all right we're live because I don't have an intro and I just click a button and go live uh hello Jax how are you I'm good how are you doing James I'm doing very well um to introduce you briefly uh this is Jax Griffin a very good friend of mine um Jax has a PHD in film I'm gonna say if you want to get more specific than that you be more than welcome to I I want to give you the respect that you're due but know exactly how to describe your degree um but I know that it's in film and I know that you do a lot of work or have done a lot of work continue to do a lot of work in W with regard to story and narrative uh plot and whatnot I know that you are for the brief stint that I had in Hollywood you are far more learned you've actually been to film school and you've taught classes and you've organized uh a uh what would you call it a a festival Film Festival Film Festival yeah yeah I ran a film festival for a while um it split up there's still it's still running in California I that's awesome thank you that's really cool so I guess we could just hit the ground running and uh I think you know not to bury the lead what is the difference between in your view narrative story and plot and I'll ask the other question later let's start the there okay yeah um we've talked about this a bunch haven't we and yeah we have um I'm going to cheat a little bit and pull up my my sort of crib sheet but um oh please do just because these terms are really really similar um and confusing and used you know like for cross purposes all the time and I think I'm G to um sort of preface this by saying I don't think this is the only definition like the only way to view these things but this is how kind of I've adopted these terms and it's based on David Bardwell whose sort of like Film School 101 theory he unfortunately passed away recently um and it's like a massive loss for film Theory um but like I I used him for my PhD because it was kind of like Hey we're starting at the building like the basic building blocks um and so he views them as separately and because I needed to come to grips with these terms I was like we're going to view them separately narrative is almost like you could almost say it's like you know life life is narrative right it's just the chain of events you know a happens B happens c h in sequence right um so they're boardwell the quote is a chain of events linked by cause and effect occurring in time and space right so you know you send me a link I click the link I come into this chat we have a narrative right um and oh see I've actually gotten this wrong myself already so story is the chronological order um story is a chain of events in chronological order okay so so narrative is just a series of of linked events story is chronologically ordered yeah so the narrative you can kind of this is yeah see you can see instantly why it's confusing why I have the [ __ ] sheet um so yeah so we're talking about story is the chronological order narrative meaning that you can parse these things or separate them and deconstruct them and take them apart right plot plot here's where it gets interesting plot is the presentation of narrative and this is what I'm really interested in right um because plot means you can have like Pulp Fiction right where it's completely out of order or sometimes like happens multiple times and that's plot um so that is like I'm gonna that's the first part of your question what was the second part of your question again how do they okay I part yet that was just what are they yeah yeah yeah I just wanted to lay the groundwork and and speaking to plot particularly um this past week maybe it was last week I don't know we were having a conversation and you told me and even I I brought this up this past week before we even jumped into this this phone call um you told me that and you didn't say it exactly this way so pardon me if I'm putting words in your mouth or if I get it just a little bit wrong but you sort of indicated that like even where you cut a scene in a film or where you choose to start a scene uh is very much a part of plot and that that kind of swung doors wide open for me and I started to think about um plot with regard to video games and how when you run up against an invisible wall and this is what I told you earlier in the week how when you it's the start of the week it must have been last week um but when you run up against an invisible wall that's that is a it's a I don't want to say physical but within the world of the game it's a physical barrier it's a physically structured barrier to keep you out of certain areas and and as plot is structure those invisible walls become a part of the plot which is super weird to think about but then that really set me down a path on well what is plot in role playing games now I have said before and I think a lot of people have said um all people who agree with me so all people who are correct uh that plot in an RPG that there should be no you shouldn't go as a game master you shouldn't go into an RPG with a plot in mind that you've previously constructed as a sort of a funnel to shove your PL years through sure additionally I have said that plot and and others and others so plot is whatever the player characters are doing right but that's not even true right I mean it's part of the truth but it's the story is what the players are doing story is what they're doing right and plot is how it's being presented so plot would be to use elements of plot in a role playing game would be fast travel for example sure all of the player characters know they have to go somewhere dice rolls I would say are plot dice rolls are plot I would I would argue I think you could argue it right because could argue it yeah yeah so I need to I it's just this has been like revelatory for me so this has completely changed and and I want to ask you just I guess Point Blank before I start talking off on a on a storm um what are the elements that in in a role playing game that you would say are plot obviously you don't have to give an exhaustive list but just like even just you saying like dice rolling is plot is is is like kind of mind-numbing to me it's like what that's that's a game mechanic how can it be plot and it's like well it's let me let you answer the question I asked the question you go ahead and answer no yeah for sure I think this is really interesting um and I'm kind of thinking on the fly a little bit but it's also like we've been talking about this and like I both been like churning away at it yeah yeah oh yeah for sure once I knew that we were gonna have this time to sit down and talk to one another I like my mind has been buzzing non-stop I was working um this weekend and I remember talking to my co-workers about like because there's a a movie buff who I work with and so we we talk constantly and and I was like I was like did you know that cutting a scene in a certain at a certain point is plot and he looked at me like and his eyes got wide and I was like oh so you didn't know either and it was like this kind of like conversation that we start I've been thinking about it since since you brought it up so yeah so but then it's like how do you then apply this to a a role playing scenario right right and I guess it's like you know I know especially well from watching your streams like I know there are non like GM or DM games right I don't really fully know how that I've not played those I'm not fully sure how that would work in a role playing sense sure um in terms of like having plot because I think a lot of plot is going to be coming from that person or persons um because it's going to be it's generally the GM or the DM who's kind of stewarding scenes forward or stewarding um PCS away from like you know is as much about what you don't see as what you do um and so I think it's like uh okay you walk into um you walk into this cave uh you roll an investigation check and like do you get full information right yeah so it's plot as given by the GM but as determined by the dice in that scenario I guessed by all three right so we've you've got this is it because it's a collaborative I know you don't like that I don't you don't like this idea and and a lot of your people who agree with don't like the idea that it's a collaborative narrative event okay that's fine we can disagree on that you're talking you can use your terms yeah and we've we've talked about this there's a lot that we disagree on with regard to terminology but like that's kind of the point of sitting down and having the conversation because AB that's what I want to drive toward you know right so but if you got you've got a GM DM you got Dice and you've got PCS right and I think they're all three coming together to create plot um because and I I think the strongest component's the dice because it doesn't matter how much either the PC or the GM wants something to happen if the dice don't want it to happen it's not happening you know yeah so so see and I would I have been you know for the short amount of time I've been on YouTube but back before that I've always sort of put dice rolling or dice mechanics into like it's it's game hisry it's it's the system it's it's the game element of role playing game there's the role playing and then there's the system that you use under which you role play to determine the events that need some kind of determination some people like to do it a lot some people like to do it a little um and I I've never really considered that as plot and I think that a lot of people in in the I'll say broader role playing hobby or the the the broader hobby of this activity that we engage in whatever you want to call it because I know that like recently I've been trying to drill down on what exactly role playing is and sometimes what some people do at one table exists in my view and under my framework exists completely apart from you know the roleplay activity but in you know common words used commonly um it's all pretty much generally referred to as role playing so to get that model mess out of the way um I think that I it just it completely turns my understanding on its side really right so because it's not like is plot what the characters are doing well yes in the choices they make as players while roleplaying they are essentially deciding the direction of events and they are deciding what events are and aren't explored through roleplay and so that's plot so when I say that you know whatever the characters are doing is plot that's correct however it's also correct that they are both narrative and story because they are the chain of events or they are at least they should be actively participating in the chain of events driving the chain of events forward and it's also happening to them chronologically um yeah and and I think and I think I I put it to you the other day as well that without plot it's actually not very interesting you did say that can we can can I ask you to explain that a bit more just story if it's just narrative right that's literally like you wake up I mean think about all of the things that happen in a chain of events that are uninteresting that yeah right so without like you were saying like fast travel without certain things being withheld which is essentially what plot means right if if you kind of want to look at it in uh relief right if if plot is the presentation it's essentially you're taking things away right yes yes um you know without it it's it's not very interesting and I know people like definitely do that there's like you I've heard horror stories of people like role playing where like their character has to use the bathroom and things like that and like sort of torturous for yeah that's like that's like hold M hostage in my view right should really happen yeah so then so then now I have to kind of start looking at things as like system as plot and I think I hate that I also think it's very interesting yeah I guess because if we're saying if we're saying if it's the dice it's the system now obviously it's not wholly the dice and the dice like you can inv dice to a heavier degree or to a lighter degree you can involve like it's not right it's not just dice it's like it's tables so now the tables are going to dict and you know you can pair the dice with the tables you don't always have to pair dice with the tables um sometimes you can pair tables with a statistic like maybe you are I've I've seen some character creation um uh character creation mechanics where it will tell you to take your highest statistic whatever it is just take the number and then take the uh the number of hit points that you have between like one and six okay and then it gives you essentially your starting uh equipment oh based on that based on an expectation that your highest stat is what you're going to be best at so like it doesn't the table doesn't have to involve dice but it can um and I'd say it probably most usually does but like so even here with the tables and rolls and then it gets into like then it gets into prob stat as plot right because you have to take a look at the curves your probability curves and what different dice are going to provide different curves and how frequently you want players to experience a critical hit if you want them to experience a critical hit how frequently you want to uh uh uh land on critical fail like it's really like it's like I'm really sort of uh I'm almost like treading water here to to to try and keep Pace with all of these thoughts that are coming to me as a result of what you told me it's it's like really it's incredibly interesting yeah I was just well I was just gonna say it's incredibly interesting but I don't know like I can start to use these terms in this way and I can start to equate to plot but is everyone else gonna um I don't know but it's like it's super interesting to think about I mean there's I'm sure there's a a large fraction of people out there who just don't care you know what I mean there's just they have an idea of what they want to do when they sit down at the table and they're going to do it and that's that's the the activity that they want engage in um yeah not me darn it I think I think it's this is even where like again I'm going to bring it back to um sort of the GM so say you get a CR did did you happen to watch that video of uh the great the great bleam unfortunately I did not I meant to no I'll just recap I'll recap okay so B basically they're discussing what you get on an at 20 okay and when and um so for for people watching it's a video with Brandon Lee Mulligan and uh b d Walters and it's from adventuring Academy and I highly recommend watching adventuring Academy in general um but they kind of basically say that it like it kind of depends on where you are in your campaign right and that like if it's really early on right and you walk into a room and you notat 20 on an Insight on the big bad right it's not satisfying for you to be told as a player this is your big bad because you don't have all the pieces yet right right right huh so yeah exactly go ahead you I'm just I'm just vocalizing my thought proc yeah yeah yeah I think I think you're getting my point right like so like that Nat 20 a Nat 20 isn't like a fixed thing so even when you're talking about like oh you know you have to worry about percentage of chis the the DM or GM is still coming in and affecting that and like they're they're putting their own personal spin on on DCS you know how who's saying who's setting a DC it's the you know like why is it a 15 for this and a 10 for that and you know how much info do you get based on those you know how much over and under um how is that related that's all plot but it's Dynamic yeah this this is so it's living plot weird it's so weird yeah because I hear a plot and I think like what everyone else thinks Hero's Labyrinth fry tag prier like I think all those different types of static structures by which a story is told I've never I think not once thought that plot could be dynamic but like if we're really gonna sit down and talk about what a GM does right in conjunction with the dice that's what it is it's Dynamic plot it's it's a dynamic bounding of the events you know which is and I'm sitting here struggling for the words because it's just not really ever something that I've considered and and it it really I think it really kind of puts a name to WHY roleplaying games are so interesting and so unique and I feel like there are a lot of people who attempt to do that they know it's Unique um they know that it's it's something you can get something from the activity of role playing that you can't get anywhere else yeah but I always find the ways in which that they put it into words is very uh uh mundane I'll call it it's not you know not I'm not faulting them it's just not an easy thing to put into words I guess until you just did um but I think that that if it's not the totality of the reason for the uniqueness in role playing games I think it's absolutely a piece of that um for a dynamic plot which is really it if if that's the case then I think that that strengthens the the argument against wanting to construct a narrative prior to play right because completely defeating this Dynamic plot element which is what makes the role playing experience unique absolutely it needs to be fluid and so so going back to like what you said earlier and what you've said in previous videos like if you if you set out with a structured plot at the beginning of your session or um uh campaign how you know whatever you're running then you're kind of doing it wrong right yeah oh for sure for sure because because like first of all you're gonna be disappointed as the person running the game because all it takes is you're G to do tons of prep work and then your PC is going to go yeah [ __ ] that I'm gonna go here and you're gonna go oh I don't have oh [ __ ] like okay here we go off to this thing that I mentioned for color and like it just and now I have to fully embellish yes it is it is many it is the bane of many GMS who devote in my opinion way too much time toward prep that it's somehow you know thwarted or foiled there are all kinds of stories all over the Internet about that sort of thing but when they do that like it's they're setting themselves up for failure for sure not just because the players can so easily upturn whatever it is that they've planned but specifically because the role of the GM in conjunction with the dice and the players is to be not not an Arbiter but a component of the dynamic plot so they're not even like they don't their role is not there for the totality of the plot and there I've also said previously that GMS are players they should be treated as players they should role play as well it's the name that's on the tin so they get the world and they get all the NPCs and that's what their role playing with um and I I may have just lost my train of thought but even still it's like if this like obvious I mean obviously if it strengthens the argument I making I'm going to agree with it but I really feel like this is an extremely it's like it's revelatory to me personally because it's not something that I've ever thought about before with regard to plot which I know I've now said five times no but yeah I mean I guess I want to kind of turn it turn it around to you and say like because I don't think I don't I don't know about this as much do you think that this affects roleplay at all do I think knowing oh it might it does it affect role playay knowing that these sorts of dynamic you know the dynamisms of plot and roleplay does that affect the actual role play um yeah or I guess your idea of of I mean no I don't think it affects my idea of role play hold on though I mean yes it affects the idea of play but how because to me roleplay and if you give me just one moment yeah sure I can go and find the definition that I have been working on oh yes that would be that would be awesome but not um because I don't have it pulled up that's okay so this is and I'm gonna preface this just like I have before with every other time I've given it um let me get to it first though I don't know why I just don't have this in a document somewhere that I can pull from I mean I do it's just not here so it's here it's here it's [Music] here okay so here we go uh and this is the preface is this is an incomplete and thereby inadequate definition it's too broad it's a catch-all and I need to provide more specificity so that it applies better to the role playing activity with regard to role playing games but it's a good base to start from so the definition is and this is something that I haven't given yet and I should have in one of my videos somewhere but I think I'm going to actually do a video on what role playing is anyway especially now after this conversation um so what I have currently to work from is role playing refers to the act of temporarily assuming the identity characteristics and behaviors of a specific person character or role different from one's own often in a fictional or imaginary context and subsequently making decisions or interacting with others based on the assumed attributes motivations or personal goals role playing can occur in various contexts such as theatrical performances improv improvisational exercises educational simulations and within the role playing game activity the essence of role playing lies in the exploration and expression of different perspectives and personalities Beyond one's own um that's it's just far far far too broad um but if will affect that because I think that plot I think that role playing as let me get my thoughts straight player character action being understood as a sort of bounding of events as you would with plot will absolutely affect that definition I think that it has to because I think that that's going to be an extremely effective way to add specificity with regard to the role playing activity uh with regard to role playing games um and it's like and that's going to change that's going to change my view of GMS and it's going to change my view of systems as well because plot's been sort of it's been superimposed over everything it's it's incorporated into everything so now where where I would where I would have said that I think that a game a role playing game requires a GM because to do a a solo role play is it's fundamentally different even though there is technically a GM because you are the GM essentially but you're also you and you can only ever be you and so you are the person inside your head Who's acting on both behalf of your player character and the NPCs and the world however previously I would have probably granted that that's likely it it would acceptably fall under role playing now I don't think it can um because of how integral that bounding is with regard to plot this is going to require a lot more thought and this is just off the cuff and I need yeah we're having like a free flowing conversation just IDE this was really you know other than us reading off a couple things to kind of give it some a little bit of structure right you know but I think I I kind of I agree with you because I think I mean PE like I I know a lot of people do solo play and and but I think for me like when I'm as like as like a PC coming into it right that external pressure right is something that to me lets me be in a character because like if I can make a choice and like I can just decide to do it or not right like that's fine like and like that is not satisfactory to me I want want to kind of be like you know well I'm going to go I'm going to do this and try it and there's like something that I'm coming against and I guess you can use dice rolls for that but that just doesn't seem as interesting or fun to me as yeah you want something in character you want you know you want an environment to say it's a sheer Cliff or you want uh an NPC to say no I disagree with this I'm also the captain of the Guard I'm gonna arrest you like that sort of uh confrontation I I I hear what you're getting at and I totally agree with you yeah and and I think and I think that's kind of what we're we're sort of driving around this idea of this like this living you know we're using the word plot a lot and like that word might not resonate with people it might but like you know we're we've picked a word and we're that's what we're going with yeah that's what we're going with um but this like living this living Dynamic plot I think is from for me absolutely what draws me into role play and like role play game specifically um I think that's probably what draws I think that up to this point it's likely gone nameless but I think that this is also what draws a lot of people in to the Hobby as well um just the the the ability within the activity to affect a world to be an individual in that world affecting the world yeah and if that is plot as we've decided to call it then that is I think absolutely the determining draw to the activity for people who like to participate um man we're only a half hour in this has been so awesome already I'm like I'm this is incredible thank you so much again thank you for having um I'm just like you know I'm like slightly I guess it's like the elephant in the room to me is that like I'm coming to this very much from from like a film perspective on things right so you know I know that like I'm pretty new in the the roleplay and game scene um but I just well well as you know but like the people watching don't know I've been so like it's gotten its hooks in oh yeah that I've uh dove in with some real hyperfocus powered by some some strong ADHD and caffeine um and uh I think you know I think that this is why I'm so interested in it from like a mental health perspective and why I'm so interested in it as a hobby and as a conversation and like as a um academic subject in general um because it's it's uh you're right like there's not lots about it lots that's been written about ttrpgs aren't by games people you know aren't by the people playing them um and it's kind of like time it's what they've been around um so yeah no this is just I'm really thrilled honored to be here um I'm teeny tiny you you you deserve a much bigger platform than my own I mean you're your ideas are fantastic I'm like I'm I am honored to have you on so you know thank you ah look at us this is yeah what this turned into a soapfest look at us no one wants to see this people don't realize we haven't we've met once yes like like 15 years ago very long' just been like buddies since so this is just really we had something in common that Drew us together there we go um well this is but you were an you were an editor you're still an editor yeah I am so this must like like this is it it's it's it's kind of like it's editing it is editing it is yeah I've never looked at it like that before it's it's I know but then go ahead I'm sorry I'm just flabbergasted well no because it's like you can do non-edited stuff like right like even in film you've got God there's that Warhol film that's like nine hours long or something Empire empire state building um you know you can have not edited but even that is like it's edited in the sense that the camera's pointed a specific Direction so it's just if you Translating that I'm trying to transfer my knowledge over so I'm talking it through out loud do please do I'm just think like like I'm trying to I'm trying to roleplay in my head if like we were to sit down for a game and we were like we're just gonna we're going to do it we're going to do full like not edited we're not going to no fast travel no fast travel one to one time and hour is an actual hour nothing would happen yeah I I tend to agree with that I think that there are I mean I would tend to agree that like if I'm G it couldn't you can't because it's it's you're role playing is living a lifetime in a shorter span right so sorry you I interrupted you if you're going to roll no you didn't you didn't I was you did not interrupt I was trailing off um and that that's and that's kind of it's like you're saying like it's well the escapism of it is not only do you get to play these you get to live full lives not only are you affecting the world you're living like full lives in you know condensed period in a way that and you're affected by it in a way you're I don't you know you're not affected by a character in film because you you're not that character whereas you are the character in the game yeah and that I mean that definitely and we've talked about bleed before yeah um you know my feelings on bleed but I think that I think that there is something to it for sure um but I think that I think that the data collection method's unreliable but that that doesn't mean there's not something to it yes no I mean it for sure it it 100% is unreliable unless you're GNA like hook people up to MRI machines while they're yes playing and well well you would have to get you would have to get a baseline so you'd have to hook them up to it before and then during and then also after to be able to observe the changes be able to say you know that the after is different from the before based on the it's it would be very timec consuming and it would take a lot of money and a lot of people and I I get that and I am still dissatisfied with the theoretical nature of yeah but I understand that you know I I definitely think that there's something there it's there's something there um I wish there was more to it I wish I could stand on Research or paper that actually produced some sort of you know non self-report data um yeah I think that that's GNA be a matter of funding right yeah yeah oh yeah that's that's gonna also be a huge concern as funding but I also think like I I still kind of I know I've said this to you but I I still come down on the idea that lead is essentially you're experiencing emotions because you're experiencing emotions like like it's I don't know this this idea of confusion I think is maybe inaccurate that like you know it's no different than than empathetic crying or uh you know like you like you kind of are experiencing these things so just because you're playing a character like you're still there you're still present so yeah I have a hard time with that um historically I've had a hard time with that with um when I say I have a hard time with it what I mean is that I have a hard time viewing that with validity I'm not going to say anyone else shouldn't or should I'm not going to deny the fact that there is likely something there um I just have a an issue with I have I just have an issue with finding it valid as all um I think that's I don't know why I think like is valid I don't know enough about it to argue me either and I'm like I'm just learning this stuff now the I didn't even know what it was until you handed me a paper and said here read this so like you know however long you've been reading about it before me it's more than I know you spent more time you know kicking it around than I have and maybe there is something that I've yet to read or discover that will make it click that will you know add the validity to it that I want I'm happy to talk about it theoretically but I mean I I can say pretty um pretty confidently at least from my own perspective that I do think there's something to it I just wish it was more measured as all yeah I get that and I mean like you know I I I spent nine years writing a thesis because I was annoyed that people used the word poetic and didn't know what it meant so um as they applied it to film because it meant nothing except that they liked it I love I love the George Lucas quote it's like it's like poetry it Rhymes and I say it as often as I possibly can and I hope that that was one of your reasons for going on this quest to write this because I I absolutely my spite thesis yeah yes your spite thesis because I like I love the quote because of just how silly it is it's just silly and nonsensical and I would love if that were were involved you don't have to reveal your secrets um no but I will say that like if you um and people are free to check this out like I don't have a link to send you to hand but it nearly made it into the thesis if you do like some light digging on like who poetic filmmakers arey bow comes up oh okay we've had this conversation before too and it's my favorite thing like but this is and this is it and like it's kind of you know it because it was it's because it's been used as this meaningless term um uh if you do find a link if you have any links that you want to provide to research surveys or whatever I can put it in the description once um once we wrap up that I'm very happy to do that and I'll put a little explanation with what it is and and we can certainly do that for sure amazing um but yeah no it's just it's I don't know it's it's kind of yeah I think like I don't think I've had like a real strong like idea on how I view this stuff right until this really until this conversation um you know we've talked a lot about like different things and it's kind of been like oh that like that got this thought going and this got that thought going um but I I'm still I think I'm gonna like stick to this idea of living plot and you know that because I have to I even in even if you're not playing like an arct game if it's just a c like see you know and see what happens kind of game you're kind of following something right yeah character motivations uh personal goals absolutely yeah yeah and and I think that that using these definitions is more plot than it is I mean it's plot is story plot is right they're all kind of a big mess but like you know you can't fully separate them at all but it's yeah I think I think that's it you can't fully separate them that's what it really annoying for me but yeah I'll live no it's okay it's okay um yeah and we were see we were having that conversation and I think this is like this is very much a part of what I'm trying to do like we had a conversation uh I should say that it was a Discord Conversation Over In The Geek verse with uh heat geek verse which I will be now providing a link for um in the description once this is all wrapped so I can't provide it live but once it's wrapped I'll put it in the description of the video um we were talking recently about um using common words as they're commonly used okay and that that part of the conversation was at least sparked by something that you had said to me with regard to the language that we use to discuss roleplaying games was stolen from film which stole from theater and literature which is um it it makes sense because you use the language you have at hand to describe the activity or event no matter how new it is you need a vocabulary to be able to express it and even when when Gary gak and you know arnison and all the original guys who did this were describing it to people because they didn't have a vocabulary to use there was nothing you know it was as new to them as it was to us or everyone else they would call it like a collaborative storytelling sort of an activity and regardless of how much I disagree with that today after you know 50 years of of this particular activity being refined over you know Generations I think that it's perfectly okay to use common words as they're commonly used to get the point across I think that it's the most effective as an editor it is absolutely the most effective way to handle language but I think that we have to be willing to invent vocabulary where we need to and sometimes that just means giving a word different meaning meaning but sometimes it means like really drilling down on what's what is common usage what is correct usage because they're not always the same thing oh and then maybe applying the correct usage to how we commonly refer to it yeah in in ring and I think I think for sure after this conversation and everything that we've we've talked about leading up to it I was probably using the term plot incorrectly um so now I need to go back and make a bunch of revisions which is great because that's like what I'm I'm I'm really kind of aiming for that I want to revise I want to be more specific and I think that I think that I'll even update the phrase that that I've been throwing out there common language as it's commonly used or whatever I say or have said to common language as it's commonly used correctly or something along those lines because I think that using words correctly especially if they're stolen right right is going to become very very very critical in understanding the concepts that we're trying to express yeah because you can I mean there are many rabbit holes you can go down when you're borrowing language because you're trying to make something fit you know essentially it's you know Square pegs round whole kind of yep and it can get really confused and it frequently is and and I think that there's really no better place to go to understand that idea than role playing games because there are so many terms that people use commonly that do not mean the same things they're not trying to express the same idea they're trying to express what their view is which is fine I'm not blaming them for it I'm just saying that if you come to me and you start talking about role playing I have an idea in my head that is more likely than not not going to match your idea right well like you can even I guess the closest that you're going to get right is video games right and you you know let's take a totally different topic and talk about player choice right like just that term and when we're in role playing games it is a true choice right yep and video games it's not there's it's an illusion of player choice so oh yeah even like something as simple as that and there as I think as CL as we can get to it right two very very different things so like yeah it's kind of like the the language is just so you need yeah drilling down and getting to picking a definition even if even if people disagree with your definition that's fine picking it and you know this is what I'm using and then you don't have fine you don't you don't agree with that usage that's fine you have a different word for it fine but this is what I'm using and I'm being consistent so that you can go back and like get it all um yeah I would agree with that I think I think that was a longwinded way of saying I agree nothing if not long-winded and cranky but uh I'm I'm really I'm really excited to continue thinking about this um I'm really excited to get into um revising the definition that I want to use and revising my thoughts on role playing with regard to how I'm naming things what I'm calling things where plot fits in where that actually fits um because I think that speaking more specifically about it and I'm sure there's going to be some measure of you know the preamble this is what I mean by this word this is what I mean by that word but I think as long as I can or we I should say as long as we can um fall back as frequently as possible on common correct definitions like what do I mean when I say drama or what do I mean when I say plot when I say drama I want to mean drama when I say plot I want to mean plot um and plot as structure but then you really have to consider where exactly you're going to apply the use of those terms um this I absolutely love this conversation um I'm really very thankful I I'm just happy that it's not coming across as like a hot mess no not to me anyway not to me anyway um so that's good yeah you know because it's like I'm like oh no I do I do kind of know what I'm I kind of know my [ __ ] but like also kind of like we're in New Territory so it's a lot of it's kind of this is just what I think um that's totally I mean Academia that's totally fine though like that's what I've been doing it's just I just I I click record and I just throw a bunch of ideas out there and from week to week sometimes things change because I talk to someone who's given me a new perspective or I talk to you and you've you know you've you've applied a word that I just didn't ever expect to apply in the way that it's apply but it's it's correct and it's common use and it makes sense um so it it you know I have been changing because this it's really this is an exercise in refinement so it's going to be sometimes messy it's going to be sometimes nonsensical but the goal constantly is is to drive at those words or those Concepts that are most meaningfully applied to discourse on role playing games and I it's not this has not been a mess at all I mean some of my own thoughts have been more messy than this this has been fantastic um but we're creeping up on an hour and I know that we set out an hour to talk about this even though there's like a million billi other directions we can go um can I put you on the spot and and ask you to maybe come back absolutely I would love to come back I would love to come back and talk about absolutely anything because aw I enjoy our conversations so do I this has been really really great this has been great thank you so much this has been this has been so I've I've got like a lot to think about because I'm like kind of turning in my own head now about story telling versus plot I'm going to leave us on that I think that's what we should talk about oh okay sure but um well let's let's we will organize that for another time then we'll do Story versus plot we sent I mean you know I titled the the stream as narrative versus Story versus plot but we really focused on plot this time we did really focus on plot so I think going Story versus plot next time would be an excellent conversation to have so I'll prep for that and we can schedule it for whenever you would like to schedule it for whenever you have the time um but we'll deal with that absolutely um thank you so I mean and we can it doesn't have to be that that's just what the thought that's been just right now that's what we're thinking yep yeah thank you so much thank you and uh thank you for all the people um the comments I have been like spying them uh yes I have to um thank you everyone for being here for watching for commenting I know I didn't really go through the comments this time my apologies but literally every single last one of you knows how to get a hold of me so if you have anything you want to talk about you can contact me you can leave it in a comment under the live stream um I will get back to you uh as I'm able to um so thank you all for being here thank you all for watching um look forward to Jack's future appearances and absolutely yes I'm going to end here and I'm going to click end and it's not going to end because that's how streamyard is so give me like a couple seconds of a buffer yeah thanks everyone weird what was that I said I won't say anything weird oh okay great me either I'll try not to this time H thank you again Jax thank you again everyone and I will talk to you see yall soon take care thank you