The Lost Conan Movie of 1969? | John Walsh - Conan the Barbarian Podcast #8

a major Studio was not going to take a project on like this which had you know sex scenes in it graphic violence because that wasn't where Hollywood Studios were Ray was very keen to do something new that was a departure from his usual films but that could also exploit the fact that he was the master of creature features can you even fathom Ray Harry how and Frank fetta together to bring us a conen movie in 1969 it would have been insane my fellow barbarians today we've got that Atlantean sword gleaming in the background cuz we're talking about the 1982 classic Cen the Barbarian more specifically with John Walsh author of Coden the Barbarian the official story of the film I mean look at this thing John Walsh himself has an incredible backstory about how this all came together he's a huge movie fan guys like And subscribe help Conan Conquer YouTube without further Ado John Walsh John I I just want to get started by asking you when did you first discover Conan I was um at school we had I went to a Catholic boy School in London and if there was a um replacement teacher because your class was canceled you had to have in your school bag a book to read and I used to get into terrible trouble with the books I used to have in my bag you'd be in detention if you didn't have a book and sometimes you'd be in trouble if you didn't have the right kind of book and I had um one of the books I had in my bag um at school was was the Naked Lunch uh the William burrow book and that is there's not much nudity or food in that book as you might think so that that that's really not much fun but um Conan was kind of okay to have in your bag if there wasn't sort of if it wasn't the comic strip of course so I had some of the Lancer paperbacks um which which I got um and it was fabulous because you know sometimes you didn't know when you're going to have a Conan afternoon or Conan morning when you're expecting to have double math um or something rather duller than than maths so for me it was through the books but it was the film that kind of galvanized me when I saw that um in the early 80s but um obviously they're both very different creatures and it's um it's what Weir to talk about this book that you made I'm curious how did you get involved with this and what is the research process like people are always frustrated when I tell the story of how it became a the publisher said do say this when you're speaking about yourself how I became an international bestseller author which I always feel slightly embarrassed to say but um it's true um I wrote the first book for Tyson books Harry how and the lost movies thinking that would be my only book when that came out at the end of 2019 I was I was delighted and it was very successful and Titan book said let's go again let's do something else and I said on re Harry house and he said well I have a think what would you like to do and I said well next year 2020 is going to be the 40th anniversary for Flash Gordon the mike hodgesville and they said oh no we can't do that we we've tried before we and I was like oh so it's not my great idea and they said no no no no one has Grace ideas people have good ideas but no Grace ideas and they said the rights for the film were in different places and we've tried to get them together and I thought oh well if I can get the rights together can I do the book and they were like oh sure and I was like really okay well we're not going to pass up this opportunity so I I managed to get the three parties together which were Universal Pictures um Hearst publication and King features who own the comic strip for the character and Studio Canal here in um well head office in Paris but London office too and and they agreed to allow a license for this book I wrote it then in lockdown because lockdown happened in March I think it was 2020 and it was phenomenally successful it was my first Standalone making off book since then I've been doing books sort of pretty non-stop for Tyson and looking at unmade films and and uh the next book was Escape New York which was also a studio Canal property the John Carpenter film then it was uh Doctor Who in the dals which is um up here on the shelf behind me you can see it's it's based on the television series that people know but this is the feature film versions there was two of them with piz of Cushing and I absolutely love those films a lot of people maybe aren't as big a fans of those as I am and and Titan didn't think the books would necessarily sell they did in in their droves so then they said to me look we're doing a a great new publishing deal with Fred manberg and the folks down there at cabinet and heroic signatures to reissue all of the robt E Howard collection the comics the the novels and so on with new artwork and some new adventures would you like to to write the making of Conan and I said yeah absolutely because I had a long list of books and conen was on there and I'm fascinated I'm as fascinated by the story of the film we see on screen as the story of making the film and I think if you can be as fascinated by both aspects then you can make a great book so I said yeah I'll do you know I'm happy to do it so I I more often than not get offered books and I know people who have struggled for years trying to get deals with Publishers say oh well you don't have an agent and you didn't have a manuscript that you pitched and all of that and it's kind of like well no I didn't there's different stories for people how they got through broke through had their first kind of success I didn't know people I had no contacts with the film and television industry you know I got there on my own if you like merits but by having a singular voice that was different to others but acceptable to broadcasters was why I managed to kind of punch through and not necessarily looking my age as well also helped I looked like I was 12 when I started directing TV back in the day and uh people would even say that to me they'd say are you old enough to even have a job and I was like yeah I think so um I'm old enough to take the the money so that so that's fine so I wrote Conan and I wrote it in tandem with another book The Wicker man the official story of the film that came out in November last year Conan came out I think the month before and uh I've worked on another book since so it's all kind of go go go with the books um but I think they sell because people are interested I'm quite active online I do unboxings for the books I talk to fans I'm speaking to great people like yourself I do unboxings for the har house and toys as well so I think if you have a a presence people who might not normally buy a book about that film might buy it because they have your other books which is what's been happening so I'm most grateful to people out there who've whove kind of said yes let's let's read more from from John Mo well the quality too really speaks for itself this book I mean it's beautiful has incredible graphic layouts you did a wonderful job with everything Titan did a great job putting it all together um I I'm curious just like when you're diving deep into the research of Conan what were some of the most unexpected things that you discovered about making this film well I'm a big fan of Dino delarentis um who I won't say is hugely underappreciated or underrated but I think he deserves an even bigger position in society and within the the legacy of film than he's actually achieved really a standalone Maverick you know this film happened because of Dino Flash Gordon happened because of Dino no one else could get these films made I'm a big fan of King Kong 1976 that was a dino film you know Dino was a singular ball of energy who made this film happen and yet he hated the idea of Arnold Schwarzenegger playing the lead and when they first met Dino was in a bit of a um position because Flash Gordon had come out it hadn't been the great big success he intended it to be he intended to buy Pinewood Studios just outside of lond and make three Flash Gordon films back to back that's why the sets were built so solidly and so expensively and he had the rights he had the rights to do it and it's like no really I'd found that out pretty much for the first time for my Flash Gordon book because the studio opened up all of their paperwork and I went through all of it and a bit like in Jaws where they say we need a bigger boats I was saying to the Publishers we need a bigger book and they were like no you know we can't afford to go bigger than we are so it was always fascinating finding out new things you know how Dino didn't like um Arie but they became enormous great friends later on um Arnold himself said that Deno was like a second father to him because the great advice that he' given um and there were small things that I was absolutely befuddled by um raphaela delarent spoke to me extensively and wrote the forward for the book and she said that um she and her future husband Buzz F chins um who also co-produced the film who I spoke to as well um they love the film and it was it was truly their youthful energy that pushed through what you saw on screen with John milus Ned Tannon who was head of Universal Pictures and Dino delarentis sat at the back of the first preview screening thinking this I don't know what we've done here but I don't know if this is going to find an audience and it was hugely successful with the preview crowd and they looked at each other like what are they seeing that we're not seeing because Dino didn't really feel the film had what it took to break through the box office and the best indication of that he refused to give the film stereo mix so this is 1982 remember Star Wars had had a a wonderful stereo experience there in the 70s it wasn't the first stereo film Star Wars but it was widely considered to be a landmark in Stereo Cinema and a lot of theaters would would have stereo installed so that they could play stereo I think it was through Optical so it was not as great quality as digital or magnetic but it was still good and he said no we're not going to have a stereo mix for Conan even though the score by basil poorus was absolutely one of the great scores of the'80s and I mean the film doesn't suffer from not having a stereo mix but it wasn't that much more expensive but DEA was like no no no we spent enough and so small things like that really informed what his view of the film was was and his kind of view of how Conan should continue as a franchise so it it was always a revelation then finding new artwork new photos um Amo rues who created these model effects that were placed in front of the camera I mean he's somebody that raphaela deloren has discovered in Spain and she brought him on to June in 1984 where his work is absolutely top-notch Oscar worthy and should have won the Oscar really for June but some controversies around that film why it didn't he used to hang Miniatures in front of the camera so that um live actors a bit like a painting in front of a camera on glass but he'd do his on Miniatures hanging in front of the camera so you wouldn't lose any quality by doing optical work which often used to degrade the film print but even now when you watch it's absolutely seamless so we have never before published pictures of how he did it who he did it with um it's it's it's really sort of cinematic archaeology trying to find the story and then trying to find the picture that tells that story sometimes it takes me weeks just to find one picture um and when I say find I'm not going through thousands of images I had very few the the rights holder something went wrong please try again my phone is talking to me I don't know why that happened um it's AI trying to take over let me turn this off completely so it doesn't happen again um yeah a I wish it was you know I I I would betray mankind to the uh to the AI and the DXs if um if they gave me what I wanted i' be I'd be like boltar in Battlestar Galactica so um the uh right holder only had about I think it's 20 or 30 highr images everything else we had to find for the book and a book of this size demands because of the price of it and the design of it Grace images but what is the salt in the wound is this Dino delarentis was very unhappy with behindth scenes photography because he felt it betrayed too much of the magic and because he was from the old Garden Hollywood and in a sense he was right don't show how it's done because we want people to be immersed in this environment so please put down the camera and don't be smoking in character don't be sat onet with a plastic cup drinking coffee these are the images we want to see now but of course at the time Dino really want that to happen so we had to really struggle to find the the right pictures for this and for Flash Gordon as well but they were out there we found them did you learn anything about the sequels that came after in terms of like what could have been were there any unmade Conan movies that you got to read scripts for well absolutely look John milus wanted to do a Conan Trilogy with King Conan being the final film in the trilogy where we get him from you know the first film the second the first film where he's he's bought and sold as a slave the second film where he kind of has his opportunity in the Sun and then the third film where he's an older man and his son um is under threat so that was the Arc of the story um John milus didn't return for the sequel and you know I spoke we spoke at length about this and uh about the politics with Dino Dino felt that and so did Ed prman by the way felt that at the time it could be an even bigger success so 1982 is the year after the first Indiana Jones film Raiders of the Lost Arc so all producers in town are thinking right how can we do something like this an old style cereal with a maty Idol because originally it was going to be um Tom celic as Indiana Jones but he wasn't released from his TV contract so and Tom celic has a look of a young Clark Gable so very kind of Cinema ma Idol look so producers were thinking how do we do in Indiana and Dino was thinking well we have it here we can do something Indiana Jones like with a Conan sequel he didn't get on with John milus as well as people might have thought it was raphaela delarentis who was to kind of glue between them both and the reason for it is very simple they were very alike you know they were um strong alpha male personalities they both had very similar interest and you might think that gives them a commonality but it doesn't because who's ultimately in charge Dino well is he he's not the director of the film so there's this push and pull between them both the day-to-day producer is raphaela who's quite young at the time but experienced and well able to handle John Millers and was the perfect um connecting tissue if you will between Dino and raphaela had Dino been on set every day John milus would have left the project or Dino would have fired him um Dino fired Mike Hodges from Flash Gordon and then got him back a few hours later so he was he was quite fiery if you didn't do what Dino said then you were history um so uh Richard fler comes in for the second Conan film it's nothing to do with the Robert E Howard Universe even the um the characters who are involved are not necessarily taken from that universe and it's actually much more of a ray Harry Adventure or a bit like kowl so people are gathered from different circumstances and they all the journey together and then in the end they confront a kind of a creature or a monster and and it wasn't successful even though it had a PG racing 1984 so it landed the same year as the second Indiana Jones film and Ghostbusters and lots of other great films and even though it was a tent pole film for 1982 B 1984 things had moved on it was quite a sanitized colon and it just didn't find the audience it was was a very busy summer Star Trek 3 The Search for Spock which is 40 this year woohoo um that's a book that needs to be written um so it was it was difficult you know they thought they'd had franchise gold here they didn't and you know there's lots of great stuff in the film there's great photography from Jack Cardiff um it moves along at quite a Brisk Pace it's had a 4K remaster recently by the folks down at Arrow films I was involved with their DVD extras on that and and so was the original film so that stopped the franchise dead in the water and Dina released Arie from his contract I think they did one more film red not red heat Raw Deal Raw Deal um but um so it's it was a shame you know I I think Dino didn't know what he had and didn't like what it was and then when he remolded it into something else it didn't quite work but you know no one lost money everyone moved on and that was that but it could have been a longer running franchise Ray Harry Howen contributed to kind of kicking off this Golden Era of fantasy films and you got to make a short documentary on him in college uh that must have been absolutely incredible to not only meet one of your Heroes but get to contribute to the Legacy uh could you tell us more about that experience that was I was 18-year-old film student which was unusual because the London Film School um was a postgrad course so people had Norm being to University and got a degree and were then accepted um I was accepted bizarrely um I was living in London I'm a Londoner and I was 18 at the time but I previously the following summer previous summer had been BBC young filmmaker of the year with one of my little 8mm films and so they the films could accept to me but with this caveat they said um it's kind of tough and I didn't know what they meant by that I I what what is tough I've been to a Catholic boy school which was strict did they mean that kind of tough and they said that what happens here is when you make films we will judge them as if you you're making them within the industry and I was like well I still don't know quite what that means so the school term is is three terms over um the first year and three terms over the second year so you have to make at least six films in in in that sort of six term um 2-year project and yeah no it's tough because all of the the films that are made by each term are screened to the entire school and all of the staff are sat at the back of the main Cinema and they comment and they are um very very honest you know I'm not going to be critical of the school but like shockingly honest and I was really terrified because you'd hear people's films being completely taken apart and it's very um intimidating in front of everyone else and I was super young I was 18 everyone else in my class was in the mid 20s and it doesn't sound like a big gap to us perhaps today but at the time I didn't know anyone in their mid-20s I thought that was quite old um you know I knew my parents who were much obviously older than that and I had friends around my age but I didn't know people in the mid 20s who would sit around maybe smoking and drinking coffee in classes um so it was quite intimidating and it was tough in my third term then the documentary term I was Keen to do something kind of um that I wanted to do and so I opened up the London telephone directory a big book of telephone like um what would the equivalent be in um in America you Yellow Pages Yellow Pages exactly yeah yeah so I opened it up and there was only one R Harry Howen listed so I rang him on a landline phone and and pitched it to him said can I make a documentary about your life and work because I'd heard he lived in London and I knew he had most of the creatures for most of his films and he said sure yeah let's come around to the house so we talked about film and the film school and so on and I made this short film thinking at the time it was it was you know good film um I had uh a narrator an actor well-known actor naras it for me Tom Baker who was Doctor Who in the 1970s because he won the role of Doctor Who after appearing in Ray Harry hous the golden voy of sim yeah and so that's how he won that role so I contacted his agent and said oh I'm a student making a film can you please ask Tom Baker to do a free voice over that's right no money you're welcome and the agent was like oh how much I said I can't afford to pay this no money now well you know Mr Baker gets big fees I said I'm very sorry I'm very sorry and before I knew it I was actually doing what I've been doing for the rest of my life which is producing getting things made under whatever circumstances were needed and and the film now is part of the Ray Harry alen archive it's been scanned in full okay and so on and it's only a short film it's about 15 15 or 20 minutes but when I left the school I started directing then for for major channels and that was quite a good calling card for me because it showed I could do something um and and show something quite interesting and I kept in touch with Ry over the years I recorded commentaries with him for his films CU unbelievably he only recorded I think one or two for the entire amount of films he'd made so we worked our way back from his last film Clash of the Titans all the way back to the earlier ones and uh he s he sadly died um towards the end of that project but he'd asked me to become a trustee of his foundation and I I've been that now for a few years with his daughter Vanessa and we have one member of Staff um and yeah we we try and maintain race Legacy we restore the creatures we have exhibitions throughout the world we are involved with the DVD extras when the films are scanned for Blu-ray and 4K and these sorts of projects and I wrote a book Harry house in the lost movies which I think it's great and I I want to I want to talk more about that Conan project but first I want to know more about Ry uh I mean so you it was 1989 I believe that you made that short and he passed away in 2012 so that that's quite a bit of period of time did you get to know him well was he like a mentor uh what were some of the most important things you learned in uh just being around him during that time so I never continued with animation but what Ray was fascinated by was the television commissioning process because I was getting my own projects from broadcasters through my own company and so in those days you were allowed to create what's called transmission cards which were basically little postcards that you could post off to people to let them know your program is on that used to be quite a big deal um thousands or millions of those would be sent around to TV exec and of course um anyone who gets a transmission card who works in TV and it's not one of their shows is not going to be that impressed they be like oh right someone's doing a show I wish I was doing um so Ray liked the idea that I was kind of um selfcontained and created my own content so I wasn't working for someone I was working on my own projects and that's what he did people sometimes mistakenly think he was brought in to do special effects no no he always created the films and decided what the special effects would be which is the polar opposite of if if um you were making a film today Sean and you went to Industrial Li and magic and got the great folks there to work with you they'd be facilitating your vision so um we kind of got on very well he was a very generous man you know the film industry is notorious for people being um kind of jealous of their time and of their contacts whereas Ray was very generous with both his time and his contacts and and felt that the more you were inclusive with people the more you could move things forward so quite the pragmatist really and so he was kind of pleased with how well I did from such humble beginnings at the film school he used my short film when he went and gave talk so he'd often play that in advance to kind of give people a a rounded view of of his life and work so that he wouldn't have to always sort of um kick off with the origin story as it were and so we kind of got on really well um I was surprised he asked me to be a trustee but I think it's because I was um I was self-made in that way he felt he needed someone who could be self-made and would have an interest in the foundation but wouldn't exploit what's what's going on there um so I'm hoping that he'd be pleased with what we've done so far since um well let's talk about that what kind of projects are happening with the foundation right now so look ry's intention was to preserve the creatures and to explain to people in in future years how he worked and and what he achieved so his kind of working practices if you like thinking that they would become redundant and perhaps sort of extinct because people were moving across to other Technologies and yet fascinatingly Sean today there is more stop motion being produced than at any time when Ray Harry Howen was working so he imagined a future where stop motion would be considered a part of the past but actually is part of our present so we're in a situation at the Ray and Harry Housen foundation and if people log on to Ray harry.com they can find out what we do we have like podcast series we have an active Twitter Facebook and all those things um you can find out how to interact with us come and see exhibitions in different places around the world um see our books my book Harry H and the lost movies Harry house and the movie posters and Vanessa Harry how's fantastic Ray Harry Howen Titan of Cinema where she looks at his creatures and and the paraphernalia around it with 50,000 items in the collection with the largest animation collection outside of the Walt Disney Company so but when you think it's just one man The Fabulous Walt Disney Company had to employ even back in the day multiple people to make a film whereas Ray Harry did most of the animations solely on his own which is quite an incredible feat when you think about it so the creatures are in different states of repair we've had them repaired and they' go back on exhibition completely repaired under the uh guys of Mr Alan friswell our official conservator because Ray Harry Alon chose him to um do the Restorations on the creatures but what we have been doing along the reach over and grab one of them here we've been doing a series of of of highend sort of um and this is from Star Race toys this is Taos Taos awakes where he's on his pimp I have his plimp over here I won't attempt to lift it it's quite big um and in my office here I've got so many different creatures from raay films um the kener Carly all of those um if I dare turn my computer around I hope I don't disconnect things um which way should I go I go this way so you can start to see some of them there rurus there's Taos when some of these films came out the toys didn't sell that well there was like a whole politics around why that happened so Ry would have been really thrilled to see that super expensive toys are selling out as pre-orders that is surprising right is like8 surprising CU like back in the when these movies were coming out like toys would have killed like kids would have loved to had those uh figure action figures and stuff based on all his creatures so I'm glad that it's finally getting done well you know there's a story and I told Ry the story of this he didn't know he I I showed him on um on my phone I said look on eBay the auction site if you wanted a Clash of the Titans figure in its card on a little blister pack so very Like a Star Wars figure it was I think about2 or300 mints in box that never been opened and he said well why would it be that expensive you know because they weren't successful when they came out and there's a story behind that so if you were a toy shop in the 80s um it's a bit like well-known Cola Brands you know if a cola brand gave you a fridge to put your Cola in you couldn't put another brand of cola in that fridge if they gave you a free branded fridge for that Cola well when Star Wars figures came out um if you were a toy shop and you had the Star Wars figures they would give you all of the stande stuff all those cardboard stande stuff and everything else and I might even pay for some advertising locally for you but the understanding would be you wouldn't have other boys toys from other toy suppliers from other franchises in your shop so Along Comes A few franchises Battle Star Galactica Buck Rogers in the 25th Century Clash of the Titans and boys toy shops who wanted them were a bit like uh I don't know if we can sneak them in because half the shop is is girls toys half is boys and in that half It's All Star Wars so what was happening was the The Clash of the Titans Figures were ending up in in kind of stationary shops where you might buy newspapers and a ream of paper but to to to pay their way they were having to charge more for them so in between the pens and pencils and and and erasers there might be a kind of a calabos figure or a giant um Kraken in a box it'd be much more expensive than buying in the toy shop so this kind of killed off those toys before they had a chance to find their feet because what kid who has pocket money is going to rush into stationers and say show me show me Pegasus show me um Perseus that's not going to happen so it's a shame and Ray didn't know about that and it's a story that um it's a story that kind of killed the franchise of those figures so now all these years later people like me who've got more money than sense want them you know and ironically now I get them free behind me you can see um on on the Shelf there Boo the owl at the full-size boo The Owl and menon's heart is is along here as well um from um Simba the eye of the tiger so all those toys you wish they'd made at the time if you had more money of than sents now they're here so if you got that money do a pre-order there's a 52 CM Minon which comes in the special edition with a frame and so on it's 800 either pounds or dollars I'm not sure that's already sold out that's crazy and it's kind of like wow man yeah people want figures let's talk about that unade Ray Harry Howen Conan movie I know it didn't get too far there wasn't a script uh but could you tell us a little bit about that project well Ray was very keen to do something new that was a departure from his usual films and he had the Lance a paperbacks and you'll see in your copy of my book Harry Al and the lost movies he talks about it and he was Keen to do something that was different but that could also exploit the fact that he was the master of creature features so with producer Charles schneir they got a series of books together they contacted the estate of robery Howard and they were trying to put a deal together the difficulty of course is that how would you reach a family audience with something which has such adult content and Ray Harry howler films were adult content um so the books that Ry had in mind were um Conan the Conqueror and Conan the usurper and um those two particular Lancer copies had the Frank fretta cover art um which kind of gives you an idea of where they would sort of fit in the Ray Harry Al and sort of Pantheon um but the difficulty was to get the options for this you'd have to pay you know a certain amount of money but the conditions would be they'd have to follow along the same lines as the themes that exist in the Conan Universe um so they could bring different stories Trends together and of course you could option more than one book you know Publishers love that they love you to option all the books um but what they don't want you to do to do something with the branding that substantially takes it away from what people recognize and the same happens with um the James Bond series of books from Ian Fleming in in the sort of uh 50s and 60s and when cubby Brockley took that franchise over it was very important he worked closely with the E flaming people to make sure it was as close to and and and regarding the character although I think um Ian Fleming wanted Carrie Grant um to play Bond and that's who he saw as the ideal choice and he would have been brilliant of course Carrie Grant he wanted someone who was quite English and a stylish gentleman and of course who he ended up guessing was a Scottish bodybuilder and it's kind of like okay that's that's not who I imagined so I'm not sure who Ry would have had in mind for the casting of of Conan and whether he would have gone for an actor and had them built up or whether he' gone to a sort of a bodybuilder and help them with the acting it never got as far as that but um it was because they were worried about getting a film that didn't work because the minute a film fails financially then your entire business model start to fold in on itself and Ray's films can take up to four to five years so if you're ahead of a studio and you say I want a ray Harry Housen film it's kind of like okay well um 5 years time will that do you whereas if it's an action adventure or romantic comedy you can probably turn that round in 12 months you know if you're a studio head you want to be there when the films you've green lit are ready for theaters so it was always a hard cell so the the the sharp edges of horror which Ray wanted to do horror films he wanted to do something around dant's Inferno about going to hell Conan it couldn't really work a major Studio was not going to take a project on like this which had you know sex scenes in it graphic violence because that wasn't where Hollywood Studios were um the major Studios like Warner Brothers and Columbia pitches don't go there there and in fact when yeah when we fast forward to the ' 80s there's a whole story around why I also know that uh you know the rights to Conan were really messy at that time too so I'm sure that uh was a factor um but this was a he wanted to make an R rated Conan like a well I mean just like hard like he wanted to be true to the source material correct so like you said blood gut sex uh Monsters uh it would be it would have been far different than anything he had made at that point in time um how how much further along did it get before it was completely shut down well it's once it gets to the point of money you know how much and what are the conditions this is the point in where it all starts to fall fall in on itself um you know he tried to get the rights from the HG Wells estate for war of the world and the time machine and his great friend George pal beat him to his and he had discussed the project with George pal so there was always a sense of if we're looking at a property how many other people would find that out too and so I think it would have fallen at the at the point of money being exchanged because what an option does it gives you um it doesn't make the film for you but it gives you the right to be the exclusive kind of leasy of it for a period of time 12 or 18 months then you go to a studio and try and get it green lit so um I think it would have fallen that that first exchange of money and Views so it's a shame it didn't happen but had it happened and failed then we might not have had the films that followed um because this what year this would have been um I'm just checking in my book now um this would have been sort of 1969 I think yes 1969 so if that happened and things have gone wrong then no golden void of simbad simbad in the eye of the tiger all Clash of the Tyson so it's everything is judged on your previous project and so it's might have been a smart move and we'll never know without having an alternate universe and seeing if it Happ there did he get so as far as like production art at all for this project no and we're fairly confident of that because we have so much in my book Harry house and the lost movies art for films that didn't happen um but Ray love frank fretta and he would have used if you like the inspiration from that to create the sequences and and the scenes and the settings and so on and he may have even engaged Frank fretta to become involved in the project um later on Oliver Stone had him engaged for his unmade Conan in in the 1970s so I think you know Ry would have been ready to have pressed the button on that but at that time he was looking at lots of other projects so it was a possibility a delicious possibility but um that's all it is I'm afraid well let's move into the next phase of Kaa which is uh it'd be prman he gets the rights uh he wants to make his Conan movie Oliver Stone starts writing that crazy first draft did you have the opportunity to read that draft of the screenplay yeah so um through through through rits holder um cabinets and and heroic signatures we had um access to all of the holiver stone material and it's a it's a fabulous read Because I discuss it in my book it's a vast film it reads more like a Lord of the Rings so you know Oliver Stone made something really quite wonderful and you know he was at the highest of his powers then in in the um in the late 7s early ' 80s when Ed prman would produce many films for him quite successfully so I think they were right and Hollywood was wrong in this instance but where Hollywood kind of was sensible was the scape this kind of scope and size of Oliver Stones Conan was such that it was unfilmable it would have cost two Superman the movies if that makes sense to have made this project and of course Conan wouldn't be able to cut through in the way Superman would because it's a potentially a family project and it's something that's universally known and beloved um to have cost two Superman the movies would be phenomenal it would be in the Cleopatra territory so no Studio wanted to go there with something that was clearly going to be a sort of an R-rated project so they had to kind of scale things back you know there was Orcs there was robot men the concept art in my book which is for people who don't know it's this book it's I have a really big pumpkin head and look at how big that book is look it's massive um in in there Jim Danforth who's a highly regarded production designer and animator and had worked with Ray Harry house on Clash of the Titans he did when dinosaurs rule the Earth he did production art for Oliver Stones film that's being seen for the first time in in my new book uh Conan the Barbarian the official story of the film know the publisher always wants me to give it the full title by John Walsh that's me um so when you see in there you think wow I can see why Ray Harry Howen would be interested because it feels like it could be a ray Harry Howen film with all of these creatures someone who looks a bit like calabos as I said there's like a robot man as well and and a large snake creature much larger than what appeared in the uh in the John milus film so highly ambitious and part of me thinks you know Oliver Stone super intelligent man Ed prman one of the great Hollywood producers they must have known they must have known there's something that's called estimates when you go through a script where someone can financially work out how much each page costs so if it's two guys like us in a coffee shop in a in a present day setting well that has a kind of quite a minimum cost because you can get a location on a Sunday and get it quite cheaply if it's us two guys on the edge of a mountain with two armies behind us and one are Orcs And one are robots well the cost on that page is going to be phenomenal and then at the end of the page ice brat wings and fly and some of your guys turn into creatures and run well it starts to go out of control in terms of the estimate per page so how did Ed prman and Oliver Stone think they could write something that was so outrageously expensive and be accepted and that's um that's kind of an unknown question at the moment because Oliver Stone never created something else that was as largely unfilmable as that and when he talks about it himself and he talks about the problems he had with addiction in the 70s he sometimes says that it was the result of the excesses he had in his body at the time that led to the excess that was the screenplay um for the unmade Conan and what I'd love to have done is put it in the book you know it's a massive screenplay it's as it's as many pages as my book is but I thought it'd be great to have it as a supplement at the back so people can kind of thumb through and have a look but um it wasn't to be maybe in a future leatherbound Edition or something we could do that even maybe they could do like a graphic novel adaptation of it that'd be cool too um because it's so wild and I mean I've only I only know what you've told me and what I've read online I'd really like to get a copy of it and read it for myself but uh that would have been really neat to have read that um now uh did speaking of prman and he passed away recently did you have the chance to speak with him before he passed unfortunately not no but um we did have some great quotes from um Ed Pressman unpublished stuff as well so it's a shame we didn't get to speak to him which um but I think he's kind of honored in the book because it's it's his um his inability to make Conan the way he wanted isn't perceived in my eyes as a failure not at all you know these books I write them to show how hard it is to to push this big boulder up a mountain with without Ed prman and Oliver Stone there'd be no John milus Conan you know let's not think these guys dro the ball they brought the ball to dino Dees and John milus who then continued in the game so um and then of course Ed presman stayed on board for the for the next Conan film as well so we owe a debt to both of these men because without them it wouldn't have happened well next uh after Oliver Stone we also have Roy Thomas I'm not sure if Roy came before before Oliver or after but he wrote a draft as well were you able to read that draft of the film and no I saw some notes on that and I think that was before the Oliver Stone version and uh there was lots of people interested in doing something with Conan and the 70s seems to be quite the time for and I don't know what sparked people's interest in in suddenly going to Conan um because there hadn't been another sword and sandal epic there hadn't been something that people were thinking right now let's get Conan out um so so it's interesting that many people separately had the same idea and it's not like today where an idea suddenly whizzers around the world in a few seconds you know something lit the touch paper in those days for people to independently have the same thoughts which is which is fascinating I love the 4K release of Conan it's absolutely incredible what kind of pieces did you put together for the special uh special features for that yeah the guys interviewed me there on both my books and asked me about what what I'd found and comparing both films and we talked also about the box office you know what was happening in 1982 what was happening in 1984 you know in 1982 um it was a less busy year for science fiction but um Tron was out in 1982 um of course ET the biggest film of the Year 1982 um the thing from John Carpenter which was like the anti that was out in 1982 so there was there was some great kind of successes and some and some surprising phases I think Blade Runner was also 82 was like the year of the movie I think there's a whole documentary on it I haven't watched yet but uh some of my favorite movies love the thing oh speaking of the thing John Carpenter escaped from New York uh just the circle back did you get to speak to him when you're were making that book um we didn't know because there was a rights issue around um skate from New York so and we ended up going through some third parties so um John thought he owned more of the film than he did when he was doing an animated version of it a few years back and the rights holder had to come and say to him no you don't own those characters and that's always created a wedge between him and the IP holders for Escape From New York which has been a problem we did get new quotes So we do have his kind of presence I didn't know there was an animated series or movie he was working on what what do you know about that and well I've seen the artwork and Kurt Russell was working on it too and uh Drew strand was doing some of the artwork who is a famous w kind of poster designer but Drew is such a great guy um him and his wife ended up giving me some great artwork unseen stuff for for the Escape From New York book and you can see some of the cover artwork inspired by the animation film that John and Kurt were working on exclusively in uh Escape From New York the official story of the film so um there's some great sort of unseen stuff in there too and I think this is a great opportunity for people to say look this is what could have been and it's maybe a last chance to show the public something from um from from the development work because people are interested to see what could have been and what should have been uh who might have been cast the studio didn't want um Kurt Russell there was other actors they had in mind so um it's always interesting to find who could have been look um you know before um Tom Hanks was offered uh Forest Gump it was offered to Robin Williams first oh really you know so that's it's it's F I mean he's a great actor Robin Williams but it would have been a very different film and Robin was also offered The Truman Show as well before um Jim KY yeah yeah Jim KY speaking of casting uh in the book you tell us that uh original actors considered for thulsa Doom were Shan connory and Christopher Lee and I also know for Conan they had considered Charles Bronson and Sylvester Stallone pre Rocky uh tell us about that cuzz I think that's super interesting well interesting you mentioned Charles Bronson because he was the first choice by AFCO Embassy to play Snake pliskin in escap New York oh so I suppose these are the actors of the day you know if we were to do a film now you might say well who are the action stars of today that we would put in something we look at the maybe the Marvel Universe and the DC Universe but I mean it's there's there's two reasons why actors aren't chosen necessarily from the First Choice it's because if they're available and if they can be um afforded because sometimes some actors want to be paid more than they should because they think it's a bigger budget film they can ask for more money um Sean connory famously was offered the pass of Gandalf and Lord of the Rings and turned it down and morphus and the Matrix too also that's it but did decide to do the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen which by the way is like a yeah I mean it doesn't hold up because of the CGI that's the problem like that was like the era where like those movie A lot of those movies from the early 2000s Lord of the Rings being an exception of course because they did a lot of practical they just don't hold up because the the technology wasn't quite there and everyone was so excited to use it they kind of ruined it but now things are starting to slowly come back where you're seeing not only is the technology better but also we're using more practical effects again which I think is wonderful um but yeah what could have been speaking of which you've you've made so many of these projects you've researched so many unmade movies if you could pick uh three unmade movies that like to see like just have it appear in front of you and you could watch it what would those three unproduced projects be well the sequel to Clash of the Tyson which we have a full screen play for and lots of kind of imagery that was called force of the Trojans which I know people sometimes think that's a bit of a humorous name it's not it was before the uh that product um but um yeah force of the Trojans would be a particular favorite of mine um there was um different sequels for Christopher Reeves Superman films which never happened there was a plan for a Superman 5 that involved other superheroes I'd like to have seen that and and Ray Harry how's version of War of the Worlds where his War of the Worlds would have been on tripod legs as it were in the HT world's original um when when um it was made by George pal they decided to have them as kind of flying sources which is still great but I'd love to have seen Ray Harry how's version of um of War of the world oh that would have been great man I love uh Spielberg's Warth the worlds as well but I mean Ray haren's War the worlds would have been me that would have been fantastic he also uh didn't he consider Mars Attacks as well who Ray Harry Howen yeah he did you know so and and he would be offered things as well so he was offered King Kong 76 by Dina de lenes but uh um it just didn't work out because it was a a ridiculously short schedule and Dino came back again when he was making June and ask him to be involved in some of the creatures there like the third stage killed Navigator um so it's always a fascinating insight into what could have been when I did the forward for Harry house and the lost movies I spoke to different film directors across the kind of genre spectrum and said to them this is the book I'm doing but what do you think about this and they all more or less said to me I'm so relieved that Ry had so many unmade projects because so did I and I felt it as being such a personal failure and of course it isn't it's just a creative Outlet that's not been satisfied so we had um John Landis Galo Del Toro um Nicholas Meyer from Star Trek 2 the Wrath of Khan and John Borman and my codes they all gave me a bit of an insight into it but it's a regular frustration with filmmaking they don't like to talk about it because you might think I've made you know half a dozen films or a dozen films but in the case of Ray Harry Howen there's like 70 plus movies that he was either involved with or offered or developed that didn't see the light of day well it makes sense because you know before again before CGI Ray was kind of the go-to guy to make magic happen so anyone that had an idea with special effects most likely thought of Ry when it came time to actually try to put something together um so in so in that regard it does make sense and I'm really glad you put that book together because it's endlessly fascinating to me and personally like you I also have a deep fascination with unproduced movies and I'm not quite sure why but uh it's just one of those things where like we have all these movies but you still want more you want those unmade things from that era as they could have only been made during that time I mean you telling me that the Flash Gordon movies almost had sequels in the 80s like gosh what I wouldn't get to see those uh for me I'd say my top three unproduced movies I'd love to see one is that oliv Stone movie that we were talking about the Oliver Stone version of cenan gosh i' would love to see that I would love to see Rod sirling a Planet of the Apes uh draft uh which is super cool they just didn't have the budget to do it and in fact if anyone's interested uh they did a graphic novel adaptation of that uh super cool um and then Peter Jackson's Elm Street movie would have been really cool he wrote the whole screenplay and I don't I I don't know much information about it but it was right before The Frighteners and Lord of the Rings so that would have been so cool that would have been fantastic Conan movie in the future like the next Conan film what would you as a fan like to see happen uh now I'd like it to be much more of a Creature Feature so if we think of some of the um original Roby Howard stories and the creatures that Conan inhabits and the magic you know I I kind of was was incorrect in saying that the sequel Conan the Destroyer was less like the Robert E Howard world but actually it was probably more like it because there was more magic and there was more kind of creatures involved so it's kind of half was in the right place so I think I'd like to see more of a Creature Feature and like you I'd like to see the Oliver Stone screenplay brought to life so maybe um one of the big studios could do that or maybe one of the streaming services could bring it back as a series that'd be amazing you said in the beginning that you had all these dream projects of of film books you'd like to make uh what are your top three and do you have anything in the works as well well I do have a book that's coming out in September called um the Third Third Man the official story of the film and it's about a film British film written by Gram green directed by Sir Carol Reed and it's a kind of a thriller Noir Thriller set in in Vienna and it's 75 years old this year and it's having a a restoration and a reissue by Studio canal in September so my book is all about the making of that film um and I'm working on a couple of other projects yet but nothing confirmed but in terms of books I'd like to either read or write I'm a big fan and now my reputation might go down a few notches what I tell you um I like Walt Disney's the black hole which I think is a fine fine film that deserves a making off book Tron also from Walt Disney that deserves a making of um and in terms of the Superman Universe I know there's been several attempts to write a book for Superman 1 and two and I know there's some rights issues around that from it being released the making of clash of the Tyson would be up there as well um and some more offbeat choices like life force the Toby Hooper film about yes I love Toby Hooper yeah oh me too I got to see it at the cinema recently a year ago uh there's a theater here that Quinn and Tarantino owns and operates called the New Beverly Cinema if you ever come to La you and I got to go see a double feature there together uh everything's on film but they did Toby Hooper's life force uh and it was really fun um big Toby Hooper fan obviously love Texas Chainsaw Mas and he almost made a a Spider-Man movie at one point speaking of made movies but it would have been more like a horror movie uh literally like I think Peter Parker turns into a tarantula man and just eats people so probably a good thing that didn't get made and Salem's Lot his which was a television film but incredibly spooky I've suggested it to younger people I said if you want to see a spooky film and it's not violent in in the way that we're used to violence or explicit watch Salem's Lot and see if you creeped out by people have said to oh my God I was scared to go to sleep and then scared when I I woke up at night because it's such a creepy film super achievement super achievement John I didn't tell you this but I'm actually from Maine uh where Stephen King is from and where all of the so I grew up in Stephen King country so when I was a kid reading these Stephen King books are seeing Tim Curry on television as Pennywise I thought he was right down the street that would be a cool book right there too is like all the Stephen King miniseries and books I'm sure the rights are very complicated cuz they're all over the place but well for me it's essential that I get the rights holded behind me so I can delve into the archive of all the documents you know the Wicker man is a film that um had a had a a Mythos around it for years I was able to straighten that out and tell people no no that's not true this is the true story I've seen the paperwork I spoke to everyone involved it is not true what Christopher Lee said um here before before you go I must say that um the publisher has given me these to give to people it's a book plate I can sign and a exclusive limit Edition bookmark which I send people for free they get them for free if um if they send me a screenshot of their Amazon review assuming it's a nice review please be kind and you can find me on various social media platforms if you Google John Walsh filmmaker there's lots of lovely pictures of me in wearing different suits well John thank you so much we're going to put uh links to all the books in the description John it was an absolute pleasure talking with you thank you so much I really appreciate it my pleasure thanks very much me that isn't incredible I had so much fun talking to John especially geeking out about Ray Harry Howen that was so fun thanks for everything please like And subscribe spread the word the books the comics Conan is alive and thriving thanks to you before we end this episode we got to check in with Chris and Ashley they are hard at work on Battle of the black stone maybe they'll give us some sneak peeks of what's going on hey guys what's up what are you reading there is that John Walsh's Con in the Barbarian the story of the film Chris as the door any battle the black stone information give us a sneak peek show us some image wait okay guys I'm sorry that didn't pan out with Chris and Ashley but you know our head of operations Mike he might dish some dirt hey Mike what's going on with Battle of the black stone can you uh dish some dirt all right maybe later like And subscribe and craw back for more next time [Music]