Pat Hobbs: Elevating Rutgers Athletes on and Off the Field

welcome to athletes on balance where we talk to athletes coaches and experts about mental health and sports this is a stigma free zone for inner thoughts and outer conversations we're helping athletes and anyone with mental health challenges perform at their best on and off the [Music] field hi everyone uh welcome to athletes on balance I'm Walt earlyy your host uh I'm the uh founder and CEO of on balance Health today I'm excited to be joined by Pat Hobbs the director of Athletics at ruter University uh Pat if you don't mind I'm going to do a little little bragging about your background before we get into our conversation um you've been at uh ruter since 2015 you're a seat and hle undergrad uh and uh you know as a magnom l grad as well uh you got your law degree at UNC Chapel Hill and you have your Masters in legal taxation from NYU um under Pat's leadership uh ruter Athletics earned 53 selections this year 2023 2024 in the winter uh academic all big 10 list um for the fifth straight year recers Athletics set a record with an overall graduation success rate of 93% uh eight teams posted a score a perfect score of 100% and 18 of the 20 programs earned marks of 90% or above well done Pat congratulations some of the achievements uh in recent vintage as well 2021-22 season uh nine teams appeared in the national rankings the most programs ranks during the season in the school's history five teams competed in Big 10 championship games the women's soccer team captured the school's first regular season conference title since joining the Big 10 uh with an undefeated conference schedule the field hockey program earned the first Big 10 tournament championship and the football program made its first Bowl birth since 2014 in the gator bow men's basketball played in its second straight NCAA tournament and for the first time since the 1975-76 season um it the first unranked program in the NCAA history to defeat four consecutive ranked opponents um quite the accolades um so let's let's delve into patch journey and the transforming impact he's made on recers uh numerous uh activities including the mental health program for their student athletes Pat welcome and thank you for joining me good to be with you w we completely redid um our provision of health health services including Mental Health Services by partnering with RWJ Barnabas health and uh so all of our trainers our mental health professionals our doctors are all affiliated with RWJ Barnabas Health here in New Jersey which is the largest healthc Care Organization here in New Jersey that has given our athletes first-in-class um Health Care Services also first-in-class mental health care services so that was you took on a tall order you know 2015 you're you're you're new to the the Big 10 it's a it's another level if you will uh budgets I assume by and large uh were larger and you you understood you know in order to be competitive your facilities had to change and then you you did the right thing there and you did the right thing with upgrading on the coaches coaching side and I guess that allowed you to finally get to the place where okay we've we've we we have the facilities um we're competitive we have the coaches we're competitive now let's talk about the programs that that create sustainability right so sustainability from a health and wellness perspective when was it clear to you that the mental Behavioral Health element was as important as the physical elements of having an athlete and a student athlete be not only from a devel velopmental standpoint as a human being right as they go as they progress in their years but also the the value of that and the meaning to that to being competitive in their Endeavor within their sport when when did that come into your focus so almost immediately um when I you know as you're trying to do all these other things we had a um Team psychologist who worked with all of our teams uh who was getting ready to retire and uh he and I sat down and and he talked about the growing Mental Health crisis uh in athletics but but more broadly in society um and um that's not something I'd really focused on and in certain my time at se i' had seen it as dean of the law school you know when I was when I took started on the faculty of SE Hall Law School in 1990 sort of you you always had some mental health issues with a very few student athletes but then I watched that grow uh through 20 2015 uh and really after sort of 2010 that started to to ramp um there's a very interesting book that's out there now called the anxious Generation by Jonathan hate and it really focuses on how um the smartphone came into play and social media and how the impact that social media was having um that was already coming home uh to affect our student athletes as as well as the broader Society in 2015 and we've only seen that grow and he he was you know pointed out that particularly in our women's sports um you have that and there's a a lot of the issues that people are familiar with eating disorders body shaming things like that that um particularly can affect um young women um and so you see you see a growing Health Care crisis in both men and women athletes but more so with our women athletes and that certainly is is is what we've seen here at ruter and so you know we grew from having really one dedicated psychologist so now we have a team of psychologists led by Dr Peta kanamu who's done an unbelievable job he's written on the subject and so I I feel really good about the team that we have in place and we try to make it very clear to our student athletes that there are resources here um whether you're struggling with anxiety depression an eating disorder or it's simply on the performance side um you're you're trying to get it gain a Competitive Edge on the performance side um so it's it is from day one from day one I was alerted that we have a uh we have a situation and it's growing it's a growing crisis and um there is not uh I mean probably not a month goes by where I'm not alerted to a situation with a student athlete um thankfully there's an awareness of it there's attention being given to the student athlete sometimes they have to step away from competition sometimes they have to decide that they no longer can do that um but thankfully most of the time by providing them those resources um they're able to um get back to a level of performance level of um comfort uh in terms of their daily lives both on and off the the playing surfaces where they can perform and feel really good about themselves uh and you know this back when Walt you and I were were younger there was a stigma attached to seeking out Mental Health Services thankfully today um that that stigma has largely gone away and one of the things we stress from day one when our student athletes arrive on campus is you are also our Sentinels um so you may you may not be going through something but you're in the locker room you're on the bus you're on the plane you're in the conversations so if you see somebody who you think uh the coach needs to be alerted team trainer needs to be alerted the ad needs to be alerted uh we're here and we want to be a resource to you and thankfully um our student athletes take advantage of that you we're all aware of unfortunate situations uh you just had that one on the the PGA Tour um that young man which ABS absolutely tragic uh you don't want those outcomes so I think you do have to be vigilant I think our coaches are much more Vigilant I'm probably gonna buy a copy of this book called The anxious generation for all of our coaches for a little bit of summer reading um it really does Target and I understand it Target social media as one of the really drivers of the Mental Health crisis two two things and one of the interesting things was the ad EV of the the facing the camera where you could do your selfies um and you know that was I forget the year that that happened but um they literally within a couple years were able to point to a spike in mental health issues and something as simple as that you'd say well that doesn't really make sense but the author does a tremendous job of really demonstrating that um concerns about other things whether it it's climate or whatever it happens to be the political upheaval um that's not the factor the factor is social media anonymity um asynchronous attacks on your personality and your performance and we see it right um if if a student after a game student athletes come in they pull it up they pull up something they pull up the commentary and it impacts them even though even even though they're told not to even though they're told not to and I'll give you an amazing example which we've used um Anthony ashel is one of our wrestlers and the year that he won a national championship Anthony started the Year by swearing off all social media got off of everything and just focused on his performance as a wrestler and had you know one of the best seasons in Rucker history uh Won Won a national championship we've actually had Anthony talk to some of our teams about the value of that uh and the kids come out of that meeting looking at their phone so um you you can preach it you can preach it and look just just whatever was yesterday the day before right the Surgeon General came out and said maybe there needs to be warning on social media uh and you know there's lots of different opinions but I I don't know what level of warning that should be um but I I I agree with it if if we could get our student athletes to stay off social media uh I think we would bring um mental health issues um or incidents down considerably well a couple comments to um you know I I would say this is I'm now in this uh industry for the last year and change that uh and I've been exposed to more than a few universities and and athletic directors I I I was I had the Good Fortune to come visit you this past January and um and and threading from that to this conversation you know Dr Peter conu you have Dr Josh bashad you mean you've put together you've put together a program that uh if it's not the leading program it's certainly one of the lead the leading programs and I can kind of say that because I've been exposed um I had on my lab po last podcast Dr Brian hanline who was the chief medical officer um if you ever want to see one of our podcast he was very good and obviously we spoke a lot about mental health but um you know the complications that you're managing within your world you know 17 year olds to 23 year olds it doesn't get easier because the younger generation it kind of goes to the attorney General trying to you know because where it's starting at age 12 11 12 13 and by the way these kids are now moving into college right and you know you combine that with nil you combine that now with the pressures and and the and the the incredible Pace that's going on with the transfer portal um Dr hanline brought something up actually that I wasn't aware of I'm sure you know about it that now with legalized gambling you have those organizations that are shaming kids you know when the kid you know misses the bucket or drops the ball and you know it costs that that gambling organization money they go out you know in an organized way and and shame the athlete so it's so with with all that in mind you've got you you're fortunate that you had the foresight and you have this amazing team what do you have to do to stay ahead of it right because we're in a reactive environment more and less right how do you how do you become proactive and Walt that is um it is the challenge it is absolutely the challenge I mean you identifi the toxic mix of things whether it's gambling and and I saw presentation sometime back where um you know student athletes are not supposed to gamble on anything right but they did a um a survey um not just of student athletes but the general student population and over 50% of that population were on gambling sites and many of them underage 21 so they're not supposed to be there so they're finding ways to do that um and another it really fascinating is statistic of that research that these authors did was um if you were over 50 years old you firmly understood that the more you gamble the more you lose if you were under 30 years old the perception or the belief is that the only way to make up your losses is to gamble more so you think about how that's affecting that Young Generation you think about the impact whether you're a student athlete who's gambling when you shouldn't be or you just have roommates and team uh you know folks in your class and everything hey how you guys going to do this weekend what's going on and then the online piece of it that exacerbates it and the commentary that you see because people you missed the last foul shot or you committed the foul whatever it happens to be uh and then add in the rest of social media add in the transfer portal you know we a kid takes a year to 18 months to figure out where they want to start college they take three days at times or one day to figure out where they're going to go because somebody's made a promise to them and the grass is not always greener we've had some some young people who've transferred from from ruter to other pretty prestigious institutions and um several of them have called and said I made a mistake I made a mistake I should have stayed um I grew up in New Jersey uh I would have always been known as somebody who was really committed to ruter and you know young people think they're going to live forever they think that any mistake is fixable in time and um and then when they learn that it's not um the stress of that is something that to your point we have to try to stay ahead of I think there is today finally whether it's through books like the anxious generation through the warnings of the Surgeon General through you know physician you know mental health uh F professionals generally saying this is a crisis it's killing kids um some some of those kids then are turning to um you know drugs or alcohol or whatever it is so so it is this absolutely toxic mix that is happening to this generation um I feel fortunate in a way that my children my youngest is 28 years old so they were sort of just outside of the impact of this although not entirely unaffected by it but you you know listen we all we're all you know all of us have to travel we stand in air reports today and we see parents showing their six month or their 9 they don't have a conversation they just look at phones they're just looking at the phone or they're or even worse they're they're they're entertaining their babies with this phone right and that rewires the brain and it literally rewires the brain where you watch I watched a couple with a very young infant when I was recently in the airport and as soon as they took the phone away the inant the infant started crying start crying taking a bottle it's like taking the bottle away it's like taking the bottle away yeah um so we we're finally you know Listen People smoked cigarettes for how many you know Generations before we said you know we got to do something about this I I think it's going to take government intervention um not necessarily to to ban things or anything else but to to get the attention of parents uh that like one of the recommendations in the book that I mentioned is that uh no social media until they get to high school because it start it's impacting them at eight years old nine years old 10 years old and then they're they're on it in a way that um it may be too and maybe even high school is too early um but I see it I see it across our teams I see it to be a growing problem and now now we're introducing if this NCA settlement gets approved we're gonna in we're introducing uh disperate compensation and what's that going to do in the locker room and what's that going to do when somebody who is known to be benefiting from additional resources underperforms I used to I remember a time where there was some it was one of our football games and there were these guys who obviously had a few adult beverages in the stands and they screaming down at our student athletes and um I actually went up into the St and I said guys what are you doing um and I said well we're frustrated I go you do realize that's an 18 19 year old kid down there who's not getting paid I said you want to you want to go scream at somebody go scream at Eli Manning over at Giant Stadium on MetLife Stadium because he's getting paid 20 million bucks a year to to perform but now we're starting to compensate these students in different ways and so it is going to these folks whether it's on social media whether it's in your stands uh they're going to feel like hey you know we're taking care of you you need to perform for us I I have we're going to see what that does in ter you have you have a you have a coaching Dynamic how do you how do you you know the management of the economics within a locker room where hypothetically uh a a player with less talent and not performing to a certain level is making more money than a player that's performing at a higher level you know they could be say playing the same position left guard Right Guard you know and I you know there's a management element let me let me go back to a couple things um to thread on it you know the one thing that doesn't seem to get mentioned and a uh very wellknown coach who was on this podcast has said it to me a couple times you know with this with this portal situation and N being a driver now because of the economics you know pay for play What's going to do to graduation rates we were just talking about your great graduation rates you know best in the country what is this going to do to graduations how long is it going to take and are they are they going to graduate at all and how long is it going to take them to graduate it's a great question we already know um that um if you transfer you are less likely um to graduate on time uh and also less likely in some instances to graduate so you've got some you know listen it was going to be one-time transfer right and then they went to the court and they got an injunction against that so you can transfer as often as you like under sort of current rules right um but if you keep transferring you know there's a number of things that happen so of your focus is obviously Less on academics not all of your credits might transfer to the institution that you're going to and so graduation rates will suffer as a result uh and the coaches worry about that uh you've got kids who think they're going to play in professional ranks who pay less attention to their uh academics than they should um we've got had a tremendous academic Support Program here um but that's going to come under increasing pressure in the because you've got a Turn Style I mean that's the challenge turn right yeah and then you also have some of the kids who are transferring in are coming unprepared for the rigors of a Ruckers University well there they're uh I've got a comment to make um but that's that's an issue in itself because we're talking about the fact that from the freshman year at ruter they're educated and they feel safe because it's accepted to um I you know some athletes seek mental health care as you know and some people get identified you know from different parties and the stakeholder group but at the end of the day they get care and ultimately it's accepted to get care for all the reasons back in competition be healthy as a human being but when you come in from these different schools and they didn't have it you have it I will say this to you uh I've been exposed you know on a national basis you have one of the top programs you guys are very Progressive in how you approach this because you have a holistic perspective you know if you go back to what your job is what your coach's jobs is what your director of sports med uh the trainers you know the behavioral health specialist Dr Peter you know you've got two elements here you want to take care of their academic well-being their athletic well-being their physical well-being and you're saying we're going to take care of your daughter and your son's mental Behavioral Health well-being well there's a couple reasons for the latter one is we want to get you back in competition because I just read off all your accolades and part of the accolades is winning part of it was graduation rate which is you know tremendous but you also win so you know that's what the athletic departments do that's how economics come with that etc etc right so the athletes understanding that part of competing at the high level and Peak Performance and their capabilities is they need mental health care right the acceptance of that then the second piece you have is obviously the human being developing the human being as you mentioned up front that some of the people you know really the stress levels and some of the pressures based to their vulnerabilities they probably shouldn't be playing that Sport and you know just just become a student but you know with that in mind um how do you how do you you know this Turn Style that's happening and you know I'm sure that for your organization but look there's not an institution out there within the conferences you play that aren't dealing with this probably at a very similar rate I mean I don't know that stat Pat but I can't imagine there's a huge differential within the Big 10 and the ACC and the and the SEC Etc you know in terms of transfer is there data on that just out of curiosity there is data and and the numbers are staggering um my compliance guys tabulate and keep it and I mean it is in the thousands and thousands in D1 that are in the transfer portal and I think it was last year 40% did not end up with a place so you think about that uh they're encouraged encouraged encouraged you know you could transfer you should put your name in the port by putting your name in the portal it frees up your your scholarship or your place on a team on a roster uh and 40% don't end up uh now think about how that affects you know mental health um you know the when I do recruiting visits uh when the parents come recruiting weekends and things I quote L larell um you know the great GM U New Jersey Devils Islanders on Toronto uh he was an ad at Providence and when I became an ad for the first time L said you got to think of every student athlete some in some ways as a three-legged stool there's their athletic performance there's their academic performance and then there's growth as as a person between the age of 17 and 22 and if any of those things are affected negatively that stool Falls over uh and and that's really identifying when you anything any of these things can cause a mental health crisis in a young person and so we got to have Focus we've got to have resources around all three right Athletics their athletic performance pretty easy put a together great group of coaches put together trainers and docs to keep you fit and give great nutrition right but we got a great academic support team uh and then we have an organization called Scarlet kns for life which focuses on that growth of the student from the time they arrive to the time they uh leave making sure they're ready to go off and launch a career because we know how few are going to professionally and with bringing resources to all three of those things and all three of those um the folks that are around those three legs um are uh educated on mental health awareness and what you need to do and that's why I really do feel good about where we are and where we stand right now recers yes so you and and so let me speak on a broader uh basis you know to outside of record because you guys are um where you are from a very high level and you're focus on mental Behavioral Health and you've got the the team resources to support that but we have budget cuts you know the settlement just Happ um you know I'm not I'm not suggesting this at ruers but you know a lot of other programs are looking at making Cuts right and they're they're looking at you know uh line items in that budget of you know prioritization you know in terms of necessity nicity with everything we've talked about with nil the transfer portal legalized gambling pressures that come from all that you know the generations that come up that let's be honest it's not like it's getting better it's not like the 15-year-old 14-year-old from three years ago that's now 17 18 years old their their situation is more saturated in social media than perhaps the people that are 22 right now that you know are your upper classman um what how do you how do you I guess this is U speaks to a concern I have and I think everybody should have that that cares about this subject how do you assure that these the mental health element to help these student athletes that are dealing with more and more and more that's not one of the budget line items that is cut can can that really afforded to be cut no you can't as a matter of fact we're going to have to continue to grow those resources um where you're going to try to if you have to cut if you have to save um that's not where it's going to be right you and listen we're all looking now to how do we um how do we develop new efficiencies right whether it's team travel we're all going to have to look at you know does everybody travel across the country around the country for a non-conference schedule of course you're going to do whatever you need to do from a conference schedule um the some of the resources that we've built up um maybe to support brand development brand advancement you got to look at that and I don't want my team hearing this thinking oh gosh Pat's gonna cut this um because one thing we know in the world of Athletics well you know this better than anybody you have to have success on the field to grow your Revenue right and so I I don't think in today's world you can cut your way out of uh a challenge or out of additional investment you've got to make sure that that additional investment in student athletes in terms of these re the revenue sharing that we're looking at that it is used in a way which leads to success you know I look at what coach shano is doing right now in football and recruiting uh it's right now it's the highest ranked recruiting class we've ever had I look at what Steve pel did last year uh number two or three recruiting class in the nation in men's basketball I look at what kis Washington was really only in her second year what she's doing already on the recrui front we're getting kids to come on the campus and I believe that that's because when we come when those these young people come on campus and importantly their parents come on campus we are able to demonstrate that it's not just talk in terms of the support for your student athlete on those three legs that I talked about athletically we're going to provide the resources they need academically your your young person is going to graduate Ruckers with a degree and then in terms of their growth as a person and indeed their mental health uh we have res ources here uh we'll have Dr Pete get up and talk about how we do things which thank you for complimenting the way we were very proud of it very proud of the what Dr Pete's put together here um so you can't cut there um you may even have to put additional resources in there while more national attention is coming to bear and part of it is you know the voices like Dr Brian Hamline that bring to these issues so um I feel good about where we are are uh I worry uh you know about the future I worry about what well that's a that's where I'm going to go a couple more questions um p and and go into the future um and I I know this nobody has a crystal ball but from the standpoint of what you hope happens and and could be realistic in three to four years let's stay to the mental health side with all these growing issues and I'll call it you know an element of turmoil um what do you think is out there in three or four years is it technology I mean look at Ted I look at some of the industries that have been transformed and we're talking about mental health and that's part of Healthcare in The Med medical world but Tad you know frankly from the psychiatric psychiatric psychology World um five six years ago was not well received right the pandemic happens and people are isolated and people need help probably more so then than than than previous for all the obvious reasons um and and Technology got it to the point because people think it's trivial this is not a zoom call Ted is not a zoom call Ted is you have to be secure you've got data privacy you've got Hippa right you've got cyber security so once the technology became safe you know the the the practicing World said look I can diagnose somebody it's not ideal I'd like to have them in front of me but in the real world of limit uh I've accepted this and that was technology that enabled that what do you think happens in this side of it within Collegian Athletics two to three years I mean do you have any thoughts on that I think it's going to be a critically important component of how we deliver Mental Health Services uh if you think about you know we grew up where you went face to face you went to the doctor's office right you sat down they took your pulse and all the different things um but this generation that are coming up they're used to getting a lot of services here right and to trusting uh the receipt of those Services through there and so um I I think you'll be able to deliver um those Services more quickly uh with quality professionals uh with with accurate diagnosis uh and in in an environment where the kid feels safe right the kid feels okay I'm comfortable with this technology I'm comfortable now having this conversation uh and then the delivery of whether it's meds or anything else that that has as a result and then really important you you know when we met on on here on the Ruckers campus the database right the information that then you know becomes where you can be more predictive uh accurately that you know we've got to pay attention to the following variables uh and if we do uh it will get one we lessen the incidence of mental health crises but it'll also identify give us the identifying characteristics of this is somebody we need to pay attention to we need to watch and maybe get them those Services through the technologies that are coming about today well and that that creates the proactivity right and that you know the intelligence piece is essential and the good news is um the good news is the technology with machine learning machine intelligence and everybody the the great buzzword out there is AI um but you know essentially the intelligence is there today to grab that data and to make sense and to get into Trends and predictives uh and then hopefully uh prevention um a last question that I like to ask all of my guests and uh I I love to hear the different answers um who in your life Journey has been most inspirational you know it probably sounds uh horny and you probably get this but uh the most in inspirational person in my life was my dad who actually died um pretty young at the age of 60 uh he was a smoker and you know grew up at a time where the cigarettes didn't have the warning label on it that we now want to put on social media um and so developed some real health challenges very early uh in his in his life 42 years old he had cancer uh lived till he was 60 never missed a day of work um got up every day got out of bed um at times where he really struggled to to walk uh and to breathe he ended up dying of SEMA and um just the the way he conducted himself he was a man of few words um when he said something it was meaningful uh he was a um even though he had not even graduated high school he was a voracious reader he's one of the most educated people I knew but he was self-educated uh and so um you know he's he he would always say find a way find away and so whatever your challenge was um he would he would speak to that so um certainly and my mom was tremendously influential as well they did not have an easy life they were immigrants from Ireland uh came over with pretty much nothing uh had four kids who've all gone on to different levels of success uh and so you know those both both of them uh every day serve as an inspiration to me well that's a beautiful thing and and um you're in good company there's some other people that have the same perspective on H Dad or Mom or both so um you're fortunate in that regard so P I want to thank you for joining me um you know your dedication to you know excellence in every regard especially in this now very complicated world that you're managing through um but you've transformed uh both what's going on at ruter athletically uh within the academic piece to that which is um uh you know very inspirational I would think to other organizations other institutions but I think it also trans trans transcends into uh Collegian Athletics as well beyond you know your University so you set you know standards on and off the field that your successor uh is going to have to you know follow that standard so congratulations on that uh and thank you for joining thanks for having me W finally I'd like to thank our followers um we continue our drive and our mission to eliminate the stigma that's associated uh with mental health uh in athletics uh we we want to see everybody healthy we want to see everybody back into competition sooner than later uh I wish everybody well I'm Walt norly and this is athletes on balance thank you for joining us for this episode of athletes on balance if you enjoyed what you heard today please follow us on your preferred podcast app to catch our next episode join our community by sharing with an athlete mental health care provider or coach in your circle [Music] [Applause] [Music]