Erosion Control w/Thomas Wilson & Joe Ledford – DT 270

[Music] for the first time ever I am thrilled to say we have an official sponsor for the dirt Talk podcast and that's ariot I've worn arot boots on every job site I've visited over the years traveling in them across five continents more importantly I have yet to find a single project where work working folks unlike me are not wearing arat boots and work wear in every condition imaginable and there's really good reason for that and that's because it's phenomenal stuff and The more I've learned about arot and the company The more I've loved their brand so with this arot is offering any dirt talk listener 10% off their next arot order at ariat.com SL dirt talk that's 10% off boots jeans and work wear at ariat.com dirt talk or at the link in this episode's description with that let's get to the show I think well I think it's it's okay to have a healthy dose of fear like I I do think you should like be God-fearing you know in that way you can't be scared to walk no no you can't let it paralyze you but I think I think I think it is good like I I even um man I I think I was talking to my brother and he's like he's like he's like I'm not I'm not really afraid about this and I'm like tell her you you should be afraid like if you're not afraid that's that's not a good thing man because I'm afraid I'm I'm I'm terrified and and but I use I use that productively I don't use that as an excuse not to do things I use it to motivate me right hey this is this is gonna happen if I don't do this so I better get on with the program here for sure yeah it's a fear can either stop you in your tracks or make you run as fast as you possibly can yeah and there's no other really two ways I don't think you're either going to you're either going to stop or you're going to take the next risk and make it work and that's basically what we did this year yeah how long have you been going now since 2018 2018 okay so we started same year yeah yeah I started beginning 2018 too all right yeah how old are you 38 38 yeah and when did you come on about a year and a half ago now yeah so yeah right in the midst of the storm yeah yeah you jump in you're like what have I done I was glad to be there honestly just God put me there that's how I feel I mean what it is yeah that that is a big part of it yeah um uh what did you get started doing initially so I went to school for construction management at Western Carolina okay and graduated and went to work for sh a company called sha yeah I know them out of Kentucky at the Ashville airport and we I was doing anything from putting in Silt Fence or uh driving off-road truck or yeah mini X or skider flagon whatever and they started having me like kind of travel around to all of their projects with Duke Energy yeah they're the big operation but they I mean Duke they almost exclusively work for Duke yeah it's pretty much that's what they do they're they're I think they say it's CCP manager like a coal combustible product manager from there I went to work for a company called Hanes Geo in Charlotte North Carolina who sells erosion control materials and that's where I kind of got my first real taste of what erosion control is um just because we had to learn so much about it I was kind I was an inside sales rep for them for two or three years and then wind up going and working for a company called Monroe roadways uh again Charlotte area and I was an estimator for them basically learned agtech and pip work U utilities yeah uh still triggered every time time somebody says egte yeah I did that in college like I want nothing to do with that ever again those stupid colors and lines I really loved it like learning it and then it got you know it became monotonous oh yeah it's it's exciting when you're learning it then and then you really get into it it's just so frustrating to like trying to digitize plans or they like trying to this this one line won't connect to this line you're it's just blowing your number out somewhere when you run the report if you can't get a good Tad file from an engineer you got to trace that crap so it's like yeah which was like every project I worked on it seemed like yeah yeah so that could take forever I mean it could take you a week just to get your plans traced not even start the actual work of the takeoff y but yeah so learned that my buddy had uh who's also named Joe leadford not this Joe leadford obviously but another Joe leadford uh friend of mine he he was working with Phillips and Jordan and he's like man they're needing somebody here in Knoxville would you be willing to do it I was like yeah absolutely because that I mean I grew up in Western North Carolina knew Phillips and Jordan you know Robinsville company great company like dream job basically yeah and got the call interviewed um came came up here for for an interview in Knoxville and went to work for Philips and Jordan so when when did you go out on your own you said 2018 but was it after Phillips and Jordan it was it was yeah basically right after Phillips and Jordan I I did a brief stint of work with a a local concrete uh contractor in Knoxville yeah that I'm good friends with and yeah after that was completely my own and actually leadford and Parker that Joe leadford that I was talking about earlier they gave me my first project okay and what was the first project it was um Jackson Lake subdivision it was about 16,000 feet of Sil fence yeah and we went and put it in in probably three weeks I guess uhuh and had it wrapped up and didn't get another job for like three or four months sure so you get that first job did you had you quit your job to get that job Y and then what did you do for the three or four months did you just not have work yeah we just were scared to death um I say we it was basically just me yeah you know I was like is this going to work like did you have to buy any equipment to put the sil fence in or did you rent something no we um we rented their equipment from them okay um Tony like I know Tony and Joe and they believed in me more really than I believed even in myself at the time I'd always always knew that I'd probably start something on my own didn't know what it was going to be um erosion control I knew it uh I knew what it you know knew the products knew how to do it um felt very comfortable yeah and has a kind of a low entry fee uhuh uh to start yeah so it's tough work it is tough work it's very tough work it's uh you know rosion control I grew up in Arizona I didn't know I didn't I didn't know what erosion control was because dust control what they do well dust control is the big thing in Arizona because that's what they fine you for and so contractors care about whatever they get fined for exactly uh and so you go to somewhere in North Carolina you get fined for erosion control and so rosion control is buttoned up but that's like somewhere in Tennessee it's like like kind of a thing I feel like you know yeah we're definitely going to do it but if it doesn't you know if it's not perfect that's okay and then you go to other places it's like I no just just just what you know why would we waste our time that's stupid just just let a rip yeah I mean really it really depends state by state county by county absolutely City by city everywhere in the United States is different with erosion control all that for sure I mean and you also you really need to look at the Topography of the land thato and and the dirt the material the material it has a huge huge play on it the weather right exactly I've heard it's been wet out in the Carol Rec it's been a wet year yeah uhuh yeah everywhere feels like Southeast has been wet yeah um but I guess to explain erosion control to somebody that doesn't understand erosion control it is um you you want wherever you put the dirt you want it to stay you want that dirt to stay on side you want that dirt to stay water tries to move it around that's it and erosion control prevents that from happening there you go is that the simplest way you could put it erosion control is the due diligence of trying to prevent that sure yeah so it's inevitable it's if it rains on your job site are going to have some erosion issues no matter what doesn't matter what contractors doing your erosion control and there's some great ones out there there's some great erosion control companies out there that we admire and look up to yeah and are I feel like it's not necessarily competition it's more like they're they're our co-workers we we work together with these people and fight the battle so but yeah I mean if Grass Grows Fescue grows in 21 days no matter what nobody doesn't matter who planted it yeah know mean well that and so that but that's the challenge is when you're moving when you're doing earth work especially in a place like North Carolina yeah it's probably wooded Pine something like that yep uh grass all of that's the natural erosion control right all that's naturally keeping the dirt where where it should be for the most you remove all of that now nothing's keeping it together yeah cut the trees down strip the top soil yeah and now it starts to unravel yeah you've got a problem yeah and so anytime there's trenching Earthworks anything of the sort you all involved to try to slopes sloping yeah any kind of development activity whatsoever yeah you all are involved in trying to keep that all in check yeah during during the during the process and then trying to restore some of that natural erosion control when those activities are done precis stuff like that however the engineer designs yeah or Seas fit sure you know yeah I think erosion control is interesting too because you're one of the first ones into the project yeah we are yeah is that right it's cool to see um there's one in Hendersonville it was it was cool to like go out there and look at it before it started sure and then you know you drive past it eight months later it's like oh where's that Valley at what's going on yeah but there's also uh I guess challenges associated with that because you're the first ones in there for sure I mean you know the biggest thing that out hear is it's ready and it's not ready it's far from ready usually clearing is not you know cleared enough or whatever but you know that's typical yeah everybody wants everybody's got a schedule they want to meet yeah like goes I mean it is us you know we're the start so you know that signifies the beginning so somebody can get out there get uh just you know yeah typically pushing stops typically the first ones in and often the last ones out sure yeah yeah because you're and you're yeah you're there throughout the duration of the job too because there's a maintenance associated with it some can be there can be yeah a lot of lot of contract will will have a crew that may not be busy that can touch up silt fence or unload Sil fence or put another check Dam check Dam in you know whatever yeah and so that a lot of guys will do that themselves but yeah we get maintenance all the time for for work around here um and you know it's just jump to whatever projects needing well probably yeah we need you he yesterday something blew out you know got way more water than we thought we would it's a mess yeah um or they call you the day before the storm you know and it's like we got to get this done and you know you try your best to get stuff done and sometimes it's just it rains anyway and washes everything away sure so so the I guess the main um like the front lines of erosion control is Sil fence typically yeah is the is what's typically used in this area yep and it's quite literally a fence that's it y to stop sh yep that's like what 2 feet high three feet high it's three feet about three feet yeah but then you have put it's a 36 inch fence trenched in six to eight inches yeah and then yeah you've got depending on where you're at you may have metal TST or wooden post to hold to hold it in place yeah and then sometimes you'll have wire backing yeah and then the fabric super Sil fence when it's a chain link fence and then you yeah tie the seal fence to it that's always a good one to that's a lot in North Carolina you put in the chain Ling fence it's an existing fence you put it in oh so it's a lot more sturdy oh yeah it's holding up yeah I mean it's a it's a it's a 4ft chain link fence you know post aluminum what they two in 3 in post about two every 10et large corner post and then yeah I mean it's it's serious do you drive the post by hand no we did on that we got an inter we let him yeah that's a long day man we did on that one job there was only like, 1600 feet of it okay and some of it was pretty up heal I me yeah yeah yeah it's um because it's pretty tough work like it seems pretty simple putting up a little three-foot fence around a job site yeah but it can be pretty tough I haven't done a lot of it honestly because right I mean there's you know we joke about the hard hats and stuff yeah with uh even needing them you know we're there's nothing falling out of the sky when you're putting in a Sil to hurt you yeah but you know with that being said that the people installing the sil fence are the most at risk of getting hurt with the post and you see a lot of a lot of silk fence have a like a orange top it's it's just like a safety cap yeah for the for the fence but normally that's not really needed once it's actually installed because no one I mean the inspector might go out and look at it yeah if it gets messed up but because it's it's on the boundary of the site yeah so you're not working yeah um but it but it's just it it is labor intensive a lot of this stuff because you can only do you'll do your trenching mechanized means what Min exor skid steer or skid steer with a trencher yeah so you try to do as much of it with a machine as you can right bring that stuff out there moving material around but ultimately it's still pretty yeah you're still ensive yeah you're working you're earning it that's that's that's a hard day me and Clay bunting I cannot not mention clay he's the allstar he's our operations manager but he and I were talking the other day about you know you you say you put in 2,000 fet of silk fence in a day that's people don't realize that that's not just 2,000 ft you know like one time yeah you may walk that eight n Times by the time you get that installed uh and you know your hands are touching it every time yeah so it's it's very labor intensive it's all down you know you're crouching yeah yeah y t with zip ties I mean that it can tear you know it by the end of the day a guy that just ties zip ties all day yeah wore out yeah and your in your access sometimes isn't the best either no so you've got to get the stuff even back where it needs to go yeah running on a pave Road everywhere you go no no it's either skid steers side by sides I mean you without without a side by side we'd be lost I mean we'd be air trucks would be Tour all to hell I mean it'd be bad you know yeah but and they are they still get 12 yeah there's just no way no yeah um and so have you how have you grown the business over the over the years has a lot of it been Word of Mouth a lot of it has yeah a lot of it's been Word of Mouth um you know LinkedIn has been a a a big part of that has it yeah because you said you share a lot on there I see your stuff on there all the time so that's helped you out yeah it's definitely been helpful um I think people people are sleeping on LinkedIn man even even today just it's crazy it it's done nothing but good things for our business a hiring standpoint uh from a sales standpoint from a brand awareness standpoint for sure and you can you can what I love about LinkedIn is you can say I want to go Target Phillips and Jordan p&j yeah I just look up Phillips and Jordan and then go to people okay who's all the different people that work at Jordan and just say connect connect connect connect connect connect connect and then you know maybe like 20% of them accept some of them will people just will accept anything honestly yeah and then now they're seeing your stuff every day and so it's like it's the only yeah it's the only social platform you can really tailor uh who you're trying to go after on which is a such an advantage no cold call you know you don't have to cold call this person and you just have to explain to them what you're doing and yeah that's it or uh before I call somebody if it is cold I are they falling along they're falling along ledin score they've been seeing my [ __ ] for three years or whatever it is we've been connect since 2021 awesome and then I talked to him great conversation because yeah they already know they already feel like they know you yes I've never spoken with them never talked to their company but they know me it's like how could people not be all in on this the uh the first like thing I went to for this company was a solar farm Summit in Chicago with our operations manager clay and a girl up there was like is Thomas here I've seen his stuff on LinkedIn one day I just picked it up and called the phone cuzz I was liking what he was posting so I mean there you go right there yeah it's wild to cuz and and like for me I always think man what do people know what I'm doing like people don't really know what I'm doing maybe I'll just give them away that was my thought like I'll show them what we do yeah and try to explain it a little bit better because no you know so you're growing grass people think other things well it's it's weed comp Thomas wil but the the but but it but it also helps you I think with your existing customers because if I absolutely you know say I'm a young engineer on a site development project um I'm the guy probably in charge of the the sil fence you know Swift it's it's not going to be the boss in charge of s fense t typically that's one of the things like just just figure it out y um it's G to be kind of a pain in the ass for me like it's just something it's a box I need to check just get it done I don't I have understanding of it any appreciation of it typically speaking if I like I'm speaking for myself that's where we throw yeah but we live but but there's a there's an opportunity to educate people on here's what goes into it and here's why it's so important and here's what good work looks like here's what shitty work looks like here's the cost of shitty work because it can it can really C it can cost an operation that can really screw you up this big site development job can get dinged badly or shut down even shut down because of water quality which is crazy yep because I mean the people that you know you're building around I mean they necessarily don't want you there and I mean as soon as they see a little something coming off the LOD they're like okay let's call in here yeah so I mean gota it is important to keep it going to keep it running you gota keep it tight that is the greatest irony is uh you know wherever people are living they're living in a subdivision it's like how the [ __ ] [ __ ] you think you got that there and then but then another subdivision pops up next like hey hey wait a minute subis no Mone Street ever yeah yeah so yeah so then they're the ones on the phone you know calling in hey these uh over yeah y y thanks for noticing John when when I first started we parked the hydro seater in a neighborhood gosh man you know Brandon let's put our number on there bad idea sometimes cuz old I don't know what her name was let's say Karen called and was on this for weeks like move this thing what are yall doing your tires on my property you talk about scared I was scared I was like calling the people we were working for like I'm not there like I I'm three hours from there it it was here it was basically in Nashville yeah and we had no idea that we had our machine par on a dead end road that was leading to Karen's property uhhuh yeah so yeah happens I uh I think my second the second company I worked for we were doing a big subdivision outside of Phoenix real big subdivision next to a new subdivision but people were living there now go figure yeah but they they were not stoked about the construction right next to them by definitely definitely not stoked and so we're we're standing there first thing in the morning and I'm still I'm like 19 so I'm still like just on edge being on job sites honestly because I I know I'm out of place I like I know I'm not supposed to be there I know I can't really help many people I'm not worth a lot yeah kind of liability yeah and so like I know my place yeah exactly uh that's how I felt when I was with SH the same way they like you actually want me to drive that truck are you sure uhhuh um so yeah so so still a little on edge and and it's a big job so there's probably like you know 80 guys at that at the morning meeting every morning and the the superintendent site superintendent he's like you know throughout the talk he's like hey who the [ __ ] parked the the 308 over there and I it was like the first day I'd ever run the 308 because the guy was sick and they're like can you run it I'm like yes I can run it I had no idea what I was doing but but I was so stoked to being a machine and so I Parts the machine the end of the day you know brush my hand like day you know good days work I am a working man and I come back and he brings it up in the in the morning meeting yeah yeah and and he's like who the [ __ ] you know this this lady's been you know was calling all all yesterday complaining because we parked it in her view or whatever it is and I'm just sitting there shaking in my boots I'm like no no like this is like want to see that I'd be stoked on yeah yeah but she was she was not a fan so it's like the smallest stuff though the smallest stuff is the biggest problem to some of these people the biggest problem yeah so and man that you know I'm not trying to hate on that we didn't know yeah yeah I mean we were on her we were on her land I mean attire was on her land not really anything else but you know people I I get there's so much craziness going on today you know I and there's just um like a lack of understanding I feel like a lot of times it's just like you even I feel it sometimes sometimes I'll I'll be you know driving and like the trash truck's in the way I'm like who the [ __ ] does this guy think he is I'm like wait okay he this is thank you yeah yeah but but I'll have to catch myself be like dude CH just calm down because this is you you you're good but but it's just um you just so quickly think everybody is just a human being trying to support their families trying to do what they do that's all we're after here we're all in the same team everybody's Somebody's Baby that's it and every yeah everybody's somebody's child yes you know a lot of people are are parents you know it's just when you frame it like that it starts wow yeah this I heard Joe Rogan say that and that's the only reason I said it but when he said it it hit home for me yeah cuz I now have children and it's like man I don't want and I'm guilty dude I so guilty of road rage like I have it yeah and it's bad yeah and you know I have to keep myself in check it's is your company name on your truck no oh see that's how to keep yourself in check though if you put if you put your company on your truck yeah it's like that's a good idea you think twice man you drive a little bit better you're like yeah if I cut someone off and my name's on the back my phone number yeah I'm not telling them they're number one yeah yeah yeah yeah that's my cuz yeah our companies on on my truck and so it does yeah I do drive a little bit better yeah I mean smart uhhuh yeah um I guess the market what's the market you guys serve right now will you go all over so right now we're we're serving uh we're doing some solar Farms we just finished up a couple solar farms in Texas oh you'll go you'll go that far go Texas y wow y Texas too dude if I started a solar farm company right now government would just give me what what do you need yeah how much money here you Go's a check how many lamps do you want yeah yeah sounded great you want to grow under those names it's wild yeah seriously wild is it is it as big of a deal in Texas erosion control yeah yeah it is it is yeah yeah okay um it's like 23 miles wasn't it between the two jobs 23 miles driving distance F oh no there was 60 60 60 miles yeah holy smokes so we installed and maintained like 67 miles of Sil fence in Texas with that with that much do you have to have somebody full-time maintaining then just out there all the time so we we did um we had we we finished up basically after I think we had to maintain or we had to perform maintenance on probably seven miles yeah okay total I got you fence so it's mostly install yeah maintenance contract is maintenance separate or is that do you on it's usually in the same contract and it just lasts while we're there in doing the full the initial install and then once we finish the install completely they'll take over the maintenance sure and our guys will come home and I got you and then you'll come back to remove it all well or or they'll do they'll do it okay okay we had some good luck hiring some guys with the understanding in Texas that hey yeah when this job's over so you know we had a couple guys we could bring people home and still have it you know running out there for us JT Nicholls was a absolute super superstar for us and yeah and uh he he went out there and I mean he managed it he did a wonderful job yeah how many people do you all have run around right now we've got nine so okay but at any point in time that could change um when we were in Texas we had I think fif 15 or 16 yeah total cuz I guess I mean it fluctuates yeah it depends if you're doing like the installs obviously that's the most labor intens work need more people to do that exactly do you guys travel a lot I used to yeah I used to travel a lot yeah um with our with our new little boy been born I've not traveled near as much and thankfully I've got a great team that I can lean on that is able to and willing to to travel yeah um yeah we do travel is the quick answer um do I travel as much as I used to no yeah thank God I was so I do the estimating um so I do a lot of mine from home but I will travel to Tennessee you know few times a month quite often and then if we're gonna go see something together but you say he don't travel a lot but he was in Colorado for a 24hour trip to help him out and back so Texas Texas bouncing around yeah is uh where's the majority of your work right now um on the East Coast yep Nashville to newor North Carolina okay because the Nashville is really grown but the Carolinas yeah have just gone banana I mean Texas is another one that's G absolutely nuts Arizona Idaho Florida yeah but the Carolinas are just going right now because of all the manufacturing Nashville seems just like to be exploding I heard somebody referen that it was like the old Vegas out here the other day it's uh it's an interesting economy here because it's I guess there's old money here which is interesting we have Vanderbilt we have some universities tourism is probably the biggest industry then there's like some tech companies right some industry like Nissan's here bridgestone's headquarters here so really yeah it's it's a uh a really interesting blend of stuff but nothing super high-profile I guess yeah um and I Tennessee I think's played the whole manufacturing thing pretty smart I think we've had some pretty big plants built but nothing like South Carolina no and North Carolina but South Carolina South Carolina's blowing up like what do you want automotive manufacturer yes here take it whatever didn't did BMW they've been there for a while in Hyundai yeah they they're they're BMW is up in North Carolina okay uh maybe South Carolina too thought I feel like it's in South Carolina the biggest plan I know of I think but Volvo they just they just they've been doing expansions for years down there yeah uh Boeing they're big manufacturing they're going all in and then there's a bunch of these battery companies yeah that I have questions about yeah uh to say the least but these companies you've never heard of building like the biggest project in the state like what yeah excuse me this is the biggest project ever they're all like all these projects are just like I have never heard where is this company from Malaysia who are these guys it's all well sort of it's very quasa government because it's like yeah we're gonna we're gonna make an investment how much can you give us federal government oh yeah we we'll give you how many billions you want you need to buy these green incentives yeah so like it doesn't pencil without the federal government but I also can appreciate everybody's making hay while the sun shining true uh but the earthwork out um I don't know if did you ever go to the ases job the Toyota job oh man yeah was it Greensboro oh my gosh up up in up yeah is that Greensboro North Carina yeah uh I mean that that must have been like a five four thou four 5,000 Acre Site holy cow um there's one in South Carolina right now I know it's another 5,000 Acre Site like these are monsters that's crazy yeah and I can only imagine the erosion control 4,000 acre yeah oh my gosh the Manu is it manufacturing batteries are they just building the batteries there uh I don't think anybody knows actually but no that's a great question I don't know um no it's I think it's also manufacturing too okay for I know there's purely battery plants and then I know there's EV manufacturing plants okay um I guess Tennessee we got the blue oval the yeah the jur very much still out on that project but the Memphis that was a huge huge operation huge um so I guess there's big stuff here too yeah the south in general me Georgia is blowing up for sure the manufacturing coming into Obama uh Mississippi big projects really oh yeah oh yeah it's crazy what do we do in Mississippi lately we did we went to a landfill down there mhm so we do work on some land FS what will landfill need typically landfill typically needs if they're building a new cell um obviously Sil fence oh so they're digging yeah Hy so the full gamut of yeah erosion control Let Her Fly to Landfield with some Hydra yeah yeah I um landfills I think are fascinating but explain Hydra seating so Hydra seating is a it's not not new it's it's actually quite old it was invented to go on a slope um and I think that I think a lot of people get confused about that and they think oh this stuff it comes out green it's fast it's going to grow grass faster it's G to you know this is the magic yeah it's green this is the magic thing for growing grass and this works every time but yeah it doesn't it fails too but hydr seeding is a blend of mulch uh fertilizer typically lime in the Southeast we have to put lime down because of pH issues with soil okay and uh whatever grass seed that we need to plant or whatever type of seed that we're needing to plant I mean you could plant wild flowers or grass seed or whatever you want sure um but it's mixed up in a slurry it's got kind of like a batch plant if anybody's familiar with like concrete mhm uh gets mixed up you let it mix for 10 15 minutes and turn the clutch on spray it on a slope typically within 21 30 days or so you're going to see some grass it is pretty slick it's very slick it's almost like a magic trick yeah just wherever in theory wherever you spray this stuff the Grass Grows which is pretty neat it is cool yeah I mean I've seen it growing on like Gils and rocks you know yeah yeah um truck beds uhuh my own sides of the truck yeah but yeah it's it it's really cool but you know I think a there it gets people think that it's a magic cure all yeah sometimes gr for sure they've got it yeah and it It's tricky because that stuff has to cure just like not just like concrete but it has to cure out has to harden up um there's tacking it which allows it to stick to whatever it's sprayed to but that stuff has got to to cure sure and it takes about 24 48 hours and you've got a pretty good if you've had it on there for a couple of days you're pretty well in the safe safe Zone if it if it's calling for a weather event but if it if it if you spray it today it rains heavy tomorrow you can just wash it all off absolutely okay that's yeah yeah and then your soil is not always good enough to grow exactly stff yeah a lot of times oh yeah it's top soil yeah yeah yeah it's topole it's about 1% topole mixed in with field dirt you know because I guess to just explain the basics to people that don't know you strip a site the good stuff is only the very top yeah and if you're a top-notch site contractor or any site contractor you should scrape all that stuff off P to save it yeah because that's the good stuff but that doesn't always happen it doesn't and so they might say yes this is top SL we're good to go but it EXA what do the specs say what matter yes but yeah so you might just have normal dirt right which doesn't really grow much it doesn't have any any nutritional value for that seed to to germinate in and so a a lot of times it's good for the contractor like before they do anything just to get a soil sample of their project and send it off to we take airs to like the co-op and it's 20 bucks I mean it's cheap insurance to make sure that your site's going to be able to grow grass because the specs might say put 400 lb of triple n per acre well this Soul samples going to tell you exactly what to put in um what it's lacking okay um how much what to put in and how much of it to put in so will you sample everything you have to see no not not always uh some a lot of times people will want to do that as a afterthought like when things aren't growing I gotta um most of the time the specs are good yeah they're and if there's a section where it changes or it's outside of what the specs say you know you might have a ruling for a change order even so depends I guess that's the interesting thing with seed and and Sil fence and erosion control in general it's it's in the plan set yeah so it's part of the plans yeah I mean it's it's it's a good starting point for everybody to bid at yeah you know yeah it's Apples to Apples across the board so but there is um there is engineering behind it and there is a specification to meet this is the standard you got to be here it's not like do your best right yeah you do have cross your fingers yeah yeah yeah you are building you are building something I guess to say to put in a better yeah it's a permanent structure essentially is your grass is your is a permanent structure so the a lot of the grass you put down is just in theory going to stay there yeah forever forever once the slope is done the only thing that we do that's permanent is grassing is hydro seeding the only way for grass though can aren't there uh isn't there like a blanket kind of thing you can put down so we can there's so many different ways you can spread grass or plant grass there's uh drill SE yeah you can drill SE it you could just throw it out by hand or like just broadcast it with a huge Hopper okay and a tractor and I guess I worked in in Washington state briefly and we were working for this guy Fred and he was uh just a character you know missing a few fingers on both hands and like one of those guys and just worth a ton of money he had this quy at kiit who we were paying him just loads of money to take rocks from this place and uh and he just you know wor the same shitty coveralls every day just just looked like a mess this guy but we um probably saw the Earth dude though oh oh as good as yeah oh yeah just as good as it gets yeah perfect perfect Cory owner you want to be it's not like one of the big corporations go God help you working with one of those but I uh um there was like a road around the Quarry and I this was before I had four-wheel drive perfectly figured out and so I'd you know slide around every once in a while and and get pretty stuck once in a while and would just make an absolute mess of of places and just get all this mud all over the place and tear up the grass so on so forth and I remember one of the old guys he's like all right we've got to seed it and he just had like a hay bale and he just started spreading the the hay out on the and I was like what is that gonna do like this is this makes no sense to me I go back the next week the grass is all there and it looks beautiful it's like no way this has you can just grow grass by putting hay on stuff but again kid from Arizona you just don't know I wouldn't typically say that you could do that surely Somebody went for him and put some seed down did they I don't know no no it was I I don't know what kind of hay it was but it was just like straw straw yeah it was like straw I mean s grass yeah could be I mean you could just have the seeds in the in the hay and I I feel like that's what it was because it it looked gorgeous a lot of times like you're supposed to like get something contained or covered yeah within like 14 days in Tennessee and if it's Disturbed and going to be remain Disturbed for longer than 14 days uhuh you need to have it seated um once that 14 day Mark kids even like um like stockpiles yes hey like we're going to stockpile dirt here we're not gonna touch it for 12 months yeah you'll see that that just just keep it there there yeah so it's not washing away going into the drainage or whatever having a fish kill yeah but what is the big deal about I know you don't want stuff to wash off your sight but what's the big deal about it getting into the the oh yeah man you can you could really have an environmental effect I mean I'm not like some hippie dippy uh guy yeah I'm I hunt I you know it's but it's important like it's real important I like I'm a fisherman um M if if dirt if a lot of dirt goes into a Waterway it can have a very negative effect effect on like the oxygen level within the water okay and surprisingly fish need that oxygen in that in that water so to breathe and to live and that there's some there's been some serious uh serious problems with some solar farm Ms that I've seen uh washing away um into it's been bad yeah um so it does cause serious issues yes yeah it can be you know not just to that not just to the wildlife you know you if you affect the fish you're affecting just like everything that eats that fish mhm so outside of that Creek or you know little muscles that live in the in the water yeah anything that's surviving on that wildlife in the water is going to be affected by that and that's that can be a big deal well like I guess if you wash enough into areas too you can start to mess the drainage up start change flows and all that as well with that much material in there yeah um and so the different agencies have inspectors right uh like do has an inspector like do so it's similar Vibe yeah where there's people their full-time job is just to enforce make sure that people are doing their due diligence and and doing the best they can yeah to keep the erosion at Bay to to control it as much as they possibly can to keep it on site so if there's problems and it was one of your jobs are you on the hook for that I would say so yeah yeah well it's really the owner of the Swip um so Swip is a storm water pollution protection plan and S SW PPP everybody in the construction industry if they've been around it for a year or so they've probably seen a swift um a lot of newbies that's what uh they'll be doing whenever they go to do like maybe estimating they'll be doing a takeoff for the erosion control yeah and they might be calling people like me to get a number from from us for Sil fence or seeding or whatever been there and yeah me too and uh yeah that that Swip is is an engineered piece of it's a document it's almost like a I I compare it a lot to a safety plan um safety plans need to be able to change and so do sweat plans um Swip plan is something that the contractor can use at their advantage to cover their own butts basically if but if it's installed outside of what's on the Swip it needs to be redlined on the Swift drawings and so when an inspector comes say from the state uh you you can show them hey this wasn't on here but we had some real issues we put in check down leading into some fence and think we've got it managed but you know that's just a hypothetical yeah scenario because I guess yeah the plans are the theory but as we know yeah engineering doesn't always get it right right for you know plenty of different reasons so once you get out there and you start putting stuff in you're like hey yeah this is this doesn't make any sense whatsoever right and a lot of times we'll see Sil fence like on a ridg line like and it's like why would you ever put Sil fence I mean the only water that's ever going to hit it is what Falls straight out of the sky sure yeah because water gra because of yeah the way water and gravity work it I mean with the change in direction of flow I mean we were on a solar farm probably when I first started and I mean where it had flowed you know the arrays and everything were already in I mean we could see the brace you know the post like five or six foot of it that was supposed to be I mean it was washed out so mean that things coming down you let that happen too much across the whole 30 Acres you know I guess that that is interesting too because the water with the natural contouring flows a certain way y but with Earthworks you're modifying the contouring changing the whole which then modifies the way the water interacts with the S exactly that's interesting yeah and I'm a I think that solar farms and I'm not trying to kick anybody but I think they could do a better job of controlling that flow um around the site maybe storm drainage or something yeah put in because there's I mean it's rarely that that you see just a even just a ditch just a normal ditch by Road they're using all the prop much as they can I mean yeah put solar yeah you're making more money exactly yeah yeah it's interesting too um in North Carolina I know there's a lot of ponds um because that's this is just stuff you don't really think about but if you build a giant box or even like a parking lot the water would go into the ground on that area naturally but now the water doesn't go into the ground yeah and now you've got to put it somewhere um and so all these North Carolina sites especially have these gigantic ponds yeah Bas BS do you have any involvement any of any of that stuff yeah so we we'll put in um what they call baffles in those B basins and it's it's a it's a fence it's another fence typically there's three rows of it and it looks like um juk mesh it's actually called core fiber blanket but it it lays over the top of a nine gauge wire and you put toost every four feet and the the theory is that when that water rushes down to the uh Outlet point we call it um that it'll catch the larger debris like leaves and sticks and what whatnot that's going to flow through that and it that does a good enough job and then typically we'll see the slopes not the bottom of the pond but just the slopes yeah the inside slopes and mat okay a lot of matting typically on those ponds what is matting so matting is like that double net straw blanket it's it's you it's rolled erosion control product yeah um and then it has like the giant Staples yeah yeah yeah yeah okay man that stuff sucks I mean it's terrible and I remember making a post one time that was like I don't think there's a company dumb enough out there to do this fulltime but we're getting real close but it seemed like there for like a summer that's all we were doing was madting and man it got is got brutal really labor intensive yes because you're wrestling it all day or yeah yeah working on a slope all day we were starting in South Carolina we had a uh another Landfield yeah we had another Landfield and we were starting at like 3:00 am I think I think we were starting at 3:00 am we worked from 4: am to noon why so early because it was hot it was so hot and I mean it was just killing us I mean we we'd be dog dead tired if we went in at 8 or 7 work till noon it'd be kind of like over with yeah you'd be yeah toast yeah so getting up a little earlier in that cooler morning air helped a ton but that's a I'll never forget that project yeah we I guess that's another thing when I was working we everybody would start way earlier but I feel like in the South honestly the south is just more laidback when it comes to work culture I feel like it's just not as much of a hustle so it's like seven we start seven seven start seven yeah like that like that's that's insane man 7 o' that's crazy that's like yeah that's like the standard around here especially if you're pouring concrete in Arizona or Texas summer you've got to be done by seven seven like done you're you're not you're not getting anything done out yeah yeah you gotta have that stuff R out Bice by the time the Sun hits it yeah yeah once Sun's Up you're done man so it's it's uh it's just a different a different game out there yeah it's wild yeah um yeah those those mats are interesting I I haven't dealt with it a whole lot I just know the the Staples yeah you think it's kind of it's like you'll have bruises on your hands in your palms so do you do you just whack them in your hands yeah that's what I do really yeah huh if the ground soft enough yes yeah and that's where the bruises come but I you know there's companies that make sticks that you can use but it slows you down sure to have to try to get there partic it's not cost efficient either like some of these tools that are for the erosion control industry at the end of the day R yeah the person with the lowest bid wins the job so you know you can't always use these high flutin cont fancy tools yeah but but do you do you get uh carried around by some customers as well uh so garney's been a really good team member for us just had a call with them really yeah yeah they been good yep Ben shout out Ben and Zack blenfield really gave me my first shot after that uh job with leedford and Parker okay finished up because I feel like there's a cost component to what you guys do but at the same time it's nice to just have somebody that you know is going to do a good job yeah just just carry him around where you need to go yeah it makes sense to me but yeah and you know those those projects in uh in Texas are very real similar we we did one for the same company uh back in 2021 yeah and you know it's that that was a BL in having them call us this year for these couple of projects it really helped and we probably go back in November to do another one I gotta is it a lot of bidding to keep up with this stuff because these projects are pretty and I'm bidding all the time I mean you know I'm trying to put out five a week four you know just and good ones you know not just throwing numbers out there trying to yeah not the really go through them not Applebees yeah well because it's probably a tough Market too uh I mean it's like the market I guess I was in with the media stuff MH I got in it because you just buy a camera there you go you like that's the kind of the reason why you got in it low buried entry but then it also becomes you know blessing and curse yes it becomes part of it because anybody can do erosion control and I say that anybody quote unquote but there's probably uh just people spping away all over the place just a new company every every day somewhere just like you just asked him I mean there's a lot of people carrying guys just like Garney and leadford and Parker you know they've got their PWC you know so it's hard to get in front of them sure I was listening to your uh question and answer podcast on the way out here and you talked about like building your business with some reliable uh people people you knew you could work with well yeah uh left Parker gy Moss those you know that's where a majority of our business you know repeat customers yeah shout out to uh picket Industries too ER those boys are to them some good people yeah I um like I I don't see anything wrong with depending upon these bigger companies good people at these bigger companies I don't see anything wrong with that right people in the right spot right people yeah and typically you know our pricing is still it's fair yeah with whoever we're bidding against too so and bid against this B me if you're listening to this podcast and you're an erosion control person bid I mean there is work for all of us and this there there's not a company around that can do it all and if they're saying it they're wrong yeah so so yeah and I'm I'm happy to you I've I've helped guys uh bid work before that just were starting out and it's a privilege to get a phone call from somebody that's never done this before and W to chitchat get something going yeah what it's quite fun honestly like this um this one girl she messaged me on LinkedIn I people I don't know because I'm busy they just assume I'm very hard to get a hold of but it's like if somebody messages me I'll typically get back to him I'm like hey can I meet with you yeah sure you can meet with me I I don't I don't I don't mind so it was one of those she just reached out hey could I just talk to you about social media and she'd like just out of college yeah you know real new to what's going on at a big Aggregates company and oh wow she just asked me questions for 30 minutes like hey if I can help you out avoid some of these some of these mistakes I'm so about it absolutely so about it I love helping people out when I can um and I think it's true for every body but that's also I've played that in a different way too like a lot of people struggle with the older generation I never really have though because I've just been if you're just so curious and so genuine yeah and and wanting to P it's not that hard to get these guys to talk it's not I I was probably I you know was in a production manager for a lot of My Life um but man them guys that are like 50 or 60 that just you know they don't show up late they come to work they they might need extra cigarette break whatever but I me they're getting it done just like you said if you're you know really inquisitive and you really want to learn they'll and they've always helped me I I'd be nowhere without some of these guys yeah yeah have just taught me showed me their oopes I mean some of it just how to be a man too I me you learn I me you learn from itce everybody doesn't learn from an ass chewing but everybody needs an ass chewing sometimes and even me you know like in sitting in TWC as TWC and I have learned more in my career from those hard conversations maybe not as Tans maybe it's just a hard conversation I think it's um a direct conversation yeah being treated like a man yeah but I heard someone say it shouldn't be hard because that's how you help people improve and that's how you get better as an organization which I like it's like and because I framed it as hard conversation too but it's like okay if I keep saying something's hard over and over and over again that it becomes hard it but it shouldn't be hard it's not it's not comfortable no I don't look forward to it no but afterwards you're like I am so glad that conversation happened yep on either end uh from a leadership standpoint I'm glad faster than when I'm on the other side I think the other side's harder in a lot of ways takes yeah it takes a little bit more time but um everybody takes correction a different way you know that's really a hard conversation is one correct in a problem you know I mean most of the time but you but you also don't want people that can't at all take correction like I think that's also a sign that that ain't going to work yeah you got to go somewhere else man this is not going to work out yeah um but feel like over the past few years especially I've learned to be more direct and I still have a long way to go yeah but every time I am I'm so glad so so so glad it always works out better and and truthfulness and that goes along with being honest you know with your people like if you can be direct and honest in a quick way you can solve so many more problems quicker yeah and be out of the woods you know if you're in the woods maybe you're not even in the woods yet and someone's about to make a bad decision if you can be direct and say yo stop like we gota redo something here because this this just isn't working but yeah I think I think the guys that we've got right now I I love working with them um they they're humble um they care about their work it's it's exceptionally it's been an exceptional year this year Watching JT in particular just like grow as not just like guy with their company but like as a person yeah um dude's been through some stuff and he's he's a better man for it and I you know I don't want to get into too much here but JT I love you dude if you hear this JT I think that's at least for me that's by far the most fun thing is just seeing people grow yeah yeah but but the people but seeing people grow I just I really love seeing them do better and even just the little stuff it's like wow yes wow they're really like becoming somebody this is really cool to see a lot of times I put a hashtag watch us grow on the end of our stuff and I'm not talking about the grass talking about the grass no it's it's it's a lot of fun and I think all these a lot of these companies are under this assumption that they can just find these experienced people but I I think all the companies that are winning and will win long term understand we've got to develop the people we need yes and yeah we need the experience but we've got to develop a majority of our Workforce going forward there's just no way around it yeah um but I think yeah it's it's it's harder to do that and yeah it takes more time and more money but you're so much better off for it in the long term so much better off the the person that can train the best is your best employee yes that is no doubt well that and that's I think one of the things military does really well is they take their highest performer the Marines Marines specifically they take their highest performers and they make them in charge of recruiting oh that's smart so any of the Marines that are doing recruiting are typically Best in Class because they realize hey if we want the Best in Class we've got to put our best first and foremost but in in you know if you're a traditional organization well I don't want to take my best-in-class people out of a production setting yeah but like yes there are realities especially small businesses yeah you you only have so much bandwidth so you you can't just be doing that kind of stuff but it it it I think people take it too literally I think you also you can't just be so consumed with what's going on today that you forget about you know next week next month next year yes I think that's part of it is how we're gonna slow down the site like are they managing the crew the material the equipment the our client uhuh you know and JT just knocked it out of the park yeah and I'm just so proud of him so our operation manager Kay bunting yeah uh I was his supervisor probably 12 13 years ago now in North Carolina I saw I was a production manager when I saw that he uh was changing jobs me and Thomas went to high school together okay but you know as you do you fall apart i' still talk to Thomas here and there you know once twice year something like that yeah but yeah as soon as I saw clay put it on Facebook that he's moving jobs or something I think it's 5 in the morning I called him I was like clay you got a job you you want a job come on work because I was like getting clay clay clay is the man clay clay can do anything yeah whatever you want to put in front of him it's getting done and he's like man I'm going to Tennessee I'm gonna work for this uh TWC and he didn't know that me and Thomas High School I was like oh really man I was like well you know me and Thomas were buddies in high school he's like really and I called Thomas I probably haden't talked to Thomas in a year and I was like dude you just hired the guy that is uh one of the best workers you're ever gonna see in your life yeah I had no idea what he was talking about when he called and but I was like yeah okay I've heard this [ __ ] before everybody is yeah I was coming to get clay though I think I think that's also part of it is always looking for people too just looking like I feel especially thanks social media yes I'm always scouting for talent always scouty and it's like I don't know if we'll ever connect those dots but I'm keeping my eye on this like we just had something happen the other day somebody shared online yeah looking for a new opportunity been foll them for a long time sent their information to to one of to to Jason like you got to look into this because this is I don't know if this works or not but right hey you know they're on they're on they're on my list people to watch yeah they're looking so let's see if we can make something of it um but I think scouting scouting is a big piece too you always got to be looking it is and man there's people that do way much a way better job of that than we do um a lot of times our scouting is just like a a what's it called indeed you know we'll throw ND thing on there and maybe post it to LinkedIn and you it's hit or miss yeah you yeah with what you're looking for espe it is hit or miss yeah we've got some good I mean we've got some of the best uh leadership in the erosion industry I'm convinced and without a doubt even under them they care a lot for Thomas I mean as a man as a person yeah and he does a good job of caring for these guys you know it's not I hope so it's not just a paycheck I mean you know it's it's that and you know if they need help I think they know I know Clay does me and clay have been friends for a long time and I'm glad clay getting ready to go to Colorado and elk hunt yeah I can't wait to do that one day yeah i' just gota we're getting a back save up man going to chase elk with a both it's just it's an expensive hobby it is but you get something let me know I'd love like a pound or two even yeah yeah you'll have to come to Knoxville or [Music] Andersonville oh man man yeah good good elk there's just nothing like elk I love so good but I I just never really get my hands on it I mean I you're so busy man I know you really me I'd eat it every day though if I if I had just even just ground elk so if anybody's listening you got any send some hit me up spons happily take it does bies have uh but that's not the good stuff that's that's the that's the the that's the grazed stuff you got you've got get the stuff up in the mountains just [ __ ] living dude like just grinding out there man I'm so excited about this yeah one of our other buddies on the way out here sent us this uh him bugling just him bugling that's it and we're me and Claire like hell yeah man that's sounds aw I never heard have you have you ever been no this be my first time yeah wow back last month me and uh my buddy Jerome went who's going with us we went last month and did some scouting for a week and yeah that was my first experience just walking around camping up in Colorado but beautiful Colorado is gorgeous holy cow yeah it's something else as soon as we got home I was like Jal I gotta bid some work in Colorado yeah we had and she's like no yeah yeah she like what are you talking about pretty nice pretty nice yeah I uh I every time I go to colado I'm like yeah I get it I do too I get it I get it I do too I know why 70s packed out on Friday evening going towards the mountains yeah that that's the problem the car it's just so cra true man that's I'm more of a Montana guy oh okay there's just still not a lot going on and it's so much bigger yeah so it is I mean that really is I mean that's kind of like the perfect yeah it really we did a family road trip last year and I drove from North Carolina to Yellowstone so we went through that's a long drive a good time I got three little girls too so there's a lot of nothing between point a and point B it was a good time you've got to go just it's just corn for like 24 hours yeah corn and soy how many blue cars you say y yeah yeah that's that's a good SP with my little eye yeah another cornfield well I mean you guys are a small operation but like I've been falling for years there's not a lot of erosion control guys on the internet saying here's what we do there's not yeah um you got like I could I couldn't even off the top of my head I couldn't even tell you another one I can I'm G shout out native land company Ross Blair uh you got the erosion the erosion company um you've got Central Carolina seed uh maybe I've seen that hydr green hydr Green's kind of a I think they're kind of a newer company that's that I've not seen a whole lot of in the past but they're doing some amazing work I mean they're and and they've grown Leaps and Bounds uhuh uh but they're yeah I think they're out of Alabama maybe okay um there used to be a good one and I had a mentor for a while Philip laner p&l careful that oh yeah I'm sorry you're I'm good um Philip lanir and Tracy lanir they were they're still friends of mine but they they sold their outfit a couple years back I believe but they were amazing I mean they did some great work in the Charlotte North Carolina area and really Coastal Carolina yeah from Charleston to Newburn probably yeah we know I guess not in your area as much like but the Charlotte area yeah know a lot of good good folks out there like a OA Wayne brothers there's some there's some good good good companies yeah uh arnhart uhhuh yep yep yep yep yeah Morgan corp Morgan corp yeah yeah there's a there's just there it's just shout out my stud KY banon there he's gonna like that something to be yeah send us something to be a come on so if people yeah um if people want to follow along yeah uh just look you up on LinkedIn is that the best place that's the best thing yeah um I've got a LinkedIn thing for the company but really it's just me you're on Instagram too yep Instagram um I I have slacked off on Posting and Dan Brisco made a comment the other day on LinkedIn that I think ruffled some feathers about your competitors thank you for not posting on Linkin oh oh did he oh yeah that awesome dude he's been uh yeah he was messaging me this morning he's like man I think I struck a nerve on one of these F yeah yeah I think it was our PTO post that he said really really and it's just dude LinkedIn is so funny because you've got every eye but but like Instagram most everybody's pretty cool sometimes you'll just get some [ __ ] like just talking [ __ ] but like but they'll talk [ __ ] like you know a sentence yeah but on LinkedIn it's so funny because people will it's like they're basically calling you an [ __ ] but in a whole drawn out paragraph to prove how much more intelligent they are and it it it just cracks me every time I'm like bro just like go have a beard what you need I got a buddy who lives to troll people like that and then when they come at him but it's so easy Spong spell something wrong it's over no but like the I I I made a post it's it'll go up on like in a few days watch it's I uh and I've done it before because I know this is going to happen it was how to save small contractors money on fuel prices hedging fuel you know you buy your 5,000g fuel truck and you're good to go man that's 700 something tanks of fuel on a Min exavator it showed that like 301 or whatever that thing was and it pans over this 5,000 gallon yeah but like like anybody with with common sense that's obviously the stupidest the stupidest thing in the world it'll go up on LinkedIn I will have paragraphs explaining how the economics don't work I I I'm comment on it now when I see it I'm be like this the best yes yeah it's just so fun like it's inevitable too like you're gonna get it oh yes I mean you you have a huge Fallen too Aaron I mean and people want I mean I don't know what it is about the internet but everybody wants to prove each other wrong it seems like yeah but but I it's just it's so much fun to mess with those people I will never I'll never go out of my way to be an [ __ ] to somebody but if they come over to my house and they're rude to like my wife yes I'm gonna be an [ __ ] like hey you came in here you walked in the door now I be an [ __ ] it's on man but then I do I do it just by being like so kind like or or it it was like some guy just wrote like even just something stupid the other day like I can't believe this guy so popular whatever it is and and I just respond like who hurt you Craig just stuff like that and it just it just makes people so mad I got a buddy that so good I don't know what happened one day I I was on Twitter and that's probably or X and it's man that can be a very toxic place you know get you triggered yeah yeah man Barbara straan had said something about like like shooting groundhogs is bad or something like that and somebody replied and I just wrote back oh you didn't have a daddy growing up huh like oh no then it it was on like they they attacked and rightly so I should not have said that but but sometimes you go looking for it you're like let's let's see let's see what yeah yeah yeah I just do like I do you know exactly who you're doing like let's see how many people I can get angry by by a well-placed stupid comment and then just sit back and giggle when they say stupid stuff I love I love the comments in general like like man I was watching a post uh this morning and and someone just said the comments I'm like yes this is one of those and so it was these guys in a trench it's raining and he's on his porch in his house and he's like man yeah these these guys you know Friday night probably questioning their career voices you know just some just some like out there working and and just like one of the comments like this guy probably closes the fridge door with his hip stuff like that like just cracking me up man like just this obviously like feminine man saying it like that like but it was like 30 comments like that of how how girly this guy is a yeah yeah the internet remains on the you got to stop at that post yeah yeah yeah you just see one you're like all right that's enough internet for today we're good oh man cool well yeah love what you guys do and maybe I'll get to see it for myself one of these days who knows yeah sure I mean come to Knoxville I've probably seen your handiwork at some point driven right by it I'm sure yeah yeah especially around Knoxville yeah well and here and here and here yeah that's right sweet well thanks for uh thanks for coming guys man thanks for having us it's been it's an honor thing seriously [Music]