Phoenix Business RadioX

broadcasting live from the business radio ex studios in Phoenix Arizona it's time for Phoenix business radio spotlighting the city's best businesses and the people who lead [Music] them hello and welcome to Phoenix Business Radio Broadcasting live from the Max 6 entrepreneurial center right here in Tempe Arizona where we help build businesses and connect you with the right people and I love LinkedIn for that very reason I believe if I'm not mistaken although I know that there is somebody at Arizona Technology Council that we have to thank for today's conversation also LinkedIn today we are fortunate to spend some time with Blackstar orbital co-founder and CEO Christopher Janet welcome to the studio thank you very much I'm happy to be here so thrilled to have you and Karen we have Karen thank I think at the Arizona Technology Council for suggesting that we have this conversation today we have a long list of people that we need to thank uh for making this happen folks from the Arizona uh the the coming Arizona space commission uh the Arizona Commerce Authority uh we have uh Karen mcvine and Devin and of course we have our mutual colleague uh Stephen at the Arizona Technology Council uh they've been fantastic advocates for our company ever since we announced last year that we will be moving to Arizona and we're happy to begin excellent and where are you located right now um we have offices about 15 minutes outside the Kennedy Space Center in Titusville Florida however majority of our operation what we're getting spun up right now is down in Sierra Vista out at the airport so good and when can we expect you to be in Arizona functioning and and rolling from that perspective well you'll be really happy to hear this uh we're ready now our CTO is recently relocated down to Sierra Vista and we're in the process of interviewing our first set of Staff members will'll be um at full capacity for that location we're looking at about 50 staff uh by 2026 so good and why sier Vista well sier Vista is a I guess you can say is the triangulation of a three specific things the three PS we call it people proximity and potential the people there well you got the fort so you have your signals intelligence professionals your cyber Security Professionals um Fort watuka itself their moniker is from swords to satellites so with Blackstar orbital um as we'll learn today we have a little bit of both uh proximity uh they have a range that extends from basically 29 Palms in California all the way to New Mexico so as far as being able to do flight tests that are not overpopulated areas for a small space plane uh we have that ability and potential we believe that the potential for the State of Arizona is critical uh for the future of Aerospace and defense in this country um as we're seeing uh orbits becoming highly contested and hotly congested what that means is uh there's more people up there there's more people in the forms of companies um National entities such as the Chinese and the Russians with their systems and ultimately we see that Arizona can be the thriving Hub uh for this next generation of space companies we could end the conversation there we won't but we could that is exactly what Steve Zer and I continue to have a conversation with with all the guests we've had on when we specifically talk about what a hotbed Arizona is and for all the reasons why it makes sense to be here so thank you for accentuating that that's perfect so cheers yeah let's back up the train uh I would like to First hear who is Blackstar orbital uh and then I want to hear about your background absolutely uh Black Star orbital who are we we are redefining what a satellite can do by redefining what a satellite is now how exactly do we plan on doing that we're developing reusable spacecraft which launch and operate operate like a traditional satellite payload on your normal rocket whether it's a Jim can Trails a Daytona rocket or Elon musk's Falcon 9 and then it lands like a space plane and the interesting thing about that is these space planes are less than a thousand kilograms which means we could probably fit one on this table in front of you right now this translates into having more vehicles that can fly up there and ultimately when the mission is complete it can return home now the question is why a reusable satellite um well not a whole lot of people know this 20% of satellites when they arrive in space according to a 2016 study were Dead on Arrival typically that can be in the form of them having valves that don't work I'm sure we've all heard if we're watching space news or Starliner oftentimes a valve can go bad very easily and I could spend an entire radio interview just talking about rocket fuels and their interaction with humid air inside a fuel tank but we're not going to go there um Blackstar orbital is there to really meet those marketing those Market needs which have been growing a growing presence in the industry for the past several years this is a product that is not seeking the customer in many ways the customers have sought us out and sought out this particular product because of the fact that when this mission is done propellant is for example five years that's five years on orbit a satellite runs out of propellant that's essentially a ballistic piece of space trash we're avoiding that entirely by bringing these back home when mission is complete to be remodified or rep refurbished to fly again wow I as I was reading and preparing for today's conversation I was blown away with uh the opportunity what's happening uh the longevity for what you're doing and then also very curious about you and your career specifically and of course I read a little bit about that as well but I love for you to share with us tell us uh about your background and then I want to hear you know how how this makes sense for you right now and why you're the right person absolutely um well I guess we can start at the beginning um yeah I've been a rocket uh Enthusiast and space Enthusiast my entire life I remember uh my mom for example she used to work for ABC News and she had the Press passes for the original space shuttle had another parent who served their country in the intelligence community so um I've always been around um you know Innovative people Innovative thinkers um I joined the Air Force in 2006 to serve my country I was there from 2006 to 2012 during that time um we became very well acquainted with the advantages of technology specifically in Aerospace which can be used to either win a war like we did in uh Iraq for example and during the global war on terrorism as well as for humanitarian purposes in Japan we can talk a little bit about my experience in Japan later um but ultimately uh technology is a double-edged sword so after I got out of the military um I started a tech festival with a few colleagues of mine in Los Angeles uh we took over La Center Studios on December 2 1st 2012 which of course just like today is an auspicious date and uh we had everybody there we had Academy award-winning artists uh for example um we had an individual Kevin Mack who won the Oscar for What Dreams May Come and I got to go over to his house in Santa Monica and yes those things are as heavy as they look um we had so we had artists there we had technologists there we had folks from the life extension Technologies Aubrey de uh who was on the cover of Time magazine for his research uh we had other folks from the space world as well so you long story short we had a large group of people from all these different branches in the same space and then there was the AI people and that was very interesting one we had an individual named Ben goertzel out there uh Ben was the individual who coined the term artificial general intelligence now bear in mind this was back in 2012 before AI was even really a thing for most people you had uh folks from the go Community the go clubs in San Jose who were you know talking about trying to bring people on board those were the that was the team members that several years later created alphago so really you know understanding that you know good Technologies are often born out of a Confluence a Nexus point of many different places ultimately led me to uh get connected with a company called Ripple Aerospace as their chief engineer we were working on Ocean launched Rockets So they were the ones who actually paid me to move down to Florida um at that time I got connected with uh my future co-founder and CTO Kit Carson he was managing his engineering Contracting firm for about 17 years 15 years by that point I maybe a little further back was 2018 um we ended up um you know working on some Next Generation versions of this ocean launch system uh we successfully performed the first Open Water orientation of a rocket without a Launchpad in 34 years I've never heard of that um you know a really interesting person um that if any of your listeners are interested in the history of rocketry they should research Bob Truax Robert Truax uh was one of the original uh US Navy guys uh from our side of Operation Paperclip who ended up briefing folks like wner Von Brun and bringing them into the NASA fold but it gets better in the 1950s he came up with a concept that you can launch an rocket directly out of the ocean so they modified I believe they were the um the Thor missiles um they ended up doing that now there's this really interesting report that he wrote in 1962 detailing a super heavy lift rocket made out of stainless steel where we heard that before you know that's exactly what um folks like Elon Musk on the Starship program did so um got connected to Ripple uh that project ran its course we successfully completed it um from there I actually got picked up by SpaceX you know since we on the topic um I worked briefly on the Falcon heavy program to get Starman up also did a few other things uh involving the pad rebuild of uh of launch complex 40 that was a very interesting one because about I want to say this time in 2016 they're the ones who had that pad anomaly for Amos 6 uh so we ended up finishing that I went over to do a the Starman launch then I went into a company called United Frontiers which in many ways was the was the precursor of black star so after the Ripple project ended um I got connected with um my mentor or one of my mentors a man named Colonel Terry vers Terry verts is the former International Space Station commander who uh installed the Koopa if you're familiar with Koopa on the ISS that was his him and his team uh he was also a shuttle pilot flew on the soyes and so he had a significant space flight history during a conversation about where we should take the social launch technology next uh he recommended that we investigate hypersonics from there we did a whole trade study on a concept called Merit time area denial so long story short protecting a patch of ocean from somebody else grabbing it we can all you know imagine who that might be if we're just watching the news right and um that gained some significant traction so United Frontiers we ended up raising $2 million right before covid happened and from that project really was born black star so um there was still some time between that this was a concept that was still in stealth in fact we were in stealth from 2018 to 20123 um so after uh you know we got through and we survived covid I went back to SpaceX not a bad place to land you know during the co economy right um and I got put on the Starship program I ended up working on the thermal Protection Team out in Cape Canaveral and we were part of the process of training things like the robots to work on making sure we get more accurate cuts of the heat shield tiles perfecting the mixes of the ablative paint that are sprayed on it um after they've been baked and you know unfortunately I can't get into the uh the process by which a heat shield tile is made um but it's very interesting and it they they essentially used the space shuttle tile technology as well as the engineers who worked on that to remodel and rebuild what would become this phenomenal system on Starship for these hexagonal tiles so that that um ultimately went for a few probably want to say about six months and then my third child was born and I really wanted a chance to see him because at SpaceX it's often known that we're working and it's no exaggeration we're working 60 to 80 hours a week because it's something we believe in um so at that point I accepted the role as a engineer at Nasa Kennedy Space Center on the Caple 2 project about a year later later I was made the uh lead engineer for the hyper gool program hypergolic propellants are uh rocket fuels that detonate or EXP explode on contact so um propellants like hydrazine nitrogen tetroxide and all its assorted flavors like mon 3 mon 5 Etc so um we ended up doing this uh program there uh for a number of years we supported Multiple Man space flights from the uh crew Dragon to inspiration 4 also some of the Moon Landers in um intuitive machines one the Nova sealander um those also used hyper gools on board as well so uh we did that for about almost four years and then um I get a call one day in February um essentially long story short that uh this little project we were doing with black star got funded and um yeah I guess um that's my background and how we how this led up to it um I grew up in Virginia however I'm an ASU graduate from the IRA a Fulton School in applied science and uh it's just so great to be back in Tempe for example this is a great town um there's a fantastic uh Community uh within both the ASU ecosystem and the UA ecosystem that heavily supports Innovative Technologies and uh I I really believe they love when some of their kind comes back you know with these new ideas you know interested in working with them so we're looking forward to uh breaking some new ground with both universities uh here in the near future so good and you served uh for the US Air Force that's right for how long uh six and a half years I was uh stationed in uh Travis Air Force Base California working on the KC t0s for air Mobility command uh which was really interesting at the time my CTO was working in designing uh the KC 46 which would ultimately replace the kc1 and that was happening at the same time unbeknownst to each other so um you know we did the program if you want to see the ky10 they're slowly making their way to the AOG right now where they will be put on mothball until somebody wants them or until they're you know ultimately Salvage for parts which is a real Shame by the way like driving between here and Tucson and seeing my old Birds because pretty sure if I went up there I could recognize a couple of serial numbers and uh for any aircraft maintainers from the Air Force listening uh you always have the affinity for a couple your serial numbers uh one that I don't think any we have any love loss for would be uh 1950 because that was the one they tried to do a glass cockpit install and then the uh contractor lost the funding so in a uh in a mad rush they just tried to put all the original instruments back in it never worked quite my goodness never worked quite right but uh you know I think one of those moments also inspired me to be an engineer I was that's that's where I was headed so thank you for cleaning that up and and bringing us to the direct path so it's at that point in your your Air Force time or your career that you're thinking engineering is it for me it had you hadn't landed there previously um always wanted to be one I also realized that um I could get a great undergraduate experience from joining the military so a lot of people you know they don't quite know what they want to do so they'll go to college and they'll kind of figure it out maybe get put in the wrong uh degree program in the process and um yeah I realized that technology is where I wanted to go so the the top three that I had was space Ops Intel and avionics and luckily I got one of those three which was really great um I strongly believe that as an avionics technician that set me on the course to become a systems engineer the beautiful thing about systems engineering and you can quote me on this systems Engineers are the mbas of the future we understand how all the various discrete parts of an organization works of an engineering team works of really any without sounding redundant any complex system right being able to map out those connections and then Orchestra an expect or desired outcome based on your requirements is critical and um you know I was inspired by a lot of different people you know to pursue um systems engineering um probably one of the original ones was a Buckminster Fuller of all people uh I remember reading uh the operator's manual for spaceship earth um which I kept in a cargo pocket while living in Tokyo Japan where I was stationed for two years and you know I'd be on the uh the metro subway just reading this book just you know really Blown Away by the concept that if we see the Earth as an integral holistic system uh we can efficiently um mitigate any risks to it and then optimize its functions for the betterment of everybody so again you know while I was in the military thinking about you know what is technology at its core what is it really is it an extension of the human mind is an extension of the human hand what is this thing that we're dealing with uh because it really has taken on a life of its own and we're seeing that with artificial intelligence right now um so as far as you know when I wanted to become an engineer I remember watching the the right stuff when I was in third grade and then ultimately being able to stand at those same launchpads years later as an adult it really felt like things were coming full circle for me my goodness and you're and you just look so young you've covered a lot of a lot of ground in this time and three pits that's right uh how old is the oldest 14 actually 14 I've got a 17-year-old at home oh there you go yeah my older two are out of the house and been and on their own for a while uh and he my son wants to be an engineer so I'm these are this is one of those interviews and it doesn't happen often that it feels fitting to say to my son you need to listen to the interview but this will be one of those so thank you for that Chris cheers uh so um you also received the humanitarian service medal that's right can you tell us a little bit about in 2011 and it has to do with the earthquake that does hold on I'm gonna need some water for this one it's a it's a bit heavy um standby yeah so on uh March 11th 2011 for those of you who might not know they uh Northern Japan suffered a 9 I believe it was a 9.3 earthquake I'd have to check but it was a 9.0 or above um it happened um few miles off the coast of the tohoku region um ultimately 28,000 people lost their lives um I was at the time we had just completed an exercise and I had basically some free time and I had ended up volunteering to give some PT tests in an earlier life and I'm 38 but you know when I was like at a 20 five-year-old you know spry young lad um they ended up making me a PTL where you know I'd stand there and you know give time people as they ran track so we did that for a few hours and then I was done with my day finish an exercise finished the PTL stuff had the rest you know going into a long weekend essentially uh so I go to lay down to take a nap about five minutes later everything starts shaking it was an earthquake now I'm no stranger to earthquakes I was living in Northern California in 1989 in Gilroy that was not far from that epicenter so I immediately you know kind of knew what was going on um so we rushed outside uh me and a couple of friends of mine you know we didn't know how bad it was it was only like a six-pointer where we were uh in Western Tokyo you were going out there and then um somebody mentions that the airports are getting shut down oh that's weird better go upstairs and just you know check the feed real quick and as I'm watching the live camera footage we're watching the tsunami sweep over the Japanese coasts and then they say that Narita Airport and Sendai Airport have shut down now okay how many commercial jets are flying over the Pacific right now trying to land in Japan from the United States how about from other countries know this is something that can be Series so I throw back on my uniform and I knew what was going on and I run that quarter mile to the 730th AMS which is uh not far from us we had the dorms you know so it's only about a quarter mile less than a half mile down the road I run there I turn that corner just as I watched the first commercial plane landing and um so um my uh my uh uh Sergeant Sergeant gatel happens to be driving a launch truck a launch truck is just those white box trucks that you see on construction sites the troops sit in the back and then we get taken to our Jets to perform any sort of Maintenance action there might be and um he looks at me I look at him and he just says get in because we knew what was happening uh we spent the next I think 12 hours uh catching about two dozen commercial Jets something that we' never really done we work on we work we work on Military sorties catching Delta km everybody now there's a problem we have civilians on board and they have not gone through customs and they're on a military base so all but one of the planes we ended up bringing back up so we refueled them several hours later they found an alternate you know Landing site and they were able to take off except for one Delta Airliner um Americans on board um they were taken to the PA terminal and they were they were you know taking care of for the night we got them back out there and um I ended up uh being in I think stars and stri magazine for this one there's a beautiful picture of me and a colleague standing under the wing of this Delta Airliner and there's this beautiful looming picture of Mount Fuji in the background so um we ended up getting highlighted for that but that was just the beginning of what was a three-month ordeal then the um nuclear reactors started going and that's when things took a different turn at that point it became not just a cleanup operation it became a contingency operation so um we ended up being on the team uh that ended that got the water turbines delivered to the base and me and my colleagues because it happened on our shift that day were the ones who loaded up the water turbines to bring to Sendai Province to put out the Meltdown um and it was just moments like that I I recall you know a good friend and colleague of mine Nicholas Carlo um he was the one who'd stand out there he'd have to wear a full radiation suit take a Geer counter to the Jet and then give me a thumbs up because then I'd be able to approach a jet so there about four months of all that happening and um ultimately again going back to the recurring them theme technology being a double-edged sword you have you know the most efficient energy producing system that we have at our you know available you know at our hands right now nuclear power and you know then you're faced with the radically destructive power when things go wrong and you know in the case of this one you know a lot of people and Germany made the mistake in my opinion of shutting down their nuclear reactors in response because ultimately it wasn't the nuclear reactors that were in error it was human error it was a failure of proper civil engineering planning if you have diesel generators that are air breathing and they're not protected and they're right by the coast and it is no secret in Japan that it is a seismically active Zone then it's just a matter of time before your beneficial technology becomes a hazardous technology so I was doing a lot of thinking during that time as that was going on I was also reading a great book called abundance by Peter D amandes and um again just um highlighting how technology can make the future a better place through not just the careful application but the radically Abundant application uh you know just uh think economies of scale a life-saving widget for example if you only build one will be one of the most expensive things in the world but if you can get that mass produced you get that out there to a lot more hands it becomes ubiquitous suddenly not only do you have a beneficial technology you have a um you have you have a a technology that acoss the board um beyond what maybe the original inventors even thought you know can benefit people's lives so there's a lot of those recurring themes happening so right after I got out of the Air Force I think it was a matter of weeks I was on a plane to Los Angeles doing this conference with a few of my colleagues and uh yeah it just all kind of uh you know snowballed from there at that from that point forward I was uh involved with building technology companies and uh finding you know ways to innovate and better people's lives while having fun and doing something cool in the process that's a lot in a little bit of period of time to be of service and be a servant leader in that way right how would you say that these humanitarian experiences uh and thinking on your feet like that help you lead black orbital or are you seeing that there's a connection there there definitely is I would say that um you know at that period of my time uh being an enlisted member I was observing a lot of uh the leadership I was observing the good leaders and the bad leaders you know I mentioned Sergeant gatel by name I can remember remember him very clearly because he was a good leader there's other sergeants who I worked for for probably much longer periods of time who weren't and it's difficult to even recall who they were because there's no I mean besides the viable lessons that one can learn and I could think of I'm not going to obviously name their names but I could think of both the good and the bad so I mean being in the military in many ways uh gives you the full spectrum uh exposure uh to that environment in a live environment you're doing this you know to kids in their early 20s which is amazing uh the amount of responsibility that we give our average service member who's 19 years old is incredible and I would say 99.9% of the time you know they're meeting or exceeding those expectations and um you know that's that one benefits I think of an all all volunteer military is it does attract people who have that desire to both better themselves and better everybody around them but as far as leadership is concerned um I learned almost everything from that even my commanders who I keep in touch with you know via social media this day um I love asking them questions even if it's years later you about you know what was their experience you know what was some of the challenges that they were facing and this is the challenge I'm facing what do you think I should do and um yeah I'd say just you know seek mentorship wherever you can I was just going to ask how do you translate um everything that you've learned in the way you show up to how for aspiring leaders absolutely spec specifically in Aerospace what would you recommend they do and and would be that find those mentors find those folks that's right yeah cultivate competency um it only comes in time and uh from competenc you will naturally build intuition and that's the other thing that I think a lot of people miss you have emotional intelligence you have obviously you know classic intelligence you know learning things you know you know books extrapolating limited sets of data and then you have intuition and that's one that I don't believe we cultivate enough of because oftentimes you know there's thousands of sub routines going on in the human mind that we're not even aware of I think Malcolm Gladwell actually talks about that in his book blink is that you can cultivate the ability to make snap judgments that are accurate because you've built the right reference in your mind to then you know solve whatever problems are in front of you you and I were talking about the use of AI and how important the prompts are right uh similar to the way in which we think yes we have to be asking ourselves the right set of questions and conditioning ourselves for the right answers your outputs are only as good as your inputs and that's why the inputs that we're giving with Blackstar oral I think is really critical you know we're building this you know Advanced High Performance Small sack class vehicle less than a th000 kilg and uh it's a it's essentially is a common core spacecraft on on a um modular uh payload Bay what do I mean by that if you're thinking those lifting body designs or you're thinking the space shutt space shuttle was a lifting body it had a glide ratio that basically was a little bit better than a brick um we can do better than that because we have much more aerodynamic cross-section we're a lot smaller uh being able to fly in these different modalities is critical uh so everything you know all those pieces of the puzzle that that web really does come together uh through the experience that we've been having with Blackstar um obviously um we have you know long backgrounds as Aerospace professionals Kit Carson he's been having his engineering Contracting firms for almost two decades we have Sean Hollis who's formerly on the Orion program in emis uh he was also he has also hold a SE Suite position in sever different companies um everybody who we've worked with including the professors our mentors astrophysicists certified ethical hackers yes th those are a thing um and the like orbital Warfare engineers everybody's bringing their experience to the table to ultimately refine what is a solid concept the idea that we can get rid of single use satellites you know we mentioned the earthquake and tsunami one thing that is still an ongoing issue is the uh I believe it's the flatsome and the Jets some they call it of all the um of all the broken houses of all the pieces of cars of all the plastic that was pulled out of the island and dumped in the ocean you know at when the tsunami is receded you know we have a problem 10,000 times if not a 100 thousand times bigger and that's the Great Pacific Garbage Patch so the idea that we should be also implementing sustainability principles into our program really needs to be baked in the beginning if you want to be an efficient 21st century company space sustainability is a thing um we would like people to think about uh traditional satellite it's the same way they do single use straws or other you know disposable you know things like this plastic bottle right here which yeah you could recycle it but ultimately it's still made of plastic right and um you're taking some of those principles and applying it where it's really needed most and that's on the high Frontier the idea that where're we can just send a satellite up and discard it and it's nobody's problem it's no longer the case now when a satellite is discarded it's everybody's problem and that's the issue that we're currently facing you have some great you have some great thought leaders um Mara ja to mind Professor out of the University of Austin he's also working with a company called Privateer space I believe they're funded by Steve wnac and uh he's been a ENT supporter of the idea that we really need to have a sustainability culture in space and uh you know in many ways black star orbital is answering that call and we are um designing our systems in such a way that they operate and generate like aircraft sorties after that five-year mission is done after the propellant to keep the vehicle you know steered and pointed in the right direction is finished we can refuel it on orbit with one our colleagues like at orbit Fab or we can bring it home technology after five years often times can change things can get smaller things can get more efficient uh so that allows us to maybe put that updated camera in it and then fly it back up because one thing we're finding is a you know a major need for more Earth observation birds and of course you know on the topic of double-edged Swords if you have an earth observation asset you also have an intelligent surveillance reconnaissance asset and what is an ISR asset that's a spy plane that's your spy satellite um if you you can take a picture with high resolution you can identify the next mineral vein for you know a platinum company that's looking for platinums or Rare Earth minerals or you can identify that um that enemy missile battery behind you know the lines somewhere you know out in Eastern Europe for example so really it's um you're trying to have this uh dual use platform uh we love the idea that we're really designing a platform and not a product in so far as it's up to the customers to determine what exactly goes on it goodness you'd think that I'd shut off my phone before our interview that's okay we'll fix it in post we're gonna go I was woring it was me don't worry no no we both looked at each other my apologies wow that's unusual for me to have done that it's okay it's just it's just my NSA Handler checking on me don't worry about it exactly I really didn't think that I shut it off okay so we will clean that up uh I have so many questions let's and I'm looking at this right from a business lens because that's who the majority of our our viewers and listeners are people always love to hear like some what are some of the challenges and some of the uh the unique issues that you came up against or still maybe are encountering as you're developing reusable space cap and Hypersonic vehicle I mean there's got to be a boatload of things that you're that that you can help us understand what it's like to be on the Forefront of all this well um I think um everybody's heard this that uh the phrase space is hard space is also a capital intensive process what do you mean by space is hard I don't know that phrase oh yeah it's um so if you've ever seen a lot of these launch companies they oftentimes have to blow up the Rockets a few times before they actually get to orbit excuse me and I find that you know that um or that we found that uh the phrase space is hard really kind of boils down how intense and how difficult it is to do aerospace engineering especially when you have to combine it to the business aspect because take a company like astrospace you know they 21 you know they raised the speack had you know a billion dollars in pocket and then they had five anomalies on their launches so what happens when you're having trouble paying for number six even when you had the capital at hand you still have to deal with the engineering you have to manage your talent and you have to ultimately fly something so um you know space is hard and space is also very Capital intensive so when it comes to Blackstar right now uh outside of raising funding and we are funded we have a fantastic partner with a CT Holdings Incorporated um we're C ly speaking of several other VCS right now a majority of our funding is also coming from uh these small business Innovation research grants Partnerships with uh the US Department of Defense namely the space force to pay and to subsidize uh some of the research involved and um you know it's a small amount of money but once you go down that path I mean there's a company called inversion space right now they just want I believe a um $60 million straty which is a strategic funding increase for essentially what is a small returnable Space Capsule so just so we're doing small returnable space planes the few companies that started a couple of years before we did we're looking at reusable commercial space capsules and those have advantages and limitations great Advantage modular cargo you can bring things you know down from the commercial space stations that are being built um disadvantage you have to recover it it can't come to you so um black star we like to boast that we can land at any one of the 14,000 runways worldwide longer than 5,000 ft contingent on them having a landing license and we can talk about crer Vistas airport airport in a little bit um but with a capsule you have to go you know out into the middle of Utah or you have to go out into the middle of the ocean in order to ultimately recover it so uh there's a few gaps that they have to close um but it's also a compelling case showing that there is a business model for down Mass opportunities so right now um we can't say too much but we've been talking to say researchers involved that M Memorial slone ketering uh looking to do the next uh cancer compound to protect patients from radiation that in entally could also protect astronauts from radiation so you know often times for example cancer you know the the Cure can be almost as dangerous as the disease itself we'd love to find a way to Bridge and close those gaps between you know the pressing issues we face on Earth and you know the pressing issues we're faced in space because ultimately if you can solve for one you might be able to solve for the other and we've seen that also I mean exemplified by what's out in Arizona the biosphere project you know a lot of people you know have their own opinions of biosphere too at the end of the day it got everybody thinking about Earth is an integrated holistic system so we can better understand how to manage and mitigate it the idea that these different biomes are connected I think for a lot of people was a foreign concept until they showed how they all interact in the same integral space and you know those guys went on to do Paragon space you know the the life the life support systems company down in Tucson I believe two of their original co-founders went off to do a space perspective and worldview um so I mean again it's the idea that and maybe it's just as systems engineer I see these complex discreet variables maybe aren't so discreet after all since they're all really connected it's just a very Broad and detailed story to tell and I'm hoping that there's more people out there who will be willing to tell a story because I think they'll find that there's a lot of relevant things that even if you're not in the space industry you know means something to you on a personal level you know space is a lot closer than people think and I'm not just referring to distance let's try going a day without our GPS I guarantee it'll be hard uh figuring out how to reread the road atlases that we all had when we were teenagers right and um I just see that as a as a progression these innovations that you speak of really position black orbital black space orbital to be on the Forefront and an innovator is that how you see yourselves and how important is that Vantage Point absolutely um you know one thing that we found is um these micro shuttles these otvs whatever you would like to call them um while we've had companies do um high performance satellites I can name one a true anomaly they're doing some really interesting work uh with traditional satellites that can be used for say a tactical space operation you have other companies like a vard and inversion space doing the capsules we're really the bridge between the high performance spacecraft and the re-entry systems and you know we in many ways as an engineer we are raised by the shuttle vets working at the Space Center a lot of the we call them gray beards but a lot of the those are just you know the folks who had the this significant you know 30 40 years experience doing something probably better than anybody could and then know finding the right people to then you know pass on their knowledge to right so having um you know shuttle veterans in the form of that or even you know Colonel vers you know again shuttle vet uh we're speaking and we've only spoke with him uh we'd love to bring him on as an advisor but uh a really interesting person worth uh knowing and reading their book is a man named Mike linebach Mike linebach was the uh launch director uh the last launch director that NASA had uh he was also in charge of the Columbia recovery and was integral for the Columbia investigation um you know I've been able I've been fortunate enough to meet him and talk about how important uh best safety and best engineering practices are and those are the kinds of things that we would like to bring into our culture as a company um you know at Blackstar we we strongly feel that uh um because we're developing this next Generation system we have the responsibility to then demonstrate it and show that it should be done right it shouldn't just be done for self- serving or self-aggrandizing ends um ultimately this is to defend you know American interest interests so say defend American interests in the commercial Way by boosting our GDP and providing great jobs great high paying jobs especially for the people of Arizona and then in the National Security context having something that is a formidable um deterrent uh for anything that maybe the folks in China or Russia are trying to do now it's worth pointing out China has a space plane in fact they landed their space plane I believe two days ago two or three days ago it's more of an x37 clone and um you know on the topic of x37 and the sier about a Dreamchaser uh we really feel that uh we like to call our vehicle a space drone versus their space shuttles why is that well they're a lot larger they're you know 40 to 60 feet long they can carry 10,000 pounds of cargo or people whereas we're trying to do excuse me the two- seat coupe right real quick I might want to cut that water break out um so yeah I mean just as far as um uh the Dreamchaser and the um the Dreamchaser and the X-37B being the sedans the original space shuttle being the minivan we're really trying to build a two- seat Coupe here it's a I would say it's the Ferrari but we're trying to drive cost down so maybe the Volkswagen Beetle only a lot sleeker and a lot sexier uh would be how we could frame that um yeah know with black star orbital we are again redefining what a satellite can do by redefining what a satellite is through the innovation of these reusable sub thousand kilogram space planes tell me how you balance this ambitious Vision with all these projects there's a lot going on and with practical business sense and adaptability in addition to speaking to the folks who are calling for this kind of work right you're you're answering a call you're you're helping folks so how do you manage way out in the future this Vision as well as practicality and what's happening right in front of you that's a fantastic question right now we have a um we have a direct goto Market strategy of getting our MVP out there which is a subscale version of the vehicle that will have the satellite Hardware on board inside and then we're going to test it on orbit um that can be done at a reduced discount because it is a smaller version of the ultimate vehicle we're planning on building secondly uh being Revenue generating involves you know three direct lines we have our defense contracts which speak for themselves we have the Sales and Leasing uh one and that's you know entally we can fly a black star unlike other satellites we can fly a black star with someone's company Livery on it much the same way that you see airliners have you know various different companies even if they're both made by Boeing right and having that as a major part of it so I'll give you an example a company called orbit fab right now we're engaging I believe a um five mission $62 million Loi to do orbital refueling in very low earth orbit now why is that advantageous for a company like black star to be operating there we have a narrow narrow aerody damic cross-section which means in layman's terms our vehicle is narrow and Sleek enough that that tenuous atmosphere that you find at the very EDG of space it could slice through that a lot smoother than those traditional satellites which are just basically a large computer box with solar panel Wings right and um that's one way we're doing it and the third way that we're doing it is a direct consumer payloads uh this is a really interesting one because this is something your audience can get involved with uh the idea that just like 23 and me's business model you can take we can send you go on our website we'll send you a box and in that box you can put a Keepsake whether it's you know wedding rings uh Memorial ashes business cards citizen science projects send that back to us we flight in Zerg and with Partners get you a certificate saying it's been in zerog G and um then we can fly it back because uh you know one question that we've asked ourselves is what do you give the person who has everything you give them their space right so that's uh that's exactly I love it yeah you know so we've we ended up um we ended up selling out our initial run almost overnight so we uh we sold 41 of these in basically like two weeks so we ended up having to slow down the sales process for it because there's such a demand now this is how you bootstrap demand in the space industry absolutely yes you case in point SpaceX starlink right what's the best way to to get um you know more Starships flying more falcon 's flying drive your own customer base sell them the internet sell them these space boxes and ultimately those will start driving the cost of the launches down while driving the number of your launches up so we have the advantage of not building a launch vehicle we're not building rockets and you know as somebody who's been through plenty of launch campaigns kind of happy about that I love the idea of being on the other end of that mission Spectrum if you will where we get to now be a direct end user um but ultimately through again government contracts direct Sales and Leasing of satellites both in traditional non-traditional sense and this uh direct consumer payloads project we really do have a pathway to re to being a revenue positive uh by 2028 obviously we got to get over you know amortizing the initial Investments and yes space is capital intensive uh but what we'll find on the other end of it is a uh system that can drive a much higher number of sales because at the end of the day our vehicles return home and then they can go to the same customer if they're on a long-term project or they can go to new customers uh we're developing our system so it can be produced on an assembly line the same way that aircraft and one thing that I don't have in my biography is I did spend some time at Embraer on the flight prep team which is really cool um on the flight prep team after it's gone through the entire manufacturing process through the facility it goes into uh this clean room where we come in and actually configure the vehicles for its first flight everything from peeling off the plastic on the on you know the little you know LCD screens you know for the for the flight computers to uh yeah to uh making sure that uh making sure that the trim and everything is you know working out correctly and then the uh pilot flies it for the first time the test pilot we give them we gave them the debrief made the adjustments and then that went out to get painted before it got sent to the customer so that's the other thing that we're really bringing to uh you know this history I don't really talk that was a that was a brief time between SpaceX and United Frontiers um yeah at that time at embri a I was paying very close attention to how these aircraft manufacturing lines actually operate and they take a lot of people that's why we're going to be scaling up and we'd ideally like to do this in Tucson a facility by the end of the decade that has at least 300 employees there uh where we can start supporting uh these constellation missions just like uh for example starlink that's a constellation they need to send up thousands of satellites well those thousands of Satellites after they're out of fuel become thousands of ballistic projectiles that you then have to wait to naturally Decay and deorbit into the atmosphere now low earth orbit that's not a problem most of them will be gone in 25 to 50 years but once you get to medium earth orbit it's hundreds of years High Earth orbit it's thousands of years let's bring the satellites back down to be refurbished or recycled there's also companies that are looking at doing inspace recycling we could grapple those satellites and deliver it directly to them as well and we have Partnerships for that with Cal Morris Incorporated uh Cal Morris is a they're company that's focusing on Space debris and they've uh invented this really interesting end effect end affector that essentially is like a hand that can grapple an object and then it can get you know Reed back into then be towed elsewhere so um it's about being again the platform for these this triangulation if you will of Innovative Technologies in a way that when they work together uh can do some amazing things that nobody's seen before and it's done in a practical realistic sense that's why we're very much focused on uh developing our MVP down in Sierra Vista in coordination with a few of the universities who have some tech specialized Tech Talent you know from there I mean that's that's where you have your flight you know your rathon computers and your sensors from Honeywell and being able to get those subject matter experts who can help us integrate that properly um but at end of the day this is a 36 gallon fuel tank clad in heat shield tiles with our patented modular spacecraft Bay that can hold any type of satellite Hardware internally or we can deploy somebody's satellite as well if it's small enough again the vehicle is not that large which means we can mass-produce tons of them for probably only about $1.25 million which sounds like a lot but in spacecraft terms is not very much at all because it's a titanium composite system now um does that include the mission Hardware from our customer know that we're only speaking about the vehicle the flight controls propellant tanks the pressurization tanks hydraulic lines pneumatics things of that nature right um but we're looking at having a refurbishment cost between 40 and 60% of the manufacturing cost which means by the time you've got an emission four or five the savings of your vehicle has already paid off of itself and then added 100 to 200% back as far as the revenue that's been generating from the same platform so you know over that course course one vehicle over five missions you know substantially drives up the value for both the customer and the stakeholders for the company uh than these single use satellites Ever Could you know could ever imagine doing so let's talk about the stakeholders obviously this is business radio we are it's all B2B conversations who is it that black star over hopes is listening today and who else do you need to partner with or like what what relationships do you need to continue to build to uh to have what you need to make this all come together as a CEO I have to always be in fundraising mode so of course ideally we'd love for that one investor to be listening uh to join our current team of investors and stakeholders um but ultimately other than that this is really about public awareness this is Raising um the cause that um that space is a viable business that is right NE that could be right next door to you and say for example you run an HVAC company well get with us because my facility down Sierra is going to need an hbac system engineering firms we're talking to them right now about our rfis that we might need so again this is something that um That Matters to everybody as an Arizona taxpayer um having these high-paying jobs coming to the state um which ultimately should give you better goods and services as delivered by you know your local and state municipalities ultimately that drives up the value for the tax base you'll see nicer neighborhoods because you have more Aerospace Talent living there um it's it's really again it's those it's those second and third third order effects of having a stronger Aerospace ecosystem and uh to Brett mum's credit who uh works with uh who works as a consultant uh he has a lot of uh people within his uh clientele listing and the state house um he was instrumental to getting HB 2254 passed um this was the implementation of the Arizona space commission which I think goes live tomorrow uh September 14th um past legislation what it does it establishes a commission for the state um for Space Industries at the state level uh providing inputs to lawmakers as to you know where they should be you know placing the regulations where where should they be placing those carrots where should they be placing those sticks how do we get more Innovative early stage companies in Arizona how do we poach companies that may be established out of state for example like Blackstar being established in Florida how do we bring those companies like Blackstar to the State of Arizona as we know there's a lot of space companies in West LA you know we have some advantages here in Los in in Arizona that can you know support this business Community while driving a better value for them as well um so again I'd say that anybody who's if you are a resident and taxpaying citizen in Arizona um we'd love for you guys to understand that companies like black star orbital exist and we exist in this state because of the Partnerships that were established between groups like the Arizona Commerce Authority the Senate President the governor's office um you know the a tech Council that's another critical one I recently moderated a panel um at an a tech Council event I believe the aadm conference um in Tucson and that was really interesting uh Jim Cantrell was on that panel who we ended up uh he's our launch provider and tell you if you want somebody who understands launch go to the guy who who taught Elon about rocket engineering because he's the guy who you'd probably want launching your satellite too right so Jim Krell who's a phenomenal human being and a good and a good man too you have uh you have the folks ganhe Lee from Catalyst space up in Flagstaff we had Karen mcvine from the Arizona Commerce Authority on that panel we had two folks from Honeywell and rathon and yes we did put them right next to each other no there was no sparks that flu um yeah we had them on this panel that I moderated we got some great questions and engagement but it's things like that as well it it's the Confluence of those State groups it's those you know Private Business Community organizations and it's ultimately the companies that make it all happen America was built on small businesses there's no mistake about that even your Ford Dupont General Electric all started as small companies that just found that Innovative Niche at the right time because again timing you know timing well not again it's worth pointing out timing is everything when it comes to these new technologies um maybe I'll give you an example I think it was Ray Raymond KW uh who stated that when you're developing a new technology don't develop for your audience of today develop for your audience three to five years from now so it's it's almost like if you're a marksman or if you've ever done target shooting of a moving Target you don't just aim right at that Target when you're firing because you'll miss it you have to lead ahead a little bit in order to make those marks and those marks in the business context is Market traction so in terms of Market traction for black star orbital we've um we've sold we've sent up out about uh 92.9 million and signed Lois and purchase order uh conversions um and that's just getting started we've also received SB grant funding we have more SBI in the works right now dealing with everything from flight applications to ISR applications which is really cool ultimately those can convert into those Strat fies and Tac fies strategic funding um those strategic funding raises right and those come in the form at the like 50 to 70 to800 million range because ultimately that's the government saying we would like that as their program of record and uh what's really amazing right now is that this is the best time to be involved in Aerospace or defense because now they the there's been there's been a break in the wall real take a take a drink of water real quick getting over cold so there's this been this break in the wall right the light is shining through no longer is it your your original primes your boeings loids your North or grummond now you have your andreal and that's really interesting polymer luy company another guy who who likes wearing uh apparently he also likes wearing Hawaiian shirts is what I've been told um you have Andrew you have Kratos you have these emerging companies that are now getting involved in the defense space who used to be Outsiders a few years ago and now they're winning the contracts they're not just competing they're winning they're offering Superior Products than the other guys uh so we're seeing a major sea change right now in um these new entrance into the Aerospace and defense world so um so how do you how do you stay well how do you stay ahead of those Market disruptions I mean how do you how do you keep a handle on all of this well uh this is where it's really important to have a fantastic Brain Trust you know going back to being a systems engineer knowing how to stack the right Talent on your team is critical systems Engineers like I I've said it before I'll say it again are the NBAs of the future so if you're thinking about getting an NBA right now think about getting a systems engineering degree as well you might find those two work very well together um but to to more directly answer your question how do we identify these Innovative Trends um a lot of that is knowing your industry I think you get that through time going to the conferences talking to your industry peers listening to them talk about what their experiences are with the other companies that may or may not be in the room to get a realistic sense about what exactly is the uh is the is what are the uh what are the uh what are the little birds telling you in the industry uh because you'll find that the more little you know pieces of data you have the more you can build a composite image and I think you know part of being you know a good Visionary company full of smart people is smart people also tend to take an accurately extrapolate little pieces of data in a coherent way moving forward so I'll give you a perfect example uh Steve Jobs and Steve wnc you know they they saw that Xerox was doing graphical user interfaces they saw that there was this computer club that they were a part of that were able to do these really interesting homebuilt PCS and they were able to realize that there's a there could be a pre-made consumer variant of what was only a hobbyist or a specialist platform you know combining the hobbyist machines with the specialist you know software and from there they were able to create the original Apple and so things like that a lot of it is just being in the right place at the right time also so in that case it's a fair bit of luck I often wonder if a lot of the business magnets around today who made their money in the doom boom if they were born 10 years earlier 10 years later uh would have been a even able to catch that wave now granted I think that you know High performers will always be high performers whether or not they make it to Silicon Valley in 1994 um but ultimately I think a lot of what we're seeing with the timing is just being in the right industry at the right time when the technology has matured to a point that it's no longer the exclusive purview of uh National governments and uh you can see that I guess uh with the polar's dawn mission that just happened and having the right people on the team that's critical yes how do you cultivate the right culture and the right environment for Innovation absolutely a lot of that is empowering your people one thing that we found is uh we work great with folks who are who can be self-directed but have the same coherent Vision so you know part of what we do you know kitten and I is we cast this vision and set the requirements processes we say what the requirements are what the customer might need and when we're stacking the right team in the right town the amazing thing about that is the people who come to us that we don't even have to search for that's when you know you might be on to something really interesting is when your inbox is full and everybody blows your blows your mind with their qualifications like astrophysicists with top secrets you know and the like I could I could keep going on about that folks from the Intel Community you know seasoned locked Martin veterans who've been to Skunk Works it's like I would have been happy just for that person to to have five minutes with them and now they want to come and work for us um so I think you have to have an attractive company attractive culture and a lot of that comes down to having an attractive product as well I feel that with Blackstar we have all those different pieces I think one of the things on culture um you know I'm a musician at heart before I did before I did before I did technology I loved uh playing live music I did Jazz Rock You Name It little bit of Bluegrass even had of mandolin uh I grew up in Virginia all my friends became really good professional grade musicians my brother is a phenomenal musician uh plays everything at the expert level and every one of those guys taught music for like 20 years right and so understanding and this also goes for if you're playing team sports too the same analogy Works um if you've ever been in team sports or you've played in a band that's a critical part to knowing how to have a coherent team that's working together with the same Creative Vision towards that end so I think a lot of times you find that there's a that needs to be or people think you need a top- down approach to Innovation I find that we've had amazing work in the collaborative setting up for example when Kit Carson first uh we first flew him out to Florida back when we were doing you know Ripple and United Frontiers you know over the course of a weekend in my apartment right outside Kennedy Space Center we came up with five patents and a couple years later we're finally starting to file those patents we're starting to actually get them awarded so I mean a lot of those things you got to have the right team members but also a little bit of again is luck what happened if Steve Jobs never met Steve wnc you know it's how would have that how would the whole history of that company changed probably would have still been an apple they probably would have still done the same things but it wouldn't have W's Special Touch probably right it would have been probably you know a little bit more or a little less uh you know sophisticated maybe and oh I can't remember the saying about luck but preparation meets opportunity meets opportunity that's what luck is right so you've got position yourself for it uh we're just about out of time for our conversation today and I my again my mind is racing I'm so thrilled to have you with us today um let's do a little forecasting what's happening in Aerospace industry in the next decade you're G to see more private companies a perfect example polar's DA they just had the first commercial spacewalk um in history as I was getting ready I was I just finished doing an AI conference in Colorado Springs so this is about 5 o'clock in the morning morning in Colorado I'm getting ready I you know put the news on you know I put YouTube news on or whatever as you know I'm getting my bags packed and you see Jared Isaac men you know come out of his Space Capsule grab the uh you know grab the bars and he's looking out over you know Earth and he said something really interesting he's like and I'm going to paraphrase it um you know acknowledging that we have a lot of work that we still need to do but from space earth looks perfect from up here and I really liked that that was like a really kind of like a beautiful statement that he made um you know some people were giving him a flack for being a billionaire when here I am thinking as like this guy is putting his own skin at risk paying for this Mission so so companies can make the business case that they too can have their staff go up there and support you know these large space infrastructure projects so what's coming down the pipeline I would say let's talk about space infrastructure as enabled by SpaceX Starship you have companies right now that would like to do data da data centers for AI in space and we're talking large you know four Kil kilometer wide solar rays you know for multi- megawatt data centers so we can have enough compute for artificial intelligence um we're going to see lunar Gateway become a hub for some of these commercial operators as well I would expect that within 10 years with the Artemis program have having successfully put somebody on the moon as soon as you see the commercial uh Leo stations open up it's going to be a matter of months less than a year before these same companies are announcing that they have lunar programs that they'd like to do as well because it's a lot easier when you don't have to station keeps something when you can have it on the moon you have ready available access to resources uh there's a fantastic company from a former colleague of mine lunar resources and they're working on doing things like lunar infrastructure a lunar oxygen pipeline so taking the water M from Shackleton crater um hitting with electricity to liberate the hydrogen from the oxygen taking that oxygen and hydrogen and then pumping it so it can be refueling for the next series of spaceship so they can go further out so just on the topic of Aerospace we're going to see more robust uh space development programs and we'd love uh Black Star to help enable that so much fun listening to you thank do you sleep um when I can should I ask your wife that question does he ever rest that's a great question to ask her she she'd probably say not enough and she yeah yeah I I think we know what she would say I love it well it's been a pleasure to get to know you Christopher and again I'm I'm so grateful for all the folks who had this conversation of mind and and made that happen today uh you've been listening to Christopher Janet he is the co-founder and CEO for Blackstar or portal how can folks stay in touch with you uh you can reach out to us through our website www.sp drone.io or email us at info SPAC drone.io and either me or one of my colleagues will read that and we'll uh follow up with you so good you've been listening to Phoenix business radio broadcasting live from the Max 6 entrepreneurial center some media lean left some lean right and we lean space until next time I'm Karen awii thanks for listening