now it is time for the last word with Lawrence odonnell good evening my friend good evening Alex and you know what I was wondering last night I was wondering I wonder what Mary Trump thinks about what her uncle was experiencing last night and luckily Mary Trump is going to join us and tell us exactly that I mean the personal psychology of what the country witnessed last night is really something extraordinary a deep dark dive into one man's broken mind is what I'd like to call it but I'm eager to hear how Mary trump diagnoses it that that's what we're in for thank you Alex have a great show thank you and so the three full years of stupid press coverage of kamla Harris has finally come to an end after three years of Washington reporters churning over the question of what's wrong with kamla Harris last night they finally got their answer nothing nothing's wrong with KLA Harris nothing ever was they didn't think she could do this here's just a sample of headlines covering the vice presidency of con Harris the BBC con Harris one year where did it go wrong for her The Washington Post AA Harris staff Exodus reignites questions about her leadership style and her future Ambitions the New York Times kamla Harris is trying to Define her vice presidency even her allies are tired of waiting this headline for Politico not a healthy environment KL Harris office rif with descent and the biggest longest article of all from the Atlantic the kamla Harris problem few people seem to think she's ready to be president why why maybe because the Washington news media had been doing everything it possibly could to deliver the message that kamla Harris was not res ready for the presidency for three full years if you spent one minute reading any of those articles you wasted that minute and if you were forced professionally to spend more than a minute as I was you learned nothing about the real kamla Harris which is the whole point of those articles the conceit of that kind of Journalism is that the reporter can get the inside story about who kamla Harris really is how she really operates and how we we should value her as a political player these articles are supposed to tell you whether she can someday do what we all saw her do last night and none of those articles predicted this program has been covering kamla Harris longer than all of the news organizations whose headlines we just read she first appeared on this program when she was the district attorney of San Francisco and she last appeared on this program in December when a dump Harris movement was brewing at that time there were some who thought the way to deal with Joe Biden's age in the re-election campaign was to get a different vice presidential candidate who the country was able to see as a strong potential president because obviously according to the pushes of this Theory no one could ever see kamla Harris that way and as I've said repeatedly on this program I saw KLA Harris as a potential presidential candidate and a potential president the day I met her in a small group meeting in Los Angeles in 2009 it was that obvious then viewers of this program have repeatedly had the opportunity to see kamla Harris that way as a potential president and I would hope that faithful viewers of this program were not at all surprised by what they saw on the debate stage last night vice president Harris being the same person she's always been easily crushing these 78-year-old convicted felon standing across the room from her afraid to ever even look at her both of those candidates on the debate stage last night were exactly who they have always been in December on this program Vice pres the vice president offered us a preview of some of what we heard last night I asked vice president then what she thought about Donald Trump saying that immigrants like her parents poisoned the blood of our country I was raised as you know a child of parents were active in the civil rights movement and I was raised knowing that there will be some people who will use their voice in a way that is meant to dehumanize um meant to suggest that the vast majority of us don't have anything in common when in fact the vast majority of us have more in common than what separates us and I would interpreted I think then as I do now which is is it is language that is meant to divide us um it is language that I think people have rightly found similar to the language of Hitler and I think it's just critically important that we remind each other including our children that the true measure of the strength of a leader is based not on who they beat down but who they lift up and um sadly I think that there's something perverse that has happened in our country over the last many years which is to suggest that strength looks like a bully when in fact the the real character of a leader is someone who has empathy who has some level of concern and care for the suffering of of other people and then does something to alleviate that suffering one important Democrat told me that that night in that interview on this program was the first time that he could really see kamla Harris as a president here's some of what the vice president said in that interview about reproductive Freedom some of which you heard her say last night this is about real people every day suffering and many of them suffering silently we just saw the the the young woman K Cox and what happened to her I I've you know you're on at 10:00 at night so I'm going to assume that adults are watching Lawrence and I'm just we have to be real on this in our country right now there are women having miscarriages and toilets there are women who cannot afford to go to a state that will allow them access to the health care they need who are suffering there's only one state in the South and that's Virginia that still has retained a law that allows a woman to make decisions about her own body and so this is an issue that yes I do believe will be resolved in November of next year because I do know that the American people fight for freedom and believe in the woman's right to make decisions about her own body they were writing the what's wrong with kamla Harris artic articles then then when she was delivering interviews like that on this program she was the same person the same person you saw last night that's the same person that I first heard speak in 2009 and the same person on that debate stage last night nothing changed but what we all saw on the debate stage last night was a big surprise to all those reporters and editors who've been churning out all of those articles about kamla Harris for the last three years years a big surprise to most of the Washington press Corps who could not clearly see the person who was right in front of them for those three years here's another part and I'm showing you this only because of how important it is the the way the vice president's been covered the last three years why it feels like a surprise to so many people that she was so strong last night and here's another part of Vice President Harris's role in the world that was complet completely ignored by most of those articles that turned out to be so wrong about kamla [Music] Harris welcome you to M Zambia your Excellency the vice president of the United States of America Madame Kamala Harris please feel at home young leader are part of what I dream about make me so confident in the future we love from the moment that I saw that video I've been waiting to ask you what did that moment feel like it was pure joy you know it's um we all hope in our lives that we can have an impact in a way that hopefully inspires or gives people a sense of confidence in what is possible for themselves and then who they love in their community and um it was very special Lawrence it was very special and thanks for sharing that clip I I hadn't seen that um it was very special and you know you've heard me say many times you know my mother would say to me K you may be the first to do many things make sure you're not the last and to to have an and I have been fortunate and blessed to during the course of being vice president have many situations where it becomes clear to me that there are you know people of every Age and and gender by the way who see something about being the first that lets them know they don't need to be um limited by other people's limited um understanding of who can do what and I think that's important and it relates to all people and um and so thank you for sharing that with me thank you that should not have been the first time the vice president was seeing that video it should have been everywhere I had shown that video on this program nine months before that but I didn't see it anywhere else because the political press wasn't really trying to report on what KLA Harris was really doing as vice president they were simply trying to collect gossip and sell it to you as wisdom and insight about who KLA Harris really is and it was worth with the right-wing media of course on Fox a venomous Republican senator from Louisiana said last year quote the vice president needs to work on being a little more articulate English is not her first second third or even fourth language the movement to replace Joe Biden on the ticket was also always a movement to replace kamla Harris on the ticket one of the earliest and certainly the wisest leaders of the replace Biden movement was Ezra Klein who in February in the New York Times wrote quote everybody I have talked to talked to about this literally everybody has brought up the same fear call it the Kamala Harris problem in theory she should be the favorite but she pulls slightly worse than Biden Democrats don't trust that she would be a stronger candidate but they worry that if she wasn't chosen it would rip the party apart as rein suggested a large group of democrats should compete for the nomination if President Biden stepped down and K Harris in Ezra's judgment probably wouldn't win that nomination Ezra Klein was of course smart enough to admit that the contested convention scenario could go very badly my only contribution to the replace Biden scenarios when they were being discussed was that the only possible alternative nominee to Joe Biden as I saw it was kamla Harris and that's the way it turned out when Joe Biden dropped out and 27 minutes later endorsed Harris and within hours K Harris had enough delegates to secure the nomination so they were wrong about KLA Harris's abilities they were wrong about what would happen if Joe Biden dropped out of the race and they were very very wrong about what would happen with KL Harris on the presidential debate stage this year Donald Trump was no doubt one of the big Believers of that large pile of journalistic trash that was churned out about vice president and so I think along with most of the Washington press Corps we can count Donald Trump as one of the people who was very surprised by what happened on that debate stage last night for every presidential candidate prior to Donald Trump the debate stage has revealed next to nothing about how they would actually handle the job of the presidency the debates definitely reveal some policy differences but they usually don't reveal much more about the person every debate Donald Trump has ever participated in has revealed that he does not know how to be president of the United States and last night's debate thanks to kamla Harris revealed that he does not know how to be a human being beginning with the entrance of the candidates Donald Trump obviously entered with a plan to Not Shake Hands vice president Harris obviously entered with the opposite plan and she took full charge of that moment very much against Donald Trump's will so let's now welcome the candidates to the stage vice president KLA Harris and president Donald Trump KLA Harris Let's Have a good debate see you have fun thank you you welcome to you both Trump ERS you see there timidly and slowly on the left side of your screen thinking that maybe slowing his walk down would somehow give him a later cooler entrance but kamla Harris 20 years younger strides in purposefully straight for Donald Trump and instantaneously establishes domination over him we're going to do this my way is the subtext of what she is saying to Donald Trump with that outstretched and and then for 90 minutes she spoke directly to the American people sometimes directly to Donald Trump to her right and when she wasn't speaking she was always turning and listening to Donald Trump the way a human being would and to in her way emphasize by her listening the absurdity of what Donald Trump was saying with her human reactions to what she was hearing Donald Trump chose two modes at the podium the angry and bitter 78y old man while he was speaking and the mugshot face while he was listening he did not once dare to turn and look at the vice president of the United States when she was speaking just mugshot face he wasn't looking at the moderators either he wasn't looking at us through the camera he was looking at nothing just lost in the wilderness of his own confusion of what was happening to him and what was happening to him was that he was being beaten much worse than any losing candidate in any presidential debate in history what you saw in kamla Harris was simply the most overwhelmingly strong performance by a presidential debater in the history of presidential debates which began only 1960 so it isn't very long you can watch every one of them online most presidents never debated anyone I believe John kry I'm sure John krey won all three of his debates against George W bush I'd never seen a better presidential debater but John krey didn't win those debates by some giant margin the giant margin conell Harris won by last night there are no great memorable lines from the winners of presidential debates until now I have talked with military leaders some of whom worked with you and they say you're a disgrace young people might not know that prior to the political career of Donald Trump no candidate in a presidential debate ever dreamed of saying that the other candidate is a disgrace that could not happen until Donald Trump brought his life of crime and disgrace to the presidential debate stage last night Donald Trump lied to the voters about the voters when he claimed that everyone wanted Ro versus way to be overt overturned Donald Trump claimed that everyone Democrats Republicans Independents everyone watching the debate wanted roow versus Wade to be overturned even though an overwhelming majority of the American people did not want Ro versus Wade to be overturned and so after Donald Trump lied to the American people about the American people and what they wanted vice president Harris said this Donald Trump certainly should not be telling a woman what to do with her body I have talked with women around our country you want to talk about this is what people wanted pregnant women who want to carry a pregnancy to term suffering from a miscarriage being denied care in an emergency room because the healthc care providers are afraid they might go to jail and she's bleeding out in a car in the parking lot she didn't want that her husband didn't want that a 12 or 13year old survivor of incest being forced to carry a pregnancy to term they don't want that and I pledge to you when Congress passes a bill to put back in place the protections of roie Wade as president of the United States I will proudly sign it into law the same person that was the same person I first heard speak in 2009 that was the same person you heard on this program in in December there was nothing surprising about any of that except to the people who were never paying attention to the real kamla Harris Donald Trump's response to that was of course a lie they have abortion in the ninth month they even have and you can look at the governor of West Virginia the previous governor of West Virginia not the current governor is doing an excellent job but the governor before he said the baby will be born and we will decide what to do with the baby in other words we'll execute the baby there is no state in this country where it is legal to kill a baby after it's born Madam vice president want to get your response to president Trump imagine in that moment the Panic workings of the Mind of that raging racist being corrected on that debate stage last night by two black women the racism that Donald Trump grew up with told him promised him that that kind of thing could never happen to him Donald Trump's niece Mary Trump will join us next to consider what her uncle experienced in being crushed by vice president kamla Harris for an hour and a half on television scene around the world clinical psychologist Mary Trump joins us [Music] next I'll tell you something he's going to talk about immigration a lot tonight even when it's not the subject that is being raised and I'm going to actually do something really unusual and I'm going to invite you to attend one of Donald Trump's rallies because it's a really interesting thing to watch you will see during the course of his rallies he talks about fictional characters like Hannibal Lecter he will talk about windmills cause cancer and what you will also notice is that people start leaving his rallies early out of exhaustion and boredom and I will tell you the one thing you will not hear him talk about is you you will not hear him talk about your needs your dreams and your need and your desires and I'll tell you I believe you deserve a president who actually puts you first and I pledge to you that I will let me respond this to the rallies she said people start leaving people don't go to her rallies there's no reason to go and the people that do go she's busting them in and paying them to be there and then showing them in a different light so she can't talk about that people don't leave my rallies we have the biggest rallies the most incredible rallies in the history of politics joining us now is clinical psychologist Mary Trump Donald Trump's niece she's the author of the new book who could ever love you a family Memoir uh Mary I'd like to talked about the book in a moment but I want to begin with what we just heard of course he has to lie about you know the Harris campaign pays for crowds which is exactly how Donald got his very first audience when he came down the escalator at at Trump Tower he's the only one who's done that in politics uh but your reaction to I just want to give it to you it's yours whatever you want to tell us about what you think is important about the moments your uncle suffered through last night well first of all Lawrence it's it's great to be with you when we have something good to talk about for a change uh the debate last night was so affirming for those of us who've been in this fight uh for years now and I think when vice president Harris made those comments about Donald's rallies she inflicted a narcissistic wound from which he will never recover it literally is going to determine how he handles the next 50 days or however many days there are until the election he's going to be reacting to that from now on it it was a beautiful thing to see uh vice president Harris threaded so many needles with Brilliance with surgical Precision she went after his weaknesses as a leader his failures as a human being and probably next to the rally sizes the the most important thing to him his complete failures as a trust fund baby and she was absolutely accurate Donald didn't inherit $413 million he was gifted and quote unquote loaned that much money while my grandfather was still alive and then on top of that he inherited another 250 million dollars so she had his number and the way he reacted to her the way he was incapable of looking at her uh was an perfect indication of the turmoil he was experiencing and the humiliation he will never get over yeah okay take me into that because I was I was watching his choice um and with him I I don't know if it's a choice I don't even know if he's conscious enough to make a choice uh but anyone else in that situation knows hey the camera's going to be on me all the time when I'm speaking and there's going to be the reaction shot whenever I'm not speaking I've got to think about my reaction shot and what I'm giving them on that uh C Harris was car Harris was just human she did what a human would do the other person speaks she turns and listens to the other person speaking he gave us the mugshot face like it was frozen on on there the entire time was he even aware of what he was doing or did he think yes this is this is what I need to show them in this moment well first of all I think referring to it as mugshot face is perfect uh and secondly Donald has no self-awareness he's only able to think about what he thinks he's projecting so he thought look at him there he's right now thinking he looks tough he looks mean he looks like a killer uh and that is not at all how he comes across he looks weak he looks afraid and as you mentioned he could not even face her that's how she dominated him from the moment she crossed the stage and forced him to shake her hand tell me about the handshake cuz I'm watching his movements and I'm I'm watching him trying to you can see he's trying to get away is there some way he can get away uh what's he thinking there well I think he was trying to set the tone and yeah he's shuffling in thinking if I take long enough to get to the lecturn she'll just make the same move and go to her lecturn he was not anticipating that she would walk over to him no way and I have to be completely honest with you part of me did not want her to shake his hand not for tactical reasons I think it was a brilliant tactical move because again it set the tone on her terms I just didn't want her to have to touch him yeah I I mean I was thinking the same thing I was I there was a lot of suspense for me about would she shake his hand and when I and I saw it either way uh but then when I saw her choice when okay she's way smarter than I am that's exactly what to do and I would not have suggested it neither would I because again I I have been torn about this since before the debate with President Biden not because I'm I was preent at all um I didn't want President Biden to debate Donald not because I knew it was going to happen but because I didn't think Donald Trump deserved to be on that debate stage with the president of the United States he is as K La Harris said a disgrace he does not deserve to have any respect afforded to him I felt this same way last night however she didn't have a choice there was way too much upside for her we know what Donald Trump's ceiling is we do not know what uh vice president Harris's ceiling is and she showed us last night that it's much much higher than anybody well not anybody you knew this I knew this a few other people knew this but a lot of people did not know just how high that ceiling probably is so uh KL Harris obviously reached into your professional realm psychology with some of the choices she made there talking about his crowd size which we know what that is with him that's everything with him uh how how would you grade KL Harris on on how she used psychological Tools in that debate A+ I seriously I I listened to every word I've since rewatched many of the clips I'm not saying saying this as a partisan I'm saying this as somebody who understands Donald Trump in a fairly deep way and is somebody who knows what makes him tick and the reason I think the debate was so successful was yes because she dominated him in a way nobody else actually has been in a position to she took full advantage of that it needed to be a situation that he couldn't control it needed to be in a context that kind of hemmed him in and again I cannot think of anybody who would be able to do a better job than she did but she also created the kind of contrast you were speaking to earlier she came across not just as brilliant knowledgeable and uh completely capable of taking over on day one she came across as an empathetic kind human being who listens the kind of leader most of us have been craving for the last nine years and she showed Donald Trump to be a broken human being well he is human uh but just not a successful one think about it this way for his entire life Donald Trump has existed on a very narrow band of the Continuum of human motion he's trapped in grievance rage and fear humiliation and for almost 9 years he's forced most of us to exist there with him she opened the door to the dungeon and showed us that we can exist in the sunshine again and that was one of the most powerful things I've ever experience just brilliantly put uh as only you could uh Mary Trump I am so sorry we've we've jammed ourselves out of time here I wanted to talk about your new book uh who could ever love you this is your second volume now about growing up Trump uh and what we might learn about uh the former president in this book uh please come back and we'll discuss the book at another moment we ju we're just out of time for tonight thank you so much Lawrence thank you very much for joining us tonight and when we come back I have a feeling that our next guest was also not surprised by what she saw her friend kamla Harris do on that debate stage last night Marilyn Senate candidate Angela also Brooks will join us next [Music] or was ch for for or Allah [Music] to dist driveram Hotel number Allah Allah har m say G