look I've been twice poisoned by the FSB to near death for my position work I've received a 25e sentence in prison essentially a life sentence in hard security prison in Siberia uh you know safety is not a word that comes into the vocabulary of somebody who is in opposition to Putin's regime in Russia we know all the [Music] risks you're obviously free you're released from a terrible ordeal which would have crushed many people but how happy are you to be outside of Russia abroad in relative safety relative safety in Europe and how does that affect your future campaigning well first of all it's it's an honor and a pleasure to be here at the AFB headquarters uh you're asking how I how I'm feeling I'm feeling completely surreal that's the honest response uh it's as if I've been watching some kind of a film for the past several weeks since this Exchange happen it's a very good film uh but it still feels as if I'm a spectator looking at it from the outside because up until a few weeks ago I was absolutely certain that I was going to die in that siberian prison and everything that's happened uh with this exchange feels like a miracle and it is a miracle but it is in many ways uh a man-made miracle that was possible by the concerted efforts of so many good people in Democratic countries who never stopped talking about political prisoners who never stopped advocating for political prisoners who made sure that the subject of political prisoners in Russia never left the public discussion uh and this is the main reason that I'm sitting here and speaking with you as opposed to still being back in my 2x3 met cell in Maximum Security Prison in in Omsk you ask me if I feel happy to be outside of Russia no I don't because Russia is my home and I'm a Russian politician this always been a question of principle for me to be in Russia because I feel that as a politician if I'm calling on my fellow citizens to stand up and resist this dictatorship I cannot do it if I'm sitting somewhere in farway safety and that's been a question of principle for me that's been a question of principle for so many other leaders of the Russian opposition including many of us who are on not plane headed for anchor on the 1st of August nobody's ever asked that consent I think it's important to state um I've been asked to sign a request for pardon address to Vladimir Putin I refuse to do so uh nobody asked my consent if I wanted to to leave Russia in fact I don't even have a passport they they just HED us on a plane like cattle and threw us out of Russia obviously I'm very happy to be out of prison uh and um I feel so profoundly grateful no words can express that to everybody who never stop advocating for us and speak speaking on our behalf and ultimately it was you know so many good people who through their efforts over these past years made this exchange possible but uh I have absolutely no doubt that I will return to Russia because not only is the Putin regime not forever uh but I think as a historian more than a politician that it's going to be over in a very foreseeable future and we're going to have a mammoth task ahead of us of rebuilding our country from the ruins that the Putin regime is going to leave in uh in terms of the destroyed institutions a destroyed economy a destroyed reputation and destroyed links with International Community with the Civilized world we will need to rebuild all of that once this regime is is gone and I view it as one of the most important tasks not only for me personally but it's one of the most important tasks for the opposition movement for the pro-democracy movement in Russia as a whole to be preparing for that future moment of transition because uh as a historian I can tell you that as a historian I can tell you that the way major political changes usually happen in Russia it is like this they come suddenly unexpectedly and nobody's ever prepared for them it's that moment where where actually uh this uninformed men came to your cell took you out uh and ask you to write a statement uh asking for Vladimir Putin's pardon and acknowledging your guilt this was the beginning of the process of your release which you didn't know can you tell the whole sequence and what was your reaction at and why you ended up what you ended up writing in reality sure so this was uh Tuesday the 23rd of July uh it was the first episode of The Saga that I now know led to the prison exchange but at the time I had absolutely no idea what was happening it was a very bizarre incident I was sitting in my cell alone as always uh when suddenly two prison officers in uniforms came into my cell uh and escort me out somewhere so they brought me into this prison office there's a desk a chair a big portrait of Vladimir Putin on the wall and on a desk uh there was a blank sheet of paper a pen and some sort of a pre-printed template next to it and so they said okay sit down and please write what's written there in your own hand so I sit down I look at the template and it is a request for pardon addressed to Vladimir Putin in which I was supposed to admit my guilt of all the quote unquote crimes that I've been committed uh convicted for uh I was supposed to express remorse for what I'd done uh and ask that Mr Putin please pardon me first I thought it was a joke when I read the paper I just sort of laughed at them and said you know what is this but they didn't seem to be in the mood for laughing generally you know most people in Russian prison system don't have a very good sense of humor so I thought it wasn't a joke and then I said what you really expect me to write this they said yes please go and write it I say I'm never going to write anything like this and then they said why not so I said well first because I do not consider Vladimir Putin to be a legitimate President of Russia I consider him to be a usurper a dictator and a murderer who is personally responsible for the death of Boris nof who is personally responsible for the death of Alexa Nali who is personally responsible for the deaths of thousands and thousands of civilians including children in Ukraine and I'm certainly not going to admit any guilt because I'm not guilty of anything and and the real criminals are those who are waging this war in Ukraine not those of us who are speaking out against it uh the an officer visibly wasn't pleased with what I said and he said uh will you put all this in writing and I said yes this I'm very happy to put in writing so I put all this on paper also added that I very much hope to live to see the day when Vladimir Putin is put on trial for all of his crimes uh signed it dated it and handed it to to the prison officer I hope they kept that piece of paper somewh V I think youa told um time that all all the former prisoners suffer from some sort of pt ISD um would you would you tell us a little bit about this what's how how how you feeling right now are you suffering from any sort of trauma and how are you feeling do you have enough energy to continue the fight well you know something like this doesn't go without consequences I was in prison in Turtle for 2 years and 3 months but for 11 months straight out of that time I was in solitary confinement uh according to international law according to the United PA's minimal standard rules on the treatment of prisoners solitary confinement for more than 15 days is officially considered to be a form of torture degrading or inhumane treatment I was in solry confinement for 11 months straight without stop without pause and I have to say it really gets to you psychologically when every day you sit in a small cell 2 m by 3 confined space one small metal board window under the ceiling your bunk uh is attached to the wall at 5:00 a.m. with a wakeup call and then you can't take it back down again until 9:00 p.m. with the lights out so all you can do the whole day is just either walk in a small circle in this in this tiny cell or maybe sit at this really small uncomfortable stool that's sticking out of the wall but can't really sit on it for long you're only allowed to read and write for 90 minutes a day so they give you uh you know pen and paper then they take it away again you have nothing to do you have no one to speak to you have nowhere to go and this is how you live day after day week after week month after month I was not allowed to uh speak with my wife or my children on the phone I was not allowed to go to church and when people um think the word uh when people hear the word torture they usually think of physical torture cuz that's the first thing that comes to mind but torture can be moral and psychological and mental and and that could be even harder than than anything that's physical I mean that's the reason for the UN rules because people know this and and so needless to say it is not very easy for a human being to uh well let me put it bluntly you just stay sane in those circumstances it it takes sort of a lot of internal strength it also takes a lot of moral support from the outside and one of the things that really helped me survive in there were the many many letters that I received both from from across Russia but also from across the world and so I always urge people please find time to write to political prisoners it may not seem like a big thing from the outside but only someone who's being in that situation can appreciate how much hope and how much light and how much warmth there is in that little sheet of paper that the uh that the prison guard hands you through the through the feeding slot in the cell door uh and as I mentioned at the start of our conversation everything that's happened to me over the past several weeks feels completely and utterly surreal because I was certain that I was never getting out of there I was certain that I was going to die in that siberian prison and uh it is of course going to be a process to to transition back into normal life to transition back into normal work first of all and most importantly to to reconnect with with my family with my wife and children with whom I was not even allowed to speak on the phone throughout my time in prison and it's going to be a process of transition for for the whole family uh but we are fortunate to have the support of so many friends and so many good people and I am just so for and have been throughout all this ordeal to have the love and the support and solidarity of of my wife and my children and my whole family so uh whatever the difficulties I have no doubt that we'll be able to uh overcome everything and and and and uh and get back to to to normal life I would like to ask you about na do you think he was killed and what you you what what did you think when you learned of of his passing I don't think he was killed I know he was killed Alexi Nan was murdered on the orders of Vladimir Putin there's no other way of thinking about this uh as you know uh Putin's Security Services tried to kill him already by poisoning in 2020 these were members of the same FSB Squad that poisoned me twice in 2015 and 2017 these are members of the same FSB Squad who tailed Boris nsof in the in the weeks before his assassination 2015 um there is this special regiment a special unit within the Russian FSB the Federal Security Service that is tasked with physically eliminating political opponents of Vladimir Putin's regime a death squad if you will that officially operates within the Russian government security structures uh I have absolutely no doubt that it was they who finished the job that they didn't finish back in 2020 but they finished it this year in February of 2024 I heard the news on on the radio in uh on the wall of my prison C this was the first and the last time throughout my time in prison when I heard the name of Alexa Nali on the radio because of course needless to say uh in the in the official media it's not allowed to talk about opposition leaders and and and anybody who who stands up against Putin and so the only time I heard Alexi Nani's name was when they announced his death this was the evening of the 16th of February it was a Friday I will never forget that date and it was a very quick announcement just a name and I heard the name sort of jumped to to to listen to this to this radio to be closer to it and then they they said that you know lost Consciousness after returning from from his prison walk and the death occurred at such and such time and this was I don't think I have the words to to to to describe to describe the feeling this was also Friday evening then came the weekend with no visits from lawyers with no letters total vacuum uh I was always in solitude confinement and uh after months and months in solit confinement your mind starts playing tricks in you so actually at some point during the weekend I thought that maybe I'd made all all of this up that that alexe wasn't killed that I just sort of imagined because the radio said nothing after that just that one mention and nothing else and of course the prison guards didn't talk to me and only when my lawyer came the the following week um he confirmed that unfortunately I hadn't made that up look I think it's important to remember for people especially for those people who are still considering returning to real politic who are still considering to going back to doing business as usual with Vladimir Putin I think it's important for all these people to remember that the regime that we have in power in Russia today and had for the past 25 years is not just an authoritarian regime it's not just a dictatorial regime it is a regime of murderers Vladimir Putin murders his political opponents he has ordered Boris nof to be murdered he's ordered Alexi Nani to to be murdered there is a special death squad that operates within Putin Security Service D FSB tasked with eliminating political opponents of the Putin regime so any Western leader who shakes hands with Vladimir Putin is shaking hands with a murderer I hope the people remember that is this true that you are going to um be meeting with M later tonight later today and if so what are you going what are you planning to tell him so my first message to president maon will be please don't forget Russian political prisoners please continue to speak out for them please continue to advocate for them please continue to do everything that you can to get them to Freedom uh France already has uh an honorable tradition in this regard a few years ago uh Al sof Ukrainian film director was saved from Russian prison in a very large part thanks to the efforts of the French government and president M personally uh so he knows this issue he has he has already been involved in this and uh my message to him will be to please continue because having experienced it personally I mean I've always advocated for political prisoners this has always been a major issue for me but now it's really personal because I know what it feels like to wake up every single morning in that 2x3 meter cell to attach your bunk to your wall at 5:00 a.m. to just spend your whole day pointless empty you know just walking around in a circle not able to speak to anyone not able to go anywhere not able to do anything and the system around you is designed to make you lose hope to uh to make you desperate to make you think that everybody's forgotten and nobody cares and it is so so important that the leaders of democratic nations send that message loud and clear the political prisoners in Russia are not forgotten that that the Free World will do anything uh and everything in its power to secure their freedom so this will be the first message and the second message uh that I will that I want to deliver to to the president uh tonight is um I want to thank him for continuing to maintain this dialogue with Russia despite everything that has been happening over the past years because despite what the cremon propaganda is trying to convey Russia is not limited to the Putin regime there are so many people in Russia inside Russia who are against this war who are against this dictatorship who want Russia to become a normal modern democratic European country these people are the future of Russia that is the Russia of tomorrow and if we still believe in a Europe whole free and at peace with itself and I certainly do the only way that's ever going to be possible over the long term is with a free peaceful and Democratic Russia as a part of that big Europe if you had a chance Vladimir would you meet with the president of Ukraine Vladimir zansi absolutely and I have many friends uh not only in Ukraine generally that goes without saying but also in the Ukrainian political circles and I've been in touch with many of them uh since since my release I've seen some of them since my release that I haven't been to Ukraine itself but at international events and um absolutely I'd be I'd be honored to to go to Ukraine the last time I was in Kiev was was 5 years ago uh when I was there to speak at the official opening of Boris nof Square in front of the Russian Embassy in Kiev uh there are now many cities around the world including Washington including London including Prague including Kiev and and several others that have officially commemorated Boris now Boris n the leader of Russia's Pro democracy uh let me restart the phrase there are now several cities around the world including Washington including London including Prague including Kiev and and several others that have officially commemorated Boris nof the leader of Russia's pro-democracy opposition who was assassinated on Vladimir Putin's orders in front of the Kremlin in February of 2015 with Street designations Square designations Park designations Kev is one of those cities and such gestures frankly sent a very important message of solidarity uh with all of those people Russia who believe in a different future for our country a future that Boris NV stood for so that was the last time I was uh in KF for for that unveiling deeply grateful to them for for making it happen and I'd be very happy to to be back yeah there's there's um another position politician who lives in Paris genov and he recently said that there's a big problem that uh the representatives of the Russian opposition are not Building Bridges with Ukraine would you agree with that and if not why or if yes why okay well I can speak for myself most of the past two and a half years I spent in prison in Soldier confinement in Siberia so it's a little bit difficult for me to speak about others or what others have been doing because I had absolutely no idea what was happening I can speak about myself ukrainians were my neighbors when I was sitting in that solitary confinement in a strict regime prison in in Siberia uh my neighbors were Ukrainian officers obviously in other cells we were all having soldiery confinement but I knew from the registry of prisoners that I saw in the prison office I knew that you know in in cells around me where captive Ukrainian officers who are being held by uh by the Putin regime as I'm guessing as hostages for future exchanges uh I'm not going to say their names because I'm hoping that some of them will make it to those exchanges and I'll I'll be carefully monitoring uh monitoring these lists and you know what I have to say it's a special kind of solidarity when you've been in prison with someone uh adir bukovski prominent Soviet are dissident who spent many many years in the in the gulag and then was himself exchanged and and freed in the 1970s he wrote in his book that you know people who have been to prison together even if they have differences you know politically or can have some arguments which is normal for human beings they'll always feel that kind of solidarity that's not comparable with anything else he wrote that nobody will ever again be able to divide fight us you know uh between a leftwing camp or a right-wing Camp because we all came from the same camp and it's a concentration camp and nothing compares to that so uh I'm all in favor of maintaining and expanding that dialogue between Uh Russian Civil Society the Russian Pro democracy movement the many many Russians who are against this War and who are against Putin's regime uh and our neighbors and our colleagues in Ukraine because you know what we'll always be neighbors that's the fact of geography and we will have to find ways of of living together and of overcoming this horrendous tragedy that the Putin regime has has Unleashed uh first in 2014 let's not forget this has been going on for more than 10 years now and then especially after the full scale invasion in in February 2022 it is not going to be an easy process it's not going to be a quick process but we know we know that it's possible uh you know when I uh still lived in Moscow before my arrest and when I would come to Strasburg for sessions of the Parliamentary assembly of the Council of Europe there's no convenient connection between um Moscow and Strasburg so I would normally fly to Frankfurt and then rent a car and then drive just a couple of hours drive from from Frankfurt to Strasburg I'm a historian I know how much blood was spilled over that land by France and Germany elas laen you know the Franco Prussian War the first world war the second world war there was so many victims there was so much Carnage there was so much suffering and it would seem that such tragedies would be impossible to overcome but you know when I was driving from Frankfurt to Strasburg I didn't even know if I was still in Germany or already in France there's no border there's no conflict it's the same currency it's it's an open space and people live next to to each other in peace and Harmony if it was possible to do between France and Germany it will be possible to do so between Russia and Ukraine again this was not be this will not be easy this will not be quick but we will have to work on that and of course the major responsibility here lies with us Russians because it was the ruling regime in Russia that launched this aggression and that will be something that our society as a whole will have to publicly reflect on uh and we'll have to um overcome in a way uh that will make sure that such evil can never again be repeated is the West doing enough uh to to help UK Ukraine win for example Ukraine Iran just sent hundreds of ballistic missiles uh to Russia and I have a feeling that the world the West is just watching in the super you know well I've I've had uh obviously very small bits of uh information reaching me in prison but I do remember I guess this this was several months ago when for example the US Congress um waited for month and months and and months to to pass a new a new Aid package and of course when something like this happens uh Mr Putin and people around him in the Kremlin are are very happy and and so I I believe it is important that this support from Western democracies to Ukraine doesn't just stop at words uh but is uh is is expressed with some practical actions as well and um I think a lot will depend over what happens in the US this this Autumn for obvious reasons uh I think the Crimean has its eyes set firmly on the American election uh and and the consequences that that may bring but I I hear the fatigue I understand the fatigue I was just in Germany a few days ago I've had meetings uh not only with Chancellor Schultz and vice Chancellor habek but also with other people in the bundestag across the political spectrum and uh I know that a lot of people in Germany are uh getting tired of this you know for understandable human reasons obviously people get tired of war and we saw the recent Regional election results in in the former Eastern Germany that were won by well what are essentially in the German political discourse are considered to be the protin parties but again to go back to what we just discussed I think the the problem is that if there is some sort of a freezing uh to this conflict if the Putin regime is allowed uh any kind of a face saving exit from this war that's not going to end the war that's just going to prolong it and all it means is that we'll be talking about another War a year or a year and a half down the road and I repeat this again the only strategic solution the only way to really end the war and to really ensure longterm peace stability and Security in Europe is to make sure that the Putin regime is out of power and for that to happen it must first lose the war in Ukraine do you think you you could carry the Russian people with you how big is the other Russia which actually opposes Putin sure um so I mentioned that major political changes in Russia usually come unexpectedly and suddenly and nobody has ever been able to predict how when exactly they would come more than that uh up until you know very shortly before those changes people were confident that nothing would ever happen that you know the regime power was strong stable nothing would ever change you know I doubt that uh the zarus inor minister k f ple when he boasted in 1904 about the need for a small Victorious War as he termed it against Japan to Stave off Revolution I doubt that he expected that that war which turned out to be neither small nor Victorious uh would actually trigger a revolution and would end up um creating a constitutional monarchy in Russia where the Zar was you know forced to to to concede a parliament freedom of the press freedom of political parties and so on when uh Vladimir Lenin gave his famous speech in Zurich to the young Swiss social Democrats at the end of January 1917 and said that we old folks will not live to see the decisive battles of the coming Revolution I doubt he expected that the revolution would start in six weeks and I'm old enough myself as a child but nevertheless left a very strong imp ression old enough myself to remember the days of August 1991 the collapse of the Soviet regime that went down in 3 days and when nobody at the beginning of August 1991 could have predicted that the Soviet regime would not exist by the end of that same month and now the entire Soviet Union would no longer exist Exist by the end of that same year this is how things happen in Russia nobody will be able to tell you exactly when or how the Putin regime uh will will go down but we know that it will because nothing is forever that's very obvious fact but also more importantly because look we know how history operates we know the laws and the logic and and and the ways of development of History I'm a historian by education and there is absolutely no doubt that the general historical Trends yes there are some shortcomings yes there are some setbacks some disappointments but the general historical trends without any doubt are away from tyranny and towards political Freedom if we look at the map of Europe you know just three and a half decades ago that's nothing by historical standards half of Europe uh was living under dictatorships or authoritarian regimes today there are only two dictatorships left in Europe that's Putin's Russia and lenk's belus um and I have absolutely no doubt that their time is limited too because you know the famous phrase that the Ark of History bends towards Liberty may not Bend as fast as we'd like but there's no question about the direction there's absolutely no reason why it would be impossible to have democracy in Russia people who suggest this uh I believe that you know such an argument that there are certain countries and certain Nations and certain peoples that are just unfit to live under a democracy well first of all this so-called argument is insulting but much more importantly it is it is false I think the best response to this kind of argument was given by President Reagan in his famous Westminster address in 1982 when he said that it is cultural condescension or Worse to suggest that there's a nation on the face of this Earth that would prefer Slavery to Freedom you know those words ring just as true today as they did four decades ago Russians are no worse and no better than other Europeans there are so many countries in Europe that used to live under tyranical regimes under dictatorships and it was said about them as well countries like Spain or Germany but you know they're destined to live with these kinds of regimes forever look at them today there's absolutely no reason why Russia should be different I have absolutely no doubt that in a very foreseeable future Russia will become a democratic country and uh I view it as my task and my duty and my responsibility to do everything that I can to try to bring that day a little closer would you warn macron against any engagement with Putin or do you see in terms of real politic uh engagement between the governments of France and other Western countries and Russia as inevitable and even desirable to help bring about an end to the war in you know what I think we've had enough of real politic real politic is what made Putin the monster that he here is today because for so many years uh after Putin came to power we uh in the Russian opposition movement tried to to say to warn to shout about the dangers that this regime represented not just to us in Russia but also to to our neighbors in Europe to to everybody to everybody else in the world because the way such regimes operate in our country is that with time inevitably uh domestic internal repression turns into external aggression this is exactly what we saw with Putin and it was obvious from the very beginning that this was going to happen and so the so-called real politique that Western leaders for so long engaged in uh with regard to Vladimir Putin's regime when you know they would look into his eyes and see his soul when they would declare resets with him when they would invite him to International Summits and and legitimize him in the eyes of the International Community and uh sort of give Financial gains and benefits to his regime and so on that is in large part what brought us to this moment when we are uh living through the largest military conflict in Europe since the end of the second world war and so uh no we certainly don't need more real politic that's one thing we definitely do not need and I think it is very important that the world's democracies stand on their values stand on their principles actually practice the principles that they are founded on and if we're talking about the specific situation it is very important that Vladimir Putin is not allowed to win the war against Ukraine I'll say more than that it's very important that Vladimir Putin is not allowed to have a phas saving exit from this war in Ukraine the Putin regime must be defeated in this war of aggression that it has launched against Ukraine that is absolutely clear that is the message that I conveyed in my last TV interview the day before my arrest in Moscow in April 2022 that is a message I'm repeating again today because if God forbid the Putin regime is allowed to sort of present the outcome of this war as a victory and survive in power all it means is that you know a year or 18 months from now we'll be talking about another war or another conflict or some other catastrophe that that the Putin regime uh will uh will unveil because Vladimir Putin's been in power for 25 years and throughout all this time this man has brought war death and suffering both to our people in Russia and also to others around us the only strategic solution to this crisis the only strategic endgame is for the Putin regime to be out of power and for Russia to finally enter a path of normal Democratic European development if we don't want to freeze the problem and leave it to the next Generation to solve what if we actually want to find a long-term strategic solution this is what we uh must keep our eyes on because once again I firmly and fundamentally believe that the only way to ensure peace stability and security and democracy in Europe over the long term is with a free peaceful and Democratic Russia as part of that equation vladim guard uh told told us just now that you might have been followed here by two Russian looking men one was wearing purple purple sh shirt and another gray did you see them no oh you're laughing but is security an issue are you afraid for your for your safety look I've been twice poisoned by the FSB to near death for my position work I've received a 25e sentence in prison essentially a life sentence in h security prison in Siberia uh you know safety is not a word that comes into the vocabulary of somebody who is in opposition to Putin's regime in Russia we know all the risks my closest friend and my mentor Boris nof was murdered literally in front of the Kremlin and Putin's orders in February of 2015 and we know very well that these attacks against cran opponents happen not just on Russian soil but outside as well but first of all I'm not going to become paranoid over this because that's exactly what the other side wants and secondly and actually most importantly I believe in in what I do I've been in this for 25 years I came to work with Boris n back in the Autumn of 1999 I've been in Russian opposition politics for a quarter Century now uh the the the same period of time that Putin has been in power I believe in what I do I care about Russia uh I believe in the future of Russia I think I think my country deserves a better future than to live under a murderous aggressive dictatorial regime led by a former Soviet KGB officer and so I'm going to continue my work whatever whatever are the risks but the most important thing here is that at the end of the day it's not about personalities uh nobody has ever been able to change or alter or unn know the laws of History the logic of historical development whether Putin likes it or not the future is coming and the future of Russia is democratic and even if he kills all of us all of those who are the public faces of the Russian Pro democracy movement today well all that means is that others will come in our place because the future cannot be stopped and Vladimir Putin won't be able to either [Music]