John Heilemann

[Music] [Music] hey everybody welcome into the back room I'm Andy ostroy before I was elected as vice president before I was elected as United States Senator I was the elected attorney general as I've mentioned of California before that I was a courtroom prosecutor in those roles I took on perpetrators of all kinds [Applause] Predators who Abused women frauders who ripped off consumers cheaters who broke the rules for their own gain so hear me when I say I know Donald Trump's type so that was vice president KLA Harris out on the campaign Trail sounding fantastic we are going to talk about all of that in just a moment we have John Hilman today very excited about that first time guest we're going to get to John in a second but first thank you for tuning in we appreciate you listening and we'd love to hear your comments so email us at backroom Andy gmail.com and or post on our social media and we'll read some feedback next time and if you like the podcast please rate and review and follow or subscribe and you'll be notified every time we post a new episode episode so here's some feedback we received this week we got a lot of correspondents on our conversation with uh original Beatles drummer Pete best uh my old Pal Jesse cell writes what a great person to interview I've heard clips of him being interviewed on this subject in the past he had to have had perseverance to survive this I guess fate played a hand it certainly did Robin Eileen Bernstein writes as a drummer I definitely want to listen to this one Susan pet writes wow I'm so excited love the Beatles Marcel writes what a great interview and oh my God so excited for you you did a great job keeping your cool Marcela I didn't I give all the credit to the diaper I was wearing and Michael Fano writes no Ringo no Beatles same with the who no Keith no who a come on come on I love Ringo my dog's name is Ringo but without Pete best there was no first album you know in my opinion so got to give the man the credit that deserves and don't forget stick around to the end for another episode of Just Jeff well before we begin today I would just like to lead the congregation in the back room to a little Kum my Lord k k my Lord Kum Kum Lord Oh [Music] Lord that's my outro and uh we have Harmony once again not just in America but more importantly in the back room we are unified we are together come on people now smile on your brother everybody get together try to love and that's what it's like now in the Democratic party we're all coming together we're all trying to love one another and uh it's kind of great I don't think we're trying we're not I think we genuinely are we're euphoric for [ __ ] sake mm this's Euphoria think about where we were last week on the ledge Panic despair depression frustration curled up in a fetal position in bed speak to yourself uh you know some of us were you know still in kind of Camp Biden and other people were not in Camp Biden there was three weeks of fighting and it got ugly and it was cannibalistic and you know of course mdy was all wrong and um but now here we are it's a new day a week later and uh I am very happy very happy to say that I was wrong that my worst fears uh of chaos that would ensue if Joe Biden were to step down uh never materialized yeah it was actually a pretty seamless Flawless kind of transition to kamla Harris vice president vice president for those of you out there who think she's a Dei hire let me say once again vice president former US senator former California attorney general former San Francisco District Attorney kamla Harris uh is just off and running it's kind of really inspirational to watch yes uh I couldn't be more excited in fact I was texting with uh a woman yesterday evening who is a big donor and she was on a call with 150,000 other women they raised a million dollars in 30 minutes and this has been a repeat of what happened last week with uh 44,000 uh black women and they're going to try and do this again possibly every Sunday um the whole event I was trying to think of an analogy for what happened and I actually had to go back to 1984 uh the Ridley Scott commercial that introduced the Apple Macintosh where you had this industrial gray tone setting of all of these people looking at Big Brother and then you had this heroin come in with a sledgehammer and smash the screen and that is a metaphor for what we're seeing right now and I'm ecstatic obviously there's a lot of work to come but we are on the right path and enthusiasm is off the charts in every measurement that you can make from volunteerism from fundraising from youth the youth coming out and registering under 3700% increase in registering it's um you know it's as good as we could have hoped given where we were a couple of weeks ago I'd like to hop on and women are carrying this but right after the 44,000 women fundraised 30,000 African-American SL black men raised over a million dollars as well yeah it's um intoxicating you know and I think there's a really tough road ahead but I am very happy right now I'm very happy she's transcending the moment in a way it's like the timing is right I feel something in my gut that I like to feel that this is a critical moment in our history as a nation and she's perhaps the right person at the right time and that's really well said um and it it made me really excited and happy and for the first time actually hopeful when my younger son who's 22 who um he would have voted for Biden but he wasn't happy about it he just wasn't interested and he's not a political creature but now he's really energized he's following the polls he's you know he's you know on Twitter he's all in and that's kind of what I was hoping for I me one of the first polls that has come out it's an axios poll and it shows that Harris has like a 20p point margin with uh 18 to 34 and um Biden had been down to like six points so she she's getting those numbers back at least at this point to where they were for Biden in 2020 people still need to have get out and vote right you can be enthusiastic but are you going to go to the polls I certainly hope so yeah I mean I think the enthusiasm in terms of getting out the vote is obviously one of the most important things you can have and this is what we have to do we have to think different and that's why we were able to come together and thank goodness we were because obviously everyone was afraid when this happened that there'd be some crazy convention thing and everybody be going crazy wanting to get a nomination but it didn't happen coalescing around camela is really quite astounding from a historical perspective agree yeah agree and that's the inspiring part is to see like okay okay maybe Democrats do have their [ __ ] together they got their eye on the prize and there's going to be no [ __ ] around here like it's just the stakes are too high um and so but there is there's a lot of road ahead and the Euphoria has to really evolve into a much greater campaign that has real depth real resonance um widespread appeal to all the groups in the Coalition and uh ultimately November 5th you know and so anything can and will happen as we've learned we just look at the last seven weeks what what's happened it's insane from a historical standpoint and you know Republicans are shellshocked they did not expect their game plan was what's run against the old guy you know who who they claim can't get a coherent sentence out now they're running against a woman who's 20 years younger than he is and uh a former Attorney General she's really great litigating cases and making closing statements and instead of a depressed party they're dealing with a euphoric party so everything has flipped everything everything and so he's now the bumbling old guy you know who still talks about Hannibal lecor so the contrast now couldn't be greater and so this to me is Democrats election to lose and to underscore that uh whoever is listening and if you have um Instagram there's a re going around or you can YouTube this of how she questioned Kavanagh at his confirmation hearings and there's like 19 seconds I remember that and all you have to do if you're feeling low and you're feeling a little you know uncomfortable watch that and you will be like yes we are going to win yeah it's hard not to feel that way uh she just got the much anticipated uh endorsement of not just Barack Obama but Michelle Obama they were both on a call to her and I think that's going to be a really interesting change in terms of this election versus the prior because Michelle typically didn't get her hands too dirty in politics and she's made a very bold public statement that I am going to be involved in this campaign and people love them some Michelle Obama and if she's out there campaigning like this could be the election where we see numbers we've never seen before all right let's get to our winners and losers my huge losers asinine elected Republican responses to kamla Harris as the new Dem Presidential nominee such as calling Harris a Dei pick asking for proof of Life of Joe Biden and urging the cabinet to invoke the 25th Amendment my winner Joe Biden for both displaying service to his country over his own needs again and by selecting his successor he was able to steer the Democratic party towards Unity my winner is of course camela Harris because we just learned that pelo Kitty is actually a woman and it's obvious we can have a woman president now my loser is Congress the house and the senate for inviting a criminal Netanyahu to speak before a joint session and really demean Congress my winners Joe Biden and kamla Harris for showing us what class Grace patriotism is and what it means to be great human beings my loser is the opposite of what I just said Donald Trump need I say more which gets us to the weekly Ram so what a difference a week makes right just a few days ago Democrats were on the ledge drowning in panic and despair it's nothing but gloom and doom President Joe Biden was going to hand the election to Donald Trump who was going to then destroy democracy the prior three weeks were filled with intense infighting among Democrats those who wanted Biden to stay and finish the course and win another term and save the world from Dr Evil versus those who felt Biden was too old too weak too slow and poised to hand another victory to Trump the pressure campaign among the party Elites and the non-stop incredibly one-sided imbalanced coverage among the media finally worked Biden made what I'm sure was an incredibly emotional painful and perhaps even regrettable decision to quit the race everyone wondered would the party then devolve into chaos with several rapacious candidates throwing their hats into the ring and thus sending the campaign and the upcoming democratic convention in Chicago into a tail spin I was one of those those people concerned that the party would self-destruct with just 3 months left until the election and I'm thrilled to say that I was wrong it is both impressive and inspiring how swiftly kamla Harris has coalesced support from voters and donors true it's only been less than a week but she's off to a Flawless start and the energy and excitement is palpable it's what Democrats so desperately craved and needed and it has completely flipped this election on its head Democrats are now the party of the younger vibrant aggressive galvanizing woman of color and Republicans have been left stunned and without a real plan to defend against the obvious negative Narrative of now being led by an old corrupt incompetent dangerous candidate at the top of their ticket as Jen I'm always in a good hamood hamood likes to say I am optimistic Andy and that's what I'm going to remain as I like what I'm seeing and I personally am going to do everything humanly possible to propel that energy and excitement forward but even more importantly to support kamla Harris help get out the vote and help her become not only the America's first woman president but its first woman of color president and I urge everyone else to join this party as well all right it's time for John Hilman he is a partner Chief political columnist and host of the twice weekly podcast in politic with John Hilman at Puck as well as National Affairs Analyst at NBC News and MSNBC John was also co-creator and co-host of showtimes the circus he is also the author of The New York Times best-selling books Pride before the fall double down and game change the latter of which was adapted into an HBO feature film that won five Emmy Awards three Golden Globes and a Peabody Award he's previously been co-founder and executive editor of the recount co-host of MSNBC and Bloomberg TVs with all due respect managing editor of Bloomberg politics and was a staff writer for New York the New Yorker wired and The Economist John welcome into the back room is this the back room like is this is this where it's like I there's a song like Brownsville Station smoking in the boys room I'm like dating myself here I always feel like the back room is this where like through all like the bad behavior takes place yeah teacher don't you fill me up with your rules because everybody knows that smoking ain't allowed in school that's that's impressive I did a lot of smoking in school I'll tell you back in the day I went to Catholic school and I would ride my bike to school and my friend Paul and I used to ride to bike to school and he had a one of the handlebar grips he could unscrew that and turn into a little tiny bong so we would like take bong hits before we went to this like eighth grade that's very bond is James Bond yeah it was cool it was very a little kind mcgyver meets Bond meets James Bond meets Jeff Spicoli M sounds more like mcgruber that's that's my that's my that's my misspend youth although you know um good to see you man how's it going great and I got to say I was such a huge fan of the circus I've had all your Compadres on U mck and Miller and Jen they're all great they're all great Americans they are great Americans and I was so sad to see that show go I asked Mark if it's ever coming back I'll ask you the same thing like is it ever going to come back somehow somewhere I look uh honest honest to God the deal is um you know we said publicly and and and were and really men you know it was was a weird anomaly of the show in a sense because uh we came in you know in December of 2015 basically at the era of like Peak TV where everybody I mean there were a bunch of people who wanted to make the show with us it was like there a lot of there it was an experiment and we were going to do it for one year and then Trump got elected and it seemed like okay the circus goes on and Showtime was so great with us for so long um I don't know that nobody thought at the beginning that we were going to do as many years as we did and I I'll say personally from my standpoint this is a longer answer than you might have been looking for but like I just wanted to do one more year like I my I I the show is really hard to make and it's it's an exhausting thing we I think a lot of us feel like it's the hardest thing we ever did and also the thing we're most proud of and I was just like I don't want to do this for the rest of my life it was gonna eventually was going to kill me but I really wanted one more year and I wanted the year because we're a campaign show this was going to be a super important campaign and I felt like as a narrative journalist type of person I kind of wanted an end to the story like we' we covered the Trump era and my and I thought you know we'll get to November either Trump will be over or the country will be over but either way the story will be over right um and and and so uh leaving when we did was really painful and it's remains even more painful now I would I I I would say that like through the primaries this year I was not like oh my God I I missed the circus it was like I would have been I was out in Iowa and New Hampshire and South Carolina and there was nothing to cover I mean there was they were both you know the Republican primary was a fake primary the Democratic primary was performa primary I didn't sit there and think man I really wish we were making this show right now but for the last month since the debate to now L literally it's killing it's killing me not to be making the show and we've all all been uh subject to lovely but hundreds of you know I would say minor now in the thousands of people who've said to me in on either in social media or in person how much they missed the show and how much they wanted to come back I I the the the world is this is something I I I don't think I have said publicly but it's just true the the world of of streaming media now after the world of peak TV when everything corrected and and it's very hard right now for people to sell anything in the world you know there's unscripted shows that are getting sold but not very many it's very very tight and all of the the companies that have money Apple Amazon Netflix broadly speaking are really allergic to topical political content for a variety of reasons that I we could go on to offline but like they all have various reasons why they they're they're not against political political things as long as they're historical and some of it just has to do with Trump's toxicity um it's like like we you know we learned this when I was running the recount you know we we we did a billion video streams on Twitter in 2020 in the year 2020 and nobody wanted to advertised next to that content because the that Trump was so polarizing that like Trump on just even like from the press conferences are so press really polarizing so you've got these companies that have money are like very like I we don't want to have anything to do with politics go and look at those platforms Amazon Apple Netflix just look for topical political content current political content in which like you might see Donald Trump's face on screen I defy you to find anything like that on those platforms and then the rest of the industry is in some state of economic addess where like the the the the consolidation of the business means like no one knows is Paramount going to survive is is uh is Warner Brothers uh Discovery is that like they're all tight on money the ones who might who would be interested maybe in in doing the show are very uh economically strapped and the ones who have a ton of money are really allergic to this kind of content so we found ourselves you know I I would have said if the show had had ended two years ago or three years ago we would have had multiple platforms that would have wanted to to pick it up this the combination of of the nature of the structural change that's happening in the business and the timing of when we went off the air left us in a place where you know we have talked to everybody everybody about bringing the show back in some form or fashion I have not given up that ghost and so the answer to your the long answer to your short question I'd love to get the show back on the air all of us would love to do it we'd go back and do uh a two-hour election special that would come out the weekend after the election you know a circus on the Sunday before and the Sunday after at at at like kind of oversized we bring the a show back in it's normal form if we could find someone it's not a cheap show to make so you know this not like cable content where you bring a bunch of people in and you run the cameras and you set a bunch of people in front of cameras and talk to camera like sending five six seven crews out in the field to shoot all week long if you know anything about this business not cheap but you know we're everybody is would it would everyone is like we'll work at scale you know we do it for a discount we we're really passionate about the show so if anybody's out there listening and has some idea for how how to get the thing on the air i' you know we're open we're open to all ideas and we've and we've been out trying to find someone who would take it back on I think the the audience would be there for it I'm not like that was never the problem with the show it was like Paramount decided to drop the show because our numbers were down our numbers had been solid and great for basically the whole life of the show it just is just they're you know it's it's a weird combination of factors so you know hey if you know anybody uh who who's got some dough and a platform to put us on send them my way you know having to have a conversation we love to be back on the air yeah it's you know it's the same for me as like when John Stewart left I was like now you're leaving you know like this seems to the point you made like what a year this would have been for the show primaries aside general election would have been great yeah it would been great to be doing that now even before we knew even before we knew what was going to happen in this month and it's obviously no one would you know hope for events like a catastrophic debate and an assassination attempt like you know but in terms of news those are you know our show was like built for for things like big things that change fast and and were out there in the world covering it a different way so anyway it would have been it would have been uh I mean I'm sure I'd be say if it actually were happening I'd be like I haven't slept very much in the last month anyway but uh I think I probably would not have slept at all for the last month if we were making the circus during this but it would have been uh it would have been quite a thing yeah and you're so right about the streamers I made a documentary three four years ago with HBO they funded the whole thing and I probably couldn't get that funding today from them there's a lot of things like this and again I'm not try I'm not I'm not like trying to I I we I we know you know I work with left right the production company that made the circus on other stuff and you know we all are talking to people at those platforms all the time it's you know I I I'm sympathetic in the sense that everyone knows there's this profound structural change happening in the business there's going to be this consolidation some of these companies are going away and you can say whatever you want about the way that the the streamers the the the content the the the the like call the in the classic Marxist distinction between labor and capital you know in the the capital side of the business I don't have like great sympathy for capital in this fight with in the ongoing fight with the with the Screen Actors and the writer Guild and so on from the strike last year but they all like they made a deal and they don't really know like with AI and the consolidation they don't really understand what the economics of the business are going to be like five years from now so everyone is very and then you have some companies that are massively in debt so it's like all of that together whatever you want to say about the causes of it who's responsible who's to blame they're all like a very very well-known uh executive of a company that made a ton of insanely great programming over the course of uh the 90s and the SS said to me the other day that like the the characteristic uh posture of people who greenl projects right now at all of the streaming companies is you can't we're not doing video but is like being at your desk they're and they're holding on to the edge of their desk and they're afraid they're like quaking as if to like they're like all terrified that they're going to make the wrong decision and right now it's like you literally hear things from some of these companies that's like if you think an OB an idea that you have is too obvious too broad and too dumb or ex company that's the that's the show we want right now like or like bring us bring us bring us your broadest your dumbest your most uh Mass Appeal lowest Comm nominator stuff that's the stuff we want to back right now because especially if there's crime involved because we're super risk ofers crime involved uh you know obviously live sports right now they're all obsessed with that with that crime related obviously celebrity related if you can get access to some big celebrity and lock them in but it's like no one's like hey let's take uh let's it's not even Niche you know anything that sounds interesting it's like oh that's probably yes that's probably yes important and none of them again not to sound too um not to sound too like you know um uhow yeah or just or or too kind of scalish about this but like none of these companies whatever you want to say about ABC CBS NBC in the Golden Age of Television right they all thought they were a public trust that they had some they wanted to make money but they also they started news divisions because they beli that the Airways were scarce they were regulated in certain ways and they were like okay we have in order to make all the money we're going to make we also have to give something back we have to give back this notion of like news divisions that cover the news again no disrespect to any of these people but Apple Amazon Netflix all of them none of them think of themselves that way they think they're entertainment companies they're not like we don't have a responsibility to to do something that's not maximally profitable our job is to maximize shareholder value that's the way they see it and that just means there's this they are the dominant platforms for information going forward and they don't feel like they're public trusts and so I mean I I do slightly worry for the you know we know what's happening we know what's happening the Bro Broadcast News and the cable news are on a on a long-term secular decline to irrelevance you know how long that takes but these are the new platforms that we're all going to watch stuff on and none of them have it in their DNA to say we have an obligation to give something back to the public and I think that's a that's a worrying long-term Trend it's a really great point but it's also a great segue into my next question which is about hat size 3 Productions which is your relatively new company where you are going to producing meaningful and important content well stay tuned let's hope yeah you know I've been I basically after the circus ended you know the guys at left right uh Bank Harbor who's one of the founders there and had made the circus with me us for all these years we had been for most of the time that we were making the circus I would have ideas about things that I wanted to try to develop and I just didn't have time I mean it's like I like literally was bandwidth constrainted for a period of that time I was also I was also running the recount and doing MSNBC and I just I just I I got to the place where Andy you may have this same problem in your life I have been trying for a while to either crack the SpaceTime Continuum and add hours to the day or to figure out the cloning thing because if there were two of me I could do some damage with like with there were two two of me probably literally damag but I just ran I just didn't have time and then the combination of we sold the recount and the circus came to an end and I had more um I had some more I actually had some bandwidth and some running room and so uh hat size 3 was is literally just uh was the a personal like loan out company that I had for myself and then um I thought well let's start doing this development stuff on a more uh in a more rigorous systematized way so I partnered with left right and so we have like a little pod inside left right to develop stuff that's um hopefully will be good and interesting and I don't have any news on that front right now it's been like um it's really really pretty new it's less than a year that we've been doing this and were and we we started doing the middle of the strike so it was sort of like bad in the sense that there wasn't really a market to buy anything but good in the sense that they gave us time to kind of um to do what development really is which is to try to get uh not just to like throw dumb ideas over the transom but to kind of you know spend time doing actual research and and working and trying to figure out things that um to develop relationships and and some deep knowledge about uh ideas and subjects that we want where might be interested in uh and seeing some show show show some form about so hopefully um knocking wood all over the place hopefully you know in the next year some of the things we've been working on will make their way out into the into the into the world and there some of those things are political and some of them are really not political they're much more uh in the space of of uh of sports and in the space of uh culture and other other places that hopefully they're all they're all things people will go oh that's smart that's interesting I'd like to watch that some of them I'm pretty confident about we'll see yeah well believe it or not there's there's a lot more this life than politics they say right so totally good luck with that there really is and and for the record with regard to cloning I've been told by more than one person in my life that one of me is enough so uh well we're gonna leave it at I would never I would never subject anybody to two of me I would just I would keep one of them uh I would keep one of me just like in a in a relatively dark room just doing all the work that I uh that I don't have time for I have the public me and the private me there'd be the me who was like the the work slave enslaved to me by me you just you just teed me up again on private life before we head to politics you've got a Great Dane right I do and you live in Manhattan which means either you have a really dope apartment or really pissed off Great Dane well here's the thing is uh I I I my part is pretty great I'm I like it uh I've bet at some point at one point I had two and it's one of the great um it's one of the great misunderstandings uh about Great Danes is that they are the ultimately they're awesome apartment dogs and they're like they're not um they they great Dan's basically at the age of two uh which is when they basically transition from from from ad puppy adolescent not not adult to adult and and once they hit two they just become the laziest sacks of [ __ ] you can imagine they just they just all they want to do is sit around and on the couch all day and watch TV and they they're like C closer right like people people are used to people are used to their dogs uh you know oh how you have to take dog out like the Dan want to go out when they're adults twice a day it's like they go downstairs in the morning they want to go outst go downstairs like what like they they they're not like they have to they're like hey they can go hours and hours without taking up uh having to peer and so it's like I know people have like vichas you know or uh um you know anything in the terrier category these dogs are run around the house like crazy they're like they if you don't take them about five times a day they have so much energy that it doesn't matter how big your apartment is they fill the apartment up my dog like is H will like sleep eight hours get up go outside do its business come back up eat breakfast and crash for six hours that's like so it's like you kind it's nice have a nice apartment but Dan's actually take up remarkably little in a studio studio apartment they are seriously man the dog have you give the dog a couch he's like I'm fine couching a TV um you know uh but they're great I love they're great City dogs and uh when you take them around I love in SoHo um when you take them out uh take by I say I'm only one right now used to be daiza is the is the dog I have the his older brother who passed away a couple years ago is f and um when I used to walk those two dogs through downtown New York it was like it was like 300 lb a dog and they were both super handsome and people just go whoa like there's a kind of like you know it's either it's great danes and basset hounds are the ones that like if you take them around everyone flips out I don't know why but like there's just kind of like oh my God look at that dog anyway he's good-look he's really sweet and uh I love them I will be a great day owner for Life they're like my they're they're something special well I'm in Tribeca so I'll have to walk over with Ringo my amazing dog and uh make friends what what breed is that dog man I was told he he was a border coli and Golden Retriever and I got a DNA test and he's neither of those things so he's actually Pitbull and chowchow but looks like neither of those I swear everyone I've know know who's ever had a genetic test for their dog because if you get uh if you decide to to to do a rescue situation which I just adore it's weird because Danes are tricky with rescues if you want to get those dogs but like as a general matter the idea of doing rescues seems to me like the shop thing is a good model to live by everyone I know who has M has a mut of some form um has gone not everyone has gone to get the DNA test but everyone who has always comes back and the dogs are always at least 40% pit right and like and then and there's always a lot of chow it's like pits and Chows are out there like like doing the nasty all over the place because every dog that's not a purebred dog has a ton of pit and a ton of Chow in them I i' say like I doesn't really look like that but okay sure you know yeah I we were Sur we were totally surprised all right let's uh let's yeah Ringo and when I walk Ringo and they say what's his name I go Ringo and they go oh named after the drummer I'm like is there another Ringo like they they want to be friends but they often ask really dumb questions yes oh your dog's named mahat mandhi is that is that named after the sort of sem secular Saint leader of the nation of India no my uncle my Uncle M yeah my uncle oh yeah Mah all right so let's pivot here it's been not even two months we've seen Trump become a convicted felon President Joe Biden had a disastrous debate performance followed by three weeks of intense Democratic infighting an assassination attempt on Trump Biden quitting don't forget the Republican convention I'm getting there if you're going sequentially you got the assassination attempt then the Republican convention and we had JD Vance we had Kid Rock and what's his name Hulk Hogan and the weirdo from the UFC then we had Biden quit kamla Harris this really does give new meaning to the phrase anything can and will happen in politics right it's like one of the things you you should have learned from um the Trump era has been that not only that predictions are are tricky but that like settled assumptions are tricky like if you sort of make like well on the basis of all the things that we know you know uh this can't happen that thing will then happen or or this is definitely going to happen that thing then doesn't happen it's almost like like the the you know man plans God laughs thing is like sort like in this era is just like reliably whatever you are convinced of either it will happen or won't happen you can pretty much bet that the opposite things going to take place you know I we did in the last episode of the circus um I did the last interview of the last episode of the circus was with James Carbell uh and that I sat down with James and and and he said this thing that at the time given the backdrop of what I just said about the unpredictability of this era struck me as right I mean James basically said um we've got two and a half years of polling now that suggests that the country hates this race we're that we're in like the country does not want Trump and Biden they don't they like people are just not into that you know and there's an incredible lack of enthusiasm among among among on both sides um you know Trump's very small base and there's you know they enthus but even in the Republican party which we think of as being like an overall Maga cult and I saw this in the primary you know you go around people were not you know a third of the party was really into a trump a quarter but a lot of Republicans had the attitude which was I hate [ __ ] Joe Biden but I'd rather not have Trump but Trump was obviously I don't want to fight this because the you know this is where it's going to go and obviously on the Democratic side I ran of people like that all the time Biden for for two years and you know I I would travel on the country and the ma main thing that I would hear from people was is this really the best we can do you know like these two oxygen are in the late '70s these guys 350 million people in the country this is like what we got a rerun of these of these old dudes and James said I just don't I I'm not g to predict for you how or why or what but I just don't think this is sustainable you know a a a race for three quarters of the country doesn't want it m it you're something's going to happen and we're going to look up and we're going to say uh he's like six months from now something's going to happen we're all going to look up and say holy [ __ ] I didn't see that coming you know he's just like I just you know the herbstein uh Nick an economist who said you know that which is unsustainable will not sustain and James's version of that you know that which can't go on won't you know it's like that something would happen right and it was a little bit kind of oracular and kind of gnomic to say you know something will change but I don't know what but like I thought at the time it intuitively felt right to me that somehow like it just didn't seem like Trump you really think Trump and Biden that rematch is going to be what we're going to have uh when we get to O nove November 2024 I don't know I just don't feel it and so in some ways like that has stuck in my head you know the whole time you know and and so I didn't no one predicted you know uh well the debate will happen and then the following things will happen but yes I mean I I've never seen I've been doing this 35 years I've never seen a series of seismic events on this scale happen in such a com Quest period of Time game changers so to speak right whereas like it's just been like you know from week to week these giant things have happened and I you know I do think that resetting a race like this in a fundamental way where in in a weird way all the things that came before that led to where we are now has created the now which is to say you know Democratic enthusiasm for uh Comm Harris's is is off the charts I if if Joe Biden had had stepped away in in at the end of the the if after the 2022 midterm Joe Biden had said I've now done this incredible thing I beat Donald Trump I I beat Co I brought the economy back I now gave Democrats a really solid midterm in 2022 I'm I said I was going to be transitional I'm now going to step away and let my party have a primary I I don't there's no world in which I think that vice president Harris would have swept that primary she was not within the party broadly speaking sure it would have been a competitive primary she would have been maybe the front runner but there would have been that whole Democratic bench would have been out there it would have been a very vigorous primary and I don't know who would have won that primary but it wouldn't have been like K Harris by acclamation right well she ran once before it wasn't she didn't get and she wasn't and she wasn't great I and I've known her a long time and I have a lot of respect for her I like her but I just I this is not to diss her it's just to say the level of enthusiasm Unity around her is a a product of how of how despondent yep and and how much pain there was in the Democratic side on behalf of Joe Biden worry about Biden worry about the future worry about Trump the the this the intensity of it is a a function of what came before right and and and the same thing in the Trump World where you know they really were had no contingency plan they they you know they they T we used to talk about well what if Democrats they used to S publicly say well Democrats will never let you know Trump for I think for a past couple years has been saying he would that Biden wouldn't end up being the Nom he'd been saying that but not believing it and they engineered an entire campaign around the notion that this was the guy that they they could run this play strong versus weak uh and that Biden kept everything he did kept falling further into that into that framework which is you know the debate was really the ultimate it's beyond whatever you think about his performance in it and what it said about the future the frame they built which was he's old useless weak can barely get a sense out of his head that was what they they they built a whole campaign around that you know and he reinforced that frame and then the thing that was actually Unthinkable to them which was Democrats actually did this highly rational thing at the end was like oh we're going to lose with this guy we need to change even though it's at the last minute and even though it's risky we're just going to do it and the Trump campaign is so right now what's the the bumfuzzled sh fuddled be fogged shove and they have no play I mean and the ultimate example of that and the ultimate proof of that is JD Vance who is a pick made on the basis of I don't think vice presidential picks matter I don't think JD Vance is going to matter to who to what Donald Trump does or doesn't do how whe whether he wins or who wins or who loses in November but just as a sign there's no more sign of of abject arrogance uh overc competence huis than that pick because sure it's The Pick of it's The Pick of they you know you you saw the Tim Alberta thing they were like we thought they thought they were on the way to 320 vot electoral Landslide before the debate by the time you got to Ohio to to the to the Convention of Milwaukee they were thinking about 350 360 they were like we are man we are going to we could read and just I remember hearing Chris lasv Susie Wilds Tony Fabrizio starting to talk about we are going to bring in a a fundamental realignment of American politics that's the level of a of a landslide that we're going to bring man I'll tell you I remember back when Carl Ro talku about a 50-year republican majority and you know when when strategists start to talk about fundamental of realigning the American electorate that's when you go oh hi can I may I introduce you Mr loita and Mr am man gentan Nam Icarus it's like you guys are you you huffed a little too much of your own glue and that the JD Vance pick is that pick it was like we don't need to think about anything else we just I'm thinking about an heir to my legacy who will become the the guy who carries the Maga Banner forward into the new American Maga future it's like oh boy um you guys are just like inviting that's that is huis on a grand scale so now they're stuck with him and and and they don't have a plan for Harris and and they they know look she is having this is the best moment of her campaign right now it's not to say anything negative about her say this this is the she's in her honeymoon on steroids period and it's not just that the party loves her but that the other side is now totally confused and doesn't know what to do and they're flailing right the Trump side the Maga side will get a chit together and she will take some knocks and so the things will will revert to the mean this will be a very close race I think but it really has I've never seen a reset like this before like at this late at this late stage so yes sure so back to your point Andy yeah the the next three months are going to be I mean we are totally in Uncharted water and it's G to be quite something to watch and you know your book game change you referenced that this is a gamechanging moment you teed up for me again talk about James Carville you know the mood of Democrats has swung wildly in one week Democrats went from panic and despair to downright Euphoria so Corville he's warned that quote that excitement has to be tempered with realism and he also said quote enjoy yourself feel good but there's tough sledding ahead he said but then even more so he said quote if this was a play it would be called The Ice Pick cometh get ready they're coming for us is he being a little bit of a Debbie Downer or is he being preed again and you know this is going to be a blood bath with these guys I mean look I you can I I've never I don't [ __ ] with James like I you know James is like I think that people who are I think james' attitude is like you know if you you should go into um you know a knife fight with a knife right like you should go into a you should go you know do people really want want to know that there's a guy with a trenin you know around the corner you know but like oh don't tell me about the guy with a trench I'll just take my chances it's like I think people like I don't know what the hell they're talking about I you know uh people used to get mad at me when I would do interviews on the circus with Steve Bannon and I was always like guys like I'm not platforming the guy I'm not I'm gonna ask him hard questions but more importantly like do you really you have a choice here either let those guys operate in the shadows or throw some light on them I don't know if I'm a if I'm a partisan Democrat I would rather know what the guy's doing sure than have him off skulking around in the in the dark and I think James is trying to throw some light on what's to come you know there's reasons why people were nervous about uh kamla Harris as a nominee not anything to do with well some people had people had various reasons but one of them was you know people who have seen what what Trump's America was like for four years and the forces and the and the impulses that Trump Drew upon to win in 2016 and to govern the way he governed and to let loose some of these uh wor angels of of the of the national character out in the in the in the world you know you look at a a it's inspiring to see for a lot of us to see a non-white woman uh potentially as president for a bunch of other people not inspiring at all and and and so you you know that what that means is you know uh uh the southern strategy you know on steroids and and there's going to be it of course it's going to be ugly vicious demonizing racist misogynist attacks some of them above the water line some of them bely deep below the CC surface you know if everybody takes seriously the notion that the right-wing Echo chamber and the media right-wing media sphere and the coordinated way in which all of the governmental uh political and and free agent parts of that world have in the past worked with kind of devilish uh orchestration and synchronicity to accomplish their ends you have got to understand that that this woman is going to be fed through a meat grinder over the course of the next few months I don't mean that she won't survive and I don't mean that there's not a counterveiling set of forces I just mean like don't walk into this thinking she's gonna now I I I gotta say like I you know the Democrats and social media they're not any real few of them who live in the real world were like it's going to be a landslide I'm like it's not gonna be a landslide for her it's not don't don't you soundly you're as high on your own Supply as the as the as the Trump people who JD Vance was a good idea right this is not a country where landslides uh happen it's just the the combination the Electoral College is designed the country's in you know well and and the Electoral College is designed to give Republicans an advantage and you can you can win by 8 million votes and still only win the popular vote and still only win the electoral college by 50 60 70,000 it's it's it's a and and we have a very polarized country so it's like I think that she is going to be I think this next this is a little bit of very conventional wisdom but they are she's going through the I don't think that I won't say the worst period but the very intense period right now in which they're they the right is trying to uh at a moment when she's still when KLA Harris is still not super well defined in the public mind you know and uh people in the country I hate to tell everybody they don't really know very much about the vice president of the United States ever they didn't really pay that much attention to Joe Biden when he as vice president or Mike Pence or Dick Cheney or Al Gore you know a vice president getting rolled out is something that if you have months and months to do it you can you make the case to people who are very low information about who this person is and tell them about their accomplishments and how they help the president in the course of the time they were in office most people in the country don't know who she is and so there's this definitional battle right now where in this four-week period the right is trying to Define her in the worst possible way which is why we've seen this flood I would say that that it's a lack of coordination and focus because of the thing I said before about how little they don't really know how to go after her so you're hearing they're just throwing the kitchen sink at her right now um but it's very it's intense right now and they're trying to get it done before she gets to the convention where she's going to have the stage for four days where Democrats will put on a very that will be their formal place to introduce her SL reintroduce her to the country but I don't think that that that anybody should be under an illusion that like if they haven't destroyed her in 4 weeks that they're going going to give up on the other side of the convention that we're not going to see two months right the the Trump campaign is the Trump campaign and its super Pacs and Affiliated groups are going to be very well funded and as I said above the waterline below the the Subrosa and above the waterline the attacks are going to be vicious and and the country has you know there are reasons why the southern strategy has prevailed in the Republican party for a long time because I I don't believe the country is majority racist I don't believe the country is majority that's a good point because I was going to say like when I take my liberal empath hat off and I put on my political hat I say okay yeah the attacks are going to be brutal they will be sexist they will be racist they're going to be ugly as [ __ ] but maybe with the moderate Republicans with independence with Suburban women with Suburban moms that shit's not going to play well is it I agree look I mean look uh you know people I it's so weird to be like trying to be an I'm I'm try to be a realist but I also am enough of a realistic Optimist that and I don't think it's it's it's pen I think it's like rose color glasses is to remind people that we did elect a black president in in our in both of our lifetimes Andy I mean amazingly some people thought it would never happen but we had a guy who got elected in 2008 2012 as usual the Peng the actual utopian panglossian with like oh racism is gone in America we have a black president now you're like no no the country's really big and really complicated it can be a bunch of things at the same time there was a backlash to Obama but I still don't I still think the majority that elected Barack Obama comfortably in 2012 and by a landslide in 20 2008 that that majority is still there and some of the people who are there are some people who aren't racist some people who probably are like a little racist but don't want to be and are like trying to be who don't want to think of themselves that way and that's the combination of people who are proud to put br Obama and the White House in two consecutive terms also the country to the extent it's changed over the last decade is you know some bunch of Voters have died and a bunch of new voters have come into the cohort right and the Gen Z people on the basis of all we can see are every new generation is less racist is less homophobic is more that's again it's not that they're all there's still you know young racists out there and young homophobes out there but they are broadly speaking gen Z does not have an appetite for kind of overt and even subtle racism so there's an opportunity this is why the Biden thing of not not getting young voters infused was such a problem because those voters are by Nature uh inclined at least in Social areas to be Progressive and to be open-minded about about matters of of so of Social and cultural uh uh areas in in in policy and in in just how they live their lives and so is there a a a non-m misogynist non-racist the majority in America to be tapped to win if especially when you combine it with the number of people who just [ __ ] hate Trump even the some of the people who are sure sort of racist sort of misologist who look at Trump and go he's just too far you know that's the that's those are the people in cob County Georgia who like Trump lost their not because Georgia turned blue or even purple but there were a bunch of Country Club Republicans in Georgia who are like yeah I'm really a I'm a I'm a a Brian Kemp Republican but Donald Trump is a big I want any part of that right you put all that together there's an anti there's a there's a stable Democratic non-trump majority in the country and so I like to I think that you're that the the the optimism that you that that conla Harris will be able to get through the the most virulent racist sexist parts of this I think that's well-placed and you know I I have never referred to Kevin McCarthy as a as a wise man before but you know he was on he was on Meet the Press now the other day saying that he thought you know that that that the attack the Dei attacks on her were I mean Kevin mcarthy would never say immoral or unethical but he did basically say it was not it was a matter of efficacies like these aren't going to work right you know people don't that's not going to work on her she's the vice president of the United States people don't think she got there by by through some favor through some uh quota system or something some some misguided attempted affirmative action and he also said that he thought that these other stupid ass Republican view which is there was a cover up if Trump if Biden can't isn't fit to campaign he's not fit to serve that that was also stupid the problem for her is going to be this is is actually the place where I think that I don't want to give them advice but they'll they're already finding their way to it's not that hard to see Joe Biden was a 38% there were two different problems for Biden one problem for Biden was majority of the country a vast majority and a decent sized majority of their Democratic party f for the last three years he was too old to do a second term that is a fact it's was clear in the polling for years starting in October of 2021 more than half of Democrats were saying they thought he was too old to be president okay so that's a fact the other thing is he's got 38% approval rating that doesn't have anything to do with his age and again this is where the to me where the contest is going to take place that putting aside why people think this there's he's he's unpopular because of concerns about things like inflation and immigration and crime again we can spend a lot of time talking about why those fears are misplaced or why he doesn't deserve the blame or whatever those are reasons why Joe Biden was unpopular and what is fair is that if if Kamala Harris wants to say I'm I I have these accomplishments as part of the Biden Administration she should own she owns those she gets St credit right but they are also going to say well you were there for these three years you have to own the parts of Biden's record that are unpopular and so then the question is going to be an argument over how to define those is the how do you try to make the economy less not diffuse the inflation thing and point to the better parts of the economic record have some more empathy uh in in the economic area on the immigration make the argument that we passed a great border security Bill and then Trump killed it those are all but that's to me if I'm in Harris world and I can tell you that I know that this is the case in the Harris world what they worry about is that there's a whole bunch of Defense to do on the front of race gender all those attacks but were they are they actually vulnerable is on these matters of that have that have are that made Biden unpopular and how do they defend on those fronts and try to win on that on on that case and I think there's going to be you know the immigration thing is going to be very hot because it also gets it's kind of sits at the core of a policy issue that also has all these racial components they've also defined her as the the immigration Zar which is totally bogus and you know but that's what they do yes so that's so that's I think that that's you if you look at what that I think look but I think it's this is a winnable race for I I I have always thought you know this this race is going to be a close race it's going to be a margin of eror race till the till the end it's not impossible that if a really well-run Harris campaign given how bad Trump is and you know you see him now backpedaling from doing a debate with her he knows he's going to get ripped up if he if he has to uh if he has to debate her um I think Harris campaign well can win mhm yeah go ahead sir I was just going to say that I think her being a litigator her being a former prosecutor district attorney Attorney General I think to the points you're making I I think those strengths those assets are really going to benefit her she should better than most people perhaps be able to present the closing argument as if she was in a courtroom you know convincingly hopefully I think that's I think that's right she she's you know as I said I've known her for a long time um I met her at 1999 I think when she was in City Hall in San Francisco and I was living there and I I Me by I mean by I met her as in I started covering her in some ways then and I I will I the thing that people I guess you know the prosecutor part of her she is you know at heart a lawyer and she you know she plays that part well and she and it's really poor to who she is um I me plays that part as and fakes it but I mean she inhabits that role as we all inhabit our various roles I think that you know when she ran for president one of the fundamental confusions or difficulties that they never her campaign never was able to kind of untangle was that her authentic self was I'm a prosecutor you know and she was running in a Democratic primary that was more Progressive than she is and so they did not think I'm a prosecutor was a way to be Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren you know they just and so they were wrapped around the axle of like what what what should she be uh what what part of her personality and her Public Image did they want to emphasize they never figured it out and the most natural authentic part of her is this prosecutor part and they felt uncomfortable in the Democratic party at at in the era of you know defund the police and and and and all the rest of it this is pre- George Floyd but but still defund the police was a thing that was already happening then she just didn't feel very comfortable in that space she doesn't have to worry about that now you know she she she needs to be her authentic self to be her best self but also she running she's running in a general election against a [ __ ] felon right and so no one in the Democratic party is going to be like oh don't lean into your prosecutorial credentials ma'am defund the da it's like that's not you know that's not the issue here right she's gonna be able to lean into that and not have to be thinking about you know worried about that she has the whole Democratic party behind her everyone will Embrace this notion of her Prosecuting Donald Trump and I think that massively Works to her Advantage you a place where you can be your authentic self and know that there's not any trap doors out there for you on that front uh is a massive Advantage uh against Trump massive yeah well it's like it's very Shakespearean it's like the prosecutor the convicted felon this is this is not an election it's a courtroom it's a trial like it really is kind of Hollywood in a sense but in our final couple of minutes let me know if you want to handicap VP job who do who does she pick what makes most sense for her well I hate predictions well here's what I'll say I I always I generally I also hate the beep Stakes as a general thing because it's like at some point we're going to know who [ __ ] cares um like what anybody has to say in advance I would say this though I that that that I this is a little different because unlike a normal beep Stakes I want to be clear I don't think that who she picks that that there's I there's zero evidence that who you pick get you votes like you're going to get a demographic or a state or this or that the the vice presidential selection always matters in only one way and but in this case that way is Amplified and the way it matters is it says something about who you are you are making a choice that that is a reflection of of your values and your personality and and most first and most importantly this is like the thing that gets you 95% of the way there if you pick someone who is ready to be president from day one and is perceived as being ready to be president from day one you are 97% of the way of winning the game vice presidential picks can hurt you and the way they hurt you is that if you make an irresponsible pick it they can you get hammered and that makes people think less of you it's just like why ultimately Palin was a bad pick for McCain you know cynical not ready to be president people looked at her and were like that person can't be president and in the end although she he gave she gave him a boost with the base for a couple weeks in the end he was she was a drag on him you know you pick Dan Quail you pick someone who who the filter looks at and says that person's not ready to be president you have a problem and be consumes media Cycles etc etc so first thing is for reasons of both this is a place where politics and and substance merge perfectly it's the right thing to do for the country and it's the right thing to do for your politics to pick someone who immediately clears the bar whever he goes okay that person could be president we're moving on and then there's a thing about what does IT project about what you think you could gain as a govern as a governing partner like you're sort of saying something about I about acknowledging that you don't you're no one is the complete package and that I could benefit in some way from having this person at my side Obama picks Biden and and as a kind of tacit thing was and and Bush picks Cheney as a kind of tcid thing of I don't have that much foreign policy experience I would be good for me to have a gry head who knows foreign policy at my side that's like we we admire that kind of a of an admission that you could gain from somebody who has more of something than you do right I think you know the the the Notions that uh you know people like a lot of people like Mark Kelly in this uh in this position uh for all these Naro political reasons he's from Arizona and you know uh but I think you know the there's a sense of National Security uh his his background in the military uh he obviously would bring uh you know Gabby gords along as part of a package deal there would highlight an issue the Democrats care about um I so I think he's perfectly plausible I think you know uh Josh Shapiro is is is perfectly plausible these names are are thrown around but I somebody said to me the other day that there's like there's like politics picks and there's kind of like um there's kind of picks up kind of imagination where it's like and you know like when Clinton picked Gore it was like defied everybody's ideas of like what you should do like he's not balancing the ticket he's he should have picked an older guy he should have picked a guy from a different part of the country he picked another guy who's basically his age from the same part of the country that's crazy and instead you got all this generational Mojo people were like look at those guys look at those two families up there they're both they're like this is a new generation that's coming right there was that was an imaginative pick right and in that realm it's like you know if I I I I the best political athlete of all these people are being concerned right now just best the best athlete who's on the anybody's list right now is Pete budajudge he's a the best performer incredibly smart like no one you know and again to bet on the notion that not that America's ready I think too much change for a lot of Americans would be to put another woman on the ticket like I think that would be too much change for the part of the electorate that's going to decide the election that would be like a little scary for people I I I'm not endorsing that I'm telling you I think many people would say in the 7% That's undecided right now you would be asking for to them to absorb a lot of change a non-white woman at the top of the ticket another woman on the ticket people would be like you know this feels a little risky or in the age of Dos and choice and bodily autonomy that could be the imaginative ticket that you're talking about it would be so it would be an imaginative pick and again I could I I again it's not up to me to get behind behind it I could see the logic for it for what you say that's the all dos ticket that's the Gan Whitmer ticket she's incredibly impressive sure and Michigan can't win without Michigan I would not pick I would not be I I want to be clear I can when I say that I think there will be there would be those who would say to her uh to Comm Harris would say to her hey you know we're talking about a a smallow slice of the electorate here that's not that as this point is still undecided about Donald Trump I totally who UND who's undecided about Donald Trump this would this there's a risk here here's what the risk and the reward is the reward is as you said Andy the reward would be we go all in on dos right right I think you know the reason I say this about Pete is and again I don't have a dog in this fight I really don't but on on the Pete side there'll be people will say well you know that's too much change too he's gay he's out out gay you know again but it's the imaginative choice to your point that bucket of there's that bucket over there which is the the Gretchen Whit Pete Budaj bucket which is kind of like doubling down on something doubling down on on it is a new generation it is a new time this is a new America let's make that that optimistic bet I I again I don't give advice and I I I think all of these picks have certain upsides and certain downsides you know I do I can see how you build a case around at this moment boldness as opposed to something that feels narrow and political where it's like you pick this person you barely knew because they might be able to help you in Pennsylvania and again I think joshiro is great whatever I mean I I I he could be president one day I just there it will feel very much like wow she was really trying to get Pennsylvania I I think that the conversation you want is not he helped her in a state he needs he helped her in a state she needs I think the conversation you want is man she has just grabbed the rein of this thing and is making a pick that's like that within the without going crazy that's within the bounds of like that feels imaginative and bold and and and and I would say that's even true someone like Admiral mcraven no one's talking about the guy but you know you want National Security you know he's like I no one's is not really in the conversation right now but is a a very the most highly DEC decorated public democrat uh in the uh in the mil exmilitary out there you know would would convey a certain kind of um hey I know that I need some help I know that I I would really I was a dangerous world I need somebody who really can help bolster me on National Security again I say I Think Bold right now is is in some ways better than than cautious yeah well it's going to be real interesting and there's so many great choices and you know we're going to find out and I guess in like a week or two I'll tell you what I will do is it will it's going to one way or the other the whole thing is going to highlight just the depth of Democratic bench and one thing to say about now clear the Democratic bench is deep uh with talent and and it will be if you're a Democrat you will be now that you moved on to this new nominee presumptive nominee you're going to be psyched to see the Democratic bench unle display in Chicago because they're going to be able to say hey uh you know we have a lot of uh players here that are going to be big a big deal in the future are you saying that uh Taylor Swift and Beyonce might be a little more exciting than uh uh Lee Greenwood [Laughter] Leen if you listen to the lyrics of that song they have nothing to do with Trump not not one line of the lyrics not one anyway my last question it's not a political question it's a window into the soul question and music is the best window into one soul that we can get so give me your top five musical artists of all time I that's this is a question I can't answer um I just refus to answer it's just like I I I I have I'm not being a um I just I don't really think about the world that way I'm just I'm a very I have a massive and and and an Eclectic set of of musicians that I that I adore five mus artists that you love to here's here's here's a a part here's a partial answer I the last um uh I went last night to the 150th and Final show of Billy Joel's residency at massard I've never been to a Billy Joel show before so I'm not like I'm not a you know I grew up with Billy Joel but I had never gone to see Billy Joel before um I respect the guy um the show was great great I I I I like I've never I it's there's something about uh there's something about the way he does what he does that I I've rarely seen a crowd more I mean it was a joyous night uh President Clinton was there the mayor was there and Cuomo was there the masar garden was full as it could be it was a real thing last night cuz SE 150 soldout shows 150 sold out M Garden 150 times and and and and you know when I was a kid I said to somebody who was the in his Entourage last night they were like have you never seen Billy before have you ever seen Billy before I said no I said look man when this guy was big I like was listening to The Clash like I was like Billy Joel seemed really soft to me when I was 18 25 you know and now I appreciate his his gifts as a songwriter more than I did then and I really appreciate his unselfconsciousness and how much fun he had doing the way he is on stage is just so unselfconscious and the crowd was just absolutely having the best time of almost any show I've ever seen in Madison squ Garden do I love Taylor Swift I love I Taylor Swift incredible uh you know people know that uh and and and and uh I mean incredible I think she's the heir to uh to Springstein I think she's she's one of the great one of the great pop songwriters in uh really ever and certainly of her era of her era I saw Chrissy hin and The Pretenders um down in in Red Bank New Jersey on the night that Trump got shot um in fact and she's in her now I think early 70s and late very late 60s early I think she might be 72 she's [ __ ] just shreds still at that age um you know uh people know that I have this affiliation with uh and and uh long relationship with and and and love for uh Wang Clan but you know my hip hop uh loves are all over the place my you know the Beasty Boys and and and uh rund DMC and trap gold Quest and um uh you know I I I could Name six I could name 10 hip-hop groups that I can't live without this is why I can't answer the question five greatest I I you know is is is is do what I when I put Tribe Called Quest over the Beatles you know are they belong on the same list I don't know I love the Beatles um uh I'll tell you here I'll get this is the last thing I'll do for this just this will make use here are the uh here's the here are the the the shows uh this is a this is a window into the soul okay in my um in my calendar here are shows that I am um I was up at the Apollo Theater last Friday night this is not a music show but I went up and saw this snap show that Dave Chappelle and John Stewart threw up at the Apollo that was awesome I was at Billy Joel last night uh on Monday Beck is playing at Carnegie Hall I'm gonna go check that out uh I've got uh what all is in this what else do we have things go a little crazy in the fall so it's like uh in the fall here A bunch of things that are on my list uh PJ Harvey Bikini Kill um uh Pearl Jam up at Fenway uh Jesus and Mary Chain Cat Power uh Vampire Weekend that's like September uh Jason isbel at the Ryman uh Maggie Rogers is a friend theth is coming doing a Revival Tri at the at the Beacon uh a is playing at the Beacon uh waxahachi uh you know I'm all over the place you gave us you gave us a window into the soul for sure I yes I can't give you I don't like I wouldn't want to do top fives but uh but I'll tell you me I'm really looking forward to getting up to see this uh this uh I Jason isbel does a week at the Ryman every year in Nashville um that I have never been able to get to previously I'm really hoping this fall I'll be able to get to that although the presidential campaign may keep me from doing it and I am not going to let anybody stop me from seeing uh Pearl Jam at no and I was going to say I am going to see Pearl Jam they're going to be here in in the city in September and I can't wait for that I've never SE I can't believe I've never seen them before I have seen them but you can never go wrong uh seeing them again and I love to heing Eddie's got a a version of uh the English Beat song saved for later on the bear season 3 soundtrack that's just really incredible so if you haven't heard that you should go check it out oh by the way I don't know if you're a Beatles fan but I just interviewed Pete best last week Pete best Pete best it was amazing I had goosebumps the whole time wow I gotta go back has that dropped already it dropped like three days ago it's an hour with Pete best and I asked him who the better drummer is Pete best or Ringo you can what say you can find out I I won't spoil it I mean it would be you probably know what his answer was well I I all I'll say is that is that uh it would be a very very large bald answer to say I'm I that I that I'm better thano Star but um I'm not saying a thing I'm not gonna say I'm I'm not saying I'm not saying okay I'll go I'm gonna check it out I gotta listen to that podcast all right John it was a lot of fun we could probably do this for two more hours in my opinion uh you'll have to come back as these next three months on fold in the cray cray way that they're probably going to thanks for anytime bro anytime anytime happy to see you all right it is time for yet another episode of Just Jeff hey Jeff welcome back into the back room what's going on all right yeah I'm I'm ready to go you energized you're excited are you enthused yes I am I'm enthused about a lot of things but especially the new candidate who um the opponent feels as is going to be only temporary because what he's going to beat her in the polls and the Democrats are then going to pick a replacement for I think he's I think he's wishful thinking this is fascinating watch she you eat drink yeah I can I can do it I can eat drink and breathe at the same time I'm multitalented so what tell me in a nutshell uh why are you so excited and enthused about the new candidate well um uh she knows what she's talking about and I think the most important thing is that um if assuming they do have another debate I wouldn't guarantee that she will be able to tell him that he's full of you know what I don't am I allowed to say that on the show yes that he's he's just he's just a bullshitter which he he was that and and most Dems know that but I don't know if all everyone else knows that there you go all right um um and have you been listening to the podcast anything yes I just want to the one the one that was with those two women from senica so and you said something during the warm-up to that um with the three of you talking you said that you would vote for a shoe rather than vote for Trump and my position I don't know if you U Know About there was once a vice president who said the vice presidency isn't worth a bucket of warm spit that was John man ganner ther in the first two terms of FDR however he never said warm spit he said bucket of warm spit he said it's a bucket of warm something else that rhymes with spit but it's it was of course anyway all right well any parting thoughts on anything oh yes what there's one thing please Andy do not do this again I know you it was very Val he said something about it's like Jeffrey dhama being a vegetarian that is makes very sense but please just don't use the I'm glad you said Jeffrey and not Jeff because just Jeff was very upset because that's the worst possible Jeffrey you want to tell us Jeff all right just let me just say the final thing if I have it can get it in sure so this um what's her name uh Tara said something about women will save the country and I agree and Jen I don't know if did your mother send you this song about women will take charge yes you should share it with Andy we'll do it's a great but because it's my favorite rock song in fact it's my favorite song that was written after 1619 in know and had a business Jeff thanks so much as always we'll talk to you next time thank you byebye take care bye dad this episode of the back room was edited and produced by Me Andy ostroy it was co-edited and co-produced by Maddie Rosenberg and co-produced by Jen hammood our theme song was composed by Andrew Hollander and our logo was designed by cricet langel and special thanks to Patricia wind please take a moment to rate and review the podcast and also follow or subscribe until next time keep your eyes on Washington Hollywood and your own backyards and have a great week [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Applause] [Music] n [Music] 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