hey pull up a chair it's hacks on tap with David Axel root Robert Gibbs and Mike [Music] Murphy and I think we all can agree whether people like him or they don't like him in light of what happened to him on Saturday he has proven to be one tough o so Mike Murphy uh we're missing you here in Milwaukee but uh I I I'm I understand why you I'm banned I'm banned and I I love Milwaukee I used to do a lot of races in Wisconsin but uh I have a rule in my dotage that I only go to Republican conventions where we have two requirements one a sane candidate and two I have an officer p and neither are true this year so I I'm more than happy watching it from my B could have got using bror I mean think about no my my day is passed I uh I I I was interested though to hear that was from Shawn O'Brien that uh boss of the teamsters who gave an effective speech although it as an old Republican it's new for me to hear about economic terrorism from the uh Das of a Republican National Convention that was quite a U-turn there well listen there's there's nobody who uh knows uh and has chronicled the evolution of the Republican party in this country better than Tim Alberta absolutely of the uh Atlantic who is with us uh good to see you buddy uh tell me uh you know I watched that speech by uh Sean O'Brien uh and I looked at the crowd and other than the so line I think people were trying to figure out what to do yeah they were axe uh and Mike thanks for having me guys yeah it was interesting so I'm actually up in my perch right now in the Press risers where I was last night during that speech and you know this is my fourth Republican convention and I was really carefully scanning the crowd and during those moments it was interesting because up until then I really found myself marveling at how incredibly unified for a lack of word this convention is I mean uh especially relative to 2016 when half except what Mitch McConnell was except when Mitch McConnell was booed yeah that was that was interesting but like you think back to 2016 in Cleveland guys half the delegates here were anti-trump I mean you didn't see very many Maga hats on the convention floor back then and and to see how dramatically the party apparatus has been transformed in those eight years is really something and that's why the O'Brien speech was interesting because it was really the only moment last night I felt where there was discomfort in the crowd there there there were a lot of sort of um glances being exchanged and people not quite sure how they should be reacting because it's one thing to talk about being sort of PR labor as a general construct as we're you know talking about the realignment of the Republican party to become this multi-racial workingclass Coalition that's all fine in the abstract but when you start attacking Corp operations as being you know as committing economic terrorism like you said David uh that's that's a very different message than we're accustomed to hearing at Republican events in my view it just proves and I'm not going to try to grind my ax because I get why they did it but the Trump World politically is a temple built upon cynicism so they're like get the teamster guy to raise the roof and talk jobs in the economy our issue all good and if he wants to get into his Eugene Jeb stuff fine with us because content doesn't matter it's all theatrics any kind of populism works and there some of those delegates are still Old Line repubs who've kind of seen a lot they smell winter on Trump no other place they could be by choice anyway because there's no viable you know other path in the party right now but I could I could feel the mouth vomit as an old Republican at some of that stuff but to the Trump World doesn't matter there's I mean Reagan was buried at this convention ideologically I mean this was more more than uh this was more than about U you know show Showmanship or U messaging it Tim it was also about uh blunt transactional politics Trump wants to stop the teamsters from endorsing Biden and try and get them to endorse him and the price of it was to let O'Brien speak at the convention uh and uh put him in a featured role uh so that you know that was the that was the trade-off but they have they did now I well let's let's just go through this because we're sort of burying the lead here but we will get back to it uh they have made a huge he's making a huge bet on economic populism and that was reflected in his choice of JD Vance as the running mate Tim talk about that and what you read on that whole uh deal is and what impact it's likely to have now and what impact it's likely to in the future for months David what I've been hearing from people close to Trump is that the conversations around a running mate were really always operating on Parallel tracks um on the one side there was conversation about effectively a caretaker VP someone who would be sort of vanilla and non-controversial and who could help to you know maybe rough off some uh sand off some of his rough edges and governor bergam I.E a Doug bergam maybe even a Glenn yunin somebody who you know although yunin maybe a little too young in age to to fit the bill exactly Too Tall and too handsome right but Berg although you know wouldn't kneeling work I think kneeling seems to working would work yes uh or just or just cut him down to size a bit um magga face tattoo I think that was on the menu for possible fixes but you know they had but but and the interesting thing guys is that for the bulk of the campaign as far as I've been able to report it out Trump was really leaning heavily in that direction for a whole host of reasons the other track though running parallel was this idea of picking effectively an era parent to the mega Empire picking his successor to to the movement and I think Trump for a long time was really uneasy with that idea he he he he kind of preferred to okay let's win let's serve four years and then I can be king maker for the rest of my life and be able to from the sidelines demand everyone come kiss the ring and then I can sort of watch them fight it out for my affections later something changed though in the last from what I've been told that like the last four to five weeks his thinking on this really began to shift and he really warmed up to the idea of hand selecting his successor here someone who he felt really had not only undergone this dramatic personal Evolution to come to see the light on trumpism but who was able to better articulate the sort of um the America First populism that Trump has only really been able to describe in sort of uh a blunt visceral sweeping nonspecifics and in advance I think he really sees someone who can actually put meat on those bones and so it's a really it's a f fascinating Evolution that Trump himself has been on recognizing that and let's be clear I think the biggest drawback all along for Trump was the idea that he could be upstaged by picking someone who was younger who was more ideologically committed someone who might be a bigger draw than he is frankly in some ways and yet he did come to embrac this idea and ultimately picked Vance and I think that was surprising to some people you know in the end he picked the Sunny wish he had um because you know it's uh it's the cleanest maga maga shot he could take uh it it totally resonates now it it is Bizarro weird to somebody like me because I knew JD back in his anti-trump days liked them pretty smart guy yeah but I it it made me think back to what one of the big Republican party fundraisers in 16 for another candidate uh actually 15 uh called me up and said well I just spent SP an hour with Trump and and and Trump said look I'm just putting on a show for the Rubes here you know I get it blah blah blah which he did to a lot of people in The Establishment back then a face in the crowd right total face in the crowd and I think on a deep level he connects with Vance that way because Trump's a siic he part of it is like can you believe they fought for this crap and and Vance is a guy who's done the 180 with a with a reckless abandon that's impressive to the point where in some ways he is kneeling down he's done a total Sur Ender to trumpism and become a pretty good zealous convert I don't know if he believes any of it or not but I think even that cynicism is a point of binding with Trump so there they are and you're right he has set up I predict by the way trouble in Paradise here because Trump doesn't like Rivals he doesn't like somebody with more Talent so by setting up Vance's air parent he's also set up future troubles should they get into the oval but anyway I think it was the well he'll start running for president on day one yesterday yeah yeah exactly us but he was also the hammer choice for all the talk and maybe it's tactical spin for the convention we'll see if they can execute of the Kinder gentler trumpism Vance is a hammer and so it's going to be interesting to see if they can evolve what's always been kind of a on Note kind of hard grievance populism with Vance who's a you know Harmony player on that into something else post the assassination attempt I see all of the stuff that you guys are saying um there's also like a shortterm you know short-term play here one is that he is a good television uh personality and someone who can go and so by the way uh you know Don Jr uh Sunny Corleone uh was pushing this forever and Tucker Carlson you know uh was pushing uh Vance as well but uh I do think if you were making political calculations you'd also say well you know this kind of populism sells in a lot of the places other than the cities in the midwest you know and so and they know that the way Biden Biden has I mean whether he has a path at all is something we need to talk about but to the extent he has one it runs through Pennsylvania Michigan and Wisconsin and you know uh I think Vance is going to be in those States selling that my question about it is um he he may up the turnout in those areas in between Pittsburgh and and uh Philly which is the state that really is going to turn this election uh but uh what about the suburbs you know and how is he going to play there a guy who is a uh anti-abortion no exceptions guy uh you know a guy who is is a you know an isolationist and a January 6th uh AP apolog uh apologist um you know I don't know so uh Tim I mean how do you think you live in one of these Battleground States uh I I do as well but I actually live in a couple of them but uh what what do you think what do you think happens uh do you think that he is a plus or a minus in particularly those Battleground States or does it not matter you know I was just going to say David uh well I guess two things um number one I think the Trump campaign views him as not a plus or a minus they they they view um and I think that they had done some polling I think that they'd kicked the tires on a few different options here and ultimately came to the conclusion that really it didn't much matter who they picked as his VP that Trump is the brand Trump is the top of the ticket and ultimately people are going to be voting for or against Donald Trump pretty much regardless of of who he picks but then I think secondly and and and more importantly more to the point they think that this election's over I mean they they they aren't spending much time figuring JD Vance's appeal to the suburbanites in Oakland County uh they just they believe that Biden's goose is cooked and as one Republican said to me the other day when it was becoming really apparent that Vance was going to be the pick he said look man the revolution is on like they they these guys are already thinking Way Beyond November and I think the Vance pick is a pretty pretty good indication of that uh he's culturally good for the metal bending what I like to call the pop States popn soda which is the Great Lakes of my own beloved Michigan but I totally agree with Tim in A Trump World it's all about Trump and he he'll be a good messenger he'll be aggressive he'll be tactically effective he'll work hard because of his own ambition so I think on all that small stuff he'll be helpful but in the macro way it's the Trump show and I think even though no exceptions you got those arrows at him as long as the campaign is about Biden the way it is now very hard to move that to to somebody other than Trump hard enough to even try to move it to Trump and they do think it's over which is a huus that if the election were held tomorrow they're right so it it I'm I'm dubious yeah no I I hear you know one of the things that's going to be interesting is um this National political thing is is a lot harder than it looks from the outside uh and you know he's he's going to be tested in ways that he never was tested he wasn't a great candidate Vance in Ohio you know you know he uh he barely won a state while the governor was winning by you know 20 he he 20-some he won by seven uh you know now people grow they learn he but uh you know he's going to be tested in a lot of different ways here I wonder if the rest of the Republican Party really is just now uh going to pledge o obeses to the you know to the prince as they do in Saudi Arabia uh you know is he going to be the uh ruler in Waiting or are they going to uh have their own ideas when if if if Trump is to win this race but listen we bury the lead and the lead is um and you couldn't write the script of the last few weeks I mean if you were a novel writer you couldn't write the scripts of the last two weeks the uh the debate um followed by the Supreme Court ruling that g you know gave Trump uh unfettered uh or presidents but you know this is related to the Trump case sort of this immunity uh for anything that's deemed an official action anything uh and then um uh and then this horrible um uh shooting in assassination attempt in uh in Pennsylvania which which I want to talk about and then on Monday his friend in uh an appointee down in Florida judge Canon throws out what may be the most you know open and shut case which is the mishandling of documents and the hiding of top secret documents and then he come you know he comes into the convention basically as a martyr you know bandage on his ear sober you know uh uh you know I mean you know Tim you've written about folks think he's been sent here by God that he's God's anointed candidate and now God must be pissed sorry go ahead more of an avenging Angel well I think the idea is that God actually that this is more evidence that God saved him uh for this moment these weeks in a sense are a microcosm of this race and why they feel so confident because it starts with Biden's kind of breakdown at the debate uh and that's the image that people have now of uh that just cemented the image they have Biden and then it goes to and then this the companion image is Trump who improbably you know is shot as being led out by the Secret Service and has the presence of mind to pose for a hero photo on his way out the door that now is will be on every Republican t-shirt for a generation maybe um and uh you know I think that I don't think Trump is an unbeatable candidate but I think that he may be unbeatable right now uh if the race is continues to be between him and Joe Biden because that Dynamic is so strong what's happened in the last few weeks has solidified the dynamic that has driven this whole race which is strong versus Trump strong Biden weak uh Trump you know world out of control need strong man um it just seems like a very very tough Dynamic here and you can see why the Trump people feel like they're headed more for a landslide as you've written than for a squeaker yeah look we all realize that campaigns are really in in essence moments that's what V take away they take away moments they take away key images and if you had to name the two enduring images from this campaign to date anyway one would be Joe Biden looking one foot in the grave at that debate and unable to finish his thoughts uh looking pale sounding very frail and feeble and the second image would be Donald Trump humping his fist defiantly with the blood of the Assassin's would be assassin's bullet dripping down his face I mean and and if those two images would already be quite provocative and evocative and effective on their own David and Mike but they actually play directly into the central organizing strategy of the entire Trump Campaign which is to make everything about strength versus weakness as as Chris LV the co- of the campaign told me it's all about a contrast in visuals that Americans are visual creatures that politics are becoming more visual than ever before and everything they've wanted to do to frame this race around strength versus weakness has now effectively been done for them so let's be clear I mean axe I was out at the IOP with you in Chicago several months ago and we did this live event there where I said then that based on my reporting I was starting to get a funny feeling that Trump might run away with this thing and that you know and I think a lot of people looked at me like I was nuts and obviously everything we've seen since then has really only accelerated those trend lines it's it's just become very difficult to see a scenario in which Biden can beat him and I think it's frankly it's much easier to Envision a scenario where Trump does push 320 330 electoral votes I think that's a more plausible scenario at this point Point than Biden winning this squeaker running the table in the midwest yeah I couldn't agree more Biden it's almost as if the Biden we have now at 81 was invented in a lab to make Trump's strengths the center of the campaign and not his weaknesses and so that's got to change which is why I do think this change nominee thing is not over parties don't like suicide missions so you know we will see there's going to be a crescendo next week cuz if the ours have their stuff together and there's a chance they don't it's still the Trump world I mean the first night we saw last night is always kind of freaks and weirdo night you get them all out of the way marjerie Taylor green all right CHR get ready to pull the mic and the gimmick was the teamster guy though the real gimmick which was back to the point you guys are making was Trump doing his triumphant enter did his uh his raised fist salute he you know the Martyr Tucker Carlson there grinning like a Chesire Cat it was a good night for Trump and if they can take some of the wacket doodle edges off not natural for them but they have something to lose now they are in control of the race they are out front Biden is in a swirl down the drain uh they're going to come out of this with the best data advantage over Biden they've had yet and then the Dems going to react to that over the next you know postc convention week to 10 days and something will happen or it won't and that's going to be it that's going to be where the die is cast for this race now let me just finish if somebody new came in it could turn everything upside down out I mean this will be the most exciting presidential ever because it could be a disaster it could be a reset you know right now the Trump campaign just needs to kill every possible day without controversy and they win but you know it's in Biden's hands whether or not that happens yeah a lot of golf would be a good political prescription in the Fiji Naval Base okay then let's take a break right here and we'll be right back [Applause] you know the way things are set up in this social media world you find yourself comparing yourself to others your life to others your the pace of your achievement to others you sometimes get caught up in Wishing your life looked like someone else's and that's not terribly healthy that produces a lot of anxiety so it's hopeful to learn positive coping skills and how to set boundaries it it empowers you to be the best version of yourself it isn't just for those who've experienced major trauma but for everyone who's living in this modern world of ours and gets caught up from time to time in that kind of thinking if you thinking of starting therapy give better help a try it's entirely online designed to be convenient flexible and suited to your schedule just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge stop comparing and start focusing with with betterhelp visit betterhelp.com haacks toay to get 10% off your first month that's betterhelp hp.com [Music] haacks this thing is going to intensify now because the the the story has surfaced that the DNC is going to try and hasten the nomination of Biden to weeks before the election in a virtual vote they had originally scheduled that because Ohio said they needed to to be certified for the ballot Ohio changed its law so now it's clearly not about that this is about trying to crush the revolt and that immediately has spawned a huge reaction uh so you have the image of one party leaving its convention you know feeling hail and Hardy uh and uh and relatively unified other than the aforementioned booing of rhinos um and uh and the other party H you know undergoing a civil war in the days leading up to its convention um I I do think Trump I mean you look at the data dispassionately and clinically and I think Chris levita is a very very smart and very good and deserves a lot of credit for how this campaign has unfolded uh and for the discipline that they've showed uh un unlikely for Trump or unusual for Trump but he's still a vulnerable candidate there's no he's Trump I mean I agree on lasv but he's had the easiest Trump to ever deal with because Trump's always been ahead there's really never been a bad Trump week in this campaign and that's Trump starts to chew the manacles and go and take his own counsel so Chris has been able to do a great job of keeping cruise control moving there it'll be when something and it may not now they're on the railroad tracks but if something bad happens that'll be the real test and you're right if the debate can ever be Trump not Biden then it could be A different race but one thing the assassination attempted is it made Trump about bigger things at least right now than all Trump's own flaws Trump's now ass symbl for democracy under attack and that elevates him man that that's a whole different Trump the question is can Trump run with that or will he be back to doing the enemy list and the grievance the irony of the whole thing is that it you know and I said the night that it happened you know uh now nominee Vance shot out at a a tweet almost immediately you know blaming Biden for encouraging this and I said at the time you know people should hold their I said he should be dis qualified for shooting that out when he did that uh that tweet which um an angry retort from Don Jr but um uh but you know the the the shooter it turns out was it looks more like the kind of story that we've seen a million times by now which is that U you had a disturbed young kid who got a hold of a gun and for reasons still unknown but not apparently politics decided he was going to you know do what he did but the effect it's been framed now as an assault on Democracy it's been framed as an ass and yeah you're right that uh uh that that strengthens him listen getting to Biden uh he did this Lester Holt interview last night and he's really really fighting to stay uh and and let's be clear he has enough Sway With delegates and with the DNC that if he wants to stay he can stay but listen to some I there are a couple of exchanges I want you guys to listen to and then let's talk about it Mr Trump has said he's giving you a chance to redeem yourself basically the idea of engaging in another debate um we're going to have another debate yeah you're going to have one in September that's on the books would you be open to doing one in you know the next few weeks I'm going to debate him when we agreed to debate and I'm going to debate him in September but if if the opportunity came up to do one between now and then is there is there a sense of wanting to get back on the horse I'm on the horse where have you been I've done 22 major events met thousands of people overwhelming crowds a lot happening I'm on the horse what I'm doing is going out and demonstrating to the American people that I'm command of all my faculties that I don't need uh notes I don't need telepro I can go out and answer any questions at all and I stood there when when NATO was in town I stood there for an hour and answered questions 23 sco yeah not good who do you listen to on deeply personal issues like the decisions whether to stay in the razor or not me I've been doing this a long time the idea that I'm the old guy I am I'm old but I'm only 3 years older than Trump number one and number two my mental acuity has been pretty damn good I've got more done than any president has in a long long time in three and a half years he keeps pointing to uh what he's done in the past uh as evidence of what he's going to be like in the future uh and uh and it's just not at one point in the interview he said I know people want to know uh what I'm going to be like at 83 and 84 but he didn't answer any he can't answer that question here is the president with Lester Holt and Lester Holt is asking him is he eager to debate again is there a sense of wanting to get back on the horse I'm on the horse where have you been I've done 22 major events at thousands of people overwhelming crowds a lot happening I'm on the horse what I'm doing is going out and demonstrating to the American people that I'm command of all my faculties that I don't need uh notes I don't need telepro I can go out and answer any questions at all and I stood there when when NATO was in town I stood there for an hour and answer questions if you were to have continue to run and and be officially nominated what happens if you have another episode like we saw during the debate what happens have another yeah what what happens if if you have another performance on that part on that level I don't plan having another forance on that L all right Mr President it's always good to talk to you good to see you thank you for making some time for us sometimes come and talk to me about what we should be talking about all right okay the issues always happy to talk you know so guys this is exactly the fear uh among Democrat elected officials that I've spoken with they believe that Biden number one is keeping his own counsil to to the the point of that first audio clip that that ultimately there's nobody he's going to listen to about any of this and that number two he doesn't even recognize the extent of the damage that was done by that debate so when he says oh there's not going to be another moment what like you know this is um and of course even when he was asked that question he seems to not understand the question that was being asked and he had to pause and sort of scrunched up his face and had to be asked again um it's that interview only exacerbated the concerns that I'm hearing that you guys are both hearing from a lot of democratic officials and here's the thing Biden's answer about well I've been doing this a long time so you got to trust me right like well and you know a professional ball player who's got a long and storyed career behind him but who's clearly lost his fastball and is no longer as effective as he used to be and is getting hit all over the ballpark you know that person saying well I've got you know that that guy saying well I I you know earned a couple of Sai Youngs back in the 90s it doesn't mean much anymore right and and especially in politics it's supposed to be about the future it's supposed to be about Vision casting exactly Biden is spending so much time reassuring people that he's fine based on what he's been able to do do in the past that he's not able to articulate any sort of Forward Thinking message about what the future looks like and what his administration would do with another four years and why he is a better choice for all of these anxious middle class families uh outside of Detroit and Milwaukee and Philly and Phoenix than is Trump and so all of this has become it's it's like the gift that keeps on giving for Republicans because not only has it created this total sense of turmoil and disre inside the Democratic party but it is completely saturated uh all of the media all of the messaging around Biden and he's been just he's been prevented from offering any sort of a prescriptive vision for what his presidency would look like in a second term and I think that's just as damaging or contrast Mike I mean that's what you're talking about when you're in embattled incumbent you want to put the opponent in in the focus and uh and he can't do it they don't have a candidate that is the Democratic problem here because when they hide them it gets worse when they put them out to show it's fine it gets worse and and we've talked about this for years Biden has as a candidate one speed which is let me tell you about my great record you owe me your vote he's never been a future oriented candidate he wants to talk about all the great stuff I did for you the economy is better than you know it's terrible way to communicate with voters as Tim says it doesn't communicate to the their anxieties and he can't escape the old thing because the more he does to try to show he's not too old the more too old he looks so they are bringing a corpse to a knife fight here and Donald Trump is destroying this guy so it's down to the Democrats the real fight is the next two weeks in the window do they are they able to pressure him enough publicly and if they all act like Trump Republicans and Whisper oh I never like this guy in in the safety of their their basement you know hideout out it's not going to happen Democrats going to have to go public you know one of the real Lynch pins to the Biden Harris reelect from a messaging standpoint was always going to be look at all of these Republicans who are affiliated or were affiliated with Trump who don't want to see him elected so look at his own vice president look at his cabinet secretaries look at the people who worked with him in the White House and in the administration In The West Wing all of these people have come out and said Donald Trump shouldn't be president and that was going to be a really powerful centerpiece of the democratic messaging campaign this summer and this fall but now you've got what a over a over a dozen I think we're coming up on a couple of dozen Democratic elected officials who are saying that Biden shouldn't be president and and and so this is like Mana from heaven for the Trump campaign because I know that they were very concerned about how that that advertising Blitz splicing together all the comments of Mike Pence and Paul Ryan and Jim Mattis and others how how damning that was going to be but in some sense now the Trump campaign is able to neutralize that because they're going to be able to point to all these Congressional Democrats and say hey why why do you think it is American voter that his own party officials don't want him on the ballot because they don't think he can serve another four years they don't think he's capable of being your commander and chief it's so I I think in some sense this is almost robs Democrats of their secret weapon yeah it also puts Democrats in in a tough position because if you go out there and argue that he is able to serve four more years voters will look at you like your nuts you're lying to yeah and they already feel gaslighted oh they hit it's the new cover up and the donors are our R about that I mean I mean look at the basic choke hold Trump has on everything who who's younger and more vigorous Trump by 20 points even though they're in public perception even though they're three points who will do a better job running the economy next year Trump by 15 points I mean what does Biden have what what's his Edge there's nothing left we now we've made this point the question is what will happen and I think this campaign will be decided in the next two weeks yeah that's my view too two or three weeks if if this if there's no change if it's status quo I think the die is cast and the question is does the president realize it that this is not the Legacy uh that he wants uh by the way I think he's done far better than uh than he gets credit for now and he has done things of historic importance and I think history will record that but when you go to voters and say uh look at what I've done I just want to finish the job and you've got a 30 8% or 37% job approval rating they want to finish you yeah exactly so he ought to read a good Churchill biography hey I won the second world war get out we hate you go away you know you know what you know what's funny about that you guys is so I moderated the final man the sound check is killing me if you hear something in the background that is authentic convention sound checks to just to underscore the fact that Tim Alberta is right on the scene in right from the middle of it absolutely it's funny guys what I was gonna say is I I moderated the final Democratic primary debate of 2020 and uh hosted by PBS and Politico where I was working at the time and I had the chance to execute a rather long and intensive line of questioning to the candidates about the question of Age and and specifically Biden and I had sort of Spirited back and forth on this question of age Fitness uh seeking a second term and at one point when I was asking Biden this I I said you you would finish your term I think as the long as the oldest president in American history and then you would be asking for a second term at age you know going on 82 and Biden actually interrupted my question and said Winston Churchill which I found really interesting I was just thinking about this again the other day because Winston Churchill was 81 years old when he when he res when he left permanently as prime minister and in his second run on the job that is and so for Biden to compare himself at that point to Winston Churchill as saying look I'm an old guy but I can still get the job done just give me the chance he conveniently Now sort of neglects the fact that Winston Church Hill at the exact age Biden is today decided that it was time to hang it up and walk away too much right and and by the way with all due respect to Joe Biden who is a conservative I will give some good accomplish to you know I knew Winston Churchill Winston Churchill was a friend of mine and Joe you know Winston Churchill I mean that's ridicul but it gives you a glimpse i i people would mistake you Murphy just that church look yeah it's the cigars and my love of imperialism but you know the the um the thing is I thought we only had one eag Maniac running for president but tragically it's clear we have two yeah only I you know when he got asked in that press conference last Friday about why he wouldn't step aside and be the bridge he promised to be he said you know basically he said because no one could do what I could do and there is you know I mean one of the things that's been complicated for people is there concern about whether kamla Harris would do better than him I think there's enough evidence that she would do better than him the question is could she do well enough and could another candidate iffy but I'll take it right now because we know what he's not a bridge to the Future he's a diving board and it goes straight down Tim they're not begging for her even though she has vulnerability isn't that right no that's exactly right and look let's be clear you know I don't think the Trump folks are particularly convinced that comma Harris is a rare political athlete whom they need to fear but they have in every way optimize this campaign that they're running to be a very specific race against a very weakness bid Trump yes all of it anything new is trouble for would force them to fundamentally recalibrate in ways that they don't want to because right now they think that they're cruising and and from all appearances they are so whether it's Harris or whether it's Newsome or Whitmer or anybody they just don't want to see a change period they believe as I said earlier that Biden's goose is cooked and there's no uncooking it Mike did you watch the thing last night I watched parts of it it is a painful experience for me as an time GOP convention attendee and operative but I I watched I watched everything that counted I sped through some of the ham and egg speeches I missed the Tim Scott brilliant oratory but how did since you're since you're so venerable how did it compare to the Eisenhower Taft convention I far inferior far inferior th those were grown-ups the Trump moment was a big moment and it was you would expect it to be his demeanor kind of made it more powerful because he wasn't the preing peacock that he usually is he seemed very somber and and moved uh and so that was what it was they did a lot of work last night on uh uh trying to reach out to communities uh particularly the African-American community that I thought was interesting and I'm not going to play the clips but I was really struck by a couple of speakers John James and Tim Scott uh working the angle of they've done more for immigrants illegal immigrants than they've done for our communities and I think that's a big vein that's running through uh both the African-American community and parts of the Hispanic Community uh right now but in Theo on the whole Tim uh all I could do was sit there and think man this is an anachronism just All These Guys these long speeches uh one after another after another um you know the Democratic Convention 2020 was the probably the best convention that I've seen I mean I thought we did a good one in Denver and putting it in the stadium and so on but the the ability to mix in video and do interesting things to make it a more contemporary show was I just you know and plus there weren't that many great speakers last night I thought uh and they had to get their nutballs on there too you know so Marjorie Taylor green and Charlie Kirk and so on but what was your impression generally both you guys what was your review of what you saw well you know David I would add to everything you just said and note that the big draw yesterday the big uh suspenseful dramatic thing that everybody was waiting on which was the announcement of a running mate wound up being completely anticlimactic because Donald Trump put it on Truth social at about 2:00 in the afternoon right in the middle of the states going through their roll call in the opening ceremony on the convention floor so a lot of delegates didn't even see Trump's announcement and then suddenly very abruptly Mike Lee the senator from Utah who had just been given the news like a minute earlier when he stood up to announce Utah in the roll call Mike Lee said we cast our 40 votes for Donald J Trump and his newly announced running mate JD Vance and a bunch of people that I was around delegates on the floor were like what did he what did Mike Lee just did Mike Lee just announce Donald Trump's running mate it was very bizarre I mean it was very very very strange um and so I think that felt anticlimactic but look let's be clear even if the even if the people in the arena are treated to the the the uh the the lousiest Show on Earth which I don't think they will be but I'm just making the point here this doesn't feel like a Convention David this feels like a jumpstar on an election night Victory party I've never seen a convention full of people so entirely convinced that the race is already over it's it's really that's been my overriding takeaway from being here for the last couple of days one sign of that is I've been treated very nicely here uh well we're working on that David we're we're we're gonna see uh I would say I mean I I agreee with Tim it was a giddy appearing convention not an electric one it's kind of Earth sets and crated the only thing that counted yesterday was keeping the nutballs somewhat under control and the big Trump moment they got the big Trump entrance moment that was well executed on little things just nerdy stuff I've noticed one we have had a definite increase in the number of State delegation leaders who don't blink some real wacka Doodles led by Cory leowski and the other day we were were a little careful about that two and this is just a nerd thing but the the convention world is its own subculture within the parties I don't like the the design it looks like a big shattered mirror to me there's no Central Focus to it for television these are little things just practitioner things but uh the the shattered world of a thousand screens really really bothered me visually maybe I assume that they got out of it um a bunch of Social Media stuff that they're shooting out there and maybe that's maybe that's maybe that's good enough for them I you know it's it's should be a start turn set and just finally the real test will be tonight and tomorrow night when when you start having big keynote speeches will they React to what happened to Donald Trump to move him up to a wider appeal or is it going to be the greatest hits parade that they would have planned a week ago I'm curious to see if they can adjust their Rudder or not on that point the funniest thing was Ron Johnson going up there and making an incendiary speech and then explaining that they had put the wrong speech in his teleprompter they also mixed up Ohio and Iowa on the roll call I don't know if anybody notice that but that would have been a cardinal sin back in the day so Tim tonight uh your uh your old uh uh po uh profile subject Nikki Haley uh is speaking that was a late edition and it's really interesting because she comes the day after her whole campaign was so much pitched around National security Ukraine uh standing up for NATO and she comes the day after JD Vance who is basically you know uh on the Tucker Carlson Kremlin line on this uh on the Ukraine uh on Ukraine and on foreign engagement generally um talk about what you expect from her and what her presence there means well to the second question first we've heard a lot of talk about unity in these last couple of days but I got to say ax just being here talking with delegates it feels a lot more like surrender than Unity right and and yeah Nick well witnessed by the mccal thing yeah right and and look Haley Haley towards the end of that campaign with Trump she really let it let it fly I mean she basically said at one point that he wasn't equipped to be commander and chief and was really questioning his um his capacities for the job uh and his whether he was fit for for for another term so I think again though this comes back to something that we've been flicking at throughout this entire conversation and I think maybe we should just make it really explicit in politics like in sports when you're winning everything's easy right like it's it's easy to be magnanimous it's easy to uh turn the other cheek it's easy easy to get along with people who you otherwise can't stand when you are winning and and to to the point about Chris lasv and Susie WS you know it's easy to keep a disciplined leak mostly leak free uh campaign running on all cylinders when you are winning and and they've been winning for a while from my view and the real question would be what happens if suddenly the tide turned and they and they started to feel like they were losing AB absolutely yeah yeah Trump is not then then the back door opens and the bar scene from Star Wars Cory landowski is back in charge just a quick note on Nikki if she was smart she should have gone silent and not been there to build her narrative for next time if there's a post Trump Reformation instead she's selling cheap uh which was a mistake for her now she'll be there bowing and kneeling and uh giving away what little whatever she had big error in my view yeah her her rhetorical abuse will be focused on the opposing on Biden on Biden and I think that's what it'll be about and she'll talk about the border and uh and she'll navigate around around Ukraine but but Dean there just shows you know her need her need for the attention it's it's strategically dumb in my view but she she's never been disciplined she's I've always found her to be very cynical anybody anybody who uh anybody who read uh Tim's profile of her in 2021 will not be surprised that she is there tonight though you did point out she absented herself from the convention in 2016 uh probably because she thought Trump was GNA lose yep Yeah well yeah and that's why 2016 just feels like a lifetime ago in so many ways guys because I mean you know you had John Kasich skipping that campaign you had a number of prominent Governors skipping that campaign you had uh all all all except Bob Dole all of the previous republican nominees skipping that campaign and frankly I can still remember I think I have my notebook still from that campaign I could go back through and find the interviews I would say about 50% of the delegates I spoke to at that campaign were anti-trump even if they were bound to vote for him on the first ballot they were still anti yeah so I mean so when I say surrender I I think that that's probably a a more apt way to think about this than Unity because the entire party from the top down has been has been transformed into his own image and when you see some of these delegations now some of the state delegations that I've covered over the years because I've covered the RNC pretty closely for about a decade it's a lot of new faces a lot of people I don't even I don't recognize right a lot of the Old Pros are gone you know and you look at places like Michigan the Michigan party now is is Keystone Cops and aluminum foil hats um it it it is not the highly professionalized thing it used to be and so these are this is the Trump fan club here you know this is they're the hobbyist class but they now have a lot of jobs in the apparate now I think a lot of the operatives would say quietly the apparat ain't what it used to be as far as useful in a campaign but as long as Biden's handing over the White House it doesn't matter we want to apologize to our listeners we will catch up on questions next week but because of the convention we went long on the conversation because we had a lot to cover great advantage of Tim Alberta here we wanted to take full advantage of that so Tim thank you so much for making the time on a busy week thank you so much Tim and I'll just I'm gonna I'm going to do a Tim plug here hackoo political junkies go to your local locally owned bookstore or if you have to go on Amazon uh check out his books a favorite of mine American Carnage on the front lines of Republican Civil War and the rise of Donald Trump in 2019 and the latest one the kingdom the power and the glory America Evangel in an age of extremism which explains a lot Tim Alberta buy an Alberta book you'll be smarter and happier for it and read them in the and read them in the Atlantic uh so Tim always good to be with you thank you yeah you guys you guys are too kind thanks a lot it was fun [Music] la [Music] [Applause]