DEBATE REVIEW "ISLAMIC DILEMMA" REFUTED!

Stream begins with introductory thoughts [Music] guys we're going to be going over the debate I had with Chris the other day and we'll be reviewing it Isa and I andah if anyone else wants to come up they they're free to come up and inshah at the end of the review you guys can uh come up and let let us know your thoughts or if anyone has any questions about my position uh even non-muslims free to come up at the end and but yeah inshah just wait for some people to come in and we should be starting soon she GNA have to leave in about 20 minutes to pray but I'll be back uh soon after inshallah so we'll just give a couple minutes or so he so what was what was your thoughts on the debate generally Yeah umum Yeah Chris was generally just coping going off topic extremely off topic going to I don't know saying a Quran contradicts it's not the Islamic dilemma you can see did the debate Midway through and said you know this isn't my position which was very weird so yeah I mean like Chris just yeah he's he's an NPC really so it's nothing new yeah you know know even braim in the in the live before with the dawi he was like calling him slow like generally I think he's slow like he couldn't actually process the arguments and what was happening especially that part about the Pharisees I think that part cut him the most because it showed he was inconsistent if you're going to be reading the Quran a certain way where you're going to force like an absolute interpretation and you're not going to allow for nuance then why should I do this why why can't I do the same with the gospels right like in the gospel of Matthew chapter 23 yeah that was a good point okay will start in about a minute inah inshah I will if you guys want to support me as well become a YouTube member you get access to uh an exclusive Discord server that we have and you can also become a patreon member as well both links are in my description and if you have any extra donations uh the Gund me will be appre I'll be it'll be very I would appreciate a lot if you would donate to the Gund me as well inah um it's going to help a lot with me being able to upload more content because it does take a lot of time like I edit my own videos and I make my own content like even my arguments as well like the Matthew 23 argument like I made it myself so it takes time to like formulate these things so okay I got some time stamps ready maybe we can go through them so we're going to skip over his introductory statement because we know like what the Islamic dilemma is and we'll just go to my introductory in right okay are you American now I mean in a sense yeah I was born in America but I Answering some of the questions from the chat-section live in Australia now can you explain why you think John fontaine's argument is week uh I spoke to him I don't think it's as weak as before but I don't think I still think it's not historically tenable I think you can make the inference that because the Bibles or the Old Testament and I should say the Torah and the injil which is like the gospels and and the Torah being the pentet if you see that it's in Conformity with most places outside of Medina then it's safe to assume that in Medina would be the same Torah and injil for the most part right are you confident you won the debate yeah like pretty confident I won I think that's like I haven't heard any person properly critique my position there's a lot of Clips as well there's um highlights on uh brother proving Islam's Channel as well if you want to check just the highlights okay let's uh start the video now in so this is the introductory statement I believe let me just get that okay can you see my screen yeah okay where am I from originally I'm from Lebanon ethnically born in America living in Australia at the moment did you watch Chris's review I feel like he's being pretty dishonest yeah definitely uh he accused me of cheating with and the only basis he had really was I was looking down and Ibrahim was looking down well yeah bir it's 2024 like ibraim is probably on his phone and I was just writing down stuff or I was looking through my notes on my phone I already had them prepared from the day before what does Chris mean by Universal corruption I thought he changed the criteria there or I must be missing something yeah he did definitely change the criteria um The Dilemma that he's presenting is that there is a Tor inil at time of the Prophet wasam that is the same Tor inil that was sent to the prophets before for and yet this one that's been confirmed absolutely contradicts with um the Quran and yet it's been confirmed then he shifted his position to no no no I never meant Absolute confirmation well if it's not absolute conf confirmation and we can say it generally confirms according to the Quran then that the Dilma doesn't exist then he just completely shifted the entire argument Debate review with Isalnsight okay uh we'll start the video now inah okay you can start it now all right okay so the question is does the Quran affirm the Bible Well the Islamic dilemma uh goes as follows I I'll try to steal man as as much as I can the Quran affirms all of the Bible today if a Muslim believes that the Quran affirms all of the Bible today then it will be confirming parts that are contradictory if a Muslim believes the Bible is corrupt then they are contradicted the Quran so these are the two horns of the argument the first horn is you're conceding to a contradiction in the Quran the Quran itself says it cannot have a contradiction if it's from Allah the second horn will be that you are going against the Quran itself in terms of its beliefs so the main assumption T here is does the Quran really affirm all of the Bible at its time well the answer is no the burden the proof is on chiss to show an absolute confirmation with no exceptions at all to this Rule and in today I'm going to be going through and destroying that claim of um absolute confirmation so this is my position the Quran generally affirs the truths Contin with the scriptures at its time and my position is laid out by and makes mention that the Torah includes either the book that was given to Moses or the greater Jewish scriptures IM says there the same thing saying that he first was reveal to M or also in theth it's used in expansive sense uh to mean the greater Jewish scriptures and makes mention on my position regarding the in uh the in is made mention by be possibly um The Commandments Parables and teachings of that's found throughout the gospels and not the biographical accounts and information outside of the sayings of Jesus peace be upon Him obviously it's going to be a general affirmation of these categories I've just listed and the general information will be restricted to whatever is confirmed by the Quran and Sunnah anything contradicting it we are to discard and anything in between we are terain agnostic we neither to affirm or deny now I went through all the verses that you Chris brings in his videos and I put them into like different categories the first category is just confirming what came before this has no relevancy at all in terms of this Islamic Dilma this category of versus it doesn't require explation okay so I wanted to um just make something clear because he didn't actually uh understand this point which is because he he later quotes uh Mark 1 which obviously from my Paradigm my concept of what the inil is it doesn't fit that description Mark 111 is is the sayings of the author that's not the sayings or Commandments or Parables of that's being documented so I think I made it pretty clear in my introductory I don't know like what do you think he saw some some people did tell me that like maybe I didn't make it clear enough no it's it's pretty clear and anyone that reads is that which Jesus said so that which Jesus is said saying it's not going to be John or Mark and what they're saying right so like you have like different parts of the Bible so like you know like the Red Letter Bible and stuff like this like where it's just talking from what Jesus is saying right and then you have something an addon or biography from the office that's what says he says what what the four gospels are they contain parts of theil with a or a type of biography by this author meaning Mark or John whoever it may be right really because it's just confirming what preceded the prophet wasam really has nothing to do with confirming uh the Bible in the sth century now going through confirming the books at the of the Prophet uh s alhi wasallam well the confirmation being mentioned here as I mentioned before is a general confirmation of the fundamental truths and origins of these Revelations and does not affirm the exceptional cases where there are mod modifications right as the verse is listed here it's confirming their own scriptures at the time of the Prophet Sall Al wasallam as well as asking them to bring the Torah so they have the Torah in a general sense as well as saying that they read the scripture do they read absolutely everything that is the scripture that is something for Chris to prove there's a distinction between a general statement being used or identifying something by a certain amount of contents in this case being Revelation and uh there between saying that and making absolute statement that this fulfills all conditions of being titled unconditionally the book of Allah in every single sense so again continuing confirming the books of the time of the Prophet s wasam this General these types of General affirmations or commands are found like throughout the whole entire Quran you see male and female thi have to have their hands cut off what they have done now are in every single case does a male and female Thief have to have their hands cut off no if they steal an apple that doesn't meet the requirements of uh the amount that's needed to be stolen in terms of in terms of the actual value of the thing to actually have their hands chopped off or uh if there's something wrong with them mentally or if they're stealing out of poverty these are all exceptions to the general rule this isn't to be applied absolutely again we see we see here the Believers fulfill these conditions they there are men and women who are guardians of one another they encourage good and forbid evil they also establish prayer now establishing prayer obviously a woman isn't considered to not be a good believer if they don't establish prayer during the mation so this is yet again an exception right so if you're going to say that there's exceptions to these General affirmations a general commands and uh you're willing to be charitable with these verses then don't be in consistent when it comes to uh you interpreting the other vers when it comes to confirming scriptures at the time of the Prophet wasam we see more examples here obey Allah and obey the messenger and those in Authority among you obviously the Obe to Allah and his messenger uh is in absolute Obe but when it comes to obeying those in Authority among you that won't be an absolute obey there's G to be exceptions to the rule if my ruler tells me to prostrate down to an idol I not to obey the ruler so this is an exception to the rule Allah stipulates again do not marry politic until they believe is that a contradiction in the Quran when we have another verse that's revealed that says you can marry from you can marry from the Jews and Christians no it's not it's just a general rule that there's an exception for which Allah stipulates later on so just having basic humanics and being terrible to the text so okay so what do you think about that point with those examples yeah it was good it was very good especially the the example obey Allah obey the messenger and those in Authority above you does it mean complete obedience to those in Authority above you right exactly like I can make so many examples even even I I probably should have brought some examples in the Bible as well besides this one I think this one was sufficient but regardless yeah I could have highlighted way more hypocrisy on on his standards yeah yeah it's good but you kept it internal sources because he was making a he was making internal crique anyway so it's you didn't go to the Bible maybe they accuse you of saying like oh you're doing a two yeah people still accuse me of a two cqu but I never even said Matthew 23 is a problem I just said I grant that Matthew 23 is not a problem if I'm going to be charitable like that then do the same and be chared with the Quran right it's yeah be be consistent yeah right yeah here's an example Matthew 23 right you have Jesus commanding the Pharisees the teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in moses' seat so you must be careful to do everything they tell you right but the Pharisees they taught the oral law right so if this is not just a general command this is an absolute command and we go like sort of unable reading of texts this is going to be a contradiction because we see times where Jesus peace be upon him in the gospels he actually condemns the Pharisees for certain oral practices right he doesn't believe in everything that they teach the phes also teach that Jesus peace be upon Him is the Messiah is he saying to take those teachings from the phes is he is he saying for for his disciples and for his followers to go ahead and believe absolutely everything of course not as as I just made mentioned this is a restricted obeyence this is an absolute so let's be consistent now and be charitable just as I'm being charitable with the text here be charitable with the Quran when it makes General stipulations General commands yeah so so so with this example uh of Matthew 23 it was pretty simple like I laid it out clearly and then I pressed him with it uh in the cross examination period right and he didn't respond like he didn't respond sufficiently and yeah like obviously there's times where Jesus PE be upon him as I mentioned he condemned certain over practices right and yet at the in the same breath he also says to obey the Pharisees because they have authority and I I was going to bring a commentary but it would have taken too much time that's partly why I was speaking so fast as well trying to fit everything in the intro uh there's a commentary you can check also from St Jerome where he talks about um obeying the Pharisees and what does it mean for them to sit on moses' seat it means that they have the authority to teach the law is Jesus saying they have the authority to teach the law absolutely like of course not so you can even check like patristic commentaries on this and it'll back up this point because obviously the way that they teach the law isn't right at certain points of time sometimes they they teach that you know divorce is correct for example Jesus says divorce isn't correct that's not the proper application so yeah now we get to another category of versus that Chris lists uh he lists these verses where apparently Jesus PE upon Him is confirming what at his time right now it's kind of a bad translation to say is actually confirming what's between the hands at the time but I want to Grant it even if we Grant this right even if we grant that PE upon Him is tor at his time again this is the general sense like my methodology basic htics and basic uh uh being terrible to the text it allows for all of these to be harmonized very simply the burden of proof is on chist to show evidence that there is no there's no actual exceptions to these rules and it's an absolute confirmation which he won't be able to do here's another type of commonly misunderstood verse the word of Allah come be changed these verses are taken completely out of context right these are this is how weak this argument is they rely upon things being taken out of context there's nothing in the surrounding context that suggests that the words of Allah here is referring to the Tor on Earth in this if you look at the context the previous verse in of chapter chapter 18 it says how perfectly he hears and sees they have no guard besides him and he shares his command with none then he goes on to say none can change his words nor can you find any Refuge besides him linking no refuge besides him to the fact that they can't find any Guardian besides him as well as his word being linked to his command and then you have uh in chapter 6 verse 114 what links to the fact that no one can change Allah's words here is yet again his decree it's his command when he promises something is going to be fulfilled in this case it's the coming of the Prophet s alaihi wasallam the fact that those who are given the scripture know that what has been revealed to the prophet wasallam is the truth how do they know this they know this because this is foretold in the scriptures right so the context is clear there there's no affirmation of the Tor in in this life and if someone could tell me the time just real quick eight minutes yeah you know he mentions the point that oh why did you refr this point about the words of Allah can't be changed right and I was like ver that's my introductory statement like I wasn't trying to respond to your points I was just trying to Encompass like a response to any possible objection and to give a Reconciliation for any possible argument he could bring right so I made that General uh rebuttal which is there's a general affirmation going on then I made specific rebuttal for other points he could possibly uh bring up he I kind like I've seen him use uh this point before I'm pretty sure like the words of Allah lot can be changed if not him then like anyone that that usually uses generally people that use Islamic dma use that use that basically yeah of course so okay yeah so now we're going to go into like the arguments of the Quran the quranic author I should say believes in some form of corruption now whoever um CHR wants to take the quranic author to be it's very apparent and you have to be very disingenuous to say that the quranic author doesn't actually edit biblical knowledge that he has the Au of the Quran appears to be familiar with the contents of theor in at the time as Chris mentioned in right uh there's an expansive um account of Abraham Joseph's story uh Jesus story uh David Solomon please be upon them all so how does he go ahead and how does he ignorantly assign these U you know alterations or these additions to the Scriptures it is does not make any sense and we have one first example of this right we have the example of Moses skin having a disease having lepos and the Quran already explicitly denies this by saying it's unblemished right SK was unblemished in this account and the Quran has an expansive account of um the story of Moses peace be upon him it clearly knows there's a particular section it does not agree with and it's editing it again we have the fact that uh heavens and earth were created in six days by Allah and he says that he was not even touched with fatigue in Exodus we see uh that God is said to have made the heavens and earth in six days and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed yet again from Exodus the clear indication that the quranic author knows stuff from Exodus and is intentionally uh going ahead and editing it as it doesn't confirm AB the Quran does not confirm absolutely everything again a very obvious one uh so if you are to tell me that the quranic author is ignorant of of Jesus peace upon him dying and being resurrected according to the gospels that's just going to be the biggest cope you're saying that John Fain had a conspiracy theory Tor and in well this this requires conspiracy that the individual who made the Quran from your perspective had an ignorance of fundamental doctrines from the inil and yet was able to extract uh other other information that isn't as U fundamental you can't have you kick and eat it if if you are saying that he's copying from Traditions then how is he overlooking these basic fundamental Traditions that he's contradicting obviously he knows the content of the says Jesus was resurrected and crucified and the Quran rejects that saying Jesus Son saying that the Jews boasted we killed the Messiah Jesus Son of Mary the messenger of Allah but they neither killed nor crucified him it was only made to appear so and obviously cause um caus this people only making assumptions and conjecture this idea and where does this idea stem from from theil in their hands there's a level of corruption the quranic author would not be ignorant of this another argument another AR I think that's one of the most powerful arguments someone can bring which is that if the quranic author from the perspective does not know the contents of the Bible and is incorrectly attributing these things then they have to explain how the quranic author would have so much knowledge of basic stuff uh and very uh trivial stuff in the grand scheme of things but yet fundamental doctrines like whether God rested or not or whether um Jesus was crucified or not peace be upon him like how could the clonic Al to be ignorant of this it just doesn't make any sense yeah exactly yeah that's a good point another argument from the Quran is that there are prominent figures that are well versed within the scriptures and yet still don't bring this this abdah Salam was a knowledgeable Jew at his time during time prophet wasam and he would have known the contents of the Torah extensively the Jews at his time in Medina praised him as being knowledgeable so why does he ever notice his apparent contradiction he tests the prophet with certain questions right and he eventually converts to Islam as this Hadith says so yet again it it is to be asked why doesn't he notice this contradiction of so parent obviously because you're doing from then we have who was once a Christian who converted to Islam and he's able to identify the Prophet wasam by a prophecy Isa actually um before we continue uh just on this point about examples examples of um the Quran consciously editing biblical passages what do you think ESO for me and you make a presentation where we show almost like all of those that we can find within the Quran yeah yeah yeah like all of them we I mean we we already made like a a semi list on in our personal messages anyways but it wouldn't be that hard to make one yeah exactly and there was a lot of them that I was exposed to recently like preparing for the debate uh that I wanted to include in the presentation but I could I could have only like included three because of the lack of time yeah but yeah in we can do that uh we can maybe maybe make a PowerPoint presentation on that specifically uh also I might put I'm GNA have to put the link for this PowerPoint as well because some people were asking for it as well so let me do that now in and I'll continue n right and he's so well versed in the scriptures that he can identify the prophet so but you're telling me that he's not able to identify the fact that there's contradictions between the new book that he believes in the Quran and the previous book even though the book is meant to be affirming everything in the old book that makes no sense at all how is he not able to identify this are they all just too obuse to identify this only Chris and his buddies David wood and and are able to identify this like it's just claiming complete conspiracy now you have the Christians from Nan as well you would expect a level of criticism from even outside um places such as as they criticize the prophet saying that bro look look at God logic's face bro he knows he's cooked bro he's just smiling bro he knows he's cooked right he's like yeah wait I didn't I didn't even notice that let play that yeah he's like smiling the whole way he knows he's cooked identify this are they all two to identify this only Chris and his buddies David wood and Sam Shon are able to identify this like it's just claiming complete conspiracy now you have from level of criticism from even outside um places such as as they criticize the prophet wasam coming with a verse saying that Aaron was the brother of and the prophet wasam told the companion that heard this criticism from the Christians and explanation uh the issue here is well the Christians were heing the Quran and they they took upon themselves to criticize this particular verse but whenever they would hear that the Quran would affirm and the complete Bible they have in their hands and yet contradict itself many of times they're not willing to bring that up right like we expect it to be at least some level of criticism from knowledgeable Jews knowledgeable Christians or reverts to Islam now the last section will be that the Quran leads us to theith the Quran tells us to obey the prophet sallai wasallam and also says he does not speak from his but before I get to the third section what do you think about that argument the argument from Silence I was bringing yeah it's a it's a good argument that like Subhan Allah if this is something that's so clear to Christians like so clear well okay this a clear contradiction then people who are earlier than them who were more versed they would have brought this up they would you you know what's funny actually you know like early Christians well that even wrote against Islam you know they didn't even bring this up like a lot of them didn't even bring us up the earliest one the earliest text I saw was uh the one with Islam but that's like hundreds of years later no I'm talking about like even early Christians like uh and like Jon Damascus these people they didn't bring these stuff up actually oh yeah yeah you're right good point joh Damascus Pro I joed the M quite early and um people like in Islam in golden age that Christians they didn't bring the stuff up like this was a very rare talking point uh right no no one even brought these stuff up right even if you look at like John Damascus like horrible like reputations of Islam they're really bad like uh John Damascus was the sth century it was very early he never brought these stuff up even uh like uh in fact a quietness as well like when he's refusing he doesn't bring oh that's right that's right yeah point so even from the early Christians who write against Islam they don't bring these stuff up who's he's like another Christian in the golden age he didn't bring these stuff up so it just shows you that these people who understand Christianity better than any of these apologists they don't bring it up why because well to be frank they're not you know they're a bit brighter let's just say that to be nice right um that is a very good point I I should redo this PowerPoint uh maybe we can uh like add more stuff like more because obiously it had to be cut a little bit for for time conveniences but I guess we can we can edit we can add more slides and more information and then we can present it like maybe a 30 minute presentation yeah yeah 30 minute presentation and we'll just say Islamic dilemma refuted or something you know we can maybe present it like on da wise as well I can ask them in because they were asking for like PowerPoints to be presented yeah yeah whims or his desires we have an explicit Hadith from the prophet saying explic that the Bible has been distorted it says meaning they lied about their prophets just as they distorted their book right so we have not just this narration explicit from the prophet that is authenticated by the standards of Muslim but we also have corroborating narration that makes it Mass yeah but you know Chris was sweating when heard that Arabic bro that fluent Arabic bro he was swear look look at him holding his face he's like yo I'm cooked bro God logic's like fearing for his life he's like yeah man I don't know what to say [Music] man he transmitted that this was the attitude of the earliest companions we have I Abbas may all pleased with him the man that the prophet made Dua for for him to excel in his exod of the Quran he he says that concerning the Muslims oh group of Muslims how can you ask the people the scriptures about anything while your book which Allah has revealed to you Prophet contains the most recent news from Allah and it's pure and not distorted he's contrasting the Quran being pure and not distorted to what the scriptures that they have in their hands Allah has told you that the people of the scriptures have changed some of Allah's books and distorted it and wrote something within their own hands and said this is from Allah so as to have a minor gain for it we see the same attitude being expressed by a companion asking them saying Oh command of the believer save this nation before they differ about the book as the Jews and the Christians did before them the book being the Quran so obviously saying that the Jews and Christians differed over what what the scripture was there was a level of corruption that went on then finally uh what's my time uh it's 45 it's 1445 but you can take the extra 45 seconds if you want yeah yeah yeah I'll take it yes so then just a couple extra mentions uh Quran chapter 2 vers verse 79 you know people like Chris and Sam that like and God logic are like proponents of this argument they do always do men gymnastics on this verse it's it's apparent it's clear wo to those who destroy the scripture with their own hands they say this is from Allah seeking a fleeting gain clearly the case that there's a of corruption going on at the time of the prophet sallallah alhi wasallam and that he was it is possible to corrupt the very words that are in the books at the time y you know you know he actually considered that point later on he was like yeah that was never my point that these were distorted but you see Sam shamon you see David wood you see all of these guys what do they say about 279 they say 279 says nothing about corruption at the time which I'm very surprised Chris actually admitted this he admitted to that Hadith that they um actually distort their books they literally distorted their books at the time of the prophet in Medina would corrupt their Torah and injil but he was just making a point about oh where's the universal corruption which is like he asked Forum essentially word uh fallacy where he's like oh show me where any of these Hadith say everywhere it's corrupted it's like come you could just infer from the yeah but you know uh I should have mentioned this as well I forgot doing the debate and I already knew this before but we take hadiths or Quran verses or anything whatever rulings we we take them to be um first and then unless there's precedence to make it uh specific and we have like good evidence for that then we should always the attitude should always be that's General right you see this like for a lot of rulings and discussions going on um over different things there's differences of opinion based on the evidence whether something's cost or not whether something's specific or not uh and yeah there's a case to be made here that this is General there's no reason to restrict to just the specific setting where they were doring the books the burden the proof is on him to show that this is meant to be it's meant to be specific and um restricted in Quran CH 5 ver 48 it says it mentions the word Min in the Arabic which means from giving precedence to my explanation that the Quran at the time of the Prophet wasam is only affirming sections from the Bible uh that are parts and not not the whole not the entirety right uh and yeah that should be it so if you think if you think that the Quran does actually affirm Bible then you're just a certified clown right because as as I showed throughout my whole presentation there's so many reasons not to affirm this and it Christians just shoehorn this argument in because they're trying to cope with the fact that they can't bring anything that's of substance against the concept of God in Islam or other theological things they just Tred to like carry on like some some strolls like the qur Bible yeah you know man s advised me about that and he's like yeah you shouldn't have had uh called him a clown and stuff but I mean but he did this deserve it because of what happened afterwards you know I'm calling him a because he holds like such a weird and not not just weird about this un substantiated view on the Quran and he's been completely disingenuous uh but for me like he called me a cheater right what's wor calling someone a clown or calling someone a cheater he doesn't have any grounds to call me a cheater I have grounds to call him a clown because like seriously he is one like I'm not gonna lie right but yeah inshah like like manur and like other brothers advised me they're like yeah you shouldn't you should be more academic in your approach even if they're left even if there are like people who insult and blaspheme and um do these sort of things you shouldn't like react likewise so all right so that was Dean's opening statement so now we're going to go ahead and go into theal section so Ibrahim if you can keep my time as I start the reut SE keep mentioning me um so Dean I just mess you uh so Chris whenever you're ready seven minutes for the rebuttal section all right and you let me know when you want me to press Start you're muted cool so first of all he says that the debate is all about whether or not all of the Bible is affirmed no that's not true at all in fact the Islamic dilemma needs only a fraction of the whole Bible to be affirmed by the Quran in order for the Islamic Dilemma to pass through I don't know why he framed it this way he should know how does that make any sense no no no because if if only if we only affirm a fraction of the Bible okay let's go with this let's go only a fraction okay what's a fraction let's say a fractions like 100 okay so if the Quran only affirms like some parts of Deuteronomy and like verses where it says that God is one is there a dilemma talking the point is is that um the Quran that affirms whatever portion or fraction he wants to say there is how do you know the Quran is actually affirming that particular fraction unless the Quran unless the Quran itself mentions it yeah yeah exactly exactly he's presupposing like oh what yeah I'm going to presuppose the Quran is like confirming x y and Zed right due to my own Nar read article yeah that's right and it did seem like from his introductory I mean let me repeat that I'm not going to play so introductory but it did seem that way uh 3514 354 so remember that yeah it's right here so no that one okay he presents that then I'm a here it claims continuity and this is a point well understood by both is Scholars and secular Scholars for example Dr Gabriel Reynolds makes his points that the Quran clearly and without doubt claims to be a continuation of scriptures we also have exp verses so for example iny 3 it makes it very clear that the Torah the inil and the Quran are all sent by Allah great we know that the Torah and the inil are sent by Allah great stuff that same Torah and in and the presence of Muhammad are confirmed in the Quran what do I mean by this what I mean is that in verses like Sur 77 Surah 241 Surah 289 Surah 291 Surah 5 43 44 45 46 47 66 and 68 and many many more all demonstrate that the inel and Thor are present and are confirmed by the Quran directly in the Quran itself this leads us with no doubt at all that the Quran absolutely affirms the validity of the and Torah that he's making a point of ab he is he is he is because it says look look at his third premise the Quran contradicts the Torah if it was only slight confirmation it wouldn't contradict it's the very fact that it's full confirmation that that's the reason why it's contradictory such a clown for it doesn't follow if it's a partial confirmation yeah it does yeah and he said it explicitly like I don't know I'll clip this afterwards inshah but he may he made the claim that the same Toran in that was revealed to the prophets of old is present in Medina like he made that claim very clear this guy just keeps shifting it's a common theme throughout the debate he just keeps shifting um although I might have to leave for about 5 to 10 minutes EA that's okay if you could just speak to the chat yeah um let me try to was it 3514 that I okay all right um I'll be back in about 5 to 10 minutes in Salam alaykum and Deb turning off camera to cheat mod constantly looking on Mobile Bel where's the proof that he cheated though there's no proof logic after the stream like after we reviewed the the B if you stick around we're going to post the link and uh you can you can come up you can come up I remember your name you can come up e e there's no cheating and it's funny they have to go to a he cheated because Chris lost the debate so embarrassing to cool someone out and say oh you're cheating it's embarrassing just because you can't respond to the points and um Raven pun you can stay for the rest rest of the live and we can uh invite you up after and you can ask your questions or refute the arguments if you can if you're better than Chris you can come up and you can refute the argument I just realized k inshallah thank you I appreciate it in fact everyone here go watch my recent video and testify testify uh I refuted him and then he made an article in response to me and then I made the response video to testify the article so go ahead and uh watch my new video my channel so test if I refie it youf did you watch it what did you think of it did you like the point of uh of Justin M yeah he didn't he didn't reply to the second video he didn't rep that just the he was trying to say oh like there's lost Prophecies of the Prophet sallallah alai wasallam and then I was like okay that's not a problem because there's lost Prophecies of Jesus according to the early church like Justin M and stuff like this e yeah M we can just say the the corruption occurred early on and we have textual criticism to like back up as well the corruption of uh of gospel and stuff like this and additions and there's a whole array of textual Crim by the way even secular Scholars say the same thing yeah so Mt if you just watched the if you stay around for the full live then we address this all or you can watch proving Islam's video on what is the inil or what is the gospel in Islam you can go go ahead and watch that video as well yeah even like secular scholar say there's like a q Source right which all the gospels like copied of and second Point Jesus in the four gospels according to yourself had a gospel it says in in in The Book of Mark it says that Jesus preached the gospel in galileia where is the Gospel of Jesus do you have the Gospel of Jesus the Gospel of Jesus that is theile it's oral So when you say oh like gospels no it's only one gospel where is it the the Gospel of Jesus it's affirmed in your four gospels you guys believe that Jesus had a gospel where is it that's the question I'm going to ask you where is it it says in the Bible that Jesus had a gospel that's what it says no the in was corrupted in the time of the the prophet sallallahu Al so is the Torah we have hadiths they changed their books he knew of it and he affirms it yeah many hadiths like for example the Hadith of Abbas and the Hadith where the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam says they lied upon their prophets just as they distorted their books no don't worry you didn't um you didn't miss much yeah the is inar 7523 that's the reference yeah yeah yeah so yeah Matthew 4:23 Matthew 4:23 says it that Jesus went throughout Galilee teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel there you go we're asking you the question look at M okay look at Matthew 4:23 it says Jesus was preaching the gospel he had a gospel himself did the ch believe Jesus was God definitely not the early church did not believe Jesus was God not God in as in the same way that the father is God K Eternal they didn't believe that Matt you can uh stick around for the rest how about this Matt you can stick around for the rest of the live and then you can come up we'll send you a link and then you can come up how about this you can come up and we'll send you a link you can come up e yo is just give me about five minutes here I you go do something else yeah sure sure e e e e e e okay I'm back okay I should be able to like not get off anymore I have to get off like for two minutes like in about 30 minutes or so but then after that yeah should should be fine just want to go order some food and should we be done in like 30 minutes minutes anyways yeah probably yeah it just depends I don't know I don't know my my food's going to come in I just had to go order some foods for my sister and myself um let me check the comments you know this Matt guy I've seen him in the comments and I think yeah I was arguing with him when you were gone I've seen him like in I think I saw him in Aver's comment section so he watched the he watched the debate and he's saying like he watched the debate and what I said and he's still asking these questions like what's the N like yeah then he cries had that came for years yeah it's crazy um let me see here is any Udu speakers right uh the circle bro okay H yeah I couldn't go to sha today was meant to Dean what are your thoughts on mu what do you mean on what uh Australia sounds scary not going to lie too many deadly animals trying to watch the internet live and my turn look for to watch there sounds good okay we'll continue the video now was there anything like that someone brought up about the debate that you were talking about or is it just other stuff no just me I gole M half the time okay all right let me play the video now Point having done work and homework on this to prepare for this debate he said the burden of proof is on me the of proof isn't on me at all the Quran affirms theel and Torah we know what theel and Torah are he doesn't argue with me with that he agrees with me he thinks theel is Matthew Luke and John great so why does the CR affirm it when the entire narrative theel the entire Narrative of theel from Matthew Mark Luke to John all affirm some uh some pretty anti-islamic things like Jesus is the son of god that's literally Mark 1 Mark is the earliest gospel it starts off with a Divine Proclamation right at the beginning I mean you know I can't even imagine what you'll do when you get to John but from the very beginning the and narratives are that yeah Jesus is is a Son of God he is divine John 14 vers 13 14 pray to Jesus in his name now answer your prayers John 16:3 everything the Father Knows Jesus knows John 2028 Jesus is called God my Lord my God by Thomas directly these are Central to the narrative the whole like Mark 10:45 right but Thomas saying my Lord and my God isn't part of the it first of all it doesn't he meet the category of what possibly could be theil what possibly could be in the inil is the sayings of Jesus pleas be upon him right even Mark 111 as I said that's the author speaking that's not is I'm speaking [Music] Jesus not here to be served but to serve and he will give his life as a ransom for many that's built into the whole narrative and it's it flows through the entire thing um yeah so the plain reading is that the crown affirms all this stuff at least generally as you say my opponent says generally so I guess generally affirms that Jesus is the son of God generally he was sent to die for the atonment to our sins generally he was sent by the father generally he sent the Holy Spirit after he ascended to the right hand of the father generally he resurrected you see of course generally makes no sense here you Cann apply the term to the makes no sense same with the Torah I guess generally Torah says in Exodus 314 the name of God I guess generally repeatedly throughout the Torah Jesus had sorry repeat throughout the Torah the Hebrew people are referred to as a children of God I mean it's impossible to think of it generally it doesn't even make sense in that context uh you have to be a bit of a crazy person to write a book for example totally contradicts everything Quran says and then for Muslim to come along and say I affirm what's in this book but only generally what does that mean the whole book is is totally anti-islamic from the beginning to the end so how can you affirm it generally now he uses yeah another point is I didn't mention the debate he he's presupposing a Christian interpretation whenever he's saying that oh there's so much that's not reconcilable if you have if you have another lens which is the Islamic lens on interpreting things on what possibly could have been the case then Allah love is actually reconcilable yeah Al so I I demolished that whole oh he's the son of God argument yeah I I brought up that have you seen that verse before Deuteronomy I think it was uh Deuteronomy 13 uh verse 5 where God says uh to the Israelites that but essentially if they're corrupted and they're sinning they're no longer titled as like the sons of God I remember the Quran is the same thing in uh I think it was that he quoted that mentions how can you guys be how can you be titled as the sons of God uh if Allah like punish you for your sins essentially yeah yeah and and notice how the Quran says the sons of God and his loved ones so it it correlates the sons of God being his loved ones and then it makes that you know that thing in Deuteronomy where it says you know if you sin do this then you're not the sons of God what do you mean g a beard have a beard guy said girl a beard uh yeah the quranic criteria to judge this kind of thing he's saying look we can just take the Quran whatever the Quran agrees with that's in the Torah the angel we agree with it as well whatever he disagrees with oh we know that's corrupted first of all this is uh this is basically going in a circle it starts off with the Assumption the CR is true which is the very thing the Islamic D questions so hang on a second you start off with the Assumption the CR is true and you go around to get to the conclusion that the crown is true it's a circular point you can't do that you can't just assume the crown is a criteria unless of course you want to accept that it is a circular argument also notice here had no explicit statements in any of that uh introduction that explicitly said that the inurance were have been corrupted there wasn't anything in there nothing exposit at all the best he could do was 275 275 279 I assume is what he meaning there which is weird because he says it's clear that this involved some sort of universal corruption I mean again my my one of my points was that Universal corruption isn't possible because it has to be done worldwide in all the synagogues in all the churches universally to achieve this he hasn't explained how that's possible I really would like you my opponent Dean to explain how that is possible Universal corruption I don't think it is how long do I left got three minutes okay he said 279 he's like oh yeah it definitely shows that you can do this I'm sorry do you know what alab said about 279 do you know what said about 279 they did not tell what you think to that specific thing they did not say this Universal corruption they tie it to specific actions that happened at the lifetime of the prophet of Jews in particular removing Muhammad's description from the Torah yeah that's not Universal corruption Dean you need to be better with that that's not one example I could have brought is like um where Allah mentions that you can't uh claim that he has children right and this if you look at the they talk about it being attributed to the pagans or the Jews calling um Ezra the Son of God or the angel the daughters of Allah Oram being the Son of God right yeah uh that doesn't mean now if someone in the 21st century claims Allah has a son like some random human today is Allah's son it doesn't mean it doesn't apply to that just because the don't say explicitly that's a general um ruling it doesn't need to say it's a general ruling if the principle is there then it can apply generally unless it it's emphas and it being restricted correct all yeah a lot of your arguments just arguments from Silence which is weird because you've entitled it on your presentation why the argument from Silence I'm like well you're making it I don't need to there's no reasonable expectation that we would have all these things documented in the Islamic tradition why Earth would it be documented Islamic tradition that's biased I mean most Scholars don't even take the stuff seriously as an actual account of his historicity so for that reason I see no reason why I would if you want more that you can look at Dr Jonathan little on his research onto had is and whatnot um so yeah was there any manuscript evidence of this Islamic injy broided Joshua little that's crazy he presented no way any because there isn't any again he has no evidence so he is arguing from just an absence of evidence really um yeah he tried to frame things as like you see how his only resp I bro I specifically didn't mention why um my argument isn't fallacious because I I wanted him to say that I wanted him to say oh it's fous because it's argument from Silence so I could catch him out later and use the point of you don't even understand my whole argument because an argument from Silence isn't fallacious if you expect there to be evidence and I even specifically asked him do you do you know when it's not felicious and he struggled to answer he doesn't even know the basics of like uh debating and and fallacies and he's trying to debate this topic and he's been debating at Speakers Corner for a very long he's been debating at speaker corner for Years bro he doesn't even know when an argument pis isn't fallacious that's embarrassing yeah it's embarrassing me saying the is wrong no it's really simple Muhammad whoever he was just didn't understand what theel and Torah were exactly he couldn't read right so he had to hear things which is ironically also recorded in the Quran mamed is called the ear because he just hears things and he repeats them that would explain why he gets a lot of the stories generally right but then totally contradicts the scriptures without really having knowledge of it he probably thought Chans and yeah he generally affirms the scriptures he just made one point from his perspective the author of the quran's prophet mammad alaihi wasallam he generally affirms the scriptures and then he contradicts it in other parts that's the whole point but he's making the point of he ignorantly does it right and let me just replay that because he's going to backtrack on this later on he's gonna act like this wasn't his pos position also recorded in the Quran Muhammad is called the ear because he just hears things and he repeats them that would explain why he gets a lot of the stories generally right but then totally contradicts the pr scriptures without really having knowledge of it without really having bro I need to time stamp that one second because he shifts um 40 39 [Music] probably thought Christians and Jews were just making it up I didn't realize they were actually coming from scripture yeah then you use the Hadith where and I thought you PIV it to Hadi because again the CR itself cannot be defended alone you have to go elsewhere the Hadith explicitly says oh yeah it's been distorted yeah show me a Hadith say it's been univers corrupted you'll never find one because they don't exist in fact there's vas more T spoken positively than ever spoken negatively you can find people like Dr Gord ni fing this Mar affirming this and even Islamic scholars affirming this this is very basic stuff yeah obviously the Tor inil are going to be spoken about in a good sense because and respected because these are scriptures that are sent from Allah I don't see how that follows that just because they're spoken about in a good sense and not much in a bad sense therefore like the majority of it is meant to be preserved like uh that ises even follow lastly I just want to say you ended that by saying that we were clowns when you resort to insults de it demonstrates the weakness of your position and I would expect better yeah I I should clip this and then um put put the part where he says that I was like cheating and stuff I should just clip this part and then have him saying that I was cheating and like I don't know calling me all these names should probably do that my what's this time stamp from you it's not appropriate for you to insult me or Aver or anyone here instead Choice with your words and ensure that you refrain from insulting anyone during this debate what's more insulting calling someone a clown for holding to a stupid position or insulting someone by claiming they cheated with zero evidence like his evidence was look I was looking down wow what am I doing I'm writing down notes or I'm looking at my phone with like pre pre-done questions because I had the questions done from the day before that's my time thank you so much Chris okay so all right so that's the seven minute re why is there two EA insights what they were cheating when they thought it the debate this the the um yeah I don't know why Issa there's like two accounts that brought up yeah Isa did you see that yeah remember I L out for a sec was it bro it said that there was two accounts yeah yeah yeah my finger was lagging uh it's not insulting to okay let's continue There all right Dean whenever you're ready let me know when Press Start oh yeah you can start now yeah so uh yeah in introductory there was a bunch like bunch of waffle you you were saying that oh there's different opinions between Hamza and John Fain and you having different of opinion okay so what like do the Bible right right so you did the composition FY intr statement as well you assume just because the parts of the Bible therefore has toir all of it that's AR from part to whole When you mention all the stories Abraham and so on address the issue of like affirming the and in Prophet is like a general affirmation you misunderstood that as being like Oh general means oh just like the majority there not really right criteria no I told you the criteria and then you said it was circular well if you're critiquing the planic conception right this isn't like a Christian or Jew that has some conception about the affirming the Bible or anything like that it's the Quran conception of what the in and Torah is it is not circular for me to me to appeal to the Quran standards that is not circular um your point about uh was that I think yeah like sons of God like major alteration no I can accept that during the prophet M time during Jesus time and during the time Old Testament people were alled to themselves as son of godes mention this makes mention to this this was possible used back then with proper meaning this was allowed in a metaphorical sense not in a lital sense in 32 verse5 even makes mention uh that the house of Israel are not titled as sons of God when they sin when and they lose that title right so this in direct parallel with quranic verse that you had in mind vers 18 uh right and then you mention how could be corrupted if how could be corrupted if you would have to grab all the T I never mention that the corruption occurred at the prophet mam the corruption would occur usually at times when there wasn't Mass transmission or lack of people that were literate having access to scriptures right um I don't need to original I think you're confing my position with John Fon I don't need to I accept theor today as being gener from Allah um you how can they follow corrupted in by the way how can they follow a corrupted inil if they're told to judge by it and a half minutes well they're asking the prophet for Judgment of course Prophet is gonna answer from his perspective and say you should follow the commands that are found within your own book it will be hypocritical for you to ask the prophet for judgment when you have generally the Commandments of with him there also makes mention of this where he says that um here this would include parts of the that to do with like idential things such as like forgiving the murderer and and so on these are the things that the Quran does Teach as stuff that possi would have preached and he also made mention that yeah okay why is the not outside of Mark Matthew Luke and John right well I'm not constricted to my definition of it just being Mar Mark Matthew L and John it's I told you it's the commandment seeings and teachings of Jesus PE upon I never constricted it just to Mark Matthew L and John um you also yeah um you restricted to like a word fallacy as well uh like I don't oh sorry Michael's muted yeah I was just uh reading this comment I'm not sure if Avery I don't think Avery would make such a claim I don't think he's that dumb to to make such a claim with limited evidences um yeah I don't know I did message Avery though I did message him and I and I asked him like uh are you going to advise your boy like and he said when you get when you go off camera during the debate for long periods of time it doesn't look good Central did the same thing and actually was cheating you may not have but still wasn't a good look right so he even claims like yeah I may not have Have Cheated he he wouldn't make the claim like like Chris and if you check bro at the beginning when Chris was doing his intro yeah my camera was off right but that was only for about how long was this one two like five just about 8 minutes SE uh maybe about 10 minutes it was about 10 minutes of me having my camera off that was almost for the entire debate after that I kept it on like for the whole time yeah pretty much all right I need to show you something from the Quran this is like uh explicitly saying that everything universally is corrupted of the Tor and this is very analogous to to uh whenever Muslims tell you can you show me one equ unequivocal verse in the Bible that says Jesus Is God say no you know from the meanings the meanings being sh to the text that actually we can from the meaning that he is God right so again you're lacking consistency um right and I think the final thing I'll just make mention is that you didn't yeah you didn't argument about this being like an argument from Silence right arguments from Silence uh arguments from aren't inherently fous they're only fous when you wouldn't expect to be evidence we would expect to be evidence of some sort of reconciliation happening or some some sort of at of prophet just as there was things that happened at proph critiques on the cont of the Quan such as Aon being the brother ofy so you would something to be written there even if you think these are like ad Haw explanations coming from the Quran even if you to think that from your perspective why isn't there some adhoc explanation coming for why the Quran doesn't actually affirm the Bible this such an issue that early Generations Muslim will be exposed to is everyone too obus everyone too Den to see this issue right so this isn't foring argum from to be expected you're going to say that right you don't understand fallacies Chris you don't understand arguments from Silence aren't inherently fous you would expect it to be evidence of someone such critique 1 minute 45 seconds yeah um he never really addressed this throughout the whole entire debate but also uh even if I was to Grant like just from his from his perspective the Quran is giving even if he wants to say this is like ad hoc explanations coming in the Hadith later on or this ad hoc explanations coming from the Quran later on why or when whenever the Quran gives a response to something even if we grant that from his perspective it's not consistent because if it was such a problem and such an apparent problem you would see some sort of Engagement in the Quran or Hadith of this argument but you never see this like ever yeah right um maybe I can get through yeah he mentioned different opinions among like early Muslim Scholars as well there's differing opinions among early Muslim Scholars about so many things right there's almost not a thing you can find within where um they don't actually uh on a consensus agree there's so many disagreements happening ever pertaining to that so yeah there could be different opinions and Scholars could get things wrong totally fine um uh the final thing I'll just say uh is just to clarify again with what I was saying before about General affirmation uh General affirmation being made doesn't include those sort of um things that contradict the Quran right and you made mention of this you know Jesus being crucified and Jesus dying may be mentioned in the gospels and the Quran contradicts that the Quran also contradicts other things that I may mention in my introductory they didn't address where we would expect the quranic author to affirm if the quranic author attitude was actually hey uh all the Bible is preserved he makes mention of the of the story of Exodus from the beginning almost uh regarding the story of Moses the end and there's always some exceptional thing being mentioned where it's clearly intentional where the quranic author says basically this this is what I agree with you haven't addressed this if you're GNA say oh this some or tradition that the is hearing and is mixing up what's the what's the well you need to substantiate that you need to actually show proper evidence that during the time in the proph would recite where he would give these [Music] stories say final substantially that the prophet he says these stories in Medina s mea that he would have Expos these or traditions and it would be consistent with the quranic narrative all right what do you think about my overall like bot yeah yeah it's very solid solid solid raal uh seems like we have some people in the comments that want to come up soon I think there was one guy that was interested in the slam even let me see I know this will never be seen or read by the host I a person with a mental illness and heart problems but I love God but I can't go to the local mask because of my problems yeah sure bro listen if you can if you can stick around till the end of this in we can get some people on including yourself and we can help you out with that in just just stick around for another 30 minutes or so right thank you for that rutto session fellas going into the cross examination so be 10 minutes cross Examination for each party so whenever you um the yeah yes that's one that's cool questions no manuscripts you're ready let me we both me and will start the time sure thing okay so D do you have any manuscripts of either the Islamic T in Indo uh of the uncorrupted form yeah no we don't have any manuscript at the time of Jesus neither at the time of Moses on both no manuscripts okay um do you have any records of es companions quoting the Islamic inil of Jesus companions companions from your perspective the Islam perspective um of the companions quing we have times where mentioned in the qu in the Quran they mentioned where it references times uh stuff found within the gospels yeah mein the Quran are you talking about so I'm talking about from so we have like church fathers that quote the gospels for example so do you have E's companions or some equivalent quoting the Islamic in within the Quran you're asking anywhere it can be any writing no I I don't be condition recorded testimony okay um do you have any evidence at all of any Islam in Torah uh I just told you so it's in an unpreserved form we wouldn't have no evidence of to okay so when was the T corrupted yeah so it would corrupted as I said before during a time where it wouldn't be massively transmitted and like arzi makes mention of this even Tim makes mention of this at times where it wasn't mely transmitted is most likely time was corrupted they make mention of it being possibly doing like the D exile okay so this was I should have mentioned this but we didn't even have one manuscript from the first century of either the disciples or Jesus PE upon Him sayings yeah yeah that's why I told him like I don't see as a necessary condition if if he thinks he requires stuff from the time then yeah I mention this later on I mentioned that like we don't have anything first we don't have any first century manuscripts for either jesus' sayings or um the Torah before Esa y okay es confirmed the Torah that he had yeah he gen confirmed the truth found within it I told like I made mention of this in my opening statement uh I don't think you follow that so a prophet can confirm a corrupted book yes he can gen confirm the truth within the corrupted book yes but he called it the Torah when it's not the Torah is it yes we identify things by um the contents of it being the majority and the majority of the Torah is preserved so he would call iTab he would call it the book of Allah makes mention makes mention of this that the Tor is mostly preserved certainly makes sense that he identif the majority of conents okay is the majority of the in preserved Islam uh no no I wouldn't be able to to know that yeah it's never called kab it's never called kab called the words of Allah mentioned in Parts where to actually apply it it would be titled as in never as those mentioned before so in terms of the speeches Commandments and preachings and Parables uh they're generally found there in semi corrupted forms so if you're going to say in that sense that the speech of of Jesus peace be upon him I wouldn't be mind in saying that there's a good amount preserved with but it's not the majority I would be able to give you like a percentage on theine yeah yeah I wouldn't mind it saying it's majority as in more than 50% I wouldn't mind saying for 10 seconds so even even if I whole position that it's not more than 50% the general confirmation of Jesus St it's not it doesn't have to be more than 50% is what I'm saying wait so it doesn't have to be a majority no I thought you said earlier as long as it was a majority when you talk about Torah no think the guy doesn't understand that I have independent reasons to think that the Torah is majority preserved because it's constantly called or that they recite the words of Allah from it or it has the H of Allah but for the inil it's never described in that way so when I tell him that yeah it makes sense that the majority of the contents would be in there because because it wouldn't be appropriate to call um it wouldn't be appropriate to call the book of Allah the book of Allah so if the majority is not there I gave independent reasons for the Torah like why why do I have to if the conditions aren't meant by the in why do I have to have the same approach I don't understand saying that I was saying that that's a point that makes sense that you identify something by majority of contents it's it's an intuitive point that I'm saying regarding the Torah it's not a consistent approach where you have to apply this for every single thing it's not a consistent approach yeah so you have one approach for the tour this is no this is one justification for the tour specifically it's not a justification for the in but the in is affirmed as a reserved inspired and authoritative book likeor is you're aware of that in the Quran in a general sense yes but so you can generally affirm the minority part of a book no it's generally affirming a good chunk of the book it doesn't a majority as I said so a minority a minority if you're saying minority is in less than 50% I can't give you an exact percentage I'm asking for exact percentage just just like if it's not the majority that you're referring to it must be the minority so a prophet can come Ander affirm the minority of a book he can affirm the contents that are from God even if it's a minority okay where did he explicitly point out all the cases uh where it agrees and where it doesn't agree sorry so in the Quran where does it explicitly point out the parts that it agrees with and are preserved and it points out the parts that are corrupted and it does not affirm yes so are you talking about specifically n here yeah yeah yeah in the there are Parts like the parable of the 10ins that's mentioned in the Quran um that that is contrasted and there's Parts in there where the quic author obviously edits the parable okay but how do you know specifically what parts are preserved and what parts aren't Yeah by what's confirmed in the Quran okay so if the Quan is silent about an issue what do you do agnostic I mentioned this in my introductory okay so let's take for example in the Torah in Genesis 1936 I believe I'll get the verse up it talks about L having sex with his daughters air no it doesn't affir it does it deny it it denies this uh by extension of profets not being able to commit major sins what does it say that it's an inference it's not verb in it's extrapolated in from other quranic verses and they mentioned how prophets can't lie how how yeah can can you finish so there's other so there's other verses that make mention of prophets not lying as well as whenever we do see operations they're usually in Parts where prophets do sin so Aaron for example creting the golden cough or for example David peace be upon him and murder instead in the Quran this is replaced with obviously a parable being given so many instances this is the cas the Quran or solom disbelieving so on these cases the consistently edits these passages so you can infer from that that this would be something that would be I still got three minutes left no no if you oh sorry oh I'm Tripp I'm tripping no it's seven minutes isn't it no no 10 that's my fault sorry my good okay cool I continue right yeah I pause your time for yeah and um he didn't understand that we don't need an explicit verse to condemn some or not condemn but to reject something in the Bible there's like principles you can extract from the Quran but based on the contents it doesn't have to be Reb yeah yeah you could have you could have also brought up the like the Hadith that while the agreed that a condition of a condition of prophethood would be that the person wouldn't commit major sins and the agreed on this on and the prophet s wasam said in that my will never agree on M guidance they won't come to an agreement andma basically on Mis guidance they could have used that point as well yeah it's s but I use the theat to like substantiate that um like certain lies are permissible and like to show that none of these are actually sins and then he was like oh but you're not using the Quran like he was guting some uh but honest for a second so right now I got two minutes and 40 seconds left okay coot so in the in the Torah it makes it clear in Genesis 1936 that lot had sex with his daughters the Quran however never explicitly denies this or even says this didn't take place in fact the Quran seems to infer the prophet sin so why I just accept that this did actually happen because the Quran seems to refer this as a principle yeah so the conception that the Quran presents is one of is that actually Avery I doubt I doubt it no obiously it's not it's not proph being able to commit meaning like sins but in in a minor sense not in a major sense I gave you inferences that Scholars would bring that would deny these particular instances as being you know these major sins because it's a consistent theme but the Quan does reject these narratives in the Bible that accuse these prophets of doing heinous deeds and major sins so it's a principle that's extrapolated in inferred from from the text would you still hold that principle if I could show you that actually in the CR it still even does a fir profit doing s for example M killing an unarmed person potentially a Believer yeah uh that wouldn't be considered a major sin because uh firstly that was like you can explain this in so many ways first of all the legislation from God hadn't been given to M Alam on particular particularly on this account secondly M Alam when he didn't unive this person he was doing it on the pretense that this person was unjustly harming someone and lastly he didn't mean to actually kill this person he meant only to push him away did Abraham Li yeah uh those those lies that Abraham committed uh were white lies or they there seem to be lies that were would be permissible aren't seem to be sense how do you know they permissible yeah so there are certain cases where people can commit White Lies for example or Islam paradig this is okay so the Quan is not criteria for you the Quran is part my crer you're asking me from my perspective I use the Quran itself though is not a criteria it is not in a sense that 548 would have you assume oh it is it definitely is and because it is it tells me to go to the Hadith and because the Criterion and thean and the guardian tells me to go to the tells me prophesy I extrapolate contents from there as well so this is consistent within the Nar okay so the Quran tells you that it's a criter and you go to you go to other things okay I if you wanted to just last ask that last I'll let Dean respond to that too since or is that it good there yeah yeah so I'll that so um part of it being part of let's let him restate because I last question Chris oh well so yeah you keep you have said I know it's a position that you take that you hold to 48 as mentioning the Quran as a criteria over the PRI scriptures but I'm pointing out that you actually don't hold this position actually hold is a position where you take the Quran and other things that include Hadith schools of scholarly Works actually that's a criteria so in effect Islam is a criteria right so can ask a clarifying question for that sure okay do you the Quran says it's the Criterion or it's the M this is used in absolute sense or just general you think you think the Quran is a criter over even what's right and wrong in a math equation I don't think the actual uh word properly means Criterion why use the ter crer I don't understand okay yeah okay sure so then then want I ask you the question you should be answer that's fine okay but Chris can never track an internal critique versus external critique like ever he could just consistently can't [Music] track we gotta get to your side so the point is is that it's a Criterion in a general sense that's the first thing the second thing is that the Quran yeah no because I was letting you ask that last question and was supposed I'm finish up so the Quran tells me it's a Criterion it's MIM in a general sense it's not absolute yet again it's like a Sho horn of a contention and secondly as part of being the criter it points me towards stuff that such as theith such as going to the people of knowledge that will help me in determining um to distinguish between right and wrong also so that's part of it being the all right thanks for that so now we're gonna go ahead and hand it over to you Dean let me know hey what was your overall view on on that yeah overall was good bro yeah as people were saying in the comments like this was very irrelevant whether he sinned or not he he wasted a good chunk of his questioning on on these irrelevant stuff even hypothetically I'm not saying I'm conceding it hypothetically if I concede this point what does it have to do with Quan affirming the Bible like I don't understand yeah when you want me to press the start button and you can go ahead and start your cross yeah sure just give me just give me about a minute okay in the meantime everybody make sure you hit the like button if there are um Muslims in the chat I would like for you guys to uh have some questions ready for Chris when we finish this up because Ibrahim made an excellent point that we do have a majority Christian audience so most of the questions are gonna go from for him so we're gonna pick three and three and so um Muslims in the chat please come through and get your questions ready for Chris um so that we can have a balanced q& all right Dean let me know yes so you can start now all right um so Chris do you believe that the author of the Quran is trying his best to present a consistent non-contradictory message to the the masses in order for to convert to Islam aw okay that's a big question um yeah well I I don't actually think that the Quran is written to be specifically historical I think it's more written to be pical so that's why I think it incorporates um things that are outside mat John for example because I don't think it cares about whether that's historically true or not I think it's more trying to demonstrate that Muhammad is a Prophet by having these accounts refer back to please answer yeah please answer the question so the question is is be more concise in your question is so was was that question not clear like he was completely not answering it yeah he's cing yeah I think this section is where he gets exposed the most I asked him the same question like three times yes is is the Quran okay to it simply is the Quran trying to present a consistent non-contradictory message it depends how you mean that so if the quranic author is presenting a an account or a narrative with within 114 chapters you ask you ask me for clarification let me clarify is is the quranic author trying his best not to have contradictions within his book to be honest I'm not sure if it is one author is the quranic author or authors um trying their best to be consistent uh I don't know like yeah I guess i' would say generally yeah but again you need to be more specific about what you're talking about here why does it matter if it's specific or not just it's a question like okay obviously if the author of the Quran is trying to have people convert to the religion and is claiming there wouldn't be contradictions in their book as a condition of of it being from God then obviously he's trying to his best to present a consistent message to have people convert like it was very simple I should I should have pressed him on that and been like bro it's a simple question just answer like I'm I'm making it very clear for you and you're just waffling around yeah yeah that's another point I immediately answered all of his irrelevant questions like bang bang bang bang like straight away and for him he would not like for the first question the very first question is the author of The Quan trying to present a consistent message like don't ask would the quic author want a p and not P within his book it simply would he want a contradiction in his book would he TR best not to have contradiction again myew on this is 82 says multiple contradictions show the crime is not from God it doesn't say singular contradiction so I actually don't think that's the intent to worry about singular contradictions from a c perspective okay sure that's crazy what what an interpretation I've never heard heard that before you know that's crazy the quran's saying if a condition for a book to be from God is that it doesn't have many contradictions if it has a couple it's fine what when he has to take these like like these really weird T of ayas then you know he's coping for example he takes this weird interpretation of that Quran verse as well as another weird interpretation on Islam not being crucified or dying it just shows like he has to resort to these really weird interpretations uh to rescue his uh his argument which shows you how weak it is yeah yeah that is that is an answer okay I mean ask concise questions if you ask my opinion about things I'll give you my opinion is that is pretty concise okay so do you believe the author of the Quran would be aware of the contents of at the time so the gospels at the time of the Prophet would they be consistent sorry would they be aware of the content that Jesus died and resurrected within the gospel so would you be aware that this is the content of In Time see my view is that he was aware of a lot of the in and he was aware of a lot of the Torah but he wasn't able to distinguish between what was written in scripture and what Christians and Jews were simply saying and that's why you have a lot of hesitation from had these material later on about don't trust what they say um right right right so the chonic author knows that he's possibly either contradicting our tradition or contradicting the Bible he's uncertain um well I mean I think he probably thinks that he knows that he's got it right I think that's what he's banking on yeah right but he knows it's a possibility because you it's a jab in the dark he's jabbing in the dark doesn't know it's old tradition doesn't know it's the Bible and yet is editing these Traditions he's hearing he knows it's possible that he's editing the Bible at this current Point what is written he knows that's a possible thing that is correct yeah I mean it depends if you heard the correct all tradition right because all tradition can have variance in it yeah yeah so so the Quan author knows it's possible he's editing content within the scriptures meaning uh another question yeah he Bas he basically did con the debate there he's winning to gr yes s go Y no I agree he just he just conceded uh press them on this this point here yeah basically the quranic authors depending on a source that that can either have um uh biblical sources uh written biblical sources or um or Traditions that aren't biblical and the quranic author doesn't mind editing either one right he's not able to distinguish between the two and he's willing to uh to addit both of them is uh do you believe Au of the plan would know that God rested do Au the know that God rested um it yeah he could have heard it yeah and has no a to distinguish between it being the Torah it being like a like a random tradition or tradition is that correct um yeah I mean he himself according to the Isam narth can't right so he actually can't verify it but again from your perspective you just said that you don't believe the author is is the prophet so you're shifting you back do you believe the authors the prophet or not it's BR did you hear it before how he was like yeah the author of the Quran would be very very familiar with all these Traditions but at the same breath he's saying well he would he wouldn't be able to distinguish between eing the Tor or not yeah yeah literally so you would be there's many authors but one probably is someone who was referred to Muhammad yes right okay it seems like whenever it benefits you you say it's Muhammad when it doesn't benit you say it's a group right no this my opinion that I've stated on my channel many times so do you believe that um the auor of the Quran would be exposed to some uh some material that was the one that created the golden cough and not Aaron could potentially be the case yeah do you have any evidence for this um no it's completely out talk nice okay well I mean be explain somehow right so has yeah explain I can't engage sorry my bad okay what do you think about that it's not just that he has to give like really bad interpretations of quranic verses but he also have to give ad hoc reasons completely conspir reasons on why the author of the Quran is presenting these things right like some random a tradition about as Sam making the golden C like he's essentially doing what John fontaine's doing with like oh there's a different Torah and a different injil but he doesn't he doesn't realize that yeah yeah uh okay do you believe that an argument from Silence is inherently fous or is it only fous in certain conditions yeah that's correct um I mean I don't it be very direct yes you're correct that Sil argument from Silence is not necessarily flous it depends on the context right in what context is it not fous where it wouldn't be expected right where where it wouldn't be expected no where it would be expected you mean it wouldn't be fous sorry yeah would can't even track a basic fallacy yeah um I don't yeah that you know that actually just makes me think that um it makes me think that he doesn't actually understand the arguments I'm saying cuz he can't even track the fallacy itself and how it applies so how's he going to understand the argument like maybe they should have had someone else that's like more educated to Deb me okay would you expect that the Christians and Jews at the time of the Prophet sallam would be do you expect that at least one person at of the Prophet would notice that there's apparent contradiction here it depends on all Traditions are saying it seems like you're positing a conspir or tradition or Tor you John F here um it's it's not I mean okay so let's go the right MTH luk John but did they also think that there were sayings of Jesus and other stuff that would explain why includes it so do you have any evidence of these extra extra biblical narrations or Traditions are any positing that as an ad explanation it's the best explanation by influence the fact that the CRI quotes indirectly yeah the alternative would be reveal them you know he basically ConEd there's actually a good point for John Fontaine and his view he basically conceded that it's either there is another Torah or Allah revealed this obviously I would say um well obviously even if there's another Torah that's not me exclusive to Allah revealing it but yeah um the point being that John Fon can use this like if the people at the time in Medina are they have like an uncorrupted Torah and that's the reason why they're not bringing this up as an argument or they have a certain or tradition that varies from the Torah and that's the reason why they're not noticing this argument then he's basically making john fain's argument for him he didn't realize all right um did Jesus uh believe in all of the oral law phes were teaching say no uh do you believe in Matthew 23 Jesus commanding the disciples to obey absolutely everything that the phes teach is it absolutely everything yeah okay he's not right so you believe this is a general statement where Jesus is saying to obey the phes where there's exceptions and it's not an absolute thing right mhm why don't you have that level of uh charitability when you read the Quran very simple because the Quran makes AB BR he he got demolished at that point he basically ConEd the bit here as well like he's showing that he's being inconsistent he wants to read the Quran in an uncharitable way but no no no with my gospels you got to read in in charitable way yeah incredibly inconsistent absolutely clear that it affirms the inur you have nothing to stand on unless you stand on the in the in was revealed from God and yeah you have to stand on Christians and you will be considered disbeliever if you don't then as you admitted the major narrative is one that Jesus is the son of God Jesus is divine you admitted that Sor s that's Ring just bring ups are Hadi authentic according to you uh it's unknown it's unknown so how can you posit that you wait you posit it before did you not pause it before that the Hadith are just basically you can just dismiss all them yeah from a historical point of view yes which many scholars hold that view because it's impossible to know to trace back the science of ad for example there's been many criti of so yeah you don't know is the honest answer right so is there anything specifically when I give you the the prophet says himself that the and Tor they distorted their books and it's authentic ACC tol you have anything on with you right now that would lead you to assume that this particular is an authentic from the prophet my critique is that it doesn't say what you think it says it doesn't refer to Universal corruption so so you believe that the prophet you can see within that that the prophet is saying that and Tor during time people are corrupting it yeah like that's that's obvious in the text it's just that you want to INF from that Universal corruption and that's what I Deni and I asked you to give proof you haven't given it um so you appeal to um it was gabri Reynolds is Gab Reynold a SCH you to someone you your videos correct does he believe edit material that he hears from the Jews and Christians I think he's very carefully diplomatic about that my understanding exp as he doesn't explicitly say I think he tries to be very uh critical but not um uh making his opinions known he tries to stick purely to scholarship well gabri Reynold says in his book the Quran and the Bible um says he says in page three the Quran has not simply borrowed material from Jews or Christians this is just page three of his work the Quran has not simply borrowed material from Jews or Christians instead has consciously reshaped biblical material to advance its own religious claims are you sure you're not quoting someone who gives a for word because this this is Gabriel say Reynolds book page three the Quran and the Bible his comment okay well maybe just maybe I'm misten do you have any other scholar you have any scholar that affirms your view that the Quan absolutely not my view it never has been my view in this not my view my view yeah let me let me put up the square actually that was hilarious okay um this up here we go so Gabriel s Reynolds is like a scholar he if you look at the debate during his intro he says his name about six or seven times if I remember correctly and he doesn't even his position on the Quran which is crazy so yeah he's not conservative about his view or whatever he wants to say whatever like stuff he was saying he explicitly says in p three of his work it's in an introduction on his commentary to the Quran the Quran has not simply borrowed material from Jews or Christians instead it has consciously reshaped biblical material to advance its own religious [Music] claims so yeah um uh okay so we are going into the thre minutes uh closing oh are we going to do Q&A before closing or after after okay after after all right so hold on let me get ready three minutes closing up whenever you feel like it uh Chris I'll just address the audience you let me know when you're ready everybody make sure you guys hit the like button on the stream um Muslims again like should we go through the conclusions or just end it here with like some people coming up yeah let end it here and have people to come up for like like the question right sounds good all right guys I'm going to send the link in for about 20 minutes or so inah okay so I'm going to prioritize uh members the members will come up first if you guys want to support me uh there's my patreon and YouTube membership links in the description andah it's help me do that full time and take time out of work and out of studies out of other things in order to do this um um there's my patreon YouTube membership you also get a Discord access to a Discord server an exclusive one with myself with immediate contact to myself and uh there's also GoFundMe link if you want to help me with uh doing da fulltime inah be much appreciated also be sure to subscribe to asa's channel in he helps me with a lot of my videos and he'll be uploading more content soon as well okay there's no one that that's coming up oh now we got someone oh like can you hear me okay yeah we can hear all right what do you think about the debate yeah so I've been listening to um God for a while can you hear me okay yeah we can hear you yeah yeah the the debate was very good um I'm hearing an echo though let me try to read okay um yeah so the the debate was was well done um I see a lot of fallacies that both God logic and Chris have um I wanted to mention a couple of points that uh I think were kind of important um maybe you covered them a little bit but not directly um so the Bible that existed in Arabia was more the syak version of it right yeah I would agree y do you agree with that yep I would agree with that yeah and then the Ethiopian Bible was a different Bible right um to anian Bible had like The Book of Enoch and it had other gospels other igas yeah um The syak Gospel gospel were a collection of different books maybe ma Mark Luke and and John were in there but it would not have been probably not canonized that way right yeah I don't have a sense I don't have a sense when the Quran talks about the Torah and injil that it's restricted to any sort of Canon yeah so I I think exactly exactly so I think the fallacy that these guys are making like God logic and Sam shiman and all these all these guys um they are assuming that the canonized version that we have today was the only Bible that was Authority right but in the Quran it talks about things that are not in those canonized Bible for example when Isa um you know took the bird and brought it back to life right these are not found in the Bible today right yeah they'll be most likely found in the that one will be found in the infancy gospel right right exactly so they're in other sources yeah agreed yep right and then there's other things that you would find in like the Thomas's gospel or or Barnabas uh gospel um so the the thing that like if they're going to say that that we think that the inil is the canonized version today I would say it's not like the would have been a lot of different collections of writings that include Mark Matthew Luke and John right yeah that's that's my position my position is that any Source from the Christian side whether it be the Gospel of Thomas the Gospel of Barnabas um the infancy gospel any sort of gospel at the time it would be it wouldn't be restricted to any of them it would be a general affirm of truths from any of the Christian sources that the Quran confirms right it's not restricted to any sort of Canon exactly yeah and I I think like the thing that should have been made clear to them is that we believe that the inil is what Jesus taught to the people as in his sayings so for example if I took if I took the uh the songs of solom Solomon right um if I took those and I wrote A Commentary about it and I and I misinterpreted the the songs in my commentary I could say that hey you know um I believe in the what was said by Solomon I mean by David I can agre with that right it doesn't mean that you agree with the um with the commentary you agree that that what was preserved in the commentary was the same with the songs right that's right that's right say again no I'm saying yeah I agree with that and I did mention I did I didn't mention this in my intro that my view I think my view and yours are the same that g um when when Mark Matthew Luke and John talk from the perspective of jesus' biography and not his actual sayings and teachings that's not the inil right what is in what the inil is is whever would say like a parable or a commandment or a teaching but this is an absolute obviously there'll be there'll be times where it would contradict the Quran or at times where it's not affirmed by the Quran but there there are other times where it does actually conform to the Quran but definitely definitely what would never be the inj even even possibly so would be some biographical information of Mark did this Luke did that Thomas said this that's not the inil yeah but I I so I I don't think right yes but I I do think that the Quran affirms that these gospels existed with the Christians because it does talk about the Trinity or the um but it talks about the inil is preserved in those right which is what I think the classical position of most of the Islamic SCH is right of course yeah isak uh quotes John the pericet um very very early Muslim scholar and he and he calls parts of John the yeah that's right right yeah I I I I think where Avery and these guys get hung up is is they they believe that the Muslims think that there was another kind of book that existed that is no longer around right but I don't think they understand that to be fair but but to be fair as well so sorry I think there's a bit of a delay so sometimes if I interrupt you or yeah yeah major delay but if you just bear with it um uh I think as well some Muslims do hold to that view and that's what's a bit like frustrating it is a valid position but it do cause AIT confusion I realize but I don't think that's the majority definitely not definitely not definitely not the classical View and definitely not the majority view that's right yeah and I I think it needs to be clear to them that the majority opinion is that inil is preserved in what exists today but again what exists today is a commentary or is in the interpretation of the Greeks uh sorry of the Romans um it's their interpretation of what Jesus meant and that's where they went wrong and that's what the Quran tries to correct that's right that's right yeah so um I mean I think you did a good job I think um you know I'm not sure Chris was convinced but you know did did well yeah I felt the need to do the debate after the John Fontaine debate I think John fontain did well in terms of like R I'm not sure if you watched did you watch that debate yeah yeah so John font would be I mean I've been watching this from way back so I'm kind of caught up on everything that's been going on right and yeah I felt like the need to go ahead and debate these guys um with the classical view like the view that me and you hold to in that the theil is contained within the gospels and the Torah is contained within parts of the Testament I felt they need to do the debate and alhamdulillah like the reception for the most part has been good um and yeah alhamd I think I think it was overall like like a big success alhamdulillah yeah all right um I mean I think that was all I had um I did have a question but I forgot now uh if you want if you want we I can get you back on if you do remember the question and I'll just proceed with the other people for now yes okay sounds good no worries Salam alikum look okay damn that delay was a good minute crazy crazy delay bro not going to lie you having a Christian I'm Muslim aldah I have a question Alum so like during the debate right you said um in the beginning that you like not the beginning by the the end you see like you affer most of the um Torah being from Allah correct y so like how do you reconcile with like Old Testament Scholars claiming that like each book of the Torah has like a couple different a couple different um authors and they edited like throughout it's its entirety right so we don't have any manuscripts at the time these are just like compared compared to New Testament scholarship I think the Old Testament is is much easier to to defend um I mean at the end of the day it's not it's not a position that I'm binded to like with um someone could hold to another view and say well not not most of it is preserved I hold to like something closer to ib's view that most of it's preserved that's majority of the classical scholarships view on this but it's not it's not something that's binding like you can hold to a different view that's perfectly fine if the if if if the scholarship says that well some scholarship says hadiths are in reliable what do you want me to do with that right so like I don't need to understand but like yeah I was going to say um my another point in regards to like U multiple offers like that being a multiple offers wouldn't really be a problem like we're not saying like the left is uh mostly preserved we're not saying the left is mostly preserved we're saying the meaning like the meanings are going to be like mostly preserved right that's that's that's the position doesn't mean like every like letter and every haraka is like preserved it's not the meaning yeah we're not we're we're not saying that yeah that's another point we're not saying verbatim it's preserved that's one secondly also what needs to be bear in mind is sorry one second yeah sorry so so another another thing to bear in mind is that we believe with the Old Testament there was this chain of prophets that that came right there was a there's chain of prophets that preserved the the Torah yeah with the in we don't have that we have a chain of prophets preserving it right so so so after alterations would come to the Old Testament there would be new prophets uh maintaining it obviously from a secular perspective that they're going to presuppose naturalism they're going to assume a naturalistic view of History where they don't believe prophets are coming with um uh actually helping helping with the preservation of yeah like it's like um one of the uh bad things about orientalist uh scholarship but like um a question I'd have was would be like U I mean I guess if you don't if you don't hold to the view that it's it's um what's the word um preserved in its entirety or like it's not binding to you then it doesn't really matter that' be it though sorry did you ask a question at the end I didn't catch up I mean if you if you can it's not like relevant but like can you answer that uh that um what's it called another view like in SCH that the Torah isn't very monotheistic and it's actually polytheistic as like a Divine Council like tons of gods and stuff like how do how do we reconcile this or just steal man that we don't need it we don't we don't really care yeah I mean there could be Pagan elements in it yeah that we just say those aren't the ones that affirmed like when I say General affirmation majority's preserve yeah like there's exceptions to that right uh there could be elements that are monotheistic that had some parts of polytheism seeped within it but the origin of a lot of the essence of what it's saying is preserved uh but just has like polytheistic elements added to it which is true like yeah that that's possible uh we don't need to reconcile certain parts of the Torah like having parts that are pagan or not you can also there's also a case to be made of uh aot of monotheism being in there as well so yeah like again so it's the same thing they're going to think that well religions are going to progress books are going to progress and the religions will deviate there's no prophets coming in there's no um uh yeah as I said there's no prophets coming that's that's trying to preserve the scripture it's just uh person after person coming within historical chain and they're all just continuing the progressiveness of the scripture right but we obviously we don't accept that okay I think thank you that'd be it BR doing the Torah Poetics in 2024 bro crazy no uh Kevin you Muslim asalam alikum sorry uh new revert of islamd uh I have a question uh the debate I I believe the debate was uh successful uh I believe uh Chris uh told you a question and I just wanted to know I think he said do we have any manuscripts to prove of the inel any evidence and I wanted to know do we necessarily have to uh provide any evidence of any manuscript of the Torah of the inil uh to prove to prove whether or not theel existed or not we already have manuscripts in theel which is like the gospels right but what he was what he was asking for is like a completely preserved inil uh that's being quoted from in the first century I guess that's what he was asking for right okay okay yeah yeah as well as uh you know it's really interesting uh have you ever heard of something called The Q Source no the Q source is basically where like uh it's basically where like Mark and Matthew and other gospel writers basically copied of this is like Q source that all the gospels like link back to and it was basically a sayings it was like the teachings of Jesus right so like when when when people say oh can you show manuscript for the in right we're going to say what corruption happened very early on and they don't even have a single manuscript from the first century themselves like do you know when the earliest gospel manuscript is not that I'm aware of it's a p52 and that's dated if if you're being generous really generous it's like second century right so like this like a q source is would be quite similar to the would say but we don't have it and uh the majority of scholarship uh admits that there was this Q source that you know Matthew and Mark and all of these gospels basically link back to right so we don't have to show we can just say you're make an argument from Silence because you guys yourselves don't even have a single manuscript from the first century and from the second century from 200 years you guys have very little manuscripts have maybe one or two couple here and there that are like the size of credit cards right yeah exactly it's very rich it's very rich that a Christians asking for manuscript evidence as ASA is saying right they have zero manuscripts in the first century of of their gospels right and we as Isa said we didn't even claim that the uh inj was written to begin with oh yeah thank you I just wanted to know uh well yeah may Allah bless you for all your efforts uh and hopefully one day I can also do something like you um but yeahum thank you what I just W to um add one more thing oh de may Allah bless you for defending Islam may Allah may Allah May I'm staring my bad but may Allah may Allah bless you so but one thing you also want to add for the gospel manuscript is that most TR most and I'm going to compare with Quran is that the earliest manuscript we have for Quran can date back to the prophet peace be upon him but other but for Isa at Camp the oldest manuscript that I found dided at least I'll say 100 AD and that's like 100 years after Prophet Isa Prophet isa's Ascension and if you go more than that even early Christians were debating that some of them debated that hold on my bad I'm start on again a lot of a lot of early Christians also argued that the Bible was also corrupted yeah Isa talks about this on his channel is which which church fathers were there there was uh Justin Martin and JN christm who argu like the Old Testament was corrupted and you know the Jews basically changed prophecies and hid prophecies about Jesus and other figures and stuff like this like uh specifically just the Martin dialogue of Tria he argues that Jeremiah and other books and stuff of the Psalms was changed around and John of chrism when he's asked about Matthew 2:23 about where is this in the Old Testament the prophecy about Jesus he says many prophecies were lost and that the Jews basically changed stuff and stuff was lost at time due to their sins and stuff like this so yeah it's this this view of like a Bible in infallibility where like everyone says the Bible's like fully preserved uh word for word this wasn't even a case in the early church like a lot of the Jews uh a lot of the Christians believe that the Jews changed scriptures and stuff like this so it's like going to be inconsistent with like the early church and what makes it crazy is that Justin Martin these people are making firstand claims like just the mar even says that this bit in Jeremiah was cut out recently from the Jews and you can still find this prophecy of uh the so-called prophecy of Jesus still around in the second century so David going to have two options they're going to say like just Mar was lying and this prophecy wasn't actually just cut out in the second century or just m is telling the truth and they're going to have to that the Bible has been changed in some regard yeah uh so maybe this will be the last guest inah are you there yeah I'm still here but I'm about I gotta leave go to sleep now you're good if have any questions still you can drop it fore leave no that was all I had to say I appreciate oh he just dipped yeah we can come back oh do you know him no no I don't know I don't know maybe he'll come back some someone in the comments said uh ping ping this comment jermiah 88 was definitely affirmed by the Quran do final guest in then end end the live here am I coming clear okay alhamdulillah first of all brother de for all you have done and all you are doing for the sake of Allah may Allah reward you J inshallah and reward you in this life and the live Hereafter I know that you sound like sounds like an Arab I've seen and you sound very very young maybe you maybe you are even younger my son I would like to share something with you and I hope that you do not mind please and you accept it from an old man if that okay with you Allah said in verse 29 he told him to remind Allah said in verse he said in verse 21 and also in verse 55 so Allah ordered Prophet Muhammad to remind everybody and Prophet Muhammad is our model it's our role model so this is a reminder for myself before I remind other in and I hope that you'll accept it from me and I'm sure that you know that Allah subhah wa tala says in the Holy Quran in verse 68 which means I when you see those who engage in offensive discourse concerning our verses then turn away from them turn away from them until they enter into another conversation and if Satan should cause you to forget then do not remain after the reminder with the wrongdoing people who they are cursing mocking Allah and our beloved Prophet Muhammad Allah said again inaha verse 140 which means and it has already come down to you in the book The Holy Quran that when you hear the verses of Allah recited they are denied by them and ridiculous making fun of it Mar it insult so do not sit with them until they enter into another conversation indeed you would then be like them Allah will gather the Hypocrites and and those disbelievers inheld together so those are two very explicit and clear verses we call it not from the ambiguous it is the explicit clear verses from Allah tala that Allah forbid us as a Muslim to stay among those who they are mocking and cursing Allah subhana wa tala I know you are doing this for the sake of Allah and may Allah accept this from you and reward you J inshah my advice for you was you were not supposed to do this debate in his channel number one because in the live chat they were all mocking cursing and insulting Allah and our beloved Prophet Muhammad so as a Muslim I was order with Allah not to stay with such people so therefore I did not join the debate I left number two to ask a question as a Muslim he always ask for Super Chat Super Chat is to give money donate money to him and his channel so do you expect any Muslims to come and donate money to such person who only Mark Allah and Prophet Muhammad to ask a question of course nobody will do that so my advice for you if you have any plan to have a second debate with them don't ever do a debate with them in their own channels because when you do it you only benefit them you promote them you advertise them and they are making more money out of making Allah and Prophet Muhammad your intention is good alhamdulillah I know but their intention is not as good yours their intention is to make more cash by using you for them you are nothing but an investment so when they invest talking with you they earn more cash so inshallah in the future I hope you'll accept this advice from an old man don't do it in any one of their channels either do it in a Muslim Channel or in any other side Channel and before you do it make sure that there is no marking or insulting neither in the debate or during or in the chat box because that's Haram I hope that you accept this from me number two he's asking about the what is the original why Allah did not preserve the original inil like he said about the Allah I promised to secure and preserve the Holy Quran but he never promised to secure and preserve the injil or the Torah and Allah said in the Holy Quran very clear in verse 38 chapter 13 ver8 38 this is the most important which means we have sent many Messengers before you and we assigned to them also wives and children and no messenger had the power to show any sign without the sanction of Allah every age had its book every generation every time has its own book Allah says again again inah 3: 49 and he will be about a messenger to the children of Israel so from those two verses we understand that Allah was telling us that Allah sent for every time and age a holy book temporarily for a specific time not for good and specific people not for all man Allah sent inil the gospel to ISA as a messenger to the children of Israel as Allah said and a messenger to the children of Israel in the time of Jesus peace be upon him not to the world but for a specific time and a specific nation and Allah did not bed whatsoever to preserve it as Allah bleed to preserve the Holy Quran because Allah sent the Holy Quran For All Mankind and all time and bl to preserve it unlike the inil or the T Allah send it for a specific people the people of Israel for a specific time temporarily and Allah Never Bleed to preserve it this is an answer from an Islamic perspective if you want to answer him about the inil or what he calls the gospel from a Christian perspective Subhan Allah it's very we can tell them you have the gospel of Matthew Gospel of Luke Gospel of Mark Gospel of John can you please present me the Gospel of Jesus the gospel of Isa that been revealed to ISA as your Bible says that God sent him a revelation and you read this in Revelation chapter 1 verse one the revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave andto him revelation of Jesus Christ God gave Jesus Christ a revelation so this prove that this Revelation is also a book being given to ISA according to Revelation 1:1 so my question to the Christians can you please present me this revelation of Jesus Christ The Gospel of Jesus Christ as you present the gospel of Matthew Luke Mark and John if you present me this inil that your book spoke about Revelation 1:1 that's the time I will tell you this might be the gospel of Isa so I hope that was beneficiary for you I love you all for the sake of Allah and I'm sorry if I spoke long forgive me that's perfectly fine you're more than welcome to come in every time and yeah obviously uh you're 100% right I wasn't looking at the comments at the time I didn't notice the amount of blasphemy but even I saw Christians after the time on his channel mentioning how much blasphemy there was during the debate I think it's a common theme now like from what I've seen in channels where the majority of the comments are actually Blasphemous even though like they're just Hypocrites because their doctrines is that you should even love your your enemy they are not hypocrite they are kufar yeah even even worse they are KU words they are I'm sorry to interrupt I will say something lastly actually I am I am plugged from his channel I've joined him several times when he kept me backstage for more than two hours several times and I have it all recorded and he said I will never ever let you join my live stream because I know all his boys I have long history with them 30 years ago like Sam Shimon knows me and I know him very well and we have good history Long time ago 301 30 years ago during the days of palok and he also plugged me I know Chris CLA Santa Claus who started eight years or nine years ago and P as well I know all of them and they know me and I'm bled from all their channels and that's a blessing from Allah tala so I will not go there and have a discussion with them in their own channels so I hope that you accept it from me you are doing Mah a good job you are a very young man how I wish when I was at your age I had the knowledge that you have now and I was doing what you are doing may Allah reward you so in next time try to avoid to do any debates in their Channel therefore no Muslims ask you a question there because we are not willing to give him money nobody's willing to are you willing to give someone money who who curs Allah and Prophet Muhammad you you yourself of course of course of course we didn't even have we didn't have that section planned that I didn't notice that he only takes questions from people that pay actually Super Chat all he get so super chat gain money he earned money so many other people post questions in the live chat box without no Super Chat he never paid attention to them right so he's doing this just to earn money by insulting Allah and Prophet Muhammad so next time if you want to do it let him come to your channel say first time with it in your channel now let's do it in my channel sounds have a second debate have a have a second debate let's be just it's not your channel and other Muslim Channel I'm sure da wise brother brother Hashim mallah he's a very good brother and we are close friends I know him very well alhamdulillah we're always in touch I don't think that he will say no if you will ask him brother Hamza might allow you brother Muhammad all of them inah so you can have a second debate with him in a Muslim channel so he will be like he tried to cook you but he failed ald I talk too much for me no no you're good you're good I'm gonna take I'm gonna take your advice and for for your knowledge as well that you shared on the and from like both both perspectives as well I appreciate your time so I think you rub it now because it's late in your place in my place it's almost 12 p.m. and after 15 minutes so we have to go to I'm talking to you from the Philippines at the moment I'm in Australia actually it's not too late but um but it's just I've been live for way too long I'm just tired I think it's j time now in your place rers or uh no actually it's actually almost I'm in Sy you are two hours I think it's 2m almost it's 2: or 3:00 p.m. in Sydney it's almost now yeah yeah so you are 3 hours ahead of us in Sydney I do apologize for taking too much I love you all for the sake of Allah be well always in yeah maybe we can get the brother Radia so Salam alum ready how are you aldah how you doing I'm doing good how are you guys and uh that debate M did very good you cooked him and you blasted him off uh you know your points alhamdulillah they're very well thought out they're very well planned I think you know when they debate others they have to you know they have to you know anticipate the other person objections right before they make the argument and I think you did that very well right you argued from from multiple like lines you argued from from uh like like straight lines you also argued from like circumstantial evidence like uh the people at the time of the Prophet wasallam they should have called him out which makes sense or where the Quran like intentionally contradicts the Bible so I just wanted to say that and you know let you know that I really enjoyed watching the debate by the way by the way I I genely believe that Chris has some type of cognitive disabilities I'll tell you why because no like gen believe that because if you watched his uh his debate with an Rashid last year and they're discussing the quranic manuscripts like the birming manuscript and stuff like that uh right the way he was behaving like he was he was like like annoyingly ignoring the questions like like now like like generally like it seems like he has some type of cognitive disabilities I'm not joking like I'm not I'm not trying to make fun of him I genuinely think that yeah that's why raahim said as well he's saying that it seems like this guy's slow yeah anyways me too uh I also try to make videos against these people I am a sort of small channel here but inshah see guys and have a great day yeah guys stop um yeah like whoever's like trying to insult the brother that was on before have some shame he was quoting Quran verses like left and right and yeah he was trying to give genuine advice so this isn't like proper so I think like so many Christians to be fair which is like to be expected yeah Ahmed did you have something else to say I had a I had a cool question like I was watching the debate I was like I was surprised by his uh his answers I'm when you like when you questioning him I was just like I was surprised I remember like for one of them questions I have a question for about one of the questions one of the questions you asked him like about about Sam like you ask him about like is there was it found was it found in any like uh in anything you ask if they it was Prior found right and then my thing when it comes to like when it comes to why why did he admit that why did he admit that it was like they got it from a random probably got it from a or tradition or why did he admit that just say why could he as you said yes sir going y yeah why could he just say like oh like the author me Allah quotequote author of the Quran like he he made a mistake like he he doesn't he didn't really he wasn't really like familiar with the the the Tor and he just like he made a mistake because it's because like this guy is so inconsistent one minute he wants say he's so familiar one second one say he's not so familiar like very inconsistent like the only other option he had was either there was an old tradition that that he borrowed from right mistakenly that contradicts the general narrative that Aaron made the golden calf peace be upon him yeah it's either that um or it's that he heard some I don't know some random or or tradition right and and the point is is that if he is if the author of the Quran like if we're doing a hypothetical here if he is listening to an a tradition and he is thinking that's the actual Torah yeah then that's that's the only way he can say like the author of the Quran he's making a mistake what's more likely is that the auth of the Quran heard the story the actual Tory of the story of the Torah and edited it knowing that it says Aaron made the golden C that's way more likely he doesn't doesn't want to that and ironically have did you watch the debate between John Fontaine and God logic yeah yeah watch that one too right so John so John Fain was bringing the view that there was some different Torah inil at the time yeah and they were laughing at John saying well um like that's so impossible so improbable that there was some different Torah inil but he Chris s is positing that to save his behind with this argument he's positing that there's a different Torah different inil that the prophet alhi wasallam or some whoever you want s the Au the Quran to be heard right yeah that's basically positing what John was positing he didn't notice that what I'm wondering is how could people like just watch like that just like how could like are the Christians like is there something like like can how can they just not like just tell like I feel like I'm be honest like their supporters I saw their chats and stuff I feel like they're not like I don't think they they they like they actually listen to what's going on for every listen for every one, disingenous people on their Channel there's going to be one that thinks damn he got cooked right there's got to be at least one that's genuine at the very least one yeah and if and if not one possibly tens possibly hundreds right that now have cognitive dissonance and thinking that he didn't get cooked or now are doubting the Islamic dilemma it doesn't even have to be that they think he got cooked as long as we can as long as we can go ahead and say at the very least this is putting doubts in the Christians Minds in terms of them using this argument then it's a success like we're not looking no one for a certain even if a Christian gets cooked will change their position because a l of them have a lot of bias but as I said like for every 1,000 there'll be there'll be one that's genuine at the very least yeah so so your so you basically believe that they they know it but they just don't admit it a lot of of course like unless they're like unless they they just can't track arguments anyone that can track an argument will and watches that debate especially when I question Chris it does not look good like the Chris didn't upload any parts on his channel I reacted to my exchange with him and I put it on my channel the whole thing's there when he's questioning me and I'm questioning him I put both up he only put the part where he was questioning me and he only uploaded it in Parts oh okay okay okay yeah he knows he knows but at the end when he said sorry if I'm taking off too much time but at the end when he said he he mentioned like that was not my position like what was his position the whole time then re rewind and you see me catching him out cuz we watched um I replayed his intro sure I mean I could even pull it up now if you want give me a second [Music] um Okay let's listen from his his words his very words let let's see what he says okay here we go now here's my second point I want to I want to know exactly how it is possible that Corruption of the Torah take the Torah for example that you can corrupt the Torah universally that is held both by Christians and Jews in written former in churches and synagogues and as an oral recitation that is being repeatedly recited by Jews in the in the scholarly SE as well as in Christian scholarship they are reciting it as well as just the normal communities as part of their own Services as part of the ly the Torah is being recited worldwide how is it possible that Universal corruption can occur I would argue that is not possible and I would actually give it up to my opponent to give an example of how such a thing can indeed take place in order for this to take place you would need to have cooperation between Jews and Christians of different sects of different World Views who fundamentally disagree about maners of theology cooperating together to alter a book a tour and an oral recitation in the in the words of hundreds of thousands of people and a minimum without anyone noticing and then you would have to eliminate the correct original Torah Muslim or Islam tored so knows it it just Vans no evidence nothing such a view is absurd it is a conspiracy that is so insane and so out there that no rational person can take it seriously and this of course is nothing new Christians and and Jews have both been arguing Muslims making this point ever since the time of Muhammad Muslims have no response to this and my opponent tonight will have any response to it either because quite frankly it is absur on the face of it not only because it's not just plausible it's not even possible something like this has never been documented and of course if my opponent to demonstrate this had occurred he would actually have to show the original Islamic in jail or the original Islamic Torah can he do that no and he never will because no muslim can because again it's not true and we know this because there's no evidence when evidence will be reasonably expected and that's a criteria keep in mind as well the kind of corruption that's being mentioned here is not Corruption of just a text that's very important to make a distinction and I want to make sure my opponent picks up on this textual altering is not sufficient to solve the Islamic dilemma you need to have a corruption or a change of the narratives and meanings and stories told Within These uh Within These Frameworks whether that's the oral framework or the textual framework the point is is that if you want to change whether or not the Jews are for example considered the children of God you need to not only change versus but you need to add verses holistically across all five books of the Torah that is a very radical change than just a small slight textual addition or subtraction can he demonstrate that happens I love to see him try because no muslim has ever demonstrated it therefore ladies and gentlemen if what I've said is true then again the CR is an error for another reason and it's not from God oh sorry slide though my bad oh sorry I I went too much forward I think my bad my bad the firm continuity with PR prophets so once and for all contradictory Islamic D okay the Quran affirms that the Tor in theil the gospel are true Revelations by a lot we know this because for the most part the Quran actively quotes part stories are wellknown from the Torah and presents them as being true it affirms continuity with PR prophets so for example the Quran quot Abraham it mus which is Moses es which is Jesus so on and so forth it claims continuity and this is a point well understood by both Islamic scholars and secular Scholars for example Dr Gabriel Reynolds makes his point that the Quran clearly and without doubt claims to be a continuation of scriptures we also have Twisted verses so for example in 3 it makes it very clear that the Torah theil and the Quran are all sent by Allah great we know that the Torah and the inil are sent by Allah great stuff that same Torah and inil in the presence of Muhammad are confirmed in the Quran what do I mean by this what I mean is that in verses like 77 Surah 241 Surah 289 Surah 291 Sur 543 44 45 46 47 66 and 68 and many many more all demonstrate that the inul and Tor are present and are confirmed by the Quran directly in the Quran itself this leads us with no doubt at all that the Quran absolutely affirms the validity of the Torah that is present with Muhammad at his time you heard that yeah yeah he said I said absolutely affirms the Torah and inil at the time he's he's finished he he he shifted that I'm not sure where but as you said somewhere here he shifts it and he's like no that was never my position was isn't that the whole dilemma yeah that's bir that's the whole dilemma exactly so he's so he's saying that's then what's that that's crazy that's yeah this guy got folded like it's clear deic next nah bro Avery would be way too scared but this guy's like his teacher bro this guy like he gave all the info for go for Avery to use in his debate against Dron so like I doubt a would de no I wouldn't want to I wouldn't want to debate this topic again i' would like to like debate um something else yeah that was cooked be but the thing is about like other guy I don't think the other guy would would be like like would answer questions like he would just duck these these questions he wouldn't be answer them all right good this would be a good short idea yeah inshah I I'll probably do that can't lie let me let me make sure I get the good like the time stamp for where was it um I think it was maybe here got minutes criteria for how to falsify the cran itself and the criteria is simple if you can show there is multiple contradictions not one as many states but the Arabic is very clear there are multiple contradictions in the Quran therefore the Quran is an error well if we take by let me explain that for like I'm pretty sure everyone understands this but um the point with the Quran says had it been other than from Allah it would have had many contradictions within it yeah it's because it's because like he was trying to say that the quran's saying oh it can have a couple contradictions but just not too many like obviously that's not the case the reason why the Quran says many contradictions you would find in it is because of the nature of the claims in the Quran because the Quran makes a lot of like prophecies miraculous claims of the future and scientific claims had it been from other than Allah and because it's like very um it's trying to achieve like next level linguistic Styles and trying to achieve that within a setting s sorry ahed your M your mic's just making a bunch of noise yeah you just disconnected okay but yeah the point being made is um because of the nature of the claims of the Quran you would expect if human being wrote it You' see many contradictions not just one that's what the Quran is saying so let me make sure I get the time stamp right for this isamic D example then there will be many contradictions in thean because it affirms things outside of it corrupt the Torah universally I think are sent by Allah great stuff that same T Allah we know think it's like it's like six minutes to seven minutes I think he's doing a debate review with John [Music] Fontaine [Music] um okay if anyone else wants to come up got to put a link in here just about five minutes if no one wants to come up then CH I'll just end it here it T forever yeah so testify canceled it initially and now it's down to weam to reschedule it with him [Music] how are you doing I'm good alhamdulillah how you doing give me one second I need to close my my YouTube no wor take time okay yeah so alhamdulillah uh good debate overall I think uh did pretty well but one one or two things that I noticed I think um the one thing when immediately when I started seeing the debate my first question that I had in my mind was why did you allow them to change the topic to does the Quran affirm the previous scriptures and that's uh that's a very vague uh topic right when we talk about the Bible we can basically discuss what the Bible is and uh the previous scripture just makes it a bit more messy ambiguous that's right yeah yeah so that was one of the first things that I noticed I think you uh they knew they knew they lost the previous debate the last time they had that discussion they knew that they couldn't position any idea on the Bible that shows that the Quran is confirming the Bible they knew that that was the reason why they probably did it uh I was just wondering how that came about because initially I think uh when you went on his channel you were talking about the Bible itself right yeah that's right yeah so did they change it uh unilaterally no I think I think it's always been essentially it's always been does the Quran affirm the Bible then he changed it to does the Quran from the previous scriptures I.E the Torah and in right when did he do that like did he agreed agreed that with you no yeah yeah and and and that's a good point actually I'm gonna have to look back at the recording when I did speak to him but I'm pretty sure we agreed on this the Quran from the Bible yeah that's that's what I remember as well because you were on his channel you were having the discussion with Chris and uh uh SE and uh God logic I think those three were there and S started uh pressing you on with questions and everything but uh I think that's where uh it just it just gives them an advantage because if you talk about the previous scriptures itself right the Quran does affir the previous scriptures right the the burn the proof is on them to show for certain and that's the Bible yeah yeah but at the same time I mean this is this was very sneaky of them I just wanted to point that out and maybe you should put up a video about this that this was never the topic that was uh originally discussed put down that what the discussion was to make it very clear what the original topic was that was being discussed because even when you started your opening statement you didn't Point uh you didn't put down that uh does the the Quran does not confirm the previous scriptures you were saying something else I'm forgetting the exact words but in your opening from the Bible yeah yes I think so that's what he said yeah yeah that's right and uh if I could just check my messages now with him possibly I can get some more insight on what we agreed on um just give me one second by you know Chris uh he like slandered me saying that I cheated with like no evidence so just me looking down on the camera that was very weak evidence they they're just coping at this point no so remember they they have nothing to provide they've got no evidence to provide and all the evidence that they're providing is um either already refuted or it's very easily refutable uh sorry yeah he did actually um he did actually message me that but I didn't notice uh he asked me does the Quran affirm the previous scriptures he did message me that on Twitter but I I didn't notice that I didn't the distinction yeah so uh maybe maybe make a clarification on this so that uh it's not it's understood that this was sort of sneaked into this and uh you uh you didn't realize what what was happening what they were doing because this is very sneaky of them um anyway uh so that was one thing the other thing was how I noticed ay trying to take control of the Q&A session right he this was already rigged against us Muslims because I'll be honest with you I I heard well and I had exactly the same idea like I'm not going to go on Avery's Channel pay him any amount of money to get my question up there right I I think it's uh no of course we didn't we didn't actually have we didn't have that planned um from the beginning we we didn't have like previous to the to the debate we were in um the streamyard me ibraim and and um Chris and Avery and we never agreed on the Q&A but he like kind of put me on the spot on the live saying we're GNA do it I'm like okay and I didn't realize that to get your question answered you need a Super Chat yeah exactly I mean you're in the middle of a debate your mind you're in a particular zone right you're not going to be thinking everything uh it was a good thing that uh you brought up that you need to have the last words on those questions right I I think uh otherwise he was just trying to wrestle control and this is this is classic Avery this is classic uh this is the classic uh Satan uh trying to take control of this because what he was trying to do was leave Chris with the last word because most of the question would be from Christians you would make a response Chris would respond to your response right and that would be the last word left with the audience so essentially that's what they going to go home with right and I feel that uh it was a good uh uh fight from you and brother Ibrahim right on that particular matter right right I've always seen from debates it's always been that the person that's being asked gets the final say that that just makes most sense yeah it does I mean ask for it and uh if it's something which is being you're being put on the spot for just uh negotiate right on the spot then tell them very clearly okay we're not going to have the Q&A then right just just be very clear we're not going to have the Q&A if you're not going to agree to something like this you're putting putting me on the spot just say call them out on that like this is this is not any uh person we should be uh generous to at all this is uh 100% this is uh yeah I mean Chris especially especially Chris like I don't understand um he just he just slandered me in his recent I don't know if you watched his recent video yeah I I saw that he just slamed me claiming I cheated with like what the evidences I was looking down what what looking down yeah like his evidence for me cheating was that I was looking down a lot of the time so what you could have your uh screen below your eyes so if you're looking at your screen to talk how does that I'll be I'll be looking at my because I had notes I posted on Twitter I had notes from um on my iPhone for uh for the debate I had all my questions on there ready then I had a then I had a tangible like physical piece of paper with me that I was writing with a pen on whenever he would speak so that's why I would constantly be looking down right yeah I mean they will try to do whatever they can to U malign you right and it's a good thing that you're U talking about this way and this is one of the big reasons why uh the we should not allow them uh to have these debates on their Channel they don't need the legibility they don't need to be made uh given any sort of uh uh Credence for this type of thing because they they're truly uh especially like ivery and um I mean Chris as well these guys are they're doing the work of San very clearly they're lying they're cheating going to do everything possible to undermine your uh position and uh we see we saw that during the debate as well like Avery trying to bring that up the Q&A piece I just thought that was very bizarre it did appear that uh things weren't agreed to um early on and he was the way he was pointing it out he was like he he wanted it his way and he wanted to basically rest control from you guys and sort of just uh use that as an opportunity to malign Islam that was it it was a good thing you guys stood up on that right um can I ask a question yeah sister just one last and then I'll jump off right of course of course so Dean one of the things I would say is uh at the very end what Avery did uh with that question that he asked you of about the brother right and your response I was actually disappointed I I didn't expect you to come up with that respond I I really hope that you can Rectify that and you I I spoke to I spoke to John faine afterwards like on the phone okay yeah that's good and I also wanted to bring it up because uh if you've already done that make sure that you're putting it up in the public spare as well because he's our brother at the end of the day if brother John Fontaine does something wrong you can forgive him you can get forgiveness from him and he's going to be a in J this guy of course this guy is uh at least the way he is right now he's uh he's not a brother of ours right maybe a brother in humanity but definitely an enemy of Allah right so he doesn't need any sort of sympathy from us so uh he he tried something very dishonest uh and honestly you I would recommend that anytime someone is putting you on the spotlight this say I don't need to respond to that this is this has nothing to do with it's irrelevant that's right that's right heed he tried to sneak in yeah you're right he saved it till the end of the debate I was you know what I was I was tired I was out of my mind like my mind was like I was preoccupied with the debate I I wasn't thinking like too too properly at that moment in time and he called me off guard and I just responded how I would respond to like anyone generally on on that position at the time and to be honest I didn't actually have the clearest idea of John fain's position as well so yeah I'm yeah as you said I was I was already planning on doing that where I was even thinking of having John Fen come on my channel inah where yeah that would be good uh make it up to the brother I mean here's the thing the you know this I know this everybody uh who's a Muslim knows this that um the in Islam we accept this difference of opinion we can argue between us sorry about that I still have this uh lingering cuff um we can argue internally about this right but this is something we uh we don't need to bring on the public sphere if there is a disagreement between you and me or between you and John Fontaine or between uh you and brother ibraim have a a private conversation about it um agree disagree whatever you want to do but it doesn't need to come into the public SP especially especially not to allow these evil people to use that against us this is uh it's uh detrimental to the dawa as a whole it's um it also allows them the anation that they want to use against um uh Muslims and I I won't be surprised if every has some sort of a clip coming out very soon uh some short or something about this right so uh if he does just point it out uh point it out to him I mean this is um it is it was a very dishonest question it had no relevance to the debate and uh it was uh and this is what this uh satanic individual does right he he knows exactly what time to how to time this to catch you of guard and he did catch you off guard right so uh alhamdulillah if you've already had the talk talk with the brother alhamdulillah that uh uh everything is resolved between all of us right and uh whatever our differences are we're allowed our differences and we can uh proceed with that of course but overall overall with the debate what did you think generally yeah so uh that was the first thing I brought up right uh if he's positioning that the debate was about the scriptures right I wouldn't even agree that we should have debated that topic because as Muslims we agree that uh they were previous scriptures given the Quran confirms the previous scriptures but about the Bible definitely I mean they have no legs to stand on and uh you brought some different points from what brother John fontain did I think it was uh supplemental and uh useful as well overall um uh however I think we sort of need to take a step back not allow them to keep bringing up the same topic over and over again because they're trying to uh all they're trying to do is uh mudy the Water more and more they're trying a straw man it it is a straw man and the reason why I'm saying money the water is because they're trying to bring up so many false claims right that uh the people who are looking at this they're starting to become confused okay what is the exact argument against it they're just shotgunning all these arguments to Muslims oh this and this and this and this and then I mean uh you need time to respond to this and uh uh these type of things is definitely uh something we we we we should basically now have the position that this has been debated on two separate platforms right we refuted you very convincingly you guys lost the debate if you want to keep bringing this up right it doesn't make any sense to and we're moving on from this we don't even need to right right and and the main the main point would just be that I thought they need to like represent like me ibraim as well as many other people's position yeah but that's uh H that's a side matter a I mean it's not it's not necessary that that wasn't necessary because this is an external debate internally yes we can have this debate but externally we don't need to Brother John fontine also refuted this particular argument I mean you did this you you did a great job and it's uh pretty much doubly convincing now they don't they shouldn't be bringing it up but we know they are going to because they're Liars right uh they don't care about the truth they only care about either making money of it or uh like I said it's the work of Satan they just want to make it uh more obscure so that people uh they sort of feel that there's some sort of an argument when there's none right so U I think uh overall I think this uh this should be the end of it we shouldn't even bring this up anymore with them um if they we should basically point out did you see those two debates go back take a look at those debates the arguments were very clearly presented your people had no uh response to the evidence that was presented to you guys the arguments that were presented to you guys uh if you have something new bring it up and we can discuss the evidence otherwise I mean uh this argument is buried I mean from a Muslim point of view we should just respond like that right understood for your um advice and yeah as I said yeah I did speak to John FR we're like yeah we're we're in contact now like almost every day um talking about this and talking about other things and I do have a better understanding of his view now and I'm I'm more open to it obviously I don't agree with it still but um yeah I I I I wouldn't I wouldn't have such a view I did before now that he's clarified a lot of the stuff yeah and okay I mean it's one of the three classical positions that you can hold right that uh yeah yes you can say that okay uh this is generally this is the book that was um that aligns with what was revealed to mam because it contains some of the um Revelation that was given to mam right and can confirm that because the Quran is confirming certain verses in it right the other option definitely is that you deny that book because it's been changed so much that you cannot agree to the idea that's the same it's that ship of thesis type of thing right uh at what point do you say that it's no longer the original ship of thesis okay uh so that type of thing and then uh you can also hold uh the very nuanced opinion that uh the Quran affirms certain uh verses in there and it denies certain verses in there others is very ambiguous on I think all three of those classical positions are pretty uh pretty useful to understand and uh not necessarily any one of them is wrong yeah of course I I would never say John Fain John fain's position is necessarily wrong uh just like not not tenable but obviously um now that he's like explained to me more than I'm I'm more open to it and in like the more he comes out with information on his position um because I know that he um is looking to debate uh some other people I think he said Sam shamon is looking to debate if that does occur then uh yeah even like after that debate and after his book comes out inshallah um I think a lot of people will benefit from it uh and people be more open to his view insh yeah alhamdulillah I think he's doing a great work in uh putting this sorry he's been um he's been working on it for years it's not like he's uh focused on this he's pretty much doing a pces on it uh where he's writing this book down for the Muslims to refute this argument he's gone through uh done a lot of work on this and that like uh it's good that we have a brother like him and uh who's willing to put the effort in and uh basically refute an argument to the very source and very core of it uh a lot of us Brothers we we do refute it but we don't have the depth of knowledge that brother John fontain is trying to put together for us so yeah all right salum I know you have uh other members as well who's uh coming up and uh yeah I just thought I'd uh come on and have that discussion with you because there was there was definitely a few things which were uh where I totally agree with you uh but a couple of things where I think we need to be extra cautious especially when we're dealing with these people because they sneak in these type of uh uh they put us in these type of situation right as we've seen and then uh it's best to be very very cautious when you're dealing with them and for the big donation Allah bless you for that and inah um if you could just DM me on Instagram or Discord or or Twitter or anywhere I can give you access also to um an exclusive Discord server we have for members so yeah in if you want to join that Discord group get like direct contact to myself um just let me know in yeah Salam alikum sister yeah so I had a couple of questions right um I just wanted to say I think in the debate itself um my favorite portion was the opening statement uh just because after Chris's opening statement I think he waffled for the first 10 minutes uh he didn't bring up many points of contention so there wasn't much to really respond to right but I think when it came to the rebuttal is when there was a few things that I would I want some more clarification over on like what your is for those like specifically when it comes to the concept of uh confirming like the scripture that was between their hands where did you get the T Seer for that or where are you getting that information from with with your response to that in that what's between their hands is it with Prophet muham sahu alai wasallam yeah yeah so so we get that from other verses and the the attitudes of the companions at the time the attitudes of the companions of the time were that it was being confirmed but at the same time there was distortions so how to harmonize it is that we don't interpret the uh confirmation as an absolute confirmation uh obviously because the Quran itself says it's confirming these books but at the same time it's making these edits yeah and I I I guess I don't necessarily disagree with that and you can correct me if I'm wrong or think that I have a bad opinion on this I think personally it would have been better to talk about the fact that the reason uh the Jews even came to Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam with uh uh you know questions regarding their own faith he sent them back towards their book to show you know a sense of if this is the book you follow then why would you take teachings from the Quran right no no that would work if it was like isolated but um it is it is called like the book that they are using it is the Quran says that has the hook of Allah has like the the judgments of Allah in it and like how do we reconcile all these the way we reconcile is that it's not talking in an absolute sense mm so then my question back I guess as if I were taking the Christian apologetic position right would be um why would Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam have them go back to a corrupt book right so going back to a why even have them try to follow it so having having them go back to a corrupt book is if they're going to obviously they're not going to apply the Quran because they don't believe in it uh it's better for them to go back to a corrupt book that has at least some from Allah then for them to apply a or a way of of law that has none of Allah's with him right at the very least they have some of like Allah's H if they go back to the Torah okay that makes sense that makes sense I understand that point of view then yeah um I guess another point in the debate that I wish would have been pressed a little bit more was this concept of like Universal corruption why is this necessary why there why must there be Universal corruption why can there not be you know I don't understand why Chris continued to push that you must admit that it's was universally corrupted and if not then your point uh defeats itself yeah so he was saying that um when the Quran or the Hadith mentioned that they made like they distorted the books he thinks that um he thinks that well yeah they're distorting the books but if some people in Arabia destroy the like for example today right if I was to get a Bible in Australia and edit the Bible that's not going to then or even even if like 10 people do that like a whole group of people that won universally corrupt it and it doesn't have to universally corrupt it in order for it to be corrup yeah but the point is is that I'm not positing that this is only the case where um Universal corruption wouldn't apply then if it reaches a level of of mass transmission and I mentioned this in the debate arii says this IB makes mention of this that the corruption would have to be at a point in time where it's not being Mass transmitted now when would that be for the tor I make mention of a possible time be like the Babylonian exile right there wouldn't there wouldn't be many people who were memorizers of the Torah or there would be like the chains of transmission for the Torah would be cut off as well as there would be a lack of literate people at the time same thing Witham the followers of alam's True Religion were minimal right yeah and and a lot of them were illiterate and most of the inil was was actually oral because because they were illiterate right and the corruption the corruption would occur during time periods like that where there was lack of literacy lack of memorizers lack of followers so it couldn't reach that level of mass transmission that he's referring to I'm not claim that that would only apply if I claimed there was Distortion specifically at the time of the Prophet sallai wasallam which which I didn't claim yeah yeah you didn't I agree that makes sense I understand that point I think also like another point that I also wanted to make was I found it really hilarious uh the cross-examination you did an excellent job uh honestly I don't think you even needed to say much he dug himself his own grave specifically when he quoted uh I think it was uh Surah n verse I believe like 82 I don't even remember uh I feel like I wish he would have pushed him pressed him more on that just to kind of embarrass him a little bit yeah yeah yeah um like he he has to take these positions on these Quan verses where um if anyone want join on the stream I'll put the link again by the wayam AJ yeah so um he always has to take these very weird Fringe views on the Quran not even Fringe views just unprecedented views I've never heard of these interations before where he's like um when the author of the Quran says uh had it been from other than Allah then there would have been many contradictions what he means here is there can be some contradictions but not too many like yeah I don't understand you know what's so funny is my friends and I we pulled up the exact verse right and we we pulled up every single English translation to try to see if there's any way that he could have possibly misinterpreted this and it there's absolutely no way that could have been misinterpreted it was done so insincerely it's yeah exactly it's not even misinterpretation it's he's consciously trying to force an interpretation that'll help suit his narrative so that his argument can work the thing is that his viewers will never fact checked it so that's why I kind of wish you would have pressed it a little bit just to to make the point to the viewers right yeah yeah you are right like even though I find it laughable and but we find it laughable but that's because we understand it right his viewers they they they treat him like he's the all- knowing a right so they they'll never fat checked it unless they want to and none of them are sincere so I don't know are you ever planning on having them on your channel because I feel like having it on those channels is just very biased and it puts you in this position where for example during the cross- examination I felt like it was uh pretty biased especially on like Avery side so I would hope that maybe like hopefully you can host one on your channel yeah I don't know about that like they're trying to align me right now trying to say that or at least Chris is not not not a you're cheating like what you're not allowed to look down even Chris was looking down he was writing like some stupid notes whenever you wouldd answer the questions he'd like repeat what you answered and like what does that help that doesn't do anything I get it I don't know yeah like it's not good enough it's not good enough evidence to say that like because someone's looking down like ibraim was was playing a game on his phone like he wasn't even I wasn't even looking at my messages on my phone what I was looking at was either it was two things I already like tweeted this on Twitter um I put that it was either I was looking on my phone because I had like digitally I digitally wrote my questions the day before that's why like I was so well prepared for it because I I wrote them down yesterday right and then um with uh times where I wasn't looking at that I was writing physically on a piece of paper like I think a lot of it was that like a lot of your face was cut out and it was just more concealed I really yeah I didn't even want to be on the camera to be honest but they like for on it yeah but I also think that like maybe well two things right one the fact that they you know are calling you out for cheating shows a lot um as to how they believe the debate went and secondly maybe on you know brother ibrahim's part uh next time something like this happens just because he's the moderator having him look like directly at the screen at all times to try to like you know limit the amount of um yeah but but like you got to think about this like would if he was helping me with IIM like be doing it so staunchly like on the camera like it doesn't make much sense I mean you have to put yourself in their shoes right if they're willing to if they're willing to make those accusations then you have to kind of think that I mean the only justification I really heard besides me looking down was oh well this other debator cheated so we wanted you to stay on camera and we're suspicious because of that and I'm like what's that Muslim debat got to do with me like yeah so yeah it's a big SL it's a big slander so he wants and also that's like a double standard as well right because he's a hypocrite that's why I called him M because like I knew something like this would happen like I know I know these guys like I know how they act I know how they treat is there any way you can post your PowerPoint to something or are you going to make like a video where you go through the PowerPoint that you did for your opening statement because I think there was so much information on there that got you know obviously you had to but it kind of got like you know swifted like under the the rug unfortunately just due to time and I feel like it'd be really good to actually be able to sit down and and read it and comprehend it yeah inshah um maybe uh in the coming maybe on the coming days but but soon inshallah I'm gonna expand on it because like I could have expanded on the point of well it's an well the argument of the Quran the Bible if it's so Apparent from the text then why don't you see anyone bringing this up right from the first generation of Muslims I mean we can make that same argument with um the argument with against Prophet Muhammad sahu alai wasallam with so this I I believe that is a good argument of course but at the end of the day what I find to be the most interesting and what I think even with Chris in his opening statement I think for the first 10 minutes there wasn't much contention because he he and you can correct me if I'm wrong but all he stated was the fact that the Quran affirms the Torah and the injil okay sure we know this as Muslims we know this sure there's parts of the Torah in the like in the inil that we affirm like we know that those are books from Prophet Muhammad from allaha so then then what's the point I think what he needed to press more on was the fact that the inil was the Bible that we have today yeah and he tried to shift his position saying at one point well absolutely in in his intro he does say that he he was making the claim that the Quran completely affirms the Torah and inil of its day right he makes it very clear in the first part and I played it before um I'm GNA probably make it to like a short or something where or a Tik Tok on Tik Tok I might post it where I I showed that he completely shifted his View at the beginning he was basically saying that the Quran completely affirms the Bible yeah and and then later on he says well no that's not my view well he did that for a lot of times like he just kept shifting his views but what I did want to add to that point of like it's argument from Silence well it was an argument from Silence but it's not fallacious as I explained to him which I had to explain to him I don't think he even knows what it means yeah yeah I can't lie I had to correct him on like he didn't even understand it but the main point would be that um also to add to that is there are Christian pists after the time of the Prophet Sall alaihi wasallam who did not use this as an argument despite them arguing against Islam like Thomas aquinus John of Damascus right I'll try to get a whole list of them and apply that to the the PowerPoint like are these guys too dense to know that this is like the killer argument for Islam did we need to waigh all this time for like these guys to come about yeah I don't know well anyways I just wanted to say that I I wanted to get some clarification on that too just one last question what truly because this was something that before even your debate and during I watched uh brother John's debate with um what's his name why can't I think of it right now but yeah I watched brother John's debate and I honestly loved his position but I remember watching your review over it and you you disagreed with the position um what what exactly about the position do you believe is is not uh something that's defendable yeah sorry um just give me one second sirry [Music] yeah so uh the brother John debated God logic yeah so so the issue with that would be uh all the manuscripts at the time that that were circulating around Arabia it is true we didn't have manuscripts in Arabia but all the manuscripts outside of Arabia did conform for the most part with the Old Testament and the gospels right so we have like so we have anashi for example the Ethiopian King at the time yeah and he accepted Islam and said yeah this is this is the prophet that that matches the inil right this is continuation of the inil right what would what wouldi identify as theil of his day um would be Mark Matthew Luke and John as well as like possibly other gospels for it for us to to pause it this is some like other gospel we don't have any manuscripts of just like a historical that's my main criticism I see and also also that's from one point the inj but um okay um maybe another example could be like well at the time of Jesus peace be upon him he would have affirmed the Torah of his day and him affirming the Torah of his day we know like almost historically definitively so that the Torah that he was affirming and that he was quoting that we find in the gospels that are historical to Jesus they're they're from the Torah like they're from the Old Testament so to say that Jesus peace be upon him was affirming affirming a Torah that's different and that that Torah is that different Torah that was in Medina as well 600 years after it's just too a historical I I think I I I can agree to some of that I think I think where I'm not really I'm trying to trying to figure out how I can form this question because it makes sense in my head I just don't know how to say it well maybe inshah I'll I'll uh join your thing so I can ask on the Discord because there was a entire point that I had to this so what exactly am I supposed to join is it the patreon uh it's it's either the patreon or the YouTube membership okay and how do I I've never done a YouTube I'll just do the patreon inah but um yeah I'll definitely ask the question on there because there was a point I remember when I was watching your review I wanted to be able to join in and ask this um but when I remember inshah I will definitely ask on the Discord um but other than that I think the debate went really well alhamdulillah specifically the cross- examination at the end was good but um good job alhamdulillah and it was nice speaking to you thank you yeah Concluding words just okay if no one else is going to come up in I probably just end the live I'm going to post the link one more time if no one comes up then I'll just end it there yo conversation squ you got any questions about the debate all he did I don't Dro him okay probably just end it here then in unless he comes back up in the next minute or so think this guy was commenting before that he wanted to come up while back okay [Music] uh I'll end the live down all [Music] guys thank you guys for joining for the debate review and now be coming back it's way too late for him but yeah um thank you guys for coming on andah I'll be producing more videos in the coming days on this topic and I'll be adding on to the PowerPoint and sharing that with Esau in future possibly on um da wise's Channel if I can organize that with them inshah all right guys Salam alayum uh conversations yeah conversations I can't wait for you bro I've been live for way too long sorry but yeah asalam alum