[Music] from the news rooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and the age this is the Morning Edition I'm Samantha Salinger Morris it's Thursday September 12th it was one of the most highly anticipated debates in modern politics a verbal showdown between Donald Trump and kamla Harris because for millions of Americans the stakes couldn't be higher for many a trump win will Stoke fears of a more autocratic United States and for countless others a Harris win would mean a move against conservative beliefs today North America correspondent Farah Thomason on how the candidates who were neck and neck before the debate might Fair now and the viable moments we can't stop talking [Music] about so Farah a reported 230 million Americans said that they were going to watch the debate yesterday and I think you and I can both agree it was a wild ride so let's start with how the candidates managed the liabilities that they each brought to this debate let's start with kamla Harris do you think that voters Beyond her base actually know who she is now and what she stands for because this has been a weakness until now according to some commentators yeah look it has been a bit of a weakness for carela Harris I mean we have to remember that President Joe Biden only stepped down uh I think it was July the 21st and even though kamla Harris is vice president and has been for the last uh three and a half almost four years she is still the Lesser known candidate compared to Donald Trump on that debate stage and she's one that is I suppose essentially tied to the Biden administration's perceived failures over the past four years so in that sense she did have a lot more to prove but I think in this particular debate um she really did what she set out to do she pitched herself as a as a new generation candidate and she repeatedly hit out at Donald Trump you know branding him a convicted felon a global disgrace um and you know yesterday's man essentially so look I I think she did in a sense acquit herself of of some of the liabilities that she's had and I think overall she had a pretty good debate and what about a particular weakness you know that she's to blame for America's inflation problem you know there were some polls in the weeks leading up to this debate indicating that Trump really did have the upper hand on who was more trusted with the economy so this was a big issue for her how did she go look I think she did um pretty well I mean I thought it was pretty good that she did use the first question on the economy to kind of really lean into her plan for I guess what she calls an opportunity economy she she did try to cut into Donald Trump's advantage on this issue most voters in America tend to believe that he would do a better job with the economy so she tried to I suppose present herself as the candidate of the middle class while portraying Trump as a sort of a corporate tax cutter a friend to billionaires and um somebody that basically you know would be sort of self- serving and in his own interest her broad overall plans I guess on the economy what she presented tonight you know she's vowed to tackle saring grocery prices she's vowed to make housing more affordable she's about to you know give tax cuts to families if she becomes the next president so you know she she did sort of try to portray herself as that middle class kid and uh you know somebody who can understand the plight of middle class people so she she did sort of try to cut into the um into the economic advantage that Donald Trump has but do you think that Trump had a point though that perhaps she was leted on policy he tried to knock her down by saying that you know she copied Biden's plan it was like four sentences and I'll quote him he said it was like Run Spot Run oh we'll try and lower taxes so did he have a point look she was pretty light on policy and and look this particular night did not present any further details of of policies that have not already been put on the table um so to that extent yeah she she Trump did have a bit of a point but she simply articulated a lot of the policies that she does have on on the agenda and and you've got to remember a lot of people in America have not actually been tuning into this particular election I mean they say that Labor Day is really uh which was a couple of weeks ago really the day when people start to tune in after that particular holiday so she was really trying to I guess you know just reiterate her case as a champion of the middle class and somebody who in Broad terms would try to make lives better would try to address issues such as the cost of living pressures here in the United States would try to um deal with things like soaring grocery prices and housing affordability again didn't have anything new to say but uh in terms of presenting herself to some of those undecided and swing voters I think she did what she set out to do and another sort of I guess larger more broad hot button issue was really that this is an electorate in the United States that is just crying out for change for a major departure from the status quo and I did see with interest there was one poll in the New York Times from last week which said that only 25% of people pulled said that they felt that kamla Harris represented major change whereas far more believed that Trump was the root for major change so how did she Fair on that point do you think yeah this is an interesting um I suppose dilemma for for Cara Harris because she does really portray herself as a change agent and someone who could give voters I guess a new way forward to use her slogan but it does remain to be seen how much change there actually will be I mean you know we've got to remember the vice president is still part of this Administration she's so far surrounded herself with um a lot of the former aids to Biden most of her plans seem to build on the agenda she's spent the past four years advocating with the president in terms of economic policy for example I mean she talks about building up middle class being a a defining goal of my presidency um if she gets in and that was exactly Joe Biden's defining goal for the economy on immigration she wants to reinstate the Border bill that Republicans torpedoed um at Trump's behest just as Joe Biden vowed to do and on abortion she wants to as you said codify Row versus Wade into federal law and that was a central plank of Biden's second term agenda so it it is a tricky one for for Harris to um to balance to sort of portray herself as the sort of insurgent who is going to create change and and find a new way forward while at the same time being very much a part of the Biden Administration and tied to the Biden administration's policies and in many ways simply building on them should she come to office do you think it'd be safe to say though that one of the parts that really stood out most I think in the debate I think when kamla Harris seemed most engaged and most impassioned was when she spoke about abortion and what she planned to do on that count oh absolutely and to me that was not in any way surprising uh abortion is is something that I think is her greatest strength in terms of tackling and one does not have to abandon their faith or deeply held beliefs to agree the government and Donald Trump certainly should not be telling a woman what to do with her body I again while a lot of um listeners might not know this ever since the US Supreme Court overturned roow versus Wade which was of course the um the landmark ruling that gave women uh a constitutional right to an abortion in America Kam Harris has been essentially the Biden administration's Point person to go out across Battleground States and to talk to people about the implications of that decision so yeah she had I think a very sort of strong moment when she when she spoke about uh abortion um and really just reminding people that it was Donald Trump who created the uh you know this the situation that we see in America let's understand how we got here Donald Trump hand selected three members of the United States Supreme Court with the intention that they would undo the protections of roie Wade and they did exactly as he intended that has in turn led to the issue going back to the States and as we all know Republican states have now um curtailed I think she she mentioned there 20 states in America that have what she called Trump abortion bans in some form so she did have I think a strong moment on on that front and it is just as it's a strong suit for her it's a weakness for Donald Trump who has um I guess struggled with his policy in terms of abortion I mean you know he's he essentially say says he's pro-life but occasionally he he doesn't seem necessarily pro-life I mean only last week he suggested that um he was going to not vote in favor of uh current um restrictions in Florida so he's sort of all over the place on it and um yeah kamla definitely had one of her best moments in the debate um talking about about that we'll be right back Farah I really want to move on now to how Donald Trump handled the main weaknesses that he brought into this debate he did tell a New Hampshire radio station in the leadup that he had quote been prepared for this debate my whole life but we all know that he's also famous for his non sequitors for getting facts wrong how did he go look I Trump by comparison I don't think had a particularly good night um he he didn't prep as much as as Harris but he's quite you know he's he's they'd say he's not into sort of you know debate prep he just sort of calls him policy sessions and you know he constantly says well I go to rallies and I talk to people all the time that's my that's my prep but he he lacked I thought a coherent message he he too often sort of looked like this angry old man screaming at the clouds um he he's not very disciplined as we all know so it it it only took about half an hour for Harris to bait him simply by saying people leave his rallies sort of you know looking exhausted and bored you know it's a bit of a sensitive spot so Harris used it to bait him um he took the bait and and this in turn led to him kind of pivoting back to I guess the immigration crisis but bring up these wild and unfounded rumors of Haitian immigrants in Springfield Ohio kidnapping and eating people's pets in Springfield they're eating the dogs the people that came in they're eating the cats they're eating they're eating the pets of the people that live there and this is what's happening it was you know one of the most bizarre set of remarks I've probably ever heard in a presidential debate and and the moderator had to explain look there's no proof of this um which gave Harris an opening to just laugh at him and basically said say you know talk about extreme so I think he was he was easily baited um he knew that this would one be one of his best opportunities to I guess reverse the momentum that had shifted in Harris's favor over the past few weeks he didn't get too personal and too nasty you know as many of his advisers had feared he might or could um but look overall I don't think this was a particularly great night for him um because he just looked undisciplined and often angry and incoherent and I wanted to ask you about another moment where I think it really stood out that she really did get under his skin which is when she said that she spoke to military leaders across the world and they call him a disgrace he didn't like that did he no he did not like that she she actually mentioned that quite a number of times and uh and I think he he responded by basically citing his close ties to Hungarian prime minister Victor Orban Victor Orban one of the most respected men they call him a strong man he's a he's a tough person smart prime minister of Hungary they said why is the whole world blowing up three years ago it wasn't why is it blowing up he said because you need Trump back as president they were afraid of him China was afraid and I don't just went on some sort of rant about Orban um you know again it was an easy sort of bait situation and and he fell for it which again goes to describe his his lack of discipline in these scenarios no matter how much advice he has given to just stay focused he just couldn't help himself and then of course there was Trump's other weakness which is notably his conduct on January 6th when of course there was the Insurrection at the capital and of course the upcoming court cases against him that he still has yet to face so did kamla Harris prosecute him for this and if so was she effective look I think I mean I think he kind of um you know prosecuted himself because he was essentially asked um about January 6 and whether you know and and also the broader issue of whether he thought he lost the 2020 election and he kind of didn't think he did there's so much proof all you have to do is look at it and they should have sent it back to the legislatures for approval I got almost 75 million votes the most votes any sitting president has ever got he started to you know once again talk about the fact that you know he he got the vote and that uh and that he feels like he was sort of cheated so look I I think ultimately all sort of you know really plays into the narrative that the Democrats are trying to create around Donald Trump that he is yesterday's man that he is a relic of the past that he wants to continuously Look Backwards whereas carela Harris you know the image that she's attempting to portray is somebody who wants to look forward um somebody who won't create that kind of chaos or somebody who will basically support the rule of law and and it just allows them to create a sort of a contrasting situation which um which he fell right into and there was another standout moment I guess you could call it when it came to what Donald Trump had to say about abortion so can you tell me about this because we know that going into the debate that kamla Harris was polling better than Donald Trump was with female voters Nationwide whereas he of course has been aligned with a reversal of women's Reproductive Rights so tell me how this played out uh I mean in terms of his flammatory comments about abortion I mean he's basically repeated the uh the claim that some states want to kill babies the previous governor of West Virginia not the current governor is doing an excellent job but the governor before he said the baby will be born and we will decide what to do with the baby in other words we'll execute the baby and that's why I did that because that the claim about um Democrats being radicals who want to kill babies um has been something that he's been pushing for quite some time and I've heard at his rallies uh sort of you know quite regularly and and obviously there's been no push back so I was you know it was good to see the moderators at least factchecking him in real time on that and though I also watched the debate and felt that kamla Harris came out very strong do you actually think it'll cut through with voters Beyond her base look I think um it's it's hard to tell we've got basically eight weeks before the election and you know there was a substantial group of people who had said that they uh still don't know enough about Cara Harris I mean the fact that she was on the stage at all really is emblematic of just how much things can change um it seems astonishing that I think it might have been 75 days ago I was watching Joe Biden walk on a debate stage and within 12 minutes he his whole world imploded in a sense the momentum has very much swung in Harris's favor since Biden withdrew from the race I mean I've seen that firsthand as I've traveled across Battleground States talking to voters um I've seen it in the record-breaking fundraising halls for the um Harris campaign but despite all of this sort of enthusiasm you know polls show that the race is still really really tight and it was really tight before when it was Trump versus Biden as well um I was looking at some real clear politics figures today that showed that you know Trump was leading Biden back then by 1.5% Harris now leads Trump nationally but only by 1.2% so I I guess it's an extremely tight race there was a group of undecided voters who still wanted to know a bit more about Harris if they saw tonight's debate they would have probably thought she looked smart clear concise presidential uh they might not have thought too much of Trump's performance um based on tonight alone but you know we've got eight weeks until voters head to the polls this is an election like no other it's been upended left right and Center in the last few weeks Alone um and it's still in my view anyone's to lose I mean it'll be interesting to see how many voters agree with Chris Christie the former New Jersey governor who's also a member of the Republican party cuz he said in an interview right after the debate that just as you noted that kamla Harris appeared like a potential president that she had that real presidential demeanor I guess that she belonged on that stage and according to him he said that's what she needed to accomplish do you agree do you think that's a real key for her that that might really sway people I suppose a lot of people remember carela Harris from you know her somewhat um failed uh 2019 debate performance on the stage you readers Might Recall she had a good night uh against Joe Biden talking about segregation and school busing um it was it was a moment that went quite viral but then she didn't really do particularly well after that she uh didn't even make it to the um Iowa caucuses which was the first um nominating contest of the season but I I think based on tonight's performance she she's obviously kind of grown into the role I mean three and a half years as a vice president she looks looked tonight like somebody who had actually clocked up that experience and uh you know was in fact ready to take the White House well Farah thank you so much for your time you're very welcome today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Margaret Gordon with technical assistance by Chi Wong our head of audio is Tom mckendrick the Morning Edition is a production of the age and The cityne Morning Herald if you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism subscribe to our newspapers today it's the best way to support what we do search the age or smh.com Au /s subscribe and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news analysis and insights in your inbox every day links are in the show notes I'm Samantha Salinger Morris this is the Morning Edition thanks for listening [Music]