(Tamara): As you have already said, in your lectures and what you do in your job you are a role model for people in similar situations and can, of course, help them much better than any doctor can, even if they have the best knowledge about medicine and diagnosis and what it means. But, you simply experienced it on your own body, maybe not exactly like every patient, but at least you experienced something like that. And you can then, of course, help people to find their situation less hopeless. Do you have the feeling that people without a handicap can understand this at all? What hard work it is to get everything out of your body that it can give you in terms of movement and to manage that both mentally and physically?
(Kirsten): I don't think so, they don't have to. (Tamara): Because I don't believe that either.
(Kirsten): They doesn't have to either, because... Let's use another example. I think an amateur athlete can only understand, to a certain extent, what a top athlete really does and that's exactly what it is. I'm going to say an armchair coach, couch potato, who pretty much plays mostly on the sofa, cannot really understand one-to-one what it means to be a participant in the Olympic or Paralympic Games. That's the fascination, the success, everyone wants to participate, and time and again you are asked, "how do you get there? What do you have that others don't have?" This is something very individual, something very personal, be it my fighting spirit, be it my masochistic streak. I don't know, I have no idea, but it is something that others can't understand, something that others simply don't have either. Whether this is genetic, however, is caused by life experience, I do not know, but it remains a fascination. And that's good, because that's what makes it so elitist, and that's what makes it so special. (Tamara): But that also means, especially when we think of our young American football players, who at the moment are almost all only active in amateur sports, There are always guys who think, "I'd like to play in college" or even "I want to play in the NFL", a real pro. One thing is now quite clear, it is always very hard work. It always has to do with a lot of sweat, with a lot of pain and tears and sacrifice. (Kirsten): And also a lot of fun. (Tamara): Exactly, but the only thing that's important to me is that the guys only see the fun, the guys all think, "this is all really great when playing in the NFL." But what do I have to do for it? That is simply an exorbitant amount more than what I do in my hobby sport. (Kirsten): So this is also something my parents gave me, "if it hurts, keep going." This is something where the chaff usually separates from the wheat. And if you keep going, you're already elitist. Always a little bit more than others do. Focusing on yourself, comparing yourself with others can help, but not always, by far not always. And above all, not in Paralympic sports, because simply every disability is very individual and every person is individual. But I also believe that it is good to experience something together, especially in team sports: fun, defeat, success, whatever. But, still you should stay with yourself, with your focus, what can I do? What talents do I have? Where am I particularly useful in this game structure? If I'm a defender, then I'm not a striker or a free roaming defender. I honestly don't know much about American football, what's so... (Tamara): It is not that important either. It applies to every sport. (Kirsten): But then that's how it is. And if someone comes out of their stance faster than me, they are a sprinter and I am not. But, maybe I'm a harder tackler or whatever... was that right?
(Tamara): Yes, that was right. (Kirsten): Then that's how it is. And I can just get to 100 percent for me, but I think in the framework of things it's somewhat of an automatism. But working on me and being okay for me is a basic prerequisite for things to work out well for the team. And today kids compare themselves once again with the perfect. Even people who have nothing to do with swimming know who Michael Phelps is. Older people know who Mark Spitz is. They have nothing to do with swimming, but they know of these people because they were simply exorbitantly successful. If you compare me now with a Franziska van Almsick or a Britta Steffen and we swim together, I can't swim as fast as they do, that's normal, but Grandma Erna on the red sofa at home thinks, "well, Kirsten can't do anything." Because she simply cannot put things into perspective. Always comparing only to the best and that's what we have to get away from. We have to get along with each other somehow and that is already enough work. (Tamara): Yes, and also his one's own improvements, finding a way somehow and working on it. That is always the most important thing, that's true. In your normal civilian life, so to speak, how do you non-handicapped people normally handle you? I think it is often observed that people without a handicap are relatively insecure in dealing with people with a handicap, especially with wheelchair users. We had that for a short time before, so less the children, more the adults. Are there things that you encounter frequently and would like to clear out, where you would like to say: "Leave it alone or do it differently"? (Kirsten): Yes, it is a phenomenon that this helper syndrome comes out very quickly, "can I help you?" And sometimes, not at all, or very often actually not waiting for an answer, but simply grab on, in my case on the back the handles and push me. I go crazy!
(Tamara): I understand. (Kirsten): And also to accept the answer "no" and not to take it as an insult. "No. You asked me if you can help me and I say no, thanks." And then the topic is done. Then they are a little perplexed like, "what's wrong with her?" Simply because they don't understand what this question might also trigger in me. That I simply look needy and I don't want that, I want to look normal and self-sufficient, self-determined. And this question "can I help?" which, I know it is meant nicely, the answer is also nice, but in silence I always think to myself, you're here for five minutes now, you're sitting in your trunk and you know exactly what you want to do, and at least four people ask you if they can help you. Now again others say, "be glad that they are so helpful". Yes, that's right. But I think you also have to understand that we handicapped people have to learn to ask when we need help. And that's what I do, be it in the supermarket, when I can't reach something, ...
(Tamara): By the way, I also have to... (Kirsten): Sometimes I don't ask because I'm having a bad day. Yes, short grown people have to do that too. Especially with these soy products and goat cheese, they are always at the top. We can change that, dear supermarket makers. But I think I understand that everyone is somehow challenged to ask for help. That must also be understood. My father is 82 years old. He still goes crazy today when he has to sit in the front seat of the car and I go to the back to get the wheelchair out. Then he always thinks, "they all think I'm a bad father." I then say, "Dad, let them think what they want. It's my routine, my life." I say, "you can sit until I'm done." I don't think he ever really understands that, that's that generation. But, I think the other generations can learn a little bit too. (Tamara): Exactly, but that's why there must be more in the normal picture, it must be for more normal for people, that people with a handicap, for example, are out and about in wheelchairs and then I think maybe it will be, that at some point people will become more adjusted to the situation.
(Kirsten): Those are also things that we do. We do self-experiences so you can spend a day in a wheelchair and use public transport everywhere in the city...
(Tamara): Have fun. (Kirsten): This is a very formative experience for everyone, because then they can really understand what it means. It's enough that when you're on the streetcar here in Berlin, you always have the seatbelt buckles in front of your eyes. That's not so nice either. (Tamara): No, that's right. Only twenty percent of wheelchair users are female, which I found very interesting in the research. This means that as a wheelchair user you are, so to speak, a minority within the minority, that's how it is. I'm more interested in this from a female point of view, because in recent years the topic of sexism has become a very popular topic of public discussion. Which I also think is good, because every woman can actually say something about it, every woman is actually constantly affected by sexism. But I'm interested in whether it is the same for you or do you feel that you have to deal with sexism more often? Or is it like that for you, due to the fact you are out and about in a wheelchair, so to speak superseded by the larger problem of people have with handicapped people. (Kirsten): Yes, I think that comes very close. One is also of the opinion that paraplegic immediately means you can't feel anything below the navel. This is also not correct, every paraplegic is different, I am also an incomplete paraplegic, that is different again. But, I do think that there's a little bit of that going along with it, along the lines of, "she may look like a woman, but she's not really a woman anymore." (Tamara): Are you often not even perceived as a woman anymore or you don't feel so perceived? (Kirsten): Yes, I do, but I can't go to...
(Tamara): You can't see through the people, I already know that. (Kirsten): Yes, I am also told that I am an attractive woman, and I also don't have the feeling, that men look at me less than non-handicapped women or something. But, I'm just not the normal man's type. I just don't wear high heels, a miniskirt or wiggle my butt. I think this is also an association with hostility or sexist insinuations, this is my interpretation and my perception, because a man needs a signal, a sexy signal. (Tamara): I wouldn't be able to confirm that, I'm out and about a lot in sneakers. That doesn't mean anything.
(Kirsten): I am often out and about in a swimsuit... (Tamara): Maybe the clientele in the pool is just a different, maybe that's the point, I don't know. (Tamara): You are not on the streets in a bathing suit, so in this respect...
(Kirsten): No, I wouldn't want to put anyone through that. So I can understand that partly, but on the other hand and now I will probably make enemies, to be honest, you also have to look at how fashion is and with some things I have to say quite honestly, "Holla die..."
(Tamara): Sure, that is not necessary either. (Kirsten): It is what somehow sets the male hormone, the male gene, in error mode and then the brain is suddenly down below and no longer up above. But for God's sake, I don't want to experience something like that and I don't envy anyone who has experienced something like that. I can only say that maybe a wheelchair user is probably not their type. And I hope I don't give anybody stupid ideas.
(Tamara): No, we hope not.