[Applause] [Music] [Applause] hello I'm un Levy of Channel 12 in Tel Aviv and I'm Jonathan Friedland of the guardian in London and we are Unholy to juice on the news from keset podcast how are you feeling Jonathan we left you well I'm a little better I'm glad to tell you I'm a little better I am still unbelievable testing positive it's like some kind of weird marathon where I'm into day 11 or something or day 10 it's still testing positive which means I'm still complying with the rules even though the government has actually dropped the rules I'm still complying with them and therefore it's feel feeling like some perennial isolation but I'm in good company I mean BB Nano now has CO as well so it's not just me if I I ask I feel as if I have comrades in my isolation yes it is wholly a coincidence before you construct Theory how I've infected the former prime minister so no it's um and and it's not just him or me I've noticed it is a lot of people and there is a spike um uh that is going on in this country there are definitely more cases it's just not really on the news anymore for reasons we know there was a strange thing where the restrictions in in England not in the UK but in England were restricted at were lifted at midnight 01 on Thursday the 24th of February and at 500 a.m. that same day so less than 5 hours later the Russian military invaded Ukraine and people have made the point that Boris Johnson had about four and a half hours off between covid and then Ukraine um so now obviously all eyes are massively on Ukraine and what big developments this week which I found perversely vindicating of the approach you and I have followed because you and I talking about Ukraine inevitably because of the nature of this podcast have talked about what it means and what it feels like and and how it's received by Jews and Israelis and you know some may some may have thought that was a bit kind of you know parochial or even narcissistic to make it about us but developments this week Yi have suggested that it's not just us who think Israel have a role in this story no I mean there are two things I think we should mention uh this week that are very relevant to Israel and of course um kind of increasingly became as you said an international topic one of them is the fact that naftali Bennett the're relatively inexperienced Israeli Prime Minister has been shuttling between right he this this is a story of broken Saturday he's an observant Jew he broke the Sabbath to a shuttle between uh a Moscow meeting with Putin and then meeting with Olaf Schultz the German Chancellor you know trying to mediate or be a mediator uh in this story um and acting as a as a as a go between this is a very interesting story Jonathan you know aren't you worried that the the that Putin is using you as sort of a cover for legitimacy while he's still attacking Ukraine you know things like that and on the other hand the advantage for him is first of all he could keep a little bit longer this sort of what we talked about a lot in this program isra Israel's neutrality which is beginning to annoy a lot of people outside Israel and inside Israel as well and he can St still say look I I have to be neutral because I'm trying to mediate we talked about how Israel needs to on the one hand his alliances us and Ukraine on the other hand of course we are entangled with Russia on the Syrian border the other thing that's an advantage for for neali bennon is internal politics right he is stepping up he looks like this it's the Optics of him looking as this leader on the international stage trying to make uh uh some sort of broker some sort of ceasefire pce um I have to tell you that on the competing Channel this week I'm very magnanimous towards competition there was a poll that came out and the Israeli public is very supportive of what Bennett is trying to do the amazing thing about the poll is that it also asked who do you think is fit to be prime minister Bennett's people were very pleased by the fact that Bennett got 20% thus Landing him improving his situation Landing him not in the third place but in the second place second of Po of course to Benjamin Netanyahu getting 50% on the question who do you prefer to be prime who do you think think is fit to be prime minister all this this Jonathan please take into consideration Bennett is the prime minister I mean and he's getting 20% he's now TW he's now in second place as I said his AIDS are very happy about this poll so again this all connects to him trying to be it I want to say Elder Statesman which is funny is someone who's shy of two weeks shy of his 50th birthday but trying to be sort of this leader uh and taking his place among among the other leaders around the world I I was thinking it struck me as being one the very rare if not perhaps the very first case where Israel had been used as an intermediary in somebody else's conflict I just don't know if that's ever happened before I mean an Israeli Prime Minister has been on the world stage but usually because Israel is locked in its own conflict either fighting a war or involved in peace talks but the idea of Israel as the broker between others I don't know whether that's ever happened before it seems uh pretty extraordinary but yeah that will do things for his standing and does make you know I'm I'm not surprised that his polling has made uh enabled him and just when you mention about public opinion I'm interest I know about the pressure outside Israel coming from Vladimir zalinski on down pressuring Israel to take a stand here rather than being on the fence but inside Israel itself I'm I'm fascinated to know obviously there are a lot of Russian born Israelis or Israelis of Russian Heritage are they rooting for Russia in this and who are the Israelis who are saying no let's back Ukraine more strongly first of all there's a a very there is internal a lot of internal criticism about the fact that Israel is sitting on the fence a lot of people who are being very supportive of Ukraine you had pictures of people W you have people walking around with Ukrainian Flags there's an interesting thing you said zalinsky is being specific about Israel he is he actually said in this impromptu um press conference he gave last week he said I saw pictures of his Israel is wrapped in the Ukrainian flag I don't feel like the Israeli leader is wrapped in the Ukrainian flag that it means to him I mean you look at him and you say the whole West is standing by you people are sending you weapons they're supporting you there are sanctions against Russia but he cares about what Israel is doing and he's deeply I it feels like he's really exasperated by what Israel is doing and the story that came out this week as well that we should talk about mention is Barack rid Israeli journalist Barack rid story about zalinsky wanting to speak in front of the Israeli Parliament on a zoom call of course not coming here and and speaking but that uh the knesset uh the the speaker of the knesset Miki Levy tried to explain that the knesset is now in recess and there are Renovations in the the main uh Hall so maybe he can speak to the uh you know to the members of knesset by a zoom conversation individually the ukrainians got very upset and said no this became huge story and I think more than anything it kind of is indicative of just how angry the ukrainians are at uh at Israelis I would just and this is of course me kidding but I'm just saying if you really want to see the Israeli government freak out I think zilinski should try saying that he wants to have an Israeli citizenship make aiyah under the law of return and then see what the Israelis try to do uh but that's just a joke um obviously the ukrainians are quite upset that would be the pr who to end all prus the man who is the world's most admired person right now if he was to decide to become a citizen of Israel I don't think I think the pr and hasbara Community could stand down their work would be done now this is the right moment to introduce our very special guest an apple bound he has been just essential reading throughout this whole crisis as listeners will know she's a star writer at the Atlantic but a real expert on Eastern Europe and particularly Ukraine sh it's an absolutely brilliant book called red famine Stalin's war on Ukraine author of Iron Curtain the crushing of Eastern Europe so telling us that that is nothing new and most recently Twilight of democracy the seductive law of authoritarianism and apple I'm great to have you on on holy I thought we should just Dive Right In and put this question to you there are two views emerging really just crudely defined I mean on the one hand Joe Biden and a whole lot of world leaders saying uh we just cannot take the risk of entangling militarily with a nuclear power and therefore there will be no direct military confrontation of Vladimir Putin and then on the other hand which I'm going to call the Gary casparo view associated with the uh great chess Grandmaster who says look dictators only stop when they're stopped and that means by four so between those two broadly defined views Biden and Kasparov uh and where do you stand so I probably lean further towards Gary um I believe that we could do more um it's important to understand that what we are doing we are arming the ukrainians we're giving them anti-tank weapons uh we're giving them intelligence um we are uh giving them humanit Arian Aid and financial aid of of various different kinds um we are already supporting them this is already a proxy war um I think the difficulty is that we haven't had a proxy war in a long time um it's you know I think you have to go back to Afghanistan in the 1980s and nobody really knows what the rules are and in particular nobody knows what the rules are with Putin in power rather than a Soviet poit Bureau with which we familiar and whose red lines we understood a little bit better I do think that we could give the ukrainians planes I think that we could be doing more in terms of teasing the Russians um you know I don't know why we're not doing major military exercises in the Baltic Sea right now I don't know why we aren't um uh you know drawing Russian troops away from this area in in more creative ways you know right now as a as a as a political science professor said to me yesterday you know Putin has the escalatory um you know momentum behind him I don't know why we've allowed that to happen why is he dictating the terms of this conflict um why don't we scare him about what we might do I do understand the fears of Biden and everybody else and and and mccr and Schulz and Johnson I understand that people don't want a nuclear war and I understand that people don't really know what would provoke one there isn't a rule book that will tell us but I I do agree that allowing Ukraine to be destroyed physically destroyed and allowing and we have 1 and a half million refugees already creating 2 million refugees 5 million refugees 10 million refugees will be so catastrophic for Europe and for Ukraine um that I don't think we can allow that to happen um and so I think I what I'm hoping is that in the next few days we become more creative in what we're doing for the ukrainians that is the the side of the West and but I I want to kind of go back to the side of of Putin and I think it is pretty clear that we could say that he has miscalculated right I mean he underestimated the Ukrainian resistance I think he underestimated the West's resolve and he probably thought his army was better prepared for this what does that make a man like him do does it make him sort of increase the ferocity of the odds slaught or the other way around push the braks um so yes you're absolutely right he completely miscalculated he knows very little about modern Ukraine he hasn't been there he doesn't talk to anybody there nobody around him does either he got his ideas from Ukraine from some very strange old history books or maybe from some I can't even imagine what kind of scholar he his his versions of Ukrainian history are so bizar that they're they're hard to understand um and he did not expect Ukrainian resistance and he also didn't expect the Western response that there's been so stipulate that although the Western response is perhaps not enough and not creative enough it's more certainly than the Russians expected um the quality and quantity of the weapons that have been given to Ukraine the amount of intelligence given to Ukraine is more um than he thought so far we know what his first response was so his first response to not succeeding in 48 hours which was the original plan is to bombard and Destroy Ukrainian cities and so what we're watching now is pure violence uh the Ukrainian Army is able to fight the Russian army on the ground so when they do try to advance they are pushed back what the Ukrainian Army is not able to do is to stop bombs and missiles raining from the sky that's why the ukrainians keep talking about a no fly zone because that's the thing that they can't stop um and so Putin is using that air advantage to literally destroy cities I mean he's he now appears to be targeting hospitals this is something that he did in Syria um so we shouldn't be surprised by it and he's trying to intimidate the population and as I said perhaps to create refugees on purpose that's the current game plan and that could get worse if he you know right now it's a handful of Eastern Ukrainian cities um next could be Kiev um there's talk of bombing Odessa which would be a real I mean both Kiev and Odessa would be terrible crimes um not just against people who live there but against history and architecture and culture um but this isn't somebody who cares about that um so yes I do think it could get worse um he has been very clear and he continues to repeat the idea that his goal is not just I don't know creating a land bridge from Crimea to Russia but actually conquering and controlling Ukraine he wants a puppet government he wants some some kind of weak government in Kiev that he can direct and control uh and he said that several times he said it to mccon a few days ago he hasn't yet lowered his expectations um and so yes it could be it could get more dangerous when you see these images out of Russia Russian apparent support for what Putin's doing but also this particular phenomenon we've seen of these crowds of young people with the Zed the Z symbol doing a kind of right arm salute there are some very uncomfortable Echoes In Those images do you think the parallel is now getting too unmistakable to be ignored I think he's doing that on purpose um you know I I I think the well first of all of the odd things about the support for the war is how orchestrated it is I mean we don't see there aren't spontaneous crowds you know cheering on the troops there's nothing like that um and although we can't really do polling in Russia anymore the groups that have tried nal's organization the the disend organization has some methods of doing online polling um and they think that fear and anxiety about the war is increasing over the last few days so so we're not seeing any spontaneous support what we're seeing are these orchestrated State planned videos and organized you know displays of you know youth Salud doing the Hitler salute and um wearing Z's on their chest instead of swas stias yeah I think that's deliberate I think that's an intimidation tactic look how united we are um you know we are and he's trying to remind people of the worst episodes in European history so that we're more afraid of him and he's doing that even as he's meanwhile saying that KV is in the hands of Neo nais and that he he's the guy is densifying yes I mean I think one of the goals and this has been brilliantly been explained by my friend Peter panv who's a great expert in Russian propaganda one of the goals is to take the horror away from the word Nazi and so all of the rules and norms and mantras that we created after the second world war you know never again um you know we've learned the lessons of History he wants to undermine all of that and say that's all rub that's all fake you know I'm going to destroy that I'm going to wreck it with um you know both with this war which is a which is an unprovoked um you know war in which he's already using genocidal language about wiping the ukrainians off the map that kind of thing something very close to saying final Solutions you know we need a final solution for the Ukrainian problem he's doing I think all that is deliberate you know he's trying to undermine those um those Traditions that have developed in Europe in particular and you know Europe and the US and Israel over the last several decades I think it's deliberate you know I I have to kind of as the Israeli in this conversation pull us to the issue of of the Israeli Prime Minister naali benett trying to mediate and when you take into consideration just how um let's say more experienced Putin is is that in any way something that can be effective and when you listen to what at least the Israelis are saying of of what Putin has told the Israeli Prime Minister which is I know where zalinski is but I don't want to hurt him and deliberately I'm not hurting him um what do you make of all this of all these attempts by the Israeli government to to try and mediate something here it is true that Israel because of the Russian Ukrainian population in the country has links and even just linguistic skills that other governments don't have and so I don't think it's illegitimate for Bennett to try and negotiate or to try and help a problem that actually may have a effect on a lot of Israelis who are connected to that part of the world there's a lot of business connections as well you know in some ways he's a more he is more argument to be a negotiator than some European leaders who who don't have those kinds of connections do what I don't know and maybe you can answer this better than me is whether he has the understanding of Putin and putinism that are necessary to solve this I mean um you know Putin has a long history of lying during negotiation ations and the foreign minister of of Russia um a few hours ago said we're not at war in Ukraine you know of course we're not going to invade any other countries we haven't invaded Ukraine either um and so they're able to lie in a way that I think other people find shocking and startling even people who've been dealing with Middle Eastern politics which is you know equ equally complex you know whether he's capable of understanding that you know any negotiation is going to be part of the war in other words Putin may very well seek to use a negotiation to get the ukrainians to stop fighting in order to then Advance further and so I would just hope that Bennett has the the Israeli Prime Minister has the you know is able to recognize what's going on and does isn't taken in by something I mean I don't think the ukrainians are going to be taken in so I don't think that's a problem but I don't mind any anybody who has some inside track or is able to speak to either side in a special way I didn't mind them intervening I mean I wouldn't um I don't object to it I just just hope that nobody is naive enough to think that they can solve it you know just following that up a bit when David Remick was on this podcast two or three weeks ago he slightly teased us for finding the kind of the local angle the parochial interest here and yet there is a sort of the Israeli Dimension has become obvious with naali Bennett but even jewishly it's noticeable that Vladimir zilinski made this plea to the Jews of the world to take a stand on this so so well you say of course so so tell us about that what is the responsibility if there is one as you see it that Jews have in terms of this story as it's unfolding so I would I would add before saying before answering that I would say zalinski also made a really um beautiful speech after the bombing of a cathedral in K and talked about the significance for Christians around the world so so it's it's not only Jews but you know we are watching a conflict between an open Society where a Jew can be elected president where the definition of nationalism and patriotism is a Civic definition you know you are Ukrainian in Ukraine because you are loyal to the state and because you believe in democracy and you believe in the political system it is not an ethnically defined national state um I think that may come from a lot for may exist for a lot of reasons partly it's because you have both ukrainians and Russians or Ukrainian speakers and Russian speakers inside the country and so the they have a broader almost more American idea of national identity than almost anybody else in the region does and they are fighting against a state which is a closed society and an autocracy they're not locking up Jews at the moment but they could easily in the future um right now they lock up Jehovah's Witnesses they persecute gay people there's a contrast between the two kinds of societies one in which Jews and minorities and other people who don't fit into an ethnic majority can Thrive and live and you know be leaders and be cultural leaders and there are plenty of Jews and other parts of Ukrainian society as well um and one in which minorities of all kinds will always be under threat um and so I think um any Jews who are watching this should understand that that's one of the things that this contest is about it's about two definitions of what we mean by national identity I don't think anybody would have guessed in 1991 that Ukraine would be the post-soviet state that would develop this Civic National identity as opposed to an ethnic nationalist identity um but it did I I talked about this with a Ukrainian history Professor s ploh is really one of the great historians of Ukraine and he said you know the funny thing is nobody ever told the ukrainians what Civic nationalism is it wasn't like it was on the ballot or anyone ever explained it or there were any lessons in it it's just automatically what they chose over the last um couple of decades partly in opposition to Russia because they saw the way that Russia was developing and wanted Ukraine not to be like that um and so they've chosen what they think of as a European identity and a European way of being and that's to them is a you know multiethnic multinational however you want to describe it form of patriotism it does seem like the West has found its sense of purpose again I mean that that there's cooperation and and and even intelligence that was very accurate on Putin's plan and as someone who's written so much about you know autocrats and memorably also that in Atlantic the bad guys are winning is there any cause for optimism does it make you a little bit optimistic so I am cautiously optimistic um partly because I see how the zalinsky speeches and the actions of the ukrainians have really inspired people in the west and I think people do understand that this is a fight for democracy and an open Society you know somehow we'd allowed the idea that democracy is something you can really fight for and really care about to slip away from us and I think that is what people are seeing and admiring all across Europe and the United States I I am cheered by that I am cheered by the amount of support that Ukraine is getting um by the military support by the huge humanitarian support you know I know I mean actually my whole email inbox is full of fundraising invitations and um you know Charities to donate to and almost everybody I know is now doing something for the ukrainians um and so I I I you know and that's not coming from the government I mean those are Grassroots I see that and I feel that and I'm cheered by it I am still worried I'm still worried that there could be bad outcomes and that you know Ukraine could lose um or that the outcome would be some uncomfortable and unhappy negotiation which you know just keeps the the unstable situation more unstable um and I really do feel that the I'm not sure that the leaders of the West have yet understood that we have to win we have to win this war um and it's very important for the future of West the west and the safety of NATO um that we win and partly the reason people will not to that and agree with that is that the there's a big principle at stake which is against the notion that you can seize territory and or change borders by force that that's a fundamental principle and I just wonder about the long-term effects of the whole world uniting to reassert that principle obviously ly before anybody writes in I know that the circumstances of 1967 were wholly different in every way from what we're seeing now but is it possible that after this the world will have less tolerance of Israel being an occupier of the West Bank because of it's made this view now that you do not alter borders by force in war and conquest and so on that is very hard for me to say I mean I suppose in one way Israel's very lucky because Israel has now completely disappeared from all front pages no one's going to talk about it for a long time so so it's um lucky you I mean I you know that's not so good for some other places you know you know the plight of the Afghans hasn't really changed or improved thanks to this war but that's kind of off the um off the agenda as well um but you know I mean it may be that a lot of things look retrospectively worse now um the Israeli occupation um the US war in Iraq um quite a number of events in the last several decades will might get reexamined in the light of this catastrophe yes it's possible I do want to continue that and say I mean obviously the whole world this is happening in an open air Auditorium the whole world is looking at what Russia is doing what Ukraine is doing and what the response is does that you know it it proves okay we could you should take dictators and autocrats at their world you should you word you should stand up to them early what does that mean about other uh actors in in the world what does that mean about China what does that mean about Iran does it have any it's a great question actually it relates back to Israel as well because some of the worst dictatorships in the world are in the Middle East and some of them are us allies I'm thinking of Saudi Arabia in particular there is certainly a way in which this war and the way that Putin is fighting it is is intimately and closely related to the style of government that he has created I mean he would not be able to pursue a war like like this if if he was a different kind of leader I mean the what we've already discussed the fact that he didn't understand what he was doing and where he was going that's to because he's an isolated autocrat who has only yes men around him the fact that he's now bombarding cities and lying about it that's you know that's also made possible by the political system that he functions in um and that means that you know other autocracies would be capable of the same we need to be sanguin about that and understand it it is also clearly the case that the modern autocracies now work together and collaborate with one another and cooperate with one another even when they have nothing in common ideologically so this isn't this isn't the old Cold War and there's no Warsaw packed but you know Russia and China and Venezuela and belus um and Iran do cooperate in in lots of ways I mean they help one another get around sanctions they the state companies from one country invest in the state companies of the other and the state companies are of course owned by um the rulers um you know the Chinese sell sell their surveillance technology to everybody they help keep one another in power and they're interested in keeping one another in power um and so absolutely the Chinese and the other dictatorships in the world are watching what's going on and the Western response is you know is something that they're going to remember and so I'm sure the Chinese are watching this with some interest and they will be paying a lot of attention to how it comes out I'm wondering how much that we can how much confidence we can have the economic sanctions that you just referred to can work given that Vladimir Putin doesn't care if his own people suffer and even in terms of the oligarchs and the pressure on them and a new round of sanctions announced just now in London those oligarchs are not going to turn on Putin either because they depend even for the P slice of the pie they've got they still depend on him in that case given both those things does economic pressure even work in this sort of situation so as I understand that one of the goals of economic pressure is also to make Russia's Army dysfunctional if the Russians can't import spare parts then at some point their oil wells are going to not function if they aren't earning any money um from trade then at some point they won't be able to to to fund their army the block on All Imports is at some point going to have an effect on food Security in Russia because they right now the the Russians um you know export oil and import most other things you know the war is happening very fast and this will take some weeks or months but I think the hope is that eventually I mean it's not so much that we think it will get Putin out of power it's that you know Russia simply won't be able to function and they won't be able to mount an army and they won't be able to invade Ukraine or occupy Ukraine or whatever it is they want to do as I say my fear is that it's just too slow it will take too much time for that to happen if if indeed that can even happen and you know one of the other ities about particularly these sanctions which include one or two elements that have never been tried before in particular this freezing of Russian foreign reserves that's never been done to a country that's that's as integrated into the world economy as Russia is and what the knock on side effects of that are going to be are very you know we just don't know I mean somebody said to me what you know the Egyptians import all of their wheat from Ukraine and Russia if you had a food shortage in Egypt you know you I can you know you can imagine bread rice in Cairo um because of this war and you begin to add up all of the weird KnockOn things that could happen um I don't think we really know how they're going to how they're going to work but um you know we'll see I guess we could keep listening to you all day but you don't have that kind of time an apple bam thanks so much thanks so much for coming on on holy thank you it was a pleasure to speak to you both thank you than thank you very much you know you said a Jonathan I could listen to her for another hour or two I what struck me is what she said about the West has to win this war like it's not enough to just stop it it has to win and that is you know it's it's a tall order it it it definitely is but you can see why she says it because of this point of principle that's at stake that and this is the Gary Kasparov position that you have to stop a dictator and just you know briefly causing a dictator is not enough because they will come back for more and in a way we've already seen that because he did crime here in 2014 and has come back for more now so there's a real principle here which has to be defeated and yet what I also I thought and I I I I I'm exactly the same on this one I thought it was very noticeable that on the opening dilemma this predicament of if you do military action directly you risk a nuclear war but if you don't you risk him just continuing to kill and kill and kill there is no easy answer to that you could see that yes she talked about being creative maybe there are other things that could be done but there isn't a straightforward answer to that and I noticed that a lot of very thoughtful people around the world and they don't get much more thoughtful or well-informed than an appleb on this topic they really are wrestling with this conundrum it isn't um it isn't straightforward at all there are two really unpalatable options here which is risking a nuclear war to stop him or allowing him to carry on I mean these are not uh welcome choices by any means but the world uh does not stop and there are other things going on and um yeah uh you know especially in your part of the world I find it amazing that they that the that you know we talked the other day about the Iran track and that there are still talks going on and potentially even a breakthrough even with Russia and the United States involved but there's other things going on in the region so why don't you fill us in yeah sure and they're all related I think they're all associated with the notion that countries around the world are kind of recalibrating their alliances right in in light of this uh what is happening in in Ukraine um and so I want to talk a little bit just a little bit about the Israel turkey uh rapo which is going on this week uh president Herzog of Israel became the first Israeli leader to visit Turkey uh States visit since 2008 and really you see the Turkish president on all the pomp in circumstance you havea the Israeli National Anthem playing in Anora you have those flags flying side by side everything like going all the the whole nine yards of the pump in circumstance he's he's hosting Herzog in his 1,100 room Palace in Anora which always makes you wonder I know that we're we're warming up relations with turkey and I'm the Israeli journalist but it makes you wonder what uh what happens if you have 1,100 and one guest staying over you know it's just you're going to have to bunk up guys we're a bit short space what do you do with such a huge okay never mind but so um so you know obviously we have to say and pause on this for a minute the relationship between Israel and Turkey ever since Elan took charge has known more Downs than UPS uh he has called Israel a murderer of children and said that we're a terrorist state of course the lowest point of our relationship is the maavi marara story Israel rated a a Turkish flotilla on its way to Gaza there were armed activists uh and there was a struggle between them and the Israeli Army there were nine killed and 10 Israeli soldiers wounded Israel had to apologize for this this is in 2010 but relationships really didn't um uh bounce back from that so the question here is Jonathan what happened to the Turkish president to make him change his mind or a little bit of his mind at least um Visa Israel the answer James car was right on the money on that mind my pun and that is always the economy the uh Turkish economy is in shambles the more erdogan is becoming a Tighter autocrat and this these things are are connected in my opinion the economies in shambles there's a new ish Administration in Washington that's watching him closely and he feels like he can reach out to Israel there's also of course the issue of national g natural gas involved um stop me when this is becoming boring but I think that that is you know that is what is going on on the Turkish side uh on the Israeli side I would point out that uh president Herzog is becoming this sort of he wants to become this player on the international stage we talked about Bennett Herzog as well they're very well coordinated not exactly something to be taken for granted in relationships between Israeli Prime Ministers and Israeli presidents um and this also begs the question of course what are his plans when he uh ends his tenure as president but uh that is of course in the future so much going on I mean it just does show you that this Ukraine crisis is to to paraphrase Tony Blair after 9/11 it is shaking up the kaleidoscope and everything is looking very different because you have this for one thing anchor playing the role of host for these talks turkey is was the venue for the talks between the Ukrainian and Russian foreign ministers they went to Turkey for those conversations but you know turkey has played a role too it's supplying drones to Ukraine so it hasn't completely um stayed on the on the fence um it just shows you the way all these alliances everything is going to look very very different uh afterwards but the notion of Israel having this sort of diplomatic uh flourish over this crisis and naali Men it as mediator and as you say Herzog um playing this very interesting role that the Israeli president can play of a sort of unofficial or semi-official Diplomat it's all going on um we have some uh Awards to hand out as always uh on this show and I think you are going to kick us off with a huta award I was I was I don't know if you've noticed uh Jonathan that it is been uh it is international women's day this week yes of course I noticed very much so you're I'm I feel that you're walking a very thin you feel like you're walking a thin line now what I wanted to say is look um obviously this is a day that started out in the beginning of the 20th century socialist movements and suffrage movements um and then it was officially adopted by the UN in 1977 all very important this is an important day to talk about important issues I just don't understand and I never do what does the world do with the rest of the 364 days it has a year I mean look at the world we live in it's 2022 women are suffering from violence sexual violence sex trafficking even in countries that are supposedly Western countries there is you know pay Gap and not enough women in leadership and like where are we and why are you giving us a day I mean women are 49.6% of the population we hold up Humanity don't give us a day like deal with these issues every day of every year and stop I don't want to say patronizing us with International women's day because obviously again there are very important organizations doing very important things on this day and on other days I'm just saying guys fix the situation you broke and don't do it only on one day in March did I give you a really long rant did I just do that I no but I think there's it's a very neat point which is you gave us a whole day thanks guys your whole 24 hours just for you um but we've got the rest okay so you know um I wanted to give a mench award um to something completely different I mean in a way and when it came when the news broke it was such a respite from everything else cuzz I woke up early on that morning I think it was the Wednesday morning and you know of course that Doom scrolling impulse you reach for your phone to find out what Horrors the night has brought and instead there was a tweet from um the very much admired uh historian come sort of action Adventurer Dan snow who has been on board an expedition to the Antarctica and he just tweeted to say endurance has been found and what he was talking about was this search which was described as the most challenging shipwreck search ever and that was to find endurance the ship that erish Shackleton the great Explorer uh took in his bid to uh chart the South Pole and to reach the South Pole uh it sank um over a hundred years ago and uh there was a the ship wreck had never been found and they found it three just over 3,000 M below the surface uh there it was and it looked in the photographs so pristine and beautiful because it turns out that the there aren't these sort of wood munching bacteria or creatures or organisms uh in that part of the Antarctic and so the waters were look completely they apparently they look like clear mineral water distilled water perfectly clear and you could see the sign of the ship endurance and the you can actually see the kind of Captain's wheel um on the I don't know ship words is it St I don't know bow I should know that shouldn't I I don't know it's like Jews and trees and birds and shipw I'm afraid I don't have the vocabulary for that um but you know but if you saw it you would know what I mean um it looks uh absolutely stunning and here's the mench bit of it um when Dan snow tweeted this he said um the wreck is in an astonishing state of preservation for all the reasons I said nothing has been touched nothing was touched on the nothing retrieved it was surveyed using the latest tools its position confirmed it is protected by the Antarctic treaty and nor did we wish to tamper with it so they didn't lay a finger on it all they wanted to do was to know where it is Mark the Spot on the uh maps of of the of Antarctica and the Antarctic ocean and they've done that and they've done it without any gain apparently there was an an an anonymous donor who funded it to the tune of 10 million um but they uh they got nothing material from it just the knowledge that that's where it is and these wonderful images so I think mentioned the week to every the crew of the endurance 2022 Mission uh and particularly for leaving it exactly as they found it a wonderful mystery resolved the headline I take from all of this is that you said Jonathan frin says I don't have the vocabulary this is what I take I'm kidding I'm kidding I think that this is a perfect mench award and it's a mench Upon A mench because Shackleton himself is such a mench and you're such a mench for choosing this cuz you know I love these stories so I mean this is perfect it's perfect and uh and we are winding up this conversation we are we've done our Awards yeah we've done our Awards and we obviously if you are enjoying it please subscribe and rate and spread the love for Unholy and who are we thanking your need um we are thanking leor Friedman and romik and om primat Andel for original music and Jonathan you won't escape this you will see me next week I'm looking forward to you need see you then [Music]