The Commissioner - Nick Kaldas

I think just the sheer courage not only for what they have done the work they do they've done everything we've asked of them they've worn their uniform they've gone Where Angels feed a tread they've done a whole bunch of things that normal people would not want to do or be involved in they've done everything we've asked of them that's what really struck me welcome to the podcast where we track down Australian War veterans have a chat with them and hear their stories I'm Alex Lloyd and and this is life on the line the single greatest sacrifice I've made is my family we weren't out there to take country I did feel a lot of regret friends were still getting it got to the point where you know you going to funerals quite of I Le Under Fire and that was a heavy responsibility I guess on my shoulders that I didn't want to be resilient to get itself it's horrific it's a Horror Story it should never be dressed up as if it's something glorious not what you can do for your yourself or what can you do for your country the volunteer for service was in effect to put your life on the line on 8 July 20121 the role commission into defense and Veteran suicide was established by the governor general after years of receiving testimony from veterans and other relevant Witnesses the commission's work is nearly over an interim report was delivered in August 2022 and a final report is due this September in 2024 meanwhile they've also released a book shine a light stories of trauma and tragedy hope and healing a publication to honor the lived experience of serving and EXs serving Australian Defense Force members and their families Nick CIS APM is one of the three raw Commissioners for this inquiry and is the chair of the Commissioners Nick has an extensive background of public service including time with the New South Wales police force and the United Nations the role of the Commissioners was to listen investigate and recommend actions or changes to address system issues contributing to suicide and suicidal behaviors by serving and ex-serving ADF members to say that Nick's immersion and exposure to the written and oral testimony of veterans is extensive is an understatement in this special podcast Nick will share some of his insights into what our veterans had to say Nick welcome to life on the line thanks very much for having me I appreciate it Alex Nick before we get on to some of the testimonies that you heard let's talk about the process of the raw commission itself between 8 July 2021 and 13 October 2023 a 27mon period the RO commission received 5,889 written submissions of these just over half 358 were written by people with lived experience of military service as of May 2024 845 private sessions were held with people with lived experience to share their story and there were 101 days of live hearings from 300 44 Witnesses both veterans and otherwise and you received some 230,000 documents attached to those when read out loud like that the numbers all sound impressive is this the scale you expected coming into your role as commissioner or did the quantity exceed expectations um it's pretty much what what I expected I've LED previous inquiries perhaps smaller and bigger but you have to accept that for an inquiry like this we needed to hear from everybody who had something to say not only for us to be informed about the situation but just as importantly for some people to feel that they have been heard which is really the aim of the private sessions it's not evidence we it certainly helps us form our views but we can't use it specifically but for those who had the courage and and the resilience to relive all their trauma and to come forward to talk to us I think it was just as important for them to to know and to be aware that they have been heard and that we've taken on board what they're telling us and what they've been through um I I think all inquiries generate a whole lot of paperwork but that's not a negative thing um we then had the task of sifting through and working out which bits we had to rely on and which bits we we were not able to use by and large though I have to say one of the most impressive things that we've had um in the Royal commission and that has impressed us and affected us has been the courage of those who came forward who put their hand up and said something has happened to me I want to be heard or I am a loved one of someone who has been through a dreadful experience and I want to tell you about it I think that's um the private session there's an aspect I've not heard spoken about as much in that because you can't use that testimony specifically like you said it can shape your views but you're just providing a safe cathartic space as well like that's I think a really sort of wonderful service you're providing the community in that sense yeah I I I think it was really important for those who have had you know some Dreadful experience that they've been through or maybe still going through it just to sit in the room with one of the Commissioners and a counselor and tell their story and many of them have said I'm not even asking you to do anything I just want to be heard I want someone to listen to what what has happened to me and to validate my thoughts well from going through the shiny of light book it strikes me as there have been three sort of key periods you can categorize these into um in the life of a veteran that the raw commissioning was examining experiences while in uniform the experience of transition in out of the military and experiences in life after service after that separation Point let's talk first about experiences well in uniform are there some particularly memorable witness testimonies or insights you can share I think there's really too many and I I probably wouldn't be doing anyone Justice if I try and single any out but certainly some of the experiences we've heard about of sex abuse U gender issues racism uh bullying the weaponization of the complaints system uh and the tempo of the deployments which has been absolutely punish in for some people certainly we had two War zones going in Afghanistan and Iraq in the last couple of decades um that has taken a toll on thousands of men and women who have served so it was important for us to consider the situation as you very very accurately outlined Alex um the three sets of problems certainly those when you that you experience while you're in uniform um and then later on when they're transitioning out and then their experiences dealing with the Department of Veteran Affairs and going back into Civil Society if I could just make a couple of points we heard from many people that the ADF quite rightly says to people look we need to break you down and rebuild you again as a war fighter or whatever role that you're going to have but unfortunately there isn't really a program for you know rebuilding you again as a civilian at the other end of your service and that's something that we we will be making recommendations about and the ADF has taken some significant steps in that regard um and will continue to do so hopefully but essentially what we've done is we tried to catalog a life cycle if you like of a member so we started with selection recruitment the training regime that people go through at theems the various acms and then the deployments and the operational issues and then the transition and then what happens to them afterwards we we've had a look at every aspect along the life cycle of a a man or woman who has served in the ADF have you seen a difference I suppose in talking with uh veterans about their time in defense because you're outlining some of the sort of uh problems there and the kind of the negative behaviors and negative treatments occurring while in uniform has there been a market difference to what you know a member might have gone through in the '90s versus uh the naughties or that you know have different decades shown different problems or different severity of it or has it been a real ongoing issue I I I think it's pretty much been consistent I don't think it's actually changed that much um we do need to acknowledge two things though one is that we think the vast majority of those who serve in the ADF have a positive experience and they're not broken they come out and they move on to a um a good life and and a productive life following their service um it is absolutely false to say that veterans are broken they're not broken there's just normal people who have had a bad experience that has affected them so that's really important to note um the second issue is in relation to um when people do come out um of the service and and while they're in there has been a great deal of progress in terms of recognizing these issues and trying to deal with them as you're aware probably Alex we've identified 57 inquiries that preceded us um somewhere over 700 recommend I think it's 770 odd recommendations emanating from those inquiries and even though most of them may have been ticked off no one has ever actually gone back to check whether the intent of the recommendation has been acquitted whether they've actually done what was intended to achieve so it it's one of the things we are very focused on at the moment is to make sure we're not simply the 58th inquiry making good at recommendations that everybody will Pat us on the back about and then F them um and in that regard I'm probably getting ahead of myself probably the single biggest and most important recommendation we have said we'll make and we are making is the establishment of a body that monitors these problems acts independently and reports publicly to the media the public and the government of the day so that that nothing slips through the cracks well I think it is uh the system's not set up to have the homework checked after the fact is it that you do the submission as you say everyone's happy the media cycle then moves on and then who's coming back and checking that things have actually been followed through and some a body needs to be empowered to actually enforce uh follow up and change and that's not going to be the role Commission because the role commission is going to dissolve once that report is handed in that that's exactly it now I I I obviously it'll be up to the government of the day whether they accept that recommendation or not um and I for one them sort of lying awake at night hoping and praying that they do accept a recommendation fully um the other point I just want to make Alex in relation to the recommendations that came before us and the inquiries that preceded us some of those inquiries were very significant inquiries um a couple of them were Senate inquiries and there were two reports from the defense abuse response Task Force t Dart as they call it that had very significant findings about the thousands of people who came forward about a decade ago to complain of sex and other forms of abuse that they suffered while serving now all of those inquiries probably all of them should have been a turning point at some stage where somebody said Gee we better make sure that this doesn't continue to happen it just hasn't happened and I think one of the points we've made quite often is that the public and the media have a crucial role to play in bringing these issues into sunlight and demanding answers from the government of the day or saying you know what's happening here and that hasn't happened it simply hasn't happened the scope of your recommendations also has to Encompass multiple bodies like we're talking about um you know difficulties veterans had while in service and so that's uh you know from abuse and things like that that's stuff that the ADF has to address the process of transition and I've heard veterans say this before they train us to go to war they don't train us to come home you touched on similar line of thought there that's ADF and government related and then we get to all the trauma caused in um life after service whether it's just uh slow or poor uh experiences with Department of Veterans Affairs or what other uh bodies might be involved and that's government and ESO perhaps I mean it's the scope required to address what I imagine the range of recommendations are going to be in the final report is uh immense and you'll need the government to instill a body with great power to do that to because there's so many different elements have to be addressed here we've recognized the complexity of some of the recommendations we need to make we must make um and we will allow for that we we we're going to recommend reasonable time frames and feasible recommendations that the government should be able to carry out um one of the other things we did just in line with your question is that we looked at recent previous roal commissions to see what lessons can be learned and we are certainly going to try and minimize the number of recommendations and keep it as tight as possible but there is a lot to tell we've gathered a whole lot of information that's important for the government the public and the media to hear to digest and to hopefully for the government to act on um we can't there's no shortcuts unfortunately it's going to have to be a very lengthy um report um that captures a whole lot of information and data that's landed on our laps and the people who went to the trouble and had the courage to come forward put their hand up relive their experiences and tell us all about it surely they're in titled to that obviously so look I think there will be criticism about the length of the report and whatever else we can't do anything about that we have to call it as we see that's been our approach pretty much all along from all the written and oral submissions you've taken all the testimony what does sort of the data say is a the greater pressure point is it the actual period of transition because transition could be planned it can be unexpected it can be long it could be very quick because it might be an injury or something medical or range of things is it the transition process that is a greater pressure point for veterans the commissions found or is it uh they maybe accured an injury physical or mental in service and need follow-up support and it's the DVA it's the Post Service uh experience that is uh more creating difficulty or trauma which have you found like the transition or the after math of service which has been the greater pressure point in the D you've collected my sense is that it's actually the service the time they have in service um that is often or sometimes compounded by the problems they experience in transitioning out moving onto a normal civilian life and getting their entitlements from the Department of Veteran Affairs and I have to say the Department of Veteran Affairs has been on a journey with us on in this in this space and they have made some very significant uh improvements they're trying to address the issues they have I hope and pray turned the corner and I'm looking forward to hearing that things will be much better in that space in terms of the service which I think is probably the bigger problem than the transitioning phase um I don't know what's going to happen in this Cas I obviously again hope that the ADF will take on board what we come up with they have listened to what we've we've heard in the last hearing Block in Sydney which was a few months ago the chief of Defense Force the chief of Army Navy and Air Force the secretary of the Department of DVA and the Secretary of Department of Defense and the two ministers Veteran Affairs and defense all in some form apologize for the trauma that's been caused to people and recognize the damage that has happened that people have been hurt by their their service um and I think some of those apologies were very genuine and in fact one senior officer broke down while he told the story um about how he felt about not being able to fix the problems for everyone that was under his command so I I see that as a positive I mean the the first step you have to take to fixing any problem is recognizing that there is a problem and I have to say not the DVA but certainly for the ADF perhaps that hasn't been the case I don't know that there was a genuine recognition of the magnitude of the problem and and the sheer quantity of trauma that's been caused to various people over the last 25 or 30 years um I would hope we're there now and I hope one of the things the roal commission has achieved is that we have sha a light a bright light on these problems so that they're now at a point where they're undeniable they have been denied for decades I hope they are no longer deniable uh I want to read a short extract from the book shining a light about 2 million Australians have served their country's military forces since Federation in joining they surrender many rights and Liberties they would otherwise hold as Australian citizens they do so willingly entering into a service contract with the ADF under which they agree to live their lives largely at the whim of the command structure doing what they are told living where they are told and moving when they are told they voluntarily accept the risks of service which can and do often do cause physical and mental injury even death in return they expect the ADF and their Nation to care for their Health and Welfare both during their service and after it so I think you are really handing Down The Gauntlet there to the ADF for reform and change not just apologies yeah absolutely you know they say the tone starts at the top um we hope to hear a lot more from the leadership of the ADF from the very top down um about welfare about people saying we care about people saying tell us if there's a problem and we will act we won't just sweeping under the carpet all of which has happened in the past at various points in time um I I I really hope as I said that the one thing one of the things that the Royal commission has achieved is that these problems are now front and center they're undeniable and the expectation now will be the action is taken both by the ADF the DVA is already well underway um and the government of the day I mean these 57 reports that which is the minimum number I have to say we think there are probably others that we hadn't identified um but 57 reports all of them landed on Minister's desks all of them landed on prime minister's desks all of them landed on secretaries of Department's desk um and all of them landed on senior leadership within the Australian Defense Force and yet they did not result in any marked action or Improvement and then what do you feel that can be done differently here to make sure that's not the case more media tension more pressure well I I I think there's probably two or three things um firstly um to have that body that I mentioned which will monitor the implementation of our recommendations but certainly more broadly than that look at the problems perhaps commission some research carry out their own analysis and then most importantly report publicly so that the media the public and the government get to hear exactly what's going on if that doesn't happen I hate to say it but in some way I think you know I will certainly see our effort as perhaps having been wasted to some extent um so that's the one thing that we think ought to happen obviously when the role commission finishes um the the second thing and it's just as important is a shift in culture in the DVA and certainly in this leadership with the Australian Defense Force where the leaders are not actually caring but they actually act on issues that have land on their lap that simply has not been the case they do what they need to do in terms of ticking the boxes and saying things have been fixed but in reality they haven't and I don't think I haven't really um seen anybody fully embrace the magnitude of the problem admit that the issues are there until the RO commission started um hopefully as I said we've turned the corner and then the final thing is from the political end I mean nothing happens unless the political masters of the government departments demand that something be done that simply hasn't happened there hasn't been a minister on living memory really Embrace these problems and demand answers bits and pieces have happened well-meaning well intended people have asked for answers on various issues but nobody has really kept an eye on the broader problem looked at the bigger picture looked at the longer term and made sure that things were on track and hence here we are with the RO commission do you feel your seen those early signs of change I'm going to say I'm cautiously optimistic um I I think the Royal commission has hit the market in many ways and simply highlighting these issues making them undeniable as I said I won't repeat myself but the bottom line is I I would hope that we have contributed significantly to turning the corner um I have to be cautiously optimistic I can't be pessimistic um we we've got a I mean human nature will kick in and I hope that a lot of people in very important pivotal decis positions will will really pick the ball up and run with it now that final report is uh Judah land in September so I'm there be a lot of coverage at the time and then dissecting of all the recommendations and further uh things we've talked on here today in the interim the roal commission has uh published a book which is available for free online shining a light what was the inspiration behind this book uh why create it it it's simply a another step but certainly a very important step in allowing people who have been traumatized people with lived experience whether the relatives of a serving member or a former member or whether they are a serving member or a for former member um it's a chance for them to be heard for posterity to capture their thoughts and experiences and Trauma that they've lived through and and uh you know many people as I said earlier have said to us I'm not even asking you to do anything I just want to be heard no one has listened to my story for 20 years or 25 years or whatever it may be and this is really a an important step documenting lived experience of people and giving them a chance to be heard and I just add if I may Alex that we've gone to some lengths to try and have some positive stories in there as well some stories of hope it's not all negative there are many people who have had very positive experience and have a great deal of hope that they can share with others and we've tried to highlight that as much as the traumatic experiences that people have lived and as I mentioned earlier we think up to 80% of those who have served have a positive experience and move on to a happy prosperous life when they leave I was wondering about that because obviously the nature of what the raw commission is investigating will draw uh more testimony and submissions from those who've had negative experience at one end of the system or another and that's to be expected you're examining the points of failure what needs to be uh fixed but on the other side most veterans transitioned well most have a great career all that kind of thing so I was wondering how many submissions you or testimony you heard where their transition was smooth or they felt they were supported or they have had a positive Post Service experience or they had a positive in service experience were you seeking those positives as well to kind of counter um or to sort of so show this is what a good career or a good transition looks like y certainly and we did get quite a few of those where people had a positive experience and they were happy to share it we've also heard from people who again on a positive note and on people you know Sharing Hope with others um such as equin Therapy Program canine therapy um there is's a grp group that takes veterans teaches veterans to Surf together um there's a group in in West Australia that that has veterans come in really traumatized veterans um and uh helps them build surfboards together um just really terrific um you know programs um there's also disaster relief Australia which does tremendous work in the disaster relief area um again volunteers not only from the military services but also from police and Emergency Services really positive hopeful uh activities that I think are very important to highlight and we've tried to do as much of that as we can um the other point I'd like to make is we certainly hope and pray that what we we come up with um does not in any way diminish the Australian Defense Force we what we want to see is a vibrant resilient Workforce within the Australian Defense Force that feels happy going to work every day feels valued and protected and defends all of us they are our army navy and Air Force and we would would not for a minute want to do anything that diminishes that we want them to have that really resilient Workforce um that's looked after and valued by the hierarchy and the community and then they can go forward I hope we've laid some ground workor to make that happen as we start to close out Nick I wanted to ask what struck you most about the veterans who testified what was your overall impression of them I think just the sheer courage not only for what they have done the work they do they've done everything we've asked of them they've worn their uniform they've gone where angel feed the tread they've done a whole bunch of things that normal people would not want to do or be involved in they've done everything we've asked of them that's what really struck me um by and large we I hope that we look after them better than we have in the past to repay that the fact that they have done what we have asked of them um I think there's some real issues with the deployment cycle the operational Tempo um and I would hope that you know with all these developments in in on the world stage the tensions in the region orcus all of that stuff um I just I mean human beings are the most important thing within the Australian Defense Force and that is often stated that they are the most important asset frankly they've not been treated as the most important asset thus far um they must be from now on well Nick that is uh inspiring words and you have done I think just from the outside an incredible job steering this commission over the last few years it's an incredible undertaking and I look forward to so seeing what plays out after the report lands and hopefully that these powerful recommendations you're making get enacted so thank you so much for everything you have done and you're continued advocating for reforming this space thank you thanks so much for having me Alex your role and the media's role generally is going to be absolutely crucial in what happens next so thank you for your interest and thank you for highlighting these issues thanks for having me Alex 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