hi everyone I am Natalie gner and this is both sides of the aisle I represent the political middle the productive middle and have on the productive right John dugall hey great to be with you and on the productive left we're all in the problem solving mode here today Shireen gorbani it this is true and I'm thrilled to be here and hi to our listeners yeah oh do you have a special listener I want to give a shout out to Kim who's uh someone I know who has said she's an active listener's followed us for years and we're glad you care about us Kim thanks for listening so John and Shireen oh my goodness uh we are in debate week uh we have the gorial debate a little later this week but we just had the presidential debate well the gubernatorial one when you listen to this show will have happened the day before yeah okay fair enough happen we're recording Wednesday afternoon it will happen tonight so we had the presidential debate yeah and Donald Trump and kamla Harris and where do you start with this I'm going to do it this way uh I want to know do you think they're going to do it again yeah that's that's a good one to go and I don't think they will do you think there'll be a second debate I if I were Donald Trump I would try my darness not to have a second debate and there you could make the argument that he needs uh a rebirth and that he could maybe nail it but I I don't think one happens how about you um I I think KL is going to want to have another one yeah and I think trumo is going to want to have another one yeah um but he's got to remember why he's there in the debate and he seemed to have forgotten that significantly last night uh Shireen do you think the moderators of ABC were Fair yeah I do I actually does yeah I thought this was I mean it's hard to it's hard for me to catalog in my brain every time that I felt like the moderators really failed or really succeeded but I would say this one was certainly in a a more neutral camp for me I didn't find it to be so egregious there I can think of a couple where they fully lost control that did not there were moments of that but it overall they're successful in that it doesn't lose control but did they put their finger on the scale and and John what's pointed to is that they did live factchecking and they only fact checked president Trump president Trump former president Trump but at the same time much much more egregious but I do think they lean slightly in favor of com okay well and then the other you could also argue that I I saw a tweet that said asymmetrical lying deserves asymmetrical factchecking and he's not known to speak truth and so he got hit more but there were two other stats were interesting he got more time he did about five minutes more so that's you know you want you want to take more time and then he also got the last word almost every time do you know this John you know this in the debate data I didn't know that it was every time I mean I watched most of the debate but not all of it but I did see several times it looked like he he got got the last word so so okay people could argue that uh a couple of things that stood out for me and then I'll ask you both to comment um if we were having a Thanksgiving dinner you'd wonder if you would give Trump the keys to drive home it felt like she walked him like a poodle she laid traps for him he walked right into him she had a strategy and sharen I said to John off air she is a very bright articulate woman yeah that's a hard thing to do what she just did I couldn't agree more so I I think there are a couple big takeaways that that land with me around this very issue right um um I know you've done debates I'm certain you've moderated them I've moderated I've not really done them yeah yeah that is it's interesting doing them it's a whole different Dynamic it's a whole different Dynamic and I would say the thing that becomes like very uh complicated is you're trying to always give that small opportunity that you have with this particular audience to articulate a vision a message that you have about voters about what you offer to voters she nailed it she repeatedly came back to the idea that she has she is looking to the Future she is concerned about Americans she has a vision she has plans which I we can get into that in a minute because I think the insistence that she has plans When Donald Trump has none is very irritating he has Concepts he has concept if you learn that John that was the most I love it when a concept troubling things of the debate was when he did that that oh that answer was was he's been a candidate for three consecutive times that he's been a sitting president and you're asked what's your health care plan and you say I've got Concepts right and and and the simple fact is typically candidates regardless of who you are it's Concepts because you're not quite sure what you can get through Congress and everything else like that yeah so there's a certain element where at least he was honest about the conceptual nature of whatever plans he might kind of sort of have because most talk about plans and they're not really planned he failed being the communicator and chief right Chief Communicator answer yeah cause a lot of people pause and concern go wait exactly what you said you've got so much experience and you don't really have a the plan a plan right so plans aside um there is this other component right where you're trying to either pull out or bait or uh bring into the conversation what it is that you want people to understand about your opponent and I think this is she this was a master class in that um she executed on delivering her message and on I think exposing some of the most distressing absolutely unhinged deep conspiracy theory completely online total like wacko things that Trump believes and when he is truly shouting responses especially I think the stuff that he got fact checked on with the the claim that people's pets are being eaten his response is well that's what they're saying on TV I was like Hey drunk uncle needs to go home somebody call a lift like this is is not she got her footing early and then the abortion question came and she was Off to the Races oh I I think she botched the first question she was the first question was hard I I I agree with that fair question and it was like are you better than you were four years ago and she just pivoted and dodged on that one and I know she got her footing right after that I agree the first the next question she got her fo know shireen's Point she executed on her plan and her plan from my perspective was talk about ay optimism about the future but don't get anchored too detailed in any plan and throw your opponent off base and and she trolled them and and he took it and also I think she practiced different eye expressions and facial expressions and hand movements because she knew she was always on camera theit and and and she was doing it in such a way that it was irritating to me but I think it was she was executing to her plan yeah and Trump had one objective which was Ty the Biden Administration to Harris and point out how much better things were under him than her and he didn't seem to really recognize or remember that he was supposed to do that until his closing statement which is Allison when he tried to do it rather than all along the way he kept getting distracted by other things rather than hammering his point and he had many good things he could have hammered but he let her trolling distract him I I would say it's just also difficult for Trump when really and and I will give Grace on this when you are in office at the beginning of Co you think about the job loss you think about the the life loss which we rarely ever talk about anymore but a lot of people died um you think about the chaos that we were experiencing the um tariffs that ultimately are are you know taxes that they I guess an increase of cost that Americans end up paying when you think about manufacturing jobs that he did not produce when you think about infrastructure week that he did not deliver when you think about the cost of healthcare that he did nothing on it is really hard for him I I can imagine to try to fabricate all of these Great accomplishments that he had concepts for but never delivered on so yes I think I will say this about the first question I do think that it's important too to acknowledge that while things generally are improving while we have improvements in economic indicators that I think we can largely agree on whether you think individual people are experiencing that or not matters a lot and I think kamla Harris understands that the American people do not necessarily feel like things have gotten better even though we have many indicators that we can look at from the price of gas groceries are still high but they're coming down inflation's coming down all of these things are happening she she has to acknowledge that that's happening while people still feel that difficult right and so I understand the complications but part of the dynamic from my perspective is you look at Co and Co is such an outlier doesn't matter who was president or anything like that it was not like he caused it no I mean and it just happened and it happened under his administration but if you look at the three years prior to co sure people felt largely great about what was going on economically they felt on that point that has to extend to inflation rather than saying you know inflation Biden it's your fault right covid is the vast explanation of inflation of inflation yeah and I also shortage of goods excess of money and it's a covid phenomenon it's a policy economic phenomenon that would not have happened yeah it couldn't get inflation High under tget for years and that was Trump pushing Congress even more and then Biden doubling down when he came in office okay I should what else what else stood out to you Natalie oh you know I'm I would tell our listeners if you didn't watch it go watch it this is a big moment in our nation's history you learn a ton by watching this um I was disappointed with the fearmongering in the former president the immigration bashing the name calling um I think he took an oral exam for the hardest job on the planet and he did not uh succeed uh I do think that the moderation you know leaned towards Harris but I will say that there was a someone who said it's hard to complain about the refs when you're missing your jump shot you know this was not a moderation problem this was a Donald Trump problem I want to ask John what did you think of the handshake going back to the very beginning cuz they announce and they come out and kamla walks right over the president he clearly wasn't expecting it Biden and Trump didn't shake and she went up and said kamla Harris it wasn't just a handshake it was she introduced herself cuz my understanding is they have never actually ever met yeah he didn't participate in the peaceful transfer of power but I think that was a smart move right from the beginning for her to go be that presidential yeah I agree and I thought it was weird in the first debate when that didn't happen yeah between the two of them when often times my experience is it doesn't happen but I think it was part of the strategy to get under his skin yeah cuz okay what's he going to do he's not going to want to shake hands and is this getting in his way but I still come back there were many things that he could have hammered on in terms of K especially the dynamic okay you plan to do it now but why haven't you been doing it for the last many years missing in he missed all those opportunities except for his clo most of the things he shouldn't and hardly any of the things he should all right we're GNA take a short break but we're also going to talk about local news including the gubinatorial debate which we won't have seen but we'll have thoughts about it stay tuned everybody you're listening to both sides of the aisle on Utah public radio we love to hear from listeners like you if you would like to send us a comment email [Music] bodcast gmail.com that's bodcast gmail.com thanks for listening Serene gorbani on the left John dugle on the right Natalie gner in the political Center and it's political season there's so much to talk about I just also want to call out swifties Taylor Swift does her endorsement with impeccable timing if you're just sort of thinking strategically and single cat lady yeah yeah and then if you read it um she's she's gifted everyone you know the way that she basically said you know I I think hard about these kinds of things but when I saw that I was being you know AI generated image of her was used on Trump's social media he posted it and I I figured I need to be straight with people and I didn't want to and so I thought through and I read a lot and here's what I think and you should do the same thing and by the way make sure you're registered and vote early yes she's she's got it all she's got it all so I have to ask are you Taylor swi fans so I am but I'm telling you like I know her music I re her but I will tell you I can't like name a lot of songs sure okay okay so I'm I you live in a Swifty household no no no I I couldn't name a single song that she she sings or anything so it's not like in your ecosystem though you don't not really do you know how many CDs she put out during Co or anything like that I mean she's prolific she's prolific no but what does this have to do with Kansas City Chiefs so you do know know something um so I'm not a Swifty um definitely a fan like appreciate appreciate but um I think I've disclosed previously I'm a beyon girl not you have to choose but I do and there are I think truly people who believe that this is over like they are like Taylor Swift is out interesting the impact on young voters is astronomical I am not that optimistic but I do think it's important and I think that if you pay attention to the ways in which he has bubbled up in politics certainly as a person who's concerned with lgbtq rights with um and she mentioned that in her statement in her statement with a right to choose um she hasn't been as as vocal about that but it's not a surprise per se but um kudos to her for taking the risk yeah so we also I just want to say I'm 80s rock man that's there you go that's my genre so we also had uh you know the vice president kamla mentioning that she had the endorsement of 200 Republicans who have worked for Bush and Trump and at the maybe at the top of that list in in some way is Liz Cheney who's you know made her statement of you know I'm going to vote for a Democrat for the first time in my life yeah wow yeah and well you've got three kind of Republicans you've got the Republicans who are clearly all on board with Trump you've got the Republicans who say it's it's the lesser of two evils and I'm going to pick KLA Harris in this one and then you've got the third part which is the Republicans who feel like they have no home and no candidate they can vote for and they'll ride in Dick Cheney also voting for that was the moment where I was nearly on the floor um I do not hold Dick Cheney in high esteem I do believe he's a war criminal and I was stunned to hear that he is I mean I think Liz Cheney has been moving in this direction obviously I quite a conservative but um and Trump obviously is untenable for her finding out that Dick Cheney is also voting for k Harris really had me on the flo a bridge or is it about how how his daughter Liz has been treated over the many years it is about the fact that Donald Trump is unfit to be the president of this country that's what it's about yeah okay let's talk about the gubernatorial race for just a minute uh we obviously have Spencer Cox running for re-election we have Brian King challenging him from the Democratic party and Rob leam libertarian part libertarian who made the uh cut in terms of being on the stage for the debate yeah so this week three of them are on the debate stage Jason Perry with the hle Institute of politics University Utah moderating that debate what's a question you'd like him to ask sharen oh wow so you know I actually I I would say I am consistently interested in conversations about housing and the cost of housing and I I'm guessing this will be in the mix anyway but I would just invite people to listen to the responses when you think about what who you want your elected leaders thinking about when they're trying to untangle these problems I hope you think it's you like that you're imagining that they're thinking about that first time home by our family or um you know people who would aspire to to you know break into what is really a critical piece of Building Wealth in this country um I want I want my elected leaders to be thinking about those who are aspirational to move into that you know into housing what that looks like to hear recently some of our current leaders talk about starter homes being $400,000 in this state and speaking about that in a way that it seemed to me like they were proud of that really out of touch with what actual working families who are trying to break into housing experience yeah so I would just invite people to hear when you hear these responses and answers do you feel like you can see yourself in it yeah and I'll remind people this will have aired by the time you hear us yeah but keep in mind these days you can stream these things after the fact and watch these and I we encourage all of our listeners to watch these debates this is the marketplace of ideas this is the place where you get to see them uh represent their views y John what do you what question do you want to asked or what would you highlight if you were moderating this the question I'd like him to ask is something along the lines of we talk a lot about freedom and liberty in Utah and we express this concern we don't want to become like California and yet when you look at a lot of the policies that are being promulgated today the invasive nature of government the explosive budget what are you going to do to constrain that to give more freedom and liberty to you John yeah interesting my question would be I want to know about uh gubinatorial Power and the balance of power in this state and what are you going to do to protect the power of a strong governor in this state of course I'm referring to the notion that legislators can call themselves into special session that they have only for emergencies that you know they have ideas about what they'd like to do with initiative petitions uh they now have multiple positions in state government that report to both the executive branch and the uh legislative branch which might not pass a constitutional test I'm curious what you think there John and and I just think I always I always hate when the legislators want to start acting and appointing folks on the executive side as as a member of the executive commissioner of the the Great Salt Lake commissioner has dual reporting as an example and so you know it's just it's just new and I there's pluses and minuses but I want to know if you are in the office what are you doing to keep that healthy tension that is so vital to our system yeah something like that I think that's a great question all right we've got a long form article in the Atlantic magazine I long form all them all of them are in that magazine I don't remember the author but is a piece on uh Senator Mike Lee yes it is it's gripping it talks about the evolution of Mike Lee is that a fair way to say it Shireen I think it's a yeah I think it's how he's changed over time or the or the politics of Mike Lee is what I understand I haven't read the article well and even his upbringing that his father was uh solicitor general that his father was one of I think the founding dean of the BYU law school if I'm remembering correctly but a prominent at the BYU uh law school and had a reputation for certainly being um conservative but also being inep having a bit of an independent lot of Integrity a lot of Integrity impeccable reputation I actually I love this uh story because when I was a student I introduced him on campus at a coffee and politics event it was like this neat thing that I got to introduce the solicitor general yeah but to watch him be a very much we've got to do anything we can to stop Donald Trump from becoming president he's unfit for office to the point where now um you know some think that if Trump wins he'll be the pick uh for the Attorney General yeah and certainly makes it on the list for some Supreme Court slots so you want to say anything on this one so I would say this is a good read um it is you mentioned gripping I thought um I mean I'm often embarrassed for Mike Ley um but this was particularly I just thought it was so and and I don't know that I was it unfair no I mean it's a perspective telling stories that he's telling the way that Senator Mike Lee is telling about his encounters with Trump or kind of the way that he sees himself for me I I just I could not step away from it without thinking about and I I did share it on my social media with the tagline this is this is a profile in Megalania the self-importance the self agement the sense of how important he is was nauseating to me and I had quite a theme of finding your place with a father that had accomplished so much and an older brother that had done so much been on the Utah Supreme Court and the like John you haven't read it I can't speak to the article but I think to one thing you're you're alluding to um I have seen many folks who were opposed to Trump who then accepted Trump who then have transitioned into supporting Trump who have then become what I would describe cheer cheerleaders of trump and some that you would describe as radicalized along that spectrum and I've seen that occur in in many folks and it seems to occur for many reasons I mean especially I mentioned earlier folks picking between the lesser of two evils it's not I like both these choices it's okay which one do I like more than the other one and therefore I've got to double down and help them even though I don't like these things that they did and I I find this action reprehensible when I compare the two I've got to back this person and so this and then when you're in a position of power so many people whisper in your ear and talk to you about what you can do and and Desperation and I got to when you look at the federal government it is so dysfunctional yeah that you're desperately trying to do anything to try and bring accountability to try and shrink the size to try and and and do so forth to to get what you believe is better government and clearly for Shireen that's different than what it is for me sometimes we agree but sometimes we agree but it's it's one of those challenging things I talk about how difficult it is in Utah and then it's just astronomically more but I you want to talk about challenging be a person like Senator Mike Ley who talks about carrying around his little pocket Constitution everywhere he goes and serve a president who actually has suggested in full voice that we should consider throwing out the Constitution the amount of mental gymnastics that you might have to do to serve willingly for that person is astonishing to me all right you to I and I love John by the way that that great that you made that Spectrum uh I want to save time to talk about school lunch but just briefly before we do that Shireen we have these but we're hungry social media propaganda accounts that have a Utah connection I wanted to just flag that for our listeners yeah so um recently um attorney general Merrick Garland said that his agency had seized 32 domains and indicted two Russia Nationals for carrying out a $10 million online misinformation campaign to influence voters and this is connected to this organization um an operation called tenant media of there there are six far-right um kind of trump supporters that are that are listed on their website two have connections to Utah one is Taylor Hansen who has been uh a surrogate for Phil Lyman has been kind of whipping up um activity online and and I believe in person and then the other one and I think this is tied to what we were just discussing is a individual named Benny Johnson who is the person who convinced mikele according to mikele to create the based mikele account that he uses that is really I think uh the start of a pretty big departure um around sort of how Mike Ley carried himself when he started this Twitter account he really I think became more extreme um and used language and references that I think people were surprised to see so that both of these individuals have been touched by an organization that has been specifically tied to Russian misinformation um by our attorney general is concerning yeah well something to watch for so do they know their tools of Russians or are they just dupes that are pursuing something and they don't know that they're sometimes it can be one and the same yeah okay we got to feed the children school lunch I want to I guess my point is the Russians like to do all sorts of disinformation this amount of the other some actively you can see their fingerprints on it and a lot that you don't know about behind the scenes okay I'm going to quickly jump to school lunch I want to let 30s this it does sound like our governor Cox is interested now in making school lunch uh eliminating school lunch debt a priority my understanding is that representative Clancy tried to run an appropriation to get school lunches funded in our state this is a really good thing to do for many reasons but we've talked about Minnesota which I think is doing great things one of the things that they saw was a massive decline in um absenteeism when they knew when kids knew they were going to get lunch and breakfast at school this is good policy helps keep kids in classrooms good for you Governor Cox and good for you representative Tyler Clancy you're stop at lunch it's going to move to breakfast it's going to move to Summer meals all sorts of other things like that this is not the role of if you will a state or federal government we've got disagreement at the end hey everybody thanks so much for listening this is both sides of the aisle with Shireen gbani John dugall programs produced by Anthony SCA and I'm Natalie gner thanks for listening