Is IVF "Pro Life"? What You Need to Know

[Music] okay so there has been a lot of drama there's always a lot of drama I could literally do a show every week on Christian Twitter soap opera it's always so some kind of controversy hard feelings and foolishness happening over on Christian Twitter or X but in this week's episode we're going to talk about invitro fertilization always a very emotional and difficult topic I'm going to try to walk us through some things and to um not just understanding what's happening right now but to use the news events of what's happening right now as a means to teach you some things about how to think about this complicated and often emotional topic and uh thank you Susanna see I look nice today just slapped on some makeup hopefully it's working get the earring fish the earrings out of my desk and voila here I am okay so we are going to talk about an editorial that appeared late last week on the Fox News website and it was actually a reprint from um an oped in a Dallas newspaper the headline is I'm a pro-life Pastor who is very thankful that the miracle of IVF and IVF stands for invitro fertilization we're going to talk about that allowed me to become a dad and the subtitle is defending IVF will allow future parents to fulfill their god-given desire to nurture a child and this is an opinion piece by um a Dallas area Pastor named Dr Jeremiah J Johnston and there are a number of Jeremiah Johnston's out there this is not the I think there's one that even is like a charismatic Trump Prophet or something is not that guy uh there a different guy so we'll talk a little bit more about him as we go along and then we are also going to read through some highlights of Katie fa's response article to Dr Johnson's Johnston's article uh that appeared in the Federalist this morning Pastor twists himself in knots to claim being pro IVF is pro life a very provocative title from our friend Katie F I'm going to try to break it all down for you today and um hopefully this will be helpful this is my hope so this is going to be a bit of a free style type of episode I don't have I just kind of have an outline I don't have it completely scripted out because I just don't have time for that these days but I wanted to hit some highlights for you and let you know about this controversy simply because and for reasons that I'm going to continue to unfold throughout this stream just how very practical and important it is and that this issue of infal fertilization is really at the intersection of Theology and real life and I want to unpack that a little bit more for you today but there is a growing movement and Kevin brins and I talked about this last Saturday on all the things we went through a whole show about how to read a political platform and one of the points that we made toward the end is that the Republican platform has made a shift uh to including the issue of being pro in Ral feralization as part of the larger pro-life movement and I have some concerns about that that I want to go into more detail on we only briefly touched on that in all the things and so I want to explain that a little bit more but I also want to let you know that I am not new to the IVF conversation this is an issue that has been a concern of mine that I feel like has needed more public conversation for 30 years um ever since I took a class in ethics which a large portion of that class was on medical ethics back in seminary in the early 90s I have known that this was an issue that needed more awareness among Evangelical Christians but there were really very few voices who have spoken out about it yeah there's like your little oneoff academic pieces or you might get an article on the Gospel Coalition website here and there but there hasn't been anybody who's really making these issues a central focus and um I think that uh we need more conversation about this issue especially among pastors because a lot of pastors are not informed so they don't know how to counsel their people and yet many of the people in their pews are experiencing infertility and seeking out Solutions related to IVF without even having an awareness of some of the ethical problems and implications for their worldview and you know I'm always an advocate for people having a more integrated worldview and I realize that you know that's why Ministries like mine exists and other people who are in this space that we are trying to help people have a more consistent and biblically integrated worldview and so that's really the spirit and nature of this conversation and I really appreciate already some of you are jumping in the comments with your experiences with IVF I will look forward to reading those and um I have a listener here who agrees with me yes pastors need to be teaching on it and that is going to be a point I am going to circle back to toward the end of the stream so I look forward to engaging you on this topic and I'm going to try to explain things as calmly as I can as carefully as I can as nuanced as I can but you have to understand that sometimes you can kind of nuance something to death so I'm going to try to speak in Broad principles here I am not speaking to you personally so don't take it personal if I say something that hits you hard I'm not trying to be condemning I am rather trying to explain a Biblical worldview and some of the Wis wisdom that uh relates to and connects to this issue for you to then wrestle with with a help of the Holy Spirit and to see what is there for you okay so before I get into this oped piece by Dr Jeremiah J Johnston I want to make a few preliminary comments about the Christian worldview and the intersection of infertility and the seeking of uh IVF or infertility uh in vual feralization treatments now the first thing I want to say and I want this to be an overarching ethos to our whole conversation today is that I understand based on the many many interactions and letters that we have received over the years as we have tried to have this public conversation about these issues many of you have reached out to us telling us your stories and I I know that dealing with infertility problems can be very emotionally difficult and painful and that the pain of that impact I think sometimes connects differently of men versus women both are find it challenging in different ways I think sometimes women often have a particular vulnerability of thinking thinking about their inability to conceive that somehow that undermines their Worth or their value as a woman and know wife and especially since in light of teaching on Genesis 1 and two that that that's what our bodies have been created to do and you are certainly not alone in that pain I want to affirm those of you who have had reproductive challenges and to think about you know and meditate on this scripture from Samuel chapter 1 The Story of Hannah we just read this last week as a family in our family devotions and it's it's such a great passage to to meditate on with uh with this particular issue of infertility there were two wives um with one husband which is already a setup for a difficult situation and one of the wives was was named panina and she had sons and daughters but to Hannah the other wife um who was really the favored wife of the um what was his name El Elena son of jehoram um that he had a wife named Hannah and he shared whenever he would go to the sacrifice he would bring home meat from the sacrifice as was the custom and he would give a double portion to Hannah and it says verse 5 of 1st Samuel chapter 1 he would give her a double portion because he loved her and the Lord had closed her womb what an interesting and sensitive description that the text has here and then it goes on to say because the Lord had closed Hannah's womb her rival kept provoking her in order to irritate her and this went on year after year describes Hannah's weeping about this her her wounded feelings and then one time she goes up to Shiloh to the Tabernacle and Eli the priest sees her praying there and notice the description here verse 10 in her deep anguish Hannah prayed to the Lord weeping bitterly about her lack of children what a deep pain it was for Hannah to experience that and and he Eli thinks that maybe she's drunk because she's kind of praying silently and she she says no I'm a woman who is deeply troubled I have not been drinking wine or beer I was pouring out my soul to the Lord in verse 15 verse 16 do not take your servant for a wicked woman I have been praying here out of my great anguish and grief Eli has compassion on her at this point he says go in peace and may the Lord of Israel grant you all that you have asked of him and sure enough when we get to verse 20 so in the course of time Hannah became pregnant and gave birth to a son she named him Samuel saying because I asked the Lord for him and so you know infertility is not a new problem it's not a unique problem it is a problem that many women face uh not just today but also in the ancient world and I think it's important to have perspective on that is whatever we are experiencing is not grief or anguish that is uncommon to humanity what we are experiencing today is women have experienced over thousands of years and so um yeah so that's something I just want to bring your attention to like I recognize the struggle and nothing I want to say today should be seen as any sort of condemnation or a lack of understanding of the struggle um and yet we have to have some hard conversation about biblical principles okay there's also from from a Biblical perspective I would argue an underlying assumption in the Bible that childbearing is a result of the Providence of God it is ultimately the decision of God to open and close wombs now this is a very difficult teaching for us today as living in a postmodern world we like to think of our elves and our level of Technology as being Sovereign over our bodies and Sovereign even over things that well maybe historically and primitively there have been um no medical interventions that could make this happen but now we live in a different age we're more Progressive we have more understanding and so I think that there is a tendency to just jump immediately to what's medically possible without as Christians taking a little bit of a step back and thinking about the world view of the Bible and that there is this overarching operating assumption that God is the one who opens and closes wombs and that even Miracles can happen around wombs think think of Elizabeth in Luke chap 1 uh think of was it Rachel who God finally opened her womb and she had Joseph and then Benjamin there is this this assumption that it is God Who does these things and so we have to if we're going to think about conception World viewly we're going to think about fertil world viewly we have to understand that we are standing in the 21st century American context of high technology and wealth and prosperity that makes new things possible how do we balance that with the biblical perspective that there there is this underlying assumption that God is the one who creates life okay and so we we want to think about that yeah Al Susanna says also think about Sarah that is another Supernatural birth Supernatural opening of the womb and and that is a theme in scripture and I would say to those women who struggle with fertility to first and foremost cry out to God that's not to say don't go see your medical doctor that's not what I'm saying I'm not saying don't investigate what the struggles what may be causing the struggles and maybe that there is some thing that can be done um you know to to help with the hindering of fertility not saying don't explore those things but you're going to I think to have a Biblical an integrated biblical worldview you're going to have to do that with the underlying foundational assumption in mind that you are not ultimately in control the medical doctors are not ultimately in control that ultimately it is God and he might be inviting you to call out to him first just as Sarah or Hannah or Elizabeth okay another Point foundational point I want to make and and um we'll get right into the article in just a minute here but I do think that if we're going to think world viewly we've got to take a couple minutes to develop our framework is every every child is a result of the Providence of God it says in Psalm 139 that that children in the womb are fearfully and wonderfully made um Jeremiah chapter 1 verse5 talks about how God knew Jeremiah even when he was in the womb that he had a plan for him to be a prophet to the Nations so there we must understand that life is the result of the Providence of God and um this is this is a very important thing for us to wrestle with now that's not to say and I have my wrestle too there are scriptures in the Bible that I wrestle with too of like I don't like this verse where this is very hard for me it's very emotional for me and it's a struggle and I have to be in it okay so we all might have issues that we must struggle through and that is part of the Christian life but it might be a different issue for each person okay so these are some of the things that I want to point out that all life is the result of the Providence of God so nobody is arguing that children conceived through inital fertilization are less than human or have less dignity than children conceived in the natural way nobody is arguing that point okay every child is beautiful nothing I I'm going to say today uh is about the value of your particular child or grandchild if they were conceived through invital fertilization they are beautiful they are valuable they are created in the image of God with hope purpose and Destiny okay now with all of that said we are going to talk about some biblical principles and the application of these things so that we can have an integrated biblical worldview the final point I want to make is that I see invitro fertilization as a justice issue and here's why I think every Christian needs to Think Through the ethics and theology related to invitro fertilization why is this a justice issue because it involves the most vulnerable among us we're talking about if you if you believe that life begins a conception we're talking about life in Petri dishes of sorts in Labs these are the most vulnerable Among Us they have no voice to protect them and so when we think about injunctions from scripture such as proverbs 31 it says speak for those who cannot speak for themselves for the rights of all who are destitute speak up and judge ferly defend the rights of the poor and the needy um I'm going to add to that really quick James chapter 1 another principle that I think is important for us to consider in this conversation James 1: 27 it says religion that our God accepts as pure and Flawless as this to to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world to look after an orphan is a justice issue it is one without parents it is the most vulnerable Among Us that we must speak up for we need to be a voice for the voiceless and this is why I think IVF is a justice issue that every Christian every Pastor every Christian School administrator every Elder every Deacon every person in the Pew needs to take time to think about because what we're going to see is that around 97% of the children conceived through in vro fertilization don't make it they're disposed of 97% now we'll talk about some exceptions in the technology we'll get there but I want you to understand that if we are going to be a voice for the voiceless this is a justice issue and this is why we must talk about it okay know it's going to be hard um and I know that for some of you this might be a difficult conversation hopefully you'll keep all of my caveats in mind okay now with that let us take a look at this article on the Fox News website this oped by Dr Jeremiah J Johnston now really quickly who is Jeremiah J Johnston well he has a variable alphabet suit behind his name PhD M MD ba he's very educated he is a new he is described as being a new testament scholar Pastor author nationally syndicated radio host Bible teacher and apologist and he minister ERS internationally is the president of Christian thinkers Society that's the website that I'm reading this from Jeremiah loves the local church and he also serves as the pastor of apologetics and cultural engagement at Prestonwood Baptist Church and the dean of Spiritual Development at Prestonwood Christian Academy now if you don't know about Prestonwood Baptist Church or Prestonwood Christian Academy these are fairly huge entities Prestonwood Baptist Church I would characterize as being a mega church this is a person of great influence and education okay and so this is not a person who is not educated there he's an apologist he's a new testament scholar so here's how I think about this I have a lot of Grace and compassion for the person in the Pew who without proper counsel and without proper discipleship had no idea what in the the ethical implications of invitro fertilization are they call themselves prolife but they' participated in this and they they feel regret many of those people have have written to us over the years or maybe this person just doesn't know nobody's ever sat them down and and said hey have you really thought this all the way out you know from a scientific perspective here's what happens and then here's some of the ethical implications of that I have tons of compassion for those kinds of people this is not a condemnation for those people where I have harder questions is what when I'm talking about leaders when I'm talking about thought leaders that I feel like this is confusing to me H how maybe you haven't thought this all the way through I'm concerned I have questions but when you put yourself out there as a thought leader and then you write an opinion piece that gets published on Fox News you are putting yourself out there as someone that you want people to listen to as a person of influence this is where I get a little bit more vocal about my concerns because in my mind and in my way of thinking and I say this with all due respect and humility toward Dr Johnston um I don't know Dr Johnston he's probably never inviting me to speak at Chapel at Prestonwood verision Academy but um you know I I have concerns that that some of the views that he holds are are in my opinion very deeply troubling and against the Christian world view and so I'm a little more publicly I don't want to use the word critical because that's such a negative connotation these days but but I am challenging of people when they are thought leaders okay so let's get into to the oped here and we're just going to read a few highlights you can go read it for yourself this is a live link so it is still up and we will read a few highlights from this starts off with invitro fertilization is widely accepted as a blessing to parents of all religions and political Persuasions thankfully Governor Greg Abbott who is the governor in Texas where Dr Johnston resides strongly supports access to IVF and um the reason he's probably mentioning this is because this oped was originally published in the Dallas um I think Dallas Morning News or something some Dallas Affiliated newspaper and he is right it is universally accepted as as being a blessing um but an Alabama Court decision reignited questions about personhood of embryos that had been put to rest years ago I'm a skeptic of this claim I don't think it was put to rest years ago for reasons that we will get into I think that's an opinion but I don't think it's I I I I question this claim I don't think it was put to rest unfortunately a small but vocal minority I guess that's yours truly I am the small in vocal minority have fixated on this position and a certainly has been no help to the pro-life cause or to families struggling with infertility now I get it like there are some ways that we can talk about infertility that seem very uncompassionate very condemning very judgmental and and that's why I just spent 20 minutes talking about having compassion for people who are struggling with infertility that's not what this is about but at some point we have to talk about the principle and so we we want to be careful with with our words um we want to say things compassionately but at some point people are going to have to be strong enough to have the heart conversation uh if they're Christians and they want to have a fully integrated world view so all right let's continue women struggling with infertility are being shamed with religious jargon where some claim IVF lacks the mystery of natural conception in air quotes I don't know where he's getting that from or that children conceived through IVF are less than human now to my knowledge I have could there be somebody on the internet who makes this claim that children conceive through ibf are less than human anything's possible there are some people with Oddball beliefs out there in the universe but to be very transparent I've never heard a major leader in the pro-life conversation make this claim so I don't know where he's getting this um it just seems like a little bit of a straw Manny kind of claim that people in the proi leaders in the pro-life Community are saying that children conceived through IVF are less than human I've never heard a major leader in the prif community make this claim this seems a little straw Manny again could there be a random person sure there I'm sure that this if we looked hard enough somewhere in the universe there would be somebody making that claim um the topic of infertility is intrinsically personal and ofly often painful especially for women I understand my wife Audrey and I should know there are few things as difficult in a marriage as infertility it's assumed that if you're married and desired children you'll be able to have them that wasn't the case for us many people struggle with infertility as I've stated we struggled with infertility painfully for five long years we tried everything we saw marriage counselors we met with fertility Specialists attended prayer meetings and I'm sure all of that was a difficult Journey for for them together as a couple all the while our friends seemed to get pregnant easily uh social media only added to our pain uh having uh pre negative pregnancy test month after month was different was difficult ult um you know all of these challenges that we faced okay eventually we came to a Crossroads we could give up or we could pursue the modern medical miracle of IVF and he has a very positive view toward IVF calling it a modern medical miracle I'm have a lot of thoughts about this claim but I think I'll just pass on that as it has as it had already been during our doctor appointment science and Faith came together as our quest to be become pregnant our relationship with God was essential and we were inspired to do every everything we could to become pre pregnant which meant financial and emotional risk of IVF now here here's where I think he starts getting into assumptions that you know God was in it God was behind it God's in in the IVF and this is an outcome of their relationship with the Lord with all due respect that's an assumption it that might be true I don't know I have questions So eventually they get pregnant they have five kids and all of that and so here is the the the troubling part we get to what a handful of lawmakers and a few judges fail to understand is that an embryo doesn't always transform into a pregnancy or develop a child that's very true um sometimes the body rejects it sometimes you know this might be a version of a miscarriage these things can happen whether it's entirely in the womb or with the help of medical procedures like IVF now here's the controversial claim that he makes where what he's leading up to an embryo is not synonymous with a child that was true even be before IVF existed only when an embryo successfully attaches in a mother's womb does a child begin its beautiful journey to to soon living an independent life now I was sort of with him when I first read this article up until this paragraph and then I'm like wait what what what is he claiming here that an embryo is not synonymous with a child it is only when an embryo successfully attaches to the mother's womb technically I guess that they're pregnant and that the beautiful journey of living an independent life begins I find this deeply troubling now I'm not a doctor we've had Dr Chris on our show you can go watch those episodes where she breaks it all down medically she's a board certified OBGYN we had her on I don't know a year and a half or so ago she explained all the pregnancy things and the medical things and how it all works but I'm just a regular person so I'm gonna give you the regular person's perspective on this from the time of conception that embryo has its own unique DNA if it is left undisturbed it has the least the potential to become a child it already is a child but to become fully formed and developed just as once you're out of the womb you continue to form and develop into toddlerhood and childhood and teenagerhood and adulthood and Senior Living I mean all the stages of life and so what happens in the womb just another stage of life if we don't kill it we don't freeze it and we don't throw it away we don't dismember it it's gonna it it's it's a child and it's going to live and it already is a living being and its species is human and it has its own unique DNA now I'll Grant you the life is small we're we're we're only a few you know days to weeks into the life of that embryo to say that it's really not I don't know like not a real I don't think he wants to say it's it an he says an embryo is not synonymous with a child well how are we defining child it's it's a human it's on its way into growing if left unhindered it it will have a continuous path forward to development but to say that well the life doesn't really begin until the implantation in the womb that for me was a a big red flag and you know he goes on to say that um the embryo uh I'm going to read this paragraph because make I think it's interesting he says I say this as a pro-life indidual who believes every life is sacred and precious I appreciate this point we agree on this point every life every human life is creating the image of God is has inherent dignity value and worth is sacred and precious we agree on that what I've learned from endocrinologists I think he doesn't mean endocrinologist I think he means embryologists maybe have a little question there maybe somebody with the Science Background can help me out here many sharing the same faith that I do I might add is a help is that a handful of outliers claiming an embryo in and of itself as the beginning of pregnancy simply must understand misunderstand the process well call me an outlier I don't know maybe I should put that in my lower third today I'm the outlier I'm the crazy person who believes that an embryo is actually the beginning of pregnancy now he's making a claim that I have misunderstood the process okay we could debate that claim but um yeah this is this is confusing to me and I am this this claim is not I think consistent with a a true pro-life position um and he goes on to to say something that is very true he acknowledges that using IVF has a high failure rate over the course of time before a natural pregnancy even begins multiple embryos will likely have attempted to attach the loom this future Parents try to have children only 25% of the time are they successful and with IVF multiple embryos are often needed to have the blessing of success for the pregnancy to officially begin but there's a weird in my opinion there is a I'm sorry for using the word weird it's it's um an equivocation here though that I want to draw your attention to I I don't think there's a one-on-one correspondence to a naturally ending pregnancy that just doesn't it doesn't take if you will it doesn't implant in the womb in the uterus versus harvesting a bunch of eggs fertilizing them and then having them as backups if you implant some and they all fail then you have some more that you can implant but if if the first batch does implant then what do you do with those leftovers I don't think those are morally equivalent situations where something that happens naturally versus something that is happening artificially now I could be wrong I'm not a doctor I could be wrong about that but that strikes me as in with a question of I'm not sure that those are morally the same things okay so this is I had a lot of questions after reading this so I went on Dr Johnston's Instagram account he was interacting in the comments with people and I thought well you know I've written some things that people misunderstand and I realized later in hind like wow I could have been more clear or I could have done a better job communicating this so I'm going to go on his feed and Instagram and see if maybe he was unclear maybe he didn't use the best words maybe he's clarifying his position no he's doubling down he he he he wants to use the cover story of well I only had 800 words but what what he's presented here he's he's standing 10 toes down behind what he is saying and so I appreciate his Clarity I I appreciate that he's being clear about his position and he's standing by it and that's great but my My Hope was that maybe he was just unclear or confused and but that didn't seem to be the case in the comments and and he really truly wants to hold a position that IVF is part of the pro-life position and um so you know I I think that I there's just a lot of questions that I would have about about his position um I'm trying to remember and if anyone has been on his comments tell me um whether he limits the use of uh the proced pro uh IVF procedures to biological parents I don't know if he spoke to that I don't think he spoke to that in the article another question he didn't say is how many how many um embryos that they harvested how many are are frozen he did make a comment on Instagram that they have a provision in their will to give those embryos up for adoption in the event of their death um which have some concerns about about that position as well but um I think that be my my my concern with that is that you're setting that child up to be raised from the get-go from without an attachment to their biological parents I I think that that from an ethical perspective is a deeply problematic position in my humble opinion um so yeah it was just it was confusing it was perplexing I had a lot of questions and like no I I just I don't think I I agree with Dr Johnston on these issues all right before we get into Katie's article I want to take a look at the comments here and um let's see Angela Angelica sorry is asking how would you minister to a young woman who's gone through IVF and is a young believer and looks at children as being a blessing for God we're going to cover that toward the end of the stream so stay tuned thank you Ashley she likes my shirt this was the um June 2024 design for pride month um we've done that the last couple of years of having a special limited edition pride month shirt and so this was our one for this year as a special midyear fundraiser um let's see I want to make a comment here about suzanna's comment of IVF feels like people are playing God I think that this is um a comment that we have to be careful about in in talking about it in a nuanced way because there's a way I just I agree with you and there's a way that I disagree with you if we're talking about the creation of life I think we get into very difficult Waters and I'm going to talk toward the end of the street about a narrow way that I think IVF could be ethically used but it has a lot of terms and conditions I think that the way that IVF is used most of the time is really it's just the human will this is what I want and this is a technology that allows me to get what I want and so I'm going to do it as long as I have the money and the means that's where I with all due respect it people who might disagree with me I I do think that there is a a version of that of of playing God um that I will create life simply because I want it if I compare that attitude with the attitude that I was mentioning earlier of of the attitude of I what I would say is kind of the underlying operational belief that God providentially brings about life I I do see those postures as being in in conflict with each other where I would kind of disagree with this idea of playing God is that we do regularly take life-saving measures through modern medicine I am the beneficiary of that I almost died twice in my life and um being in a position I'm very grateful for modern medicine in allowing my life to continue so that I could raise my children and be with my husband and develop a Teaching Ministry I'm grateful that I I I I was my life was able to be saved so is that also playing God like there are some medical interventions that we do that extend our lives and yet then there's other medical event um interventions that we do not participate with um at times because it just seems to go too far and these will continue to be big questions with the growth of transhumanism we did a show about that a few years ago on all the things you can go back and watch that um as we see advances happening through genome um alterations and so we are going to continue to wrestle with these issues and I have to tell you that I am a skeptic of using a lot of these Technologies because I I do think it is a slippery slope I'm just going to put that out there that's my opinion um and yes there is a narrow way in which this technology of IVF can be used ethically we'll talk about that but I think by and large the default practice in big fertility is to do it in an unethical way so there's that all right this debate is so emotionally charged but we as Christians owe it to set aside our emotions as as best we can and really discuss that the stakes are too high not to do so I agree I agree um Amanda says personhood of embryos is at the heart of the abortion debate I agree and that that's really what we're talking about here is I do think embryos are persons they're humans they're um and they they have inherent value dignity and worth even if they are just at the beginning of their lives wow lots of comments all right I'm going to keep going here I know that this is running long sorry about that it's just a lot to cover okay let's get into Katie fa's response now um I'm gonna talk about Katie fa if you don't know Katie F she heads up a Ministry called them before us you can go to her website check her out we did a show with her a few months ago on big fertility very eye-opening show I don't know if any of my moderators are on here but if someone wants to grab that link from all the things that would be a great followup to this conversation and um very very eye openening stream where we went deep into IVF and surrogacy now I get it that Katie is not everyone's cup of tea all right she has a strong personality she's very outspoken and she can come on pretty strong many people have given us the feedback that they hear what she says as accusatory and condemning um we've had many people write to us over the over the years with those kinds of words that they feel judged by her that they don't like her and they don't like her tone these are all things that she hears on the regular none of this surprises her here's how I think about Katie and what she's up to I see her ministry as kind of being in the spirit of the Old Testament prophets uh she is an annoying alarm clock that you have to get out of your warm bed in the morning and walk across the room and get it and slam it to get it to shut up like this is sort of how I see Katie faou is like she's trying to sound the alarm that nobody wants to hear nobody wants to have this conversation it's hard it's emotional people's feelings are going to get hurt and here's this woman going making all these media appearances and writing books and doing all this stuff and she is absolutely clear about her advocacy for The Unborn to the point that it annoys people okay but if we were to talk to Elijah or Isaiah or Jeremiah I have a feeling that we wouldn't like their tone either because part of the job of a prophet is to call people back to the Covenant and in my personal opinion this is the prophetic sense of the gift of Prophecy for today is not about foretelling the future everyone's obsessed with that I actually think that the gift of Prophecy is more about calling people back to Covenant faithfulness like the Old Testament profits and Katie is going hard because she wants to save lives of the most vulnerable Among Us so like her or hater that is her posture I encourage you to read her books and decide for yourself okay but this morning in the Federalist Katie published a pretty hard-hitting piece about the oped by Dr Johnston so her headline in the Federalist this morning was Pastor twist himself in knots to claim being pro IVF is pro-life I'm just going to hit a few highlights here of this discussion and what Katie says as usual with matters of marriage and family the adult frames himself and his wife as victims Johnston details the suffering they've experienced due to infertility well infertility is incredibly painful when we get IVF wrong or any Parenthood question it's the hundreds of thousands of lives discarded and Frozen by the fertility industry who are the actual victims not the adults now this is a hard word this is a hard word but let's consider it okay is it true we don't in our Mo our modern our postmodern American mindset we don't want to think that like well I'm painting myself as the victim that's just not how we want to think about ourselves and yet Katie comes on strong with this this assertion this claim that when when parents are telling their stories and F and trying to in her mind give rationale for why they participate in IVF that it paints them as the victim and what she's trying to highlight is no actually the child is the victim now some people are going to disagree with her some people are not going to like it but here's what I appreciate about what Katie is doing is she has made me think differently about this I I'm just being honest like I never really thought about how the child is the true victim maybe I'm just slow but her beating this drum has caused me to become more aware of who is the real victim in this story and so I think that it it's a hard word I'm only asking you to try it on pray about it think about it and and that sort of a thing okay let's continue here I don't know what his pastoral duties have involved but my Baptist pastor turn Navy chaplain husband and I have been in Ministry for 30 years and I'll tell you something true everyone suffers nearly every Christian I know has some longing let's call it a thorn in their side to which God says my grace is sufficient for you whether it's unwanted same-sex attraction unwanted singleness longing for healed marriage a wayward son a disabled daughter chronic illness or infertility it's hard to name a Christian to whom God doesn't seem to be saying not this side of Heaven I had to take a breath after reading that okay this to me was the most one of the most compelling parts of Katie's response and I think it's worthy of us to slow down and reflect it es you know because we all have struggles if you don't have struggle a struggle in your life congratulations but many of us all have some big issue that we struggle with I struggled with a particular disability for 30 years it's a long road okay um everyone has a struggle a deep struggle a big struggle and infertility is like that thing that for Hannah in 1 Samuel chapter 1 that she cried out in anguish to the Lord and don't we all cry out in anguish to the Lord for our situation and I think that it can be Soul crushing at times when we have our struggles and so I think that Katie is offering a word of caution that's worth trying on weigh it out that infertility is painful as it is as difficult as it is is a thing that we all struggle through in our own way on some issue and that that in some cases might be God's answer to us is not what we want we want healing we want wholeness we want to not deal with this difficult thing anymore and we have to reflect on to what degree am I using my pain my difficulty she's challenging us am I using that as a cover story as a means to an end to participate in IVF in a way that may not be ethical or to Center the child am I putting my needs before the child's needs and that's that's why her Ministry is called them before us in other words them children the child's needs get considered before my needs and my pain as an adult this a hard word okay but I'm putting it out there to try to challenge you to think about pray about and and to to consider okay all right let's continue I I wanted to highlight um here Johnston communicates a misunderstanding of God's will for his people oh let's go back a little bit yes yet the that's the path Johnston and his wife traveled pursuing the modern Miracle medical miracle of ibf and even suggesting that God inspired them to do everything they could do to become pregnant here Johnston communicates a misunderstanding of God's will for his people the Lord does not Inspire us to fulfill our own desires regardless of the cost especially if it forces the weak to sacrifice for the strong rather God mandates that his people defend children this is my point earlier about defending the helpless the voiceless and so Katie is is challenging the mindset that well just because I want something and I have a need and it seems like it will be meaningful to me is is that really in the best interest of the child this is a this is a it's a hard word okay so let's continue Johnston then erects several well stuffed Straw Men the apologist claims women struggling with infertility are being shamed with religious jargon to which some claim IVF lacks the mystery of natural conception or that children conceive through IVF are less human I highlighted this point ear earlier Katie says I work closely with the most staunch prolife and therefore IVF critical voices including Ali B Stucky Lyla Rose the Coulson Center Kristen Hawkins Seth Gruber and Stephanie gr Connors after checking my notes I found that exactly zero say or believe that IVF babies are less than human in fact we repeatedly state every child born through IVF is precious worthy of protection we are so serious ious about child dignity that it forms the basis of every basis of our IVF opposition we have the audacity to actually believe that every child created via IVF deserves protection including the 93 to 97% who do not make it through the process alive and this is the heart of Katie's concern she says I want to be totally consistent with my pro-life ethic and if I'm going to be consistent abortion termination is not our biggest problem our biggest problem of terminating innocent human life is IVF because that process and I'm going to encourage you to do some homework and some research on how the process works but at every stage of the process children will be discarded okay unless you you do it in this very narrow way which I'm going to get to okay but in almost all cases 93 to 9 7% of these children are discarded and Katie says I want to be so consistently pro-life that I'm even acknowledging the humanity of embryos I'm acknowledging their Humanity even before they are planted in the womb and that someone has to be a voice for the voiceless this is a this a is a tough teaching okay um currently if you go on to read the article one and a half million embryos are in Perpetual storage right now there are some of these are deemed not genetically fit or they're the wrong sex and so the problem here is one of child victimization this is this is Katie's primary concern okay let me move forward here Johnston then takes a page from supporters of abortion by seeking to redefine the pro-life position the whole purpose of being pro-life says Johnston is to see the value in children and help moms and dads enjoy their god-given ability to raise them can you notice the wording here how adult centered the wording is this is what Katie is trying to draw our attention to she says hm no the whole purpose of being pro-life is to protect children's lives from forces seeking to Snuff them out because adult desire is being elevated above their fundamental right to life and unfortunately when it comes to embryonic children the baby making industry of IVF is r in up numbers that surpass the baby taking industry of abortion this is K's primary concern she is trying to sound the alarm that if you're worried about abortion baby murder you haven't even begun to scratch the surface of the level of baby murder until you think about IVF now whether you agree with Katie or not I want you to just simply understand her point and what she is trying to say and and she's trying to draw our attention to this very adult centered these are my needs my emotions and I'm not saying that every person who struggles with infertility thinks this way but this is the very common language that she is trying to call out and say wait a minute this is centering the needs of the wrong person we need to be centering the needs of the child finally Katie says this in the wrap up to our article and I do encourage you to go watch read the whole thing on the federal list he wraps up Johnston wraps up by telling us that prohibiting IVF will indeed prevent children from entering the world the stomach churning reality is IVF intentionally prevents the majority of children it the majority of children it creates from entering the world already the 2% of children born via IVF today are only a fraction of those who have had their unfortunate beginning in a laboratory IVF is a death sentence for the majority of lives it creates if her statistics are correct that only 2% come to term and are born let's double it let's say 4% okay that still means that the default position is a lot of baby murder it's a lot and we have to be aware of that okay um okay I'm GNA take a look at the comments here somebody says sort of like child trafficking in fact I want to encourage you to go check out our conversation with Katie we address that issue in detail in our conversation with her from a few months ago on all the things you will not want to miss that section it changed my mind about some things how would you differentiate when them when exploitation seems to be at the heart of both I think you're talking about between human trafficking and IVF I think this is a bigger problem in the surrogacy conversation but it it is related to the IVF conversation too and what Katie calls the commodification of children um so yes um Mara is saying they grade the embryos and Destroy lowgrade ones yes that is a part of the default way of doing it now I've been teasing throughout this string that there is a narrow way of participating in IVF technology that is can be seen within the bounds of historic Christianity and um the pro-life mve mement I want to draw your attention to this article on the Gospel Coalition website how IVF can be morally right by Dr Wayne gudum it came out in 2019 I'm not going to take the time to read all of this but um there's some areas I I agree in some areas I disagree but I want to draw your attention to a few points um while I do believe modern medicine is in general a divine blessing and morally good I I think it's also corrupt and I've become more skeptical of it since um the events of 2020 and following uh but I do agree and appreciate his point we should treat an unborn child as a human person from the moment of conception so this includes embryos and IVF context and this is the important one children should only be conceived by and born to married men and women nobody cares about this issue in big fertility nobody's if you walk into a fertility clinic nobody's going to ask you like why are you married and and you know we're only providing these services for male female couples no this is a technology that allows anybody to conceive a baby um if as long as they got the right body parts it doesn't matter whether you're married unmarried married in a triplicate whatever it is uh same sex different sex doesn't matter from the biblical perspective if you're going to participate in this technology to do it ethically it needs to be between a married man and a woman um I would add to that that now this is a controversial position I would add to that that an ethical treatment of IVF ought to include the the genetic material from that married couple and not using the donations of a stranger now Katie makes this case in her book then before us and how it commodifies participants and that there is research that the child it has an impact on the child the child longs to know their biological parents even if it was just a sperm donor or a egg donor there's something innate in us that wants to know where we came from and it this is not like adoption where we're trying to rescue a a trauma and trying to make the best of it and bring Redemption to a trauma in the IVF scenario and in the surrogacy scenar scenario the adults in the in the situation are intentionally most of the time introducing other adults the child has no say over and we are separ SE ating that child from their biological parent or parents and separating that child from the woman who carried them in her womb and so this is in my opinion ethically very problematic now if you go to a fertility clinic and you're a Christian couple and you're married and a male female relationship and you can use the genetic material from those two people I would say that that helps to overcome a lot of the obstacles okay and so again this is a controversial position I recognize that some Christians will have differences of opinions about this but um I'm just trying to explain my reasoning and you can read more about that in Katie's book Katie is not in principle against all I IVF I talked to her this morning to clarify her position and she says no that's not her position she stops short of saying that she's against all IVF she just thinks that in most cases it's not ethically done it's possible but it's not done so if you go to a a a infertility Clinic they're not going to sit down with you and say well what are your religious concerns and what are the parameters in which you want to participate in this process you're going to have to be assertive and informed and explain to them how you will and will not participate and whether or not you will put embryos through genetic testing or sex testing and all of that the other big problem is the harvesting of embryos or enough eggs to to make these embryos and then putting the embryos together so let's say and and harvesting is is a whole difficult process in and of itself and they always want you to Harvest more than they're going to implant because they want to do these genetic test tests on embryos and and and select the best ones and and all of this so they they want to harvest let's say I'm GNA use a hypothetical they want to harvest 10 but maybe they're only going to implant three okay well what happens to the other seven well maybe two are destroyed because they're genetically inferior or it's not the right sex the the couple wants to have boys and these are female okay so maybe some are discarded some are frozen well let's say they implant three which they don't always implant three sometimes they implant many more than three and then they have selective abortions later to reduce it down to a number that the that the woman can handle um now the exception being that what was that case like 25 years ago with the woman who had like eight children and she carried them all a term and they had gone through I F and and um they were Christians so they weren't going to abort any of their children and so you know like it can be done but if they all take the way that we were instructed in my ethics class 30 years ago is you should only implant the number of children that you are willing to raise now not all of them may survive but to do it ethically you need to give instructions no I don't want you to implant eight unless you're okay with raising eight imp plant the number that you feel like is a parent you want to you you feel like you can morally and adequately handle as a parent so you're not going to go through selective abortions you're not going to um do that so you're going to have to be clear about how you're going to participate in the technology again it's not the default they're not going to bring it up but then what do you do with the ones that are left on Ice okay if we're pro if we believe the life begins at a conception you have triplets and then five years later you're like I'm done having kids I can't handle any more kids but you still have five on Ice then what are you doing well you can donate them to research where they just basically dismember them or you can donate them to an adoption agency it's called snowflake adoption um but then okay here's my ethical problem with that is that if you're intentionally separating this child from their parents because you harvested too many embryos you're making a decision for that for that child so you centered your own needs first to have children and now you have these children that are frozen and then you're going to put them up for adoption this is where it becomes very difficult to me and so I think that yes there is a way to participate with IVF that is consistent with the pro-life ethic but you're going to have to work very hard and be very informed and explain very clearly how you will participate with this technology and still you might end up with frozen embryos and you will be on the horns of another another dilemma with that um no it wasn't octo Mom it's the McCoy babies I think was their name McCoy something like that so okay hopefully you found this helpful that's kind of my attempt to lead in a conversation about what's happening right now on this whole IVF issue and so let me wrap up with this this and a few thoughts of practical application where do we go from here and I want to make very clear like I am against all baby murder I'm against baby Murder By murder I'm defining it as the willful intentional taking of an innocent human life I'm against baby murder in the womb I'm against baby baby murder in Petri dishes and in Laboratories I'm against baby murderer nut throws away embryos to be honest in most cases I'm kind of against freezing embryos I just this is an opinion Christians can differ about this but I I just think that it devalues the image of God in that embryo and I I have deep concerns about the whole freezing thing but um what is the way forward I think the number one way forward is education we've got to raise more awareness about this because higher and higher numbers of people are participating in IVF Christians are participating in IVF and they don't they many of them do not really understand the technology or how it works so I want to encourage everyone who listens to this do some homework research the issues research the science and then consider the implications of the technology in light of the biblical position the pro-life position and equip yourself so that when you're sitting over coffee with somebody you're ready for that conversation you're ready to speak into that into the pain of that infertile person and their struggle you're ready to speak into that with some biblical wisdom but also to try to guide them in a compassionate and careful conversation of the issues if you have children or grandchildren that were conceived as a result of IVF um I want to encourage you to get into a conversation with the Lord about his truth and wisdom for you I don't know what he has for you in that to learn um I'm trusting the Holy Spirit to communicate with you into your personal situation as you pray into that he might call you to repent for your motives I don't know he might call you to some kind of repentance but I want to encourage you not to drown in the struggle of regret parenting regret is some of the worst kind of regret and God has forgiveness for you and there is Grace for you there is compassion for you and again this is not a conversation about the Dignity of your children or your grandchildren this is a conversation about the human heart heart and bringing your thoughts feelings and opinions in line with the word of God pastors I want to strongly encourage you to start teaching about IVF from the pulpit and equip yourself in a p for pastoral pastoral counseling contexts educate yourself on the issue and please I'm kind of begging you have some courage be a leader and stop being vague and General in your support for the pro-life position be specific um if you're considering IVF I also hope that you will educate yourself and research the issues but those are some ways forward I hope that you found this stream helpful and I'm going to read through comments one more time okay Susanna is asking a good question is it unethical for a single person adopting a frozen fertilized egg oh this is such a conundrum because already we have a situation in play that never should have really been there because we've used a technology that is in some sense unnatural but then you get into the conversation of well is life better than no life and being discarded and you know I think that a case could be made for that but then you're going into it I I would discourage I don't know it's a tough issue because I do think that a child has a natural human right to a mother and a father now that's not to say that it always happens in every case some cases are painful I grew up without a father divorce happens in cases of abuse and that sort of a thing so it's not the ideal but I think that to to separate out a child from their biological parent or parents with intentionality from the beginning is kind of problematic and so I to add another wound to that child to raise them without a father and a mother that's a tough one for me so I I would be kind of a no but I can understand the the reason it says well isn't it better to be raised by a single parent than to die in a lab I can get that reasoning yeah okay let's see here this is helpful thank you in light of all this should it be our goal to ban IVF or call for a more ethical practice well if we we're far away from Banning it I don't see that in the future um but I definitely think Christians could advocate for more ethical practices of it I think that would be a step in the right direction um but we I think that that's why Katie's work is so important is make she's trying to make the case that the child has rights I'm going to say something controversial I don't think that people have a right to children I I I am not persuaded from scripture that a parents have rights to children to conceive I just I don't believe that um so if a child has a natural right to a mother and a father and there's a technology that separates that child from those parents I think that Christians need to vocally and carefully Advocate against it so that's my position um yes someone wants to know about my shirt yes it's it was an exclusive during the month of May for pride month and it is only available during the month of May our special pride month designs we had one last year for June and we had one this year for May so it's not on the website okay um Lots of comments thank you very much you guys um I really appreciate you being here with me and having this conversation children are gifts God gives the gift that's a that's a good summary thank you Kelly um so I look forward to your feedback I know there was some hard things in here I tried to cover it as best I can in a compassionate way send me your hate mail your angry letters that's okay I can take it but also let me know how it was helpful for you what you learned I would love to hear that and what you're thinking about and how maybe it made you think differently thank you so much for being here I know it was a long one thanks for hanging out with me we will see you very soon [Music] the [Music]