Bleeding Green Interviews: Mal Meninga

[Applause] all rers fans it's Jared kroer Raider 284 here you're listening to episode number five of the bleeding green podcast series well I'm absolutely privileged to be uh here today uh at radus HQ interviewing uh quite possibly uh the greatest footballer ever to play rugby Lee if he's not the greatest he's mightily in the top group um and of course um a legend at this club um malman you're a part of the bleeding green interviews yes uh this is in fact interview number five um and uh and and we'll we'll we'll go a long way back we'll start a fairway back and work our way through not only to the to the great years for the club or at least the first first great years of the club I'm sure there are many in front of us but uh not only did that but actually to work our way through to the kind of thing you're doing now and have been in life post football yeah so let's go a long way back um and uh this was an interesting uh question very similar for Alan Tong who I interviewed just the other day and that is in your case being brought up and let's call it country Queensland I know you went to amuchi door you know High School there but let you know it's basically the country versus for example growing up in Brisbane or growing up in Sydney or whatever it might be what did that offer you as a kid growing up in that sort of situation um for me was I had a happy childhood you know so not not in wealth but certainly certainly in um in family and um you know so dad was a a um a quite well-known rugby league player in the the bush area so so ran buber the wide wide Bay Area um he also was a cane cutter but also he worked in the Sawmill so he went from sort of place to place they born in buber I was born in buber went to marabar went to Wai went to called Monto fangul back to MTO then back to ro or so based around rugby league um and dad was Captain coaching Captain coaches he coached Captain coached um we played in Captain coach 22 years in the bush and uh played in 21 Grand finals you know so it's extraord had extraordinary success and mom was well she was an AR supporter she loved the game you know so she was you know the woman behind you know the player and she was took interest herself in the club really Mia in the clubs that that your dad was going to yeah absolutely so she was she bought right into it you know canteen lady wash jerseys all that sort of thing you know so um yeah know I was brought up in the game uh you right from right from birth um the same my brothers and you know we had a wonderful upbringing you know rugby league was our Cal was Central uh to our to our our living um you know was Central you know as the social fabric to all those country towns um and there's obviously a sense of I was it was a very disciplined environment um you know Dad was pretty strict and mom was similar you know so um you know I'm very thankful for those early years because that's where you you start to you know formulate your personality and and uh all the sort of things that you attitudes and and values that you have you know when you you move lat on later in life did I know of course about the importance of the Queensland police force in the early years for you but before that was there a period after you dead perhaps you dead finished I I know viewers would be interested in this or you know Raider fans and that is what was the first point at which um uh there was a bit of stability in your football do you know what I mean given the you know you're traveling around obviously the family's moving around with your dad yeah no was it wasn't a lot of stability um but that was just normal normal part of life yeah you know so was accepted you know we didn't have any any thoughts that you know heong would been disrupted all the time you know was just part of who we were as a family and um you know was part of that environment that rugby league environment um but you you're right I grew up I grew up in a rugby league but also you know T TV come along around in the mid-60s there black and white and I used to watch shows Co like bellbird and the division four come up homicide Matlock police all all those all those um old you know police drama um series and things like that and from there I you know quite Poss Rex mossup was re Rex mossup calling before you yourself well I didn't I didn't I didn't we TV so we had we had game of the day was brisan BR so we we're watching you watching uh the Brisbane competition I didn't I didn't grow up I didn't know what the who was St George yeah you know I didn't know the grahe langland the red gazers you know I was more you know the Greg Greg viers and the Wayne BN those sort of guys were playing in the in the brl so right um course because of that was sort of rugby league and police you know so always wanted to be a policeman cuz I grew up you know watching police drama shows and when did you join the police how old were you I join I joined as a kid 15y old so I did my junior certificate at Richard or high school so I passed there um went for interview so in those days it was a threeyear Cadet ship so I applied and joined the plance force got interviewed two questions you know why alteristic reasons why you want to join the police force answered that the next question was I see you play representative rugby league yes I do you know game okay that's fine interview over so about two weeks later um you know I was accepted into the in the academy so I had you did you did your senior certificate which is fantastic got paid to do that but then you have another year in police law and then you get warning when you were 19 so it was again um I left time was 15 but you know um uh it was in an environment a very disciplined environment the police force that you know and then you know probably my best mates now um some of my best mates are still from that era ju two questions and one I just interesting your thoughts did you strike we know that sort of basically what was happening in Queensland politically at that time we're talking the second half of 1980s yeah uh into the 1990s did you strike any racism that affected you personally or not at all um well RAC racism was R you know right from an early age for me at school in particular you know footy Fields but again it was it was accepted you know so we we I was part of that era where um you know someone racially abused you or tried to bully you um we felt that that was that we're getting over top of them you know we're we're we're a better person we're a better player and all those sort of things your physical size would have been an issue as well Dad Dad Dad always said to me you know it's okay if they abuse it but as long as they got a smile on their face they haven't got a smile on their face well you know they're serious so then you got to do something about it so we reacted in that way you know so would have been well experienced in that himself I dare say absolutely and and Ms I mean Dad Dad and Mom got married in 59 there's no one not from Mom's family or or Dad's family was at the wedding because of because of those social yeah you know you know problems they had in those those early years there when you know I was born you know so yeah I mean it was always R and I I really I really got it um you know abuse you cuz I was a policeman and I was black and you know I was being successful I got that up until I moved down the raders to be honest with you you know so so you know it wasn't until I come down here and um started being successful with the club here that that sort of the respect come back you know and um you know you still get some sort of racial comments now but um it's a water off a duck B yeah we'll we'll pick that up too you know obviously the move down here uh shortly but just the I suppose the other thing in the same sort of chronological period Wayne Bennett uh appears in your life you know quite directly because que police tell us a little bit about that when you first met him and how that led on to a connection that picked up rugby league well I mean you're in the environment the police environment you [ __ ] scared of everyone it was a huge discipline you know so we had the we had the the sergeant um you know the the Dorry Sergeant they used to come around and get you out of bed and they got the whistle and you had to standard attention so it was a very disciplined environment and it was because of that you know we you know there's the seniority so you know Wayne was I think was a his conable first class of that time time he was working in the in the PE Department of the the police academy um he seen me play a bit of touch footy down down at the AIL and he came up to me a couple of days later and he come up me and basically said well you play R League do you well said you I was stumbling my words yes conable you know so and then he he sort of as he's turned his back and he walked away said well we'll see you know so that was my first introduction to Wayne in those days but you know he he was really instrumental dad was fantastic you know those early years you know up until under I was under 14s um but then Wayne you know he introduced me to goal setting and Vince Lombardi and video and all that sort of stuff around and skills and you know being fit in the fitness you know so probably the fittest i' ever been would have been you know through those Academy years you know so 16 17 18 years of age um I learned to work hard you know set goals and you know and uh work toward work with the purpose your M and able to get to many games at that stage where were they living in the where playing yeah they're on the coast um Family split up in this early early early um ' 80s so yeah so that was that was of course dad had a pretty serious accident in the the saw mills um he had big log come off the skids and and smacked into him and and sort of broke broke all his ribber broke the man as well right and unfortunately had psychological problems because of that and and you know we we we made a choice and we went with Mom and um yeah uh yeah but you know you learn from those experiences you you do indeed so there Queensland police force rugby league um how did things move in terms of the your earliest football in the Brisbane competition well how old were you well it wasn't until wasn't until Wayne got hold of me that I even thought about having a keran r League I didn't was all about police being a placeman you know so I was never I had no Ambitions to you know play in the brl on the basis that you you you perhaps uh thought at that point you might you you was it not thinking about it at all or was it thinking I might be up to it you know what were your thoughts I love the game I was always good at it um but I never had any ambition you know to play play for you know play at a higher level or play in rep level you know so I always again I always wanted to be police until Wayne Wayne took took hold of me and like those things I just mentioned around goal setting and um he had belief in me I member it's always significance there's always someone that you know that um you hang off that that you believe in and respect that when when they say something gives me good advice and you we're sitting in in a circle um the Queensland Police Academy site where we played against the New Wales Queensland Queensland or New Wales how how old would you have been right for this this is yeah I was about 16 and half 17 going on for 17 and he said to me in front of the group he said M you can do anything you want to in life as long as it put your mind to it and I was just that sort of hit a stuck a cord with me and felt I felt gez and I went up to my room and I said you know I I wrote down I obviously wanted to be a policeman I wanted to play for s in Brisbane I wanted to play for Queensland when I was 19 and then I wanted to play for Australia after that that was my three goals I set myself you know I I've got to come in here I don't know whether you with with the my the history that I love writing absolutely blooding great of the Raiders in that is a photograph of Dave ferer diary well I said if you like she very similar yeah that's exactly the kind of pathway saw and obviously just as you achieved it yeah uh in you know in the in the Stellar atmosphere he did you know not not quite as much but pretty darn close well the police force the police force was um was renowned for having you know good sports people yeah you know so that was that was how sometimes you got um appointed into the academy you know because of your your sporting progess and your physical nature you know policemen were were um you know caued in that in that manner now obviously a bit different today but um because but R believe was a central part of being a policeman in Queensland do you have any memories of that game that you just alluded to Queensland police fee I play few I played a couple of those those in aate series and I remember playing Lang Park would have mean would have been 776 or would have been against near Wales place was there a machismo element to this was there a state V State oh State I didn't realize I didn't realize again this in state rivalry right and then what I didn't also realize obviously l park in those days about 33,000 we had 20,000 watching us is that right playing we s of had we were the curtain raiser to to it all it finally dawned on me because all the police games always ended in brawls and we we're built the crap out of each other and that's why the that's why the people come to watch the game want to see The Bu the [ __ ] out of each other basically before they get back on the streets again you know so but that was my first introduction to inter state and that rivalry you know I was um yeah it was pretty special occasion which takes us long I think I'm right and saying but correct me if I am wrong or you're only as good as your sources your first state of origin game was 1982 no I I played the inaugural in 1980 okay there we go um yeah so a lot of young kids with a few old Fells you know Arthur beatson and Rocket ready Rod Morris Greg olant kri B would start coming through there um Alan Smith who was playing for North Sydney at the time to we could talk about any one of the that you just named but I think I if we were going to single some one person out it has to be Arthur peton yeah um what was what was it like C of as the age you were the age he was and that that that you know I mean all the things we've read about but tell us a bit about it from your perspective well from my perspective you know being of CED mean he believed in me you know so well it wasn't a particular that game in in 80 but you it was more around respect and we didn't want to let him down he was at the back end of his career he's 36 years of age he was playing Reserve grade for power matter at the time and all he wanted to do was play for his State he never did that you know so um it was his first his first time he put on my own Jersey on we weren't we weren't willing to let that slide slide you know so uh but in ensuing years you know after coached the the team yeah um certainly in um in ' 82 he coached the team and he used to write us little notes all the time okay and put it in little envelopes and just pass and around the play and what would be the sort of thing that that you got I mean he said he was very proud of me um you very proud of the way I carry myself very proud um that I around my South The Islander background and way I I I sort of you know speak out on On th in those terms and things like that um yeah he just said he just was very some of that some of that believe me it's like Wayne Wayne believed in me when I was you know 16 17 years of age and Arthur you know kept that going for me because that the 80s the 80 game was a catalyst for us for self-belief CU I played 79 yeah I played for Queens in the inter State against in in an ordinary in a normal um inate game and you know I know I know that in the back of our minds we just wanted to play well um we we knew at times we weren't going to win it because we're playing against all these Superstars for the New South Wales competition and we just wanted to play well 80 was a time when all the when with Arthur and Rocket ready in particular Rod Morris they were really influential people in in that those early years it was was Wally and myself and car boson was there Colin Scott you know all these guys that that come about um you know in those early years is um they it was a catalyst for our self belief you we we were actually good enough to play in that Arena and they and did those old the older players obviously getting that opportunity were they concern of course to Mentor the younger players who were a pretty mightily good crop incidently yeah I I think um you Wally tells a story like about 82 um you know most the team was with two years of each other you know so 92 were 22 I was 22 you know Wally and Jean miles and choppy close they were they were in the 20 23 some of these young kids coming through um were you know 21 so we're about two years and so it was a whole crop of of players and then you know prior to that sort of 8081 um you know Rod Morris is still playing at the time and uh arur was a coach and things like that was just a you they said we could win and we believed him and we and more times than off we did and in those earliest years were there any players alongside you that maybe and I'll ask this in the context perhaps of the Raiders a bit later but any sort of unsung heroes ones that that that you recall that period that might have got the ploted that they deserved or that you know were was something really you know offering something really special to the team uh always you know so you always have a player or or a group of players that don't get the recognition as generally of forwards as generally of forwards of you know the the Wally F and the Smiths and even the poor vorton really the poor mccabes um the Greg kesu is the hooker he went on a tour but really he was went along as a the third hooker in that tour and had hard play any game so it's always no matter even today you know you always got these unsung heroes the players that you know want to play you want to play beside because you know you're going to rely on them you know in a game when it gets tough I was going to ask it a bit later but this would be the perfect time and that is was state of origin the hardest football you ever played at the time yeah absolutely it was it was the fastest yeah you know so every moment mattered in origin you know so to to where it is a beast today um International footy was tough yeah and when you talk about hard and tough um it's a slower game but there's there's different rules in international program you know you um you had to be tough you had to be of strong character you know because um you're only to get build it up yeah you know that's that's that's that's uh international space but you know Origins quick it's interesting how that hasn't changed Lally at all you know what I mean every player comes into it that's exactly that what they say asked about it it was that much faster trying to suck it in you know every every play matters you know so nrls you know early early early runs in in in the in the set's important then your Kick's important but every run every support play every kick every kick Chase is um you so important and you got to get that right speaking as someone who grew up in New South Wales and seeing you know however many times monotonously the Queensland team would in fact play in that last five minutes you do something you were usually involved but something really special but that really sort of bore it out you know fully 80 minutes everyone going flat chat but it was great footy so let's just move it along a little bit state of origin 1980 uh you know and in those early 1980s years um uh you're presumably beginning to think a little bit more about the possibility of playing in the Sydney comp was that is that reasonable to say were you starting to think in say 83 '84 ' 85 about Sydney or what was going on no no I was really happy being a policeman and it wasn't until I went away on the 282 with the kangaroos um I experienced the the lifestyle and um the playing fields and the support over in England um and then it wasn't until 8 84 so 85 season when few of the few of the English clubs come a knock yeah and I made a decision to go to St St and that was unbelievable experience and let's just pause there because I know and I've heard you myself in fact I think you and I talked about it on radio perhaps once or twice before and that is that one of the things that you loved one of the things of a number and we'll talk about that in a sec was was the kind of community that you were there you know very much a part of the community which is precisely what you you made the analogy to coming to camra we we we'll pick that up but let's stay with s Helens for a moment what was it that your particular I mean given how cold it was and you're a queenslander that must have been a shock to the system but what you know what were some of the other things that you loved about about playing English football in that terrific season well I love I love the style of footing you know so I was pretty open and um you know defense wasn't import so important as it is over here much has changed not much has changed um but they love they love their footy you know they like throwing the ball around and I think the the thing that for me that I I realized right from the start you had to play well you know because you know you're on on on good money when you could pair the money to their locals you know so you had to play well and um and and they hadn't won any competitions for a long period of time and all of a sudden you I took a couple of Australians over you know Phil viers come with me right young fell called Paul hson who was playing for North still a good M of M you know so he came over as well and um we had this all this success with these quality players and quality people and when you have success well then you know things seem to Blossom fans are on your side you got great support um and then yeah we just felt that we were just part of this community we're well accepted and uh but you had to play well you had to you had to win you know that's part of the deal that's why you get recruited to clubs you that's why you you know I felt you know I thought camra when I when I made that decision to come to camra I thought camra's better years uh were in front of him because of that environment that Saints provided for me yeah yeah and they who was who was the coach of s in that year I was a guy called Billy benan yeah so he he was an ex player ex ex Center as well you know so um because they' been I mean a very important historic Club yes I I may be wrong but I think a guy called Vince kelus was carus was part of part of that in that very tough M of course so um Eric Ashton Eric as you know in that well that 6 you know you wouldn't know it but I remember him the 62 side dick been s ens too I think he was they were some brilliant he play for Castleford as well so yeah they had a rich history there's no doubt um uh they weren't quite as successful when I went over there but um out of that you know came some some special special players as well you know Harry pinners who who actually captained his country after that as well so all these all these players starting to rise to the occasion you know so yeah it was um it's just a really good environment to play in uh provide you play well yeah and it would have been presumably and it's not dissimilar to say you know your father and you're you know traveling around with your father being Captain coach pretty similar in the country towns of New South Wes and Queensland you know what I mean when you when you go as Captain coach there's a certain expectation especially with the captain coach because he's getting the dough usually you know but it would have been similar and then of course you start thinking about well and well maybe it's maybe we we we should get onto it because so many things to discuss but given that experience and it coming in 8485 so we we just shift over to 1985 um and it's been written about indeed I'm one of the people who has written about it but that that period in those months when you were considering uh you know coming to Sydney and being woed I think amongst others certainly by the Raiders but also by amongst others Manny ringer um can you tell us a little bit about your memories again I'm sure that a number of the Raider fans would know this story but I don't think it hurts to be going over it again tell us a little bit about what led up to you signing for the Raiders uh in in later 1985 well well Wayne was Wayne Ben was coaching sou at the time as well um we we got thrashed in the 84 Grand Final by winam and um you know I was talking to Wayne about because I wasn't enjoying my footy either would r b league and you know Wayne made me Captain to the of the Southside and I didn't handle that too well because um you start worrying about others you know didn't quite understand leadership at that that particular time FL from fans well so you sort of you sort of wear all that burden on your shoulders where you know you need you need you need to turn that around you need to actually play well yourself before you you know then you can impart your wisdom or you know talk to other players or things like that you know um but you know I didn't it took me that year to to learn that lesson so I went away disenfranchised about it all um and I come back you know feeling super confident you know by playing over and over with Saints and then I said to way I think it's time for me to go to Sydney and he agreed he agreed with me so um then I was getting a few offers obviously from Manley East and and um and Wayne had a really good relationship with Donnie ferer right and Don was was the Australian coach at that particular time Queensland part of his CV most definitely more or less yeah so and I know and Wayne's relationship was really strong and you know um and respected Don so we had these these conversations around where I should go um so there's a number of reasons so the Saints thing was really important for me because I understood one team Town yeah I understood if you can if you can start to um you know develop a really good footy team that's going to be successful that town would get behind it um absolutely I understood I understood that you know camra being in the bush y you know I was I was a bushy you know so I didn't really want to live in live in Sydney as well but aside from that uh it started to be successful particularly in the lower grades um it got a great breeding ground great development Development Area down here I think the reserve grade actually made the top five the year that year in 85 I think I mean disproportionately successful for coming in an 8282 exactly right and then you Don ferer obviously had an impact Wayne's influence on that yeah um yeah and you know so and I I liked obviously like jar yeah and and and um you know at the time you know his dad was pretty prevalent here as well you know so Les um there's when when push was getting close to shove Manley put a bit of heat on did they not wasn't sort of famously or infamously so to get you quickly yeah yeah unfortunately yeah they did well not well fortunately they did because I made the decision we bugger you yeah you know I'm not going to go to you so see I had to I had to make a decision on the phone to him um and I said no I'm buggers I'm not I'm not playing for you guys we're going to go to Cambra it's it's interesting I I I suppose I have written about this back in the day but I I have to put my story which was that I grew up in the northern beaches so Manley and indeed in the manly sides and I played against a few me and Martin and Company um and but as often as not manly had 10 or 11 local players in their 13 yeah but then I went away overseas to to do some YY work by the time I come back the whole game you know man changed exactly you they you know the whole the whole thing was on and completely changed yeah well Frank Stanton was you know manly coach fatty vorton was there choppy close was there so um and then boo turned up you know so so you know it was um it was a pretty enticing to go there obviously it's on the beach it's not a bad place to live but abely at the end of the day at the end of the day um I don't know I just had this feeling about the one team Town yeah and I just had a feeling about about the area and um um you know so there was still there was still no Broncos no Titans no cowboys there was no team to really um stay in in Queensland for so yeah and then you know signing you know for the Raiders then proved pretty you know uh prolific because then you know Gary beler followed Steve H followed CH Ferguson was there you know Gary coin came down you know so it was every single one of them wanting to play with you but I mean that not there reasons reasons and but they're all great players in their own right and sort of you know more or less straight away um you know certainly in ' 87 we had a fair bit of success well let's let I mean again people would be interested in this when when one does go back and I remember when I was writing the history only a few years ago I had more or less forgotten 1986 uh where things didn't really go according to plan just reflecting on that ever so briefly what what what was it about that year you know were you feeling a bit of heat in that down you you personally or was just there what were the factors that that that meant that there wasn't sort of more or less immediate success which as we know is going to happen the following year I think thing I learned in ' 86 is that um it does take a while to adjust to a new club a new new new environment um new coach you know new new ways of doing things um you know playing with different different players a different way of of training and preparing for games so it took me reasonable to say that the training situation itself in the in the in June and July and August would have been rather different than what you were used to and Helens of course yeah no absolutely it was it was really it was tough you know we first come down we had a we had that mad month you know in January we trained every day for for a month you know so um yeah it was something that we weren't weren't used to and it wasn't till the back end of the season um that we started to find our feet you know in the competition you know playing against the you know the New South Wales clubs um yeah so it took us took us that long uh to actually adapt yeah to it but then obviously um the club made some decisions with Wayne as well and um working with Donnie in in ' 87 and but I think because of the experience we had in ' 86 and the way the Wayne does things with and Don you know bought into it all um it it had more you know positive impact on the players you know mentally and physically and um yeah we and because of that we we grew I mean it's been written about but to I I guess in some ways League itself was going through changes then where there was beginning to be more skills-based training more skills yeah more more weights as well so you know in ' 87 introduced weights to us um Kevin Kelvin Giles came um sha mlay you know he was a local school teacher come did Fitness session so um yes all those sort of things were were totally different we still did a club it was still the club environment we had 23s and Reserve grade and and first grade we all trained together um but it was a different way of training you know like you said the skills and um the way we train when we you know from a a speed you know Porton Shore McRae brought that Fitness was a bit different certainly waste was a bit different we played a bit differently you know and and and on that very point and given that it with the first half of 1987 was not all that successful I think it might have been about 50% you know halfway through yeah did were you beginning to feel confident about the way the team was going sort of even at the point at which there hadn't been much success before the second half of the year yeah well it it proved it proved that the way we prepared for the season had a you know again a positive impact on the end of the season cuz I broke my arm yeah you know not so many games looking at a considerable scar on the left hand side I so I didn't play too many games that year until the back end of the year you know so well um so speak to David if I'm not wrong that was that was a come that was that was a comeback G but um yeah but the team was hardly successful I wasn't playing you know so so the way that the team was prepared in that offseason hold them in good stead you know through the year and again it takes a while to adapt you know again from experience I knew that it'll take least six month or half a season just to adapt to a style of play and when they once they started adapt to that yeah um you know they were pretty prolific we School plenty of points and you know you big teams Fair comfortably and a few it's interesting because the the analogy to the earliest years of the brumes is a good one that is to say You' not only got As it were players coming from outside who are brilliant uh led by yourself but you've also probably you'd say almost by chance in both the brumes and certainly with the Raiders you've got a new crop of region kids yes who come into that side you know who are and and you know Lori comes in that year you know know Glen Lazarus amongst other the young kids coming in and so that that's the potential that we saw you know as we had had Kevy wallers come down from Queensland Steve Jackson terrific yeah Steve Jackson Peter Jackson he came down played you know so we had some great players but yeah you're right the local kids um certainly made the club you know Glenn and and Lori come in and then you know Bradley Clyde you know Ricky Ricky turned up in8 so and it is interesting when you're looking at that season because that is the season when to pick up why you you're coming here and thinking this is I like this sort of situation and somewhat similar to what you'd to some extent had in Queensland certainly it's in Helens you come to CRA which I'm sure there would have been people in your ear saying oh you know Public Service Town sort of no soul the all all the cliches and I can speak with some Authority on that because I'd never written a word on sport I'd don't been in literature and history Etc but that year especially the second half of the year so much happened in this city that I was more well I've got to say it I was inspired to say I got to write something on this and the camera times said well why don't you put something in and which they I kind of remember I do believe they ran on Saturday on on the full broad sheet sort of with the Raider horns and I was on about the the change you know that had actually happened tangibly in the town absolutely you know and it was something something that was terrific to be sort of relatively recent arrival in cber with your family to have that you know to see that change in the town but that's that's when it started you know and we're still it continues to this day in 2023 but that season even though there'd been a sort of a hard a hard core which included well was mostly quean people but that that year 87 was when the links you know and properly that we hadn't moved to Bruce Stadium but nevertheless the the links between in a sense the national capital the Country Town grew and and de Dean Lance was a captain at the time he he summed it up magnificently about you know camber has got a soul yeah and you know the um the thing that we learned from from ' 87 is that we celebrated too early you know so cra cra grew grew a heart and a soul uh everyone got behind us but we were celebrating before we even got to the Grand Final week it was it it was it was enormous and I've got to say I sort of contributed I mean we all did but that's exactly right it was such a fantastic think weak yeah but I mean ultim even though it didn't culminate in the Grand Final win what it did do was to almost culminate in a a changed appearance to the city itself absolutely and then you know we and because of that you know we're playing for Cambra yeah and we're playing for the the green you know the mighty GRE everything was Green in 87 fantastic when the Bakers started doing you know greenk camera milk had the lime milk just just yeah so it and so there's 1987 and it's it's a wonderfully successful year without being you know finally bringing home the bickies but neverthe and even to get to play manly it was pretty good manly side that one as well must be said so that you know and they were at the end of the day deserving winners of a game that was hard fought but deserving winners so what did you personally take over into 1988 do you know what I mean was there were sort of feeling that that it could happen in 1988 the you know the momentum of 198 could carried on we had um we had uh obviously Wayne um you know Wayne situation I will we might come back to that in a moment but we had that so in ' 88 so that's why I'm going to 88 you know so we had we had to we had to make some decisions well the club made some decisions about Wayne moving back good Wayne going back decision to be made I know that you had and that was certainly going to be one of the questions kind of not not a I won't say a role in that but certainly that that you had an opinion on that um and and two parts to it perhaps one is the the the the Wayne going to Queensland what were your thoughts at the time and uh then the hiring of a slightly I won't say wet behind the ears but a but a youngish Tim Sheen yeah what about that with Wayne Bennett's leaving and Tim Sheen's coming in what did you think about both coaches and um that situation I was I was personally confident that didn't matter who who was coaching us we're going to be successful you know so that was my thoughts on it all and in fact you know I signed a 5-year contract because I believe that yeah um so um you know Wayne obviously was a huge part of our success in ' 87 um but for you know family reasons um and obviously he's a queenslander you know he he um we the players gave him gave him our blessing really to move back I remember we us having a a ation at seford oville in the grand stand and when Wayne you made that was come out and made the announcement to the players that he was going to go back to back to Brisbane and Coach the Broncos and and he put a question to us you know I can go now or I can stay if I can stay yeah um it's your decision yeah so he left us for about 5 minutes we wed him to stay of course you know cuz the team was being successful sure uh Peter Jackson said up we want you to go and he's F you can see all the blood just drained drain out of his face and then we just thought oh we got you you know started laughing and carried on we just we moved on you know so um and then when we heard about Tim Sheen um like I said it you know we didn't know much about Tim but um what I found in conversations with Timmy he knew a lot about the game you know so you know to say the least a student yeah student of the game and even even this day his knowledge is you know one of the best in the game there's no doubt about his knowledge but you know for us I knew that we're going to learn plenty yeah you know under I mean you talked earlier about discipline there was amongst other things that he brought was a particular kind of discipline well Wayne Wayne and and Dom discipline we were always disciplined um and you know was fairly autocratic in those days you know so you know that's what you know players just come to train and they do what they're told um you know sometimes we have a we have a voice but in those days you know I was a bit more autocratic than it is today um buteny brought a bit of uh diplomacy to it you know democracy to it you know so he's a bit more conversational about footy and he's teaching teaching you know that the Ricky and the Lor's and you know those caliber of players about the game you know so we actually got to start to understand the game a lot better under Tim and um that's that's the first thing he brought um and then like you said before we had all these great Queens letters um we starting to get a few few kiwis and um we had all these local kids you know we all all very good players in their own right um and under Tim um he brought it together really well and you know uh am I right in saying it I may not be but that Tim brought to the club given of course having Wayne and and Dawn but Tim the breaking down of opponents looking you know looking at more OPP more footage you know that that element was we're doing video video with Tim you know so the old um BHS control B rewind go back again fast forward so so all the me that take an hour because there's all the fast forward the rewinds but yeah now we he was breaking it down with with that and you know we become a bit more visual in the way we prepared which is really good and did he bring democracy to that was he looking for your well not just yours you know your absolutely yeah and thees you know the haves he he understood you know you know Ricky's and Lor's rooll Steve Steve Wilders the hooker and and the spine you know so in those times it's still the same it is today you know so they they they carry a huge you know burden for the for the team um the other thing the other thing with um shayy said he kept on with the schools yeah he he still kept on with the with the club environment the family Club environment you know we were train with all the all the players in the club and we' would have all these skill sessions and you know we still we still go with the weights and things like that so he kept he kept what what um Wayne and Don introduced in ' 87 he kept um a fair bit of that but then he brought in like you said um the analytical side of the game with setting with the video before we get to 1989 let's just touch on that so you signed at the end of 1985 then it's 1986 and here we are in 1988 did you feel that the and given much has been written about I'm one of those but certainly with the likes of Jr Les the sort of club that that began in 1982 that really was looking to establish a particular kind of culture that would be something different to the Sydney clubs in this case and was did you find yourself very much at home with that and and enjoying contributing to that and well we played a really good brand of footy yeah you know so um if we see space we we the ball goes a space you know so um so we you know I really enjoyed the way we played but also um the thing that that gets overlooked at times I is because the defensive I thought were really good too yeah you know so we had some really good defensive structures Wayne was a very good defensive coach that's why why he implemented things same with Tim um so our defense was if not the best least second or top three you know every year that that we played you know so we're successful so even though we've scored plenty of points um we weren't let many many point points in as well so so we still we had a I think our all round game was really good but we played this expansive game and the way regor League should be played couldn't agree more I mean the words are exact I mean that's the thing for someone for for those of us camar looking at the the kind of quality that emerged for the first time properly in 1987 but then continues and you use the word expansive that's exactly right I mean the number of times I still remember can't remember what season but where there was a scrum W down maybe 10 out from the opposition Tri line and CH uh was going to go to to his wing and he was near the halfway mark he was actually literally so there's the line that's so deep and imagine coming you know you're coming you and others are coming at that line with the headest team but it was actually is it fair to say do you feel that the Raiders it's been written about I'm one of those who has written about it but played actually introduced the most expansive football certainly in my lifetime having been born in 1950 but remembering football from the 1950s and as we know the 1980s especially middle the early ' 80s was that tough was that tough can canbury football Warren Ryan football but the Raiders actually did change Rugby League at that point I mean the fact that it almost tied in we might come to that with Tina turn and others and the way was packaged but it was actually brilliant to watch and it did change the face of rugby league I think that comes on the back of the strength of each individual player so you know each individual player Ricky's long ball as an example he's kicking game L's a runner I'm a runner Gary Bel is a runner chick is a runner you know so so he he he um our plan was to our strengths you know so you know when we had a smart hooker yeah had a smart fullback as well so you know we we see Spa we see space you play to space yeah um but we do it at the right time you know so um comes from experience so you know in certainly in ' 87 888 '89 like I'm in M late 20s and Gary Bel in his mid-20s and you know so Steve wallers mid you know mid 20s early 20s you know so we had a we had a fairly experienced side too um when it come into particularly into ' 89 we had a but it wasn't really recognized as that you know Lor's already played you know three three years Glen Lazarus is saying you know so they didn't get they didn't get get recogniz not in Sydney you know there's a exactly she brought in she he brought in Ricky straight away and I guess that was Ricky's second full season you know so we had a really really um and you know Dean laners are still there the Gary coins are still there all those wonderful absolutely yeah Clyde's there you know he's at he's in his third year of rugby league as well so yeah I mean it's almost as if and you could write about it this way that the two stars of football because even though Bain was playing you know a good brand of football to be sure with a lot of lot of stars nevertheless it was pretty much coming out of that older School footing so it was almost the Grand Final of 1989 which you know is still regarded by most people as the greatest Grand final of the modern era I certainly believe it is uh was even though it's seen some beauty since but never still not as good as that one but it was actually almost the two brands of football coming together yeah and and the old school almost got you know old school almost got there their defense was unbelievable we had we had that many opportunities scoring opportunities in that first half yeah um and we just didn't we didn't get there you know so mainly because of their defense and their pressure they put put us under you know the Warren Ry Warren Ryan type um you know teams you know can we can we let's break maybe we'll break that down in a moment but just because given how significant That season was when you went into season 89 and we know how it's going to end what were your thoughts youve obviously still the arms the arms still an issue um were you at any stage second guessing yourself about you know it could be career ending or did you basically just roll on you know certainly that's the way it appeared no no not for me um I trained harder than ever trained U prepared better than ever prepared um and played better than I ever played you know when I come back you know so you know I was never going to give it away cuz I missed it too much yeah and I always thought my better years were in front of me you know and it's interesting you're in your your later 20s and you've got that young young group coming through M so let's let's basically sort of jump jump to it um uh you there's one thing I wanted to read it's the only thing I will read from the book but say they're not actually my words uh and then we might take a break and that is that um you had a note written to you um from Father John Woods um which uh I happen to quote in full if I can just go to it and I think it is worth cuz I I want to get your your feelings about it and I think it is worth quoting full since we've got the luxury of couple of hours here yeah so I'm reading directly Thursday 21 September 1989 dear M just a note to wish you and the other guys all the very best for Sunday I consider it a privilege to have been associated with you as chaplain over the years these sentiments would be echoed by your families friends uh and many thousands of camberra fans simply stated the grand fin is a challenge for you to realize your god-given potential as footballers inside of each of you inside each of you is a dream dreams do come true if you are willing to sacrifice what you are to become uh what you are to to become what your dreams call you to be my prayer for you is that of St Paul may your hidden self grow strong and he finishes I believe that you are ready for this challenge because you have all been willing to pay your dues thus far Sunday's game will be your most demanding payment it is simply another game and yet this game sums up all the other games in this game you will find out who you are may your hidden self grow strong may it be a great game played in the true Spirit of the occasion good luck God bless and see you Sunday John Woods there's a lot going on there you know you could actually deconstruct that in so many ways but were you how did you initially respond to receiving that note um it emotionally got me and he's right when did you read it first can I ask that well he gave it to me he gave it to me so I read it and then the the letter was so profound and so impactful yeah um so emotional I gathered the team together yeah okay so and I read and I read the letter to the team yeah as I recall Chris suiv might haveed whooped and and carried on but that I've got to ask this as the historian I assume that we don't have that letter anymore no what a Pity there now that would have been something for the club but we might we'll do we'll we'll work on that at some stage think of those sort of things at the time but but had it had an impact on the team it's interesting how that links as JR talking about when he brought Father John Woods on board you know that that what you know there was something to that in the cont he's more he's more than the priest yeah he's a friend yeah he is you know so yeah he also a very hard trainer in the earli days the front of the group more L yeah all the time so M was a big part of our team you know the whole club you know so yeah highly respected and of course continues to be there's something really special I think you know to have Victor the Viking AKA you know to have that many marriages that many births baptisms and things like that you he a lot he's been yeah but that was I mean it was such a terrific moment that you you know I'm always interested in the kind of you know in in myth but and that's almost a Mythic moment for the for team that we we're playing that well at half time we're down I think we're down 12 122 and not deserving of course it goes without saying we play we played really well we were very confident going into half time and tell us about HAL time I know you've talked about in other interviews but let's do it here so what you know where was what was what was K like what were you you didn't have to say much cuz we're we're we've already said it before he come into the room right you know everything's fine you know we'll get back into this game we're playing really good footy you know we just we just had to keep going you know we had to find that inner strength keep it that inner strength going absolutely talked about and then the more the game went on obviously the stronger we got and then into into in at Hal time you know we we were were confident we were ran back on the footy field I thought our second half was fairly dominant as well it was it was yeah um you know we had to fight hard because they were well prepared too they were they were really they were you know they were they were side at the top of their game you know favorites they really don't I remember every for memory in the Sydney papers every you know like like right through all the tips not a single one of course except for in camera in the camera times yeah exactly yeah they probably deserved it um but you know we always felt that we had a good footy team there just we had so many good young players coming through they didn't they the the general public and the and the critics didn't understand you know how good those young players were was coming through they were couple couple in Sydney just started to Twig late I do remember that I can't you know I've written about in the book but that's so so there's the half time and it's that kind of attitude what about at fulltime was there sort of in a sense Supreme yeah yeah yeah we're in a roll we knew we knew we're confident you know um sly kicked the field goal well let's can I get you can I get you to pause can I get you to pause on that because I'm going to get to extra time but just to take it one back and that is of course chick's try yeah that you know that so two things about that not only is it in fact a game you know and I had such fun writing about this but that step that he had to go once twice three times and then and then Barry you know and he was such a wonderful footballer to watch yeah uh you know he's my favorite he was he I mean in the earliest when we got him and I should remember the year we the Raiders got him in 80 they came the same year as us 86 is that right I thought it might have been 85 okay cuz I mean that just that was a CH you know there were there were things that that changed the club and that was one of them him on One Wing and Terry fire on the other yeah big fair fair wi combination nothing wrong with that nothing wrong with that anyway scores and this is probably the perfect moment to pick it up given the fact that one doesn't see a towoke goal kicker anymore but I can remember being older than you uh by a fair way that everyone was toe poking back in the sort of 50s and 60s Keith Barnes others all the great kickers yeah in your case you were known to on occasion spray the towoke but the Topo kick but here's the thing whenever it was on the line for a kick and if ever there was a kick that had it on the line it was that con ver you know and as you always I mean always did it's not it was just straight you know there was never never any doubt when you were kicking and given that style did was it was it the the business of going through you know what I mean what what worked for you what um what did you have any approach to kicking I I I I remember vividly that kick yeah yeah okay tell us about I got the ball as quick as I could right I put the sand down as quick as I could I I dressed the ball as quick as I could and kicked it as quick as I could there you go about halfway out if I'm not wrong without having to um think about it you know so even that's experience straight there you know exactly I just I just I didn't want to think about it I just did it as quick as I could yeah well it went and I was confident Finn you would have seen it it went went over the black dot about 15 up you know it was the perfect kyck so so we're level as you say that the team gets together well it's only a couple of minutes that talking about it can you remember by any chance what was said in that Circle or was just everyone kind of confident you know out there I can't remember what I said but I know I would have said something along uh that we just had to keep going the way we're going we didn't have to do anything different you know we had to play the ball had to play the ball down their end you know so we just get opportunities we we control field position we get opportunities we'll score points you know so we you know we're too good not to so it's was all about playing down there end um I think they kicked off to to us yeah anyway which which sets it up pretty well we the first crack of the ball and we kept them down their territory pretty well yeah yeah uh one has to pick it up and you touched on it but let's pick it up in a bit more detail now chriso Sullivan makes a call to kick a field goal this has been talked about and sometimes you even hear contradictory stories from the man who was on the inside there was there any commentary any discussion between you and Sul what actually happened in terms of that decision to kick that incredibly Brave field goal because that's a that's a hit Miss that's as simple as that but tell us about it no it it was a brave call I we we we were against it yeah we a scrum we're a scrum we're attacking actually voiced that you know what I mean yeah no no don't do it we give us the ball you know cuz we're in attacking position we're off a scrum off Gary jacking the ball we're on a bit of a role y um you know so yeah and every chance of course could then he argued yes I'm going to do it going to do it I said well [ __ ] do it that was that was it and he did it Topo he did the old tooke straight over it once a again it was was you know straight through yeah I I don't know whether it broke their back or not but certainly it certainly it certainly had an impact I you know I got to say when you when you kind of look at that in the C hard cold light of day that's exactly what it looked like and indeed that's what preceded in other words that they were Spirit was broken so it was important but then it really was dominant you know the Raiders inra time completely dominant yeah and that's 100 100 minutes of footy yeah you know a long season you know it it was the quickest quickest game of quickest game um we've ever played in really up to that stage and I suppose I have to touch on him since he's been in the news more recently and only a week or two back Steve Jackson um tell us a little bit about well a the player uh and and also be that particular run or your memory of it yeah he's a humble man Jacko honestly loves loves a Yan but he's a humble know that humble person he's come he's come off the bench and he made a difference he all his runs were were really good an extra time were fantastic for us and defensively was really good you know so it was a perfect Shey you know brought him at the perfect time he made it you know the perfect impact for us um but we'd never we've never have thought that he'd you know beat 10 try with them dragging off yeah I know you know so he's left us the next year because he's made a day for himself truly one of the great grand final tries so M just reflecting on a couple more times a couple more moments rather um about the 89 Grand Final in light of everything that's been talked about many many times over but in your looking back on your team in 1989 in that game is there one player that you feel has not received his just deserts that is to say was very much the quiet achiever in that game or not or was it sort of right and it's reasonable to say right across the board so you certainly couldn't pick any but is there anyone who perhaps hasn't quite you know in your opinion received I I don't internally no you know cuz we we value everyone yeah in the footy team you know so you know Dean Lance and those sort of guys you know they they get un they're unsung yeah hero you know Gary coins you know um but not not in our eyes you know we we know how important they are to the footy team and I played in The Backs I'm bigger than them you know so and I and I relied on them you know so relied on getting their job done so they always did always got their job done which is Ashley Gilberts you know all those sort of guys are teric terrific you know people and players yeah if we look at that and certainly it's reasonable to say that very reasonable and valid that a majority of commentators still look back and say that's the greatest Grand final of the modern era in terms of grand finals played since 1989 any that you would single out as being a rival orbe it perhaps not quite there yeah Bronx and cowboys yeah yeah that was a special it was a special Grand Final to I was actually there and enjoyed it okay okay yeah um yeah I mean it was you know the the Jonathan thirst and yeah very it did have I mean I've actually even attempted to weigh up tried to establish criteria for the two of them yeah it's it's different is in in a way it is that's true but you know I really of all the of all the the modern of the modern era of the games that you know 2015 stands out for me right right changing T entirely and we will return to to the teams of 990 briefly and certainly 94 um but you're I I wrote and I'd like you know we we changed Tekken certainly the chronology fits um your unique kangaroo playing record um of all of those tours and I think you are believe I WR itd say you're the only player to ever to play in go on for Kangaroo tours yeah still yeah um was the 1990 steart to meninga try um your most memorable moment or were there others uh that was my most relief moment of my career there's no doubt about that you know so um yeah I had the privilege of you know captaining the 99 tour um off the back of Wally obviously having the broken arm um a lot of controversy in that lost the first game you know at Wembley um and you know we're we're in a dog fight you know against the against the PS they had they had a while of a game that that they had a they had a very good footy team they Hanley and You Know Field I mean you're tempted to say that's team as they put out absolutely mean they didn't get enough recognition out of that series because they had a very good footing team and they beat us well you know at Wembley iny um and we we had to fight hard and it's possible to say that that try actually in a sense broke the you know what I mean made the third test that much well I mean it was it was it was even at the time you know so I think it was 10 all at the time so um you know and I know Ricky was so responded when he through the interet passed you know so and it was Gary Gary Bel that told him that yes we got plenty of time to go we we us to play We us to train the seven minute drill under shiny all the time right it was a seven minute drill so tell us a bit a bit about that well the seven minute drill is that we we'd practice seven minutes the last seven minutes of a game all the time if we're behind or in front how do we close a game down how do we how do we win a game um and that's you know we we were in that situation you we had about seven minutes to go five minutes to go in that final you know so in that in the uh at Old Trafford there and um and Ricky made the difference you know all I had to do was runick the right the right the right lane the right lane and yeah it was was more relief you know after the game we were just we were bugged you know it was it was a pretty tough match sure yeah and and we celebrated long and hard um but I thought I thought so that was that was significant that you know winning in winning that game but we we went to Ellen Road the next the third test 0 and we beat the poms 140 yeah and that's the first time the English have been held to to zero is that right okay there you go there you go yeah so that that was that was significant so I always think that you know that was relief yeah we got we got back on track and then the third game at Ellen road we played really well Lori had a Blinder yeah that particular day and um yeah so we we didn't win it comfortably we had to fight hard but we held them to nil which is you know a feet because internationally I don't think um even since then you know Australia's held English to zero yeah right so we're in that time period of the early 1990s and and of course you're in the representative games have got you know players around you from the club Etc there's so much happening there and such a great generation of players um if you had to compare and contrast the 1989 Grand Final winning team to the 1994 now I'm not saying not asking you to say which was the better team but rather to compare the two were there contrasting elements of those two teams if so what what would they have been I think 94 is an evolution out of 89 right in what sense well more the experiences you know yeah the experience the experienced team um um you know this the culture of the club you know the the inw workers of the club the way played under Shi was obviously you know he's he's went from that autocratic to that Democratic you know so the senior players had more input into it um again all the young kids were all locals you know the m and the fers and the cers absolutely you know or Ruben Wiki was you came around and you know Kenny Nas he played Juniors for us um I think it's a it's the evolution out of out of ' 89 I felt that um that we had to fight hard you through the semi-finals period in '94 um but you know the the Grand Final was for me it was my last game was it was sort of the cataly um because you don't win Grand finals like that sure you know it was a sort of culmination of you know everything I've been part of with the Raiders yeah and that sort of that come to fruition in in that in that game I remember having a conversation was after nor we just beat Norse yeah in the semi I just wanted everyone to just to concentrate on their own game you know their own preparation make sure they get that right and I thought our preparation was the best I've ever been involved with the R I think everyone everyone did experience in the room there everyone everyone did everything that as much as possible to to play really well and yeah yeah it was it was it was like an anticlimax in a way but it was a culmination of everything that I'd been part of with the Raiders yeah and to say to State again the pretty much the bleeding obvious the players wanting to send you out you know what I mean there was that that element in the back of their minds I didn't want I didn't I understood that I understood that but that's why I said that you know I just wanted them to really knuckle down prepare the best best that they they can play because at the end of the day if they play really well it's going to give us a chance of winning the footy game sure you know so and that's that was our attitude through the whole week um we we're much experienced in finals foot um that it was you know Shey held it held all the promotional activity you know still bare minimum um you know we trained like I said the best um we have for you know that in my memory you know yeah um yeah and we played extremely well I mean the things you could one could reflect on as I recall the kickoff went to Marty Bella yeah was that day yeah it wasn't their day was LE Marin I a great mate of M you know we've done a book together on on league but Lex a North Sydney great you know passionate supporter just has written about as we know the Mar bis you know that element of and he's a really good footballer too but uh you know it was you just you have those days yeah for sure and it yeah and it it doesn't those days for us doesn't you know to win it that well um that that that's once in a bloomer yeah yeah and a player like Terry L there's another one to have the kind of game he played in that which got you know he might have played two or three like that in his entire career but it was just one of those where nothing went right for him and then I as I recall you might have flattened him there kind of laid on REM more than one occasion but I do remember one still vially oh yeah I think he's forgiven me he didn't forgive me for a long period after that okay but I think he's forgiven me now yeah okay all good let's let's change te again um and and and and just ever so briefly your thoughts was 1993 because we're in that sort of Zone there the early 99 or the first part of the 1990s was 1993 The One That Got Away and what uh what happened I mean we know that obviously sticks broken leg what how did the you know how did what happened there that we that that that the wheels fell off for that only briefly as we know um did that surprise you did that surprise you um yeah we didn't quite adapt to it well enough um I know I don't know about surprise um I felt I felt that we could still win it um but we just didn't play well and whether whether not having rck there was it probably was um one of the major reason reason um and and players not believe we could win because Ricky wasn't there but we just couldn't get we just couldn't get a a mind right I don't think you know um I think I put me hand up to play 58y wasn't that happy with it yeah right um yeah just the way we played you know we didn't deserve to go all the way but the other thing about 93 is that you know obviously off the back of what happened in ' 91 with yeah with the S cap 92 was a rebuilding year um just the the enormity and success of what you know timy's and the the club has done over one one year yes we lost so many players staggering in in 91 and then um you know coming back in '92 we didn't do well but you see those those young fellas starting to to Blossom yeah and then 93 was you know um started you know come back we started to come back yeah and then obviously again '94 again was that Evolution out of all that yeah yeah getting young ones back in okay I mean changing again um all right then the the a few pretty much obvious questions but very interesting uh for for for people to be hearing your answers one is who would you say who are the best coaches you've had and why i' I've been lucky uh had Wayne dad Wayne yeah uh then sheny you know so yeah Club level so I've been fairly and Bob MCC Bob McCarthy for a period of time um learned off all of them y then I had bezo and and Arthur had rep rap footy and then I had Frank Stanton who was a hard task master master you know early in my career U so I've learned off all of them really um you know Wayne Wayne for me is um the Master yeah just because because of his the way he can get you know players up absolutely play their play to their ability um you know he's he's very I mean people say he has hasn't got much knowledge about the game he has he understands the game in depth but um he placed a lot of emphasis on the relationships and and under understanding people and getting the best out of people when it matters sheny sheni was a great architect um we I learned a lot of lot about from about foot off sheny right but also um almost the science of the game from Shen you know and then the leadership he gave me he gave me the leadership in ' 89 and um you I learned some really good lessons under under Tim around the leadership side of things you know cuz again you know I know I talked about you know I was captain of the house and didn't quite handle it um and you know when I first took over the capy of the the Raiders it's sort of it took me a while to to lead by example you know um have those conversations with say I'm a big fell and have a conversation with a front row about he needs to do his job and they just look turn around look at me and say well you're bigger than me you why don't you do it you know so you learn those lessons along the way so yes well I I had to I had to play well and this this the thing about about leadership and I learned from Shia I had to play I had to play and I had to play consistently well I had to be good every every game I Poss before I can even talk and and um byle influence other other over others you know you got to build that respect yeah yeah absolutely one I'm fascinated with this and you and I have touched on this back through the years and that is given the the the um uh not great success of your first Venture into coaching with the Raiders not bad years as we know and you know it's covered off you then go on to the most extraordinary coaching of the Queensland state of origin to admittedly with a lot of good players but and I'll get to that but Queensland state of origin and now the kangaroos I mean probably I think I'm using the word accurately unprecedented success certainly in Queens state of origin but then with the kangaroos do you feel your coaching skills um are better directed towards the elite players um I mean statistics would say that and if that's the case did you feel that you learned from the Raad years and brought that to bear in terms of your coaching of of of as I say elite players what have you done that's been what why have you been so successful at that level um well you create you create what I call resilient environment so the resilient environment is around um having a purpose having a common purpose um having standards and standards of behavior um standards around the your play play so you set you set you know kpis um you have a fun environment it's got to be fun um it's got to be um it's got to be collaborative yeah that's because that's that's who I'm working with I'm working with you know some of the smartest players in the game so you've got to be and you you got to you know your ego has got to be that big that you can accept help yeah you know what I mean so so I'm not I'm not flustered by by saying so Cameron Smith um I was talking to I was having a conversation with Cameron Smith at cam today and um this is what we should be doing I'm you know I believe should be do just bring my ego is not that that large that I can't accept help and I think that's my greatest strength I reckon is that I can I can bring a team together we can have a we can have a really resilient environment have a bit of fun but um we can it's collaborative so you know we have in I think the impact from being collaborative at the at the at the representative level means that they're taking control of of the plans and they've only so they they they they're strengthened by them actually you know having an input into what we do from the time you started coaching Queensland all the way through of course the kangaroo years right up to the present uh are there one or two players under your coaching who were um uh what does one say more fertile resources uh than others because of what they brought to bear well on the field but also in terms of the feedback to you and who who might they be well the the other thing you learn from rep footy is that they all come from different clubs different ways of doing things different ways of um you know strategy plans um and you you you learn a little bit from everyone really you know so um and that's what I mean by having this Open Door collaborative approach to things that they feel safe come up and have any AR about footy they feel they feel safe in a in a team environment to to um you know have some input about what they think you know and that's that's from That's from the Juniors you know the the less experience to the to the experienced um we don't we don't have meetings you know I've changed all that it's it's around it's around a chat having a chat because we're all in in the same boat we all want to win you know so we all want to you know we want to play the way uh everyone wants to play needs to understand of that so you know I'm not big into the groups I'm in the whole team stuff because um it represented football then anyone needs to understand each other's role in a matter of nine days yeah yeah cuz that when you got the elite players and I've heard one or two players talk about this in the context of your coaching is treating men as men you know what I mean that's been botched by coaches back through the past when they get that wrong so so I don't have to prove anything to anyone you know so um it's yeah it's having a this Open Door collaborative approach um no ego you know it's all around humility humility you know being confident in what you say and you know and I've been there done that you know so I've got this this respect I gu um when you walk through a door but then then you got to open your mouth and then you got to say something got to produce you got to produce as well you know so yeah it's uh the environment the environment um is very enjoyable I reckon last couple of questions um I started to put down the list of your accomplishments I was going to pick a couple of them up however in fact it was the list of your accomplishments and in both during your football career and after your football in career and of course including your coaching career is simply too long for me to single them out or even attempt to however what would you what do you feel in so many accomplishments that you've had in your career recognition Etc are there any any one or two that are more special than any others for a particular personal reasons or not um I think um the best thing has ever happened to me is the Mortal um and you know it was unexpected you and I didn't expect it um but what that says to me is that everyone everyone that has had influence in my life including my you know my family and uh the players that I played with the coaches that coached me the teams that I played in um is Justified you know so um they they supported me they believed in me um they helped me supported me um I think that's that's validation of my careers because I think it helps them validate their their in put into my life as well well just to to finish up one of the things and that I've so admired about you in public life after your playing career uh was the number of occasions when you're in the public eye and you talk about the camer Raiders football club and what it's meant to you um it's fair to say and I certainly wouldn't be naming names that once or twice with a few other players back through the past when they've been in the public eye haven't been quite so folsome in their their praise or indeed you know speaking from the heart but in terms of this club you know the Raiders club and indeed your role in that club what has it meant to you over you know from really from the time you joined up in in in late 85 all the way through to the presid what is it that's special and why is it that you do keep singling out those years then you know both playing and indeed coaching and indeed life beyond that is so special to you um well my Heart and souls here my blood's here my green blood is here you know so you know once a Raider always a Raider and that's I know Ricky's got that that mentality as well you know so um cra's been really great to me I still live here you know it's it's an unsung hero CRA and and and um you know I've I've sort of nearly grown up here I've spent more time here in camra have in Queensland you know so yeah it's a special place and um and I'm damn loyal or this loyalty trait that you know not I'm not gonna yeah I mean camera's always going to be you know in my heart it's so lovely to hear that I mean having just recently interviewed Alan Tong uh who had words rather similar coming from a slightly different place but the same kinds of words minger it's been a special privilege for me to be interviewing you today and of course for this interview to take its place in the bleeding green interviews camber Raiders respect and honor the traditional custodians of the land and pay our respects to their Elders past present and future we acknowledge the stories traditions and living cultures of Aboriginal and torist straight Islander peoples on the land we meet gather and play [Music] on 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