Dr. Jordan Wicks: Pork Quality & Consumer Appeal

Introduction when we think about meat quality uh it's actually probably best to think about it from a consumer standpoint right because at the end of the day what we're trying to do is is provide a a wholesome safe and high quality product well what does quality mean to a consumer it can mean a lot of things um but traditionally we think about quality as uh color texture um or water holding so we don't want like drippy um type of products that we want but we want tenderness um and and some sort of usually there's some sort of component around lean to Fat ratios you know when we think about beef we're thinking about [Music] marbling welcome everybody to the swine at Canada podcast I am Dan Columbus and I will be your host for today's episode and with me today I have Dr Jordan Wix who is an assistant professor and meat extension specialist at the University of Nebraska Lincoln so welcome to the show Jordan hey thanks for having me yeah it's uh great to to have you on and I'm looking forward to the discussion today before we get into that though I'll just ask because some of our people might not be uh aware of who you are and everything I'll just ask you to introduce yourself and kind of give us an idea of your journey so far yeah absolutely so uh I grew up in Central Illinois um and I participated in 4 and FFA and that's really where I got into animal agriculture uh and I was on the meat judging team so that kind of opened up a world uh to me at a very young age about meat processing and I was also on the livestock judging team so I was able to kind of look at the the the production side and how that translates into uh into what we consume right on a regular basis and so uh as I started going uh through my collegiate career I started uh at Southern Illinois University and I I studied just animal science there and then went down to Auburn where I studied um meat science with an emphasis in pork quality so I did some uh preh Harvest uh feeding trials to kind of see how that could impact and influence Port quality and and pre Harvest Food safeties uh with reductions hopefully and pathogens like Sal Manilla and so we were feeding a a plum juice extract um back then and to kind of see how that would influence uh the quality and the safety of the product once I graduated there in about 2012 I headed uh to Northern Alabama where I open I did not open I was the manager of a brand new P processing facility uh called fatback Pig and so I was there and I helped kind of kind of get that plant reconstructed and built it was an old abandoned um building that we kind of remodeled into a pork processing facility where we were aiming to kind of keep kind of a fresh and and uh pork streaming through the southeast and so I was there for a little over a year as the manager uh we were able to get that facility up to about 100 Pigs a day at a time um and then from there I went down and I worked at a fork Sausage Company a smoke sausage company in South Alabama uh where we focused on really just taking one one type of product that smoke sausage and and making that really exceptional um and so that was keka sausage which is pretty popular in the Southeast uh uh portion of the United States and so that was a great experience where I learned a lot more about large scale production of for for quality uh and how we can ex uh Advance some of the production and products that that Port can offer um again I was there for for a little over a year there as well and then I finally headed out to Virginia to be the Meat Lab manager at the University at Virginia Tech and while I was there I was teaching training students doing H beef and pork research and then somewhere in there I decided I was going to get my PhD uh while working full-time um and so I completed that just last year before heading out here to Nebraska uh where I am the meat extension specialist and so that that kind of means that I'm here to help our industry Partners whether they be um you know large scale processors which there's a lot of those out here in Nebraska that's kind of where we're centralized uh for being a meat processing State here in the United States and then um I also work with small processors here as well and I've been um kind of trying to get uh some relationships built with with some of our producers and our and our port councils and beef councils to kind of make sure that we have that connection right between live animal and and the product and and how that kind of bridges the Gap there uh so that's kind of where I've been and where I'm at now and uh kind of looking forward to um you know the potential that we have to to really Defining meat quality start expanding as we grow a larger population um throughout the the globe and so I'm here to kind of help move that in the right direction as a researcher and as an extension specialist yeah definitely seems like you're the right person to have on for this topic I don't think I've seen somebody so focused on that the area for so long so that that's great I also say you know you must be a glutton for punishment if you work full-time and do the PHD at the same time this so good job for that yeah that was a wild time I don't know what I was thinking but it it's done in it I don't regret it but it was challenging oh definitely um so I I think before we get going because obviously we're going to talk about me quality but this is I I think a term that we throw around a lot and we don't necessarily always know what we mean when we say that so I guess what what is your definition of meat quality like what goes into that uh that term so when we think about meat quality uh it's actually probably best to think about it from a consumer standpoint right because at the end of the day what we're trying to do is is provide a a wholesome safe and high quality product well what does quality mean to a consumer it can mean a lot of things um but traditionally we think about quality as uh color texture um or water holding so we don't want like drippy um type of product so we want but we want tenderness um and and some sort of usually there's some sort of component around lean to Fat ratios you know when we think about beef we're thinking about marbling and uh that isn't always a term that's been considered when we think about for but I think these days it's becoming more of a convers ation of that with a lot of Heritage breed excuse me breeds um that that deposit more of that uh of that intramuscular fat those little white Flex that you see that provide flavor right so when we think about quality um you know we can also think about the safety of that that's part of it but the traditional sense is kind of your color your visual appeal your your texture your flavor um kind of those sensories that you're going to grab from the appearance to the eating experience yeah so when we talk about pork I guess specifically it kind of comes to mind you know see we talk about marbling and all that which is one of the things we focus so much on lean in our pigs right so it's actually resulted in what what I've heard is more like a reduction in perception of the quality just because it's become dry and you know the taste isn't there so maybe what are some of the the the challenges that we're having when we're looking specifically at Pork uh meat quality yeah so I think some of the challenges that we are still dealing with our are actually a little bit um Challenges in pork quality you know rooted years and years ago which was if you think back probably around the 90s you know we were really trying to get that that that lean hog and and um so that really reduced a lot of of a lot of our fat content and remember fat is where we're going to find flavor so we reduced a lot of that in our genetic lines and and that um altered a little bit of our quality in that sense um but then they had marketing campaign the pork the pork Council or pork board did which was the other white meat that was in the 90s I remember I was younger back then because it was kind of a red meat was bad for heart health cholesterol so they said well when you cook it it's white right so it was other white meat um and so I think really what we did to Consumers at that time is we trained them that pork needs to be needs to be white right when it's fully cooked and acceptable and safe to eat U that's not necessarily the case per se um but I think that that's a a lot of us uh especially my age range you know grew up in the late 80s 90s 2000s that's kind of what we were targeted now now we know that we can safely consume Fork at about 145 degrees Fahrenheit and I know we have some listeners up there in Canada so I don't know what that converts to um to the Celsius I apologize but somebody can do a quick Google search on that for you um so about 145 degrees let it rest for about three minutes we can really hit that um that the food safety level that we need to be at as well as not Opportunities for producers overcooking it and drying it out because because it doesn't have as much fat we can dry that product out pretty quickly if not if not cooked properly so those are some of the struggles we're dealing with um and trying to market for um you know I've sat through uh some some recent discussions with some meat scientists um at some of our national meetings and here even here in Nebraska where they talked about you know we're having a lot of trouble selling por a lot of trouble selling pork we can sell bacon we can sell sausage that's not a problem but selling you know whole muscle pork chops and and and cuts like that it becomes a little bit difficult and I think a lot of that is U the history of pork not that it's not that pork is bad it's just that we have trained our consumers and it took us years to do that and now we kind of in that transition and now consumers look different you know we we are thinking about different types of things we want to have these you know these flavors we want to see uh more fat and content on our on our product because we understand that's where the flavor comes from and so changing a production and changing the consumer it's going to take time to do so but you know as both production livestock and as meat scientists you know we're working together to help improve this product to make it more consumer acceptable because at the end of the day we need the consumers to we need to deliver what the consumers want right so if their complaints are that it's not uh as flavorful as beef or is it's not as cost effective as chicken or it's not uh or it's too dry these are things that we need to pay attention to and listen to and we are and we're working on that so I mean now we could work on what are the opportunities or what can we do about it then right maybe let's start with the producer because that's obviously the the first thing is what what what we're doing in the barn so what are things that maybe some producers could do to help uh improve that meat quality you know I'm not entirely uh in the in the production setting very much anymore uh so you know I think something that we've seen in some other Industries is that we try to push we try to push uh chicken's a great example right we can grow chickens very fast uh chickens have moved to a very white you know uh lean right um even even the rther muscles like the thigh they're still pretty pretty white and so that's a that's a that's a part of that reason is our genetics and and how we grow those animals um I've sat in some rooms they say well maybe we're moving these pushing these pigs too hard and we're kind of getting into that same thing where we can see quality defects we want to put we want to put lean meat on them right we want them to grow and be efficient but that there are challenges of how to to to um kind of balance that and so you know from a production standpoint I don't know exactly the diet or the formula that we need to do to to optimize that but I think one thing that a producer needs to think about is you know what is it that the consumers want when you sit down as a pork producer uh what do you like about pork and what do you not like about por communicating that to um the meat processors and the meat scientists in your in your communities in your state and your in your countries that's important for us to know um you know what I said like I said I was in a meeting with a bunch of pork producers and they said well I don't eat pork when I go to a restaurant I'm I'm a pork producer myself I don't eat pork when I go to a restaurant that seems kind of crazy right yeah that's what I thought when he that's what I thought when he said it and he goes he goes because I don't think that they know how to I don't think I think that I can cook a better pork chop than the chef can right because they don't they think that they can't handle it right or that they add a bunch of they said the pork chop they were trying to sell that at this specific restaurant this this man was at uh they said well they were gonna put this all these sauces and and different things on top of it he goes you know I just want a good quality pork chop I don't need all these things on top of it gravies or or whatever and so I think that a little bit of of this needs to be where you get everybody in a room where you get the meats you know you get the producers you get the meat uh scientists and the industry partners and you get the chefs and and and the consumers and everyone needs to think about this as a consumer we are consumers whether we're the producer or the processor at the end of the day we kind of sit down and think well what do I like about it what don't I like about it right um but one thing that that has uh something that's that's really great about the pork industry is that it's it's very versatile product it it takes on to a lot of different flavor profiles um it does great and you know we're here in the United States so we we have a a big barbecue industry that's very popular and then you know we're able to do a lot of uh Unique Products you know we can take that that product and we can turn it in to um bacons and hams and different types of sausages that can be done a lot of different ways patties links Etc and so there's a lot of Versatility to that product that consumers really do uh enjoy right that's something that you know there's not beef beef is great and the fact that it's you know we can sell beef we're we're a beef steak we we can we like our steaks but you know when you go well let's let's see if we can you know make a really unique product with beef that could be uh consumer ready and easy to find in your retailer they it's a little bit trickier there right um so a lot of the different flavor profiles that work really well pork don't work with beef and so there's a big Market to really expand on what we can do and I think that there's there's a lot of work being done right now um with trying to kind of conceptualize how we can make uh it more uh consumer friendly ready to go um and convenient for consumers as well so then switching to the processor then what are things then that the processor specifically can do and I assume this is going to be more in your wheel hose so yeah so yeah I'm definitely a processor uh through and through so the things that the processors can do is is they can really start to to look at the type of workk that they're getting in um the pigs that they're getting in you know are a lot of processors now are getting in Heritage breeds which have a little bit more fat to them um and so how those cut and how those yield are much different than your standard commercial Hogs um so the one thing that you know you can kind of think about is you know when you when you look at this pork as a processor is it the right color is it the right texture Ork is really um susceptible to to um temperature um whether it's really warm on your harvesting floor whether it's too cold in your coolers uh or the transition in between them and so that can really alter uh kind of where you're at on that are you skinning the Hogs are you Dearing the Hogs that can play a role in some of that quality and so you know to really sit back and look you know i' I've worked in a lot of different facilities and we the I I worked at one and and uh we had a really pale pork no matter what we did um but I think that that was a lot of it coming from the genetics we really tried processing them a lot of different ways and every time you you started uh you know to process those they were just pale um and so some of that is the diet some of that is the genetics um but a lot of that can be kind of handled from a processing and changing your your strategies and your techniques one thing I saw years ago in some of my research uh uh with my with my research group out in Virginia um we were looking at two toning so you could kind of get Processing techniques dark spots light spots especially in the hams and so we we started to kind of think why are we getting these two tonings and color right if you saw me in the counter and it had two different shades of of of red or white you know you might go oh I don't know about that one and you might look over it right well this was becoming kind of a large problem in our region and so we started looking at that and we found that you know if we can delay the time that we put him through the DEH we could really increase and and and the the pigment of that so it was more of a a pink color rather than a a white color and we can make it more U cohesive right less of a gradient across the muscle um and so you know even simple things like that we were able to kind of uh manipulate how the muscle transitions from muscle to me and and controlling those processes is is pretty critical especially for pork quality um because they PK quality is also something that can be not only susceptible to discoloration but also a lot of uh drip loss or Purge um which consumers you know we don't want to see that in our packages and we definitely don't want to pay per pound for a bunch of water sitting in our package so the more that we can do to protect that conversion of muscle to meat to to protect the Integrity of that through our processing techniques um we can make sure that there's a a a high quality product for our consumers so things like that another thing that you can think about about as a processor to kind of uh have some advantages with your pork is is looking to it as the consumer are you looking at it uh meaning are we trying to Market this product to the best of its potential so for example um hams are pretty seasonal right bone in hams you're GNA get those around the holidays uh you may have a big dinner once or twice a year where you need to feed a lot of people so you know that may not be the process that you want to take right we go well we're not selling pork right now well are you making it is it is it fitting the season is it fitting the T the climate that's the consumer that's the times and because it is versatile and because we can make it into sausages because we can make it into nice deli meats you know maybe maybe now is not the time for um a a bone and ham but maybe it is the time for a a slice of uh lunch meat right where where people are out have picnics and down by the pools and beaches this is the time to make those products instead so keeping it in in mind a little bit about the consumer the season that can really help um with that so I think one of the things that I think I would like to point out is is how do we do this how do we make pork uh really hit its value and and appeal to our consumers it takes everyone right we need to we need to start with a high quality product and so if you come in and and you're looking at your pork and you go I don't know this is this is looking pale this is looking too light Too Fat Etc you know you can go back to the producers hey these are really not hitting our metrics it's hard for us to process this um but on the other hand we need to as processors we need to really think about the consumer and so if everyone's kind of working together and having that open line of communication you know we can really um continue to build this industry uh up and and we need to as we're going to continue to increase the the global uh population we're going to need more protein um for for consumers of the world right I I I particularly like your your thing you know where you're saying well if this isn't the season for this product then let's find another one because it it strikes me as as soon as the product disappears from consumer's view it's now out of sight out of mine and now you got to build that up again right and so always having some option available seems like something that would be very important EXA exactly and and and remember not uh not every consumer is the same you know and and consumers look a lot different than they used to um you know before consumers were families and there was someone there to prepare the food now consumers may be um you know one one person in the household they may be a single right they may have kids um they may have elderly people there they're all and some are on the go and some have time to cook and some don't know how to cook and some don't like to cook and so the convenience the differences in packaging differences in packaging has been really helpful um for for me as a small processor right so if I want to make pork chop like I'm G to cut pork chops um I'll have consumers come in to have fam so four to six pork chops is a great package but that's not a great package for a lot of consumers right for for the for the the parents whose children have left home and went to college or have moved out they don't need six pork chops they need two pork chops right so even if you take the same product and you package it two three different ways you'll find that that helps move that product right and having convenient in packaging um so things that people can you know put in their fridge or in their freezer so vacuum packaging mat packaging those type of things are really helpful um to add some flexibility like I don't have to eat this tonight if I buy it I don't have two days right so if you go to the grocery store and you think about your Marketability strategies overwrap which is that that real thin film on a on a tray you usually have about three days tops in your refrigerator before you're going to kind of get towards that that um potential for spoiling or going kind of bad sour so if you put it in a different type of packaging something that it's vacuum sealed or has a map package right think about how hot dogs and things are package or even resalable things that allows for some ex extension in that and and and that's helpful for Consumer consumers enjoy that idea and and so those are things that you could add pretty easily into your into your process you you kind of started delving into my next question was was going to be marketability of the pork so you know you've mentioned packaging and and how we do that are there other things that processors can do and I mean is that different also if you're talking about say like the small smaller scale or your your local butcher uh and what they can do so marketability you know from a from a large commercial standpoint um you know they've already thought of all these things I'm not telling them anything new These Guys these guys have been doing this for a long time but I know there's a lot of a turnover in our small processors here we have a lot of people that have retired their their next Generation has taken over or they or people have bought the businesses from the local community um one thing to think about is how do we take um and make this marketable especially from people who want to buy whole Hogs or a half of a hog um what do we do with that well when you think about a hog on the rail it's about 200 pounds okay and that's what the skin on so we take the skin off we can be a little bit less but what's what's marketable in that and so you know if if somebody wants sausage and they want three to four different types but they also want pork chops and hands there's not enough product there so really communicating that and even if you're in in a larger sales uh position with with a meat company communicating that to your end user whether that's the whether that's uh maybe your end user is a large grocer maybe your end user right they're the ones buying it or maybe it's hotels and restaurants or maybe it's it's just an individual who comes into your store but helping them understand here's what is possible out of out of this right and so you know if you want this C certain kind of cut you may have to buy another type of cut right or you may have to sacrifice this if you wants that I remember um years ago I was talking with a large processor and and they said U this was a beef product and they wanted to to move a portion of this and they well we can sell you this like stir fry type product but if we cut it like this you have to buy the rest of this Primal right and so because they're like otherwise we can't move it if we cut up the certain piece and that's kind of how it goes for pork there's different things that we can do with pork but if it may need you to buy the extra part of that if you are a larger and so being kind of creative in that sense but also if you're in the small processor side how do we add marketability how do we add value how do we add uh is is by helping the consumer or your customer understand that you know if you want a Boston butt and you want a ham and you want bacon there's not a lot of meat left to work with sausage right so how do we do that so helping them understand what they're doing I think a lot of times people are buying whole Hogs or they're buying um products and they don't know what that mean right and if you're if you're a processor who's getting stuck with a lot of products let's say you're getting stuck with hams okay it's it's not really ham seasoned you don't do deli meats at your at your facility how do we how do we move this product this is where some of that creativeness comes up and and one thing I've always thought about hams is you know they're actually perfect for small rows I don't think they get marketed that way a lot of times but a nice fresh ham roast you know that you can put in the oven you can maybe inject it with some sort of uh marinade or seasoning right to kind of make it a unique flavor um have it kind of already ready to go into a crock pot an oven right onto the grill cut nice little thin cutlets out of that I mean just because you don't see it in the store every day doesn't mean it can't be done and it doesn't mean that people wouldn't buy it you just have to remember that there is some really high value um cuts that can come out of a lot of different muscles they just need to be thought about a little different you may need to put a little bit of extra work into them to help make it markable to the consumer but the biggest thing is you have to educate your consumer so if you want to take a ham and let's say we're taking the the inside ham muscle and we're going to cut it into cutlets okay and maybe we'll marinate them even maybe who knows we can do whatever we want but what I need to do is I need to make sure that my consumers get educated so you know with the with the help of social media with the help of of you know taking pictures writing little things that can really help to educate them you can make a quick video and that helps they go oh I see how that's done yeah that sounds great I'll have that for dinner and then they can come in and get that but the education is key and part of that education goes back to the beginning of this conversation which is we've got to make sure that consumers understand that we can cook for 145 degrees and if we get past that it may get a little dry it may get a little tough definitely some Food For Thought I think we could talk about this for much longer but we are getting close to the end of our time yeah so I'll just ask you know before we get to our final three questions uh for a take-home message that you want listeners of this episode to to kind of bring with them yeah I say the the take-home messages here is that um you know I've heard a lot in the last several months that you know pork is is difficult to sell right now we're having trouble marketing it and that just kind of blows my mind and so I think that if we kind of come together as as a collective industry and Community you know and talk about what what is good and what is is is our our challenges um and and work together as a group to overcome those I think getting everyone in in the room at the same time is is really going to be critical as we move forward as an industry definitely it's time for our famous three working with nature and not against it piglets fed ax3 see significant and improved feed efficiency producers know the reality of needing to reduce antibiotic and zinc use ax3 digest is a highly digestible novel protein that promotes improved in barn performance piglet health and minimizes the need for zinc in the diet for more information visit www.pr protector.com that's www.pr tek.com so our last three questions that every guest gets asked uh so our first one is what is your favorite swine related resource so because I'm a meat scientist I don't necessarily oh just focus specifically on swine um when I think about where would I go to find some sort of helpful information I go back to my education which was the principles of meat science textbook um when you think about that book it's called the principles it takes you back to the fundamentals the basics it helps you to remember what's going on why it's going on how happens from the science all the way to the to the consumer and so you know using that as a refresher is always a great place for me to start when I start having questions or concerns go back to that as an index there yeah it's I there's sometimes where I regret that I disposed of things from my education that I thought I'd never use again and now I'm like oh I wish I had that because it was yeah we'll never do that textbook again yeah absolutely I hear you I've also find myself in that situation yeah uh so our second question is uh a favorite book or resource outside of Agriculture meat science pigs so this could be anything so I think uh my favorite resource it's not necessarily a book or anything like that I think it's actually the the producers and the processors and the consumers those are always a great place to start and to finish right so if if I don't know what's going on H going and talking to someone out in the industry uh as an academic you know you sometimes you sit at your behind your desk and and I'd like to think as an academic I'm out out there doing it a quite a bit but sometimes you do find yourself behind the desk and so really a great resource is to go out into the field and ask them what's going on what are you seeing what's happening H where are our problems where are our opportunities and let's go about it that way yeah rate from The Source yeah definitely yeah Straight From the Source y That's exactly a great resource so then our our last question and then I'll let you go you know what do you think is a characteristic that uh leaders or mentors that are particularly successful like what do they all share I think the one thing that uh you know when I think about successful uh people in the industry or mentors of mine that I that I've always looked up to I think really what it comes down to is grit passion it all comes from within right um the ones who really have made sacrifices uh and you know to to move uh the industry forward to move uh you know their their colleagues forward those are the type of things you see so sometimes you know they're in there on the Saturday sometimes you know they're going to they're going to be up there late at night or you know maybe they don't take summer vacation but it's because they're passionate it's because they have grit it's because they have perseverance and so those are the type of qualities I think that really set apart right and and those are what's make really great leaders in our industry the ones who've really leaned into it h head first there yeah vacation what's that exactly exactly yeah okay well it it's been great having you on very interesting discussion uh definitely because you know like you just said you're about a year in so I'm I'm looking forward to the stuff that you find out in your career will definitely have you back on yeah yeah I'll get you some updates here in another couple years it sounds good thanks a lot