6. The Takedown of the USA and Adventism - Dwight Howard - September 5, 2024

good morning brothers and sisters and welcome to the last study of this week in the takedown of the USA and adventism before we begin the study shall we thank our heavenly father for His blessings through this week and ask for his continued guidance so that we might have an understanding of that which he would present to us at this time shall we pray loving father in Heaven we thank you for all of the blessings that you have been providing we ask you father for your guidance and your direction help us as we open your word and we look to open the words of your Prophet that we might make sense of things that we are reading May our minds be open and receptive may your spirit help us direct us and guide us in all things so that we may more properly glorify your name and give glory to your character I thank you for those that are in this study today I thank you for those that will view this study later on the internet I ask your blessing upon all direct us now so that what we read we might truly understand help us to this end for this we thank you and we praise you in Jesus name amen okay now yesterday did we finish article forh we came to a conclusion yeah okay so this this little portion from first Samuel 13 verse 21 yet they had a file for the Maddox that does not mean that the children of Israel had a file it means that the Philistines had a file well it means that they were charging them for filing so the idea there's a word there that should be translated as price all right yeah so the idea is that they had a price for fing thematics and the all the other inst implements okay now with that being the case we will then go into this on part five subtitled Gideon's men now is this on the screen before you yeah okay the paragraph Begins the use of Bible types can help us to see things in a different perspective than we would normally see in today's world of adventism in C in terms of Bible study I would venture to say that it is through the use of many different translations of the Bible that most people arrive at their conception of Bible truth coupled with the various denominational books television and other popular Ministries we as a people form our conclusions on the best sounding or the most plausible explanation s that seem to agree with the closest with scripture in other words we let others form the conclusions and we simply pick the one that we think is trustworthy or most suitable now now okay you have some comments on that well I was I was going to say that this paragraph basically lines out exactly what we just talked about about having their own file having their own file but what we just talked about from the Fourth Article yeah well about the fact that the the Philistines have the files but he he makes the assumption that it's the children of Israel that has their own file yeah yeah but you know what he's saying here is uh it's partly true um so I think the problem that people have in how they study because I've spent a lot of time thinking about this you know ever since I was quite young actually is how people learn how they draw conclusions okay and you know my conclusion is that people generally just believe things that they're told even if they don't always match other things they believe that is we generally don't have very systematic way of deciding how we even came to the conclusions that we have so there's lots of different ways in which we draw conclusions one is they're just they're not even conclusions they're just presuppositions right they're just things we're told we always believe uh we never question them you know you could use examples like uh you know how we wash the dishes right you know people can actually be quite emotional about how they was the dishes that there is a right way to wash dishes you know whether you dry them with the towel or not whether you let them air dry you know do you have the tap running when you rinse them do you put them in a dishwasher instead of washing them by hand you know so there's lots of things like that in in all areas of our life right that we never question and that if somebody does it differently we we actually just think they're wrong right so all these values and and preferences and ideas now that also you know applies to how we understand the Bible you know how we're brought up um when it comes to uh the scriptures and uh so you know there's there's when we when we listen to sermons we just kind of oh that kind of sounds good it fits in with what I already understand there isn't a lot of critical thinking generally speaking that goes into how we form our belief systems that's my that's my experience with you know dealing with other people and and myself as well I mean we all recognize that there's things that we just accept and we never really question question and often they don't fit together so I mean what he's describing is is sort of it's it's part of the truth of of things and how we arrive at our conception of Bible truth now uh he talks about this use of Bible translations which he's going to talk about later in in the article I don't really think that has a lot to do with it but uh we'll discuss that when we get later on okay in mention of the popular Ministry they sometimes remind me of the high-profile basketball player who a few years back went to North Korea to negotiate the release of an American hostage while he was recognized as an exceptionally gifted pro basketball player those skills did not necessarily qualify him to be a high stakes negotiator representing the most powerful nation in the world you see this with other high-profile personalities in the sports media and business sectors who somehow come to believe that they are qualified by their success to engage in a realm in which they are actually just as highly unqualified to accomplish money and power can provide the platform but it cannot provide the wisdom experience or knowledge the point to make is that while these Ministries can do a good work in their respective fields they should not be permitted to take the place of our own personal study of the scriptures or be relied upon as our main Expositor of the scriptures so I would think his example actually doesn't fit with what he concludes it doesn't fit whatsoever because that argument that he makes in the paragraph above would usually be an example of how you get a specialist to be the one decides what is truth right so it's it's almost the opposite of what he concludes does that make sense well in this particular situation the the entire example is a good well the the entire portion of this is a good example of non seater it just does not track yeah now of course we believe so so I wouldn't even have used that example I mean what we need to recognize is that you know God speaks to each of us individually and while you know the world thinks that that theology is just for the expert right I mean that's we we run into that in adventism all the time you know we need to go to the theologians we got to decide you know what does the BR say about the 2520 right so you know which to me is is kind of irrelevant um now I'm not sure um what's the guy's name Dennis Rodman was he successful in actually getting an American hostage release I believe he was so so that would be a bad example then right and and plus he actually you know the reason why he was successful I would think is because you know the whatever his name is Kim or something is um you know a fan of Dennis Rodman correct I mean so he was actually in probably a better position than a lot of people to negotiate the release of the hostage you know if I remember correctly about that story that was a long time ago but yeah it was 2013 yeah but yeah so I'm not really sure where why he brought brought up that example and how that relates um because when it comes to the qualifications that we need for ourselves the reality is no one can do for us what we have to do for ourselves but is no one can study God's word for us now it is important to listen to others who have studied right that's part of study I mean uh you know i' I've run into people who just saywell I'm just going to study the Bible without you know anyone else and that's you know God says that we should not forsake the assembling of ourselves together right there's a point to come together um to study right where two or three are gathered together there I am in the midst and then of course we have these people and I've mentioned this before they'll say I'm only going to study on my own I'm not going to listen to any man but they're going to be preaching what they believe on the internet and that you have to listen to them right so either you believe that we no don't communicate with anyone at all and we just study the Bible for ourselves right so that's that's what you would have to believe or there is a point of you know reading uh other people's experience sharing in with other people studying together uh but there is a part that we only can do it is obviously if if we just read books and we never actually sit down and prayerfully study and work through things on our own because there is a personal walk that we have with God if we never do that we'll never come to a knowledge of the truth so I I'm not really sure I follow what he's trying to get at other than we know that you know people shouldn't take the place of our own personal study we can agree with that but it doesn't really follow from what he said he said it's a nonse right now the next step was that he then goes to quote Judges 7 veres 4-7 and the Lord said unto Gideon the people are yet too many bring them down unto the water and I will try them for thee there and it shall be that of whom I say unto thee this shall go with thee the same shall go with thee and whomsoever I say unto thee this shall not go with thee the same shall not go so he brought down the people under the water and the Lord said unto Gideon everyone that laeth of the water with his tongue as a dog laeth him shalt thou set by himself likewise everyone that boweth down upon his knees to drink and the number of them that laughed putting their hand to their mouth with 300 men but the rest of the people bowed down upon their knees to drink water and the Lord said unto Gideon by the 300 men that laeth I will say will I save you and deliver the midianites into thine hand and let all the other people go every man unto his place in the account of Gideon and his men found in Judges 7 the bible clearly details a two-step testing process the first three verses show a rather simple method that produces two classes of men the Army composed of 32,000 men are given the freedom to choose whether or not they will go out and fight realizing that they are up against an immense Force 22,000 men decide to go home and forego the fight it is interesting to note that it was God himself who decided that there were too many men in Israel's Army as he didn't want them to go out and somehow think that they were capable of defeating such a large and hostile Army on their own now they are down to 10,000 men and God still insists that there are too many men for him to work with so he directs them to another test that will reduce their numbers even more this time however God personally sets the rules of the test he orders Gideon to bring the men down to the water for the purpose of getting a drink before they engage in battle there each man drinks the majority of men kneeling down and putting their face in the water whereas if few dip their hand in the water and put it into their mouth all the time keeping their eyes open for the enemy all of these men drank out of the same water but it's how they each drink that determined whether or not they would go on to fight the battle in other words God was looking to see what method each person would use to get the water out of the stream and into their bodies the water could do them no good as long as it stayed in the Stream but it must somehow be withdrawn and be placed in their mouths and absorbed before it could be of any benefit to them why did it even matter to God how they drank just so long as they drank wasn't that good enough now the the position that he's taking here seems a bit odd first in recounting all of this he jumps to a portion of this of this passage after the 22,000 are sent home right so you have you have different groups so you have you know the first group that just really not interested any excuse that they could have they could just go so just wants people that that want to be there right okay so the 10,000 left and then you're going to have the water right drinking in in the water but but what is his point like I'm not sure H like because we've looked at this Ellen White comments on this and there isn't any sort of idea in the spirit of Prophecy like this regarding this story like he's he's going to try to apply it to methodology right right that's what he's he's gonna do so you know it's interesting to me how this is not being approached from a symbolic representation it's so much that that he seems to be looking at this literally well and trying to apply it so literally well well what he does is he you know so I've looked at his his material here he lot lots of times argues from analogy that is where there's something in the story but he things to the story that aren't really part of the story I mean obviously they drink from the water but to him it's about the water itself not really about the person's attitude because in the story it's not about the water the water is not really the issue correct right you know um where he's he's taking the water is representing this Source material which I I've never looked at the story and thought about it in that sense but you know I mean maybe maybe you could but what really here what was uh you know what she talks about like they're keeping their eyes open for the enemy there's ones that are alert and there's other ones that are are careless is the way that I would look at it so that part he puts there but he doesn't he doesn't actually draw anything from it right so he well he's saying how they drank but I don't think this to do with methodology I don't know I just well as he as he proceeds by now we should be able to see that the water is a type of the word of God the Bible right which I wouldn't have drawn from this story okay right I mean water can be you know used I guess in a sense in that way in certain situations but in this story I don't think that that's what I would draw from it so it's something I you know in our discussion we never looked at it that way but we do have you know we do have in this story Gideon's 300 so that goes back to the 300 foxes as well right which he doesn't seem to clearly make that connection it's sort of like just you know maybe acidly but because you have the 300 Mill millerite charts which he connects with the 300 boxes and here you're going to have Gideon's 300 but he know he could have started out you know drawing from what was before saying here we have this 300 in the story of of Samson you know these 300 foxes now again we have this 300 Gideon's 300 and and draw it draw through it that way and connect it and then connect it to the Chart so you could argue well the 300 men represent these truths that are on the 1843 chart right and then you could make that argument and so so it's not so much in the story it's not so much about the people it would be about the truths does that sort of make sense right right people are connected to those truths because you have the three you know middle preachers that have the charts and so forth so it is about a proclamation of a message but here he's he's addressing it you know differently again so you know he could have done that and then it wouldn't be so much about methodology or at least about the individual so about making it personal so I I don't know it's it's a little bit of a mess you know the way that he's put this together but but it's something to think about because I don't think we quite looked at it you know as the 300 you know we connected the 300 to the 300 charts to that symbol but but but I think there is a way in which we can understand that this is about the message the way that we applied it as we applied it to the message in July 18 2020 in our history but we could take this whole story and apply it to millerite history which of course is the pattern that we're basing our line upon well this next paragraph we should also realize that it is just as important to us as it was to them in this matter of how to drink or in our case of how to study with both classes of men it was essential that they have the strengthening refreshing vitalizing water before they could go on to the battle but the fact remains that one group went on to fight and the other was sent home all because of the method they each used to get a drink out of the same body of water well this is ignoring the first group now didn't we make the application that these three groups not just two but these three groups could also be representative of the first second and third Angel's message yeah yeah so in and Miller right history of course right right so so You' have this group that um because Protestants are going to be tested by the first message right right so now some some of them are going to accept the message for a while but right that is they're going to come with the call but then they're just going to be sent home because they don't really want to participate and that would be the first Angel's message so that's one way we could look at it then the this the next group is the millerites that are going to be tested and they're going to be tested upon the true on uh the 1843 charts right right so so that's the 300 and then you have those then that remain those are the ones that accept you know habac 2 tables that there was a mistake they go through the tearing time that's going to be the second Angel's message so that group is tested right so there's two tests if you look at it clear right so that's the first and second Angel's message and then it's going to be uh how would we get the third Angel's message in there because there's three groups but there's really two tests so you have the one group that comes out of that second test I guess would be the seventh day Adventists okay right is is that a way of looking at it the 300 and then of course there's the the Sunday law right that's going to be where they um battle against uh Midian okay so it's it's not so much the three gr groups are each of the Three Angels messages but they're divided by the first two messages and then it's going to be under the third Angel's message that you have the Sunday law okay but but we made an application of that to our history right so but that's just because we're parallell millerite history but we would have to understand first as applying to Miller history but the idea here that this would that the the water is a type of the word of God here so again you know he talks about Miller's rules is the water a type of the word of God I mean when we look at the water I mean we know water can represent people multitude Nations and tongues right right but when Christ applies it he applies it more to the water of Salvation right uh to the gospel itself right and youo he youo they that thirst has come to the water and drink right that that tends to be the way that water is used it's it's salvation it's this uh just like you know bread is the word of God but water is more uh Salvation itself rather than the Bible I don't know I don't know if you could you could use Miller's rules to show that the word word of God is or is typified by water you know in that direct way that he's trying to to use here obviously indirectly because water comes from I mean salvation comes from God's word does that make sense I think it makes a good point now if you are familiar with our past just before the adven church was formed you will recall that there was something different between the millerites and the rest of the churches of their day the difference was primarily in the way that they each studied the Bible it was because of the way in which our Pioneers study that we as ADV now have a firm platform of Truth to stand upon that platform of Truth was given to us as a direct result of the establishment of a method of Bible study this platform is composed of truths such as the Three Angels messages the investigative judgment the 2300 years and even controverted points such as the daily and the 2520 prophecy each prophecy or doctrine that is unique to us was arrived at by a careful study of the Bible using a specific method of study this method of study called Miller's rules did not employ the use of Greek and Hebrew or depend on historical grammatical system or a system based on higher criticism but relied instead on the principles contained in Isaiah 28 where it details the concept of line upon line precept upon precept here a little and there a little Miller's rules of interpretations are simply an expansion of these principles put into a form that we can understand and utilize they are the way that God has given us that enables us to come to a correct understanding of the truths contained in the Bible remembering that both the oil and the wheat must be put into a usable form before we can expect a good loaf of bread the oil a symbol of the Holy Spirit helps us to correctly understand through a specific method by which to grind the wheat put in a different way these rules are the way that God has chosen to let the Bible speak for itself no dead language is chained to a desk that the common people cannot understand no interpreters no commentators just 14 rules that anyone can apply now comment from the chat John 737 to39 Christ spoke of the water as being the spirit of God now from what What Glenn is covering here he's basically trying to say no dead languages chained to a desk now he wants to quote from the review and Herald November 25th of 1884 those who are engaged in proclaiming the third Angel's message or searching the scriptures upon the same plan that father Miller adopted in the little book entitled views of the prophecies and prophetic phenology father Miller gives the following simple but intelligent and important rules for Bible study and interpretation now okay go on when when you're going to give a reference like this and then not expand to show what these rules are I have to wonder why you're even using the quote to begin with well okay so so he's he talks about Miller's rules right I don't think he he he represents exactly what they are right okay now he he seems to imply that that those rules mean no commentators at all no interpretation from anyone else so what was it uh I just got to look at that so he's going to say no interpreters no commentators no dead languages chained to a desk that the common people cannot understand so I mean he's saying that we shouldn't look at the Hebrew and Greek at all well that that would be his implication but I mean I I find it sad because in this example he's actually mixing a couple of examples because at no time do I find that the Hebrew or Greek was chained to a desk I do find that a Bible yeah at that point written in Latin was chained to a desk which Latin was a dead language that nobody really understood except some educated people correct uh and it was a dead language but um now the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek obviously I find Value in looking at the original Hebrew and Greek and we have tools that can help us to do that so that we're not dependent just on trans translations now you know I mean he makes comments about all the different translations and that they create confusion which which I agree one of the things I really dislike because when I became a sth day Adventist I grew up with the revised Standard Version because you know I was in the United Church of Canada so lots of times when I I had a Bible verse that I wanted to find in my Strong's Concordance which was based on the King James I couldn't find it because I had a different word right like that I was looking up than was in the King James and then of course you know people started using the NIV and our Scholars all support the new translations uh then the new King James came out which you know it's not a good translation uh there's lots of problems with it uh but uh you know that just creates more confusion right and so then you start people seeing people using the new King James which it's it's really one of the the worst translations out of of the ones that people use nib is the worst but uh anyway just it does create confusion but in personal Bible study to use cruden's concordance was the way that Miller was able to compare the words of scripture without knowing the Hebrew and the Greek right okay right I mean he doesn't have the Hebrew and Greek but he does have a concordance correct and now he's going to then you know apply that which when you use like the tools that we have with es sword we can actually compare not just that the translation English word but we can also compare uh the Hebrew and Greek words right we don't really need to know Hebrew or Greek to at least do a search of the scriptures using a particular word right so you can look up Mara and mor and kazone if we if we didn't have uh es sword or some way of of doing that like we couldn't do that with with cruden right because you you can just look up the word Vision but you can't tell which Hebrew word it's translated from so if you're going to take that position there's lots of things that we could not study and that we couldn't draw conclusions from that we have done you know we couldn't look up sir and room in Daniel 8 and and Daniel 11 verse you know 31 and 12 verse 11 so is he arguing against doing that it would seem to be okay so anyway he's not really clear now the other thing that of course is you know Miller did study on his own right he didn't a bunch commentaries to uh you know to figure things out but he had to have an understanding of History right that is he had to have some knowledge about you know events in history not everything that he and he had to had have dates in order to deal with the prophetic period right right right to like to get 677 you're not going to get that from just studying your Bible you the Bible's no you could say well he had a Bible with Usher's dates in it but but that's in a sense a commentary right right but here's you here's one of the one of the points that I find interesting when when the comment is being made about the dead languages there are definitely specific words where in cruden concordance they give reference to both the Greek and the Hebrew okay so now it's it's kind of a problem to say that cruden did not use and did not present any Greek or Hebrew when it's in the in the concordance itself that he did oh okay yeah I do have a cruden but I haven't really used it because I got es sword you know so I um I've looked through it so is he group the words based on the the Hebrew like if you look up vision is he gonna have them grouped as you know the ones that are kazone and Mara and no vision is group grouped you've got Vision in a vision or visions plural he does not delineate between the three words yeah okay right so there are limitations that that Miller had that God still used but when we look at Miller's rules it really isn't about um what he's saying here no interpreters no commentators right I mean Miller is is is laying down how that we understand how we understand the Bible how we compare scripture with scripture uh because his approach was to understand what he was reading he started at the beginning and then when he didn't understand he would find other places in the scripture that would help explain what he was reading right right and then he came to understand it that there were things that were symbolic um that we understand the Bible as literally really a story of a narrative that's true that it's not just some myth and that there are things that are to be understood as symbols but it's going to be clear that they're symbols because they can't exist as real right you know the Beast with seven heads and 10 horns um you know we're going to understand those things to be symbols lots of things that we're going to see throughout the scriptures that are symbols that are stories Parables and so forth he's also going to understand to some degree T typology now we do have an expansion of Miller's rules that that actually come from the use of Miller's rules right that is there's there's Miller's 14 rules but we we've applied the symbolic use of numbers correct and and that's not an addition to Miller's rules it's actually addressing the idea of symbols that numbers are symbolic and then we we so we can expand that or delineate it or detail it that you know every word of scripture has its bearing right that's another rule of Millers so some people would um you know criticize how we study that is they would say well you know you're looking at strongs numbers you're looking at dates as symbols you know that's all numerology but the the way that we approach it is that the plain reading of scripture is never contradicted by any of these other rules right that is if we find something's a symbol we can't just apply it willy-nilly it has to be in accordance with the plain reading of scripture and of Prophecy and you know so when we when we apply the numbers it's often as you know a secondary or a tertiary or quinary uh line of evidence it's not the main argument that we're making and it never contradicts what we read in the scriptures in a plain way right that's right that's basically so so he hasn't really presented Miller's rules and in a sense he's he's presented a distortion of Miller's rules no interpreters no commentators so if because if because other people can study the Bible and if we're saying that well we can never listen to what anyone else says about the Bible right like because in sense we're commentators just like you know the commentators who write commentaries we're interpreters right because we go through and we study and we interpret the scriptures and we share now you have the opportunity to examine and study with us right and and I use commentaries because often the commentaries will help connect some of the different scriptures together right they will they'll give some information and they'll say well you know this verse here it relates to this other verse so I I don't have a problem with commentaries except when people depend upon a commentary as their main source and usually a conclusion or an opinion in a commentary as well it must be evidently true because this commentator says this is the case as URI Smith does all the time right like I can look at a commentator but I can't take him as an authority like I can't take his interpretation over what the scriptures say okay it throws me why to give a reference to something and then not show what the reference is and explain what you're what you're dealing with so and and and misrepresenting it really right now he continues in in a totally different path the many different methods of study along with the numerous versions of the Bible bring confusion to the truth rather than Clarity all of the modern versions of the Bible came into existence after 1850 and most if not all were produced by the Protestant denominations and Publishing houses while we should never be unkind in our critique we must always remember that these institutions are numbered with those that fell when the door was shut to them in 1844 they experienced a moral fall and have continued falling lower and lower great controversy 3892 their methods and versions will not produce a movement to call us out of Babylon rather it was and will be the other way around now it intrigues me because his comment about all of the modern versions of the Bible coming to existence after 1850 I believe it was in 1826 that the British and American foreign Bible Society made the decision to remove the Apocrypha from any of their Bibles I am aware for a fact that the Bible that my friend is using does not have any of the Apocrypha in it now all of these situations including those where people have a Bible published with Ellen White study guides would be an example of what he's trying to say here about a a group publishing a Bible that has experienced a moral fall should this also be something for our consideration okay well so I mean to say all modern versions of the Bible came into existence in modern times it's kind of it it doesn't really mean anything now of course the idea is that well that's after there was a fall now we have lots of trans translations that existed uh before the King James and translation translations that occurred after the King James right Protestant and Catholic translations but yeah they're definitely after the the discovery of U you know the caticus and the vaticanus and the alexandrian manuscripts um which then uh we had uh westcot and Hort you know working with the revision of the the text of scripture um and there are theories that led to uh some of the Monstrous mistakes that we see in these modern translations now U just think about aversion do you know the difference what a version is compared to just a regular translation does anybody know because we just kind of use that word version right like we have the King James version we have the revised Standard Version these are versions um now the NIV is actually should not be called aversion and why is that isn't that more of a paraphrase yeah it's a paraphrase right so so how they managed to get it to be called The New International Version when it's it's a paraphrase it's a different type of translation so versions are meant to be more literal in their translation that is you should with a version you should be able to translate it back into the original Hebrew or Greek uh but with the paraphrase you know it's it's not so direct and so when you have like the Latin Vulgate that's a version right or the septu aent that's a version or the King James that's a version but um so a lot of the translations don't use that term version as part of their title right you know the American Standard Version that would be a version but you know something like the Bible in basic English that's not going to be a version you know or the Good News Bible would not be a version it would be a paraphrase right yeah so so there are different types of translations that can be um used in study just like you would use the King James where you could have a concordance and you could compare the words of scripture with each other but the King James is the best one to do that right so I mean I wouldn't use any other translation as a personal uh Study Bible a lot of people make a big deal about like the American uh what is it uh New American Standard Version New American Standard which you know people say this is such a great translation and it I don't find it to be a very good translation but you know I've spent a lot of times I collected a lot of Bibles and did a lot of research on Bible translations uh through the years I would say actually uh the English Standard Version is is a better translation than the new American Standard Version but anyway I I was a bit surprised when I looked up the the different Bibles that are drawn primarily from the texus receptus so yeah and that's gonna that's going to affect the New Testament right not really going to affect the Old Testament uh but there are translations that depend a lot on the subagent as far as interpreting the Hebrew and and you know NIV would be one of them so you know obviously we should use the King James but I do think we need to use Strong's Concordance and the dictionaries and uh you know the best is to have e sword you have different translations that you can compare but but this is a way of of looking at at the actual language even if you don't know how to speak Hebrew or Greek or read Hebrew or Greek but yeah sometimes people can come to quite wrong conclusions when they look at the Hebrew or Greek as well so so anyway you know I don't think we should depend upon you know TR other translations so I would agree with him in that sense okay it's just it's I mean it's obviously an interest of mine Bible translations okay in considering this it is highly interesting to understand just how the midianites and the amalekites were destroyed so we're segueing to another subject alog together that he's attempting to make use of as an example the Bible tells us that the Lord set Every Man's sword against his fellow as with the water John 41-15 so the sword also represents the word of God Ephesians 6:17 it is these two precise things the Protestant methods of study the historical grammatical and the Hier critical reasoning coupled with the different versions of the Bible which led to their original and continued rejection of the Three Angels messages as a result they have many conflicting swords of interpretation in the various denominations that will be responsible for the loss of many Souls the point to make make is that somehow we as Adventists think that we can incorporate these into our study of Daniel 11 or any prophecy for that matter and somehow escape from the sure results the situation that was occurring in 1844 the majority of those that were studying Protestant Adventist millerite whatever were all using the King James version unless you were catholic and then you were using the DU rings so I'm having a I I'm having a bit of an issue with the way this paragraph is presented okay so one is he he gives us this reference now where water represents the word of God John 4 ver 1-15 which I don't get from that uh passage dealing with the woman at the well in Samaria the Samaritan woman at the well because what Jesus is offering her is is salvation through him right right it's it's it's he's not using the water there to represent the scriptures at least I've never read it that way now we do know a sword represents the word of God so that's pretty clear now then he's going to mention the historical grammatical and Hier critical uh method so there's the historical grammatical method which is what our Scholars say they're using and then there's the critical grammatic or historical critical method I think it's called um that uh is what many scholars use so Adventists have have adopted this name historical grammatical method and and these are obviously not Miller's rules so part of the historical grammatical method is that we should understand the the scriptures the way that people understood them who were contemporary with their writing and that we generally just take the scriptures more as uh devotional beyond that right so which is not a method that Miller used right and uh you see this with this guy what's his name um Pippen that you say it Samuel Pippen he wrote a book on interpreting the scriptures on hermeneutics right which is as far as I'm concerned a mockery of how to study the Bible it's if we're going to study with that method we're not going to learn anything the Bible just becomes devotional and and and the doctrines actually come from the church right so so like the Catholics basically chained the scripture initially but they weaken the scriptures by making one is the church The Interpreter of the scriptures but with it within adventism we have the same thing we have the doctrines of the church that can't be controverted right you can't disagree with what the church Church's doctrines are you can't use the Bible to test those doctrines because they've been established by the church you can only study the Bible uh devotionally and if you're going to you know read the stories of let's say judges you could learn lessons moral lessons from the stories of Judges but you definitely couldn't apply it as you know that it was written as in in samples or types of the present right you you can't as an Adventist read the Book of Judges and make a parallel to the history that we're living in right now right correct yeah so so there are things that we do in how we study that are basically foren right so we can't we can't use the symbolic use of numbers we can't we can't apply history as in typology even though Ellen White does it all the time and um you know we can't we can't have any sort of hidden meaning in the scriptures right so we can't we can't apply we can't really use the scriptures other than devotional material and that that's what the historical grammatical method does to the scriptures the historical critical method just deals with the scriptures as if they're uh myth right so so obviously we're not going to use those methods of Bible study correct now Gideon and his men came against the medit with a trumpet in their right hand and lamps in their left hands in other words through the lens of the type the millerites came with a correct interpretation of Bible prophecy that was arrived at by the correct method of study utilizing the correct version King James version of the Bible thus giving the trumpet a certain sound the vessels were broken allowing the lamps the Bible to shine without human speculation and the quote here is of all the great religious movements since the days of the Apostles none have been more free from Human imperfection and the Ws of Satan than that of the Autumn of 1844 great controversy 41.3 Christ always demonstrates the end from the beginning and it will yet be seen in the study of Daniel 11:31 to4 that if we employ the same principles in our study we will also arrive at at the correct conclusion though those who do this must also contend with the popular misconceptions and longstanding errors held in our church now in the first article he made it very clear that he was not here to be critical or critize yet in this statement he's commenting about contending with popular misconceptions and long-standing errors is that not critic well maybe he's not criticizing individuals per se but okay I mean obviously there is there needs to be criticism right I mean as far as errors because you know if if he's not correcting any errors then there's no almost you know that that that's I mean that's the purpose of his his study is to show you know how we should correctly study and uh but I don't think he's doing a good job of showing how we should correctly study right but even if he even if he himself is correctly studying he he's not demonstrating how to do that okay so um okay so there was here um so when we looked at this story of of the trumpets and the lamps right so we know that this is a specific message if we're applying this to millerite history we know that that that trumpet is the messages of the first second first and second Angels messages right right and we would place this story if we're going to if we're going to take the story of Gideon and we put it into to millerite history we would then have to say that well Gideon is actually going Beyond millerite history because the third Angels message arrives on October 22nd 1844 but the trumpet must refer to the proclamation of of the Sabbath and and the truths after 1844 right because if we're saying the first Angel's messages and the second Angel's messages are those messages that cause that division to then we finally have the Seventh Day Adventist Church that is supposed to be giving that message which is the Sunday law right we would understand that that message is the Sunday law right about the mark of the beast and so forth the third Angel's message okay even if we appli this to the millerite history it you can't put this as the second Angel's message in millerite history right because you can see how he's taking the story he's just saying it applies to the millerites right but we would have to say it applies to Seventh Day Adventists agreed yeah okay and so now we we know the vessels being broken what ises what does that represent isn't that more Shining Light well we have this treasure in Earth and vessels right so this would be C Christ's character perfectly reproduced in his people that is we would have people who they are broken right okay like they self is not in the way of giving letting this light shine so this has to do with more Perfection of character right so he doesn't really address what the vessels being broken represents he just says the vessels were broken allowing the lamps which I mean God's word is a lamp right so we we can definitely say well that's the scriptures to shine without human speculation so you could say well the breaking of those vessels is the breaking of human spe speculation or something but we would see it as as as a conversion process you have a convert converted people proclaiming the truths of scripture with a trumpet which is that message in the last days dealing with the third Angel's message so to take this quote from great controversy and apply it to the story of Gideon we don't put the story of Gideon in millerite history in that way no yeah okay as we have seen Gideon's men all drank out of the same water but it was how they drank that counted considering the context of these articles it is interesting to note that it was the class of men who drank deeply of the water who were sent home these represent those who are stuck in the endless minutia of the process itself okay comment well is that really what was that they drank deeply of the water who were sent home no no I mean they they put their mouths down to the water but that's not really the issue of how much water they drank right this is this is leaping to a conclusion yeah stuck in the endless minutia of the process itself so I mean so obviously I don't think we're we study minutia okay that is the details are important of script in scripture right we we we handle the word of God carefully that is we we when you're studying the Bible you don't just simply you know read read on the surface and and draw conclusions you have to compare scripture with scripture it it's diligent Bible study now so I'm not sure what he means by stuck in the endless minutia I mean we definitely aren't going to argue you know how many angels can dance on the head of a pin type of thing but the minutia of the process itself I'm not sure what that even means is is that really the problem that people are stuck in the minutia I I think it's actually quite the opposite problem is that people are not really studying they're not looking they're allowing too many others to tell them what the Bible says rather than searching it for themselves now this next paragraph is interesting too so in other words they drank so deeply of the actual methodologies themselves that they the methodologies are no longer able to produce truth that is either useful or instructive they have become bloated as the process has become the end rather than a means to an end yeah so I wonder what so do do you know what he's really referring to what he's what he's digging at here because no I really don't okay because is he accusing something within the church because I don't see that in the church I mean if he was giving a a criticism of us then then I could see you know know that that he could be aiming at People Like Us who who spend so much time studying and and are involved in this process but I don't think that you could say that the way that we're studying uh makes somebody bloated no what what makes somebody bloated gas over over overeating and drinking eating with water yeah overeating taking in uh things that you you can't process right so when we study um you know sometimes maybe we do overeat a little bit we take on more than we can process digest but but the idea that we we're going through here is that we study God's word and we receive a conviction and and we act on those convictions right you know so we're not just mindly mind mindlessly stuffing ourselves with knowledge we're trying to apply that knowledge right so that means if if you take in nutriment you need to exercise you need to actually burn those calories right you know related to uh you know if I go backpacking I can eat you know 4,000 calories a day uh but I definitely can't eat 4,000 calories a day if I'm sitting on on the couch watching television all day long right I will become bloated so I'm not really sure you know the way he thinks about this it's just seems kind of a a bit of a mishmash of of ideas but you know I don't think he's wrong in his in his intent at least I haven't seen that so far but I don't know if people what's that Angela oh sorry I hate butting in it's so hard in on Zoom it says Matthew 24:38 reminds us as in the days of Noah Before the Flood they were eating and drinking well it's not only devouring too much food as in gluttony but in absorbing or speculating about all kinds of junk that's floating around these days which can make us spiritually and mentally loaded yeah cuz we're supposed to separate the precious from the vile right that is we have to rightly divide the word of Truth we have to understand the scriptures we have to put them into practice like when I look at Miller's you know last rule which I think is is is a very broad rule like there it it it involves lots of things that we must have faith which is more than just trusting God's word in like in an intellectual way but it's actually acting on God's word that that is it includes the conviction that we get from studying God's word and and everything that we would we would put into what is involved in in the Christian Life right so if you're studying the scriptures and it's just an intellectual exercise then it's not going to benefit you at all um which I think is what I would say you know people who are just like studying but they're not they're not putting it into practice that's maybe what he could be aiming at or at least trying to address here but I don't know anybody who just is deeply involved in the actual methodologies themselves and right I don't really think it's about methodology right that is in in in how like a person can study the Bible if he goes to God and says Lord I want to understand the scriptures please guide and direct me in understanding the Bible he doesn't really need to know methodology right in order to come to understand the truth correct yes I think so because God can direct him I mean when I was you know 14 years old and I'm reading the book of Revelation and I pray to God God it says that blessed is he that reads these words and understands those things and keeps those things you know for the time is at hand I could pray to God as a 14-year-old who doesn't really understand much about methodology or anything I mean I'd read lots of the Bible and I'd read commentaries and so forth but God could direct me and and he directed me in different ways right one is in in my personal experience of things that happened to me in my life um but also he directed me to the Seventh Day Adventist Church right so I ended up becoming a Seventh Day Adventist you know like uh five years later right so it's lots of things that happen in my life so God can answer those prayers now a person could have complete understanding of you know methodologies they may even profess to believe Miller's rules but if they're not really seeking God if they're not wanting to address the sins in their own lives and that it doesn't really matter what methodology they use right they're not going to come to an understanding of the truth right if they're not going to obey God if they're not going to receive a conviction as they study God's word it's not going to benefit them and and even if people know the correct methodologies often they don't they don't practice what they what they know right because we're Sinners right we we use we use the Bible as a way of avoiding dealing with who we are and uh so you know I I think we can just make too much about methodology it's uh it's not the be all and end all in understanding truth no it's not no if the scripture doesn't jump off the page into our into our own experience for the day then it's not the Living Word like yesterday I just quick prayer and open the Bible and some you know sometimes I do that and jumped off the page about a fiery trial the fire uh a sacrifice offered by fire and boy I'll tell you it was a good day it was a fiery day it was a trial day but it was a sacrifice offered to God a sweet Savor yeah and so and so we can approach the scriptures a different ways in different times like there are times that we're we're studying you know very intellectually like I'm going through and I'm studying like the chronology of the kings of Judah right and uh there isn't a lot of things in doing that study directly that are speaking to me at that moment about my personal day-to-day life right understand you know like yeah yeah I do you know but it doesn't mean that that's a waste of my time either because the conviction that comes is I study God's word and I put the scriptures together and I get a a better picture you know one of the things that happened to me one time when I was studying like the whole story of uh well the chronology of the Babylonian captivity and the end of it and so forth and I'd spent so much time in studying it that I became very familiar with the people in scriptures and their experiences and I was reading um to Heidi from uh I think it was prophets and Kings um and you know as I was reading I became very emotional because For the First Time in reading that story because I'd read prophets and Kings many times but I'd always kind of read over it that is I didn't understand you know who these people were and what happened and now it just meant something to me right you know so so both parts are necessary that that personal deep study of of the details of scripture struggling over difficult passages that may not in and of themselves just you know be the message for the day but but there are times that we just open the scriptures and if we just limited it to you know I'm just going to open the scriptures and read read a a chapter each day and that's going to be my Bible study those those scriptures may not speak as much to you if if you um than if you had done all of the other type of study as well right so you need both this other one you're both you're referring to is storing the truths of scripture in our in our minds and then the Holy Spirit at the appropriate time or the right time the opportune time brings them to mind and they're applied in our experience and that's that's when we can have the Weeping of joy that God is speaking to us through through his word okay thanks K okay Dwight you got this last little bit of this conclusion to finish off right Jacob helps us to see the same thing put in a different way Jacob's sheep drank out of the same watering Troth just as Gideon's men all drank out of the same water but this time something is added when a certain glass of sheep drink of the water this is the subject for part six so I'm baffled because I don't really see this being as fully presented as it could be and now we're segueing into a different situation altogether where Jacob's sheep are now going to be compared with Gideon's men just because of the use of the water yeah which which I don't think I would do but this is his part six study on Jacob sheet so right so we'll get to Part 6 then on Sunday any other thought or comment or question at this point okay shall we then close with prayer gracious Father in heaven we thank you for the various examples that are contained within scripture we thank you Father for helping us to address things to consider things and to learn more about what you would have us to understand we ask for your blessing today we ask for your guidance and your direction so that all that we do may bring bring glory to your name help us to this end for we need you in all things for this we ask and pray in Jesus name amen