41 - The Compassionate Model of Recovery with Charles Roberts

[Music] welcome to the recover you podcast with kylen and Patrick Turin it's here that we talk about sex addiction betrayal trauma mental emotional and physical health faith and anything and everything needed to recover you to your most authentic self that God created you to be welcome everyone to another episode of recover you I'm so excited to have Charles Robert on this episode Charles is a licensed professional counselor in Louisiana a licensed professional clinical counselor with supervisor designation in Ohio he is a Developmental and relational trauma therapist a certified experiential therapist and he has extensive training in EMDR and Psycho Drama and is certified in brain spotting Charles completed his training for sex addiction therapy from The International Institute of trauma and addiction professionals he is the owner of the welcoming place counseling and coaching LLC and in addition to running a successful Private Practice Charles contracts with on-site workshops spas in Tennessee leading three group intensives healthy love and relationships healing trauma and living centered as well as being a Tara Hope recovery coach so we are so so so excited to have you on the podcast today I'm really excited to be here and I will make one correction in the bio because they have not updated it and that is that I'm no longer licensed in Louis Louisiana moving to Ohio I just let that one go and I'm just licensed here sorry louisi that's all right they're lost for sure well we are so excited to have you on the podcast um many people in our immediate circle are going to recognize the fact that you were Patrick's therapist through recovery and we just so appreciate you and we also want to put a little caveat in here just for anybody listening to recognize that we have had this conversation before this episode is recorded that we all give full permission to talk about um our personal story and Patrick's sessions if that comes up so if anything is said it is done with full permission this is not something that Charles takes lightly um when it comes to uh sharing details of his client sessions or anything like that he's very very careful about privacy so we just want to make sure that if you're listening and you hear anything that kind of raises a red flag he has full full full permiss from us to share anything about our story and any of the experiences that we've had together so we want to just make sure that's very clear but we are so excited to have you on today because um one of the things that really stood out in all of our interactions with you was what a compassionate therapist um you are and just what a compassionate person you are and how you show up and and use the compassionate model in all of your interactions and Patrick would always come back from his sessions and share kind of what what happened and how what you guys talked about and every single time um it was just it was so impactful and helpful and you know of course he would go and share when we were struggling with something and and all of the advice that you would give to him that he would then give to me I also very much appreciate it and so we just we just really want to thank you um publicly first of all but um you know you've made a huge impact on our lives but the thing that we've really noticed you know we we uh have just really this the thing that has been really primary from you is the empathy and compassion and so I'm just curious how much of that is just who you are how much of that has been learned from life or even you know come from your training or experience I love that question um so um there's multi multi multifaceted answer here one is that I I do believe that I was born a sensitive human being right so I'm pretty sure um came into the world pretty pretty sensitive um and and with that uh have a whole lot of trauma that I absorbed uh in my early years my developmental years uh and so being a sensitive boy and um in a in a very traumatic Place made me very aware very hypervigilant uh I was also i' also developed into a caretaker uh care care for everyone else's needs and so you know so I came into this field uh Midway in my life actually in my 30s um with a lot of trauma history and a lot of therapy I had some really great therapists really great compassionate therapists I had a few that were not so much I won't get into those stories but you know you learn from good examples and bad examples um and then I would say that my my um my schooling my education was definitely steeped in uh compassion we learned a lot about Carl Rogers right uh Dr Carl Rogers and uh he talks a lot about unconditional positive regard and the importance of the the Therapeutic Alliance right that there's you can be the most brilliant therapist out there and do the most evidence-based practice but if you don't have a the a solid Therapeutic Alliance then it'll all fall flat and he really believed that and and I did too and I was drawn to that I don't know really why I was drawn to that the other thing I would say um is that uh one of my favorite names for God is Emmanuel so I I love I just love that name God With Us and I I think uh there's a lot of people out there who would believe um you know think of God as more as the judge or the one who condemns us and all but I just like to think of God as just someone who really wants to be with us and the best the best definition I heard uh in my life uh for Joy was being with someone who wants to be with you right really resonated with me so I think all of those things together just pointed me in a direction and I was drawn to you know to reading like the work of Sher Geller up in Canada on on theraputic presence um she's written some great books on on that um and and uh everything and everything my training and understanding has led me there and I have to say also I don't frankly understand anybody who would work in this space without compassion I actually don't know how you would do it without being completely burned out you you had uh mentioned something towards the beginning uh saying you know you learn from the good and bad examples and there's so much in my life that I feel like people have been a good friend to me that has then taught me how to be a good friend to other people and so that is so true I think and so helpful when we can kind of say what how does it feel when somebody talks to me this way or how does it feel when this happens and then either not repeating it or passing it along when it is beneficial and so yeah um did you have any questions no no no questions you know I can I can attest to the to the the way you um the way you are uh you know the one story that I will tell people and I always remember this is um during our full therapeutic disclosure you know what you know you walk into that you know it's something you have to do you're full of Shame you think you're the worst person in the world and you're about ready to read in graphic detail all the shameful things that you wanted to take to the to your grave and so you know that that in that moment you know you're you're almost at your most vulnerable I don't know if there's any other moment that's more vulnerable than that but that's pretty vulnerable and and I'll never forget that you know you we you sat very close to me um and I and I I'll be honest like initially I was like why is he sitting so close to me but you sat very close to me and because you knew how hard it was and you immediately put your hand on my back and and like just describing that story just knowing as I was talking through this multi what was a multi-page document full of hard things and full of shameful things and and uh you know just you I could feel the love I could feel the compassion and it still you know just recounting the story gives me chills you know just thinking about it because it was that moment you know that that hey you know no matter what happened and and you know no matter what happened between kylen and I which you know I I'm sure you've seen it it actually went well for us but it I'm sure they don't always go well um but I I just you know I can I can attest personally to the amount of compassion and empathy that you show in you know through that one example well I would say the impact that it made right right absolutely y I will say with that I'm sorry to interrupt you there I will say with that this is why I insist and some people don't right that when we're doing a formal disclosure there are two therapists there because being one of the most difficult things that that the addict has to do and one of the most difficult things that the Betrayed spouse has to hear like you need two therapists who are fully focused on their clients like super important for that because you're right it is it's one of the heaviest kind of sessions I ever sit in absolutely yeah yeah I'm I'm mindful too um uh I was thinking before this uh interview about Patrick ks's belief about the four the four core beliefs of the addict and and this is this will shed a little bit more light on why I come at it from from compassion I wrote him down so I get him right here he said uh the the core beliefs are I'm basically a bad unworthy person no one would love me as I am my needs are never going to be met if I have to depend on others and sex is my most important need yeah and and they all flow out of that I'm basically a bad and unworthy person yeah oh yeah yeah I don't see humans that way but I completely understand humans seeing themselves that way when that's how you feel walking into you know that's how you feel upon Discovery or whatever and then that's how you feel walking into the disclosure as well that's right yeah well and and not to turn this into a theology podcast too but uh just as a h recovering ex ex angelical fundamentalist um um I will say that a lot of the way that Rel a lot of the way that religion is communicated teaches that first point that you're fundamentally bad and and I've really shifted my thinking in recent years to think no God created you good he created you good and there is sin in the world and and and that you know this evil comes from it's it's not that you were created bad and so that I think that is a a belief that that tiny little shift can make a huge impact in how we see ourselves our willingness to forgive ourselves how we view other people and how we treat other people and just you know how we interact in the world in general you work both with the addicted and also heavily with um betrayed spouses as well what do you think are you know the Hallmarks of healing or living a recovered life are they the same in in both um are they a little bit different what does that look like oh gosh what a good question well I I want to start by saying one thing I never do is see the addict and the recovering spouse you know I don't I don't see both of them because I find it really and I'm actually never tried I can't even imagine right giving my full self my full compassionate self to one and then having to do the other because I don't know I don't know how people do it some people may do that so because I want to show up with all my compassion All My Love for for one and that what that does not mean is that I don't have some empathy for the other when I'm working so I work from the same uh the same mindset um and I do think there are some some some similarities um in working with both let me see if I can um identify what those are so I I A lot of times we'll quote I know Pat has heard this this quote um by Johan Hari right that the opposite of addiction is what is it let me see how does it go Pat do you remember connection yeah that's right that one yeah the opposite of add it's not sobriety the opposite of addiction is connect ction right so so I do believe um in in both instances working with the addict or the Betrayed partner that we start from that framework that for sure addiction is a breakdown in connection I think of it as a dissociative uh phenomenon if you will a total disconnection from self from core emotions and from our relationships right because how can you be totally connected in a in a partnership if you're having to Orphan all parts of yourself through addiction right um so uh so w with with that regard uh the way I would approach treatment for the addict is let's let's talk about what it would be like to reconnect with the truth of who you are the truth and goodness of who you are and let and then and that'll expose the the things that you're not right so we do that through mindfulness right connection connection to the body uh slowly connecting P you remember you remember that process of reconnecting to your emotions yeah I'll tell this brief story um it was a success by the way he's very connected to his emotions now I know I love it I love that I every might start crying right now okay I okay then I'm gonna tell the story about you but I'll be very vague here I just remember you saying something to the effect of I just can't stop crying it's what's wrong with me or something and and I think I may have left or something in my chair like that's amazing this is so like you're becoming more fully human you're becoming more fully yourself you have access to the full range of emotions this is beautiful beautiful trauma and addiction work right here because trauma and addiction are very similar they rob us of our ability to connect to self and others and that's so that's where I come in with working with betrayed spouses right they're they're experiencing all of this post traumatic stress uh and and by the way huge post-traumatic stress disorder symptoms from the Betrayal alone add to that that what what happens um and and I see this recently working with some natur natural disaster um victims that when something that Earth shattering happens not only are you now dealing with that trauma but even attachment wounds and other issues from from long ago come up and mingle with it so people people tend to think we're just dealing with betrayal trauma we're just not that's very it's very rare to just be dealing with that you you get all these things that you know were either kind of resolved or kind of tucked away now they're all coming to the surface like running a motorboat across a a steel Pond all the stuff's coming up from the bottom right that was 100% my experience I I I described it as trauma debris because it was as soon as this happened all of these other things started floating around it was almost like they got mixed up and it was really like disconcerting for a little while because you know I was almost there was almost a phase where I was mixing up what was happening in my current relationship with my ex and all this kind of stuff and I was like whoa I don't want to mix these things up you know but any fear any insecurity any limiting belief I had just you know highlighted exponential when this happened and I I recall and and it took a while to get there because everything that happened with kylen probably in the first two years I always thought it was my fault like she had a cold my fault ankle hurt my fault you know and all these different things and I'll I'll I don't it was fairly recent like in the last let's say year I remember she had you know kind of an an emotional moment was sad about something and I remember she even said to me this is not you you know she actually said this is not you and it was like it was a victory I was like Hey so so yeah it was but you know certainly you go well you know is there more to that because of what happened so to your point on on trauma debris and yeah well and I think one other thing I want to say about that uh in terms of um uh you know we're treating a system here okay so a family is coming into my office either either way when I'm getting the partner or the ACT this whole system is also coming into my office and I want to always keep that in mind and one way I keep that in mind especially when working with addicts is I just constantly have to gently remind them um this is about you and this isn't about you like your partner is having uh probably feels like their mind they're losing their mind right just like every little thing can be a trigger right right that's not about you and it is about you right so the best thing and I don't I'm forgetting the book it's in now I get these jumbled up but you know you'll probably remember the book where the author talks about always being present to validate the emotions that come up in your partner yeah from that book that's it yeah and there's other steps too but validate and reinsurance I'm sure are top are are two of the the three or four things that they list and um and and here's what you don't do uh don't get super irritated by it you know be gentle I mean of course say you know you know I I need a minute let me take a break whatever you need to do to feel safe but just you're gonna have to just be really patient because you're going to be the bad person for a long time you know have to be patient with that that's trauma informed uh situation right there that's so true so true what do you see as like the pillars of the green flags of recovery in both sides oh that's good um so um I'll tell you actually you know in a lot of ways the two of you are just I don't know you've just done some things really beautifully in your journey so I in in giving these examples actually think of you too very often okay when I'm talking to clients I'm like you know I want to say just be more like Pat and kylen you know just do do what they did because you you guys do do some things really beautifully I I think uh early on to establish a way of checking in with each other is just super important so we you know we we learn fos and I try to encourage couples to lean into that I and I always encourage addicts to sort of lead that process um just because it feels right to do that um also I don't think that this this recovery journey is possible without an army of support I have had some people try to do this thing alone and I get it because of all the shame you don't want to let people in but um having a support group a 12-step group a church group some kind of people who you can be with and you can share all the dirty awful stuff that you're going through and you won't be judged but you'll hear maybe like me too or I get it like that is essential um what was the other thing I was going to mention with that um I I generally encourage even and I feel terrible encouraging this I'm not a huge journaler I Journal sporadically and spontaneously but I do think that uh journaling is a really powerful tool and the people that I see who journal on a regular basis are the ones that tend to do better because really you know if we think about that uh reconnection with self and others it that's a beautiful way to to reconnect what what am I feeling what's going on in my body right now what what are my thoughts what are my emotions just to be able to name those things is really uh really essential part of that and then I think the other part that is often neglected is doing good trauma work my favorite tool with that is is brain spotting but sometimes I'll do some EMDR as well and and there there are other modalities but but having the space for both addict and partner to be able to tell your whole story and then to do the trauma work where it needs to happen um one one thing I wanted to to share with that I just started reading reading a new book and I like I like to read books when they um validate things I've been doing without without thinking about it so this book by uh Darren Ford um who's a wonderful seasat um called Awakening from the sexually addicted mind a guide to compassionate recovery is't that nice so he's a um he's a mindfulness-based therapist but he um he put this quote in here and and I just want to read it actually to you I might read a couple things but he says even if you as a child actively looked for sex which he says kids don't don't do it is up to adults around you to explain and educate you about engaging in the behavior in a safe and healthy way your brain was not fully developed yet in fact our prefrontal cortex does not fully develop till about age 25 so there's no way you can be fully aware of the impact of your choices you are making when I get an addict in my office who says I had a perfect childhood like I have no trauma I don't even know what why people connect trauma to addiction which I hear a lot I will generally say and it's almost always true I'll say what age were you exposed to pornography and you know the age just keeps going down and down and down right now I think it's what 10 I don't know somewhere in that range sometimes it's earlier 8 nine 10 um and with high-speed internet you know kids aren't starting with pictures anymore they're starting with videos you know imagine the impact of a little child watching rape and has nobody to help interpret what what he or she is seeing yeah that's trauma significant trauma if you don't have any other trauma in your life early exposure to pornography is an assault to your Humanity right I'm so glad you said that so true I'm so glad you brought up the idea of drama work and specifically talked about that I heard someone describe it recently as um there there's a huge difference and this kind of goes into what you were just speaking into there's a huge difference from experiencing something as a child and having no explanation for it and then experiencing something and having an adult um explain it or make like put it into context or or make it make sense to you and the safety in one and the ability to process is very very different when you have that adult presence being able to communicate and explain and protect and guide um and when you are left with a tiny little child brain trying to process something that you don't understand it's so hard and it it your brain does the best it can with the information that it has which is not much at five at six at eight yeah and what's weird um just speaking from my own experience is like the older you get and the more information you gather it's it keeps trying to process and put the pieces together but by the time you become an adult then you have all of these weird connections that you know have created fears or insecurities or you know whatever in your brain and it was just trying to protect you the whole time but that's the way it did it that is so true I think others have said it better but um we some of the the worst and most intense trauma and I don't like comparing trauma to trauma but some some of the worst that I see in my office is trauma of neglect y you know what did you get and if you didn't which most of us didn't get a good education about your sexuality and what's happening in your body and what you're going to be exposed to and you know protecting you know kids from seeing those things the best we can that's profound neglect neglect and then the I don't know if it's okay to cuss so I'll try to say this without we have it listed as explicit so so a wise person said I wish I remember who it said but uh who said this but in the absence of of information our brains make up all kind of [ __ ] right and so think about all the absences of information we received or didn't receive uh as kids we carry that through as as trauma and and and particularly because uh little brains little kid brains need to protect the adults because if the adults are wrong we're screwed yeah right so the the way you protect the adults is you think oh this thing happened I feel really bad in my body I feel a lot of Shame must be because there's something wrong with me because there can't be something wrong with with Mom or Dad I think I think one of the most powerful things that you did for me is is you know I was exposed at a young age too um you much like a lot of a lot of guys but you actually reversed the and I don't know the the the therapeutic method that that you did but you created a scenario in in my mind through talk therapy where I rest rescued me I as an adult came into that situation and rescued me and that was a and you can probably describe what what yeah but that was that was amazing so you know what what a if you if you turn that on its head what you just talked about so now you you're saving yourself in in in a noble and and um Way full of integrity and and that's it's it was a really powerful powerful exercise for me to go through that I love it I love that thank you for reminding me of that beautiful scene I remember it yeah I mean I love doing inner child work it that's just a form of Parts work right so Parts work and internal family systems and all ego State therapy all those things are really big right now they've been around for a long time but but inner child work has really been around for a while and what a beautiful thing to realize that uh even though you're you know I don't know 45 years old however old you are that you uh that you're uh your little boy part or little girl part is still right there we're just like trees you know all the parts of us yeah still present and so when we're feeling scared or um well scared especially we can you know put a hand on our belly put a hand on our heart and just say oh what's up I'm right here with you I'm here to take care of you and I know you're scared it's going to be okay because you don't have to you don't have to do this now I'm I'm going to do it for you yeah it's yeah it's it's a uh really functional way to reparent yourself in a healthy way that maybe didn't happen and also I think just for everyone who may be listening going oh my parents did the best that they could absolutely and we we really like the idea of both and that you know many of us have parents that absolutely did their best with the information they had and they made mistakes or and it hurt us in some way the same as like Patrick and I tried really hard to be good parents and we 100% made mistakes you know and and we recognize that and so I think both can be true right like you can have parents that tried that that were did their best to be present that loved you and never ever talked to you about that or your parents have their own issues and maybe their own pornography issues and maybe they were your accidental exposure because you found something in the house right and so so many different ways that that that can be true in both scenarios um and yeah I love you know Parts work is so awesome and there's so so much validity and help I think to that in so many different ways and Patrick's gonna laugh because I did some first work recently and um one of my parts was like a little monster and I literally so sometimes you can you can uh in in different exercise that you do working through your emotions and Trauma and whatnot sometimes you can have little external things that you pull in to remind yourself of the internal work that you did and so I went on Amazon and I got this little um pink Monster stuffed animal thing and because my monster had been gray and then when we did this work it turned pink you know and so I got this thing I literally sleep with it and every night Patrick is like it's you and your little pink but it's my visual reminder of you know these things that I'm learning you know of you know it's really okay to show up and be myself and you know all these things that we're working on and um you know through exercises like that through pars work and and you know so like that's it's really cool it is really cool I've started using I I don't know who I think I came up with this on my own if I'm stealing it I'm sorry um but I think about a school bus you know a lot of us rode the school bus growing up and uh you know I think of all art Parts being back there on School Bus you know but I want to be driving this bus okay so like you know when they come up and like I want to drive the bus now we got to pull the bus over right I had a bus driver who would do that she'd pull over the bus she'd be like uh we're not doing this sit down you know and so getting developing that good relationship I so I love that you have that that kind of relationship I I think I remember this too when we were working together uh that I said um I think and this could be with some someone else but you were like um how do we get rid of this attic part like I just need to like kick him off the box right oh yeah yeah and I I think I remember looking at you and saying we don't yeah get rid of that part I think I think you're um I remember that your exact words were you know it was the what we were working through was actually a table and he had a seat at the table the attic had a seat at the table and you know he didn't have an oversized voice right it wasn't a but you know the adct was was a role it was a part and and you know he you could you could say he had an outsized role in my life for a while and you know he's he he was there for a reason but now he can step back and right right yeah if you're not being a uh you know if you're not being a recovering board chairman then that part will start making some noise that's right that's right yeah well I think what you guys just said is really important just for the people that are listening is so Patrick goes okay I want to get rid of this addict part I don't like this part of me all of our parts are there for our benefit they're serving something good in the system and and they may show up in ways that we don't like like anxiety or depression or addiction or things like that but they're there for a reason and if if we try to ignore them that's not going to ultimately heal but but Parts work is so interesting because it it validates the part but not in an unhealthy way so it's not saying that the way that that part is acting out is acceptable but it's asking why are you here and what are you trying to communicate like what need are you trying to fulfill because when you can and I correct me if I'm wrong but I find in addiction recovery that that's a crucial part of recovery be is to find out why that part is there because then you can answer that need in a healthy way as opposed to sort of subconsciously Act ing out that need in an unhealthy way you got it it's it's really I think the difference between white knuckling and Recovery right so white knuckling is to deny there's there's a thing and just F focus in on stopping a behavior without you know it's kind of like The Wizard of Oz pay no attention to the man behind the curtain you know over there that's you know that's white knuckling that does not end well right recovery is when you bring that addict into the room and you sit down and you say uh uh what's going on right just like you just described like you you can't run my life but I need to understand why you came about what's your purpose I know you're here to care for me I know that's why you're here yeah and I want to show you that I no longer need you I want I want you to watch here's how I'm G to demonstrate that why do you think trauma work is important for a betrayed spouse and do you think it's harder for a betrayed spouse or an addicted to to notice that trauma is part of recovery I guess that's a two-part question but it is and I'll answer it in two ways I can't tell you I think it's the rule not the exception how many times I hear Partners say either either through their spouse or to me directly uh you know like he's the person that needs help like I didn't do anything wrong why do I have to go to therapy and what I just saw by the way I totally get that I think people can feel like that's a punishment but I just often just say oh no you don't have to go to therapy like you deserve to go to therapy like you deserve to this is what this way I look at it like you've been significantly wounded right and so absolutely you deserve care right and then to just to educate a little bit about okay this this uh I'm just just use an example this um impulse you you have to just like look through his phone all the times or to check the phone records or to do all this super normal by the way very normal it's called hypervigilance right it's called the brain saying I need to know I'm safe and I'm GNA continue to be safe so I need to know all the things that's hyper visual so I just try to educate like go I go through the the the post-traumatic stress criteria and I just say look this this this is what's happening and you deserve to heal from that and healing doesn't mean you become somehow unaware or somehow naive or anything in fact it makes you more present so that you can trust your gut even more right without all these other things going on where you feel like you're losing your mind so you get your whole self back through trauma work that's that's the way I usually frame it and that usually sells pretty well right so um I would even say yeah I like to to even say instead of getting your whole self back even that um it's it because it's like we a lot of times I'll hear like I just want to be the person that I was and I don't really think that's possible it's like when you're willing to do the work you get the 2.0 version that I think that's better oh that's I'm gonna use that that's that's some good language I think it's honestly it's a way harder cell for the addicted person because again we've got that self for most I mean there area occasions when I get someone who's completely disconnected from the shame but when when someone's really connected to the shame and they're really in that state of uh I something's got to change here I can't do this um that's a really good place to be first of all um but oftentimes it's a hard cell for the addict to get them to believe that they too deserve to heal from the wounds that are that addiction right they often will say I just want to stop hurting myself and hurting people I can you just make make oh yeah yeah versus um you know getting them to see that I mean and the the compassionate lens which I admit is really hard for a lot of my adct clients to take on is that no like that addiction didn't just spring up out of nowhere like it's got I mean I use the tree right I mean we can pluck off that rotten fruit on this tree all we want but if we don't look at that root system it's going to keep producing bad fruit right so you know get really working on like you deserve and all those that you love deserve for you to heal I think it was a number of years I think it was you know I knew that one of my one of my traumas was some infidelity in earlier relationships but it took me a long time to kind of basically say hey I was betrayed too and that I mean that was a that was super recently yeah super recent even though my mind logically I I recognize it but I think it was exactly what you were saying is I I it took me a while to kind of make that connection and have compassion on myself for that you know for that piece that that had happened in my life yeah absolutely yeah Maya Angelou stated I have found that among its other benefits giving liberates the soul of The Giver tar hope is a nonprofit that is on a mission to support women experiencing and recovering from sexual betrayal trauma we do this by providing education and resources as well as connecting them with and paying for practitioners who guide and assist them through the recovery process so that they can lead happy and fulfilling lives again if you are interested in supporting this nonprofit organization here are a few ways to consider doing this number one pray that we connect with the women who need us most pray for all the women who are granted scholarships that they find true healing pray for our coaches that they have wisdom in every session please pray for me as I continue to lead in an area that is unfamiliar territory and to be honest kind of intimidates me pray for the right people to be led to Tara hope so that we can connect and grow into an organization that has an impact across the country this includes bringing on a CEO marketing specialist fundraising specialist and social media manager to name a few of the people we would love to have in our team moving forward two please consider sharing this podcast with pastors churches friends friends you know who might be interested therapists or counselors who have a heart to help others or even sharing a screenshot or audio clip on social media anyone you think that might be interested in learning that this organization exists number three please consider donating one six-month scholarship ranges from $3,000 to $3,600 and $150 would cover one session with Atara hope coach number four and finally if you are someone who is feeling C called to help us grow please reach out to us to let us know in what way you might want to participate I mentioned earlier a few areas we need support someone who has experience running nonprofits someone interested in running social media someone good at marketing Etc honestly whether you donate $5 cover us in prayer or share this podcast with one person we are so thankful for your participation the smallest action of support can have a huge ripple effect so never think that any contribution is too small we are so thankful for each of you listening to donate please go to tarah Hope alliance.org donate if you'd like to reach out to us please email info@ tarah hope alliance.org [Music] okay so one thing I I would love to kind of have you speak into uh we've talked a little bit about it I think in the conversation in some aspects but this idea that and I think this applies on both addiction and betrayal recovery because it's just speaking into the trauma work aspect of it can you maybe talk into the idea that we can't just logically work ourselves through this and I think that's why these other modalities are so important things like um things like EMDR things like brain spotting things like visualizations and inner child work and stuff like that because it actually works on the subconscious level and really helps us process things in a way that our logical brain just I feel like is impossible to fully move through some of these painful things if we just try to think it through I feel like if we could just think through it we would all be healed oh okay let me do the best I can okay so I am let me just say I am not a neuros psychologist okay there's we're learning new things every single day in this field and super exciting and I just can't keep up but what I do know is right this is not just a case of I'm just a deciding to wake up and do bad things you know or I'm just deciding to be anxious all the time about my partner's whereabouts this is not about that because you're right if we could who would decide that like who would decide that nobody right it's not a matter of choice or we would choose something different we we kind of know that anecdotally but what we know on the Neuroscience level right is all that trauma is is in the is in the subcortical brain right so from the U you know the limic system even even down into the the showing you like the viewers listeners can see but you know even down into the brain stem right it really connects to the deepest levels of trauma and so just as Bessel Vander said and body keeps the score that book that's ahead of its time you know uh good trauma work is not top down in other words it's not from the the uh neocortex or the prefrontal cortex down to the brainstem but it's bottom up right so we got to find ways interventions that allow clients to get into that deeper level so EMDR brain spotting other sematic kind of work will allow the client to sort of drop into those deeper levels and and the cool thing is when we when we drop into that healing happens really rapidly as well when we try to work on trauma as if it's sort of up here in the the front part of our brain this you know let's talk through it uh if anything it just yeah yeah you don't want to run over you don't want to verbalize and run over details over and over and over and over and over um that can be painful it can be hard it can it can dig in those neural circuits and make them deeper and I mean I Patrick has experienced that with the brain spotting I've experienced it with the subconscious reprogramming the stuff that I've done and the stuff that I do with my clients and sometimes it's just like often there are multiple layers but then sometimes you'll hit this one that's so specific and it just heals so quickly and it is it's literally lifechanging something that's impacting you a a negative belief about yourself or some of those beliefs that you listed out earlier you know and and you start to process those things and those fears and those insecurities and you literally show up differently in the world the next day yeah and you begin to have that view that no I am good I am worthy of love I it it is okay for me to use my voice and to show up in the world and to contribute and I'm valuable and worthy of doing that um it's okay for me to set boundaries right like all these things are part of recovery and so like I think that work is so so helpful and so amazing and such a critical part of the healing process and so I just think it's awesome there's so many different angles that uh can do that now you know and that it is becoming more talked about and more popular and more um utilized because it's just so impactful that's right yeah yeah we're l just healing our nervous systems right just expanding of and I will say along with that too that like you know being a human is super hard uh these days all you have to is turn on the radio and you I think it's also normal to suffer and normal to feel anxious and stressed and all these things the the LIE of addiction is that those things aren't okay so let me seek out this life that's free from all these highs and lows rather than just expanding our capacity to live in this this traumatic space called called Earth right that's so um that's such a good point it's just increasing our resiliency basically I that that's so valid especially when you're talking about trauma because what like in my experience when you're moving through or or when you're going through the trauma itself your resiliency is like zero right and so part of recovery then is building that resiliency back up so that you can navigate because triggers will happen that's part of life and someone will hurt your feelings and you know you'll make mistakes and there's no way to be a good enough person that nothing bad ever happens that's right yeah and so um being able to have that resiliency and that tolerance and that flexibility again in life I think that that's a really great point that that is a huge piece of what it means to live in recovery absolutely I think it's just listening to the two of you talk I I was was thinking about this you know as I've gone through my own recovery Journey um over the last two plus years and and I have the Good Fortune to have a job where I get to lead a lot of people and and I know that my own my my recovery work especially terminology and and actions has made its way into lead into leadership and so I I know one of the things I'm more in tune to is I allow people to express themselves in a particular way you know in a particular setting you know there's always a there's always a line right that you could go over but but um I think sometimes when I pull people in after they've been emotional about something they think I'm going to chew them out and I never chew them out I always say you know I think the question I always lead with now I didn't before is what are you afraid of let's talk about what you're afraid of and and I think sometimes that floors people they they don't know what to think but then as as we work through it we kind of do get to the root of it and then we're able to kind resolve that and then move forward and and I don't think I would have ever ever done that you know in 2020 yeah 2020 and I've been leading organizations for a long time and so it's a you know it's it's it's nice to be able to kind of I think it's as you recover and you become a healthy person it's not just about doing doing not doing the addictive behavior anymore you you do show up in a different way and I that's just one example of how I think I you know I I will second that that um he's he's the best non-therapist therapist that uh he does it to me all the time I mean he picks up on exactly how to use the language to communicate um you know to help you think through things and uh it's it really is good I'm quite impressed a lot of times I'm like oh you you you use that language stuff better than I do and you do you know I learned it from you and you Charles you know you both have been great so interesting because it's like um the just to interact with that you know and just how much he absorbs it and then immediately implements right and so like H he has really learned how to use it how to like interact with other human beings you know and how to communicate on a different level and I think that's been a huge he I think you've always been a compassionate leader but I think this has really transformed communication and the depth to which you connect to people and and interact with them for sure and you you know talking about empathy and compassion you really feel for people more and more too as you as you heal you just really feel that you know when somebody comes to you and says my my my you know my wife is really sick we think she's gonna die you know I mean it it hits you harder it hits you harder than it did before it you feel your feelings yeah yeah you really feel it yeah so you feel all your parts I feel all my parts yeah yeah you know we we've talked a little bit about this but I wanted to ask you this question you know and and and I go through this sometimes with with the groups as well is is I always will say that I had three legs to the stool of my healing and and it was one was kylen and and the great support and Grace she gave me and the boundaries she set and all of those things and the and the terms that said get your [ __ ] together you know that was all really really good for me the second was groups you know being in groups and supportive groups that had fantastic content and a plan and then the third was was therapy I I think you know and you know meeting with you on a weekly basis for a year and a half was you know I don't think I'd be where I am today if that was not part of my my healing path but as I as I as I talk to people and recommend therapy a lot of times what I'll get is is well I'm considering it or um I don't know if that would work for me um how do you handle object s to the therapeutic or the coaching route you know that that you may hear at times oh yeah so good um well well um you know first of all a good number of my clients end up in my office uh in a space where um they're about to lose their marriage right so that that tends to be what gets people through the door which I totally get right I'm hoping that that's not what stays the motiv motivation throughout right for people who really do deep recovery that doesn't that doesn't stay the the primary motivation um with that so I let let me say there there are some really good barriers that I that I do run into and one one is cost right so therapy can be uh can be pricey you know I I get that um one way around that in my practice is that I do offer groups which is they therapy groups and they are um far far less expensive and I think actually in some ways far more powerful than individual therapy and they are beautiful uh ways to do let's say para theapy if you will like the program I know you're involved with Patrick I is is really deep and therapeutic what happens with that program and I do usually give this caveat if you do this program uh stuff's going to come up Y and you're probably going to need someone to help process that at at a deeper level because this is not a therapist run program that's right and and so I would I would you say like I wouldn't do it unless you're gonna have a therapist because I mean that stuff can be overwhelming it was for me when I first started my work I started in sort of a a par therapeutic environment and all this stuff came came up and I don't know what I would have done without a therapist so uh I just I usually tell people that this addicted part of you uh is probably there's there's a lot under the surface that you don't know about and it's going to start coming out and you're going to need some good therapeutic support so let's figure that out like there there are ways to figure this thing out I'll help you figure it out you know I I've done some sliding scale with people just just to help in in that space um but I I just want to say I mean money is one of those things I I totally get that there are a lot of people who can't afford therapy and I I do feel for that that one thing I I I'm going to be honest with you I don't think think I get a lot of other excuses uh because people are usually so scared of losing their family losing their spouse they're highly motivated yeah you are I'm sorry go ahead I well I'll just throw my own example in here because when um years ago it's like back in 2015 or 2016 um when we looked for a therapist and we I I can't remember how we did it we like looked through like our insurance or whatever but I had some negative experiences and particularly with what I was going through at the time and so when when betrayal happened I was very resistant for about a month or so because I was really scared of being in such a traumatic State and you know it's very vulnerable you have to share your story with somebody and you have to trust that person and they have to know what they're talking about because if they don't and if they don't understand what you're going through or you know whatever it could be a bad experience and then you've wasted time or money or both yeah and I remember years ago before this that I came home after a session and I just like collapsed into him crying I was like that was not helpful for me at all it was not helpful and it was scary to me but then this experience was so much different and it was so helpful and so healing and um you know it just it was transformative really so I I love whenever possible you know if you can get like personal referrals or you know or even like you know if if you know doing something like tar Hope Alliance right like we've really made if you if you Vibe with us on the podcast or our personalities or what we believe in we've been very very careful to choose people that we do trust like you um that are highly qualified and so it is going to be a very safe experience right so I would just throw that in there too that it is um I think there have been situations maybe where people have had bad experiences and it's scary yeah yeah and I want to Echo that and say some of the horror stories I've heard in space are they're just really bad I and and a lot of times they're super abusive toward women when I hear therapist say even female therapist saying you know well if you were more this or more that or be more sexual I'm like blaming a bet a betrayed spouse like horrible stuff or or for for men that I work with uh you know having uh therapist say this isn't a problem you know this is all men do this you know I mean like there are legitimate horror stories out there and what I want to say benefit of the doubt is like okay I mean I've been through a lot of training to not show up that way as a seat and maybe they just have it but I still think how awful is that like how how could you could trauma and addiction walk into your office and you be that like blaming and dismissive so maybe there's part of that too kylen people have those stories and they tell those stories and Families tell those stories and you're oh by the way the church is telling those same narratives right and so true stop everyone you know I you know I think I and and I've I used this analogy with with somebody because they had said they had had a bad therapeutic experience and it was like it was like well you know you run into people in your life that you jive with and sometimes you don't and so um don't be you know don't judge the entire therapeutic profession by one therapist um you know there are safe therapists out there I mean you and I you and I jbed right away we you know we connected we were able to and you're very safe as well but you know I've encouraged folks that like hey if you had a bad experience you reconsider you know let you get back out there again because you know not every not every person is the same not every automobile is the same you know sometimes you driving a bad automobile you you don't swear off driving for the rest of your life you know so you know it's it it you know it's it's important to get back out there again and because there are it's it's an Avenue to healing well and and I think one of the things I want to add to what you're saying there is uh neither sex addiction nor betrayal trauma are in that big lovely book called the DSM right uh and so uh unfortunately unfortunately a lot of our field is driven by insurance companies uh telling therapists how they can charge and Bill and all this and so that's a part of it as well right so when we have therapists who are you know trained in in our institutions to think like if it ain't in the DSM it don't don't exist I want to say that that's part of the systemic issue that that needs to change you know and and you know there needs to be more of me out there I mean you know there are like two SE sets in this state and area yeah it too yeah it's a much bigger problem much yeah it is yeah I mean I hear that all the time when people reach out you know across the country and then they go I don't have you know that that in my area or I don't have this in my area or they're you know they're aren't groups or you know this and that and so so we'll actually nicely tie that up with a bow with that's one of the reasons that we decided to do recovery coaches through Tara Hope is because they can connect virtually and and work in that way and um and you had touched on that Financial aspect as well and that's one of the reasons that you know we set up the nonprofit is so that we can help the Betrayed partners that need that empathy that wisdom um those resources that guidance from Safe People um that are highly highly qualified like you and so we're so thankful that you are one of the recovery coaches and that you are um on the podcast today and thank you so much just for I mean just again not to you know say it too much but everything that you've done in our life we just really do appreciate it you've made such an impact and so um we're just thankful that you're here and and and on the episode today and just thanks for your time and thank you both by the way for your generosity you not only are you continuing to recover and heal but just how generous you are with your time and your resources is super incredible and I'm I'm very grateful for both of you thank you so much for listening if you found this podcast interesting or helpful it would mean so much if you leave a five-star review or post a screenshot and share on social media we are on a mission to share the message of recovery and you can help get the word out if you know a friend who could use this podcast please share it [Music] [Applause] [Music]