a murder weapon actually that they' found at all yet some of the victims had defensive wounds on their hands suggesting that they did fight with their attacker in some way before being killed there were no signs of sexual assault on any of the victims and it's unknown at this time if it was just one attacker or multiple attackers who were there that night so already things are very strange if there's defensive wounds and obviously they're fighting with their attacker how does nobody hear that they're probably screaming so it's very weird that no one else in the home would hear that if they're like screaming a lot and fighting with their attacker so and the people and the two surviving roommates said that they you know were sleeping they never heard anything at all um so you know when they woke up the next morning there was nothing that they were suspicious about because obviously they hadn't heard anything the night before so just very kind of strange circumstances right off the bat police were able to kind of backtrack a little bit and give a little bit of information about what the four victims were doing the night before the murders or the night of the murders just earlier in the night so all four victims were out at separate parties in town the night the murders took place so Zaya kodal and her boyfriend Ethan shapen they were both at an oncampus party at Sigma Kai fraternity from 8 to 9 p.m. and Reports say that they returned to the home just before 2:00 a.m. so I don't really know that like 5 hour time frame between 9900 p.m. when they left the party and then 2: a.m. when they get home I don't know where they were in that 5 hour time frame but they did get home just before 2 Madison Mogan and Kaylee Gonzalez were out at another bar that night called the corner club and then they can be seen on surveillance footage ordering food from a food truck at 1:41 a.m. and CNN reports that the girls ordered about $10 worth of food and they waited about 10 minutes for the food to be prepared and then they can seem walking out of view of the camera shortly after that and then they get a ride home and arrive back at the house at 1:56 a.m. so a neighbor's security camera actually captured the girls arriving home at this time and that's how they know that they arrived at 1:56 a.m. and the manager of the food truck Joseph Woodall says that the two girls were acting normal and did not seem to be in any danger at all based on their demeanor and based on this timeline all the victims were back at the home by 1:56 a.m. which would have been about 1 to 2 hours before the murders occurred cuz remember police said that they believe they were murdered between 3:00 and 4:00 a.m. and the two surviving roommates were already back at the home by 1:00 a.m. so did that security camera not catch like some random person coming into their house as of now no they've never there are no suspects and there's never that's never been released so if they have that that they're not putting that out there so okay yeah very weird um maybe I'll explain a little bit later that maybe there's a reason for that um based on like some theories that are going around but yeah that we just know that the the security the neighbors like ring cam um at their home captured the girls coming home at 1:56 a.m. and for the longest time the police were actually saying that it was 1:45 a.m. and then you know their families were adamant and they said no it's 156 because I guess they had seen the footage the ring cam footage or they just knew it was 156 and the police were still saying 145 um which might not seem like a big deal but you know 11 minutes is a long you know time frame when you're talking about you know when you're trying to count minutes and hours that people are where they are you know 11 minutes can be a big deal so then the police did retract it and they did say yes it's 1:56 a.m. was the time so two people from this timeline that I just mentioned have been also been ruled out as suspects so one of the people that's been ruled out is a man that was seen in the surveillance footage of the food truck so he's wearing a hoodie and can be sort of seen like kind of hovering by the girls watching them as they order their food he can also be seen chatting with a different group of people who motion to him that the girls are walking off you know like he's talking and they're saying like oh like you know they're leaving so then when he sees that he walks off and then he kind of like Walks Behind them but then he waves to the girls and then he walks away in a different direction so it kind of looked like he might have been sort of watching them or looking kind of suspicious but police said they have ruled him out as a suspect also the other person that they've ruled out is is the person who gave the two girls a ride home at first it was reported that it was an Uber ride but then the record was corrected and now they say that it was not an Uber it was like a private third party who drove them home so we don't know exactly what that means or who that was but that driver who would turn out to be one of the last people to see the girls alive has been ruled out by investigators as well I don't know if you mentioned it already but besides the boyfriend that was staying over was there anybody else that night in the house besides the roommates um so we don't know well we know that there were six people in the home the time that the murders are said to have happened so the four victims and the two other roommates so they were the only ones who were said to be in the home at that time whether there was people in the home earlier in the night we don't know that at all for sure or I mean the police haven't released that information like again the police are always the police always know more than they release so like they they might know that but that's not been out there I was just wondering maybe they had like friends over like a gathering earlier in the evening and something went wrong or whatever and some guy came back and well all six of them were out at separate parties so I don't think they had people over I mean there have been reports out there that say that this was kind of a big like a known party house you know it was a huge like three-story like six bedroom home like it's a huge house so you know they have a lot of parties there so there are were always a lot of people coming and going all the time and people who were fre quently at the house but that night you know like I said the two of them were at the sigma Kai fraternity party two of them were at that other club and then the other two roommates were home by 1:00 a.m. doesn't say where they were at but they were home by one so they were all out that night so I don't think they had a party that night at the house nobody else has like boyfriends or girlfriends that they know of no I mean they might I don't know but no one else that was there okay I I was just curious cuz maybe it was somebody they anyways all right yeah like I said there's still a lot we don't know but maybe the police know a little bit more I mean they probably do but something else that came up during their early investigation was that there is a series of phone calls that were made to Jack Dua believe that's how you pronounce it and he was the ex-boyfriend of Kaylee Gonzalez and between 2:26 a.m. and 2:52 a.m. Kaylee made Seven calls to him all the calls went unanswered and then Madison Mogan so that was the other roommate also placed three unanswered calls to him as well so kayle's family have stood by Jack and they say that the breakup between he and Kaylee was amicable and that the two remained really close friends they say that Jack is like family to them and they do not consider him a suspect or anything at all they also say that it's not unusual for Kaye to call several times like she would often do that with other family members as well she would call and call and call until someone answered even if it was not an emergency or if it was something not super serious she was known to call multiple times so they don't even think the fact that she called seven times at that time of night was suspicious and so they don't really look too much into that the police said that they are still looking into the phone calls as part of the investigation but Jack himself has been ruled out as a suspect according to reports so as you can tell they're ruling a lot of people out but there's still no suspects as of right now so they're just releasing a lot of information about who they don't think it is but nothing about who they think it might be and one other interesting thing that's perplexing me is that the news media and the police actually captured images of a red blood-like substance on the outside of the home it's like near the Bottom by the concrete foundation and the red substance is in a dripping motion so it's like it has been dripping and gravity you know it's taking it along its path like you it looks like you know when water is dripping down like you know the the pattern it makes so that's definitely what it's looking like rather than doesn't look like blood splatter or you know someone rubbed up against it and got blood there like it looks like it's dripping from somewhere and now the substance has not been confirmed that it's blood as of yet you know it still has to of course be tested in a lab to confirm um but it is deemed a suspicious blood-like substance and if you look at the images that have been released of this substance so there is a pipe that's right near there so it could be something totally unrelated that's dripping from this pipe that has like a reddish brownish color but if it is blood this leads to many more questions so how did Blood get on theide side of the home near the concrete foundation at the bottom it's very very weird police have said that it was a very bloody crime scene as you would expect with a quadruple stabbing but I just can't understand how the blood would get there and then leak to the outside of the home like it's just very weird to me and the substance is located on the back wall of the home which would be closest in proximity to the bedroom that Zena and Ethan were sleeping in so very weird I don't know and in the in the picture so if you look up the pictures of this which I'm sure you probably all will now but so you can see there's like five lines like dripping blood and then so there's like two and two and then the middle one like kind of starts halfway down from where the other ones are so it's like much shorter than the others and if you look directly above that line on this picture you can see some blood on the pipe that's on the outside of the pipe well I'm saying blood but it's not confirmed to be blood but you can see there's like this red substance on the pipe as well that maybe like it's dripping from the pipe to the wall at that point which is why like that middle line starts a little bit further down whereas the other ones are longer I don't know it's just very weird like I said the police haven't confirmed that it's blood or anything they say that it's suspicious but it's has to be like confirmed for sure but what else would it be if it like looks and it has the same consistency see is blood like what the hell else would be dripping down there like I can't I can't think of one thing [ __ ] catchup that'd be weird too yeah like it's for sure 100% or I think it's more than likely blood but if it is I don't understand how it got there like it like I said it's a dripping motion so it's not like blood splatter it's not you know somebody had blood on them and rubbed up against the house like it's dripping you can tell it's the dripping motion so I don't know where it's dripping from I don't how Bloody does the room have to be for the blood to be like dripping to the outside it's just very bizarre to me um maybe it was on the murder weapon like the knife a lot of blood and it just kind of like if they were like running from the house they still had the knife and it just like flung off onto the house and it was dripping down that's what I'm picturing but it yeah that's what I was gonna say that's what I was going to say too maybe it was from the knife but I mean but it's just it does seem farfetched though that but I don't know it could be but I just think like if you look at the like it just looks like it's dripping from above somewhere like it just doesn't look I don't know I mean it very well could be who knows but like just looks like it's dripping could is there a window above there could it have come like from maybe they triy to like Escape out the window or something blood dripped down then they got pulled back in I don't know I mean yeah there is like a window like I said it's kind of below Zena's bedroom I think um on the back wall um from on the second floor but like it's near the ground it's near the found Foundation like on the concrete foundation near the bottom where the dirt is so I just find it weird like if it was coming from the window that it wouldn't it wouldn't be anywhere else other than there like it's weird that it starts there you know what I mean like it's not dripping from the window and you can see it on the wall it's like the only place that it is is like on the concrete foundation near the bottom yeah is super weird yeah yeah so it's just like super weird and yeah I found a picture of it yes yeah you see look at the picture right so it looks like it's dripping for sure it looks like a dripping motion and you can tell like the middle the middle one that's dripping starts a little bit lower than the others right yeah and if you look I don't know if you can see it in the picture how zoomed in it is for you but there's like you can see a little bit of blood on the outside of the pipe like right above that middle line so it's like it's dripping from there but there's nothing else anywhere else above that where there's blood it just starts there so I don't understand where it could be coming from it's just very weird to me yeah I don't know it but the picture is weird I see it now it's like very odd spot for it to be yeah yeah so it doesn't really make any sense at all like I said the police haven't confirmed that it's blood for sure but um well what well to me when I'm looking at it it looks literally like blood like I can see it like what else would that be like most crime scenes when you see blood that's what it kind of looks like yeah like I I think it's very farfetched to think that it would be anything else but blood I mean what are the Chan that it's something else that just happens to be there that's not related so I think it definitely to me it's probably blood but like I said it just hasn't been confirmed by the police at this time so bizarre to me how it even got there in the first place and how it's only there and it's dripping from somewhere above but it's not anywhere else like it's just super weird that's the one thing or one of the things in this case that I'm just like I can't understand it oh yeah I'm like looking at the picture now too and it does look like it's like seeping down from like inside the house kind of and then coming down which is super weird yeah and like you can see there's no blood anywhere else above that right it just starts there like you can see like the part where it starts on the concrete yeah it's like near the bottom right like that's a concrete like Foundation yeah it looks like it's coming from like the material that the house is like made out of dripping down onto the concrete yeah it's super weird yeah super weird so that's a big mystery for sure um so I don't know what's going to come of that but I'm interested to learn more about what the [ __ ] that is so there's a man named Johnny Law so he's a former crime scene investigator and now he has his own YouTube channel and he actually has a really good video up right now and he in this video he says he was able to obtain a detailed sketch of the home's layout from the property manager so I guess he just reached out to the property manager and they gave him this sketch and it kind of EX um shows the layout of the inside of the house and police have said that the two surviving roommates were on the first floor of the home although a lot of stuff in this case because it's so high profile a lot of stuff is rumor speculation so sometimes it's hard to understand like what's actually been confirmed by police and what's just kind of like other information that's out there but as far as I know the police did say that the two surviving roommates were on the first floor of the house which is like the main floor so if you look at the house from the front there's the main door that you would you know most people would go into and if you enter that door you're on the first floor like the main floor and so that's where the two surviving roommates were sleeping and two of the victims were on the second floor so and we believe that's Zena and Ethan and they were in one room on the second floor and there's also because like I said there's five people who are living at the house but there's six bedrooms so one bedroom was vacant that we know of but we don't really know for sure which room was vacant and that the vacant room is kind of important because it might kind of explain depending on which room was vacant why maybe nobody heard anything that was happening that night so yeah so like I said Zaya and Ethan were beli to be on the second floor and then it's speculated that the two other victims Kaye and Madison were up in their separate bedrooms on the third floor so like I said the vacant bedroom may be important because it is directly below either Madison's bedroom or directly below Zena and Ethan's bedroom so because they said that the two surviving roommates were on the first floor I am speculating that the vacant bedroom was on the second floor so Zena and Ethan were on the second floor bedroom and directly below them was the other roommates bedroom that survived so people are saying that this is like the only point where there may have been noise that's heard cuz that's the only point during this where there would be like people directly above because the speculation is that Z and Ethan were killed first and then the killer went up to the third floor so you know nobody on the second like the two people on the second floor are dead already so when he's up on the third floor nobody's going to really hear it and then you're not going to hear it from the third floor when you're on the first floor so they say that like that bedroom that Zaya and Ethan were in was like the one time where maybe they they may have been able to hear noise like if they're hearing footsteps or commotion happening in the room above them but they believe that because Kay because Kaylee and Madison were on the third floor that like there's not really anyone that would have heard anything that's happening in either of those bedrooms so that's basically just kind of what he's getting at in this video where he's kind of talking about the outline of the H or the layout of the house and just kind of describing like cuz people are like well how could nobody hear anything or why would the other roommates not hear anything people were suspicious but it would make sense if you know if you're sleeping you're not necessarily going to hear footsteps if you're in like a deep sleep you're not going to hear footsteps above you if there's no screaming or anything which is also weird if there's no screaming and there's two of them and if there just defensive wounds on their hands obviously they were fighting back so just very the details are just confusing to me also I feel like when I was younger at that age I could sleep through anything I remember the fire alarm in the building was going off and like I was still asleep and somebody actually had to like come and shake me awake and this is like a normal night like I'm not like super drunk or anything just asleep and someone had to come and actually wake me up because there's a fire alarm like blaring throughout the whole building so I mean I don't it's not farfetched for me to think that even if there was a little bit of commotion that people just slept right through it yeah like I think it is very possible that people aren't hearing things you know you're in a deep sleep you're not going to hear especially like I said if there's no screams or anything like that even screams you might sleep through but like if it's just footsteps like and also even if you do hear footsteps you're not going to think it's weird because you know there are people in the bedroom above you like you know if you're sleeping at night and you hear footsteps above you it's like it's not going to be weird because you know there's people in that room so it's not even something that you would necessarily even be concerned about even if you heard the footsteps but from this video when he kind of describing the layout of this house so that's kind of what he's getting at is like trying to pinpoint sort of which bedrooms were directly below and above the other ones just kind of see if there was a potential to like hear what's happening in these bedrooms it's weird that they bypass like the first floor bedrooms though and they just didn't even bother is there theories out there that they had a vandetta against these four particular people so that's why they kind of skipped the two at the bottom or they just didn't think there was bedrooms down there like is there any thing that came out about that in terms of that the police are also kind of being a little bit Cy and they're not saying much so at first they said that they didn't believe that there was a risk to The Wider Community they thought that it was just an isolated incident so they told people not to worry then they walked it back and then they kind of said well like well we can't inclusively say that it was targeted or that it was isolated so like they kind of told people to use caution and then reports are kind of saying now that they believe that it was a targeted attack in some way either if it was one person that was targeted or if all four of them were I don't know why all four of them would be but they don't really know that or they've said like they believe that it's targeted but again that's all they're saying they're not saying anything else about that like who it was or if it was more than one person so they're being kind of wishy-washy with some the information that's coming out which is a little bit confusing but I mean they're everyone's confused so did they ever like consider maybe like since they were all out that night like somebody had a beef with somebody while they were out and this person happened to follow them back to where they were and kind of like hide out for a little bit and then attack whoever they were wanting to attack well my understanding is that they are looking at surveillance footage and stuff from like the sigma Kai party that the two that Z and Ethan were at like I said there is that 5H hour window so the reports say that they were at the sigma Kai fraternity party from 8:00 to 9: and then they get home around 2:00 a.m. so we don't know where they were from 9:00 to 2 so that might be something obviously that's probably something they're looking into as well so we don't really know but I'm assuming they're probably going to be looking at you know the corner Club where where Madison and Kaylee were they've already looked at the surveillance video from the food truck that's how they got that initial person that they thought might have been a suspect but was red out so they are looking at surveillance footage I would assume from all those places and they're asking for tips from anyone in the community because that's obviously something they're going to try to think too like maybe there was something that happened that night maybe there was an incident somebody got very angry and Then followed them home or or something like that yeah I was also thinking maybe somebody came back with one of them to party longer so there was like another person in the house with them and then just when everybody fell asleep you know they Unleashed their attack for some reason but yeah yeah and like we know like maybe that's possible like we don't know I mean we'll never really know potentially like the four people like maybe there was someone else in one of those bedrooms that we don't know about the other two roommates were home by one but we don't know for sure that there wasn't like another person at some point with the other four like we don't really know that yet or maybe please to but I don't think that's really out there I mean they've never said that there was more than six people people that were in the house so like I said they're going to be in ki and aren't saying too much about like the specifics of that from the video of the house layout that this video is shown I'm thinking so this is also a theory that uh that guy Johnny Lawes like the former crime scene investigator he's kind of just throwing it out there speculated about like how he thinks the killer entered the home and I also agree with him so thinking that it's possible that the killer entered the home from the second floor patio which is situated like at the back of the house it's kind of on like a ground sort of Hill so I mean if you look at pictures of the house you can see it but the house is kind of like on a hill so the main floor and the front of it is like on ground level basically but then as you go back further the house like you're going uphill kind of so at the back there is like a yard and there is a patio at the back that you can access from the third floor you can walk out to the balcony there's like a balcony over overhead but there was a patio underneath the balcony that like a you know just a patio so but there is a sliding glass door that leads to the kitchen on the second floor and it's kind of assumed that like this isn't like a fenced off area so anyone can kind of just walk in from the back of the house onto this patio and potentially through the sliding glass door if it's not locked so if they came in through the sliding glass door that would put them already on the second floor which would put them in the kitchen and then Zena's bedroom is the one that's right close to that so that would be the closest bedroom so I believe that you know Z and Ethan were probably killed first as they were the ones that were on the second floor and then the killer made their way up the stairs and then killed Madison and Kaye who were in The Other bedrooms on the third floor and then came down and then went out the sliding glass door the same way they came in so it's entirely likely that the killer didn't even go onto the first floor so if they were to enter through the main door at the front of the house then he would have been on the main floor and then the two surviving roommates would have been closest to them so the fact that those two survived leads me to believe that the killer was never on the first floor at all but entered on the second floor unless it was a targeted attack and the person knew which bedrooms these people slept in and just went directly for those bedrooms like that's also a possibility too that was going to be my next question I was going to say maybe he they like they would have to know the layout of the house in order to know where to go and where those bedrooms were if it was a direct attack I don't know like if you're just going in just to go in a house to kill people like your first instinct would go through the front door would would it not but maybe to me it sounds more like they kind of knew the house and the arrangement of the house and where people were so yeah I don't know and like I'm also thinking too that like Katie mentioned earlier that the ring cameras from the neighbors never saw anyone going through but maybe if they came from the back that might be why there was no footage of someone coming into the house because they came in from the back way where there might not be camera access and maybe the person knew that or was thinking of that that and wanted to come in through that back door so that they wouldn't be spotted yeah that's what kind of makes me think if you're trying to sneak into a house and not be noticed you probably would go through the back because there's no direct houses facing that back door right it's like if you go through the front door there's people across the street and everything but the back door there's nobody really looking directly at the doors like from other houses you know what I mean so that kind of makes sense yeah and that's what I think is probably what happened is that they probably came in through that back door and like I said there was no sign a forced entry so I believe possibly that door was just left unlocked that patio door um so the person was able to get in quite easily and like Steph said if it someone who's been at the house before and knew the layout of the house and there was targeting specific people then he kind of knew which rooms were which room was vacant which rooms people were sleeping in and just cool but I I just feel like if you're I don't know I feel like in my mind like if someone's going to be have the goal to do that it's like wouldn't they want to why would they want if they know there's other people in the home why would they want to leave to other people alive who could potentially have heard something who could have you know what I mean like that's leaving more sort of possibility that people might hear you or or know something right like if you're leaving them them alive which makes me think that maybe they didn't think there was other people in the house yeah maybe because like bedrooms typically aren't on the bottom floor like when you think of a normal house layout the bedrooms are on the top floors so maybe they just were thinking there was no bedrooms down there so that's a possibility too mhm yeah so it's just weird so I I kind of think that the person probably came through that sliding glass door on the second floor and then didn't even go on the first floor at all and I also was wondering too like maybe it was the knife found in the kitchen like did the person come to the scene with the knife or did they enter there and then see the knife take it and kill them they never released like I said they just said it was a fixed blade knife that was never found at the scene they've never recovered the murder weapon but they know it was fixed blade knife B I guess was there a knife missing from the house that they know of they' also never said that so I'm assuming probably the person brought it to with them to the house cuz I feel like that would be probably something that the police would kind of announce right would say like oh well there was a knife missing or something like that right but again who knows what the police know but they've never come out and said there was a knife missing from the house so they just said that they never found the murder weapon and they believe that it was a fixed blade knife whatever that means so something else that also came has come out in the 2 weeks since the murders happened so there were tips that came in that suggested that Kaylee had a stalker but the police have not been able to cooperate or substantiate that claim at all so basically there's no evidence at this time that suggests that this claim is true and kayle's family was interviewed on CNN and they have said that she never mentioned anything like this to them and they say that she was kind of she was a very open person and wasn't really private at all so she they think that if she knew she had a stalker that's something she would have told them but I'm thinking one thing I was thinking like maybe it was someone told someone else that they were stalking Kaye and Kaye didn't know about it so that's a possibility too like she's she can't tell people something she doesn't know right so maybe someone was bragging like oh I've been stalking Kay or you know what I mean someone said something to suggest that and was stalking Kaye even if she herself didn't know about it but police haven't been able to find any evidence to back this claim up but it's kind of been like lingering out there that maybe she had a stalker which would kind of go with the targeted Theory but if they were targeting just Kaye like why would they kill all of the other three people it's just very bizarre so like I said there are still no suspects at this time global news reports that quote police have seized the contents of three dumpsters on King Road to locate possible evidence end quote so King Road is the obviously the road where the house is located and there's was three dumpsters near the home and please have seized all the contents of these dumpsters they've also been contacting nearby businesses to see if there was a knife that matched the kind that they believe was used in the killings that may have been purchased recently uh police have said that they've combed through over 1,000 tips that have come in and they've conducted at least 150 interviews so far and have seized over 100 pieces of evidence from the home itself so far in the investigation but all the information I've told you is all that they know so far so they have no suspects in mind or at least none that they've released publicly so one of the problems with a case that becomes so widespread and public knowledge is that there are kind of a lot of rumors that come out and like other speculation that the police haven't confirmed but it's just kind of out there so there were some like other events that were rumored to have possibly be connected to the quadruple murder and so on August 13th of 2021 so this would have been over a year ago in Silverton Oregon there was a couple who were the target of a violent break-in and stabbing in their home 26-year-old Travis jeton and his wife 24-year-old J Molin they were both stabbed multiple times around 3:00 a.m. when a masked as salent entered their bedroom and began violently attacking them Travis died his injuries but Jam Lynn miraculously survived the attacker was never found and no suspects have ever been reported in that case so because many of the details were so similar and this happened just 400 miles away from Moscow Idaho people began speculating that the two murders were somehow connected police have said that they don't believe there's a connection between the two murders at this time they also believed that like I said before the quadruple murder was targeted but haven't given much other details and then in another incident there was rumors that there was a dog in the same town that was found skinned 3 weeks prior to the murders and people were thinking that maybe that was the work of someone who was the killer and I have no idea why people would assumed that there was this connection U maybe because there was reports that kayle's dog was found in the home but the dog was unharmed and was handed over to animal services so that I think that's kind of where that connection kind of came in but please have said that there is no connection between the two incidents either so at this time they don't believe that this skin dog that they found 3 weeks before has to do with it so I think people are kind of just grasping on anything they can like I said there's not a lot of concrete answers at all about what happened and so we still don't know anything and that's kind of where the investigation is now the last few days there hasn't been any news really there's there's updates but nothing like that we didn't know before so police are working around the clock and the house is still cordoned off it's a crime scene area and so they're still working to find suspects find more information and like I said they have over a thousand tips that came in from people that they're still combing through so who knows what they'll find but it's just very very bizarre and I feel like it's everyone's worst nightmare like having someone come into your home and like if you wake up and there's like a masked person standing over your bed like that's terrifying gives me nightmares to even think about it so it's just very bizarre and they also still don't know if it's just one killer or multiple I was kind of thinking it's more than one person because especially for Zayn and Ethan like if they have defensive wounds on their hands how is one person fighting off an attack and the other person isn't waking up isn't screaming isn't doing anything like that you know what I mean which makes me think maybe there was two people but I don't know they've also police still don't know at this time if it's one or two and there's a lot of talk too about there's a lot of like possibly digital evidence too like there were suggestions that police should be looking into kind of maybe somebody connected to the Wi-Fi while they were in the home like if they had been at the home before then their phone automatically connected to the Wi-Fi so there's suggestions that they should probably look through the Wi-Fi history see who was connected to the Wi-Fi between those hours uh or if they were connected to a Hotpot on their phone and didn't know so there's kind of like things like that that they can kind of look into to see but they haven't released anything that came from that if they even did that so there's still a lot we don't know was very sketchy very suspicious and ultimately very sad for these four University students you know Ethan was a freshman I believe uh two of them were in their last year going to graduate so you know all that potential is very very sad and I'm hoping that they can finally find who did it and you know bring Justice to the family and their victims and these victims because you know it's four people four young people it's just very sad it's super scary like imagine being two that survived like how vulnerable they must feel cuz they were there asleep when all this happened and it's very easily could have happened to them as well so I can't imagine how they're feeling that's super scary also the fact that it was like a party house there's always people coming and going just trying to find like Fingerprints of a random person is going to be hard because there's probably lots of fingerprints from people like a lot of people coming in and out so that's probably not helpful for them at all so yeah I wonder if they think there's more than one person I wonder if there's more than one weapon we that was used like cuz could they tell if there was two separate knives two different knives that were used doing the stabbings or do they think that one of them was like kind of holding them down while the other one was doing it so I wonder like what kind of information like that is going to come out yeah and I think that might come from the autopsy CU like I said they did do autopsies but they haven't released the details of the autopsies yet so that might be something that will come out with that but I think I mean for the other two like Kaye and Madison they were in their own rooms and their own beds so like one person can obviously do that but I'm just thinking for Zay and Ethan like there's two people in that room like that's where you're going to run into trouble if one of them is screaming and fighting off and also the police were saying or people are experts are saying you know that like if there was a fight if they had defensive wounds on their hands and there is a possibility that maybe the killer got cut with the knife as well during the fight which could leave blood evidence and stuff mixed in with the blood that's at the crime scene as well so that's a possibility that they could find that too if there's like an unknown blood profile from someone that's like mixed in with the blood that that could be a lead for them I couldn't have mean I don't like you said I couldn't even imagine being the other two surviving roommates I don't know how you would ever sleep again I I can barely sleep thinking about it when I'm home alone right now but I couldn't imagine being the other two that like you said survived and knowing it could have been them just sad scary yeah I still can't get over that that blood thing that you the blood stain that they saw outside but also this is the reason why I locked my doors at night when I'm by myself and I like sleep with the light on because stuff like this terrifies or not by yourself lock the doors anyway like obviously well yeah I locked my doors anyways six people in this house and they still got murdered so yeah like J said I just don't understand how nobody else heard unless it was like a really old house and there was like Stone in the wall and very soundproof well that's a good that's a good point step that you mentioned cuz that's something else that came up too was that cuz there was talk about like well how insulated are the walls or how soundproof is it and there was like residents who lived in the house 25 years ago who lived in part of it who were talking about the house but the addition like if you look at the house it's kind of like a weird shape so like the back part of it was a new addition that just happened like recently but the the main part like the main on the main floor and stuff was there for at least 25 years ago I don't really know if that will answer anything about like insulation or soundproofing but it is at least 25 years old that part of the house and then the other stuff was like added on after so I don't know what that would mean for soundproofing but it's also an interesting thing because that was something that came up in some of the videos I've seen as well is people were talking about how insulated were these walls where no one's hearing anything but like I said too if you're just hearing Footprints you're not going to think anything you know because you know there's people in the bedroom above you so if the one roommate in the first floor like even if she does wake up and hears Footprints or something she's not going to think like oh that's weird like cuz she knows there's other people upstairs so unless she's hearing screaming or something like you're not really going to be necessarily concerned I wouldn't think yeah that's true yeah I mean there's six like five other people in the house so hearing someone walking around isn't going to be super weird so yeah it's interesting yeah so super sketchy super scary and like I said we're recording this episode on Sunday the 27th which is just two weeks after the the murders and this episode's going to be coming out on the 30th of November so there might even be some updates within this 3-day period um that we might have to add in in post production but yeah we'll see there of of course there'll be updates and stuff as things come up I mean I'm really hoping it gets solved like the one that happened in that town 400 miles away was over a year ago and they still haven't found who did that one so I'm really hoping this isn't a case of that where they just can't find a suspect and also too you know as it's getting further and further away like I doubt the person's going to stay in town they're probably going to flee right so who knows where they could be now if they're going to flee the town I mean I wouldn't think that you would stick around but also there have been cases too where people go to the memorials for the victims after they do it so it's not out of the realm of possibility they do that but I would just think that you would like flee maybe but if it is like another University student or something maybe kind of leaving would look suspicious or maybe I guess because if you're scared you could just say I'm leaving getting the hell out of here but yeah well a lot of a lot of students have done that apparently have left yeah like a lot of students have left campus and went home and they won't return until they find the killer yeah I guess that makes sense so I mean could be one of them yeah true um so and that's the thing it's like we never really know because like I said the police always have more information than they release so I don't necessarily believe them when they say they don't know I mean they might have a person of interest in mind they're just not saying it because if you really do think it's this person you're not going to put that out there if you think it is giving that person more of an opportunity to flee or do something right so I mean it makes sense that you would keep that kind of close to the vest for now until you have enough evidence for sure yeah and it has only been two weeks so I mean I it's super early still in the investigation so I feel like there's still a lot more that's going to come out in the recent days even and weeks to come so definitely have to stay up to date on this one yeah and that was also too another point that I at risk of sounding a little bit harsh here but I feel like in some of the interviews I've seen of the family members I mean I think some of them are being a little bit unrealistic because they're very angry with the police that the investigation is still ongoing like that they haven't found the person or that they haven't been telling the family things it's like the police aren't going to tell the family information like if it's top secret investigative information like they're not going to tell the families because once you tell one person You' told the world basically so they have to understand that the police have to keep things I'm not saying that they did everything perfectly I mean I don't know the specific situation and I'm sure the family I mean right now they're still mourning right it's only been two weeks but in just in some of their interviews there saying how like angry they are at the police and stuff and it's like well it's only been two weeks like you have to give them a chance to investigate yeah and it can't just be saying names that they think might be suspicious I mean that's how you can ruin an innocent person's life by like saying their name when they actually had nothing to do with it so it does make sense that they're you know keeping things close but interested to see where this goes yeah and we'll we'll for sure keep you guys updated with updates as they come like I said I'm sure it's going to be lots of updates so make sure you follow us on social medias to get all that information we'll probably put out an update episode as things come along but I just wanted to discuss this one because like I said I've been ever since it happened two weeks ago I've been like following it and like I feel like I needed to talk it through with with someone and like get my thoughts out there because it is kind of like puzzling me right now some of the details of it especially that blood stain on the outside like to me that's just bizarre so I'm interested to see how it goes and hope they do find the perpetrator for justice for the victims and also said that they can't do anything like this again also there's a lot of experts out there saying that they because there was a lot of talk like is it a serial killer and stuff like that and experts would come out and said that some people say they don't believe that a person's going to do four killings their first time killing they think that it might be someone with a history of killing but again that's speculation no one knows if it's targeted you don't have to have a history right you're just angry and you want to do something and maybe had something against all four people I don't know so we'll update you as things come out and um yeah like I said hoping it's solved soon so that does it for this episode of crime family so like I said follow us on the social medias if you want to hear updates of this case and just get some you know keep up to date with what we're what we're doing and you can follow us on Instagram at crime family podcast we're on Twitter at crime family pod one and our Facebook is crime family podcast you can also send us case suggestions and you know your thoughts on the podcast things you like things you don't like all your feedback to our email at crime family podcast gmail.com and check out our website at crime family podcast.com Family podcast join us at one of the three tier levels to get exclusive benefits that only patrons get including mini episodes and bonus episodes and a new series doc talk like I mentioned at the beginning so definitely check that out and we also have a merch store open on Redbubble as well so check out the link in the show notes to find our merch and support the show and yeah thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next week with a brand new case so take care bye bye bye