'I believe our decisions now will define us forever': Interview with Rachel Goldberg-Polin

Rachel Goldberg Polin has become the international  voice heart and conscience of the hostage crisis   in Israel her son Hersh 23 years old was abducted  by Hamas um 83 days ago taken into Gaza he is   wounded the family Rachel and the whole family  um have immersed themselves tirelessly in the   campaign to bring him and the rest of the Israeli  hostages back home Rachel thank you so much for   talking to us today on welcome I just want  to tell you we're also interested in bringing   all the hostages home not just all the Israeli  hostages y That's a good that's a good correction   and thank you for that I see you uh right now  in our conversation you have uh the number 83   on your on your shirt I assume that updates daily  correct the you know it's like the most nauseating   uh there's so many nauseating parts of my day but  I I come out of my bedroom and the first thing I   do before I even put the sticker on me I go out to  my porch where I have a huge counter um we live on   the fifth floor overlooking a huge uh industrial  area and I change the number on the sign outside   and then I come inside and I'm still in my pajamas  and I put a number on um my pajamas just you know   immediately and then once I get dressed I switch  that sticker to whatever I'm wearing because um   I think it's important that every day we're  aware that that something's changing that the   numbers are growing and the um the danger is  growing and especially in America it made and   abroad it makes people very uncomfortable which  uh is good you should feel uncomfortable that   there are human beings still being held hostage  and one of them obviously is your son and before   we talk about all the things you've done in the  campaigning it would be good for us I think and   our listeners to hear and have a sense of of Hersh  who he is what he's like just tell us about him   a bit sure well I love talking about Hersh um  first of all her is my firstborn so um I said   you know there's something very special uh the  person who changes you from being a person and   being who you have been to mother always there's  like this uh connection that's um a very hard to   describe connection so obviously you know I have  that connection um Hersh is a very curious smart   uh respectful very very respectful and yet super  funny dry dark sense of humor uh sarcastic without   being mean he doesn't go over to mean in fact he's  never mean like that's just not that's not his um   Mo um John and I both said we've never and this  is pre- October 7th we've never heard her shout   like it's just not who he is um he is obsessed  with soccer obsessed with music festivals he had   just spent nine weeks this summer traveling by  himself to six different countries in Europe to   go to music festivals by himself he loves meeting  people from all different places and all different   backgrounds um wild about geography since he was  in kindergarten because he had this incredible   uh Irish Catholic teacher who was obsessed with  geography and she made sure that all the kids   learned everything and he had a photographic  memory so he he just became very obsessed with   travel as a tiny you know as like a five-year-old  as a six-year-old so he for all his birthdays he   would ask for maps or Globes or atlases he asked  for National Geographic um for a subscription so   we got him they have a junior National Geographic  which we got him and then at the end of the year   when it was expiring the subscription was expiring  he came to us with that little you know back in   the olden days when they would send like a card  that said you need to re um you know resubscribe   and he came to us and he said but this one is  beneath me I need the real National Geographic   so you know he um you know he's just starting  his life and he was supposed to yesterday was his   ticket to fly to um India to start the trip he's  been planning since first grade that was going   to be anywhere from a year to two years we knew  that um and um we ended up going to the airport   yesterday with the bag that we bought for him that  he was supposed to um be using for this big trip   and 50 of his of our daughter's friends and some  family friends came and we did like this whole   little ceremony and we handed out stickers to  people who were on his flight to India um and said   when you get there please you know put up stickers  um and send us send us video of you know your   adventures and uh people have already sent we have  um amazing videos that people have sent to us from   different places that he was planning on being on  saying Hersh we're waiting for you Hersh come on   um so that's Hersh is a you know I'm a mother so  obviously I I think all mothers think that their   kids are wonderful but I always say you know it's  not that Hersh is perfect but he is the perfect   son for me and you said I think that you um that  these days You're pretending to be a person that's   very Point can you tell us more about that how  you besides being The Advocate and and talking and   talking to crowds talking to you know important  people around the world what do your days look   like what how does the family struggle through  this so um you know I open my eyes in the morning   and I immediately know oh shoot I'm still in  the nightmare you know it's a nightmare it's   a day-mare it's an all the time-mare um and I say  mod an the prayer that the traditional prayer that   that many Jews say upon waking that actually says  like I'm grateful to you God for giving me back my   soul you have so much faith in me and then I say  let today be the day and I get up and as I was   describing and I get up and the first thing I do  is change the number on the porch and I put the   number on my body and um you know I look at my  schedule we're surrounded by this outrageously   talented team of people who came to us on October  7th and have not left in 83 days um and they plan   how we walk through our day and as you mentioned  because I have to make a decision every day and   so does John that we now have to pretend to be  human because we are you know my my heart and   soul were torn out and stolen to Gaza on October  7th so I look a lot like a person kind of and I I   still know how to kind of fake it and behave like  a person but I am in such existential angst and   despair at all times that look of course I have  my moments where I have to say to the team um   I'm going to my room now which is code for Rachel  has to go cry um and you know and I go and I do my   thing and I wipe my face and then I come back to  go on because there is this Primal maternal innate   need to save him and to save them and the problem  is if I'm on the floor in a fetal position in a   puddle it can't really save him so I have to take  that and I have to put that somewhere else and I   have to go forward and I have to do every single  thing possible to try to save him and I'm not you   know people will say like how you know like wow  you're really doing so many things to try I'm not   doing anything John and I just spoke about this  we're not doing anything that any other parent   wouldn't do it's just that so few parents are put  in this position thank god um yeah but I I don't   know if you are parents but I mean think of your  own parents your own parents would do this for you   you know it's not this is not exceptional this is  not unique it's simply that there aren't very many   people on planet Earth with the unfortunate task  or mission to save their child you you mentioned   God there and you mentioned that your day begins  with the prayer and I think um some people I think   would hear that and wonder how on Earth that is  possible even Beyond just getting through the day   that you have retained Faith even when something  like this has happened um what what do you say to   people who who are asking themselves that question  oh well it's actually interesting because I didn't   even continue on what I do after you know putting  the number on and I have my cup of tea and then I   go and I actually pray every day which I've been  doing for years and years this isn't like a since   October 7th but you know I have this relationship  with this idea of God and it actually during this   period is very important for me so every morning  um I then sit down with my prayer book you know   with my sedor and I actually pray the morning uh  traditional morning prayers that that many people   do um and listen a lot of times I'm I'm shouting  and my kids know my girls know and I'm very uh you   know hand motion I'm very now this also predates  I have to say it predates October 7th but um you   know now more than ever there's a lot of like  you know putting my hands up and and having a   conversation in Anger is also a relationship with  God or having a conversation of what are you up to   is also a conversation with god and a lot of you  know throughout the day actually before when this   whole debacle was happening with when we couldn't  find the sound for this podcast to happen and I   was in the other room saying tehilim I was saying  Psalms because I say Psalms throughout the day I   find it to be very helpful and I'm not talking  about the oh my gosh you're so cool God Psalms   which there's room for that but I'm doing the ones  where like King David was saying like how long   are you going to make me suffer how long is this  despair going to go on and there's something very   validating that other people have gone through  tremendous angst and despair and anguish and and   Trauma um um and for me for whatever reason um I'm  not in that place where people say there can't be   a God you know like this horrible I appreciate  that and I appreciate that as a response right   um I'm not there yet and I actually very thankful  I'm not there and I hope I never get there because   for me in a time where there's so little that  can bring me any moment of focus on not being   terrified is helpful and when I'm praying it does  that even if it's an angry praying and sometimes   before I start I'll even say I'm just telling you  right now this is not going to be good like you   know sometimes I'm I'm going through it because I  like the ritual of it but I know it's not going to   be good and we all have those moments in life in  different things that we do where you know you're   going to go through I'm sure there are times where  you guys show up for work and you're like we're   going to go through this you know podcast or this  news you know segment it's not going to be my best   but I'm going to walk through it yeah you know  there 83 days I mean is is such a long period and   there there are things that have happened since  October 7th first of all they Israeli hostages   they came back home there has been another attempt  at a hostage deal that thus far has failed there   has been a tragic shooting of hostages by the IDF  I I wonder where you find yourself uh when you   when you're confronted by all of this news uh  is is the way to deal with it sort of shut it out   is the way to deal with it what do you do when you  hear all of this well each thing is its own thing   so first of all when when the first um agreement  uh was finalized and we were told beforehand   listen Hersh is not going to be in this um in this  agreement it was so wonderful that they told us   that because then we were purely happy for the  people getting out there was no kind of like you   know when you when you're playing Bingo and you  hope that your number comes up there was none of   that because we knew he wasn't getting out and and  we felt that it would it made sense the babies and   the and the children and the women were getting  out so so instead that I said in this whole 83   days those days those like four and then I think  it was five there was like a bonus five were the   only moment of respit in in a torturous situation  and all the more so because we now have grown to   know so many of the families so we were watching  and saying like oh my gosh it's moshe's daughter   oh my gosh it's y yours niece and you know it  was actual true Joy thank God because you know   something that's sad for me and I was thinking of  it yesterday was you know I just miss being happy   like I can't be joyful I I try really hard and I  have manifested some Joy I was trying um before   each Sunday before Christmas you know there's  um Advent and there are themes of Advent and the   the third week was joy and I thought you know  and I really we've been getting such beautiful   unbelievable thousands hundreds of thousands of  messages from from Christians around the world   that I really wanted to give them a message each  each Sunday of Advent and I was saying you know   I wish you Joy and I'm trying to think like how  can I feel Joy and the way that I was able to do   it is I was picturing hersh's wedding and I was  picturing her holding Hersh's first baby you know   and so I was like creating Joy but I miss actual  Joy like I miss not you I don't want to have to   like create it and and fake it I want to actually  have that experience so that was really wonderful   when those hostages were released it was a moment  it was a whisper uh for us so that was that first   um feeling the second chunk of you're talking  about the failed um attempt of another agreement   obviously that's crushing um look that whole  first week when people were being released we   were aware that was held together by the finest  and thinnest most delicate of thread and every   night we were holding our breath oh my gosh is it  going to work and there was that second or third   night where they they said no there's an issue and  we were all like you know so um but it was it's   obviously crushing to us to every hostage family  um when because the hostages who were released   started to reveal what they experienced and what  the conditions were like where we were already in   excruciating pain on so many levels you know that  pain just went skyrocketing breaking through every   ceiling and so then it's like complete panic and  anxiety so the thought that that that broke down   is for us you know excruciating and then obviously  two Fridays ago with the tragic horrible mistake   of the soldiers shooting these hostages who did  every single thing right they did every single   thing right I mean it was just horrible and the  truth is I felt terrible for the soldiers I felt   terrible for them and you know who's the real I  mean she's such a queen that the mother of um I   forget right who said who said first of all I'm  not angry at all and they you know and I love them   and I feel for them I mean she's just you know  amazing amazing beautiful soul to know that these   obviously you know it was a horrible horrible  mistake but this is what happens in war and   conflict and this is what's so sad right all over  the world um whenever there's there's conflict   and there's war it there's always mistakes  there's always innocent people hurt always you   you mentioned those thousands hundreds hundreds of  thousands of messages um from around the world and   your highlighting of hirsh has captured people's  imagination around the world I think partly   because of this speech you made which you know  went viral in which you expressed empathy for the   woman you imagined who looked like you um in Gaza  and you said there will be a woman who looks just   like me and you wrote a poem while Tiny Seed and  you talked about how you faulted those who only   get outraged when one side's babies are killed you  showed this empathy for people in Gaza not many   people can manage that and you know I've spoken to  lots of them Israelis and Jews who admit that they   only really have room for their own pain these are  not people who are going through what you're going   through um but they say they can't look at or  really think about the images that are coming from   Gaza that instead they're still stuck in October  the 7th you somehow manage to sort of transcend   that but do you have sympathy for people who  admit that they just can't do that I do I think   look all of us are going through a trauma all of  us and and I don't think it's a competition um meaning obviously people look at families with  loved ones who are held hostage and feel that   okay they won and I don't mean that I mean that  the whole entire country is going through a real   trauma an actual trauma a physical trauma an  existential trauma a psychological trauma a   spiritual trauma I think we're all going through  that and how everybody handles that is going to   be different and so I honestly I don't judge  anyone um and one of my dearest friends said   to me and she was working very closely she's in  the coexistence world and they meet weekly with   pre October 7th um she's an educator who would  meet weekly with um Palestinian Educators and   she's an Israeli educator and she said first of  all since the seventh none of us have met and she   said and I feel terrible I don't I don't have it  in me right now I don't have it in me right now   and I get it I really get it you know like um the  interesting thing is that um people who reach out   to me from the other side and it's rare um there's  a young man uh an Arab Muslim who reached out to   me he's 24 um to say I'm hersh's age you know  I'm a little older I also love soccer I really   want to meet him there's a special time when  you wake up in the middle of the night night   and you say a certain type of prayer when you  really want Allah to respond and my mother and   I have been getting up and saying that prayer for  hirsh um and that was very powerful for me um to   hear from that that side and I also you know  it's also that the Hersh that I know has fought   for coexistence has been a pursuer of Peace  has been a minority voice among his his peers   throughout his life and his friends um and I feel  that the who I am and who he is this is our voice   um and I'm also very grateful that when I was in  university I had a teacher who really taught about   the idea of transcending an adversarial Paradigm  that we're trapped in or or we feel that we're   trapped in I don't know that we're trapped in it  and that was really the you know the the source   of those speeches of of when I speak that way  it's really that what can we do to transcend this   horrible cycle that we're caught in and none of us  seem to benefit from it you know it be one thing   if like okay it's a bad cycle but it's working  for one side it seems like it's not working for anyone you know that the Israeli government is  saying and has been saying for a long time since   this began that it's just the mil the military  pressure will bring back the hostages that is   if we're talking about paradigms this is their  Paradigm what do you think about that and have   you been tried have you've been trying to talk  to any sort of key office holders about this over   the past you know couple of weeks and do you feel  like they're listening to you well we have spoken   to and we've been in you know we were invited  as and the hostage families are invited often   to these meetings that are I don't go to them John  goes to them I feel like um I'm in enough pain so   I don't want to go to a meeting where everybody is  screaming and crying um but I do know that that's   the method that we've been told is you know this  is what works I have said a lot I'm not a military   strategist I'm not a political uh you know I don't  have Acumen in sort of the Diplomatic or political   world I don't understand these tactics um so it's  hard for me obviously to think that that this is   the right way to go about it on the other hand  I appreciate that we have been told there's a   two-pronged approach here that we need to diminish  hamas's military capacity to do an October 7th   again and obviously that is true right we can't  have October 7th happening every few months it's   not an option so I get that um and I think that  when we're saying at the same time we're trying   to get the hostages back to me it feels like  that's kind of tricky to do those two things   that seem very desperately um you know on the on a  spectrum that they would be very far apart um and   it's very scary and I don't know I don't know  what to make of it and and I think that people   say well but look it worked right because we got  over a hundred people out by doing that um I get   very nervous that um we're creating a lot of you  know uh a lot more people who are miserable um in   Gaza I mean I see the pictures that everybody  sees of you know these there are hundreds of   thousands of innocent civilians whose whose lives  are being ruined and and um you know maybe that's   not our intention or that's not our goal but it's  unfortunately it's again that's what happens when   you're in conflict and you're in war and I worry  all also about the hostages who are also there um   and uh and It's Tricky I don't know what I don't  know what to yeah make of it it's painful I mean   I'm not a nor I'm not an objective Observer  right like my child is there so I recognize   that I'm I'm not you know someone who's removed  yeah I know you and the other hostage families   have been uh critical of some in some ways of  the government's uh fa to sort of Advance those   negotiations you know with the with Qatar and  and others but I just wanted to ask you this   about you and some some of the other people  who are speaking for the hostage Families how   significant is it that so many of you are women  that women have taken the lead in being the voices   uh uh and faces of this crisis I mean I think  I've mentioned it before that I do think that um something bothered me a few weeks ago and  I said I said it on a thank God we have young   people who've been advising us and saying oh you  need social media and so we have you know one of   my um closest friends her daughter who's more  like a niece who's been running the bring Hersh   home Instagram and all different social channels  I know nothing about that stuff I don't even have   Facebook um you know when you're not friends with  someone in fourth grade at anet you don't have to   reconnect when you're you know 50 um so I never  got Facebook because I felt like I it's okay anyway so   I we'll tell our listeners that Rachel is spilling  the beans on the fact that we both went to the   same school in Chicago that's right except 100  years younger than I am so I think I was probably   in 8th grade when you were in kindergarten this  is the most Jewish conversation two women could   ever have right exactly Jewish geography um  but uh what's interesting is I was mentioning   in one of these like podcast not podcast uh  Instagram video moments I said it occurred   to me that they're in the war cabinet there are  five men making the decisions about everybody five   white men and I thought and in this negotiating  when they go to you know Poland or DOA or Egypt   or wherever whatever these rooms are I'm not sure  I can't speak with 100% certainty because I don't   know but I think the only people in those room are  men and I started to think like it's very strange   because if there was any other sort of negotiating  going on and there was an a non-representation   of part of the people of whom we are trying to  negotiate for I think the whole world would be up   in arms and I also do think that you know there's  a perspective that you don't get when you don't   have women in a room and I also think there's a  perspective you don't get when you don't have a   mother in the room and I'm not saying that I need  to be that person but I would love if there was   a mother in one of those rooms because it is a  different voice and I even you know we spoke to   a group of high schoolers uh today and when they  said what can we do I said to be honest with you   I would love for you guys to come up with some  ideas because you have a very different worldview   and perspective you know you're 17 and 18 year old  young people and we have been working on this for   83 days and I would love to hear your ideas and  your perspective I said there's no ego here we're   trying to save lives so I don't care where the  ideas come from and I think that that should also   be the attitude you know our problem with this  two-pronged approach Jonathan as you mentioned   is simply that we it's not that we're against  trying to diminish these you know military Capac   ities that could replicate this atrocity that  happened here it's that we're working on that   part 247 and we claim that we also equally care  about the hostages and therefore you should be   also simultaneously working 247 meaning there  should not be one moment of respit there should   be a team of accomplished negotiators professional  negotiators and people who sit together 247 Trump   trying to figure out how do we make that work at  the same time otherwise you're not being honest   because let's face it if you have two children and  you say I'm going to give each of you exactly the   same thing and then you give one of them 100%  of your time and one of them every two weeks   you kind of give them some time here and there  and sometimes you get mad and you walk out of   the room that is not giving the same to both so  that's where kind of we we feel that that there   could be room for improvement you uh you're you're  trying to save lives everyone helping is trying   but whoever's listening to this conversation on  a practical level how can they help you so first   of all on a practical level if you happen to be  um an American citizen you can call the White   House every single day um we spoke to someone  high up in the administration when we were in   um Washington a few weeks back um there was a  in Washington and um we met with a lot of um   people from the administration and Congress and  John said to this man if this was your son what   would you suggest we do every single day to get  your son out and he said it will drive us bananas   but you should be calling every single day the  White House and your local elected officials and   saying I am not okay that at that time it was I  think 13 that there are 13 Americans and you know 237 or 227 other human beings who are being  held hostage you know now we're at a point   where there's um 129 and seven Americans being  held hostage um of those uh 129 and so if you   happen to live in America we were told call every  day so we actually have hundreds of thousands   the people who call every day and I'm sure that  you know that poor switchboard like answer the   telephone answer is like oh no here here we come  again um but they they count and keep track of   all the data and metrics and the subjects so  it's important that local elected officials or   the highest elected officials no matter where you  live if you live in the UK if you live in Germany   if you live in Japan call your local elected  officials and say I am not comfortable that   there are human beings still being held hostage  that's a very doable task and the thing that's   great about it is that it's very ritualized and  it takes less than a minute so we know I know   from all you know my family and friends who do it  every morning while they're boiling their water   for their coffee or tea they call the White House  every morning and they're like hey Irene you know   like now they know these people you know it's not  okay and um so that's defin itely something doable   and I wonder in Israel how do we get to our to our  officials here I think you know I asked actually   like do they have a switchboard at the Knesset um  and I don't know that everyone's in agreement on   what should happen but I I do think that there's  value in just saying we're not comfortable in the   current situation like that having having these  people there is making us very uncomfortable   and that's something that you know as of a few  days ago I started to get very nervous because   I started to feel like when I was a little girl  I didn't grow up in a in a observant home but my   mother always said Jews value life Jews value  life and she I remember she said and it even   tells us in the Bible that you can break every  commandment except for there's three um to save   someone's life you know that we value life so much  and there's something about what's going on now   that started to make me feel very uncomfortable  that I I'm scared about how we feel about those   129 that are still there um I'm scared because  I think it's going to Define us what we decide   to do forever and we won't be able to recover  from it um there's also you know there's a verse   a pasuk in Vaikra in Leviticus that talks about  you cannot stand idly by as your brother's blood   is shed and then at the end of that verse it  says I'm God and there's a question from the   commentators why does it say I'm God because you  could just tell me don't stand idly by when you   know you see something bad happening why is it  saying I'm God and one of the commentators says   because there's never going to be repentance  for that you can never recover from that and   so we have to really be asking ourselves now  who are we even if we pay a horrible price   who are we and are we okay paying that price  that price being that we won't be who we were   Rachel Goldberg Polin we hope your prayers are  answered and you are reunited very soon with Hersh   we hope all the hostages are reunited with their  families very very soon thank you for talking   with us so openly on Unholy thank you thank you I  hope next time Hersh is here and you can ask him all   about his National Geographic days amen we look  forward to very much you thank you for having me