[Applause] [Music] [Applause] hi I'm yit Levy of Channel 12 in Tel Aviv and I'm Jonathan fredland of the Guardian here in London and we are Unholy from keset podcasts to Jews on the news big guest on the Pod today Jonathan it's going to be three ju's isn't it three exactly let's admit it's the way we like that that we have uh David axod only the best for you uh who you know is not only one of the sharpest political Minds uh in the world but also a host of two podcasts that we both love so we're going to talk uh with him later uh in the program today a lot to talk about it is so much to talk about I mean even before we get to you know the Obama Whisperer himself just the the date on the calendar that is looming one year on to the day on March 23rd since Britain went into down but even more importantly some may argue it's a big news day for you yit in indeed uh countdown 4 days to Israel's fourth election Tuesday night 10 p.m. local the games begin that's where our exit poll uh is uh published all israels are going to be glued to the screens that's going to be 3 p.m. Eastern Standard Time and 8:00 P.M UK and I'm mentioning this Jonathan because I fully expect to to watch Us online I checked there is no Arsenal match that night so you will be able to watch uh I I would just say that re you know um Arsenal's been losing like the Israeli left can I make an Arsenal joke are we at that level of our friend yeah but you're on this one you're wrong I mean I don't know anything about it and the Ali the Israeli left should only do as well as Arsenal football but I am writing comparing the blue and white party to Liverpool this past year that is right yes that would be that's a great comparison because the big winner that suddenly falls back in dramatic fashion although they and fact perfectly in sync because some signs of life just in in these last stages from both from both unfancied teams so yeah I think there's a lot of mileage in this we could go quite far with this with some of the please don't ask me to do the rugby meets politics metaphors that's I'm stuck in that that's it I won't do that I'm just trying to think of who would be the sporting equivalent of some of the ultra Orthodox parties that would be that would be quite challenging but no look it's a it's going to be massive and I agree the entire Israeli Nation will have their eyes on youon as they watch that exit poll um but you how do you get your updates by the way that makes me that makes me curious or you just wait a few weeks and realize that n is still prime minister yeah I mean we tend to sort of think my my approach to these elections is really to go into a winter style hibernation wake me up in in in six weeks time and I will presume as I've always said that the forever prime minister will still be prime minister that tends to be how I approach it but no I know election night is just obviously a massive broadcast event in any uh country huge for you we've talked about your endurance skills going through 11 hours on the night but um but TV I mean it's not just news though is it no I mean it's a it's a t event I was just thinking about it that in Israel what we do is we have like two large chunks of the night of a broadcast election of an election night are dedicated for satire our satire program comes in erit nerit and they do the skits live uh meaning just think how talented they have to be to write this and present it live as it happens and I was just thinking is there any other country in the world where reality turns into satire as it's happening right I mean can you imagine election night in America right NBC cuts from Lester Halton Savannah GTH 32 to what SNL to Saturday Night Live in the middle of an election night broadcast it's so Israeli and it's also a little bit I think it's quintessentially Jewish right I mean you have no control over events so let's just make fun of it so our election night is sort of a lot of news obviously and also Sati embedded into that I mean in this country they did try um spitting image you know the show with the puppets and they did that I seem to remember for one election where they uh but it wasn't you know live instant reaction in real time I think the closest is probably the John Stewart indecision 2000 or indecision 2008 I think they did Comedy Central did did an election I broadcast for the first time but that was on cable and it didn't it it didn't work with the network election night broadcast um so that is I think I don't know I don't know this is a shout out to our listeners I don't know of any other example in the world of this of this happening um but as we dive into where we are four years four years four days before it's going to feel like four years exactly because final opinion polls come out tomorrow Friday Night final surveys and then the next time uh we see anything will be on Election night as I said the exit polls Tuesday 10 p.m. now traditionally happens in Israel between Friday and Tuesday is like a hyperlapse right you know those videos where the sun rises really fast or the building is built all the trends that we're seeing in the latest polls are like on steroids so you know if Co accelerated Trends and and compressed a decade into a year the final Fong of Israeli elections is compressing months into hours and I gave you this example I think a few uh programs ago where we talked about Leed on Friday in the polls 2013 he was 13 seats on election day he was 19 these are exactly the trends that are being uh accelerated and so what if that is the case what are the trends that we're seeing just in this as we get to the edge before the final furong what are you seeing the the how the lines on the graph moving so so there are two things that I think we should know one is that it's clear nah has momentum right I mean the whole campaign has been built around him taking full credit for uh Israel being the first country vaccinated obviously the Israeli Health uh infrastructure deserves a lot of the credit but they are not going to the pools and he is um so this is his line and obviously it's working rather well uh the person to came coming in to assist him is uh CEO of fizer Albert brah uh who told me this in an interview last week yeah he will call me 3:00 in the morning and he will ask me what about the variant what data we have and I said Minister it's uh it's 3:00 uh said no no no don't worry tell me or he would call me to ask about children I need to vaccinate the schools or to ask about pregnant women so he convinced me frankly that he will be on top of things and I knew that uh the Israelis they have such an experience in managing crisis because of the situation that they live surrounded by hostile basically Nations large degree I felt that they can do it and I felt that the leader was really going to guarantee that this will happen I have to say I love I I love this clip because the idea of it's he's picking up PB and he's saying look I trusted him with the vaccine but they're calling at 3 in the morning to ask for advice I mean this is my mother's word for a person like this is a nudge now I know the word nudnick but I for me this is a nudge someone who is just nudging and yogging you won't leave you alone and in a way on a human level you think oh annoying but maybe if somebody who's going to be in charge of protecting the country it's quite a good thing it's it's quite it's you know let's say nudnik in in the good sense of the word right uh but you know this has obviously been very very helpful for netanyahu's campaign he used this sound bite over and over just to note that for some reason he did not use the soundbite where bur says in the interview we will continue to transfer vaccines to Israel no matter who is elected on March 23rd he he didn't use that sound bite as much but again Netanyahu is in the momentum he's been giving so many interviews that I would not be surprised at this point if I open up the Disney Channel and I see him between Mickey and Donald you know sitting there you know saying goofy I brought vaccines to Israel the only thing that's botching his campaign is the UAE that basically told him please don't come here prime minister uh and saying rather you know even in diplomatic speak that was pretty harsh saying we're not interfering in Israeli elections I.E we do not want to be the backdrop of your campaign so that is on the one end the other side of the aisle is yair leid let's call him The Reluctant Challenger of netan we talk aled about this spent his whole campaign basically basement strategy right saying I'm not going to say I'm contending I'm I'm I'm going to be prime minister I'm going to let Netanyahu uh try and drag me out I'm not going to be dragged my his own strategy was to say we're going to quietly construct this Coalition with Bennett and with sa and with liberan and we'll bring this forth after the elections the closest thing he came to saying anything like I want to be prime minister is what he said to the Jerusalem Post earlier this week I think it's it's time for a generational change shift in Israel I think um as I was said I'm Ready the party is ready we have we have the right plans we have the right abilities we have the right experience by now it's been almost 10 years since I I I I went into politics we I served in in all different uh uh positions uh that prepares you uh to the moment so so yes if I will have the chance of course I will be more than honored to serve my country this way essentially the problem with leed's strategy at this point is that you you have to appear to be fighting for something right I mean if you're just sitting there saying no no I want a sane government but I'm not necessarily want to be the head of government that could be a problem when you're leading up to to the election so these are the two trends that we're seeing right now so my forever PM instinct is not far off on the basis of what you said it's interesting fored I don't know what LC could have done really because if you are saying don't vote for Netanyahu at some point you have to say you know I'm ready to do the job on the other hand if you felt it was a good strategy the basement strategy you know two weeks ago then surely it's good strategy now you do always want to see it through especially as for the reasons you said Israeli elections tend to have this phenomenon of late deciding consolidation these trends at the end and so you've now you know if you believe that was the right strategy if your yid have you blown it at the last minute by changing course and yet as I say I don't see what else he could do um partly you know cornered there by BB but you do wonder if now in these last three or four days he's what lepid has done is given the cue to Netanyahu to say see it's him or me it's all about the deficiencies of him lapid is a derang leftist that's usually his line and uh you know the you'd much rather me the nudnick and nudge you know rather than the nudnick and nudge you don't yet know and so yeah you know I think that's a good election slogan joh yeah see better the nuds you know this is what it would be like if I was running for office the the the nude you know um so I think yeah it's it's uh very hard to see how these other few these last few days could spring a big surprise given the trend lines you've set out yeah I look it is netanyahu's game to lose right and if I can share I I want to call it a trade secret so you'll think it's more interesting but just my notes to what to watch on Election night you're looking for that 61 you want to see you know that BB's block is Rock Solid you know uh that even now in the polls if you add leud and the ultra Orthodox parties and the extreme right party Al together it's about 48 or 51 you're going to need he's going to need Nali Bennett right in Hebrew we have a saying right you need the penny to complete the dollar uh you have to see that the math adds up that that Nar Bennett has has enough uh to bring Netanyahu to the threshold of 61 if you have that and again remember that naali benett we're talking about Trends always tends to shrink as we head to the Finish Line it's usually because of Netanyahu and uh so you're going to look for that 61 if you have that uh on Election night you know that netan has a government the rest is you know but but again you're going to see the indications of it being the other option which is a lockdown in fifth elections if for example you see the uh Arab party the United Arab list Ram that broke away from The Joint Arab list I'm sorry that this sounds like a Monty Python skit uh if they passed the threshold you know that the chances for fifth election for example are much more uh are higher are you confused yet Jonathan no yeah I am but you know it's very healthy this guide to the perplexed for how to watch the election I mean US News organizations gave good advice it turned out to be really precent advice which I think is parallel here in the in the American election they said look beware of a red Mirage on the night in other words Republicans appearing to be far ahead on the in-person vote and then there will be a blue drift as votes shift away to the Democrats because of mailin voting and that was very good advice and I just wonder if in a way there could be a sort of antib Mirage on the night where it looks better for the anti-al parties and I say this partly because often that's how it's been and then as the days go by and as extra votes come in often I know the votes from the the army soldiers Etc but just as votes shake out and those thresholds you know every last grush is counted as it were does it then go to you know shift away from that anti- BB block so the point I suppose is much as we all love election nights uh the sheer drama of them uh the the you know the you there is a health warning to be applied what happens in those first few hours especially the initial exit polls doesn't always pan out in the subsequent hours and particularly subsequent days agreed a lot can happen uh on Election night and after last election was actually an exception because we started out the exit polls of 10 p.m. said netan had a 60 had a block of 60 and that was pretty obvious the music of the whole the tone of the whole program after that was n was going to get a government and and that's where we are but only a day or two after we realized that he actually had 58 in his block and that changed the whole and he didn't have a government so again I would say yes uh take it with a grain of salt whatever happens the first hours on Election night not necessarily what will happen what what the true results are especially now we have so many people in quarantine voting uh and and their votes would would be counted a little later so yeah it's going to take a while and nobody knows that better about what happens after election night can change than our guest David Axel Rod because in American politics they know it ain't over on Election night it can take days weeks and months and that is our cue to turn to David Axelrod thank you so much for joining us today David it's such an honor and a pleasure fun to be with you thanks for having me um there's so many titles in your bio so I'll just go through a few director of the University of Chicago Institute I'm old is what you're saying I I I know you're trying no I said you have an impressive career it's not at all the same thing go ahead but I didn't me mention the Institute of politics in the University of Chicago and Senior politic political commentator on CNN and of course former senior adviser to President Obama and host of two of my I think I can say our Jonathan favorite podcasts the ax files and hacks on tap I I'm going to go David with with one of your earlier titles which Yi didn't mention because long before all of that in the Stellar career and political consultancy in Obama you were just like us I'm not saying you were a third Jew on the news you were a journalist a political colonist you did what I do for living on the Chicago Tribune so you are unlike me in your needs because we've stayed with journalism our whole careers watching on the side lines observing political operatives and candidates and you were doing that you then went in to politics and now you're like us now you're a podcaster you're an observer of the political game and I just want to know as somebody who really hasn't dared do that what it's like to make the move from polit from journalism into politics and especially back again yeah I I was listening to your account and I was thinking man I'm confused I can't decide what I want to be but I I I I was a journalist for the first 10 years of my career and I really grew up in The Newsroom of the Chicago Tribune and I loved it and I was interested Jonathan and some guy came up to me when I made the move another U uh an operative at U at City Hall in Chicago and he told me that uh about another guy who had made the switch and the guy said to him you know I just got tired of asking people uh questions that I knew the answer to and I figured I'd rather be inside the room you know and uh so all of that was at play and it was a great it was a great decision and it gave me incredible perspective and I that was required but I'm happy to be back on this side now and sitting with the likes of you you know I I I listen to you David and and there you know if I would if I were saying this in Hebrew I'd say you're the architect of the Barack Obama phenomenon you know excuse me for my bluntness and I remember this uh I it's in his book uh in President Obama's book uh promis on I think you're mentioned so many times second only to Michelle Obama there's that beautiful story of you s sitting in a cafe my God I was second yeah that could have been awkward but you're sitting in a cafe and he comes to you and and you say to him something along I think the lines was something like uh maybe should run for mayor of Chicago um and just that I I wonder if in the world we live in when everything's so polarized here in this country and Israel of course in the United States is there an option for a Barack Obama story to to happen again for someone to come like you're quoted there saying shot out of the cannon coming out of nowhere into National politics and and sweeping the nation and breaking that deadlock is there an option of that in in the world we live in you need I can't uh um I can't surrender that idea I can't surrender that possibility I I think that you know in democracies ultimately the market will determine and uh it could be that and I'm hoping that people become so um concerned about the level of polarity and so disgusted by it that the prospect of uh of being more of a community again an American community and Israeli Community um you know that those things will have enough appeal to enough people that someone could come along uh and do that but you know it's been there's no doubt it's been a sobering decade you know we came with such uh high hopes of uh being able to change the tenor of politics in Washington and and Washington was deeply resistant and um you know we obviously Trump was a very very extreme reaction to all of that uh now everybody you know each side has its own I mean there is fact there is truth uh what I find on the conservative right is they there is an alternative set of facts and uh people you know deeply believe them and uh that is uh that's a very hard uh thing to penetrate so the short answer to your question which and that horse has left the barn the short answer but is that yes I still hold out hope that it's that that such leadership is possible and I'm hoping that the market will demand it but I recognize that there are a lot of forces pushing against it I mean it does make you wonder now if the same person the same skill set Barack Obama David Axel Rod at his side put together the same campaign whether now because of the landscape we're in with as you were saying the fragmented segmented social media TV whether Obama phenomenon could happen in this particular climate even with you know everything else being equal you just couldn't do that you couldn't be this big single breakthrough because because of what you've just described that kind of polarization yeah um you know it's a good question and I often think about it you know in sports you say well what if Muhammad Ali had fought Joe Lewis what would have happened what if you know you can't you know it'd be interesting to know what a matchup between Obama and Trump would have been like but you know one of the things that happened is that um I mean the there is a reactionary movement in this country that's being propelled by opportunists in the media and politics against uh cultural uh and economic change that is coming very rapidly and Obama and demographic change and Obama you know in some ways reflected that change and became a Target uh for those opportunists there is an element of cultural elitism that uh Democrats have projected that has made it easier for the opportunists to scoop up these people and say you see they disdain you they disdain you you belong over here with us in our tribe that is what has to be broken and I will say one of the skills of Obama one of the great talents is that he could walk into any room and feel comfortable I think Biden got elected in part because he had the ability to tra transcend some of those lines he didn't send those culture signals when you're talking about Biden I mean he got the message was was was very clear throughout right it says return to normaly return to sanity maybe even return to boredom right it was like this is going to be add one more on which is return to decency right but but what we're not but I me and we're seeing now something that is transformational right you see the stimulus you see this taking on Russia it is I mean it's dramatic and for from someone who for someone who saw it from the inside this is is this a decision to be you know to be very very strong at the beginning use every Cannon you have wi after winning the election just going very very strong I mean that that is the the logic of this decision yes I mean I think that the history will tell you that U you know president is never as strong as in the first two years it's could be harder for Democrats to hang on to one or both houses of Congress uh and so you know he knows his popularity is probably at a at a Zenith and his power is at a Zenith now and he needs to accomplish as much as possible as quickly as possible and of course the virus uh and the economic dislocation of the virus has caused uh creates a sense of urgency and he is uh responding to it and taking advantage of it let's just talk about this thing about being in the room which you said you wanted to be and in a way part of the for journalists we always feel our faces are pressed up against the glass and we don't know so just take us into one moment for for example it's just happened in the last 24 hours this thing of Joe Biden saying in an interview that Vladimir Putin is a killer and the you know the moscow's reating very strongly to that y was referring to that the something like that a moment like that when it happened he wasn't Wrong by the way but right I mean but the the thing that I think journalists are interested in is the extent to which something like that is deliberate and intended you know does President you've been in those rooms do you before the interview say why not use this opportunity to go hard after Putin or is it that the question comes the candidate the principal in this case the president just responds what they think and then you guys people like you afterwards deal with how to manage it that that's always a question for people like let me let me say a few things about that I saw the interview and you know George Stephanopoulos who's an excellent interviewer positive he asked him exactly a veteran of the White House in in the Clinton years asked him the qu do you think he's a killer um it wasn't that uh you know Biden didn't volunteer it but he answered honestly to it and I'll say this having worked with the president when he was vice president um everyone's strength is their weakness he is he's honest and he's he's blunt and he's straightforward and he tends to answer these questions directly I think that's authenticity is one of the reasons he got elected president but it gives you know I think it it it often can give heartburn to the people who work for you if you're that kind of a a politician and um I I don't think he went into that interview with the the Mind toward calling uh Putin a killer that word was offered to him and he acknowledged it I think he probably did go in with a mindset toward saying we're going to be tough with Russia and what happens in the room afterward I mean I don't know I haven't talked to them I don't know whether how they but you know there's you slap your forehead every once in a while when you you know and there are times and not specific to any candidate or or office holder when you just feel like saying man get out of that chair and let me answer that question you know that's not the way we were supposed to answer that question I've got to ask you just about what the thing that's on our mind with the elections coming up in Israel which is you know I was a correspondent in Washington a lifetime ago in the middle 1990s all I covered Bill Clinton versus Bob Dole for God's sake right and billon versus George Bush's father none of the people from those contests are still around but one person who was winning elections then is apparently winning elections now and the person I'm talking about is BB Netanyahu right elected first in 1996 and according to the polls a front runner at least in 2021 he lost a couple of times in the middle Jonathan but ever since 2009 yeah about 20 days after Barack Obama was inaugurated he he's winning he okay so your professional assessment David as somebody who assesses political horse flesh to use that americanism of all the candidates and politicians you've seen just wear on that scale you puts and I'm not asking for a judgment on his the Rights and Wrongs the morals of his politics just as a player of the game how good is BB netan I feel like this is almost a rhetorical question I obvious viously his durability uh speaks to that answer I mean and this is a value-free judgment because the way he stayed there I think raises a whole bunch of questions and you know in some ways he and and Trump were Kindred Spirits because he you know BB understands how to uh harness uh the passions of people the prejudices of people the fears of people uh to his own benefit and he's always been good at that from the very beginning um you know I have to tell you the first time I met him was in 1994 and I was on an APAC trip and we met with it was It was obviously before uh the assassination of of of of Rabin and we met with him and we met with Shimon Perez and we met with Rabin in a row and the same person in the room asked the same question which was Oso was going on what would happen you know how are you going what are you going to say to the settlers if they have to move as a result of these peace negotiations and BB's answer was very I tell them they don't have to move cuz I'm not going to do it you know uh Perez said I think sincerely but it can't when I talk about sending the wrong message it was I tell them they're free to stay under Palestinian rule uh and Robin who was clearly impatient with having to meet with us in the first place kind of grumbled I tell them that too much blood has been spilled we've lost too many of our young and peace has a price and this is the price uh and you could you sort of saw you could see why he was the leader um but uh BB plays the emotional elements of politics to his Advantage um and the cultural Wars uh as well as any American politician including Trump and you know what he has that Trump doesn't is he does have a a deep grasp of government and all the levers of government I mean Trump was disinterested in those uh BB understands them at an integral level so he those qualities combined has made him the most you know one of the most durable political figures in the world David are there any fond memories from the uh netan years and the Obama years that you remember one of the interesting ones was there was a published report that uh that Netanyahu referred to uh at at a cabinet meeting referred to uh Rah Emanuel who is the chief of staff uh and my friend and um uh and myself as uh self-hating Jews uh and a reporter asked me about that and I said he's got it all wrong I I love myself I hate Rah he just uh got wrong but and and and uh and the Prime Minister we I saw him at the UN conference shortly after that report and he it may have been I think it was at Ang and he it was that that falls uh right before the high holidays and he wished me a happy holidays and I think said something about that you know that you know that wasn't so I you know whatever it gave me it gave me the it gave me a chance to have a joke at rah's expense so I thought it was worthwhile badge of honor I would say yes if indeed he is elected we don't know that obviously if we're looking at anow government or I don't know if everybody anybody ever gets elected there I think you just have I talk about full service that that is a full service industry doing the election thing forever that's basically where we're we're going to try that and see how it works um uh but but if he does how does the aftertaste of the uh Obama Netanyahu uh relationship or or dysfunctional relationship how does that uh affect the the relationship with with the Biden Administration well I mean uh in in part that is going to rest with with Netanyahu and and how he decide does he decide to position Biden and the us as a government as hostile um as he did during the Obama years or does he try and position himself as a a guy who really understands American politics and is tight with the the leaders here and and and that redounds to Israel's benefit you know I I I don't know he he'll have to to make a decision on that and I you know I think it's interesting the Biden Administration has been in the early going I think you know partly because I think there's an election going on they've been pretty lowkey uh you know obviously they're they're pursuing uh the potentially the uh you know re-engaging with Iran and so on and that's a that's obviously a a a sensitive subject but by and large they've been pretty quiet and we'll see you know what happen happens Beyond I don't think they're going to abandon their view on a two-state uh solution I don't think they're going to abandon their view on settlements uh but how they pursue it we'll we'll wait and see so I think that's a TBD is the honest answer to that you know the there are some of your colleagues who've not just observed Israel from a distance but gone over there and worked there you know Stan Greenberg who pulled for Bill Clinton then pulled for Ehud Barack and uh we were reading I don't know if anything came of it cuz they then had some other difficulties but the Lincoln project who were offering their services to one of netanyahu's Rivals uh in Israel do you think us Mark Melman by the way who's leede strategist right yes and who's brilliant brilliant guy I know him very well does US political expertise travel is it an exportable commodity do you think well you you you omitted one big name now deceased Arthur finklestein who was very integral to yah's and and and imported I think a lot this this notion of uh of mining uh cultural resentment uh you know racial resentment and so on I mean all of that stuff were things that he brought from uh the US uh there and I think he found a willing and able partner in Netanyahu um you know the the art of being a an American consultant Consulting over sees is the ability to listen very carefully and understand what is different and not just what is the same you know I mean one of the things that I thought was useful to me as a strategist was being a journalist because when you're a journalist your job is to parachute in to places you've never been before and it and not assume that you know all the answers but have a pretty good sense of the questions you need to ask to get to the answers and that's what good Consultants do and you know I'm sure look you you mentioned y you mentioned Melman who I've worked with over the years um you know he's very very good and and you know he's a pollster so he's used to asking questions uh so you you know I'm sure that he is he's valuable to uh to Le yeah I I guess we'll see we'll see just how valuable I don't want to put it all on Mark there are other things that play here no but definitely he's the strategist behind the idea to sort of stay in I call you know kind of a basement strategy right not take netan on head on Etc um I I I want well and not make leede you know BB wants to make it a BB leede race and try and uh collapse some of these smaller Progressive parties and uh I think Leed is not playing he's not playing right but the question is how how well this whole thing will play out and this this we really don't know I I I want to ask you something from from another Direction uh David right after the capitol riots you said something that haunted me for a few days you I think you spoke I think you said this on hexon and on CNN you said that you your parents fled Eastern Europe they fled persecution and you never thought you would see as an American these pictures and we were talking to Jeffrey Goldberg a few weeks ago about how the sense of security of of Jewish Americans I think we we well we're two Jews on the news so we're trying to understand how Jews feel around the world do you feel like something has changed in your sense of security uh in the in these four years after four years of trump um look uh you know first of all I mean it's just a fact that hate crimes are up exponentially here and and and anti-Semitism is on the rise and you see these groups I mean look at qanon which incred I mean this insane kind of theory uh you know that includes you know Jewish Jewish lasers from space start star ing fires in California and so on uh you know we saw the marches in uh in Charlotte the Marchers in Charlottesville saying Jews won't replace us um you know and and in Nazi regalia you know it's un to say it's unsettling is an understatement and I I will tell you when I even when I was in the white house which was uh before Trump um I had uh Secret Service protection because a guy shot up the Holocaust museum in Washington and he had my personal information in his pocket and so that created a concern so you know I I'm aware I don't I don't I don't think about it moment to moment but you know the my vision of America is where we where whatever our background our faith and so on we're knitted together in in one community of of shared sort of Civic ideals um that has been Riven and whenever that happens wherever it happens um if you're a Jew I mean that's a source of concern uh because that social fabric is also what uh protects people you know to practice their faith to and their culture and so on so um you know no I don't live dayto day with it yonit uh and but but does it concern me yeah concerns me not for my own safety but generally for the safety of the community and the coherence of the American community so David I didn't know that story about you yourself being your details being found with the person had shot of the Holocaust Museum that is very jolting to hear I mean what came out the conversation on similar ground we had with Jeff Goldberg was this idea that relatively late in his life this was more or less the first time he had ever felt this about America that and certainly for those of us outside America whatever troubles there are for example here in Europe for Jews the place which you've just taken as read as an absolute Bedrock stability of democratic Norms was always the United States and that was the you know what whatever else was happening you just thought it would never happened there so I'm just curious to know whether the the Trump period and seeing those Democratic Norms being trampled on gave you that feeling of uncertainty for the first time or whether you'd had it before after all from that own you know your own personal experience of being targeted you know we've had periods in this in this I mean we've had neo-nazis and George Lincoln Rockwell and people like that who you know that's part of our history um but it's never been um it's never been affirmed by people in in high places and certainly not the president of the United States before and so yeah it's it's um I I I agree with Jeff that um this is something new to most of us um you know we haven't seen this kind of virulence but virulence I mean the thing that upsets me is is is not the virulence because we've always had this kind of we've had these movements before it's the acceptance of them the acceptance of them you know as I said affirmation by the president I mean we have two members of Kon or two adherence to Kon in the United States Congress now you know it would be as if you guys elected kahanists to the knesset oh wait a second that could happen I guess but anyway may just just may happen yes but I mean it is it is that that the the the kind of respectability that this is being shrouded in that somehow this is a valid that these these race theories are valid uh that is new uh you know coming from high places and that is concerning and you know I uh I read and now I've watched the TV series that resulted Philip Roth's book the plot against America it felt a little like that that was exactly what I little like that yeah it felt a little like that and that that's really unsettling and I do think of my father who fled uh from what is now part of Ukraine when he was a boy and all the horrors that he saw and the sense of security that my family felt in finally making it to America uh and what he might think uh when he saw these scenes or my grand grandfather who uh who came here from Russia on my mother's side uh for the same reasons um it's it's very unsettling we should have one ever so slightly lighter thought which is it's not only the Israeli elections that are approaching that wouldn't be hard would it it wouldn't be hard um the festival of peso Passover is looming some of us are already planning a zoom seder for the second year running but do you know already David where you might be for your Seda this year in 2021 no I'm trying to figure it out I was just discussing this with a friend of mine from Chicago who's out here so NE to where's out here by the way we see you as such a chicagoan you're not in Chicago no right now no I'm a virtual chicagoan uh I am so am I by the way I grew up there so I'm a virtual Chicago and myself I um where did you grow up uh Laker Drive and Sh met Jewish Day School ah yes there about Ste graduate I think R Emanuel was a he did yeah and his kids his kids yeah so anyway uh we digress um I'm uh I'm I I came I've been coming we have a a place in in Arizona I love baseball and I love the the climate and in the winter I try and sneak down here but it's been a great place to be during this period it reminds me how lucky I am and many of us are to uh have that ability during during a pandemic a lot of people here haven't but um uh yeah I'm down here but don't tell anybody since next year in Phoenix your secret is safe with us okay yeah next year in Phoenix is good yes D Phoenix next year in Chicago I think is probably the way I should say the ancient prayer next year in Chicago from the girl from Tel Aviv has to invite you all to do next year here um but thank you so much for talking to us it was pleas to be with you thank you so much thank [Music] you that was a very interesting conversation it really was I mean not everybody who was a political operator makes the transition into being a really Sage Observer of politics but but uh David axod in his podcasts and on ours today has shown he absolutely is is one of that very select group indeed and we would want to make the point after Jeffrey Goldberg and David aarod Jonathan that our mic is open to non-jews as well um just saying if President Biden wants to come come on you're not going to tell him sir I'm sorry you're an Irish Catholic you don't have to be Jewish is the title I want to steal from of course yeah that has a good and long history no we could have two and two Jews and an honorary Jew on the news if President Biden wants to come to us you remember we're there on Instagram President Biden we are two Jews on the news we know you're busy on that platform find us there find us wherever you get your podcast Mr President we are here for you um have no fear you cannot though I think uh be a recipient of this week's HSPA award because yonit Levy you already have candidates for that prize indeed uh if if I can Jonathan I don't know if you'll like it uh but it is my but my nominee for kuta in the week uh will be the European Union and I'm talking about the astrazenica mess um now some people uh very small amounts develop blood clots after taking the astroica vaccine and some EU countries immediately suspended the use of it now we have 19 countries not using the vaccine uh despite a host of of scientific and health experts saying that the vaccine is safe and that the benefits of using it outweigh the risks now the EU is Furious saying it's not getting enough vaccines and may even suspend sending to Britain those vaccines produced in the EU the same vaccines they say are unsafe uh so really just a tragedy of bad decisions and bureaucracy and not a good time for the European Union the sad thing about it is that it's giving this exact problem of bureaucracy and everything that is the the cascading consequences of it are just giving the ammunition to the people who are antiu yeah I think it's a worthy recipient of the uh HSPA uh award for us it does recall an old joke I mean when you have the Brussels officials and individual heads of government in Europe saying you know the Astro zenica vaccine is flawed we don't like it we don't think it's tested enough on over 65s and we think also there's these risks and meanwhile why haven't we got more of it I mean the contradiction why are you under producing the the contradiction there does recall that very old still worthwhile Jewish joke of the two diners at the kosher restaurant lamenting and one says to the other the food here is so terrible and the friend replies yes and such small portions and and that's this is the the EU has made that joke um live again for the 21st century because remember it wasn't Ju Just with these reports of these handful of cases about blood clotting and by the way people point out there are just as many cases uh associated with the fiser vaccine and no one's complaining about that no it's the the people like for example Emanuel macron were kicking off about this before saying that you know they weren't sure that the Oxford uh astroica group had done enough trials among older people so they were against this from the beginning because they hadn't got enough they hadn't ordered the supplies and therefore almost like the old sour grapes thing they were saying look because we can't get it we don't want it anyway uh and so you know there is there's there the hsur of the EU on this issue has been noticed by our hser award judges in previous weeks even before we got to this but this week it Rose to the level where a nomination was really Irresistible by the academy that hands out the hser awards is the academy is it in in Stockholm in Brussels in many locations you know it is it's reaches International as you can imagine and yeah but this week they felt there was really no competition so the EUR European Union I'm a afid I say this as a conviction remainer uh and was on the opposite side of the brexit argument it has not covered itself in glory when it comes to the vaccine yes uh so with that uh sad sighing I will move on to the Manch nominee of the week the people the good men and women of the Israeli Antiquities Authority responsible for the discovery of the new Dead Sea Scrolls now more than 2,000 years old this week very similar to the highly regarded Dead Sea hidden Scrolls that were found in the in the 50s and are in the Israel Museum and now a new rare find Greek translations of uh the books of Zechariah and theum are written in uh uh by the way the only the word the name of God is written in Hebrew in these texts as you britz would say quite an exciting uh Discovery here in the Levant uh what was also um excavated was a 10,000-year-old perfectly preserved woven basket the oldest complete Basket in the world way before Amazon and the thing I'm most excited about Jonathan is is a 2,000-year-old lice comb which eerily resembles the same lice comb we use today and I'm just think I used this week on my son's head incidentally and just thinking of that woman that mother 2,000 years ago using that lcome on her son and saying to herself these Li are never going to go away and she was right I just I love that story I love that story yeah no I love the there's solidarity and empathy across two Millennia um my children now past that age but I do remember the we called it the sort of nits comb although it was a lice comb but the children would have a little note from the school saying there's nits again or lice again um relate if we are handing out mench Awards to the recovery of of long forgotten and long buried texts your one in the land of Israel is 2,000 years old my one in diaspora is only 70 or so years old but it is a the mench recipient uh is also associated with a recovered text and that is the novel that I am reading reading and really gri by at the moment published in this country next month but I got an early copy it's called the passenger by ol Alexander boschwitz and you may be thinking Ah that's a new upand cominging novelist uh who we haven't uh been reading and in a way you would be right in that uh he was a new and upcoming uh upcoming novelist 23 years old when he wrote the passenger in 1938 uh he wrote it uh fresh in the wake of the Christal pogram in Germany or obviously wrote it in German it is a sort of gripping read uh like a kind of Hitchcock and Thriller the Publishers are saying um because it is about one man's escape from Nazi Germany a Jewish man's Escape as he realizes uh the net is tightening thrilling read um and the manuscript was found uh a couple of years ago uh having Lane buried was republished in 2018 across Europe and has been getting rave reviews in the countries of Continental Europe comparisons with France CFA in Elise it comes out in English after all these years next April it is called the passenger but ol Alexander bosz a young man who did not live actually Beyond 1942 um killed in a in a remarkable circumstances he was deported from Britain sent to Australia was on his way back from Australia uh to uh Britain and his ship was sunk by a Nazi submarine it's an amazing Story the book itself is gripping but uh like your mench of the week my one is the author of a text that had Lain apparently forgotten and buried all these years and so I think there's a nice symmetry between our Menches of the week so the book itself is gripping and the story behind it so from old old manuscripts and antique Scrolls as our Mena nominees uh we can uh scroll down further and say again that we have an Instagram page did you see what I did there I did and I was impressed there I just pass from 2,000 years to social media I I wanted to impress the lofty columnist guy okay so we have our Instagram page at 2js on the news can't believe that username was available uh but it is that's because Harry and Moray in Florida and not yet they're not yet on Instagram in boa rone and if they were they would have taken it because as you know two Jews are in the News That's You and Me Marvin um but instead it's you and me on each we've taken it uh and so it's there you can also get us uh wherever you get your podcast remember review there's only one review option available we want the festar rating but you can also write words and review some lovely ones already appearing do that tell your friends you can WhatsApp if you know why not write to your friend your relatives in Florida uh with a letter um uh snail mail and Le's doing a gesture involving Wings what would that be what does that mean I don't know he means I think he means the um oh carrier pigeon send it by carrier pigeon the carrier pigeon that was very good he was doing our brilliant producer was doing a carrier pige in mime as a as a as a mime artist he's a very good executive producer um I think we are almost reaching the end time indeed let's let's say our thank yous to our mime artist and ex itive producer leor Friedman and R atic head of podcast Bashan for editing Andel for original music next week our special election debrief and Jonathan will share his secret recipe from Mall soup and hopefully his communist haa as promised that will be next week Jonathan enjoy your week I won't be sleeping much but we shall meet happy election night you're neat good good luck to everyone good luck to you be well you too [Music]