>>> BUGS, MOLD, AND MILDEW, THAT IS WHAT INSPECTORS SAY THEY FOUND AT A BOAR'S HEAD PLANT THAT'S BEEN LINKED TO A NATIONWIDE LISTERIA OUTBREAK THAT'S BLAMED FOR AT LEAST NINE DEATHS. THE HEALTH VIOLATIONS ARE DETAILED IN RECORDS RELEASED BY THE AGRICULTURE DEPARTMENT. SOME SPECIFICS INCLUDE INSECTS IN OR AROUND DELI MEATS, MOLD AND MILDEW NEAR SINKS WHERE EMPLOYEES WASH THEIR HANDS, A "RANCID SMELL" IN A COOLER, AND LEAKING OR POOLING WATER IN THE PLANT, ONE PUDDLE SO BAD IT HAD "GREEN ALGAL GROWTH INSIDE." BARBARA COWALCHUK JOINS US NOW. HOW DOES IT GET THIS BAD? HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN? >> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME. I THINK ONE OF THE -- IT'S VERY UNFORTUNATE THAT IT GOT THIS BAD. CLEARLY, THERE WERE MULTIPLE BREAKDOWNS IN FOOD SAFETY SYSTEMS, BOTH WITHIN THE ESTABLISHMENT. LISTERIA IS A VERY DEADLY PATHOGEN THAT WE KNOW IS ASSOCIATED WITH READY-TO-EAT PRODUCTS LIKE DELI MEATS. THERE'S BEEN NUMEROUS OUTBREAKS IN THE PAST. OBVIOUSLY THERE WERE BREAKDOWNS AT THE ESTABLISHMENT WHEN YOU LOOK AT ALL THESE INSPECTION REPORTS AROUND SANITATION, AROUND PHYSICAL HAZARDS, AROUND RECORD KEEPING AND IT WAS REPEATED OVER TIME WHICH SUGGESTS THAT THERE WERE ORGANIZATIONAL, CULTURAL ISSUES IN THE ESTABLISHMENT AROUND FOOD SAFETY. UNFORTUNATELY, OUR REGULATORY SYSTEM ALSO HAD A FAILURE IN THAT THIS PROBLEM WENT ON FOR QUITE SOME TIME DESPITE DOCUMENTATION BY INSPECTORS, BUT YET THE PLANT WASN'T CLOSED DOWN OR THEY DIDN'T RECALL THE PRODUCT. >> TELL US WHAT HAPPENS. WALK US THROUGH A TYPICAL INSPECTION FOR SOMETHING LIKE THIS FOR PEOPLE WHO MAY BE BUYING ANY KIND OF DELI MEAT FROM NOW ON. WHAT'S THE NORMAL COURSE OF EVENTS? HOW DOES IT GO? >> FIRST OF ALL, I'M NOT AN INSPECTOR. I'M AN ACADEMIC, BUT UNDER USDA REGULATIONS EVERY PLANT THAT PRODUCES MEAT AND POULTRY PRODUCTS HAS TO BE INSPECTED ON A DAILY BASIS. SO THAT MEANS EVERY DAY AN INSPECTOR GOES THROUGH. THEY KNOW THE REGULATIONS. THEY'RE GOING TO DOCUMENT THOSE, CHECK TO MAKE SURE THAT THE ESTABLISHMENT IS MEETING THOSE REGULATIONS AND WHEN THEY DON'T, THEY WRITE WHAT'S CALLED A NONCOMPLIANCE REPORT OR IT'S SOMETIMES REFERRED TO AS AN NR. THOSE NRs DOCUMENT PROBLEMS IN THE PLANT AND WHAT WAS RELEASED SHOWS THAT OVER THE PAST YEAR THERE HAVE BEEN MULTIPLE VIOLATIONS, AS YOU ALREADY POINTED OUT, THAT SUGGEST ONGOING SANITATION ISSUES. MEAT AND PROTEIN RESIDUE ON EQUIPMENT, ON THE WALLS, AND THAT SUGGESTS THEY WEREN'T CLEANING AS THOROUGHLY AS THEY SHOULD. THERE WAS ALSO CONDENSATION REPORTED IN THE COOLERS AND LEAKING PIPES AND ONE THING, LISTERIA AND MOST FOOD-BORNE PATHOGENS LOVE WATER. SO IF YOU HAVE STANDING WATER, YOU HAVE CONDENSATION AROUND, THEY CAN GROW AND THEY CAN ACTUALLY FORM BIOFILMS WHICH ARE INCREDIBLY HARD TO GET RID OF. >> WOW, OKAY. I'VE GOT 10,000 QUESTIONS FOR YOU BUT NOT ENOUGH TIME. THE USDA ISSUED A STATEMENT TO CBS SAYING IT WAS RELYING ON THE STATE TO OVERSEE THE VIRGINIA BOAR'S HEAD PLANT. IS THAT THE REGULATORY SYSTEM BREAKDOWN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT? IS THAT NORMAL? >> THAT IS NORMAL. SOMETIMES WHAT THE REGULATORY AGENCIES DO, BOTH USDA DOES THIS AND FDA DOES THIS, IS SOMETIMES THEY DELEGATE INSPECTIONS TO THE STATE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH OR THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE DEPENDING ON THE STATE. SO THAT'S NOT UNCOMMON. THEY GET PAID TYPICALLY TO DO THAT AND THEY SERVE AS AN INSPECTOR, AS A USDA INSPECTOR ON BEHALF OF USDA. THE PROBLEM IS THAT EITHER THE INSPECTOR DIDN'T TAG THE PRODUCT OR DIDN'T SUGGEST THE PLANT NEEDED TO BE SHUT DOWN OR THE SUPERVISORS DIDN'T ASK FOR IT. THERE WAS OBVIOUSLY A FAILURE IN THAT COMMAND CHAIN THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN. >> BARBARA, FINAL QUESTION, IS THIS SYMPTOMATIC OF A LARGER PROBLEM OR MIGHT THIS JUST BE A SERIES OF BAD KIND OF LOCALIZED TO THIS ONE PLANT TO THIS ONE CHAIN OF BAD EVENTS? >> WELL, OUR FOOD SYSTEM IS VERY COMPLEX. REMEMBER, OUR FOOD COMES FROM THE ENVIRONMENT AND YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT WE HAVE LOTS OF TOOLS IN OUR TOOLBOX TO HELP PREVENT CONTAMINATION OF FOOD AND IF YOU REMEMBER BACK TO COVID AND OUR SWISS CHEESE MODEL, IT WORKS IN FOOD SAFETY AS WELL. SOMETIMES ALL THE HOLES LINE UP AND SOMETHING BAD HAPPENS. CLEARLY, WE HAVE TO DO BETTER. THE COMPANY NEEDS TO DO A ROOT CAUSE ANALYSIS AS TO WHAT HAPPENED AND THE AGENCIES NEED TO DO A ROOT CAUSE ANALYSIS TO FIGURE OUT WHERE THE BREAKDOWNS WERE AND HOW TO PREVENT THEM GOING FORWARD. THE BOTTOM LINE IS AMERICAN LIVES ARE AT STAKE. THERE ARE NINE PEOPLE DEAD BECAUSE OF THIS FAILURE. >> EXACTLY RIGHT, WELL PUT. THANK YOU