Intro well we can cross to Bon in Germany now and speak with Vladimir kerza one of those who has been returned very good evening to you uh good to see you how are you feeling now you are free good evening Jonathan it's really good to be in your program and uh I can tell you I'm saying this as sincerely as I can um the short answer is I'm feeling completely surreal I know I'm I'm on your screen now but I feel as if I've been watching uh a movie these past few days because I don't think I can find uh the right words to express in any language uh how it feels that one week ago I was sitting in a solitary confinement cell in a strict regime prison in Siberia two days ago uh I was sitting in the infamous KGB prisoner prison in the fort of own Moscow that we know from the great books of Alexander sanit and Vladimir bukovski among others and now I'm standing here in the middle of Bon um being on on your program on Sky News the only thing I can say is that days like the first of August of 2024 are those uh rare days in history when the impossible becomes possible because you know I can speak for myself uh and I know I can also speak for a lot of my colleagues who were on that flight from Moscow to Anchor yesterday that you know many of us thought that this was never going to be possible and that we're going to end our lives in in prison and uh and here I am standing and speaking to you there's been quite a lot of criticism here in Germany I know uh over this difficult decision by the Schultz government to agree to this prisoner exchange because of course one of the people exchanged from the western side was uh an FSB officer by the name of adim kov although as we were told Yesterday by one member our FSB Convoy of of the plane that's not his real name um who uh by some media accounts is uh Putin's personal assassin who has been sentenced to life in prison here in Germany for for a murder on the streets of Berlin uh and there's been a lot of criticism over the German government over this difficult decision but you know what decisions in a democracy are very often difficult easy decisions only come in dictatorships where everything uh is decided you know by the click of a finger of of one man and where everything is based on on cynicism on experience and on real politique but to me the biggest difference between a dictatorship and a democracy is that the highest value in a democracy is human life and the protection of human life and a saving of human life and to those people who criticize Decisions by democratic governments to exchange uh to engage in these exchanges with authoritarian regimes such as Putin I would respectfully urge them to speak not of prison exchanges but of saving human lives uh I think it's very appropriate to say this here in Germany Oscar Shindler who saved thousands of lives in Nazi Germany was given a ring by some of the people he held save uh with the words from from the talmud the Jewish scripture that somebody who saves One Life saves the whole humankind 16 human lives were saved uh during that ceremony in Ankara airport yesterday on the 1st of August 2024 and uh I think nothing can be more important uh in a democracy than saving human life well we are uh delighted of course to see you have you had a chance to speak to uh family members friends supporters have you met any of them yet uh the first person we met in Germany was uh chanc Olaf Schultz who greeted us uh on the plane at kbor International Airport uh we were then immediately transferred to to a medical facility for tests and evaluations and and so on and this news conference that we've just held here with my colleagues IIA Yashin and Andre pavaro who were part of the political prisoner release yesterday as well uh is really our first foray into into the outside world um I'll see my wife and my children tomorrow morning this will be the first time um I will have seen them in more than two years in two years and four 4 month in the 2 years and 4 month I've spent in Putin's prison I was able to Once speak on the phone with my wife and twice with my three children and so I don't think I'll be able to find the right words in any Lang language to even begin to express um how I feel about seeing them Reaction to Russian minder tomorrow morning well they will be uh of course overjoyed and delighted uh tell me what your Russian minder said to you and as you left prison and what your response was to him uh so very much in the old Soviet tradition uh we were all accompanied yesterday on that flight from uh from moscow's vuko uh airport the government terminal to Ankara uh by an FSB Convoy uh Convoy from the Russian domestic Security Service of course a successor to the Soviet KGB they've been organizing these prison exchanges from the Soviet side since the70s uh course the first prison exchange between the East and the West in terms of political prisoners was in December of 1976 at the uh TK International Airport When Vladimir bukovski uh prominent legendary Soviet dissident the prisoner of conscience was exchanged for the Chilean Communist party leader lisis corvalan that exchange was negotiated by the US government um bukovski was also accompanied by by the KGB special Squad so were we yesterday each of us each of the 16 prisoners being released on the Russian side had our own person Al uh FSB uh minder Convoy member whatever the right term is and as our plane was taking off in in vukova in Moscow airport the FSB guy next to me obviously I didn't know his name I didn't know his rank because they're all wearing civilian clothes he turned to me and said look out the window it's the last time you're seeing your motherland and I turned to him um I think I laughed for the first time in a long time because I'm a historian by education and I told him that not only do I feel not only do I believe I know that I will be back in Russia that I will be back in my home country and I told him I think it's going to be much much quicker than you could ever Reaction to Dimitri Medvedev think I'm interested to get your thoughts on what former Russian president Dimitri medev said today he said let the traitors now feverishly select new names and actively disguise themselves under the witness protection program it's sounds like a threat I'm thinking of what happened to uh uh uh the scrippal Sergey scrippo um do you worry that you will always be looking over your shoulder well look first of all I mean as as a journalist you know the importance of evaluating The Source uh before sort of evaluating the words Mr mvev has long become a complete joke even by the standards of Putin's regime propaganda but uh behind sort of the the joke uh Source here uh the words are of course very serious and look there's nothing new in them we all know the risks we all know the the dangers uh my closest friend Russian opposition leader Boris NV was assassinated on Putin's orders uh shot dead in front of the Kremlin in February of 2015 uh Alexa naali another Russian opposition leader was uh murdered in prison uh on Putin's orders in February of this year in 20124 I myself have been uh poisoned twice by a special FSB Squad so many other uh opposition figures and Kremlin critics in Russia and we know that these attacks have happened uh well beyond Russian territory and you in the UK of course know this uh particularly well uh and so you know the word safe is not a word we as Russian opposition politicians usually have in our vocabulary but look I believe in what I do I believe in my country I care about my country I love my country how however much these words have been soiled by the crian propaganda I mean them sincerely I love my country I love Russia and I think that Russia deserves so much better than being run by a corrupt murderous authoritarian KGB Le dictatorship I think Russia deserve to be a normal modern democratic European country I have absolutely no doubt as a historian that that day will come and as a politician I'm going to do everything that I can everything in my power to try to bring that day a little bit closer Thoughts on the prisoner swap you you me mentioned Nali there your thoughts must be with him today do you think that perhaps if things had been different he could have been part of this prison swap well this sort of goes back to what we discussed with you in your first question uh I cannot help but think yesterday and today about Alexander valy and to think that if these processes have had worked a little faster if the government here in Germany had to overcome less resistance uh to the idea of such a prisoner exchange maybe Alexi could have been here with us we know that we know that he isn't but I think again and I repeat this because I think this is very very important to all those here in Germany and in the west more General generally who criticized the idea of these prisoner exchanges by sort of putting forward the argument that they only encourage more hostage taking that they only encourage more uh uh you know arrest of political prisoners that they only encourage more repressions towards uh regime opponents in Russia first of all repressions will continue regardless of whether there are uh prison exchanges or not because that's the nature of dictatorships this is what they do they persecute their opponents they they try to gag their opponents they try to eliminate their opponents and it doesn't matter if uh uh you know if there's uh willingness on the other side to save these people or they will continue to behave in this way regardless the only difference that this willingness or the absence of it on the western side can make is whether some human lives can actually be saved from the hands of these dictators as 16 human lives were by that Exchange in Anchor airport on the 1st of August 2024 that is a real question facing uh democratic governments facing democratic nations facing those countries that Pride themselves uh of being based on uh such Notions as the protection of Human Rights and and and human freedoms and so um to all those who criticize exchanges such as the one that happened in ankora uh I want to say that nothing can be more important than saving human life uh and this is the most important outcome of what uh happened in Anchor Plans for the future yesterday uh you must be utterly exhausted so this is my final question I promise so what are your plans you talked about your your wife and your family what are your plans for the next few days uh and Beyond you know what two days ago in uh two days ago I was in Le for of a prison in Moscow as I mentioned a week ago I was in my solitary confinement cell in Siberia um actually the night I was taken from my cell in Siberia to be transferred in Moscow as I now know in preparation for this exchange I was actually certain I was being led out to to get executed so I think uh you know plans and and thoughts about what's going to come uh in the future haven't really been on the top of my mind in these last few days uh I'm just taking things as they come and then just to to stress this again Everything feels utterly surreal the only thing I can think about now is that tomorrow morning for the first time since the spring of 2022 uh I will see uh my wife and my three children uh and this is not only the most important thing this is the only thing I can think uh of now and this is my only plan uh and I cannot tell you how much I'm looking forward to um that morning coming