MHSAA Executive Director Mark Uyl talks about Fall Sports, Football Playoffs and more

back to another episode of the Casey Campbell podcast Casey Campbell with you of course and pleased to be joined by the mhsa executive director of course that is Mark Ewell how's it going mark good Casey good to be with you well first off congrats on a great fall Sports season and uh as winter sports uh get ready to go and obviously it was a very busy fall Sports season for you um let's address the elephant in the room why don't we obviously um you guys uh you guys just to con uh a few weeks ago you just conducted the uh finished up the undo investigation into Belleville I kind of explain what happened in there for many people that don't know and just go from there so I think I'll take it from maybe a little bit broader perspective so what your listeners need to understand is that every summer schools voluntarily join the mhsaa for that school year so their Boards of Education have to approve a resolution in schools join the mhsaa and the way then that that Arrangement works is that schools adopt the mhsaa handbook which again it's not like the NCAA book of thousands and thousands of pages there are five regulations in our book the first two deal with high schools the next two deal with Junior High middle school and then the fifth regulation defines the penalties but schools every year adopt those rules as their own and the way that it works and when you follow all the rules then you get to participate in our postseason tournaments and you know everybody gets access to all the things that the association offers one of our rules in the first regulation is undue influence it's re it's an anti-recruiting rule but schools are able to do what they can to attract students in general but you can't go out and try and recruit or attract students based primarily on Athletics and we get lots of allegations of this we ignore nothing um so actually undue influence investigations are somewhat common but of course when you do find that a violation occurred um the school to this point has chosen not to appeal any of the findings in our investigation and so we're at this point moving forward with the penalties as they're set up in the handbook but that's kind of how the general Arrangement works that schools join schools agree to follow the rules and when schools don't follow the rules they have to understand that the penalties that are in the handbook are going to be applied and and I think that's kind of the short story of uh what happened here yeah so going into this I know that you know there was also talks of I mean this is not the first time that you guys have dealt with this and you know over the years and and you told Nick McCabe this in in the Free Press um you want to change the reputation saying that you know every you turn a blind eye toward everything and all that stuff I mean what what do you what if since you've taken over this job what's been the biggest thing that you've noticed with that since you took over well I think I I disagree a little bit with that reputation um our school people that uh know of the violations that we process all the time um the schools that have turned in things that have led to that um I don't think they characterize it as is uh things don't happen as I I said to the previous question we ignored nothing um we don't go running to the to the media every time we have a violation um we you know I think part of uh being a professional is when one of your member schools does violate the rules yeah you need to give them a penalty and you need to address it but I don't think that public shaming should also come with that and if you know some people disagree with that so be it um you know the thing that I guess at my core and really what a good part of my background has been is as an official and when you grow up as an official you realize that you know what when somebody slides illegally at second base that's interference and what the rulebook says is when you have interference it's an automatic double play and you call it in our handbook when it says that you have a violation of undue influence it says that the adult involved has a minimum penalty of of at least fill in the blank years based on the number of violations and the severity so when that happens you call it um you know when you've got a transfer situation and you don't have a full and complete move it says that the kid is not eligible same thing you need to step up and you need to make that call you don't by the way that illegal slide at second base doesn't matter if it's the best player on the team the worst player on the team a kid who might get drafted a kid who might not get drafted it really doesn't matter and that's something where you know every one of these that reaches my desk you try and handle them consistently you try and handle them by the rules and you try and do it in the most uh Fairway to everybody involved for sure all right let's talk about more about football the um the ever-changing football playoffs they're going to stay are is there okay is there something with that are we gonna see change with that are we gonna go to the um the everybody's in format or or are we going to kind of stay the same or is that still kind of up in the air of what we were what we're going to do here in Michigan I think this was my 30th season where I have been involved with high school football either as a coach administrator or staff member here at the mhsa what I can tell you Casey is that over every one of my 30 years in this business there have been talk about football in general whether it be about the playoffs but really more of what really comes up more is regular season scheduling and the challenges that schools have to find games we just completed our second year using the strength of schedule formula where schools qualify to get into the playoffs um you know you you do a poll or you take a survey and you do get mixed messages of some would like everybody in some like exactly what we're doing so we actually had a good conversation with our board last week Friday we did take some data again from our football Community let them know that we'll continue the conversation but I think the the biggest thing that came out of our meeting last week is for the up all of 23 you should anticipate no change the survey data that we're getting back yeah you've got some different views but there's by no means an overwhelming consensus that will a change to this system or that system is going to make all of our regular season scheduling issues go away the reality is this by the time you get to either the second or third round of the football playoffs it's the best teams that are left playing and really what you're tweaking and changing are maybe that dozen to two dozen teams that are just barely getting into the playoffs and are maybe around for that first round or so um but it so you talk about the the playoffs are the issue I would disagree that by the time you hit week two or week three everybody that should be playing at that point is in and it really doesn't matter how you got there um I think the the issues that need to continue to be addressed are okay the bubble teams because under the old system the bubble teams that got in were ones that found six wins somehow now the bubble teams that get in are the ones that maybe have less than six wins but they've played a tougher schedule so the question is well the the 20 uh six win teams that got in are they better than the four or five teams that got in but played a tougher schedule so that's really the group you're debating and then I think the bigger conversation is well how then did the bubble teams that are getting in how is that affecting regular season scheduling because because you ask ads the issue in the playoffs the issue is the playoff qualification and how it's affecting who I can find during the regular season to play us so stay tuned but again it's it's important that uh I don't see any change uh happening at least um for at least another year that next fall is going to look like it did this past fall um turning to basketball now I know a lot of people have been speaking of age-old questions is the shot clock coming to high school basketball so the national Federation or the organization that writes the national playing rules for all states have given States an option of uh wanting to use the shot clock and so I think Nationwide there are well I can tell you in Big Ten country there are two states that have adopted it um Iowa and Minnesota are the two states that are using the shot clock um many of the rest of us are not um you know we went from 20 regular season games last year to 22 when you asked the basketball Community what is your your top priority for something to get addressed and changed it was the number of games so we'll continue to to get data on that um you know certainly uh there are some pretty strong opinions on the shot clock um you know we are not seeing uh dozens of games where a team is holding the ball for an entire quarter and not taking a shot and the team is winning eight to four um if we do have an eight to Four game it's not because they're holding the ball um an eight to Four game is we're just having a hard time scoring or a very low scoring game um so part of it is you know if if you know we had a state championship game or a game in our tournament where a team is taking on a top rated team and that's going to be the strategy and we're like I said gonna try and win you know 12 to 10. the reality is we're just not seeing that but we'll continue to listen we'll continue to take data but um you know especially from you know coaches uh I think are a little more in support of it when you talk about athletic directors there is not much support um and that's based on the the survey data that we're getting okay um you talk about I know basketball kind of got the of course you know the biggest change this year those two extra regular season games which means the season kind of got more condensed at the start of the Season how do you think that's going from the from the 80s and coaches that you that uh that you that you guys talked to so coach uh really our basketball Community wanted two things they wanted more games but they were not interested in the in the season length in terms of of weeks on the calendar being any longer so actually we went from 20 to 22 games and we actually delayed practice by one week because there are many times that uh you know a basketball team is only playing once during the week and I think what our coaches wanted was you know give us two more games and you know what we'll make this thing work in a little tighter window the other thing that changed Casey is under our old schedule last year a team had to practice for three weeks before you could play your first game and what we've now done is we've reduced that to two so with athletic directors and scheduling your games starting this year are at the same corresponding dates as they were a year ago the only difference was there were two weeks of practice leading to that first game this year where last year there were three weeks and I think that's been a really good change what we heard from coaches is they like the fact that hey week one it's tryouts and it's just with my squad during that second week we're now going out and we're scrimmaging once or twice and now once we hit week three uh we're ready to play and I think that that has been Casey a really good change so far yeah um let's talk about uh participation has gone up in in High School athletics since uh since the pandemic and really um that that has to that has to please you guys so often it is I think it's it's finally the you know we're kind of back to really a place where where we can talk about a post-covered world um you know one of my favorite quotes is the comeback is always better than the setback and surely during the pandemic we had lots of kids choose not to play um I think your your die hards were still playing you know for example in wrestling you know if I'm a wrestler and I've been wrestling since I've been four or five years old you know what I'm always gonna wrestle but I do think that during covet a kid who maybe was a football kid that you know what I'll give wrestling a try that during the pandemic um you know kind of those kids who are maybe a little bit more on the fence chose not to play they maybe only played their one sport rather than multiple Sports and thankfully um I think we're seeing things come back to the way they were really uh pre-covered which is great yeah um talk about officials for a second where are we at in that it's a never-ending battle um we continue to recruit we continue to try and uh train our folks as best we can and we hope that when you recruit them and you train them and you put them in a position to be successful it becomes easier to keep them or to retain them so that is a every single day task here in the building um we're continuing to try and encourage all folks not just Young Folks but those that are young at heart that uh there's Help Wanted just whistle and if you're interested mhsaa.com click on the officials button and we'd love to have you join our team is it the um talk about are we up are we are we down what are we for so far this year you know we're really remaining pretty consistent I do think that that just like participation levels of our kids that we are seeing a little bit of a post-covet comeback you know a lot of officials if you had an underlying health condition or your age that you know at the height of covid when we were playing I could see some folks opting out for a year or two or saying you know what I'm gonna you know I'm gonna wait and kind of see what the landscape looks like and I think we are getting some of those folks back and the other thing is if you watched our football championships at Valley Sports I think almost every commercial break um you saw one of our ads about officiating to get involved that we need you now more than ever and and so I really think those two things coming together are are helping our efforts um also I know hockey made some changes this year with uh with um with kind of the how the divisions kind of were kind of explain that for a minute so hockey is is probably one of the most unique Sports we have Casey in terms of of what we call Cooperative agreements a co-op program is where two or more schools come together and basically students that go to those two or three or four schools can play on one combined team well ice hockey Far and Away has the most number of Cooperative teams we have just as many Co-op hockey teams is we do stand-alone teams so for example Novi High School they have their own hockey team but you go down the the road to um you know you come up 96 just a little ways and you've got schools like Fowlerville Williamston Lansing Catholic DeWitt well they're all part of a Cooperative team now with a co-op if there's four schools in the co-op you take the enrollments of those four schools you add them together and that determines what division they're in so what we had was division one hockey was almost all co-ops and because of it um the level of play wasn't really very good at the very top of division one like Detroit Catholic Central Brighton excellent hockey but it doesn't take much in division one where and by the way Co-op teams are not forming to become super successful teams right Co-op teams were formed so that programs could exist and kids could play so what we've done is we've now taken all of our Co-op teams so any any combination of schools involved in the co-op we've now taken that list in the top third or V1 next third are D2 bottom third is D3 and then we've taken all of our Standalone teams and done the exact same thing so in division one half the schools are going to be co-ops half the schools are going to be Standalone teams and those are going to be the biggest co-ops and standalones D1 same thing in the middle group um the the kind of that middle tier of co-ops middle tier of standalones based enrollment they're going to be part of division two and then obviously those at the bottom are division three our hockey Community is really excited because what I think in if you would ask a hockey purist other again than those very top teams in division one people would tell you the best hockey was in division two and division three because our top programs really are our standalones and we think this is just going to provide a more uh I can't say Level Playing Field but maybe the ice surface is now a little more level amongst all three divisions and uh like I said our our coaches and skaters are excited about what this will look like later this winter so of course for many people that don't know um you know you have Brighton in Detroit Catholic Central also Heartland is in division one after being in division two Howell of course remains in division one you have Livonia Stevenson that also moved up to division one so and obviously the Saginaw Heritage who was in division one I think moves down to division two so that was obviously resolved of changes so far um every year Casey talk about division one hockey well who are the teams that are going to have a chance to win it in division one well probably two schools came came off your lips you then asked that question well how many schools have a shot to win it in division two and you could probably list a dozen different schools um so that was part of again uh kind of leveling the co-ops and the standalones and last thing I know entering in the winter and spring Sports season any big changes that in Spring sports that that there will be this year you know really no and part of that was again over the last two years that so much of it has been just trying to to hang in there and to stabilize things as we really got entirely through the pandemic and you know we've really had a very normal feeling fall hoping that will be the same for the winter and yet if we can do that in the spring Casey then we can really kind of get back to our normal decision making process and now if there are changes and tweaks um we're now in a much better position to do that it's it feels good because we're now back to driving decisions that you know were we were wanting to do what the membership wants us to do we're membership driven right now it feels like again rather than being driven by the governor's office or the State Health Department which you know just I mean it is what it is that's the way it was during covid and um you know we we tried to work with everybody as best we can so feels good to be membership driven again that's for sure speaking of the governor's office I know that you guys have been in talks with them again about something else I I'd be reminisced if I didn't ask you about this um Public Act 184 you came out with um um with something on that you're you're just to kind of it's been a topic of conversation explain what it is and what the what the problem is before last July the retirement rules for public Educators were what we call the 30 and 30 rule so I've been a 30-year classroom teacher I decide that you know what in June I want to retire as a teacher however I'm really not sure exactly what I want to do next and you know what I've been the girls basketball coach at my school for the last 22 Seasons I want to retire from the classroom but I want to coach for another year or two as I kind of transition out gives me something to do I'm still connected with kids but yet I'm not in the classroom every day under the old system I would retire at the end of June I had to for then the 30 and 30 for the next 30 days there had to be a separation from my district so during the month of July I had no summer contact with my school district so 30 days break after those 30 days I could now come back and coach or substitute teach or be a substitute bus driver or be a a person that helped out the cafeteria two days a week or volunteered to do the score book at home games or be the PA announcer of any of those things when I would then come back I could do that as long as I wasn't making more than 30 percent of what my salary was on the day I retired so if I was a classroom teacher making I'll just use a round number if after 30 years of teaching I was making seventy thousand dollars as a teacher after my 30-day separation and I wanted to come back and keep being the girls basketball coach making 3 500 for the season I could do that because that obviously was far less than 30 percent of my seventy thousand so are we good so far Casey on what the old system was the 30 and 30. well with the new system what they passed this last July and by the way there was no phase-in period it was immediate and it said that anyone who now retires effective immediately instead of a 30-day separation it now had to be nine months nine months and the reason that office of Retirement Services argued was well you know under the old 30 for 30 um there was too much double dipping going on and I would say double dipping I I doubt that in at least in my world double dipping is not someone collecting their pension and then also making thirty five hundred dollars is a winter girls basketball coach where you're literally making pennies on the hour I don't think that's double dipping but apparently office of Retirement Services did so by them now creating this nine month period what you're now doing is taking our very best people who have just retired but still wanted to stay involved on a limited basis and now those folks are unavailable for nine months Casey you ask schools right now what their biggest challenge is it's not money the biggest challenge right now is finding people it's people that coach it's people that substitute teach it's people that drive bus and during a time where people are at a critical shortage for our state government leaders to decide Now's the Time to to take a pool of the most qualified people and say instead of waiting for 30 days you've now got to wait um for 270 days I just believe is absolute Insanity so with the new legislative session that will begin after the first of the year uh we are working as we speak to get a bill sponsor on board to get an amendment um and a a really an amendment law written that we can get moved forward and hopefully we can get this addressed here moving forward so stay tuned all right sounds good Mark Ewell it's always good to talk with you uh best of luck congrats on a fall Sports season best of luck the rest of the year thanks Casey