Are We in the End Times? | Java with Jen Podcast

so Revelation gives us a lot of hope that uh it does talk about a battle we are in a battle between good and evil between Jesus and and Satan and so there is Warfare in the book between uh God and the devil but the book assures us that he's going to win God is going to win love is going to win truth is going to win right is going to win and evil is going to go down and that's a very important uh pillar of our understanding as we look around the world and we see so many you know terrible things happening it's very comforting it's very assuring it's very powerful in a person's life to realize that uh Evil's not going to going to rule forever it's going to go down and God is going to win hi you're listening to Java with Jen with your host Jenna Samuel on this show I bring the Simplicity of hearing God's voice into everyday life in a noons authentic and super practical way with coffee and hand and real life in our faces let's do this hey everybody thanks so much for coming back for another episode here at Java with Jen I have a new guest with me on a topic we have not covered on the show and if I'm really honest I was not sure I ever would cover this topic on the show because of how dicey it can get um but given the current events and the state of the world and the Nations it is actually very t top of mind for people and seems to be one that people have a lot of questions about and that is we're going to talk about the end times the Rapture the end of the world the tribulation all those things and I have the special guest with me Steve Walberg is a Jewish Christian from Los Angeles and he has earned a ba degree in theology from Las Sierra College in Riverside California he has a MERS of divinity as well he's a pro prolific writer and speaker who's written over 40 books a variety of Bible topics but a lot of them are focused around this topic of the end times and the Book of Revelation he's been a guest on over 500 radio and television shows that is a lot friends and has been featured in three History Channel documentaries One National Geographic documentary and has spoken by special invitation inside the Pentagon and the US Senate now he was so kind to let me touch base with him on a phone call before we committed to doing an interview because to be fair I wanted to make sure he was a normal guy with uh with good sound Doctrine and I can attest that he is very down toe and happy to talk about this subject in a way that is digestible so Steve thank you for coming on the show yes thank you so much Jen and you did vet me very carefully and I guess I passed the test you did pass the test yeah I'm happy to be your guest and I love talking about this topic I I love talking about Jesus in the Bible and the Book of Revelation so it's my uh honor to be with you and looking forward to seeing what God is going to do in the time that we have yes I'm looking forward to it too now before we dive in tell me where you're from uh well I I grew up in Southern California in the Hollywood Hills Studio City area but I don't claim that anymore uh I've been living in North Idaho for the last 15 years with my wife and my children way up in the mountains near the Canadian border so when people ask me where are you from these days I say I'm from North Idaho oh anyway I'm originally from Los Angeles I'm a Californian but I'm a transplant up here into the mountains it's beautiful up here I love it it sounds beautiful sounds cold but it sounds beautiful you're in Texas right are you in Texas yep we're down here in Texas down where the Hurricanes like to be neighbors yeah my wife and I uh we married when when I we were living in Fort Worth so oh we know a lot of people in Texas and uh have a lot of friends there oh well that's awesome yeah Texas is great I consider my te myself a Texan though I am a transplant as well so okay so on this topic I was obviously very impressed when I first got you you came across my desk um in an invitation to have you on the show and I read all of your experiences these places that you spoken and that this is such a focused topic for you which to be fair we all understand like it's not Revelation is a well-known book but I wouldn't call it a popular book in that nobody knows what to do with it it feels like and then the people that do decide to pick it up you get all kinds of results from people taking such a deep focus on Revelation so what was it that put this topic on your radar in the first place yes well it really started shortly after I became a Christian U my family as I grew up in the Hollywood Hills we were very secular secular Jewish uh we didn't go to the synagogue we didn't pray we didn't read the Bible it was just I was a cultural Jew basically and as a teenager I I went to North Hollywood High School and I got lost in the world of uh the discos in the 70s and just the wildlife the rock and roll music and the parties and so uh sometimes I refer to myself as a disco dancing cocaine snorting marijuana smoking lost Jew oh wow that was me as an as a 19-year-old uh didn't had never read the Bible so when I was 20 and it's a long story uh somebody recommended that start reading the Bible and I started searching because my life was not going in the right direction and I started reading the Bible for the first time and I eventually was gripped by Gethsemane the this the account of Jesus suffering in the garden and then his dying on the cross and the Holy Spirit really made a move on me and I I decided I want this man he's what I need I need Jesus so I got on my knees in a dormatory room and accepted Christ as my savior and I've never been the same since and that was when I was 20 years old and so uh and it didn't take long after my my my life had changed and I kept reading the Bible uh and I remember distinctly thinking to myself wow Jesus came once he came 2,000 years ago to live suffer die rise from the dead and go to heaven and the Bible says he's coming back again so the whole idea of him being here once and then him returning uh that really interested me and then when I discovered that the Book of Revelation was the great book on prophecy about uh the events that are going to take place before he comes uh that just it just gripped me and I think it was just a calling the Lord just put it on my heart study Revelation study the Book of Daniel learn the prophecies and then the more I did that the more I felt this calling to start sharing these things with others and after going to school for five years and uh when one thing led to another I was a teacher at a Christian High School taught teenagers I pastored churches I started doing seminars and little by little I uh became the director of White Horse media and now we have a media Ministry to teach the Book of Revelation and to lift up Jesus uh around the world so that's kind of in a nutshell how it happened I I love the Book of Revelation and it's my favorite book in the Bible That's so incredible I love that now you had mentioned or it it was mentioned in the bio that you got to speak at the Senate at the Pentagon on Discovery Channel you did a c a number of shows with them so how did some of that come about is it just the years of just knowing people and word getting pasted I mean the Pentagon is the one that threw me I was like why are they talking about the end times of the Pentagon right yeah that's a good question a lot of people have wondered that it was in7 and by this time our ministry was known uh we had a lot of videos that were on YouTube and as an author I've written a lot of books on Prophecy so we became known and there was a chaplain named William broom in the Pentagon one of the many chaplain there and he just he he normally had a Wednesday morning prayer breakfast where he invited people uh staff people at the Pentagon there's 25,000 people that work in the Pentagon so he would generally have about a hundred people that would come to his voluntary prayer breakfast and he would invite different speakers and uh at one point he decided I'm going to have a Symposium on Bible prophecy and I'm going to invite different people to come as a guest and talk about their views of Prophecy he invited Joel Rosenberg who's a well-known Christian Author and somehow he found he found me so uh one day in 2007 I got an email and the subject line said Declassified and I was quite intrigued by that so I read it and it was a personal invitation from chaplain broom to me to come to the Pentagon and to give one talk during his Wednesday morning morning prayer breakfast about Bible prophecy and so I did that and then then he reached out to chaplain Barry black in the Senate and and Barry had a Friday noon uh lunch where he would invite people to come and also listen to a speaker talk about the Bible so in one trip I went to the Pentagon on a Wednesday and I went to the Senate a building within the Senate complex uh on Friday and I gave two talks and it was uh it was quite an exper experienced one of the most memorable experiences of my life and we recorded the talk on in the Pentagon uh I had a little tape recorder in my pocket and I pushed the button recorded it we put it on our website when I got back and people were just electrified to uh to hear this talk and so that's how it happened and a lot of fond memories of that event that's so cool so I personally was so touched to even here that there are these Bible studies happening within the people at the Pentagon and the Senate and stuff that was just comforting to me knowing that this is happening in our governmental leaders and obviously not all of them but there are people up there that love the Lord and are serving him in those places that's beautiful there really are there's a lot of praying that's going on in leadership positions in Washington DC I can imagine now because this given current events and how Wild Things have gotten the last four years I think there's a lot of words we could use for the last four years but I feel like it's very top of mind for people because and you even mentioned that you guys have gotten more requests more frequent requests than than you've seen in the past and that there's that song that went viral called Revelation tell us a little bit about that you mentioned it earlier yeah that was about I think it came out about a month ago and people send me video clips all the time and I they sent me a clip to an interview with John Rich who is a gospel singer in Nashville with Tucker Carlson and what happened was John as he tells the story he was uh I think he was in his house and all of a sudden he said it was like a like the Lord came upon him like a sledgehammer and just hit him over the head so strongly that he wanted him to write a song about the Book of Revelation and this song Just Just flowed it just came out of him in a very short time he wrote the song and he added quite a bit of uh animation and and graphics and so uh today it's only been a few weeks uh that song you can you can go on YouTube and just type in John Rich Revelation and listen to the song it's about three and a half minutes and it has over 2 million views and because that song became so popular that landed him an interview on the Tucker Carlson show and I'd love to get on with Tucker and talk about the Book of Revelation as well so I watched the interview I've listened to a song and for an hour and 20 minutes Tucker was asking him questions about the Book of Revelation and Tucker said I've read the book I don't really understand it and then John gave different uh views that he has on Revelation and a lot of people have watched this and it just impressed me that so many people are interested in Revelation uh that you know this is the time to to do more to get on podcasts like this one and others and to uh do seminars and help people to understand this book because the interest is uh very strong right now yeah it's so true and and so let's go into you and I talked in our pre- interiew and I kind of shared heart about how my husband and I both like we just in the end times um sphere of conversation in the church you have you have lots of different expressions of it people pre-trib mid-trip post-trip and we'll talk about that in a second but the thing that I think concerns us the most which is part of why I was vetting you um is is when you have people preaching a tribulation message that either invokes fear causes people to feel like they need to run and hide and just survive these years that are coming and to us that's not ever God's heart in Sharing something with us never ever to invoke fear but God is a Redemptive overcoming um he's the winner right and and his church is going to be a spotless bride meaning she's going to be thriving and not this whooped puppy who's getting trampled by the world right and so I just I came in with the desire to understand like what what is your philosophy as far as where do we want people to land as they're processing this information and maybe even to provide a filter as they're hearing other people's opinions on the end times and other esqu eschatological views what's a good filter for people to be able to determine is this a healthy view is this aligned with truth um what would you say to that yeah great question the the ultimate filter is Jesus he is the filter uh in in his throughout his life in Matthew markk Luke and John you find him many times saying don't be afraid fear not uh and the Book of Revelation the first sentence says this is the revelation of Jesus Christ so it's it's his book it reveals him uh and and the Book of Revelation has many many dimensions it's a it's a multifaceted book just like Jesus ministry had many dimensions and uh and and there's a a new testament verse where Paul says God has not given us the spirit of fear but of power and of love and of a sound mind and I believe that you know people are afraid of what they don't understand just like like children they're afraid of the dark but as they get older and they understand that if you just you know flick the switch uh on my in my room the light the light comes on and it's really nothing the darkness is nothing to be afraid of because they understand it and it's the same way with the Book of Revelation the more you understand the book look and see Jesus in it uh the less fearful we become and it like I said it's got many dimensions and one of the beauties of Revelation is chapter 21: 4 and five that describes the time when God is completely Victorious over all the forces of evil he makes a new Heaven and a new Earth and then it says there shall be no more death neither sorrow nor crying neither shall there be any more pain for the former things have passed away so Revelation gives us a lot of Hope hope that it does talk about a battle we are in a battle between good and evil between Jesus and and Satan and so there is Warfare in the book between uh God and the devil but the book assures us that he's going to win God is going to win love is going to win truth is going to win right is going to win and Evil's going to go down and that's a very important uh pillar of our understanding as we look around the world and we see so many you know terrible things happening it's very comforting it's very assuring it's very powerful in a person's life to realize that uh Evil's not going to going to rule forever it's going to go down and God is going to win so there's so many practical things about the Book of Revelation that are so sanctifying it does it has many verses that uh that sanctify us that lift us up closer to Jesus I think of Revelation 1 verse5 it says to him who loves us and has washed us from our sins in his own blood uh you know so that's right there and and we need to we we all need to know more about Jesus love and that his blood is enough to wash away the darkest sins that we've committed so the Plan of Salvation is in the Book of Revelation the gospel is in the Book of Revelation it talks a lot about the lamb in Revelation and it's it's a book full of power and it's the only book in the Bible that in the first chapter in verse three there's a blessing pronounced on those who read the book it says bless BL is He who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy and keep those things which are written therein where the time is at hand so it's got a lot of power inside that book that's so cool okay so let's just dive into the good stuff so when it comes to like my philosophy and I don't have a lot of philosophies when it comes to the Book of Revelation because I'm one of those that I I've read it many many times but I feel like and this is the power of media I feel like I grew up on those movies um oh what were they called they were like all the ones if you grew up in the 80s you probably grew up kind of traumatized by these movies about uh about Jesus coming back or the tribulation heads getting cut off and all of it was kind of a nightmare to watch and of course I was young I remember sitting in a church and the lights were out it was an evening service and they were playing some kind of movie about the tribulation and I just remember being terrified and I pulled my little feet up off the ground cuz I was afraid a monster was going to grab my ankles cuz the whole room was so scary and I just remember the messaging I got was you better love God hard enough that that you're willing to die for him which is probably a pretty good message but I was still terrified and so my Association of the last days was was pretty traumatizing if you will you know use that term so as an adult now which I don't carry all that trauma anymore but as an adult now when it comes to pre-trip mid-trip post-trip you know people's biggest concern concern with when is the rapture usually comes down to am I going to have to live through the tribulation that's usually the biggest concern for it I don't actually have an opinion about if it's premid or post I don't honestly care because I feel like what we do know is Jesus is coming and what I do know is there's a job to be done and so I have told the Lord God I don't know when you're coming but if there's a job to be done and you're taking us in intervals maybe it's all the trips maybe people get pulled up at different tops I don't know but if there's a job to be done let me stay and finish the job if you need man on the ground like men on the ground willing to do the work like leave us here till the job is done um so with that that was one of our questions leading in I pulled my Facebook followers and asked them what are some questions they would have in this topic so actually a lot of these questions are coming from people uh online listeners and followers and stuff that had these questions for you so one of the first questions which came from me but was echoed by many of my uh people who chimed in was is it necessary for anyone to decide if they're premid or postt trip and what are the implications of even having an opinion on that does it matter should we even care yeah great question and uh there's there's a lot of moving parts to this question and and I think I mentioned to you this The Book of Revelation and Bible prophecy is kind of like a bicycle wheel that has many spokes to the wheel and so I'm going to cover a a lot of ground as we're going through these talks I've or these these topics I've read the questions too from your your Facebook group and they're you know I picked and choose one after the other to see which one because there's so many but uh let me just talk about the word tribulation itself um first of all if you look up the word tribulation in in the New Testament uh I have found that every time the word is used it's always talking about what the people of God go through uh for instance in John 16:33 Jesus told his disciples uh in this world you shall have tribulation but be of good cheer for I have overcome the world so Jesus is very honest with his disciples he said it's not going to be an easy Road for my followers but uh I'm going to win be of good cheer you know keep your faith be strong because I have overcome the world so there he says tribulation is something that his people are going to go through uh in the book of Acts 14:22 Paul said uh we through much tribulation must enter the kingdom of God in the Book of Revelation chapter 1 John is on the island of Patmos he's a prisoner a Roman prisoner on an island a Roman uh basically like an Alcatraz type of an island and in verse n he says I John am your brother and your companion in Tribulation so tribulation is something that Christians have gone through throughout history if you look at the early Christians uh they all went through except while Judas you know he hung himself and John survived and was on the island of Patmos but all the other disciples uh they were persecuted and if you look at the history of Christianity the early church suffered they suffered under the Roman emperors and going into the Dark Ages they suffered under the uh the papal Empire the Inquisition you go down farther you can see Christians suffering in England Christians have suffered in China they've suffered in Muslim countries they've gone through tribulation down throughout history so it's not really realistic to think that we're not going to go through anything now obviously we don't have tribulation all the time you know and we don't really we don't uh relish it we don't want to go go through it but uh Jesus is very straightforward with us that being his follower does often not always uh but it does involve suffering and so the word tribulation applies to Christians down throughout history now when we get to the the topic of uh pre-trib midrib post-trib like you mentioned that's a very uh that's a that's a big question and from what I've studied the Book of Revelation can really be read with different different glasses there's three major com competing schools of interpretation you can call them so let's say you read the book of Revelation with the pair of glasses on which it's it's a a theological word but I can explain it it's called prism and that that word basically is an interpretive school that the Book of Revelation was largely fulfilled in the time of John the destruction of Jerusalem Nero was the Antichrist it's all back a long time ago that's it uh and then there's the second pair of glasses is called f ISM which uh basically believes that except for the first three chapters starting with chapter 4 and onward the most of the Book of Revelation takes place during the tribulation after the Rapture when we're gone that's the futurist view which is really the most popular View today and then there's another view which is the uh the historicist view which is really you can put those glasses on and read Revelation from a historicist perspective and and historicist is based on the word historical and that is basically the uh the doctrine of the Protestant reformers and you can just go down through them all Luther Wesley Calvin hus Jerome Etc and they believe that prophecy has been it there was a lot of it fulfilled in the past in the time of Jesus in the early church and a lot of it has been fulfilled down throughout the history of Christianity in the rise of the woman drunk with the blood of the Saints in Revelation 17 the rise of the Beast the persecution that's gone on for a long time and then they believe that it would climax uh before the return of Jesus and that's the view that I strongly believe in from all my research that prophecy does have an application some of it like to the destruction of of the temple that Jesus said not one stone will be left another the whole thing will be thrown down you can take it down through the history of the early church the persecutions they went through through you can go down through the Dark Ages go down to the rise of America come down to the final days and uh and that's that's the way I understand it and I think the more that we understand the less fearful we are and the more confidence that we have in God that he's in charge he's he understands and has predicted the rise and fall of Nations and he's got it all he's sitting on his throne there's nothing that surprises him and yes there will be a final crisis but uh Jesus is going to bring us through no matter what happens just like he brought his his early church through and down throughout history he said Lo I'm with you always even to the end of the world that's so good so I've actually thought before you know how sometimes there will be a prophecy and say it's even a personal prophecy and then when that word plays out you're like oh that's not at all how I expected that to look but in reflecting on the prophecy that makes sense that that's what the Lord was speaking about and so how much would you say of the Book of Revelation which maybe this is a a silly question but we oftentimes think we see so clearly before something comes about but especially in the realm of Prophecy our imaginations are so small and we usually think in terms of things we've already seen because that's what our brain has capacity for how much of ration do you feel like we literally have no clue like we've built up all these ideas of what the tribulation will be like if there is a seven-year tribulation you know what a Rapture will look like how much of it do you feel like we just have no understanding of it and and that the point of Revelation is not to describe those events so much at all as it is to accomplish something else does that question make sense yeah it does and there's there are certain things that we we don't there's a lot of things that we don't know know and that we have to wait until these things certain things happen but there are many things that God has predicted that we can understand uh things that have happened in the past we know Jesus predicted the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and it happened the Romans surrounded the city burned Jerusalem and the temple to the ground and Jesus predicted that to his disciples and they were looking for it and so before the Romans came and destroyed the city they got out and they went to this little town of Pila and they were protected and no Christian died in the siege of the Romans in 70 AD so there are certain things that we can know and other things that we can't know I think that there's a lot in the Book of Revelation that we can understand although there there are some things we have to wait until as some people say the unrolling of the scroll uh now I want to go back to your your question about pre-trip mid-rib and post-trip this is very important and the whole idea of pre Tri is the idea that Jesus is coming for the church uh before the seven years of tribulation and the midrib idea is that Jesus is coming for his church in the middle of the seven years of tribulation and the post-trib idea is that Jesus is coming at the for his church at the end of the seven years of tribulation but what I I don't think enough people are asking the question where does the whole idea of a seven-year period of tribulation come from in the first place is this really biblical where do we get this idea and those movies we watched in the 80s yeah the movies that scared you when you were a little kid yeah they terrified you yeah and I know there's so many books like left behind and there's so movies and novels Etc but I've really taken a hard look at this and I've studied this for years I've written about it in uh many of my books and when you look at if you look at a concordance there is no place in the Old Testament or the New Testament that specifically directly clearly explicitly refers to seven years of tribulation it's not there uh the the the mother text that is used to support this theory is Daniel 9:27 Daniel 927 is the great text and I'll just try to make it simple for I don't know how many people have actually read that verse but Daniel 927 says he shall confirm the Covenant with many for one week and in the midst of the week he will cause the sacrifice to cease and so people interpret that verse to mean he is the Antichrist he will make a covenant with the Jews uh During the onewe period which in Prophecy a day is it represents a year so one week refers to seven years because there's seven days in a week day for year seven years and then in the middle of the week which would be three and a half years in he will cause the sacrifice to cease and they interpret he to be the Antichrist he will make a covenant with the Jews during the seven years the the church will be raptured at the beginning of the seven years in the middle of the seven years uh the Antichrist will stop the sacrifices of the rebuilt Temple and this whole theology is built on that interpretation of that verse but the reality is the verse doesn't say anything about seven years of tribulation it doesn't say anything about the Antichrist it doesn't say anything about a rebuilt Temple all of that is being read into the text and if you go back historically uh one of the greatest commentators of in all of Christian history is Matthew Henry he lived in the late 1600s early 1700s he wrote Matthew Henry's Bible commentary it's in Pastor libraries all over the world and when you look at Daniel 9:27 written by Matthew Henry he says that he is Jesus Christ and that during the three and a half years of his ministry in the middle of that seven-year period three and A2 years in which was his Minister was three and a half years from the time that he was baptized to the time that he died that Jesus is the one who died on the cross and caused the sacrifices to cease by his death on the cross so there so the Jewish sacrifices were of no value because the great sacrifice had been offered and so these theologians see the 70th week of Daniel following the 69th week and that the whole context of the prophecy is the Messiah and and so to take the 7th week of Daniel to lift it up to move it down to th000 years drop it down at the End of Time call it the seven years of tribulation and then you have all the debates is it pre-trib midrib or post-trib this whole Monumental structure of seven years of tribulation is all based on an interpretation of Daniel 9:27 which really isn't solid it's really a prophecy about the Messiah the prince Jesus his death on the cross and putting an end to the sacrif and in one of my books end time delusions I have a whole chapter called the 70th week of Daniel delusion and I show that it's an end time delusion to believe uh based on that verse that there's going to be a seven-year tribulation and the church is going to be raptured at the beginning and you know it's just I could go on and on and on but it's not really a solid interpretation of that verse see I've never heard that verse at least not in that context and so yeah I have a feeling step had something here Stephen my husband is here for you listeners by the way I did not introduce my husband but he is also a theologian so I invited him on the call um but my I had thought that the seven-year time frame came from the timelines that are mentioned in Revelation of three and a half years with the bows and the trumpets and the things Stephen say what you're gonna say because I have a feeling you're thinking like I'm thinking so and and I think I agree with you Steve that there's been a gross misunderstanding of Daniel's 70 weeks and the understand of that as far as transferring that to tribulation what is your thoughts is are your thoughts along the same line as far as the millennial reign of Christ because there's only one passage in Revelations that even asserts of a millennial Reign yeah that's a whole that was not in my list of questions I'm like wait you're taking us another Direction don't take us another I I've written a book called the Millennium uhuh have a whole I have a it's a small book a pocket book it's on Amon on White Horse Med sells it and I go into great detail on that topic and like you said the uh the millennial period is really only mentioned one time uh in the New Testament which is in the Book of Revelation chapter 20 and so you have to really study that chapter when does it start what happens during the period what happens at the end uh during that period Satan is bound at the end of that period there's a there's a resurrection at the beginning of it uh it says blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection they will reign with Christ a thousand years and and then Satan is loosed at the end of the thousand years and it says the rest of the Dead uh live not again until the thousand years are finished so there's the first resurrection at the beginning of the Millennium there's the second Resurrection at the end of the Millennium Satan then gathers all those who are resurrected for a final battle against the New Jerusalem fire comes down from God out of heaven and devours them and so it's interesting when you really look at that chapter and read it verse by verse by verse and I I I know it by heart I could quote it from top to bottom there really is no verse in that chapter that specifically says that the Saints are going to Reign on Earth during the Millennium and everything's going to be good Satan's going to be bound the Bible does say be bound but but people again just like Daniel 9:27 they're reading details into the text that are not really there and I see that happening in so many ways you know it's kind of like it reminds me of the of the rabbis uh when when Jesus was here and this is a big point for me the rabbis had a certain belief of what the Messiah was going to do when he appeared he was going to conquer the Romans he was going to sit on the throne of David he was going to exalt the Jewish leaders he was going to rule from Jerusalem they they all knew this is what the messiah's going to do and they had that that track in their minds that this is what's going to happen and then when Jesus came he didn't do that he told his disciples the son of man I'm going to Jerusalem I'm going to be rejected by the scribes and the teachers of the law I'm going to be beaten I'm going to be crucified and on the third day I will rise again and he knew that from part of it was Daniel 9:27 that the Messiah was going to be cut off and cause the sacrifices deceased but because the rabbis had this this uh track in their minds of what was supposed to happen when Jesus came to do something totally different they were com they were clueless and they rejected him because he didn't fit their sequence and the same it's very similar to what's happening today people have in their minds this this prophetic sequence of what's supposed to happen Rapture seven years rebuilt Temple Antichrist Armageddon against the Jews they've got this basic sequence and what I do in my book and delusions is I look at the at the Bible verses that are used to support this sequence one by one and then we ask you know is this really what these verses really say and Daniel 9:27 is a primary example that the text doesn't say you know what people say it says and that's where we all your wife asked me at the beginning you know when we were when she was betting she asked me a question and one of the questions was what do you hope that people will uh what do you hope from these interviews and and one of my uh my greatest hopes is that people will be motivated to restudy the Bible carefully to see what does it really say yeah that's so good Stephen did you have a follow-up point or no yes I do yes I do I've got quite a few now okay well we do have but we do have a bazillion question to get through just a just a rule of thumb I think that I'm learning as I'm you know I'm reading through Scott MC's book Revelation for us and I just finished courton fe's book how to read the Bible for all it's worth and I think mcnight has quite a few books on on that narrative like the blue parakeet and stuff uh one of the rules that that are are principles he says that the scriptures can never mean something to us that it didn't mean to that it did not mean to the original audience that it was written to as in we have to interpret it through that lens of when John writes this Revelation he's writing to that southern Turkish area of seven churches and the whole book not just the first three chapters is written to those churches and we read we should read Revelations through the lens of what it would mean to those Jewish and Greek dissident Believers in the face of a pagan culture what John was trying to say to them do you feel like that's a good interpretive tool or is there something more we can add to that in Reading Revelation yeah yeah great question I I understand completely what you're saying and I think that interpretive tool has its place but it's not comprehensive uh there were you know John when he wrote the Book of Revelation he wasn't thinking to himself I'm writing to my context I'm writing to first century Believers John wasn't thinking any of that he was on the isop Patmos he heard a voice he turned around to see The Voice he saw Jesus walking in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks he saw Jesus glorified his he was dressed like a priest his face was like the son he fell down on his face as a dead man and Jesus laid his hand on him and said don't be afraid I'm the first and the last what you see WR in a book and send to the seven churches that are in Asia and so the whole book of Revelation is basically John just receiving what he was given by Jesus uh and then sharing that with us and I think a lot of those things some of the things did make sense to him but a lot of it he didn't understand and his reader probably didn't understand at least right away I think every age there's applications like in the Book of Daniel Daniel says I heard but I understood not I didn't understand and Gabriel said to him in Daniel chapter 8:1 17 understand oh son of man for this is for the time of the end so there were certain prophecies that did apply to Daniel's day certain prophecies that apply to John's day but to say that everything in the Book of Revelation uh comprehensively must have been understood by the people in that day I I don't think that's that's legitimate I think it has a place in some instances but not in every instance there are certain things that Daniel saw uh the rise of the four beasts The Lion The Bear the leopard the dragon yeah applying to Babylon Persia Greece and Rome and it was only hundreds of years later when people lived in the time of Rome that they understood but Daniel didn't understand understand that Persia's coming next and then Greece would come after that and Rome would come after that and there'd be 10 horns and then the little horn would come up and do all these things those things were far beyond Daniel's comprehension it's good is that answer your question okay that's good yeah great great question though Stephen I appreciate that and you get you get I wouldn't throw it all out but just you know things with a grain of salt yeah that's good okay so let's let's launch into some of these questions that some of my listeners offered uh Sarah cabesa says what is your opinion about the Beast I think I've heard so many um I mean there was a thing that went around Obama is the Beast and then people are like AI is the Beast and one other person suggested America is the Beast I'm like good Lord people so what is your opinion about the Beast yeah that's right Obama was driving around in a in a leak Black Limousine nicknamed the Beast so people thought maybe this is the Beast uh you have to really study the Bible now the Beast is the specif well there's a number of beasts in Revelation uh there's there's in Revelation chapter 13 there's a beast from the sea which has seven heads and 10 horns and then later on in verse 11 which I hope to talk about before we're done there's another Beast that comes from the earth that has two horns like a lamen and spoke like a dragon and that chapter Daniel Revelation 13 when you compare it with Daniel 7 they go right together like a key into a lock Revelation 13 talks about beasts from the sea it talks about 10 horns it talks about a leopard a bear a lion a dragon a mouth speaking great things war on the Saints those phrases are all in Revelation 13 and those phrases are all in Daniel chapter 7 as well and so they they take back to Daniel 7 for the context and so Daniel 7 describes that's where Daniel has a dream in Babylon of four beasts he dreamed about a lion a bear a leopard and a dragon and the dragon has 10 horns and then there's a little horn that comes up and does certain things and in Daniel 7:23 there's an there's an interpretive principle where an angel says to Daniel the fourth Beast is the fourth Kingdom upon the Earth so he nails that down that these four beasts don't represent four limousines or you know whatever four computers these four beasts are four kingdoms Babylon which was the kingdom Daniel was living in and then it was conquered by the Persian bear Meo Persia and then leopard which represented Greece a leopard is very fast and Alexander the Great conquered the world quickly for Greece during his eight-year uh campaign and then the fourth Beast the strongest of them all was the mighty Roman Empire Empire that absorbed them all and then there's the ten horns which represented the breakdown of the Roman Empire uh among these Barbarian tribal groups that swept down from the north and divided up the Roman Empire and then there's this little horn that comes up Daniel 7 ver8 Daniel says I saw another horn a little one coming up and it says he has eyes like a man he has a mouth speaking great things and then in verse 21 he makes war against the Saints and when you when you compare this the little horn with uh with the Beast of Revelation 13 so your question is who is the Beast what's your opinion on the Beast uh that beast in Revelation 13 he has a mouth speaking great things he makes war on the Saints he has a body like a leopard a lion and uh and what's the a bear and the dragon gives him his power so the link is perfect and here's the point when you look at Daniel 7 and this is the Protestant position that the lion was Babylon and then the bear was persan the leopard was Greece the dragon was Rome there was the 10 horns representing the breakdown of the Roman Empire and then the little horn came up right out of the head of the Roman Empire with uh eyes like a man it was led by man and a mouth speaking great things making great claims and made war against the Saints and the Protestants understood that horn is the same as the Beast and the only historical legitimate uh biblical application of that horn was the Roman Catholic Church that rose up in the middle of the Roman Empire when the Roman Empire went down it came up it has eyes like a man being led by the pope he has a mouth speaking great things making great claims for itself and it made war on the Saints through the inquisitions and that was one of the reasons why the Protestants left the Catholic church was because they realized they first of all they got a hold of a Bible Luther got a hold of a Bible I found a Latin Bible started reading it and as he read the Bible he looked at the church looked at the Bible looked at the church and realized these don't they're not matching and so there's a famous saying that um that the Protestants Luther became a Protestant meaning Protestant he protested against the teachings that had come into the church that's what protestantism is all about and there's a famous Protestant saying uh and the saying is that that the when they studied the Bible they discovered Christ and then they discovered Antichrist because they were persecuted for their faith in Jesus that salvation is through Grace the Bible alone faith alone grace alone solar scripture only the Bible and the Roman Church persecuted them for that and so they put two and two together and they realized that the little horn and the Beast are the same thing and it applies to this power that's persecuting us so that was part of their historicist thinking was that prophecy was being fulfilled in history and it included the great apostasy and they understood that great apostasy applying to the Roman Church they also applied it to the woman in Revelation 17 sitting on the city of Seven Hills drunk with the blood of the Saints uh they put all these pieces together and so I guess the bottom line is that I believe what the Protestants believed I think their uh theology is much more biblical than the belief that the Antichrist is coming only in the future after the Rapture based on a misinterpretation of Daniel 9:27 I believe the Beast has been here for a long time uh it's it is the Roman Church centered in the authority of the Pope which now is the largest uh quote unquote Christian Church in the world the most power ful religion in the world uh influencing politics government leaders uh the list goes on and on and that that is the Beast uh but that doesn't mean that Catholics are all bad and I clarified this in my seminars and in my books that there's a lot of Godly Catholic people all around the world that don't really understand this because the Catholic Church doesn't encourage their their uh members to really study the Bible Luther was a Catholic monk um and God got a hold of him and he studied the Bible studied prophecy and he realized Jesus is the only way to heaven not works and Relics and confession to priests Etc it's only Jesus and then he discovered that the Beast which was persecuting him was the papal power and that was the first Beast of Revelation chapter 13 so that is a historicist view I don't believe that uh that the whole book of Revelation after chapter 4 is in the future that's futurism I believe that it's been fulfilled down throughout history the great apostasy which the Protestants all dealt with uh which Matthew Henry described clearly in his Bible commentary uh this was a symbol of the papal power and the Traditions that Rome has brought into Christianity uh and so the battle instead of being in the future after we're gone the battle has been going on for a long time between tradition and Truth between salvation by works and salvation by grace through faith in Jesus between what Jesus actually says and uh and the traditions of men so w that's that's the answer to that question and I can you know this is very easily supportable by Protestant theologians by Luther Wesley who founded the the Methodist Church Calvin who founded the Presbyterian Church uh the great uh Baptist pastor Spurgeon in London he believed this and the list just goes on and on okay okay now I do know I'm just going to toss this one in here as you're talking about the Beast uh I have always imagined and perhaps I've just imagined this wrong I've always equated the Beast and the Antichrist as the same person in my brain um because the mark of the beast and then the role the Antichrist plays and I guess my brain has always equated the two of them so you're saying they're not the same thing or are they are they two different names for the same thing or yeah and good question and let me clarify something for your your listeners um my wife is a math teacher at a Christian High School she loves math she's not into history I like history I'm not into math so when I gave my answer about who is the Beast and dealing with Protestant history etc etc you know this is something I've done a lot of study on but I know that not everybody uh you know is up on all that so I'll try to make everything as simple as I can as far as the Beast and the Antichrist the word Antichrist is only used five times in the Bible it's in first John and 2 John and the word is used in different ways it's that John says in John 1 John 2:19 he said you have heard that Antichrist is coming but and even now there are many antichrists and then in chapter 4:3 he talked about the spirit of antichrist and he said Antichrist denies the father and the son so according to First John there isn't just one primary person called the Antichrist to his coming that is really not a Biblical concept now the Protestants did understand that the Beast was Antichrist because he was against Jesus the word Antichrist means uh in against Christ or in the place of Christ and they understood that the papal power that the Pope was basically taking the place of Christ calling himself the Holy Father and the only mediator between God and Men Etc which they applied only to Jesus so I would say that the Beast is Antichrist yes okay but I would not say that there is one person coming in the future called the Antichrist himself you won't find that in the New Testament I think I'm realizing how much of my eschatology has shaped by the movies that I saw it's it's it's kind of embarrassing actually as I'm sitting here listening to you talk I'm like I always picture because well and in Revelation it does talk about the Antichrist would take a um a blow like they would die and resurrect and I think that is the idea where the Antichrist being a person comes in that it seems to be like this this Figure Head that rises up as like a false Messiah that's right yeah I I hear you and that's where the movies you know all the movies that you've watched like you said and but biblically speaking I mean the be the Beast like like I said when you compare Revelation 13 with Daniel 7 the definition of a beast is a kingdom okay and the Roman Church is a church state union it is a kingdom that's why we have ambassadors to the Vatican or the United States has ambassadors to the Vatican uh the idea that the Beast is one single person just isn't biblical it does say the Beast would be wounded By The Sword and the wound would be healed but scripturally the sword is scripture is the word of God Paul talked about take the sword of the spirit which is the word of God and the Protestant Reformation wounded the papacy with the sword of the word of God and uh and at one point it was pretty much demolished but then that wound is healing and it is coming back and today it is the most powerful religion in the world so those prophecies need to be understood uh based on scripture rather than novels and movies yeah no kidding so it sounds like we have traditionally I'll say traditionally maybe um personified entities that may be the Antichrist because I have wondered I'm like Antichrist is a spirit it's it's almost like a movement you know and we see that happening in our nation right now there's a very Antichrist um messaging coming through in our nation and I'm like is that possibly the Antichrist it's a spirit that's at work in the Nations and so I have considered that right it is there like I said 1 John 4:7 talks about the spirit of antichrist and it says you have heard that it is coming and then John said even now it is already in the world so there are many applications to uh the spirit of antichrist many antichrists that we are dealing with all the time but there the there is the Beast of Revelation 13 which is specific nation that has certain characteristics that fit history and prophecy and that's the first past and then I'm hoping we're going to get to the second beast one of your questions has to do with is America mentioned in Bible prophecy do you want to tackle that one are you ready yeah let's go ahead and I think that's the well yes it's we might as well since you're there yeah I think it just it it fits perfectly Revelation 13: 11 and I've got a little book on this that uh little pocket book called the United States in Bible prophecy and I build my case and I've done a lot of study on this I wrote an article for Charisma magazine on this this is what I talked about in the Pentagon when I had my Pentagon talked I spent the whole time discussing Revelation 13:1 and this verse says I beheld another Beast which would mean another kingdom or Nation based on Daniel 7:23 I beheld another Beast coming up or growing up out of the earth and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon and I've done seminars on this for many years and I build my case that that uh this is a nation that's coming up down near the end times because when you keep reading Revelation 13 it is active at the time when nobody can buy or sell and then it says he comes up out of the earth which is more of a Wilderness Area as compared to the Sea the first Beast comes out of the sea and Revelation 17:1 15 says the water represents people multitudes Nations and tongues lots of people and the other nations Babylon Persia Greece and Rome they came out of the the Sea of peoples in Europe and the Middle East but this Beast comes out of the earth which is more of a sparsely populated area and uh coming up the Greek word means coming up gradually like a plant growing up like a plant down near the end times out of the Wilderness Area he has two horns separating power and these horns have no crown like the first Beast first Beast has crowns because it's a it's a kingly power connected to the to this to the beast but this Beast is a crownless nation which means it's not ruled by a king it's a it's a more of a democracy and then it says he has two horns like a lamb showing that this is a a a beast or nation that has Christian features lamb likee sacrificial features it's not Jesus but it has lambik Christian features and then he will speak as a dragon when the principles of religious freedom that Jesus stood up for will eventually go out the window and I've I've got a lot of evidence that this Feast perfectly fits the United States of America the first Feast is the most powerful religion in the world the second beast is the most powerful nation in the world uh when you keep reading Revelation 13 it talks about how both of these beasts cooperate together which we can see right now more and more the Vatican in the United States the pope came to Washington DC in 2015 and gave a an address to uh both houses of Congress and we have a Catholic President a lot of strong Catholics in uh in the house the Senate government are are Supreme Court six of the nine United States Supreme Court Justices belong to the Roman Church and that doesn't mean that they're all bad or that they're all GNA do what the Pope says doesn't mean that at all but it just shows the trend of the of the linking of the first Beast and the second beast the most powerful religion and the most powerful Nation coming together and speaking like a dragon essentially means that we're going to lose our freedoms and we can see the trend right now in America uh you know cancel culture and uh there's so many things happening that if you don't go along with certain things yeah uh you know you're in trouble and we can see the writing on the wall and so so in answer to the question is American mention in Bible prophecy I think we're right there in Revelation 13311 we're the only nation that fits the prophecy we are but that the Lambs the lamb likee horns are still in place there's a lot of good in this country a lot of Jesus in this country but eventually the dragon is going to Roar and at that point we have to stand for the lamb and resist the dragon and be on Jesus side as he's getting ready to come and take us home wow okay that was good I appreciate that that actually makes a whole lot of sense because I've always wondered where does America fit in yeah we're right there yeah okay that's perfect okay so Christina asks if we had to take a guess where we are currently in the apocalyptic apoc apocalyptic timeline whereabouts do you think that we are yeah uh the simple answer to that question is in Daniel chapter 2 uh King Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had a dream of a big a big statue a big metal man with a head of gold breast of arms of silver belly of bronze legs of iron and then there was feet of iron and clay and then there were the toes and Daniel said that these represent Nations so you got Babylon Persia Greece Rome that breakdown of the Roman Empire European history and then finally you get to the toes and so in answer to your question where are we in the apocalyptic timeline my answer is we are in the toenails of Daniel 2 we are in the final stages of uh of Prophecy Before in Daniel 2 The Rock comes down from the sky which represents the kingdom of God and the coming of Jesus to get rid of uh evil and sin so I believe we're close I don't set a date White Horse media know Jesus said no man knows the day or the hour so we don't set dates we believe we're getting close we believe the most important thing is for us to have a strong relationship with Jesus every day to be based on the Bible to be a good witness for him yeah and to be you know Jesus said in Matthew 24:44 he said be ready for the son of man is coming in an hour when you don't expect so he so we just want to we want to be ready that's really good see the signs and I have a book called approaching Armageddon that deals with all the signs that are happening right now in front of us that's really good well that kind of leads into our next question that Betty Duhan asks which is are we already in the tribulation period or is that coming later and we talked about the tribulation I think what she's referencing is the bowls the seals the trumpets that that Revelation talks about being poured out um is that a first question is that a this is my thought I have thought that we oftentimes think of that as happening chronologically those bows and stuff being poured out chronologically I've considered maybe they're poured out in layers where they are stretched out over much time and they actually happen in a layered way um I'm curious your thoughts on that yeah yeah I'll try to give you a crash course you and if you uh Revelation has sequences of seven so uh well back to Daniel Daniel 2 has the big metal man which takes you down from Babylon to the end Daniel 7 has four beasts which take you down from Babylon to again the return of Jesus Daniel 8 takes you through the history Daniel 11 takes through the history Revelation follows the same pattern so Revelation Chapter 2 and three is the picture of the seven churches and those were real churches in Turkey which were are asiia minor leod deia Sardis Philadelphia uh heramos Ephesus those were real churches and that applied to those real churches but it also applies to uh stages in the history of Christianity from the time of the early church all the way down to the time of leoda which is where we are now we're at the lukewarm stage where a lot of Christians are lukewarm they're not hot they're not cold Etc so the seven uh churches take you down through history and then the seven uh seals do the same thing just like Daniel 7 Builds on Daniel 2 Revelations seals Builds on the seven churches and this is the historicist understanding that I'm sharing with you so the first seal started with the time of uh John and it was the early church the White Horse representing the early church going out conquering and to conquer and then the next horse was red because they went through persecution during the time of the Roman Empire and then the next church was black the next force was black taking you uh into the time of compromise Constantine and Beyond and the next church or the next horse was deathly pale Taking You Into the Dark Ages so again it just like the seven churches take you down through history so the Seven Seals take you down through history the seven trumpets take you down through history and so those sequences of seven take you down through history so we're in the time of the seventh Church which is Leo de we're in the time just before the seventh seal before the return of Christ we're in the time just before the seventh trumpet when the trumpet sounds and the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ uh we're we're down at the tail end of each one of these sequences but it's not it's not it's not true to say that once the Rapture comes then Revelation four five six seven the Bulls the seals the trumpets are all going to kick in after we're gone that's the future view whereas The historicist View sees these things happening down throughout history and climaxing at the end so we are down near the end but we're not I'm not expecting to disappear and then have all that kick in that actually makes more sense because I have gone through all of those so many times and tried to figure out okay where are we is it only happening in the seven years have we hit the Seven Years yet because I I don't necessarily believe in a pre-trib Rapture um I feel like the church has a job to do why would the Lord take us out when he needs us to reach the people you know so I I don't necessarily think that way but so I wondered like are we in the seven years and when do these are these happening some are they are seals and bows and trumpets happening all at the same time you know it was question I know Jen you know it took the the disciples had learned from the rabbis so they were expecting the Messiah to do all these things conquer the Romans uh sit on the throne and it took those disciples quite a while uh to finally get out of their minds the teachings of the rabbis when Jesus went into Jerusalem on the donkey they thought he's about to sit on the throne because that's what the rabbis had said and Jesus said no I'm about to die on a cross in the upper room he said this is my blood of the New Covenant shed for many for the Forgiveness of sins and they totally didn't understand that and when Jesus died they were just completely uh discombobulated you know they were totally discouraged then when he rose from the dead they couldn't believe it and so then he said let me give you a Bible study and he took them back to to Moses the law the prophets and showed them that all these things that happened were perfect fulfillments of Bible prophecy and it's the same thing today people have all these ideas from the movies and the novels that they've learned when they were little kids and what they hear the theologians say and they just accepted that this is true but they never quite make sense and so when you understand the truth and the history and the Bible and where we are things just kind of snap into place and you go oh wow that that makes sense yeah I think the historicist view makes more the most sense to me out of the things you've described um okay so Karen or Sharon Karen and Donna and Laticia had all asked about America uh Tammy and Sharon asked do you believe that the scoffield Bible account that the taking up of the church before the bad things happen is a false narrative which we kind of already addressed um but they specifically named the scoffield Bible account I don't actually know about that but yeah yeah you know I mentioned the uh the interview with John Rich the gospel singer and his book re his his song on the Revelation with Tucker Carlson and during that interview John Rich did something that totally shocked me he said that the Rapture idea came into Christianity the pre-trip Rapture it came in through a guy named Edward Irving in the 1800s in England and then it was passed on to John Nelson Darby in the 1800s in England and then it was incorporated into the footnotes of the scoffield reference Bible uh and then it went to the Dallas Theological Seminary Hal Lindsay who wrote the late great planet Earth graduated from the Dallas Theological Seminary uh Tim Le I believe he graduated from the same school and he wrote up in a novel which is Left Behind and so the SC the footnotes of the scoffield reference Bible is responsible for bringing this free trib Rapture theology into Christianity which has replaced historicism which was the view of Luther and Calvin and uh Jerome and and Wesley and Spurgeon and Matthew Henry and all the great Protestant divines who have G I would may maybe not call them divines but the theologians of the past so in answer to the to the question yes the scoffield reference Bible is the one of the culprits of bringing these ideas uh into into the church wow okay that's good to know okay well uh Sharon also asks is Jerusalem really the center of the end times events as written in the Book of Revelation I'm assuming is what she's referencing yeah good if you wouldn't mind there's one question prior to that I want to get to and then go to that question yes one that you didn't that you didn't mention and I don't remember who it was if you could look at your notes but somebody said is the rapture and the second coming the same event who do you whose name was attached to that question do you see that I will have to look for it but you feel free to dive into it while I look for it okay yeah because that was on my list and that somebody had asked that question and it ties in perfectly with the Rapture the question is is the rapture in the second coming the same event well the the word rapture isn't in the Bible just like the seven years of tribulation isn't in the Bible but the word is uh is Harpo which means caught up in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 verse uh 16 and 17 and I'll read the whole verse okay 16 and 17 it says Paul said that the Lord himself referring to Jesus shall descend from heaven with a shout so there's a shout with the voice of the Archangel there's a voice and the Trump of God so this is very loud some people say this is the noisiest verse in the Bible Jesus comes down with a voice a shout and a trepet and then it says and the dead in Christ shall rise first there's a resurrection of believers who believe in Christ when they died and then verse 17 17 says then we who are alive and remain those who who haven't died in the past and being Resurrection resurrected but we're still alive when Jesus comes uh we will be caught up there's the ter the term Harpo the Greek word which people uh apply to the Rapture when we're caught up uh and then it says we'll be caught up in the clouds with them in the air to meet the Lord and thus we shall ever be with the Lord so people apply this to the uh the Rapture and my contention is when you really read the verse it's not describing a secret event where Jesus comes quietly and snatches us out of here it's describing uh a loud visible glorious trumpet you know event where Jesus comes down from heaven the dead in Christ are raised and then we're caught up so the second coming this is the second coming when he comes down you if you call it the Rapture this is when we're caught up so they're not the same thing but they happen at the same time Jesus comes down and we go up and it is not a a pre Tri event from when you just read the text it's it's the second coming it's alloud uh glorious event nobody's going to miss it nobody's going to you know the Christians aren't just going to disappear and then people are going to wake up one day and say where' they go you know like a husband goes to bed with his wife and she's a Christian and he's not and then in the morning she's been raptured all that's left is her pajamas and maybe her false teeth and her earrings and the husband look goes over to kiss his wife you know where is my wife she's gone and then the whole world wonders what happened happened yeah that's not what first Le lonin is saying it's interesting in my notes I've got Billy Graham wrote a book called answers to Life's problems and on page 300 and Billy Graham is argu arguably one of the most you know famous Christians of History he believed that 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 17 applies to the second coming of Jesus Christ and I do too wow yep and the and the again the Rapture idea that the pre-trib Rapture that's what came in through the scoffield reference Bible yeah and the Dallas Theological Seminary yep so that makes a lot of sense that they would Happ at the same time that's right it's the same time now you're your last question and this is another big one is Jerusalem really the center of end time events um the way I would answer that is is I would say the question is which Jerusalem are we talking about because there's actually two Jerusalem in the New Testament there's the Earthly Jerusalem where Jesus was crucified right outside of and where he said not one stone would be left upon another that wouldn't be thrown down when it was destroyed by the Romans and then there's Revelation uh and Hebrews talks about this is the New Jerusalem uh in Revelation 3:12 Jesus talked about Christians who overcome who are victorious who become like the Spotless bride that you've talked about uh he said you will have a home in the city of my God which is the New Jerusalem that comes down from God out of Heaven uh Revelation uh chapter 21 describes the New Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven like a bride adorned for her husband so in answer to the question is Jerusalem the center of of uh of of the end times I would say yes as long as we understand which Jerusalem it's the New Jerusalem The Book of Revelation never mentions the Earthly Jerusalem even one time it's not there and then when it comes to Israel let me just say this one more thing uh and just like there's two Jerusalem's in the New Testament there's two israels uh First Corinthians chapter 10 verse 18 Paul talks about Israel after the Flesh and then in Galatians chapter 6 verses 14- 16 he talks about the Israel of God which is centered in Jesus Christ Christ that is made up of Jews who believe in Jesus and Gentiles who believe in Jesus who become one in Christ so people ask me the question uh is Israel the center of Bible prophecy in in the end of time I would say yes but we have to decide we have to decide which Israel is it Israel of the flesh is it just the the literal descendants of Abraham whether they believe in Jesus or not or is it the Israel of God centered in Jesus Christ made up of Jews and Gentiles who believe in the Lord and I buil my case in the book end time delusions that the Israel of that is the center of Prophecy and the Book of Revelation is the Israel of God centered in Jesus Christ and the Jerusalem of the Book of Revelation is the New Jerusalem which is our home where we want to end up Jew and Gentile who believe in Jesus that's our ultimate home for the Victorious bride like you said who want to be you know spotless and cleansed in the blood of the Lamb who get through all the traditions and falsehoods of this world who follow Jesus and the Bible and who are caught up when the Lord comes down at the second coming wow wow so many things I can feel my husband's wheels turning and I feel like if he had the chance to pick your brain we'd be here for four hours okay last question that I have we had to cut out some of the questions and we're running wow it's 7:00 look at us go um okay Donna said Revelation 12 has always gotten the best of me who is the woman clothed with the son and her baby I know the traditional thoughts on it but I keep thinking it wasn't complete and then I heard Pastor Kilpatrick imply the same thing he said he feels like he knew who she was but he didn't want to talk about it publicly at that point um so I'm a little bit uncertain what exactly she's referencing but I know there's a woman in Revelation actually no I do know what she's talking about but Revelation 12 is this a woman a person I'm going to assume it's probably not a specific person is it yeah great question the Catholics believe it's Mary I don't believe that uh and again if we look at it from a historicist perspective and we see history going on uh Paul talked about in 2 Corinthians chapter 12:3 he said that he wants to present the church as a pure virgin to Christ we are we are supposed to be a woman a pure woman so Revelation 12 John sees a woman clothed with the son which represents Christ as the son of righteousness she's standing on the moon reflecting the light of the sun that's the church and then it says she has a crown of 12 stars and then she's pregnant she has a baby she's about to be delivered of and it says the child was caught up to God and to the throne and that's Jesus and then it says that the dragon stood before the woman to Dev the child as soon as he was born and when Jesus was born uh he was in Bethlehem and Satan used Herod to send soldiers to Bethlehem to wipe out all the babies to kill Jesus but uh Jesus escaped and he he went to Egypt came back grew up lived a holy life suffered in Gethsemane died on the cross rose from the dead and went up to sit at the right hand of the Throne of God so that chapter describes the church and the birth of Christ and his uh escape from the dragon in this world and then when you keep reading the chapter it talks about how the dragon then turns its weapons of warfare against the church and it says he persecuted the woman that brought forth the male child and then you go down through history till you finally get to the end of the chapter verse 17 says the dragon was angry with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her seed who keep the Commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ that takes us down from the birth of Jesus all the way down to the end times when God has a final or last little bit of the faithful followers of Christ that love him are keeping his Commandments following his word obeying him and they're the ones that the devil's making war on so wow that's the history of that chapter okay wow so this we have covered so much ground and before and you were right that we it's it's so much to cover but Stephen did you have any last questions for him before I let him get back to his dinner got to be one Stephen just one I I think he's probably got a lot no I don't think I have anything that could be reasonably answered in the short amount time we have but it was great it's great to hear your perspective I appreciate you sharing that I look forward to maybe reading some of your books here pretty soon and thank you for sharing what you're sharing it's good to hear a different perspective than the 1970s versions of Tim Le and Jeremy Jenkins the Boogey Monster versions those are I mean it's a great fictional story but theology yeah and Stephen I just let you know I am happy to you know connect with you outside of this podcast and you know we could do a zoom meeting I can answer your questions I'm open to that with anybody you know that's why I'm here I'm here to serve the Lord and I'm available to be a friend and to uh discuss any anything you want I appreciate it thank you so much that was a that was a Christmas gift wrapped up an invitation for Stephen man um well Steve thank you so much for sharing all of this as I can tell exactly what you were saying like we just scratched the surface but I'm hoping that your responses they were very satisfying for me very eye openening very kind of Paradigm shifting um but refreshing at the same time because it it feels like it took away that sense of impending doom that has surrounded eschatology at least for me anyways and uh and so I feel like get kind of brightened the mood a little bit and restored a sense of um balance and uh I don't know just a good healthy overview and approach okay so you have mentioned a number of your books in this interview for those who are listening he has mentioned quite a few because he has quite a few he has over 40 books um but a few of them that he wanted to highlight and that he did mention is approaching Armageddon end time delusions and the United States in Bible prophecy did you want to mention any of these or share anything more about any of those sure sure uh approaching Armageddon I call it prophecy 101 it's simple and it deals with the signs of the times what's happening in the world and how this is fulfilling biblical prophecy so that's very simple uh and then I have end time delusions which is a little more involved it deals more with history and the different uh competing schools of prism futurism historicism the Protestant Reformation the Beast Etc so uh that book is has been around for quite a while and it's very popular and then the other one is a little one called the United States in Prophecy that just really focuses on uh Revelation 13:1 the Beast with two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon so each of those topics are different uh i' I've done my best Jen to make these topics simple I hope that I've accomplished that that most people have been able to follow along um you know if they don't get everything the main thing is to have a relationship with Jesus and study the Bible but God has a lot he wants to teach us and his word his sure word of Prophecy is powerful and there's a lot of light for those who will dive in and pray for the Holy Spirit and ask God to help them to understand these things and what's going on around us so good well you did a wonderful job and uh and it really was it was refreshing it actually really really really was and so you guys make sure you go and get your hands on his books approaching Armageddon if you'd like kind of to dip your toes into the waters and get kind of a a newbie overview and and introduction to this topic and time delusions again if you want a deeper dive and the United States in Bible prophecy if you kind of want to know where we fit and so thank you so much Steve for sharing all of this it was uh really insightful and I look forward to hearing more from you in the coming days thank you so much Jen I appreciate the opportunity thank you Stephen for uh for H kicking in for a little bit God bless you and those who uh are listening and may we all keep our faith uh and as they say sometimes I've heard it said I hope to see you either here there or in the air so J thank you for the opportunity I love it yes and you guys thanks so much for listening listen if you didn't catch everything we covered listen to the episode a second time because maybe it'll sink in a little differently I always catch more when I watch something a second time or listen to it again and then send this to a friend if you have friends who have um asked their questions about the end times and they've asked you questions or they've talked about it and they've wondered listen there's a reason Revelation is in the Bible there's a reason it's there we're meant to have some insight and so as we head out Mr Steve would you be willing to pray over the listeners as just a final a final outro yes I would be happy to do that thank you uh dear father in Heaven thank you for this opportunity to be with Jen and her husband and with everybody that's been listening uh to this program and I just pray for for them I pray for the listeners I pray for myself all of us Lord we all were're in a a world of conflict and battle we all need Jesus we need the Holy Spirit we need the power of your love and your word and your grace and just encourage us all that at the at the back of the book you will win and that you are the Victorious Son of God you died for all of our sins every one of them you rose from the dead you're up in heaven and you're coming back so bless us all may we all be ready for that great day and may we live together with you forever and ever and ever we pray in Jesus name amen amen well you guys thanks so much for listening make sure that you are subscribed to Java with genen podcast anywhere that you are listening to this podcast just hit subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes and make sure that you go check out uh Steve Walberg wherever you find him online Steve is there anywhere that they can follow you on social media or anywhere that you like to share stuff on a regular sure yes we have our our main website is whors media.com uh we have YouTube channel they just go to YouTube and then type in white hor media we've got a lot of videos there I also have a Thursday live event uh when I'm in town every Thursday four o'clock Pacific time from 4 to 5: where I give a little bible study and people can ask questions so we're we're out there and um we we welcome any involvement from anyone for sure that's awesome you guys will drop those links in the show notes share this with a friend and we will see you guys next week thanks so much thanks so much for tuning in to Today's Show listen let's stay connected come follow me on Instagram at Java withth Jen where you can follow the latest and say hey it's a really great way to stay in touch many of you have also asked how you can support the show you can make donations through the anchor app or on patreon or of course by sharing rating and reviewing on social media and iTunes as well your heartfelt feedback always reminds me why I do this also don't miss our merch store where you can get super cool Java with genen swag and coffee find it at Java withth genen merch.com until next time remember hearing God's voice is simple and he wants to be a part of your everyday life see you next week [Music]