Jennifer Tamas & Alice Zeniter: Claiming Space for Women Writers in the French Literary Canon

good afternoon thank you for braving this weather to to join us this afternoon my name is sandino and I'm the director of albertine books but I speak on behalf of everyone here at the bookstore in Villa albertine when I say it is a great pleasure to welcome Jennifer tamas and Alisa Alis Zenit Our Guest will engage in a discussions that aims to claim space for women authors in the French literary canon based on their respective books Jennifer tamas published by and by in Al V investigates her personal history with books as a young reader Zen an knowledges that she identified mostly with male characters and later started wondering why why in an un overwhelming number of Classics The Woman character seems to be reduced to a m masculine fantasy in UNAM Jenifer tamas invite us to consider French literary Classics in a new light free of prejudice in our view literary criticism and our Educational Systems are accountable for our perception of women as powerless creature in constant need of women's Men's Pro of men's protection and validation these two different approaches will make for reverting discussion between two auor devoted to giving women writers and women experiences the attention and recognition they deserve we are very sorry but the person who was going to moderate the conversation could not attend today so the event would be a little bit different and it's going to be a conversation between Alice and Jennifer thank you Alice and Jennifer for stepping in Jennifer tamas is an associate professor at of French studies at woodg girl University our area of expertise covers the old regime to the French Revolution and explore the boundaries between Pati and politics she has written numerous articles on patients and theaters she is the author of 2018 and 2023 aliser is a French novelist translator script wror and director our novel te our novel texis man was published in English by Europa editions in 2011 Z has won many many awards for our work in France including the preit de la the pr and PR which was awarded to the art of loing she lives in Britany her novels include among others just just and her debut film e cired with Ben was released to much claim in 2023 good have a good [Music] conversation good afternoon can you hear us okay yes so we don't have someone to converse with us I have a very thick accent in in French or in English sor sorry but it's going to be a good afternoon so we we we will improvise this conversation and you feel free to jump in maybe after 40 minutes and uh thank you so much for coming here so I think I'm so happy to be with you in person because uh when I was writing this book about uh women in 17 and 18th centuries um I was very interested by what you said because um you know Alise is so special because she's both a theoretician so she speaks she speaks about the power of literature and how do you make literature the theory of literature but she's also a writer so it's very rare to have someone who does both because you know I'm just a professor and I just teach literature and I'm very much interested in transmission and so uh Alice wrote this book sorry but she's also wrote a fantastic little essay that I strongly recommend because it's very short and it's called Uh I am um uh how would you translate that um because could mean without an history but also without a past yeah exactly uh that's the thing I uh I loved in this title it's that it is an expression that we use a lot in uh in in French to to say about someone that and mostly about uh about women uh you know that they are uh that they uh good women uh but how the fact of having no stories and no past could be a good thing you know it's uh it's terrifying that means being a good woman is being uh you know just uh uh without no agentivity uh mute as well I guess so you know like giving no information that anyone could build a Story upon uh so it's um yeah it's uh it's something I really uh I wanted to uh to take and uh uh yeah and show the the silliness of this everyday expression yes and so in uh on store so fee is also different from woman you know fee could be a daughter like in French it could be uh a girl and a girl you know it's connotate girl it means you're not married right so you're you don't have you you don't have someone who looks after you you're a a daughter of without a story so daughter with an history and I think for me it resonates with uh um L you know uh and so I remember when you I read that because you analyze Aristotle the Poetics and you're like oh Aristotle is defining action you know through what does it mean to act it means to do things what it means to do things it means you are a man and it's only man who do who do things and get rid of obstacles and and so I remember like being empathetic empathic with this but I also remember being super sad and feeling sad for you because because for me because I love Classics and I love 17th century aristotles is also speaking about media about antigon antigon you know antigon is a woman who says no who resists uh so I I thought about all those figures of women even in Antiquities that I I think resonates in the 17th and 18th century because you know in the 17th and 18th century the way you create fiction is to imitate the past so you imitate Ides you imitate Sia so I I I I thought about fedra and I think you speak a little bit about fedra and so can you tell me a little bit what you think about her no because I think it's interesting to to have this conversation uh I don't remember talking about fed okay okay Al maybe you you you speak about your lack of identification with women in fiction because there are other you know so much in love that they don't do anything and they commit soide like the princess the CLE they don't have any agentivity so and so for me said I I I heard a lot of people uh I I think I am a feminist but you know it's very difficult to be a feminist because you have many ways of being a feminist and a lot of feminists I heard want to cancel Rasin and and so I love Rin and so for me there is this this Dilemma to think about fedra as someone you know who is in love with her stepson and you know we I didn't I have kids so I don't go to the movie theater anymore but you have this Brea movie that just came out about you know this woman who is married and who has a ancestros relationship with her stepson it looks like fedra to me but never mind I didn't see the movie but so and she commits suicide at the end so I I don't know if you you just spoiled the movie you know and no I didn't see the movie she commits Sude no I thought you were saying that she does in the movie and I was oh my God I didn't know that and I was intended to see the movie so no I didn't a movie no no spoiler you can and See's movie okay it's not a problem no so so but so that's what you f like like it's very interesting because you grew up in France you went to the most elitist uh institutions and you have the feeling that there is Alpha of the world that is liking we we missing sorry and we don't find any heroine how do you heroine how it sounds like drug okay right you don't have any female hero yeah Mercy uh to identify with yeah I guess um what what what I was saying was uh that basically when I started reading I was um uh I was a child and because I was a child I was deprived of uh most of my agentivity you know I uh I had to ask permissions to do most of the things I wanted to do and when I was reading what I was looking for was the opposite of that uh so you know I I like to um uh to to throw myself in uh in lives that were really different from mine and I was you know like a I was reading in my uh in my bedroom and that was you know like my space but going out of the house going you know like even walking on the roads or these kind of things and because I lived in a in the countryside as well very far from the uh from the city so I could not you know go to uh see my friends on my own or and uh and I wanted yeah I wanted the exact opposite of that I wanted to read about lives that were of people that were powerful able to move to travel to uh I don't know to lead quests uh and these kinds of thing um and they were always male characters uh I mean I I have met uh female characters uh in my years of reading but what they were doing most of the time was loving and dying of Love or being killed for loving the wrong man and that that I could you know like that was already something I um that I could um experience in my life you know like I would sigh about all the boys you know being at my windows and yeah and sighing and crying about the boys who wouldn't see me and I was it's not what I want to uh it's not what I want to get I want to get something different uh I want you know fiction to offer me uh like K would say so lives others than than mine different uh uh from from My Life um and uh and yeah because of that I I identified um uh uh yeah with um male characters all the time and uh and I met you know like um actually uh this is why I told you I think I um I think I didn't talk about fedra in the same way that I didn't talk about media uh because they're are exceptional characters for me uh and uh and they're seen less as women than as monsters um uh in you know like um not like you know not green monsters with the scales and uh uh and very long nails and big teeth and all that but monsters as you know like a a monstrosity of nature something that they should not be something that is breaking the laws of biology and so and and Society in the same time so uh so uh uh yes I wouldn't uh identify with them I could somehow admire them and the work of art in which they were uh they were created but it's it's different um and uh yeah and the women they were you know most of the time they were doing nothing um they were being captured they were being killed uh they were uh and they had uh they had you know this like kind of fantastic power of being able to die from Love without doing nothing so I mean uh I sometime they do you know like anarina she throw herself uh uh in front of a train Madame bvari she she takes the poison but uh in um in the place by cor for example in surena that I I worked on uh when I was uh 18 or or 20 as a stage director's assistant uh the the so sha is this general of the of the part I think yeah uh and he he's loved by Idis uh and he's killed uh rebelling against the the the king at the end of the at the end of the play and uh and Idis kind of sent him uh to his death you know like uh wanting him to be a proud warrior and her servant uh blames her for the death of of her lover and and she's kind of nagging her you know saying you sent him to death and you don't even cry and Idis uh answers no madame I don't cry but I die and she drops on the floor and that's it um okay okay I think I need to rescue those women but actually uh yeah this is uh this is when I have to yet uh to to to give the uh uh the the mic back to you because when I started reading your book uh I felt actually ashamed by the fact that it's not exactly what this books Sur plays are about and that I I took them uh I took them the wrong way when I told you that when we met in Paris a couple of months ago you told me like it's not your fault H uh you've been taught the the wrong yeah you've been thought the wrong way and you you didn't have the chance to to do otherwise but I think I should still uh uh have yeah done a better a better work but maybe you can tell us about the fact that we uh yeah we take the these characters the wrong way yes so um two two different things first about women who don't do anything and I think most of the time that's what happens when we read uh trist is for instance because you have to bear in mind also that literature is a kind quote unquote of reflection of the society so of course in a society where women are at home because they are not allowed to be by themselves because if they walk in the street not in the street or in the F they can be raped all the time you you it's very difficult to create a fiction you know science fiction is a new thing so it's very difficult to create a fiction that doesn't correspond to the society they live in right so it's very difficult to think about a woman who is riding a horse in a forest by herself and because actually if you read trist l Etc the forest is always where women get raped it's always like this because it's it's a it's a dangerous place you know for rest etymologically for means exterior for Riner it's the same etimology for rest for Riner it's something exterior something dangerous okay so you cannot just have you know a fiction that is totally different from the society however in the 17th century for instance if you read and you are in a bookstore so that's the best occasion to speak about books but if you read Madame dooa for instance or if you read other fairy tales Madame dooa is always imagining women who crossdress so that whether they are pregnant or not they would wear like male uh clothes and they would you know have a horse and fight and be Amazon so you know the Amazon women who fought exist in the Antiquity so you have all those models of agentivity that are that are existing and that fairy tales incorporate and Madame Doo is very um nice to read because she's the one who is imagining a woman saving men women who are delivering men women who are kissing men asleep you know the Sleeping Beauty reversed so you have that with Madame Doo you have that with Madame devv Madame devv Beauty the original literary version of Beauty and the Beast is based on consent it's based on sexual consent every night the Beast is coming to ask uh the beauty would you sleep with me you know it's very clear and Disney make it would you marry me but it's would you sleep with me right and she says no she says no each night and then the Beast is collapsing and dying and she's the one who comes and and save him and rescue him and then you know she goes to bed with him she she proposed marriage to him so you have a you know roles are flipped and when when she goes to bed with him she sleeps and when she wakes up he became a beautiful prince and she's like oh I fancy him and I would like to do whatever I want because his body is so nice so it's a lot about his desire and she starts you know kissing him a thousand times and he doesn't he doesn't wake up you know and she's like oh maybe I should wait maybe I you know it's it's really maybe I should wait and do you know what wakes him up his mom the mom is coming no and it's very interesting because it's about it's very interesting because it's about sexual consent because you have this tension at that time that people were not allowed to choose each other if they love each other you had to have the consent of the parents and parents would marry their children based on you know making monies exchanging goods making it interesting for them so that's why in all those fictions you have this tension about consent because you have you need to have the the the love between people who love each other but then the familial conent so that's why in Beauty and the Beast the mother arrives and she's like no I don't want you to marry that girl she's not you know she's not from the aristocracy we need to renegotiate I mean I will not speak about this because it's too long but but it's very interesting that you are have women who who are very much into fighting um very much in you know they do things they are not passive and just to come back to fedra and media uh I think it's very interesting the way that those monsters that exist in Antiquity are uh taken into consideration by Rasin or cor or all those writers in the 17th century changing the script totally because if you read Sena if you read erides who is fedra fedra is a woman who is desperate because she she has this insane love for a young kid you know a stepson and she commits suicide without even talking to him because she feels guilty right they they even don't in her repeaters they even don't have a conversation okay and what does Rasin do Rasin is taking this myth to say something totally different because is exactly describing t t with the husband of fedra as the man who is incestous because what does t do is using the sister of of fedra in the first place he sleeps with the sister he he um he leaves her and then he wants to marry fedra so there is this reflection about who to blame an incest is not just an association between fed incest is also the fact that tiia is using um fed's sister and and the second what is modifying also is that fedra falls in love with uh holus on the day of the wedding before she gets married and she's almost the age of holus so he he makes something very different about the disaster of a wedding that is forced upon women because fedra is like I didn't want to marry him this guy took advantage of my sister and I have to marry him and so he's modifying a lot of technical details to show the disasters of you know um forced marriage and so that's one aspect and I could speak about media also because media um you say it she's a monster but when you become a mom you feel a lot of empathy with me I mean in the sense that you have this pulsion of anger sometimes when you become a mom I mean I do I didn't kill my children but it's it's it's very interesting because media actually you have many versions of media and it's interesting that the version we kept is the version where she kills her children in fact in the Antiquity you had other version where media is used as a scapegoat and the quanan you know were the one who killed our son um yeah children so in fact it's interesting to see that a my the my are so that's what I'm trying to say in my books that we have a way of perceiving literature through a male gaze because sometime you have different versions of one history but we only keep one version and the version that suits you know the dominant Gaye if you don't want to say the mail gaze but so there are different versions and so I I thought that that was very interesting but I think that there is a way that we can question the role of Education We can question the role of transmission and about also it's not just you at least in in in your you know bedroom it's about the professors so I was wondering what was your experience uh you know in class because you went to you know the most um prestigious institutions and I know now in the US it's very common to have classes about female writers and all those kind of classes but I was wondering at at your time and you're you're not you know old so no so that's what it's so interesting because she's she's young she's younger than me and so what was your experience well it was really uh um the literature I studied was uh was uh written by uh by male writers uh in a in a huge um majority you know like it's not a it's not like a it's not even 80% uh it's uh it's more like a 90 8 uh uh person and um and yeah and they were uh they were the only the only models uh we had most of the time you know uh when we when we talked about great writers uh they were uh they were men and they were white men uh in uh in addition of uh of that um because it's the same thing um you know it's the same thing that uh with the female characters or um the the way we are uh the way we are educated with the or what find actually what Finds Its place in the canons of literature and what are we sure to meet in know in our lives as readers um you know without going out of the way out of the uh out of the canonic way uh and they they're white uh white male writers uh and so for example example I discovered late in my life uh after yeah after I turned 25 I think so well in my yeah in my mid 20s maybe in my 30s uh even the writers who were writing about uh about Algeria or about Algerian immigration in France uh and not from the perspective of a white man but uh um and and they were the first books in which I uh I found people resembling my uh my family but they they never arrived to me through school uh you know not high school not College not even in this elitis college you you referred to um but actually saying uh saying that uh I have to acknowledge as well the fact that I was being um I was being educated to acknowledge only the greatness of of male writers so myself I internal internalized uh the fact that female writers they were minor writers uh I actually had completely forgotten about it but a friend of me reminded me a couple of weeks ago that when we were studying uh in the in the E normal Superior uh and all the all the literary classes that were you know supposed to not be uh not be gendered it was like you know um the cities in American novels uh the you know like a torments and regrets in Russian literature and then when you took actually the syab because it was all uh all all men uh but there there was a class that was about female writers and we dismissed it completely uh because you know we thought like oh we still have some major writers to read you know and when when we have when we we'll have read all the major writers then then we will uh you know have time to discover the the second league you know like uh uh the the the little players um and so it took some yeah it took some time uh it took some time to to undo that uh as well and to uh to consider these uh these writers are as a good uh good writers but you were telling me that actually uh actually you saw that in some of the female writers you you you studied that even they actually dismiss the other female writers because to be a good writer is to emulate the men uh so they only they only place themselves in a genealogy of men and arise the women who who came before yes so exactly it's so interesting that we are now in the 21st century and we exactly see the same phenomenon as the one we saw in the 17th century because to to to be a writer when you are a woman just think about this word publication what does it mean publication it means to become public or what do you think it means for a woman to become public do you see a woman who becomes public is seen as a a public woman right so that's the reason why in the 17th century a lot of women didn't want to belong to the public you have actually a letter of Madame de s who says you know I don't want to publish my letter please don't put it into the hands of of someone because I don't want to be public I don't want people to know about me and that's the reason why in the 17th century a lot of women would publish anonymously or they would publish under the name of a man if you think about manoel D for instance a lot of her main work are published under the name of her brother so it's very interesting that this notion of you know know IM modesty I don't know how to translate it like immodesty lack of P you know it's very um linked to this notion of publication and and for instance um and it's it's if you think about Louis La I don't know if you heard about this poet of the 16th century she wrote poetry about Love and Desire because that's also something that you say in on his story you say I was so um um upset that we never see the expression of female desire yeah desire seems to be only working one way and it's men Desiring women and that when I yeah when I uh entered my uh my freedom as a young adult when I I arrived in Paris on my own and I found the men so beautiful everywhere in the city you know that's that's coming from small village as well you know I was like Wow every one is so good-looking um and and I couldn't I couldn't find any trace of this desire uh from women to men in the book I was reading except in the gay literature uh so so actually I felt closer to J than speak that yeah than than to any of the straight relationship that I was reading in other books but it's so interesting because that's what I'm saying it's not just coming from you or that it's not your when I say it's not your fault if if you read about treaties of Civility in the 17th century or treaties of theater wherever it says women shouldn't speak about their desire if a woman declares a love on stage she's a it's really said that way in the 17th century treaties so you cannot declare your love and that's why I love Rasin because in Rasin fedra Roan ber they're not afraid they claim whatever they need to claim and and they are fighting for love love and they're really so passionate and I mean I will not speak about Rin but but but no so but you are no so so so it's very interesting that when Louis La is publishing our poetry about Love and Desire I love this yeah so people at our time Cal all those great men that you know what they said the the of lion yeah yeah so so if you publish and if you not even publish if you speak about your desire if you speak about you know feelings it means that just speaking or using a form such as a sonnet that is designed to speak about love that's the form you use to speak about love if you use it and you're a woman you're a wh so women wouldn't put their name and if a woman was brave enough you know to publ under her own name sometimes she would erase um you know the legacy of other women such as Madame Le de for instance so the version of Beauty and the Beast that you know comes from Le Prince Deo which is a version that is totally different from Madame devv because Madame devv is all about sexual consent as I said the the fairy tale is is targeting young women and not children young women who are who about to get married it's actually dedicated to you know a young couple on the boat that is about to get married so it's about sexual consent the the female character her name is Belle Beauty she keeps having erotical dreams you know and it's very targeted around her desire so but Madame Le de is like oh I'm going to write this fairy tale so she doesn't refer to madame VV she writes the the fairy tale 16 years after Madame devv but Madame devv is dead so that's good right she cannot reclaim it and she's like oh you know a lot of people wrote fairy tale especially pero and about all those women I know there are women who WR fairy tale but it's really not very interesting so so she's dismissing this Legacy and so it's interesting because when you're a woman and you want to write something you want to compete or to be compared with men you don't want to be compared with other women were already dismissed by men so it's very interesting how those female writer were both erased by men and sometime women and so so that was in the 17th and 18th century if you understand I love old stuff Antiquity 17 18 so that's what I teach at school but I'm very interested to know nowadays what does it mean to be a female author and because you speak a little bit about that in your book when you compare the way you have to negotiate contract can you speak a little bit about what it means to be a woman or even I love the fact that you say you don't like pictures of you uh being being taken because you always feel like something is wrong and you don't like the way people use your image well I think what I uh what I'm experiencing is that uh being a female writer is being a woman and a writer uh but you you you don't get uh you know like you don't get a free pass to avoid uh uh every you know all the injunctions about uh about Womanhood and you talk about you talked about modesty uh it's still something that is uh uh that is pressuring uh most of the women not in the sense that we are not allowed to go uh in the forest uh uh anymore or you know to leave the room uh but uh in the fact that it's not uh it's not valued uh in the same way if we speak loudly uh if we break into fights if we conflict basically any situation of conflict is not uh uh is not something that is uh um yeah that is valued for for women so yeah women writers tend to negotiate less uh or less harshly than their um male colleagues uh they're getting uh they're getting less paid um they they are actually you know like uh they they represent uh the majority of the the publication and uh and these days uh the majority of the people working in the publishing houses but not at the top obviously uh and there are less in invited in uh uh the the writers they're less invited in festivals uh they they're less present on the uh big prizes uh long lists and and short lists uh and when they get reviews it's shorter that one kills me the fact that the average review about a book written by a woman is shorter uh and quite a lot you know than uh than about a book uh written by um by a man and in the reviews themselves you can see that uh the the the books they are seen differently like um like creation is not something that we're um really recognized for uh you know like it's it's it's like oh we have um I don't know we have a very uh touching way to speak about what we know um uh we tell these memories uh you know about these situations uh and and of course like a a female experiences are not seen as universal Universal uh experience you know it's like uh uh pregnancies uh raising little kids um uh yeah SE sexual um uh female sexuality it's it seems like a like a niche thing we are 52% of the population on Earth you know like I wonder how big a niche can be but uh but apparently it's still it's still a niche uh and and the fact that no one like you know just that no one asked the question the the in the opposite way it's just what's killing me you know like uh like basically I've been reading about Michelle's Welbeck erection problem for for for years uh and the fact that I don't have a penis doesn't stop me from having empathy for his characters uh no so it should work both ways it's just what I'm saying if I can do that if I can do this work of imagination then you know like a male reader should do it as well and actually male readers tend to not read novels uh you speak about that can you yeah can you say a little bit because you speak about signing uh dedicating books in um yeah in Book Fairs or festivals and that uh yeah most of the most of the men uh come to see you and say that they're buying it for their wives yeah uh because because it's it's written by a female writer so it has to be for for women uh obviously and because as well uh yeah because uh seven out of 10 novel readers are are women uh and they say they say I read essays yeah exactly because it's more serious you know and it's something that we've actually watched through art history uh all the time and in so many different uh fields that basically when one field uh seems uh no when one one field um starts to be uh uh ma majority uh female then it's just it gets devalued uh like uh like embroideries uh you know Miniatures floral pen when they were what were you saying translation yeah um when when they were uh yeah when they were the the the field of male artist they were great arts and then women became entering those fields and suddenly they were you know like they were not Arts anymore they were just like a nice craft chip uh and and and it's the same with novels you know like when of all uh was this male territory it was the greatest art of all and now the fact that yeah that suddenly yeah I meet so many male readers being like yeah no uh that's for women uh I only read this says oh I read like a biographies about big historical characters you know like I've read two biographies of char de and I'm going to go for one about Napoleon next year and I'm like that's you know like uh that's I'm bored already you know like um but I can't remember what why I was saying that um no yeah it's very interesting because you are speaking about Welbeck you are speaking about his problem with sex and erection in general and so since we are speaking about you know the male gaze and that's you know I said in my book Li mascul I was really wondering about you know you speak about the beg Del test in your book and um I was wondering about you know Iris BR is saying the that the problem with uh Cinema and the M gaze in cinema is that we are missing some of crucial narratives um narratives associated with female experience such as buring such as breastfeeding such as you know A Narrative of rape but uh from the point of view of the female and not from the point of view of men and so I was wondering so by the way all those narratives about breastfeeding rapes giving birs are present in 17 and 16 novels lepon is full of that and so we don't have these lacking narratives in literature including old regime literature or early modern literature and it's striking that we don't know about that because the anology that we have just decided to dismiss those you know texts so if we don't know it it's because people who established uh anthologies in the 19th century and I don't want to blame anyone but SB Lon all those people you know said oh we are not interested in that and this is not part of what people should be interested in but so I was wondering because you are both as I said a theoretician and a writer I was wondering if as a writer do you feel um any way or do you have to censure yourself or to speak about those kind of descriptions do you what do you think do you do you think that maybe you shouldn't write those types of text because they will not be interested I think uh um I think it's a complex uh you know mechanism of uh of thoughts uh first because you know I um I built a representation of what literature was on these cannons uh I tend to think you know that if I want um like if I want to be a serious writer and uh and that's what you know like I I really wanted to be when I when I was younger then that it has to be you know like my novel they have to be about uh young white men ambitious you know trying to uh to find their way in society uh and yeah and that's because I've I've read too much bzac you know but yeah I love I love 19th century novels uh and yeah it's a um it's something like you know it's fre really imprinted in in me so so like I I kind of have this um yeah this um this thing that it it starts like that you know I'm like I'm I'm recreating what I've um what I've read on and on and uh and because of that as well like in my first novels the the the female um characters they were always desirable like you know like it was not possible uh to uh to to write uh to write a uh a female character which wouldn't be you know like a part of a of a love story and the object of of a desire uh and uh and I I started to to feel ashamed about it when I when I read King Kong theor by by Virginia deont it's really like you know because because I thought I was laughing with her at at the depiction she she makes of of French novels you know and uh that all these women characters that are so beautiful that are the perfect women that they they all love sex uh they they have orgasms in in four lines when you write the sex scenes uh and uh and you know and I was thinking like haha that's so funny and suddenly I was like oh I'm actually not laughing with her I'm laughing at me uh and that's uh yeah because I've I've done that like I've I've created the same characters and that's yeah that's shameful uh so I actually started to change my way of writing by uh by taking time to to to analyze uh things you know like uh uh being like you know what what did I write today oh no it's uh not again uh it's a yeah it's a female character sighing at the window because she's too much in love and uh uh and that's it and um and the the begell test uh which is um you know so so Alison begel is um uh graphic novel uh writer and in the in the 80s she wrote a strip in which uh uh she's going to the movie with a friend uh with uh lias so she asked that her friend was named uh ve that the the the test doesn't uh only you know like a wear her name uh can can we uh just um speak about the B Del test for people who don't yeah yeah yeah I was about Lia says like uh to to begell that she doesn't want to go to see a movie which is uh only about uh about men and so they they they come up with this uh uh free criteria which is in uh uh in um work of art so you know it can be a movie or a novel or whatever uh you need to have two female characters that are named they have uh um to to have a scene in which they talk together and they have to be speaking about something else than a man uh yeah and uh and they go to uh they go to see alien because apparently there is a scene in which two women talk about the monster and he's not male nor female so uh it takes the the the free boxes uh but so yeah when I uh uh when I discovered that I thought it's a very useful tool because you know it's um it's so uh like it's so fast I can really I can fast check uh my uh my novels uh applying this uh this questions and then you can you know you can add um add yeah many other in the in I talk about another test which is the lamp test it has been created by kisik uh who a uh between other things uh I think the the script writer from uh for Captain Marvel the the movie uh and the the lamp test has only one question uh which is can you replace the female character by a lamp without changing the story and that's terrifying to realize that I've read so many books and and read so uh yeah and and see so many movies in which you can you know like it's two brothers who want the same lamp and uh and they fight together and you know like one takes take the lamp home and then the other one steals it and uh and they kill each other and you're like yeah yeah it works perfectly like I hope it's a nice lump you know like a um but so yeah these things actually are uh I needed them to to remodel my uh my work from the outside to not reproduce uh what was actually yeah what was actually uh a side experience for me yes so when you were speaking about the B Del test I was thinking uh what about about my text that I love so much and does the princess the CLE for instance pass the begal test it doesn't but at the same time all the men are always speaking about women because in the princess the CLE so you have always two female you have their name they have a conversation but they always speak about men but men always speak about women and so so I was wondering uh because I love so much La princess de CLE that I because I see her as a heroine who keeps saying no no to the court no to you know um a husband who desperately wants to be loved by her and no to the person she loves and so so I I know you I know you define her as someone passive or you know who doesn't who is not empowering you or is not inspiring you but I remember and so I I remember reading La princess de CLE when I was 16 years old and my mother being desperate about that because my mother was a leftist a feminist and she was like why are you reading this stupid story I want you to be sexual active with people and be you know she doesn't have sex why why do you read that I I miss my education that and so and for me I thought it was a very um powerful figure because she says no to the person she desperately loves with Le Prince And for those of you who don't remember she she they love each other but they of course cannot have anything together because she's married but all of a sudden the married the husband is dying and so n at the end is like hey no yeah it's you we can have um you know a relationship we can get married now you don't have any obstacle and she says no and so this refusal has been an enigma for many years and for literary critics and a lot of literary critics say oh she says no because she's frigid she's afraid of sex she's afraid of Love she's afraid and so I was wondering why you you don't like her so much and that's an honest question no but actually you know it's it's uh it's the the part of your book uh which failed to convince me okay so I mean the the other the other character I was like ah yeah of course there is uh you know so much strength in this character and I haven't seen it I think especially beris for example uh I was very moved by what you said that it's so you know it's so easy to see her as a woman who has been sacrificed uh for political reason because you know politics is a higher thing than than love and you know that Titus in the end he understands that and and that it's not the case at all uh that she is the one the decision yeah she is the one taking the decision and he's actually a cward yes and that maybe she's actually happier leaving him because and he says himself he's a coord by the way yeah yeah yeah yeah so yeah so you were committed by every chapter but the one about the the club I was I was yeah I don't know I was because you you wanted her to say yes he's a womanizer by the way yeah he lives every like every woman he had an relationship with he left he left them and so so my analysis is that La princess is very much a precious and a precious in the 17th century there is a price so she thinks it doesn't worth it in the end and she she re and and at the end she's right because he forgets her he forgets about her so so she thinks he's not good enough she and he's she and for me I you know I identify with her because I've been in love with really bad guy and and so but so you know you you are desperately in love with someone but that's not a good person for you and that's our analysis I think yeah I think uh you know I think what doesn't uh work for for me is that uh like I I should uh you know I should embrace the idea that uh that her religion uh uh that her religious life at the end is not um uh you know it's not a it's not a second choice it's not running it's not hiding away and it's not a social death uh that that she is actually following something that is way higher uh way more powerful than this volage man uh and that that uh what he yeah that what he can bring uh into her life but that's difficult for me because uh because I uh I I tend to uh uh I tend to to look at religion in the first part of the novel as something which is just like another um frame another cage uh you know like for for women that in the same way that they have to be modest they have to be this and that then we have you know to be able to to say about her like they're a model of Virtues and they're really uh you know like they're really religious uh and so when suddenly it changes and I have to think I no so okay so it's not you know religion is not here like a like a way of um like like it's it's here as a true belief as a true passion not not as um uh like as an oppressive way for society you know to to control bodies and desires like here suddenly I have to change my way of of looking at it and it's it's a real thing and and yeah and she gets something uh higher from this life and yeah you explained that to me in the book very well but I'm like I think it's a quest of happiness and it's religion but also a a retreat in the sense that you know remember during covid where everybody in France would qu all the misery of people is that they cannot be quiet in a room and find peace in themselves and everybody is quoting pasc say oh what a great fer yes we should refer to Pascal but it's actually this kind of morale at the end it's like she needs some peace and she needs some you know to be quiet and you know idd speaks about that or Gabrielle sush in the 17th century speaks about that like to find peace or you know Virginia wolf speaks to find your room on on your own room and some peace I think all those versions and ovd is another version but it's I can find happiness without a man and in myself so I thought it was a way of resisting everything that has been imposed on her in a very beautiful way and that's why I ended the book with her but it's in the air okay so I have a sign here that the floor is open for questions and please don't hesitate and we'll be happy to answer I have to say you did a magnificent job bra [Applause] I just want to thank you as well for what I you have to press I just wanted to say uh one sentence I am um a mother of a 17-year-old boy and he's in the same school system than you have been through and last year he did his French um back and the two main writers who were on the program were Colette and Olam so I just wanted to say that there is hope and right and that there is uh I think there's a nice generation of young boys coming now who have another another view when I see how he's going how he's going along with girls it's different so thank you for what you said and there's hope thank you for a good testimony oh um I have a question for Al um about a passage in um you um mention a quote by Ed giss to describe um how you uh kind of see the author's role uh where you mention the author is kind of a gatherer of different perspectives that are often ignored and I guess this question is kind of inspired by uh you talking about a shift in your attitude after reading King Kong Theory um I gu separated in two questions first of all did you was there a change in the way you listened to and saw the world uh what during that change in perspective and change in way of writing and um where do you see the place or a place for your um subjectivity I guess in that process of gathering different stories and where do you see your personal imprint um because in all your works you gather very very different stories um from like the political history of Hungary um to uh the story of Aris um to even in it's like two opposite stories I imagine that requires a lot of research and yeah I was just curious uh where you do you insert yourself and where do you see yourself in your novels [Music] um that's a that's a big question or or that's several big questions um I I think that uh quoting giss I was um uh what I was trying to say was that uh at some point I gave up uh with the idea that uh that a good story is a story that can unify everything I gathered uh you know through my researches or talking to the people or are living in in some situations um and uh you know like to to be able to um uh to to be able to use that uh to narrate one story uh which fits in the in the canons uh of the narrative uh of the Sha narrative uh you know with the uh beginning like the ascending action climax uh then slowly uh going down towards the the resolution um that b basically if you if you if you don't want to um replicate the uh the oppressions create uh created by a one you know one story told by the dominance always told by the power and that is erasing uh the the the minorities lives then then you will write something that will be a bit looser uh that you know someone uh from uh the exterior might say like it's not well built this novel is not well built you know like there are holes in it or this character appears here and you know uh has like a uh a great literary life for five pages and then disappear uh and um and it's something that actually uh excites me as um as a writer uh because um because I guess growing older uh I uh I grew more confidence as well so I think you know like if someone thinks that uh that it's badly done I will know that uh that I didn't try to go for a classic novel and failed I tried something else I tried to leave some uh yeah some gaps and holes and uh and um and I I started to play with that as well like for example in command uh what I wanted to do was to start to two lines that we as readers would complete uh automatically uh So like um uh a kind of a a um not spy but but maybe spy you know like a like a a mysterious hacker uh uh spy story and uh and a par a parallel uh story between a man and a woman and automatically we will complete these stories by you know like so the plot will go thicker and thicker but in the end we will know who the bad guy is and uh the man and the woman were living their life in the same cities not knowing each other will eventually meet and fall in love uh and I didn't do any of these things uh so there is no you know there is no bad guys uh we don't know what happened actually why why at some point you know like uh why at some point uh the the character of L was threatened uh we don't know and uh and they don't uh yeah and they don't fall in love and they don't um yeah and it's actually really frustrating uh for the readers and I love that it's something that we can play with as uh as writers like uh uh it it's not like it's not just about being deceptive but it's frustration uh as an effect that we can create is something yeah is something that I uh I like to to take in in account um and yeah uh I I hope it answers the the questions hi thanks very much I I loved I loved your dialogue didn't seem improvised at all um it was wonderful and so thank you and I wanted to just briefly um also thank you for talking about how complex still the notion of publicity is and going public and being public um and I wanted to in particular talk about just briefly the um the S letter that you quote because everybody quotes that sort of saying oh that means s didn't want to be published for example but she was actually talking about busy's writing at that point she was talking about the sort of rag that he wrote about her and it was only after that that she actually began to write the letters to her daughter so I think that's just an interesting sort of Bol to to add to that and I think she's very she's very the rcal when she goes on and on about um you know I don't imagine that being in the hands of so many people being translated and all these different languages and buy was not translated in all those languages at all so it was sort of like a performance a little bit I just want to add and it was not about her letters it's just the only thing I yeah so no you're right it was not about a letter because busy is or cousin and so he wrote uh this histo deol where he portrays her and so they they have a literary battle about this uh portrait and but so it's very interesting also how she actually really didn't want her letters to be public because it's also interesting the way we interpret s because if you look at s in ontologies or if you read a lot of critics about s and I have the happiness and uh luck to be one of the best friend of a specialist of s with Natalie fredel and so before Natalie fredel the work um the way we would portray s would be oh she's a mother and she's so in love with her daughter and all the letters we would have in ontologies would be letters of love to her daughter but in fact s was much more than that she was a politician she was part of the court she knew everyone she had a network work she was participating in many debates and she's she's a polit she she she was a far she had farmers in Britany she had to deal with a lot of farmers who were mad at her deal with money she so she was like um you know uh much more than a mother but we reduced our letters to her motherhood and we didn't um so that's the problem we didn't publish letters that were referring to other things she was doing and that's why Natalie fredel who is a specialist of 17th century about s and so I'm going to do some promotion here she's organizing a huge exhibit about s at M caraval it's huge it's going to be in two years and it's going to be fascinating and I can't wait to be there and she really portrayed a Sev that we don't know like another s so but but thank you for bringing that up it's it's very interesting because it's also a fight about the notion of gallantry because busy is using her like using compliments and gallantry and I F I fight myself with Natalie fedel who hates gallantry and I try to understand gallantry in new ways because of preciosity and all that but gallantry can be a trap for women and that's a proof of that yeah thank you and about the difficulty of uh of publicity I've read uh uh recently but apparently like I was very late and everybody knew this uh uh this things already the letters between Felix and Fanny mandelson uh and about the the question of publishing her work um and uh and the the fact that she actually wants uh to to publish her work but she doesn't want to do it without his acceptance and he doesn't want to and he's explaining actually to her and to their mother that uh her modesty will suffer too much and you know he he writes thing like she thinks she might want it but I know her better than she knows herself and she doesn't want it she's a mother she's a mother she will never h she will never suffer the the the publicity it would be too much uh for her and I was actually amazed because I thought somehow that the the the fear of the uh the publicity or the uh the shame about it was about the content you know I was thinking like that it was about the text because they were uh uh you know they were talking about things women shouldn't be talking about and then I realized that no it's actually the same for music uh that so it's not about the content it's really about where you're supposed to stand and you're not supposed to stand outside in public uh your your work is not not supposed to to yeah to stand outside in in public uh I I really uh I really loved mandelson for for years I used to to play his piece is on on my piano when I when I was a kid and uh and it just shattered the the the image I had I I think I kind of had a crush on him you know like was like oh if he would have B in the same time I would have married him for sure and then I was like oh no he's a terrible person one last question oh my the last question no pressure I'm going to do it in two parts as quickly as I can because I appreciate so so much everything I've heard today and I I'm wondering do you find that there are still times when you talk about the works you love The Works you've discovered the works you write about either with a reading public or with u the intellectual literar do you find that you are still perhaps in a process of shedding light on the rich contributions of women writers that you are in some capacity tempted to convert um here I feel like you are preaching to the converted um but do you find that those moments still exist for you in your work and I would love to hear a little bit about how you handle it um and secondly I wonder what is what would you say is the thing you most wanted to connect with the reader over in your books wow [Music] okay okay so here um I have a good example because I have a husband and he's a specialist of Russo who is super [Laughter] misogynist no Russo not my husband well it has an impact on my husband because my no so because my husband is a 18th century specialist and because he loves Russo so much he kind of dismissed a lot of female writers within the 18th century and I was like look did you read about you know Madame de is like no I mean I'm working on Russo why would I read a bad and you know and so and it's very interesting because my husband is also teaching in a women's college so he teaching sad to his very good at doing that um but so it's interesting because you know I was telling him about my book when I was on sabatical and he wasn't sabatical at the same time and he was like again you want to write everybody is writing about women nowadays it's not you should find something else it's a little cliche already why do you do that and I said because I think it's very interesting to to look at how do you say no and there is this difference between when you say no and you are a man it does something you know how to do things with word to quote Austin is it a speech act how do you refuse by saying no so it's a speech act basically you do something with a world but apparently when you it depends on your gender and Austin didn't think about that but so when you say no and you're a woman it doesn't operate something is not happening right so I thought it was interesting to look at this kind of speech act within literature and at two levels within the fiction and outside of the fiction so how come some car don't understand it when a woman says no such as La princess the andr you know all my herin but also how this no is not understood by the reader or by the public itself so and then how does this not no is not understanding until now so really what I'm trying to do is to retrace an history of saying no that is not perceived so I think I'm trying to do something new and I I shed new lights because everybody thinks they know the classics and I hope that they will read the classic in a new way so that answers your first question maybe and the second question was about what is the the thing you most wanted to connect with a reader over in your work yeah to pay attention to to language and to pay attention to what people are saying and so something as simply as no which is it's a magic word in the sense that it makes a full sentence you just say no and it's a sentence how do you pay attention to that and I think still nowadays like even myself I'm trying to to be aware of that because I have little kids and they're so cute and I want to kiss them all the time and they say no and I'm like how come you tell me no I'm your mother and and they're like no I don't want to be kissed and it's such a simple that I have to respect this no even if I want to you know and yeah try to look at at this s in a new way whether it's performed by a little boy a little girl a woman a man you know whoever she didn't reply the second question as well yeah I was about to to answer both um so yes I I think uh uh I think I'm uh I'm still preaching as well uh about uh uh about female writers um with the with t with this book what I had in mind was uh was uh that I could um uh actually that you know books are good like great things in which you can quote books uh because just on St that Jennifer talked about at the at the beginning uh it's something that I wrote to be performed on stage uh it's me giving a conference SL show and and it's very good to connect with the with the audience you know to to make them laugh which helps to uh to to make the verticality of the you know like of a teacher student relationship disappear and it's like you know it's it's I'm not trying to teach you anything I'm trying to share with you why I love stories so much and reading and writing so much but on stage you cannot quote lengthly you know uh it's it's a tricky it's a tricky thing so when I wrote the book afterwards when I wrote I was thinking in this I can quote and then I can show the beauty of the language of the female writer so it's not you know like it's not an abstract debate about you know maybe if they were forgotten it's because they didn't deserve to be remembered maybe it's um it's you know giving actually the work to be uh to be read and when I toured to promote OTE the book in uh in bookshops and uh and festivals what I did was I took the novels uh with me that I love the most and I read some parts instead of reading parts of my book uh especially um uh zanel Hurston for example that is uh really well known and respected in the US but he's a complete she's a a complete stranger uh in in in France uh people barely uh knows uh knows her uh the Their Eyes Were Watching God what was translated twice uh and the first translation just like I think sold 200 copies and uh and was you know like out of print for for 30 years or 40 years before SFA cani translated it again and her translation is amazing and the work on the language you know of Hurston it's a no one can deny that she's a creator of language and you know that it's not just a testimony about her situation or like I was saying like you know she creates such touching characters by uh telling her story it's no this is like this is literature and so and because it's so hard to read because the the language you know between the dialogues and the narration it's not the same at all so you have to switch from one to another I really practiced you know in my living room on my own so when I would give a talk in a Bookshop and I would read it I would not Massacre it like I would you know give it justice and at the end of the evening there are always two or three people buying uh Hon's novel and every time I think like yes my job here is done you know and uh I roll my cape and and I disappear um and I think what I I wanted to convey the most what I wanted to uh to share with the readers uh with this book was that um um I think that you know like it's not a silly thing to lead a fight for uh social justice uh civil rights and Equity within the countries of fiction uh it's not it's not because they don't exist that we don't you know that uh that we should shouldn't consider them as uh as a field of uh of of battle and the question of representation is as important for me as the uh the the question of having you know like uh the same rights uh in the schools or in the streets or in the hospitals or we have the same rights to characters we have the same rights to have Like You Know Rich complex uh weird sadistic crazy uh you know like a characters uh all all of us and uh and we are not quite there yet uh so that's yeah that's a that's a fight we should all share uh and uh yeah it's uh it's the the I guess the the general message that I wanted to uh to convey in the [Applause] book