North Dakota Judge Romancik rules state abortion ban is unconstitutional

she won ladies and gentlemen MRA medis is U she is the staff attorney for the Center for Reproductive Rights uh prior to joining the center she worked as uh an agency attorney in New York City Commission on human rights and uh in North Dakota they won I mean they they just fat all won they took a a case uh in North Dakota state district court and the judge struck down North Dakota's abortion ban uh Metra good to have you back on News and Views thanks for having me gold you know what nobody thought you would I'm just going to be honest with you nobody thought you were going to win this what happened um well I guess I can start by giving an overview of what happened so um so yesterday as you said a court in Bismark struck down the state's entire ban on abortion um this means that abortion will soon be legal again in North Dakota after being completely banned for over a year um and the judge concluded in the case that the nor Dakota Constitution guarantees each individual the fundamental right to procreative autonomy which means that people get to make their own decisions about issues related to their reproductive Health without having the government tell them what to do um which you know it's I think not that radical of a proposition that uh when we're talking about someone's health and when their health and safety and life is at risk and when we're talking about something as intimate as how people start and grow their families that that would be something something that is protected by the fundamental rights that are enshrined in the State Constitution and so that's you know exactly what judge ronic and bis Mark saw and that's why he ruled the way that he did so C can I ask you this is this something that you see the opportunity to to win in a lot of these red States I mean you know a lot of these judges come they come from the red State they reflect what that state is you know I I guess what I'm saying is as an organization are are you finding success in States I mean it's one thing to to talk about the rights and do what you're doing but that isn't always how our court system works right um yeah I will say in some states we have had you know success with very similar arguments um or rather involving very similar constitutional protections and I think it is kind of this idea of what is the government's role in telling people and telling doctors what Health Care they can provide and then determining you know what care people are entitled to and what we're seeing now um after row was overturned is that in some states that have abortion banss people are not able to get care even in medical emergencies and you hear stories of people who are being turned away from emergency rooms or told that they have to wait to get sicker in order to qualify for an exception under the state's abortion ban I think a lot of people are finding that that doesn't fit right with them and that you you know I don't think a lot of people think that um pregnant people should be denied Healthcare when they are experiencing those kind of serious conditions and that really is the decision that people should be able to make and that doctors should be able to decide when a person needs that care based on their own training and judgment you know in all my years uh of serving in the state senate and and being here as a talk show host and being allowed to give commentary I've said time and time again that the individual who believe in that right for women are the majority they are the majority in the country they they just it's it's an issue of why would they argue it when it was the law of the land and so why get into such a heated philosophical debate when you already have the right and so now when when Ro was overturned that completely changed now it's it's their time to step up and express their concern and you're seeing it both on a political scale through our judicial system in in many ways Metra what you're seeing is the the power of the people to express their point when they never really did before yeah I think that's absolutely right um and I think a lot of people just kind of took for granted that these rights existed and particularly when we're talking about you know some of the more dangerous Healthcare conditions I don't think our I think a lot of people really took it for granted that if you're pregnant and something bad happens you know your membranes rupture prei PR pre viability or something and you call up your doctor you go to your hospital they're going to be able to help you and people are now seeing that oh no they were only doing that before because there was a right to abortion enshrined and in states that have taken that right away you might not be able to get that care and I do think it's really making people realize that you know maybe it's not something they thought so much about before but it's definitely something that is now more front of Mind particularly for people who um you know are worried that that's going to be a situation that they or their family members could find themselves in I I'm curious how the approach that that you and your organization are taking uh the Center for Reproductive Rights are are taking when it comes to the whole philosophy of what we're talking about whether or not a woman has the right to choose because really the the very argument that's being made against that right is not to me a state right or not and yet this has all been thrust back in 50 different arguments and so I I go back to the red state blue State I mean we can talk about that Metra all day long but but the truth is if you truly believe in the fact that a woman doesn't have that right then I don't understand how you can be okay with one state saying she does and another saying she doesn't yeah you know I think even if in states where there might not be a recognized constitutional right for a woman to make a decision about whether to get an abortion you know almost every state and possibly every state although I haven't read every state constitution but usually there's some protection for a person's life at least and so part of what we're doing in some states that you know have not recognized the right to abortion is arguing okay at least you have these protections for life at least there are some situations where pregnancy is lifethreatening and people need to be able to get abortions in those situations and so you know trying to kind of recognize that there are situations where abortion needs to be accessible and people may you know may not think that there is a right to abortion in all circumstances but there are certainly at least some situations where state constitutions need to be protecting this right um under an individual's right to life and safety so what's the next step if the Supreme Court gives North Dakota a stay uh yeah so I guess the next step as you indicated is the state can appeal to the North Dakota Supreme Court they could say the injunction they could choose to hear the appeal um My Hope Is they would not stay the injunction particularly since you know this North Dakota Supreme Court or the nor North Dakota Supreme Court a year and a half ago just had another decision on abortion signing there is a right to get an abortion in at least some circumstances um so we could be arguing this before the North Dakota Supreme Court probably some time in early 202 5 there's also a new legislative session coming up so we may see some new bills targeting abortion during that session um but you know the state courts have been really clear that having a total ban on abortion violates North Dakota Constitution so whatever happens next I'm hopeful that the state will listen and try to comply with the decisions that we have here in respect to the fundamental rights that pregnant people have under state law Metra people are going to ask me this and so I'll ask you so that you can just say it I mean who paid you who how do you fund the Center for Reproductive Rights so we are a nonprofit organization um and so I um you know we get donations um and various other funding uh I'm not expert at all of that but yeah we we're a nonprofit yeah I I mean I just people are going to feel and they're going to say that you're bought off this and that I know how some of my listeners are going to call in and I just wanted to get an opportunity to point out your you're a nonprofit organization um have decisions come down in other states or are you still awaiting some of them there in other words uh is nor Dakota one of the last to make a ruling on this so we have cases we've filed after this one in North Dakota where we're still waiting for decisions um we actually have cases in Idaho and Tennessee that we filed after this where it's kind of involving some similar circumstances um so it's not the last um and hopefully we can continue to build on this great victory in North Dakota and hopefully we will see more States recognizing that pregnant people have fundamental rights to make these Health Care decisions for themselves well this was national news I mean it got picked up on the wire and and a lot of people talking about it uh what's in in the community that you live in in terms of uh the legal Scholars I mean what what is their impression on of this yeah I mean as you said it's national news I think um I think people are really excited to see this is happening um and you know I think it's a great win and so we talked mostly about the fundamental rights piece but another argument that we made that the court also cited with us on is around the vagueness in the law and so I guess I just want to briefly highlight that the way some of these exceptions are written including North Dakota's uh they are so confusing as to when they apply and so doctors don't know when a patient comes in what the exception actually means and I'm really excited that we want on that claim because I think that is really a big problem nationally that the exceptions are you know written by people who don't have to apply them and who don't know medicine and often when it comes time to apply them the exception doesn't actually provide enough flexibility to doctors to be able to provide their health care in the way that they've been trained to do so I'm really hopeful that that is something that you know gives cuse to other state legislators when they're drafting these bills to think about you know are you giving doctors enough flexibility and enough guidance to know what the exceptions to the law are well and and I asked that previous question poorly I guess what I was kind of building towards was does does one state ruling affect the other as though there was some level of precedent um yeah so yes and no I think a lot of state constitutions were influenced by each other um so you know North Dakota's Constitution 1889 has some similar Provisions to things you see in other state constitutions and so certainly courts do sometimes look at well if the North Dakota courts said this means one thing then maybe it means the same thing in our constitution so that's definitely a thing that happens it's not binding on any other courts in other states if because if they had a separate Constitution they could go another way but certainly if you know if they all have the same source that they looked to to come up with these protections um that certainly is something that can influence courts in other states MRA metada thank you so much uh for your time I I'm not going to lie to you I I thought that this was a great argument to make I just didn't think you'd win you know and so we'll see where this goes with the Supreme Court knowing n Dakota the way I do I just I I had a hard time imagining that there would be a recognition of how vague this law was and you know it certainly will be one of the major issues next legislative session again no no question about that thank you for joining us on News and Views thank you so much