DEBATE REVIEW | "Does the Quran Affirm the Bible?" | DeenResponds Vs Chris

Intro [Music] Stream begins, followed by discussion among Ibn Hazm Al Idrissi, Ibrahim, and Hashim bar [Music] do brother Ibrahim andb are you guys all right ald uh anything new happening in the da fiam alhamdulillah you know shahada on On th on when was it on Tuesday alhamdulillah yeah and someone passing by the Masjid and uh he and up taking his shahada alhamdulillah but the funniest the funniest bit it was last Sunday we had this brother that converted to Islam that reverted to Islam and he had like a girlfriend which is who who she was Muslim so spoke to them and then we she Muhammad ended up conducting their ncah on the spot on the spot in in in the mid in the middle of in the middle of ler Square oh that must be on Friday no no it was on Sunday this Sunday oh yes yes you went to ler square instead of speaker Square yes on Sunday yeah Subhan Allah I've seen that the first time ever to happen on the da you know I mean so now it's not just inviting people to Islam and trying to to explain about the de so we conduct even nikah alhamdulillah I'm pretty sure this is not the first time I've seen it before as well so not common but it happens you know because yeah well it should you don't want them to be you don't want them to start har and go so we explain to them we explain to them and uh you know they they agreed so yeah okay Mah that's good that's never to forget yeah instead of them living in sin you know might as well and the brother who's accepted Islam you know he's since been wiped off alhamdulillah why have new ones yeah yeah absolutely alhamdulillah may Allah keep them firm on the dean aan aan what about yourself brother Ibrahim um what's new at your end you're based in the US right uh Canada actually yeah sorry I keep forgetting that between you and visam I get mixed up M you you go on live stream with brother fared quite often so alhamdulillah that's good that's wasam he goes with fared he goes with fared no wonder I get confused yeah I was just you know I I think I spent the last month like making a few more videos on like more Prophecies of the Prophet peace be upon I'm in the uh Hebrew Bible and now I've moved on to just like other stuff um okay m yeah so I think we're going to do the TMO streams On Da wise yeah that is something we got plan for the near future very soon inshallah and uh brother Ibrahim is going to take us through uh basically the concept of God in the talmud uh if I can summarize it as simple as that yeah maybe you can give us a bit more you know summarize it better process I think we'll we'll do a few streams on some uh different topics related to the talmud but the first one is going to be like on God for the people who don't know what the talmud is perhaps you can just elaborate a bit on that so Orthodox Jews believe that mam he wasn't only given a written Torah uh the pentat but he was also given an oral Torah which is like explaining how how to do the Commandments Etc so uh is it like the Hadith of mam yeah it's kind of like that um now you mentioned another term just now the pentet took yeah W be aware of that either obviously because the Orthodox Jews will say it's uh you know regardless of what the as a Muslim your view is of the Torah uh Jews obviously believe it's the pentiuk now um so in the first century you have Pharisees they believed in the oral law but not all Jew Jews believed in it now after Jesus it was U uh written down or actually written down as the wrong term it was codified in the mishna now this is not to say that this version of the oral law was exactly the form that existed before but it was codified in the Mna and then you had rabbis discussing it and so what the tud is it's basically a quote of the mishna they quote something from the mishna and then they quote different rabbis discussing it and then they quote something from the mishna and they quote different rabbis discussing it so it's sometimes term like a commentary on on the mishna U but it's a very loose commentary because like it'll go into different stuff tangents and stories and this and that so u in the first stream we'll be especially looking at what is the view of God in the Babylonian tet and what I'm arguing is that God in the T in the Babylonian tet especially is sort of like the rabbis see God as like a bigger Heavenly Jew and they basically humanize him all the emotions and everything yeah so it's not to say like uh um you know later on in the Middle Ages and stuff you get debates on uh you know like philosophically like the stuff that Pho and all these people speak about like we're not saying that they think God is a human because they say that God like loves and hates that sort of stuff that's not the argument the argument is they attribute god with stuff like with basically he's just like a a Jew in heaven you know he debates and he loses debates and uh uh he wears to fill in which you know like the Kaa sort of things that Jews the cube the Black Cube yeah so it's that sort of stuff uh he studies the Torah there's even I think it's a midrash but it says that he uh he studies a book that a rabbi wrote so this sort of stuff so he so God study is a book that a rabbi his creation wrote yeah oh dear I thought the Hindus were [Laughter] bad okay that'll be interesting um yeah that'll be the first and then the second one so let me understand this so basically the mishna is I think the mishna is more like the Hadi for them the Mish is sort of like very focused on the law actual laws yeah whereas the Babylonian talmud is then commenting on the law so it it's often trying to like explain contradictions but then in the talmud you also get like um stuff that's not very much related to the laws like stories and other Traditions stuff like that is the Misha mishna is at least more focused on the laws okay and what is the gimar gar is uh basically the just another word for the uh talmud why is it okay yeah you could kind of say it's like the voice of the talmud yeah right okay inshah we look forward to that uh hopefully uh next uh next Thursday um yeah so today we are going to review the debate that um Brother Dean response had with Chris from Speakers Corner uh and this is something quite interesting because uh I think they were discussing uh whether the Quran affirms the Bible and I honestly don't know what they're trying to do uh by such topics so if the Quran affirms the Bible um what does that mean are they going to now say that the Muslims are going to believe the Bible seriously is that what they trying to do uh because the Quran also clearly states that the Bible has been corrupted yeah the previous scriptures have been corrupted chapter 2 ver 79 and S Al MAA and elsewhere in so many places mention so what do you think was the purpose of this particular debate that they had recently on God logic's uh uh Channel yeah it's just this Islamic dilemma argument that was popularized by I think David wood uh this idea that the Quran affirms the Bible uh but the Quran also sometimes contradicts the Bible therefore the Quran is false uh Christians have been using it for years and if you go to any like Christian comment section or if you have Christians commenting on your videos they always spam this argument but it's never really been uh particularly effective like Chris made a video reviewing the debate a bit and he's like oh finally we got a Muslim engaging with yeah the reason there haven't been debates on it until recently is cuz you know as duat like no one comes to us and is like I'm confused about the Islamic dilemma or I have doubts because of the Islamic the argument doesn't really work on Muslims yeah that's what I'm trying to figure out I mean what are they trying to achieve by this I mean they look they make a strawman and they expect us to you know hit the strawman or engage with it or something I mean Muslim ever from my you knowah 20 30 years of Da experience has ever told me that oh because the Quran affirms the Bible so I don't believe in the Quran anymore yeah EXA it doesn't have it's only recently that this is yeah it's only recently that this has become a a discussion in the Muslim Community I think with the John Fontaine debate and then you had different views on it and now Dean debating and stuff going on in Tik Tok but before this whole drama uh like is I don't Muslims are just not affected by it so these people wonder why we don't really discuss with them on the because it's not it's not like a pressing issue they seem to think it's like the best argument against Islam that's what David wood says he says it's his favorite argument it doesn't we when we engage with Christians we actually address the most fundamental doctrines isn't that right sham you you know we don't we don't worry about this all par yes I mean I mean look let's go back to the early Scholars like and and all of these they have written uh they have written they have debated they have written extensively on the matter and this question of the Quran is proves or disapproves of the Bible never came about it's something which is new you look at the orientalists people that studied Arabic and they studied the Hadith they studied the science of Hadith they studied the tap the Quran they don't bring things like that it's like a straw man as you said nothing you will achieve nothing with it so approve or disapproves it means nothing it still tells me that your book is corrupted h and what even worse is sometimes the same people say oh your book is uh by the Shan yes the Quran is from thean so indirectly when the Quran when the Quran curses the Shan yes and and the Bible glorifies the shaan by saying he's the god of the world and whom whom do the whom does the bible curse the uh the god of the Bible absolutely yes so it's a it's like you know it's it's an own goal you know it's all the both all the New Testament both of them Paul curses him in the old in the New Testament and uh and uh in the Old Testament he who hangs on on Paul is he HS on a Paul is cursed absolutely yeah so I'm I I'm just baffled by this they think that they have got some winning point I it's just childish and uh to be honest ineffective they're just wasting energy and steam and they are just patting themselves on the back saying that oh look we won it's just nonsense and very childish you know if you want to debate debate the main doctrines of Islam let's take toed versus the Trinity when have you ever seen a trinitarian ever win that debate you know they confuse themselves every time I've had a debate with Chris at Speaker's Corner and guess what he ends up saying that uh three Gods because you know subconsciously that's what they have to imagine when we ask them when you go to paradise whom are you going to see you going to see one God or three persons and they all fail to answer that question either they evade it or they'll say three but Chris thinks that he's an expert on Quran on the subject matter of the Quran when when he does know nothing he came to me once he wanted to to debate me and I just sent him in absolutely because the thing is they they beg us to debate and when we don't debate them at Speakers Corner when even though they know that we are boycotting them they think we are scared of them they think that they have got the upper hand I mean alhamdulillah look at the Muslim channels all the channels which broadcast from Speakers Corner are mainly Muslim channels apart from one Christian Channel and that one Christian Channel had been outdone by most of these Muslim channels who started much later you know so alhamdulillah we we have been you know the ones Victorious bigest Corner even though we are in a Christian country it is a Muslims who are victorious in a majority Christian area so alhamdulillah for that because you know the HW always wins and it's it's going to outdo the falsehood anytime in oh you know now they follow us to Lista Square we've got Sara we got uh following us they started following us you know no content they are starved of content so they come they they know that the only people that can give them content it's us not the Hindus not the siks not the Jews not the Jehova Witnesses none absolutely yeah because you know this is what they are it's all about their content about making getting views you know obviously monetizing them it's all about that because if you look at them they always chasing the Muslims the Muslims who are known who are actually who have got uh big channels they'll be following them like little puppies all around the park wherever they go you know like sham goes to uh leer Square they follow him there they they go to uh what's the Other Place Stratford and the same people follow them in Stratford it just shows that the Muslims are leading and you guys are following we are the Masters followers sounds like harass doggies doggies doggies yes I I said it just sounds like harassment I mean it is yeah it is it is it's called religious harassment you know uh at least you know when the Jehovah's Witness come they at least knock on the door these guys just barging so that's the difference so yeah alhamdulillah we um let's carry on with this debate review inshallah so yeah give us your perception brother Ibrahim with regards to because you were the moderator uh tell us a bit more about Brother Dean because I think it's quite early in the morning it's like 2: a.m. where Brother Dean is so it's it's going to be difficult for him to come straight away on the stream but inshallah we'll wait for him and we'll see where it goes but uh yeah tell us uh because you have known Brother Dean response for a while and uh brothers and sisters please do subscribe and like uh Dean response Channel um it's also got uh Twitter by the same handle Dean response uh we have uh put both of them in our description uh so yeah ibim if you can just perhaps give a give us a brief uh you know about both then response and about um the channel and what he does and then you know proceed with a summary of the debate inshallah yeah so Dean response is I think one of the upand cominging newer uh Muslim YouTubers and especially like a response Channel kind of like fared response so that's what he sort of focuses on answering doubts about Islam refuting arguments against Islam and this and that and he does many subjects uh this was his first formal debate yeah um but before that he actually had a sort of like an informal debate discussion with inspiring philosophy on the age of Aisha I thought he did quite well in that actually yeah alhamdulillah I think he debated uh what's his name God loic as well on his I don't know one of the streams if I remember correctly yeah yeah he's gone on and he's like had discussions with him and uh and I think he had a discussion with Jay Dyer as well so he does many things like he'll tackle like this sort of argument does the Quran affirm the Bible fully um and then you know like moral arguments like we mentioned and then you know like all kinds of stuff he's very active as well I mean if you look at me I posted like four videos in the month or five videos probably he probably posted like 40 is it okay he's posting he posts a lot so uh Arin coming I think he's quite good he he's also quite knowledgeable at his age so all the young people like yourself uh brother vam Ramsey uh you know de response yeah and we off he also the genz all the you know Tik Tok gener good to seeing in alhamdulillah I was saying that I think he also knows a a lot better than many other du in the English world so that's always good to see someone who knows uh like his studied Islam and he's quite good on that because there's some Dua to kind of neglect Islam and just focus on the Bible but de is like he's good enough bance it should be it should be the contrary you should start with your the de before even moving to to other to comparative religion start with your own then move to comparative religion absolutely yes and yeah uh brothers and sisters do subscribe to brother ibrahim's channel it's called proving Islam is that right yeah yes if you can I'm just going to put it in your on your headline optional yeah is it one word or is it two words uh I think it's two words yeah two words okay it's under your name now uh and shik iin ham also his channel is called Dava right yes yes do subscribe to shik Iam's Channel as well Mah he's doing a lot of work I know a lot of people record him and they put it on their own channels and the shik's channel badly gross sh you need to do something about that inshallah inshallah right so is it I think it's one word right yours yes one word yes one word okay all right inshah right we got everyone's channels up on the screen so brothers and sisters please do subscribe to their channels and inshallah make Dua for all of us uh may Allah accept our work uh whatever little we do you know accept it from us all uh yes brother Ibrahim so if you can tell us um just summarize uh the debate I mean I don't know if you knew whether it was going to take place or was it was it a complete surprise to you as well no I no I know uh I knew the debate was happening but it was a surprise to be asked to come in as co- moderator because literally I was I was called like uh two minutes before I was thinking maybe I'm gonna watch uh trumpy [Laughter] Harris but I was I was like this is more interesting yeah yeah like he called me and he's like the person who was supposed to be co- moderator is is not picking up and they were already late by like an hour and a half right Avery and Chris were late already I think they didn't I think Chris thought the debate was the day after or something oh it was kind of weird were already late like I I think the original moderator he was like Chris is not coming so he slept or something so uh that's why I had to come in at the at the last moment but the debate itself I knew it was it was happening right okay and what do you think of the debate yeah I I thought Dean won I I was disappointed in Chris um and this is going to sound kind of offensive but I'm I'm trying to put it in a nice way but I don't know how else to say I think my conclusion is Chris is a bit slow uh I don't think he really was understanding what was going on in uh a bunch of parts in the debate and then after the debate you would think that now he he'd have a chance to like rewatch it or something like I rewatched the debate um because he made a video about it afterwards and he still didn't seem to understand stuff like I asked him a question in the debate because there were no questions from the Muslim side so we had me ask a question and he tried to summarize it in the debate review and he was like oh I don't the question was completely irrelevant like you could tell he didn't even understand the point of the question so the very title they selected they he wasn't sure about that topic itself he he he wasn't really following the arguments some of the argu like obviously some of the stuff he did understand but I don't think he fully was comprehending uh all the nuances of the discussion and stuff you you know what I found out his opening statement it appeared to me and I I'm might be wrong but his opening statement was off was off subject yeah that's what IAH is saying he probably didn't understand the very title yeah what I'm saying is I don't think he understood like's arguments F I see certain at certain time you you put I you could tell that you were bored because you had your hand on your face and you just went like that you were going with your head like then you were laughing you were laughing at some of his an when he was being questioned by Dean right yeah you know for for the first half for the first half of the debate I was you know I was acting as moderator so I was trying to look like professional and stuff but then I saw Avery he was making little f es yes yes so I thought well if he's going to do that I have to I have to do it for our side as yeah it was I haven't I haven't seen the full debate but I saw the one of the clips where you you actually broke out into laughter yeah his argument was ridiculous because because the a [Music] says he's like uh my view on this is the author of the Quran is not saying it's not from God if there's one contradiction but if there's many contradictions then that's the author of the Quran has a problem with that like oh I no and then again then again also when it suited him he said that Muhammad sallallah wasam was the author and then when it doesn't suit him he he goes he's illiterate he doesn't know how to read or to write well stick on one thing either he's one of the so many co-authors that you claiming or no the think about it that any any orientalist or any person they don't come with things like that because when you analyze the Quran Subhan Allah the stylistic of the Quran the rhetoric of the Quran the the way the way it's it's going like from chapter to chapter how they are linked together and that you cannot say that they are multi multi it's multiauthored is yeah it's a very it's a laughable position but very it's like a minority of uh orientalists still use this multi-author argument and again it's just a very it's a bad argument for a lot of reasons and one of them is like we have very early manuscripts now so it's like impossible now to to say the multi-author one well they're projecting their own scriptures Anonymous authors for their trying to project that onto us they got contradiction so they're trying to project the itions onto us it's it's just kind of insecurity from that even to the orientalist are just the Contemporary the contemporani ones you won't find like even them the majority of them say it's one author from what I'm aware it's only a minority yes I mean and you're going to find that in to be honest like you'll always be able to find weird views amongst of course of course of course so uh the manuscripts have really like uh like finish this argument about multiple authors and stuff like that I don't know why why Chris exactly it's like somebody once he came with the question of the uh the moon God so I debated him on it and then it was simple so just a verse from Quran where it says that do not prostrate to the Sun and the Moon and prr to Allah the one who created them but he still couldn't comprehend it how can Subhan Allah and you know the difficulty of of someone when they do not know what they reading it's a problem okay so which is a main Ayah they actually try to allude to when they say the Quran affirms the Bible is it which one is it the weird thing is so from what I recall I didn't really see Chris in his opening statement like quote an aah in full uh I think the only one he he he he might have like uh mentioned in translation of Surah Ali Iman Ayah 3 something like that um but like he didn't have any ayat on the screen from what I recall what he did is the Quran uh confirms the Bible in like Surah 2 Ayah 87 Ayah 8 like this sort of stuff where he's just listing the chapter and verse references without really going through them I think he was perhaps Bing on the fact that the audience the Christian audience would already be familiar with these sorts of arguments so that's why he didn't really bring any he didn't really focus on like showing how the verses confirm the Bible but usually the stuff they bring is like the Quran saying um that it's they confirming what was before it they bring that the Quran says uh how can the Jews judge ask you Muhammad to be their judge yeah while they have the Torah within which is Allah's judgment um but that that that actually the the the following verses they explain it and also for us it's the reason for Revelation and it SS in there so when there is when there is an something which happened and Allah reveals Quran regarding that incident or the occurrence you can't so you're relate it to to its to to to to the case where it what it was sent down for Subhan Allah guess what I'm reading now um this is my new my new book yeah yes it's a yeah that's a good one yeah good yeah but this one is is Subhan Allah it's a good read because they all good reads yeah alhamdulillah it's it's a quite good scholarly work here um how do they get around the problem of the fact that as Muslims we believe the Torah the injil the Quran the zor all of these are which means they were direct Revelations rather than some human authors writing them but but but you know the difference you know the difference between these you know the inil was revealed all at once the Torah was revealed all at once yeah the only progressive revelation is the Quran Subhan Allah but all even then it's still isn't it even if it was yes no but what I mean because like the authorship of the Bible it's different years and and everything else when we know that the inil was like a one it was sent down at once the Torah was the same thing but did they have got unknown different authors different places like I was speaking to somebody regarding Deuteronomy and I said to him Deuteronomy chapter 30 which speaks about the death of Moses and brother Abraham can correct me if I'm mistaken and uh he goes no no that's that's Joshua so you cannot even agree on the on on the subject matter if it was Moses who who did or Joshua or some unknown other authors Subhan Allah it's yeah yeah so so that Chris's argument was what you would expect just the Islamic dilemma that we've heard many times Dean's response was different from um the recent debate between John Fontaine and and God logic John Fontaine said that uh he doesn't think there's any evidence that the Bible existed in Medina he thinks they have alternative scriptures Dean was saying that when the Quran says it's confirming what came before this is a general statement but it doesn't mean it's confirming everything in it rather it's also saying that there are portions in the Torah and gospel that are corrupted that are changed that are not from God so that was Dean's response right and there's an ay he quoted at the end of his presentation which I think is pretty relevant it's in in that same discussion let's actually this is Ayah 48 uh sure I get it right so and we sent down to you Muhammad the scripture uh with truth confirming what was before it from the scripture and an authority over it so what he highlighted is that Allah says that it confirms what was before it from the Scripture it doesn't say it confirms everything in the scripture but it says it confirms from the scripture which itself implies that the Quran is not confirming everything from the scripture but it's confirming from it so the whole Christian argument yeah so the whole Christian argument is the Quran confirms that everything in the Torah and gospel and the Z but what Allah is saying is it confirms from it which implies it's not all of it right okay yeah that makes sense isn't it alamah so this is chapter 5 verse 48 of Surah Al MAA um it says we have revealed to you oh Prophet this book with the truth as a confirmation of previous scriptures and a supreme authority on them so judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their desires over the truth that has come to you to each of you we have ordained a code of law and a way of life if Allah had willed he would have made you one Community but his will is to test you with what he has given each of you so complete with one so compete with one another in doing good to Allah you will all return then he will inform you of the truth regarding your differences yeah I mean it's it's very clear because the main thing I want to actually point out here is not just the muhim bit but also when he says so judge between them by what Allah has revealed now clearly you know whenever we find these ayats about discussing about the previous scriptures as well it talks about the revelation of Allah because the Christians don't believe that Jesus got the message directly from God the gospels were written decades or even centuries after Jesus Christ Jesus did not go about you know with the New Testament and raise arm so it's not a revelation even from their perspective then how can they say that the Quran which is a revelation and the injil which is a revelation the Torah which is a revelation and the zubor which is revelation of Allah how can they say that these are actually the same as what for example is mentioned in the bible yeah because most of these we cannot Trace back uh who offered them even we don't know even when they were written some of them cuz everything from the first 100 years after Jesus Christ we have zero manuscripts what about old manuscript big we have more books uh until the third or fourth Century they were not canonized yeah happen itself happened in the fourth Century much later what about all the others that they burnt and destroyed and and and what is the original language at least for the Quran at least for the Quran you can always fall back on the Arabic that is the original language you haven't got anything in the in its original form so how can you can you just like come and say it's authentic yeah so related to that so this is something that I want to emphasize that I don't think was emphasized enough in the debate which is Dean's position on the in so what Dean so Dean I think there might have been an impression and I think Chris might have thought that Dean is saying that the inal is Mark through John Matthew Mark Luke and John but really what Dean is saying is that it's uh the inil is something given to Jesus but we have some of it recorded Within in the gospels where Jesus goes and he like preaches something like a parable that's given to him by God this is a version of the inil obviously it would be likely translated and stuff but this is the inil yeah gave example actually he did give an example of the parable of one of The Parables yeah but he doesn't actually believe that that when he says injil we don't we don't say that that is the actual which was revealed to Isam right it's a remnant of that but there are things like the prophet sallu alai wasallam said so some of it we believe and is because in Arabic we call them is so there are there are portions which what whatever doesn't contradict the Quran or the Sunnah we go in line with it whatever like the gray matters we leave and what is what is different than us we don't we don't believe in that's it yeah that's right yeah yeah so there are some Parable how are you Al-Yemeni joins the panel-discussion doing so there there are Parables particular and a lot of sayings of Jesus that have um that show up in Hadith literature so uh for um and then there's one at least one Parable in the Quran which Dean mentioned he mentioned in Matthew chap 25 it has a bunch of Parables but the opening one is uh a parable of the virgins and 10 lamps and you have a very similar story in you know the one with the Hypocrites are asked they're said go fetch some more light and then a wall the ex very similar Parable yeah yeah very similar Parable in Matthew chapter 25 so that's probably something from theil and it's you see it's recorded within the four gospels but it would probably not be like the direct uh speech of Allah that we have in the gospels but it would be like a translated form because most likely the inil was in Aramaic or Hebrew yeah not Greek there is also even like the camel going through a needle's eye also so yes yeah I mean that's look uh for me you know it suffices to say that the what the Quran confirms you know even if it's not Verbatim what Jesus or isaam had received as Revelation so it might not be the exact language and the exact wording so maybe there's some remnant of Truth so if the Quran and the Hadith confirm it then we say yes this is you know something that we accept uh and if it doesn't say anything then we remain agnostic and if it is the opposite or contradictory to what the Quran and Sunnah says we reject that and this is the principle we understood if says to you that Allah is one are you gonna say no Allah is not one Subhan Allah Allah is one Allah is one that's it we agree with you but you know for them the one one is three don't forget yeah yeah you have to be careful take everything with a pinch of salt when they say it's it's it's it's by one get the get get two for free sh you're going to ask for one pizza they're going to give you one third of the pizza and they say that's so um now again I said that I think Chris didn't fully understand that that he's not saying Matthew Mark Luke and John are the inel he's saying stuff inside it is like remnants of the inel because for example Chris quoted Mark 1:1 which says this is the gospel just paraphrasing this is the gospel El of Jesus the son of God which by the way there are other manuscripts that don't say son of God so even that one sh himself in the foot yeah but anyway like uh Dean is not saying Mark 111 which is like a title or like an introduction to the gospel by the author he's not saying that is inel because that's like he's explicitly saying that the narratives in theil like the stories are not the in but rather it's the same of Jesus like whenever he preaches Revelation like if he gives a pro a prophecy as part of a parable well that's from God because you know if he has a prophecy that's a revelation yeah uh you know funny enough actually they do mention this in the footnotes I don't know about the KJV but the NIV certainly does so if you look at John 1 can Mark oh sorry Mark 111 that's what I've got on here so mark11 it says the beginning of the good news so the good news is um you know we translate theel as good news as well and there a gospel um because it says the beginning of the good news about the about Jesus the Messiah the Son of God I think that's an addition if you ask me because it says here very clearly some manuscripts do have the Son of God yeah so you know by their own admission they are telling us that that book is getting corrupted yes is being corrupted and and they are the ones admitting it for me aah is something that when Allah reveals to them it's from Allah and you are not supposed to change it doesn't matter if you're the pope or the entire Council whoever it is you know you can't just go about changing the words of God and that's exactly what Surah Al bakar says chapter 2 verse 79 isn't it go to those who actually chain the words of God and uh [Music] oh that might have been me I was typing okay no no there's some audio okay uh that's fine no problem so yeah in I mean this is uh something that they themselves admitting that the books have been corrupted if they can make major changes like this you know at the Son of God when he's saying Jesus the Messiah uh it clearly shows that they have been uh onto this from very early on uh so I don't know how they can compare this to the Quran where everyone you know including the Christians know that the Quran is something hasn't been tempered with and they haven't showed us any evidence of tempering in the Quran they somehow misunderstand and this includes Chris and he brings this up quite often uh on his uh sorry I speakers cor and so on where he says that this different K these are the different words versions of the Quran I mean how how you have to be to to say that the Quran has different versions when these are the different K and these were t to the prophet to the companions by the prophet sallallah Ali wasallam himself you know it's mentioned the as well I think you guys are giving Chris a bit more a bit too much charity to say that he's misunderstanding things no he he knows exactly what our position is and he deliberately misconstrues it whether it's with regards to the Bible or the you know I had a discussion well I didn't have a discussion with him about the but I saw him with s and he knew exactly what he was saying right I mean it was all wrong you could be absolutely right you know they can be deceptive in that way you know because after all this is what missionaries have been doing for centuries so I'm not surprised that they following in the footsteps after all you know JM had been lying openly at Speaker's Corner for so many years well exactly how many how many people has he converted in the 25 years that he was in the UK I didn't see anyone as Speakers Corner that many yeah big fat zero good he can have her all yours Allah only blesses those who are sincere Allah to those who are sincere this is Allah doesn't give to those who are liars insincere as it's mentioned that you know we give them the worst of us and we is that your audio we can hear the feedb yeah that is your yeah it was it you know what I think I might have are you playing something else on your YouTube I'm not I'll come back it seems to be some error no that's fine I mean yeah if you can just exit and come back inshallah so I don't know y did you have a chance to watched the debate uh no I didn't watch the debate because I saw Avery and Chris and I was like it's not beneficial yeah so I was like no I'm not going to but I i' watched the highlights that uh brother ibraim uh put out yes and it was exactly as I expected you know Mis misconstruing double standards backtracking you know uh admitting things for the sake of academic uh what's um what's the word I'm looking for he's a charlatan what do you expect yeah well exactly so uh yeah absolutely not and the thing is when we when we recently did our uh introduction to the Old Testament we displayed exactly what the Quran and the Sunnah mentioned with regards to the Bible and how different it is and how the history is and but Subhan Allah but but obviously when you do that and you have the evidences there they don't want to show up right no alhamdulillah so uh I believe you started a new series on your channel you want to remind us what that is again yeah so the new series is actually um dissecting the Old Testament right or the tanak dissected that's what we're calling it we had our introduction already where we asked the question what is the Torah what is the original Torah you know that was given to Moses and yeah and we displayed what it actually is from the Old Testament as they have it today what it describes it to be and the fact that it's not what what they describe it to to be you know Exodus 20 Exodus 24 Exodus 31 Exodus 34 tells us exactly what the Torah is and then we also went into the Christian understanding and how they dider with the Jews and then we gave them a breakdown of the Muslim understanding of what the Torah is and it's completely different in fact there is ath for example we we we Tred to site from Ahmed which mentions this is in relation toah A7 which is actually one of the AY that they try to use to say that the Quran affirms the Bible but there is a Hadith regards to this in Ahmed that mentions that came by uh you know a father and and a son they were both Jewish and he asked the father he was like I ask you by he who sent down the Torah do you find me prophesized in your book and described in your book and the the the father says no but the son interjects and says yes we do and I testify that you know Allah is you know there is no one worthy but Allah and that you are the messenger of Allah and then says to him says to his companions remove the the child from his you know remove your brother from from from from the Jew because he's trying to lead him astray so he actually displays that the Torah that was around in the seventh century not only had the prophecy of wasallam but he also had his description with them right mallah I believe that was uh the story of uh was this son dying or something like that if I remember that's a different one was that a different one A different right a different one yeah there was a neighbor that was a neighbor to the Mansur joins the panel-discussion prophet welcome brother man I don't know did you have a chance to watch the debate or or the highlights uh with Chris and uh Dean can you hear us was there a lag um I don't know on your side can you hear what I said or yeah yeah I mean is there a l in my speech or can you hear me directly no we we hear you okay no no we can hear you fine it's yeah yeah so I was just asking if you had the opportunity to watch the debate between Chris and thean response okay I know why because there's a tab open I was um yeah before I joined okay usually the case yeah yeah I I watched most of the debate um right if you want to call it a debate yeah yeah okay usually I mean I don't normally do debate reviews um of insignificant people at all when there's no need to promote people who don't know the subject matter in the first place but because the reason I'm here specifically um earlier today I want to make sure that uh we really give a thumbs up meaning we encourage our brother Dean response because he's quite young and uh there are a few things that uh we can talk about in terms of the approach and the directions inshallah which will help our new Young duat to to really come into Islamic apologetics with proper approach and we will as we go along we'll talk about insh what we mean by proper approach it's not just simply knowledge of the subject matter there are other Associated discipline one needs to really practice and Implement at the same time and one of the big thing is of course as we on on as we go along the debate you will see uh that it didn't come out very well but U you know as a young and especially I think this is what what's to blame and from as a disclaimer I think it's the platform our young dats are immersed in things like Tik Tok and others in which their constant um ridicu mockery sarcasm and things like of this nature in which they react to it so they're reactionary to this and it's possible because of this how are young influence so inshallah we want to start um this is just just the beginning we will bring in hopefully other young dats who are very knowledgeable on the subject but in terms of how we can help and support them with the proper Islamic uh etiquette in terms of interactions with other members of different religious faiths or ideologies or none so that the Islamic position from the debate comes out very clear that someone's representing Islam rather than someone representing a very young passionate Tik tocker or you know other I don't know want call it snapchatter or YouTuber but someone really representing the case of Islam with the right approach so I watched the debate um just for that reason um and and not really because uh the inter that he had is not worth uh a debate I mean this is my take from The Speaker's Corner the interaction that I had had with number of uh people there but you know how people become influences in social media um from other Fates it's interesting to see and perhaps as we go along we can talk about it because you don't need to know your subject you don't need to know the subject of your interlocutor the other person that you're engaging with all you need it seems like in certain religious communities especially what I've noticed uh in in Christian circles in their apic uh discussions youit theatrics you need a lot of theatrics and that seems to be the case that seems like attracting uh the attention and followers or fans rather I want to call it rather than followers fans because if you have someone performing quite well in the theatrics like if you have a celebrity footballer you don't need to know the you know the wise speech that comes out from that footballer you know interest in the speech what are you interested in the performance which is football so when someone is in in theatrics you are interested not in the performance on the subject matter in terms of their posture their rhetoric and their theatrics and that seems to be the driving goal but unfortunately in the long term people won't realize and don't realize that this is not going to help the aptic Community because sooner or later people will find out that you have no substance it's just Noise Okay so this is why you know once you will see that as probably mentioned by Hashim earlier on we start boycotting these theatrical performers because there's no reason to engage with people when they're not engaging with a spirit of exchange of information in which both parties learn because debate should be not just a winning thing that you should also learn from the debate those who are watching um and those who are actually reflecting on it but if you are only doing all of these kind of discussions and debates only to show yourself how charismatic you are or how you know you know comedian you are or so on no one's going to really learn and improve in their behavior in their attitude in their character in their search and implementation of truth because ultim it's all about truth so if people are not interested in the truth and the you know demonstration of truth then you know alhamdulillah for Islam we are and we will always aim this is what we have demonstrating the truthfulness of Islam so even though we may be very dry and very uh rough and not that much charismatic um with theatrical performance at the end of the day it's the truth that matters and this is what we will learn in from from this uh review hopefully I don't want to prolong any any later but um inshallah as we say we are getting to know our young doat and um preliminarily what I can say is I am personally really impressed by the depth of knowledge on the subject matter they're going into and they're very young um very young and that's why you probably find some of this young du that would come they probably would not want to show their face and so on because of lots of uh obvious reasons they're in college or going to University and so on they don't want to you know have any impact in there so it's fine if people want to not show their face and so on we shouldn't really ask and question you know why are you not showing because they will come a time when they can come quite openly and say okay this is what is but if they want to you know not reveal uh or conceal the identity that's absolutely fine right uh you're absolutely right here that's excellent advice as well uh so yeah there are a lot of young DS who hang around on Tik Tok on other social media platforms and many of these youngsters mashallah have really good knowledge and also the skill set required for a debate you know like Young Brother Dean response mashallah brother Ibrahim here you know brother Ramsey uh all these are you know jenzy um you know Tik Tok generation youngsters mashallah uh so alhamdulillah you know we should encourage Brothers like that because at the end of the day uh we are preparing them you know mentoring them uh in the right way if they do approach us then inshallah you know with our experience we can mold them in a way which is going to be productive for them and for the dawa itself for the da scene but if they go unchecked you know they do their own things they don't have the experience they might say something which might be detrimental to another Muslim or to uh a group then you're the one who's going to get in trouble and that's going to stay on your record uh for a very long time because once it's on the internet it remains on the internet uh as you all know so yeah inshallah you know that if there are people out there uh who are young and who are passionate about the dawa and who have the knowledge and the skill sets for a debate then do approach us our email is dawi gmail.com and we'll have a look at your profile look at look produ as content already and inshallah depending on that we will either give you a platform or maybe ask you uh you know give you some suggestions inshallah uh because uh I remember when brother Jake you know Mah who was very stud he badly had any following on his channel you know alhamdulillah we gave him the platform we gave him the opportunity to debate uh this was you know Allah subhana tala brought us together and mashah today he's not only our teacher but he's mashah uh helping the dawas seen a lot um I think James White is the you Jake was the only person that James White actually praised you know which I've never seen James White do that ever for any Muslim so alhamdulillah that was a really positive sign and um brother ibraim as well Mah you know he's got a channel he not that big but you know people like that also brother Yani all these youngsters mashah they got a lot of talent a lot of knowledge and as duat as people with um you know bigger platforms they should definitely encourage these brothers you know because at the end of the day we are one umah uh and we have the same purpose you know we all proclaim the Ted and we all work that the world you know try to promote the toed during our dawa and this is always been our main aim main objective so with the right mentoring with the right um um you know perhaps uh training coaching whatever you to call it uh inshallah these uh rough diamonds will shine inshallah in the future all right so we've got another brother in the back Studio this is a AJ joins the panel-discussion friend of Brother Dean U brother AJ how you doing you're right I'm doing good I'm doing good alhamdulillah how you guys doing yeah alhamdulillah so tell us a bit about yourself because we are new to who you are so in just I'm going to switch off my camera for a while but I'll be listening in yeah yeah that's yeah yeah so for now really I don't really upload videos but I plan to soon but on the background I help other brothers like Dean um form form content and bring resource together and on Tik Tok you know that's like more of the place I'm more active on for now okay so you're another Tik talker around uh right so um what do you think of the debate I don't know if you watched it the one with um between Dean and Chris and what are with regards to that yeah I watched it before in fact I saw the presentation before the debate and I knew like Chris was not going to he he didn't have a chance but in the actual debate I don't think he I don't know if someone mentioned this already but he didn't really understand Dean's position because as soon as Dean gave his uh finished doing his um beginning his intro he says yeah yeah yeah I agree the the Quran affirms the Bible gener but he doesn't understand what what de means by generally because he say um de says the by generally he means whatever agrees with the Quran and Sunnah but then he says that criteria is uh circular but he doesn't understand he's doing like a internal critique he's going for our world view so it's not a circular thing to give our criteria and how we come to a conclusion on what's right and wrong and what's actually from theil or not so he doesn't understand these position and that's why he made the way through the debate he pretty much ConEd that's what I said that as well I exactly what really following the the arguments he you know after the debate when he did a video sort of reviewing it he he accused dean of not just sticking to like a script and not interact but really I think it was Chris who was just sticking to the talking points and not really listening to see what Dean's uh position is which is weird because from what I know like Chris was told in advance what his position was so you would think you would better understand it but yeah exactly it's like he changed position like halfway through the debate try save face okay why do you think he did that who Chris I mean come on like it's part of the Christian rhetoric even like even God logic he I think out points there was points where he tried to fake her laugh to try undermine Dean's position when there was nothing to laugh about it's just Paul there that's right that's right yeah brother yeah that's something I saw as well that he was like shifting his positions like for example when I asked him a question I asked him like so the very scholar you're quoting has a whole commentary on like trying to go through almost every Ayah in the Quran and connecting it to Something in the Bible or the Tet or whatever so obviously the author of the Quran has a lot of knowledge yet yet he his opening statement he said the Quran is wrong because it says Jesus wasn't crucified whereas the gospel say Jesus was crucified so that's a contradiction so I as him like how can he be so knowledgeable that he's even playing with the Hebrew of the Bible but he doesn't even know that Jesus isn't crucified according to the gospels and in his response he said oh actually I don't think the Quran says Jesus is crucified I think Muslims are misinterpreting it now why but you put in the opening statement that uh it's a you said the Quran gets it wrong and then I also have a clip in his I think rebuttal one he's like why does the Quran get things wrong because I think the author of the Quran just heard stuff and he just assumed that the Bible didn't actually say this so he corrected it but he just thought Jews and Christians were making it up so so in this in this view the author of The Quran really doesn't know anything about the Bible yet later on when I asked him a question I'm like how can you have this whole commentary written on the Quran uh interacting with the Bible and even with the Hebrew and this and that and then he's like oh yeah it is true that the Quran is very knowledgeable about about the Torah and the gospel and even rare texts like the T like I was trying to stress like this stuff was not popular like it's the TMA these sorts of things H how can it be and he's so he like is giving multiple opinions and I think the sheh mentioned before that when it suited him he was trying to say Muhammad is the author of the Quran and when it suited him he was putting in multiple authors he was like switching positions it was so it was very inconsistent for me hey hey uh ibraim I F I found it because like I've just I've just been sent by Brother Hashim so I tried to look at it while I was doing other things but he was uncomfortable with when Brother Dean was uh was questioning him he wasn't he wasn't studying his answers and uh he was finding it difficult in coming with answers yeah yeah it was way I wanted to discuss with regards to what somebody sent me this clip about Chris blaming you like cheating or something what do you what do you what do you how do you respond to that yeah I'll respond to him by telling him yeah I I was texting on my phone but who said I was texting Dean I was just playing around you know actually every stream I do I look at my phone a lot of times because I'm doing other stuff on my phone I don't know how he got this he's like I'm looking down so I must be texting Dean my answers like what kind of flimsy evidence is that I mean maybe now we know why they think the Quran affirms everything in the Bible based on very flimsy evidence that this is their criteria oh the only word you've got is cope that's it I mean you can say the same for God logic as well he was looking down at his pH too but now I'm sorry I live in 2024 you know I I don't watch the video I have I can multitask yeah and yeah exactly AJ we can say the same thing about God logic he was looking down and he must be texting as well or maybe somebody else can you don't even have to be a moderator to text someone you could reive text from anyone in this day and age isn't it it's just a crazy I think he was trying to like he figured out that I was texting Dean and I was gpta yeah yeah I was sometimes looking it up looking up so that people don't know I'm texting but it's like if I wanted to hide this you know I could just like type on my computer to him brother all have got it next to us why why do this if I wanted to hide it I could just like look I could go on Discord I could message someone no one would know exactly if I did it through my laptop it's just being insecure but I think that was um an allegation it was a slander actually and he should apologize for that because this is something that even Jesus taught them that do not judge others yeah they should remove the Splinter from their own eye before they remove the lock from somebody look at the lock from in somebody else's eye so yeah this is exactly you know I done debates and people text you during debates they uh like DM you they because they're all trying to help you but it's like when you're in a debate you can't actually like stop and read those messages so like even if I was texting it would be useless because as a debater when you're talking you obviously can't read messages and then when the other side is talking you have to like write notes down and you have to like look for some stuff like sometimes you have to Google a verse you remember a verse but you don't know exactly where it is and this sort you don't have time to like say oh let me see what all the tips are saying like the max you could do is maybe read one or two messages but silly maybe some people can multitask more than others I don't know so it's it's crazy it's a crazy allegation you know like uh if Dean wasn't prepared he wouldn't have come for the debate uh the fact that he actually being maybe half your age uh was able to do quite a good job in his first moderated debate so Chris that speaks volumes you know if you're watching this uh do bear in mind it was um someone much younger than you and he debated to you um without any um excuses making lame excuses like somebody else helping him I don't think in his review he would have said anything like that so you're just making excuses because you realize that you have lost You' have done a bad job you can create you know thumbnails saying that you won but that is just your it's just a pipe dream for you you know that you have won do the job properly and then make these claims and pat yourself on the back say you want uh so anyway let's uh let's have a watch at some of these uh Clips uh so shall we start with uh your highlights yeah we should but before that I actually want to make a a a couple other points that are I think are relevant so first of all as I was discussing about Dean's position on in G it's important to point out because the way Chris sort of frames it is like oh if the Quran speaks about inil obviously it must everyone in the audience must think it's Mark Matthew Mark Luke and John but actually the word gospel is ambiguous even among Christians like they use it for an individual gospel like the gospel of Mark the gospel of you know and then even apocryphal gospels like the Gospel of Thomas this and that so it can be used in this sense and then it can also according to Mark according to mat and then it can also be used in a sense to refer to all four gospels as if it's one gospel it can also be used in the sense of like the overall message it can also be used in the sense of like Paul says my gospel and not your gospel so again the message is someone and then Jesus the way he uses it when he says I've come to preach the gospel he's not saying I've come to preach Matthew Mark Luke and John or this and that he's using it in a different way himself so the word gospel is ambiguous and the Quran tells you which definition of gospel it's using which is what Jesus uses when he says says I've come to preach the gospel uh so that's something important also when uh it just it literally just means good news isn't it so it could be good news of God from anyone yeah and then when we say that uh like when Dean says that his view of the Gospel is that it's this it's the stuff Jesus preaches within the gospels it's recorded that way this is actually uh uh in line with how early Christians viewed um Jesus and the authority because earliest the earliest Christians don't actually quote Matthew Mark Luke and John stuff like that they don't really quote narratives stories about Jesus and this and that what they quote are sayings of Jesus these are like the sayings of the Lord and this and that so what was actually authoritative for early Christians was the Hebrew Bible and then the sayings of Jesus they didn't have a gospel with narratives Matthew Mark Luke and John in my opinion and opinion of others Matthew Mark Luke and John are all second century documents uh based on oral traditions and this and that I'm not saying just because they're second century that the stories in it are unreliable necessarily but what I'm trying to say is from the early quotations what we see is they actually quoted the sayings of Jesus so that's actually in line with Dean's view like what I'm trying to say Dean's view of what the go gopel is is in line with the earliest Christians their views on what was authoritative which is the sayings of the Lord meaning the sayings of Jesus and finally I also want to address because inevitably this will come up which is different Muslim views of the Torah so why do we have like John fontaine's view which is that it's a different Torah and then Dean's view which is that the Torah is the pentat and the majority of it is preserved but a minority of it is corrupted which is the view he took in the debate and then you also have some Muslims they'll say the that it is the pentat but most of it is corrupted and that's true that Muslim Scholars throughout the centuries have had different views so you have one view that uh you you you have some extreme views like there's zero corruption and then that there's 100% corruption that you could even use it as toilet paper that's how corrupted the Bible is and then you have a uh I mentioned there some people said you can even use it as toilet paper this is how corrupted it is and then uh you have the view that the majority of it is corrupted and then you have the view that the minority if it's corrupted and then you have also a view that the Torah is more corrupt than the gospel which Dean also took that view so Chris thought this was inconsistent that why is he saying that the gospel is more corrupt than the Torah but this is actually a Muslim view it's based on the fact that the Quran talks more about it doesn't talk much about the gospel anyway uh so the reason you're getting a I I would say the main reason you're getting a difference between John Fontaine saying it's a different Torah and Dean's position is because we don't actually have manuscripts of the Torah from Arabia from Medina so when Dean says it's the HEB it's the old test it's the Old Testament pent he's making an inference because he's like everyone else you know other Jews had this so the the best inference is the Jews in Medina had this as well as for John Fontaine he's not willing to grant that uh that inference So when you say inference sorry Hashim you know another thing where where another thing which he thought he scored there but he was really out of he was out of his depth when he mentioned the the story of uh L with his daughters he he was questioning why the Quran does not mention it then I mean how low can you get to depend on something such as that to disprove or approve or prove that the Quran is is is not uh is not reliable and that that your book is not correct is not uh then he questioned about the the so-called lies of uh of ibraim and in there there is the the point of view of the Muslims we talking about the meaning I am sick of your o of what you worship so in there as far as so many scholars are concerned it wasn't a lie we have got a had that in Ali that said that IIM lied three times but but it's still it's I I don't not know why he was bringing them it's they were they didn't help him because brother then mallah refuted refuted them like pretty well but is that is that his best he could come with come up with yeah and also they have to know that Dean said that according to him prophets don't commit major sins major sins it's the it's the it's that's the the the ongoing they they can they can commit mistakes and Allah corrects them like it happened to the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam he committed mistakes and Allah corrected him but they are infallible when it comes to major sins okay I just want to quickly bring an attention um to make this very clear from the outset Muslims are not confused what the inil is but it seems like contemporary Christian pists they're all confused and who knows why because the Quran is very clear what the injil is why would someone if they have read the Quran what it says about the injil would consider this is the gospels that they have with them Mark Matthew Luke and John why would it uh Hashim do you mind just putting up on the screen Surah Al Imran Ayah 48 okay so we want to show to the whole audience how you know it's it's really strange I mean if we're this is the very beginning of Isa Alam when Allah is giving Glad Tidings to maram the mother of Christ and he say Allah tells us exactly what he's going to do um in terms of what he's going to be doing to people what he's going to teach to people and so on and this is where it's a key passage in the Quran to identify what the injil actually is yeah bear in mind Jesus grew in wisdom according to the Bible yeah yeah here we go so if you see just before that if we just go Ayah before and two I before so basically here when the Angels Came and Mary wondered how can I have a child when no man has touched me and Angel replied so it will be Allah creates whom he Wills when he decrees a matter he simply tells it being and it is and then the next Ayah tells us Allah says and Allah will teach him who Christ the son of Mary Allah will teach Christ writing the kitab or the book wisdom HK the T and the gospel so the inil is what Allah will teach him now looking at historically and what and understanding this contextually this first if even on the AY inshallah did Christ pen and write the Gospel of Mark Matthew Luke and John obviously not it was the other authors so are the Christians from this understand that Allah will taught him Christ The Gospel written and penned down and authored by Matthew Mark Luke and John is that what what they understand from it because clearly Allah is teach Allah is going to teach him the gospel if the gospel was not around during the lifetime of Christ how can it refer to these gospel that Christian have in their hands whether it's the gospel of Mark Matthew Luke and John I mean it doesn't take a lot of reflection to understand that this cannot ever refer to those four gospels at you know which has been which has been authored by people after Christ has been ascended isn't that the Christian understanding Ibrahim that none of those gospels were available during the time of Christ the son of Mary yeah exactly that's the that's the Christian understanding but what they try and say is the Quran must mean Matthew Mark Luke and John because it says the the it says they find the prophet written with them in the Torah in gospel but as dean explained his position is that it's not that Matthew Mark Luke and John are the inel but they have portions or remnants of the inel with them because these gospels they record Jesus preaching what was he preaching in The Parables proph he's preaching the word given to him like you know how he talks about the good word and like sewing the word this and Jesus went and he preached the word of God stuff like that yeah so just just to clarify then for all of the audience who are listening um just to make things as simple as possible would according to this quranic Ayah Allah would teach the inil to Christ how does that square up with the gospels of Matthew Mark Luke and John because there's no way Allah would be teaching them those gospels to Christ because the gospels were not authored during the time of Christ so how can it refer to that so Islamic position is that Christ was given the gospel and taught the gospel the inil by Allah subhana wa tala which he preached and those good news or the message that he preached the gospel that is preached of course was heard by people and later recollected and some of those recollection in whatever form they exist can be found traces of them or a big portion of them or small portion of them in those gospels attributed to Mark Matthew luk and John that's continue to verse 52 I mean verse 50 you should have continued to verse 50 because verse 50 gives us something which is absolutely they uh they don't see it in in chapter chapter 3:1 15 yeah I mean do you mind just quoting it inshallah affirming what his before his hands from the Torah and making allowable something which been disallowed before where is this in the inel of Mark Luke Matthew and John whereby the Christ is making something allowed which has been disallowed in the Torah I think this refers to the the laws that he is it the the ab obligation of the Torah of the Torah yeah yeah don't find it in the in the gospels yeah yeah so the position of the Muslims brother Ibrahim will expound further inshallah is of course Christ was taught by God the inil so inil is not the authors that they are familiar with it cannot refer to Matthew Mark luk and John but what was taught by Christ and preached by Christ this was available to people in various forms and various portions of it and you can also find that these were not only restricted to the four gospels you have 14 sayings available like in Gospel of St Thomas collected by another author so various gospels were written and not only the four gospels which are now in the canonical New Testament but there are so many other gospels I think about 49 or so extent uh Little by Little Portion by portion here and there and gospel of Camus being a very well known one I mean some people consider this to be the Fifth Gospel so when we realize that these information or the teaching of Christ his sayings his statements are all available this is what the Quran is talking about that he preached to people the inil that God gave him that God taught him but it doesn't necessarily mean this is exactly what you have so when they equate the other verse other ayat of the Quran that you know you know whatever is between their hands and so on and so forth they have to understand with this Ayah and other ay where inil is something that been taught by Allah himself so it was given to him not necessarily something what Mark Matthew luk and John wrote yeah and just by the way the between their hands that they always translate is a terrible translation uh if it's like if you look at other ayat in the Quran it's it's clear this is an Arabic phrase it means like what's in front of you uh it doesn't literally mean between their rul just to give you an example when we recite aat okay you will find here in it talks about uh do you remember just to to bring that portion there where Allah talks about this Allah knows so does Allah means what's between their hands and what is behind their backs is that what it means has any Muslim exit understood that way that when Allah says he knows between you your hands and what is behind your back behind it means this of course not as as brother Ibrahim saying it refers to what is the what what's gone for example by what is present and previous yeah yeah um AJ um in terms of hello yeah yeah yeah I just want to bring you in in when Hashim comes out we'll start playing the clips exactly what do you think about the title of the debate the if I'm not wrong it was just this the Quran the Bible it was a it was that's the Quran from the previous scriptures wasn't it uh I'm looking at the stream right now I think it says the there the Quran from the Bible or previous scriptures either way I don't think it refers to the Bible Ibrahim uh let me actually see yeah it was actually it's it did say there's a Coran from the Bible that was their title their title so how many debate title was it um just one uh I think you were looking at brother ibrahim's uh video which one are you looking at No I um let me when I when I watch it yeah so God logic had it as uh what I have on the screen there that's a Quran from the Bible uh speaking of uh God logic somebody actually sent a message earlier uh from from the UAE I think saying please refrain from saying God logic is blasphemy say no logic or anything else you're literally saying is it yeah it is look if you believe in that it's obviously blasphemy but you know like when we are dealing with apologetics and pmics uh we say son of God because it's what's in the Bible we don't actually believe that uh we actually you know even when Christians speaking they talk about the about their Godfather or godm so you see just because we are quoting it doesn't mean we have to believe it we quote a lot of things which are shery in their nature from their own scriptures uh the same thing when we discuss with the Hindus it's the same thing so just because you quote something uh you or you refer to someone uh it doesn't mean you actually have to believe in it yourself okay but understand your concern brother right so where were we I think we can pull up the highlights now yeah we can play the highlights now in do you want to start from the beginning or yeah yeah yeah I think um slamic highlights yeah that's the one right so what we're going to do is we're going to play a minute or less uh discuss it and then yeah we'll play like they're they're actually like a few Clips together so I'll I'll tell you when when like one clip ends and then we can discuss okay so why don't you take control maybe yeah okay yeah sure the but the issue is that if I do it there'll be ads that play oh I see okay okay I'll do it then on my side because we don't want ads or any music because that can actually get us um a copyright um claim or something like that so yeah let me play it because I've got the Premium Edition noad alhamdulillah um yeah there it is so you just tell me when to stop when to start in yet again we have the fact that uh heavens and earth were created in six days by Allah and he says that he was not even touched with fatigue in Exodus we see that God is said to have made the heavens and earth in six days and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed yet again from Exodus the clear indication that The Chronic author knows stuff from Exodus and is intentionally uh going ahead and editing it as it doesn't confirm the quranic does not confirm absolutely everything it is true right that the Quran has a lot of knowledge on the Torah and and other things as well and also the inil in what it considers to be the inil it assumes the reader has knowledge of these things but at the same time it contradict but again if the Quran is so much extensive knowledge even to the point where it's interacting with the Hebrew and rare Texs rare text like the T then surely the author of the Quran knows that in certain cases it's intentionally uh contradicting what the Bible says doesn't that show us that he doesn't believe the Bible is fully preserved I mean it would be impossible to think that he even knows the Hebrew but he accidentally makes mistakes about certain details of the story even though certain details come up as like reputations like Solomon didn't disbelieve instead of saying like that that seems like a response right so actually play his reaction then we'll stop you want to play the reaction okay you guys can all see the screen properly yeah yeah yeah um so yeah the idea that if you find disagreements that best position to take is that the Quran is aware of this and is correcting it I think again is somewhat circular it is true right that the Quran has a lot of on the Torah and and other things as well and also the in yeah I mean this is like an example of what I when I said he doesn't understand he was wasn't following the arguments like I still say he knows I still say that he knows he just realized what what had happened so he backtracked and tried to give a different narrative and this is why he even you know leaned so heavily on gab Reynolds without reading page three that was hilarious is completely ignorant of that fact you know like made your question whether he actually read the book or just Authority but this is not this is not unique to uh Chris every single mainstream uh apologetic on their side right uh has realized that they cannot you know uh CR critique uh the Islamic View and the Islamic standpoint of the Bible using Islamic sources so they had to go to the orientalists to try to superimpose the orientalist understanding of what the Quran is trying to say in order to make that point and then page three comes along and destroys that as well that's true yeah and it's not just Christians I've seen you know people like rob you know the guy who was dealing with Evolution with brother Sabor Sabor yeah called him out on all the authorities that he quoted he barely has read any of the books no of course so yeah you know in a way you build up your persona that yes you're very familiar with all these works of all the scholars how academic you are but you crat the surface and the charlatan comes out yeah so the note to take here is this um a lot of Christians are now or critics are turning to orientalist to help uh you know somehow solidify their Viewpoint and in fact it's not what um they are trying to say so you have the pist Christians and when they go to the orientalist they don't support their view because the orientalists in fact are coming up with later and more and more Works showing how the Quran understands and not only knows what was even forgotten in in in the traditions and and discussions of the scholarly people within the christian jewi christian community and the Quran brings about the truth behind it so the example that you showed brother Ibrahim earlier on for example the very clear case of the creation of heavens and the Earth in six days and the biblical narrative is God rested and also he got refreshed on that day so why does the Quran something that is well known supposedly go against it um and yet Quran is supposed to be affirming it if the Quran is engaging with this so this shows how the Quran knows where the errors have crept in where the misattribution has happened in terms of either interpretation or textual amendation and the Quran corrects said Quran corrects theological doctrinal that is historical moral lots of these things so that people can come to realize what actually was in reality so the example about God and no fatigue touch him is a reputation of two things one is the idea that you have preserved your text throughout and another Concept in which you ascribe God that he needs refreshing and resting he somehow needs that because he was so busy and um active in creating in six days so seventh day has to rest and that's why the whole idea sa came Quran goes to modify this concept that this is not the case in fact you know God did indeed create in six days or six aam but no fatigue touched him this is Allah and this is just one example and then showed various other examples in which the Quran corrects their things so when it comes to correction the you know I don't know what do people not read the Quran when the Quran says the the protection was entrusted on the hands of the Elders of uh the Jewish Community their rabbis and so on and so forth and they failed to preserve it and and Quran highlights where they have gone wrong and had an impact on the teaching that they have corrupted and they have changed or amended so the idea that Orient IST will help you in fact the orientalist scholarship is gone a different you know T in Al together they acknowledge even when the Quran talks about that disbelievers those who say um that Allah is the Christ and Christians Community you know in the past is saying how can no Christian say God is Christ but they say Christ is God now we come to realize from some of the orientalist works but actually yes there are instan and situ ation in which this was the case and Quran clearly refutes this concept this was not even known I mean to the you know um the Tom Dian Harry pist uh in in Christian Community they have no idea about these things and they would even know unless they really went deep studying the earlier writings um in in in those you know languages of uh you know mil at that time when Scholars are unearthing in terms of what was there things about um many cases about maram Alam and what she said and so on you know these things demonstrates that Quran to them is very very familiar with the belief system that is around and Quran corrects it confirms it it changes the narrative by its own theological stance and it frames that narrative so it interacts with them in a in a rhetorical way often the thing is as well if you actually look at the Quran and the research and the knowledge that we have come to know with all the manuscripts and everything that has been discovered you will see that the Quran actually responds to most of the Apocrypha and Gnostic writings rather than the mainstream uh biblical tradition that they have today that's what you actually see there's not a lot of aspects I mean if we look at the old I just to clarify you mean with regards to the gospel right because people are going to get that confused uh no the Torah as well even with the with the Torah as well because we've been doing some research and inshah this will be coming out like even with the story of Adam in the Quran when you have and and the angels and stuff you don't actually find this in the in the Old Testament this is actually an apocryphal work right yeah for my for my no what he means is the story about Adam alisam and prostrating is is not in Genesis yeah it's not in Genesis but it is in some other Jewish other Jewish writings and it's not even like you know the the usual you know Apocrypha that you'd come across it's even The Fringe aspects of those yeah like it's something that you really have to do from my understanding that's the for the the Torah that's the minority because a lot of it is about mam anyway you know I haven't done like a a percentage analysis or anything yeah no I agree but this is what we be going to be covering inshah in Genesis 1 and two with our series um which is next month the beginning of next month but you know like you see within you know some aspects like the Quran when it's talking about there is a lot of things that are being spoken about which you don't find in the old test so where is this actually coming from you know how do you how do how do you if you're going to look at from a purely historical perspective without getting religion involved or anything and trying to discern where the story has come from you won't find that coming from from like mainstream Jewish belief so when you look at the history of in in Medina with the Jews and the Christians you can't it's impossible for anyone to say that could have even heard these stories from Jews and the Christians because they weren't mainstream they weren't things that were taught by them or or spoken about very much yeah so this is this is actually so what is what are like the orientalist answers for why in the Quran do we have stuff that overlaps with the Bible like the Old Testament New Testament but also like rinic literature and then Syriac Christian literature stuff like that but so there like two theories there are others I'm sure as well but from what I'm we there two main theories number one and this seems to be the majority is that they have this conspiracy theory uh which I've called them out on this so many times uh is that mecah it it it had a quote quote oral Bible culture and the Bible was floating around orally in Mecca so basically uh the qur in mecah there was the qur but they also tell you there were a bunch of Jews and Christians in mecah and they all just knew biblical Traditions orally it was embedded in the culture and they knew ttic traditions and and apocryphal Christian traditions and all this stuff and they're all holding hands I mean it's absolutely ridiculous uh uh as a claim because if you read the Quran and this is important because they base this claim that this is what the quranic audience was like they they use this from the Quran they say this is what the Quran implies to us but if you actually read the Quran you realize that any honest reading of the Quran completely refutes refutes them okay because for example after the story of Allah says that you didn't know this before neither you nor your people your nation this is from The Unseen and we have similar ayat chapter 10 that is surah h uh this what chapter 11 Surah and then you have other ayat for example after Story uh it says uh uh it's again emphasizing you guys didn't you didn't know this Muhammad you didn't know this when they were disputing about Mary and and whatnot and here's another one you weren't there with the people ofan reciting to them our aat you weren't at the tour like the the when we called to Moses uh speaking about the story of uh Jose yeah Yousef you weren't there when they were make the brothers they were making their plan and when they were plotting and uh in Surah I believe it says uh um something it says I didn't know the story of the like the Angels when they were disputing about Adam I forgot the Arabic does anyone remember it uh it says anyone remember the Ayah but anyway at the end ofah it says I didn't I I never knew Muhammad is told to say I never knew about the story about Adam and the Angels disputing over the creation of Adam Etc so there's this line of evidence with the Quran is explicitly denying this and it's actually using it as a proof of prophethood and then Allah also says you didn't write any you didn't you didn't read any writing before this nor did you wrote it write nor did you write it with your right hand otherwise the they would have doubted so what is this the Quran is using this as an argument for Islam now if there was this oral Bible culture floating around in Mecca you wouldn't expect a prophet to come up and use an argument none of you know the stuff but look it's in my book that doesn't make any sense get out the only the only the only non polytheist that was in in Mecca at the time it was the uncle of khad which is and he and and according to and others he was a noorian he he his the the the sect he he subscribed to was the noorian he was noorian in his belief and Subhan Allah when Khadijah took him to him he said to him that your people will will kick you out of meccah and if I am to live until then I would come in your support Subhan Allah and this is you don't find in the Bible alhamdulillah the example um sorry about the example that Dean was giving so he's establishing here the Bible is being constantly corrected by the Quran the author of the Quran not that it was an oral culture as you were saying and so on but rather the Quran is already aware the belief that people hat you know all around universally among the Christians and so on so the example another example that we can give now is the one about Joseph YF alisam and his brothers and mother and father and the prostration at the end yeah if you if you think when when the Quran says at the end okay this is how the interprets I know when the mother and father and they all came and they prostrated this is the interpretation of the dream the the prophecy that got fulfilled but if you look at the Bible if I'm not mistaken ibraim where the mother of Yu alisam already passed away so the prophecy about the you know all of these stars and so on will come and prostrate one of them is already missing see is already from the current text shows that it's a failed prophecy now what if this is already a Corruption of the text like the Quran is saying actually in historical reality of course this is how he Isam had that vision and he saw the Stars prostrating to him the number of stars representing the brothers and and his parents and at the end this has happened so this prophecy to be true of course in history that needs to be matched align with it the Quran gives you the actual historical detail in fact where this was the case but the Bible gives you an opposite picture which goes which actually refutes that um and questions rather the Prof profood of yuam Joseph because so what it what it is is so yfam has this dream that 11 stars and then the Sun and Moon bow down to him but then I think it's Genesis 35 his mom dies and the dream is interpreted as meaning his father mother and brothers are going to bow down so then the dream can't be fulfilled because his bomb dies but in the Quran at the end of the story when the dream is being fulfilled it says he he put his parents on the throne and they all bowed down to him so it's explicitly telling you his mother is alive and from what I know this was actually a problem for Jewish rabbis and they tried to come up with Solutions and one of them was that uh like his mother was resurrected just at the end so you can tell they're already trying to like solve the problem and yeah yeah question why would why would the Quran if it was simply affirming why would the Quran actually give this totally you know consistent narrative removing the inconsistency in there so is the Quran really confirming the Bible or is the Quran correcting the Bible correcting history but also when you look at theah for example when the Jews came to the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam and asked him the three questions and uh one of it was the PE the people of the cave and the second one was about uh isander sorry and third one yeah and sorry to I just you know my eye fell into that comment someone is saying Responding to a comment of Abdoulie Marong from chat-section God rested doesn't mean that God was tired if God that created uh God is the one that created tired and fatigue he says when it he said God rested that is metaphorical speak you aren't getting things right brother the man no I wasn't emphasizing this I was emphasizing on the bit which is God refreshed he rested and refreshed when would you need refreshing you would need when you rest and refresh refreshing is when you need to rejuvenate because something's already you know from your activity you something happened to your person your physique whatever be it comes to God he he needs to be refreshed because refreshing is to rejuvenate him of the activi is done so that's clearly an an instance in which you know there was fatigue and that refreshment necessary if it just simply said God simply rested then you can say like resting doesn't mean this but when you have this word also needs refresh he got refreshed then that uh consolidates our understanding that you know this is something uh they they have misattributed to God yeah so now I want to emphasize in this argument look the Discussion continues among the panelists whole Pro the whole argument that the Islamic dilemma presents and they also say this is why according to them atheists and Buddhists everyone can use the Islamic dilemma against Islam is that the Islam in confirms the Bible but yet it unknowingly contradicts the Bible because the author of the Quran didn't know what the Bible said therefore it's false it confirms something without knowing what's in it so what Dean was emphasizing and I was emphasizing is that when you look at the types of Corrections in the Quran yeah there's a lot of parallel with the Bible and stuff in the Quran a lot of affirming yes but there are also instances where there's a different detail the the types of uh changes we get indicate that the author knows what's in the Bible and he's intentionally correcting it this is not like he accidentally makes a mistake but he the types of changes we see indicate knowledge on the part part of the author so when we looked at the seven days one with the resting why would that why would the author of the Quran correct that well that's an obvious theological problem to say God rested so that makes sense that that's corrected with the yfam example why would his mom be alive well because it's a problem in the Bible because then the dream is unfulfilled and let me give some more examples to demonstrate this um let me see so this is something Dean brought up which is that in Exodus it says that when God gave Moses the miracle of the hand his hand was leprous now that it's not actually uh leprosy but it's a skin disease the Quran says his hand turned white without disease so why add that specific phrase without dis disease if it's not responding to this thing in the Bible it was a miracle actually in the case of M in the Quran yeah Quran corrects this misunderstanding because it's it's it's it's clearly engaging with the history which Quran considers to be not accurate and gives you the correct history exactly yeah here's another I just wanted to point out one thing with regards to that uh passage Exodus 31 verse 17 where he says it will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the Earth and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed now I see a dilemma here a Christian dilemma or a Jewish dilemma whatever you to call it because they both believe in the Bible especially J Christian dilemma yeah no but the Jews believe in the Old Testament is the Torah so it's for them both it says because the thing is Christians who believe in the six day uh sorry the young Earth creation they said that 6 days are the literal 24-hour period you know like we have a 24-hour day period for a day they say that these Six Days In which God created the heavens and the Earth were the literal 24-hour day period for the young Earth you those who believe in 6,000 year old Earth those who don't and I think those who don't are actually in the majority they will have to say that these six days are not 24 hour day per so it could be an Epoch it could be a huge it could be thousands of years but then the problem with them is also there because it says on the seventh day God rested and was refreshed if the days are not 24-hour period and it's much longer thousands of years the question is did God Rest for thousands of years as well you see it's it's a cash 22 for them either way anyway I never thought about that uh yeah that's interesting okay we have more examples yeah yeah so we have these three examples now here here's another one in the Gospel of Luke the angel comes and gives good news of the birth of John the Baptist to Zachariah and Zacharias asks for a sign and the angel is mad at him and he says like how dare you doubt me I'm going to make you mute for three days something like that now in the Quran the angel comes to Zakaria Zakaria asks for a sign and Angel responds positively like Allah will give you the sign that you're not going to be able to speak for three days and three nights except with like you know gestures sign language sort of uh gestures this sort of stuff so here we have something which is negative in the Gospel of Luke where the angel rebukes him and and tells him you're going to be mute for three days in the Quran it's clarifying this wasn't a rebuke of zakar because he's a prophet the Quran is not going to have him rebuked in that manner and we know from other passages of the Quran we have this trend where the Quran will often correct uh sins or major sins Etc major sins attributed or even kufur in the case of Solomon attributed to prophets so this is a trend okay here's another example number five surah h it says that the Angels who ibraim he brought food to them when they came to visit it says the Angels exactly so it says that when ibim he saw that the Angels they weren't even reaching their hands out to touch the food now why is this interesting first of all in Genesis when the Angels come to Abraham they eat food okay so the Quran is saying they didn't eat food actually but what makes this even more interesting is the idea that Angels don't eat food this is also found in Jewish tradition this is found in the Book of Judges I believe and then also the Book of Tobit which is a dudal canonical book now in some books where uh other like apocryphal books where they're telling the story of Abraham and the uh and and the angels and the yeah I think it's um I forgot the exact name but it is there that they say that the Angels they yes Genesis says they were eating the food so it looked like they were eating the food but they weren't actually eating it so to reconcile the fact that some places seem to imply that God does that Angels don't eat food and then others uh Genesis says the Angels ate the foodim doesn't it doesn't it also say that one of the one of the Angel was the Lord the angel of the Lord meaning that it was God himself that came I do think I do think Angel of the Lord probably you know there's a disagreement does that mean it's literally God or is it like yeah I think it's more likely a agency but Christians did obviously believe it's it's it's God and stuff it's God yeah yeah but anyway so the point is that you get this you get this tradition that it looked like the Angels were eating food but they weren't actually eating it so when the Quran denies that they ate food it doesn't just say the Angels didn't eat food it says when ibraim saw that their hands didn't even reach out for it meaning it didn't even look like they ate food so the way that's phrased that when he saw their hands didn't even reach eff the freezing of that is specific and it's freezed in a way where it tells you it's a response to something here's another example in the Book of Job job's children die in the beginning and then at the the end of the book uh he gets new children he gets the same amount of sons and daughters but he gets or he gets double sorry but he gets new children in the Quran it says that Allah gave him his family and similar to that so if you go to the tap one of the main opinions is that Allah revived his family and gave him more so it's not saying that Allah gave him double the children but he's saying he gave him back the family and others like him so there are so many that we can list the point being that when you see the types of differences they tell you this isn't like a mistake what this is is the author consciously restoring from the point of view of the Quran it's obviously telling you what actually happened but from Chris's point of view Etc they would say the Quran is like editing the Bible or like trying to make it in Accords with its theology regard it tells you that the quranic author doesn't have a problem with editing or revising biblical Traditions which shows he doesn't believe it's 100% authentic and Chris's response to that was it's circular yeah whole idea yeah go ahead continue brother I want to add on to that like I don't think he understood any of the counter points I think it was laid out perfectly by De and ibim that um the fact that the quranic author makes conscious edits shows shows that he doesn't believe it's 100% preserved right and he he I don't think it's possible to actually deduce circularity from that so instead what he does is he creates a straw man in which he can then attack um the position but it's not actually a representative of what ibraim said I think he's assuming that what ibra ibraim is saying is that saying that there's conscious edits presupposes the truth of the Quran but we can grant that these uh conscious edit even um we can grant that they aren't correct let's say they aren't correct right um it would still show that The Chronic author doesn't believe that the Bible is 100% preserved but he doesn't understand that yeah exactly I think we go on to the second highlight now yeah should we go on watch some more okay yeah carry on with the presentation yeah I'll be back shortly okay the clear indication that the quic author knows stuff from Exodus and is intentionally uh going ahead and editing it as it doesn't confirm AB the quranic auth does not confirm absolutely everything theic author knows that he's possibly either contradicting our tradition or contradicting the Bible but he's uncertain um well I mean I think he probably thinks that he knows that he's got it right I think that's what he's banking on yeah right but he knows it's a possibility because you right it's just it's it's a jab in the dark he's jabbing in the dark doesn't know if it's all tradition doesn't know if it's the Bible and yet is editing these Traditions he's hearing he knows it's possible that he's editing the Bible at this current Point what is written he knows that's a possible thing that is occurring yeah I mean it depends if you heard the correct all right because all tradition can have variance in like yeah yeah so so the quic author knows it's possible that he's editing content within the scriptures meaning basically consider to just conclude uh if you just go back to my questioning uh Chris actually indirectly ConEd the debate saying that the author the author of the Quran actually uh is jabbing in the dark and is is allowing for there to be room for the author of the Quran to edit parts of the Bible do the author of the Quran does not have certainty that he's only taking from all Traditions he's possibly editing biblical traditions and has no problem with that what does that show you about his attitude towards the okay that's it for this clip but you can see there he he he consider the debate sometimes I wonder whose side is Chris on so you know Chris is trying to do this whole thing where like he so according to him like I don't think he understands even what he's saying let alone what he's hearing so if the quranic author obviously we believe it's Allah so he knows everything but from his perspective it's some human who's writing this okay so but he admits that yeah he's editing Jewish Christian Traditions that he hears and he knows he might be editing something that's in the Bible he doesn't care he edits it anyway what does that tell you he doesn't believe the Bible is fully preserved because if he believe the Bible I said I don't know side he's on he's not gonna all right so we got mugre here in London so carry on with the uh presentation or you want to make some points AJ you want to make a point about that last comment of Chris uh yeah just as you guys said he doesn't whose side is he on he doesn't really understand and the fact that after the debate he had the audacity to make a thumbnail saying I've won the debate with a happy face like like okay bro I mean that's crazy isn't it is just either he's is delusional or he actually thinks he won the debate I don't know why I said that I think I know it sounds offensive I'm not trying to be offensive but I actually think he's slow because he literally admitted that he that he lost the debate in the debate he admitted that he agrees that the author doesn't might doesn't think it's fully preserved but he still thinks he won like do you not understand what just happened that's what I'm saying I don't know if he delusional or he actually thinks he won uh by the way you you said that he made this thumbnail where he said that he won uh we made a slight editing to that uh just like uh yes so yeah we we know that he lost yeah he just didn't want to admit it by saying that he won patting himself on the back without realizing how stupid he looks when he does that you know because to be honest you know like you you need to at least understand what you're saying I mean I can understand people don't understand what they're hearing from somebody else but what are you saying you you literally are saying your Bible is not preserved and it doesn't even click doesn't even click you know like we had to spell it out for you but even though we spelled it out he still won't understand it okay then we need someone you know who has more understanding to maybe you know educate him like us okay so yeah inshah uh sure carry on yeah yeah okay uh shake you can go quickly pray your M I'm going to join you uh just after this little few right so where was that tab here it is for example Dr no this is I think this is a bit too far isn't it Gabriel Reynolds and others have made this point as well people like Gabriel Reynolds is Gabriel Reynolds a scholar you is it I don't know you tell me yeah I think it's uh you might have been accidentally playing it I see yeah go go back go back uh go yeah when it says three that's where we want to start when it says three three minutes Oh you mean three okay yeah excuse me I don't know why I said it's in front it's in front uh it's in it's like 3 minute 15 seconds something like that I think yeah let's just play it from here it'll show up for the author of the Quran to edit parts of the Bible do the author of Quran doesn't have certainty that he's only taking from old traditions because he's possibly editing biblical Traditions has no problem with that what does that show you let me start it again excuse me all right I think I just saw the three so that's the right place what the inurance were exactly he couldn't read all right so he had to hear things he gets a lot of the stories generally right but then yeah it's at 3 minute 30 that's where it starts so 10 seconds before Muhammad whoever he was just I'm just concerned there's no AIO uh let me try one last time uh there is hear it hear it yeah yeah we could hear it all right let me do that again okay yeah now it's working was it 3 minutes 30 seconds yeah yeah yeah all right let me show it now for where exactly he couldn't read it right so he had to hear things that would explain why he gets a lot of the stories generally right but then totally contradicts the PRI scriptures without really having any knowledge of it he probably thought Christians and Jews were just making it up and didn't realize they were actually coming from scripture it is true right that the Quran has a lot of knowledge on the Torah and also tal and other things as well and also the inil in what it considers to be the inil it assumes the reader has knowledge of these things but at the same time it contradicts yeah like you know when I brought up that the scholar he's quoting even though the scholar believes in the conspiracy of the oral Bible culture but he's written a whole commentary trying to show how so many verses are connected to Something in the Bible or Rabbi literature and even saying there's stuff that the Quran is influenced by the Hebrew of the Bible then he at that point he's like yeah it's true the Quran knows very well but before he's like he doesn't even he the qur the Quran author doesn't even know the basics like come on it's complete contradiction and I think I'm going to bring up a couple examples of the Hebrew maybe we'll do this at the end of uh the reaction to this particular segment AJ do you have any thoughts um on that current clip no but uh I wanted I wanted to just say that um like I I just realized like I remember a clip of godic being asked what do you think the strongest argument against Islam is and obviously says the Quran affirms the Bible and I was just like thinking if this is their strongest argument it shows that they have no substance against us and I think that in of itself is like a proof for the veracity of Islam Hashim you have any thoughts or should I go into the Hebrew stuff yeah let's uh carry on has the clip finished or you want yeah the clip's finished yeah I just thought I'd give a couple examples of the Hebrew stuff I keep mentioning so first of all if you read uh four minutes you still got another 10 yeah but a lot of it is going to be similar so I that's fine so uh if you look at how the Covenant is given in the Hebrew Bible when the Covenant is given at the mountain Israel says to Moses that we're we're going to do the Covenant they say we we hear and we obey and the Hebrew is something like which means we hear and we obey and the Quran when it mentions that incident about Moses and the Covenant it says that the Jews said we hear and we disobey so note how it's like the Hebrew the Hebrew is sh and the Arabic is and it's likely that when the Quran says they said we hear and disobey which is like the opposite of what the Bible says and the Bible say we hear and we obey the Quran says we hear and we disobey it's likely that there's like an opinion that they didn't actually literally say this because if they did that Allah would have crushed them with the mountain but it's rather expressing the meaning of what they basically ended up doing another example is in uh so first of all there's something similar to that in Daniel says something like something like that again I'm going off memory so yeah now I I think I've also heard there's a different reading for the Ayah which is for Al it's even more similar to the Hebrew or Aramaic because I forgot where ex I think it's an aramic it because Daniel's in both languages I forgot which chapter this is but anyway so that's similar and then you know how iny says yeah there's a Psalm which says God yeah it says I'm forgetting the Hebrew but it's it's very similar it's like he something like that sorry where is this this is in Psalm 121 I should actually pull up the Hebrew because actually yeah demonstrate how the Quran is familiar with the Hebrew through text and usually in the you know settings like this normally what do you find like the Christians in the New Testament they they're familiar that the authors of the gospels even Paul if I'm not mistaken Abrahim quoting the Old Testament in the Greek from the septent right yeah yeah yeah I'm just going to quickly pray M and be back Mano if you want to take over please yeah uh yeah so can I put up uh screenshot is that possible yeah yeah I will maybe I'll do a screen share for the screenshot that's what I could do so this is from the same scholar that uh uh Chris was using in the debate he only quoted one scholar and this is literally from his commentary so on he says so Allah that's the Arabic he says in Daniel 627 the Persian king daras identifies the god of Israel as the Living God he endures forever here in the Quran describes God Allah as the living one the all sustainer so you see how that's similar and then he says as Bell notes the Quran uses turns of phrase common in the Psalms here in the expression neither drowsiness befalls him nor sleep the Quran follows Psalm 1214 using two Arabic terms cognate to two Hebrew terms in this verse you see he neither sleeps nor Slumbers loan the guardian of Israel uh The Mention Of God's seat or Throne is basically the Hebrew word for that is used for God's throne in a couple places but anyway the point here being is look at the Arabic the Hebrew says so it's it's following the Hebrew it's just the order is reversed and then also we mentioned being very similar to the aric so if this is the type of this is the book that um you were reading from yeah yeah Quran and the Bible no I don't recommend that book9 if you if those of you want to yeah because when I when I got this book I thought it would be quite interesting and then I was looking um like you know the Ayah says and they find him written in what is with them he doesn't actually comment anything on that so okay why is he deliberately not um making a footnote and a commentary on a very specific in fact if not the most important um Ayah to make commentary on if you're writing a commentary of the Quran according to the Bible that he doesn't do that yeah so if if people want to check out in textuality stuff I'd actually recommend my own channel I have a playlist on it now I'm I'm a bit more interested in prophecies so you see I don't post too much inter textuality stuff but it is there I don't recommend this work obviously because uh ASB mentioned before we go into like comparative religion and because this is an orientalist work so you're going to get stuff saying obviously that's going to contradict our tradition and like he's going to say kufur obviously because he doesn't believe the Quran is from Allah so it's more for like basically I don't recommend anyone going to orientalist works or even Christian Jewish stuff until they have a strong base in Islam and IM and knowledge base and and whatnot so if you want to get it from a Muslim perspective you can see my channel on that anyway let's continue with the the the highlights unless uh well Hashim had it I don't know if you have access to I I have got access to that so we can continue yeah you want to share any other examples when itre text yeah on the inter text yeah uh well for the Hebrew um doesn't have to be Hebrew how the Quran demonstrates in fact you know the classical example let's talk about it it's the crucifixion the crucifixion is a Cornerstone it's like the central dogma the Christians Jesus was crucified why would no one know about this I mean if this was also known around the Arabian Peninsula it should be known that he was crucified right this is the central tenant of their belief yeah and the fact that there's a Hadith saying that when Jesus kind to comes back he's going to destroy the cross it shows you the prophet knows this exactly Christians and the quranic narrative as it stands is obvious that quranic author Allah subh in this case of course knows the claim that's why the in the Quran says and they boast that we have killed the Messiah the Son of Mary and Allah says no no you haven't I mean you know you did not kill him you did not crucify him and and certainly uh they did not kill him so there is clear point that this crucifixion idea the rumor of crucifixion is clearly there Quran talks about there is a crucifixion taking place but it wasn't Christ people believed it was Christ but it wasn't the case so it's not that the Quran some um mistakenly affirms U not knowingly what it is the Quran knows and it engages with that pmic with the true history and saying No this wasn't the case the reality is you know they thought mistakenly in their mistaken perception he was crucified but he wasn't crucified Allah raised him up so many examples like this demonstrat you know the the bogus idea of Islamic dilemma I mean this is shows how you know you know they touching to this STW because they can't find an argument when the Quran clearly shows there is no such thing as a dilemma I think this might be the missionary mind dilemma I think we have to say a missionary understanding the where they can't read the Quran and understand the Quran you know you know just to add to what you have just said regarding the the crucifixion brother mansur you know there there was a sect called the B basilan according they were followers of basilides they they believe in the swap Theory you know the Hadith of when he said that it was made that Allah put the resemblance of is on one of his one of his disciples and then in another narration it says he was put the resemblance of isaam was put into the the one that betrayed him someone who betrayed him so they say it's Simon of because he's the one that was made to to pick up the uh um uh the cross yeah the crucifix so so at the end of the day these group that were made Heretics by Iranians and like he's the one that written extensively about Heretics so they were they believed that isaam was not crucified he's not God he's not the Son of God that he was a prophet so so the Quran actually from history we have got the nazarin ebionites although there is a difference but these basilians they actually agree with the Islamic narrative yeah so the point we're addressing is this this so So-Cal Christian mind mind dilemma Christian understanding dilemma um because there's no such thing as Islamic dilemma because it's total their Mis misunderstanding or confusion where the Quran of firms and you're saying the Quran yet contradicts their Central beliefs and contradicts the Christian history while the Quran doesn't contradict it Quran corrects it deliberately knowingly so that's the point so if you now want to understand the Quran the Quran affirms as much as it should affirm because of the true reality as the Quran is talking about and we believe in those things that's this what what it is so our belief is not belief in what they have text in in in their possession but rather the true depictions the Quran gives as well as the Quran talks about how this is how they are the Quran is guardian over it guardian over the previous scripture showing you where the corruption has taken place and if the Quran only glossed around it saying only muham and you would have thought like oh maybe it's just didn't know the Quran gives examples of example from the Juda Christian history where their historical narratives are corrected amended through to to its true nature and this is why that the so-call Dilemma is actually a total you know a failure in terms of how it should be as a as a dilemma and it's a misunderstanding of and confusion in their minds because if such a dilemma ever existed I think we need to call it the Christian dilemma or Christian mind dilemma whatever it might be because to call that an Islamic dilemma is really showing you how little you know about the Quran I mean you're appealing to the orientalist and you don't even know how they're interacting the text I mean another example I mean I'm not promoting this book but those who are interested when you go read this is the Quran in context one of the examples um a book edited by Angelica Angelica newor Nicholas haai and Michael Marx historical and literary investigations into the quranic mil lots of monographs and papers there and and when you read them you realize how the authors who are writing these monographs current orientalist they are coming to the grasp and understanding of you know how much the Quran actually indeed knows and affirms the the reality and corrects it engages with it and goes into a pical tone and it has its own rhetoric against those uh beliefs which Quran considers to be incorrect and unacceptable so it's not that Quran somehow affirms mistakenly and knowingly not knowing what the belief is Quran in indeed the author of the Quran knows their position very well enough to refute the historical inaccuracies that are script in in the Jud Christian teachings yeah yeah so this was referring to how they were pointing to the Muhammad wasallam was being taught by someone and the Quran says the individuals you are actually saying he he's not even an Arab and the Quran is pure Arabic so how can you attribute this to a non-arab who's not even familiar with the the nuances the language the Linguistics the the composition of the Quran refuting the idea it's an author who's helping Prophet mam is a non-arab it doesn't and that that actually shows you how desperate qur were to come up with a possible explanation for how the author of the Quran like how according to them Muhammad uh has come in the Quran because first of all note they're accusing a foreigner of teaching him the Quran what does that tell you that tells you they weren't familiar with this biblical material a Roman I mean if you go to the it will say to you a Roman like uh meaning from from romes like from the byzantines yeah yeah so look they have by the very fact that they're accusing a foreigner of teaching him it shows you the mckans didn't know the stuff secondly which refutes this whole oral stuff secondly how desperate do you have to be to say he learned the Quran from someone who doesn't even speak Arabic he speaks a different language that's like saying that's like if I said oh I learned Philosophy from uh a teacher who only speaks Chinese now I don't speak Chinese like how am I how am I going to learn and also like if they saying that he that the Foreigner taught him the exact wording of the Quran that doesn't make any sense as well cuz how is a foreigner going to come up with with like the Quran such an eloquent speech so it doesn't make any sense it just shows you how desperate they are to come up with the possible you know they came with even the weirdest one there was a there was a priest called bah and when the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam went with his uncle to uh to the Levant once in a caravan this bah met them and he knew the prophet he KN he knew that the prophet was the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam when he saw the Seal of the Prophet Hood in his shoulder and that's one one of the signs actually that is in their books and it disappeared that he has got a mark of prophethood and they saw him sitting and he saw him he didn't he didn't come with them to eat and uh Subhan Allah so what they said they said that bah the the later ones and some of the orientalists too they said that bah is the one that taught him everything so he's only so for one day how could he have told taught him all the Torah and inil and all of this and come with something new which is the Quran yeah and the S this this accusations that the Christians came up with that the Prophet Muhammad am he learned on travels to Sham yes that's the thing was one of them now first of all note that qu never make this accusation which is relevant Because the actual enemies of the Prophet who lived with him never said oh you learned it from your travels because they didn't think it was reasonable they come up with other explanations So you you're telling me you come up with the explanation that the original audience didn't so yes that's bad secondly you're not going to go you know especially in those days when you travel for like business or whatever you would go in like a pack so you don't get like hunted or whatever robbed and stuff yeah robbed yeah hunted was the wrong word but robbed and stuff so uh you're not going to go with your business pack to go do trade and then sneak off and take a couple Bible lessons and the pack is like where'd he go where'd he go oh I went to take some Bible lessons and then not only does he have to go to a rabbi to learn the like talmudic stuff which they say but he also then has to visit a priest and be like can you tell me what what the apocryphal stories are and what the New Testament is and quick you got to tell me quick because I got to be back by 5:00 pm otherwise they'll be like where' I go like it's a completely ridiculous stupid argument that someone would and and he and he has to tell him in Hebrew and in Co Greg and he has to memorize the whole thing in that one sitting because you got to go back to Arabia and five years later pretend to be a prophet like what is this and by the way according to the S the prophet only went to Sham twice anyway tce once with once when he was a young boy with his uncle and second time when he went for that was the only twice and he met B only once when he was a young boy exactly yeah and by the way the thing about the seal the Seal of Isaiah chapter 9 that it says a child is going to be born and the authority is on his shoulder so Authority the Seal of prophet Hood Subhan Allah you know Al Pharisee Salman Al Phar has a rid to because he he became a Christian for one for one time when he saw the prophet one of the signs of the prophethood of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam that he doesn't eat Sak if he ISAT Sak he would not eat it but if it is gifted he would eat it so what Salman Al fari did when he saw the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam and he heard that he a prophet he remembered what the priests he used to be with told him about the coming of a new Prophet the the so what he did and then he knew from the studies that he studied under the priests that this Prophet does not eat from Saka he will he will only eat from gifted things so he took some food to him to the prophet sallallah wasallam and the prophet Sall alaihi wasallam asked him what's this food he said this is Sak so the prophet Sall alaihi wasallam said no give it so he was passed on to the uh to the sahaba to the companions the following day he brought some food to him and he said this is gifted when he was asked he said this is a gift so the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam then ate from it it was on that point that Sal made sure that this is the prophet of Allah that he was that the signs as he was taught by the priests were exactly and then he became a Muslim Subhan Allah alhamdulillah yeah so um I mean I thought we're going to show more Clips but obviously we I think we can just like briefly comment on yeah so so you had Chris with this opening presentation and in that presentation this is what when I when I saw it it says okay that's the Quran the Quran confirms the previous scripture so if that's the case previous scripture includes I mean in the context of the debate obviously it refers to the Christian scripture but according to the Quran what are the previous scriptures the previous scriptures includes the ibim mus the Scrolls of ibraim and M Islam and actually Quran quite interestingly talks about the contents of it you like this how the Quran Allah says this is what was mentioned within it do we find these uh particular descriptions in in the current text or collection of texts which is called the Bible of course not so the quranic picture of what the previous scripture is totally misunderstood by the Christian uh Community for some reason I mean Ibrahim you need to shed some light on it why is it when the Quran is quite obvious even when tells you what is in there it tells you that Isa alisam said that someone would come after him his name would be Ahmed it tells you that this is what it is when the Quran gives you the contents of this you know why do they say that the Quran is actually referring to their scripture what it is in fact when the Quran actually lays it down what the Scripture it has in mind yeah I don't it just seems to me like that sometimes they play dumb and often they just use the the oh well it has to be our new testament because that's what that's what the audience would have understood or because it says it's written down and none of these are good arguments and Dean responded to them and I've explained them here so what was Chris's response to our explanations for the the objections they bring Chris's response was to pretend like deeden didn't actually refute him and just keep pretending like Dean was saying that thealist Matthew Mark Luke and John as I mentioned over and over again uh Chris was talking about how you know like the narratives of the Gospel when Dean literally said theil is not the narratives it's the sayings it's not the stories it's the sayings and uh it's the speeches and stuff like that and and we mentioned how Chris quoted Mark 111 which is like a title or like an introduction from the author whereas Dean told you the my position is the inil is the sayings of Jesus and the way it's written down or the speeches of Jesus that is the Revelation he's preaching and it's written down in a form but he just completely ignored that and he pretended like you know Dean was arguing it's Matthew Mark Luke and John yeah so I don't know I was quite disappointed in chis but I point yeah another point to highlight is this is I mentioned thean talks about the inj and the and the of ibraim and mam why doesn't it even once mentioned theel of Yanna angel of Marcos or whatever name them why doesn't the Quran mention these by name why why is the Quran deliberately not mentioning any of the writings of Paul even mention the name of Paul at all it seems like does not in any way talk about what they have in in in in their hands and yet it interacts with them but there is something even more to this you know the the the the variance in time o of authorship like uh uh 70 70s Common Era was was Mark Then followed by Matthew Then followed by Luke like around 85 like this then 90 100 110 then it was John so but the inil as I said earlier on was revealed all at once all at once on on plus the knowledge of the Torah that Allah would have revealed to him also or educated him on on it so it couldn't there is no way as per the Islamic narrative that Yanna that y or bolos or or MAA would have been their inals yeah and and another case in point if there are more than excuse me more than one in jail writings available because clearly the inel of John or attributed to him is not the same as Mark or Luke and so on so why doesn't the Quran uses the plural word Anil yes why doesn't it so this shows like how you know on a surface level understanding the Christian Community has on the quranic concept of injil the injil is as the Quran says what Allah taught Christ as the AY started and he will teach him the inil the so uh brother AJ just want to bring you in on this I mean from your understanding of uh the interaction that you are having um you know as yat why do you think the Christian pists are having this confusion to understand what the injil is for example I mean that's precisely the problem where they're creating this dilemma when it's based on the whole dilemma is based on a misunderstanding of the Islamic position I think it's actually they realize what they're doing and they're just being disingenuous on the on the top PST part for example God logic and Chris these people they realize the mistake they're making but they want to save face for the audience they appeal to the audience a lot of times cuz if you look at the chat like uh when they're live and stuff even if the Christian is getting destroyed like Chris did you'll still see crosses being spammed or Deans losing Deans losing all this stuff so they just want to maintain that rhetoric in order to um create a false sort of facade that they're they're winning uh on the Christian side they not they not the truth yes theatri so again this is about the theatrical performance to save the face I mean I remember I mean just just remembered something same individual Chris when um Avery came to speaker corner at one point and there was few others from from outside the Atlantic and they were reacting really really badly of course and I made a video just highlighting few points and of course with my exchange and Chris had to come along and save uh the day as if like he had to respond to what I said uh not realizing that you know his friends you know those who have uh using their sound mind and intellect in a calm and Collective way would realize that you know the position of islamism misunderstood by their pist and this is where things go wrong so he want to save them and because I was showing in terms of how you know the Mis misconduct and behavior was like that at the end he was Shing like Muslims are violent and he could put me as an example how violent I am showing I'm pushing whatever you want to call it attacking uh a person and it was like a one sec clip there is no pre- context and there's no postc context mean there's no nothing context wise and now he's done it to his audience when people would see it they would see like look how violent Muslim is how hypocritical he is you know accusing and questioning the the Christian pist and and missionaries in terms of their behavior how they are actually maybe violent and so on and look how mansur himself is like this what a pathetic way of doing this and this shows like you know you know we are absolutely right in boycotting these individuals where we have no sincerity and integrity that particular clip that he put on the only one of course he found out of all these 24 years or more in speaker corner or even less when it comes to the availability in in uh the footages in in camera or in in in VHS tapes and so on he took a clip from a debate a discussion I had with an atheist who doesn't consider himself uh convinced that he exists and he asked me how do I exist or not so in that context I demonstrated that he does exist and I pushed him and says if you didn't exist you would not have moved now no atheist out of all of this uh you know hundreds and thousands of comments on that particular shorts or video that's online ever mentioned like this is a violent behavior and act everyone answer it but for some reason for some reason out of I think if I'm not mistaken uh Hashim it's it's gone away like more than 30 40 50 million views of that short clip I don't think over thousands of CLI you know comments that I have scanned through I have seen ever that someone said this is a violent action and behavior because this is a demonstration you know in the in in the exchange of discussion about someone saying can you prove it to me that I exist or not and I just demonstrated by pushing him um it wasn't a behavior of any kind of violence but why would that individual Chris you know your interlocutor that you discussing in this debate um put that clip to show to people that this is violent behavior that really shows how low they can go low in terms of you know clearly something that is taken out of context deliberately he knows the context so does thousands and millions of people but yet he wants to portray to his viewers his fun boys and girls that you know this is an example of a violent activity now that is showing someone has no Integrity no Integrity would you put that clip to demonst someone was if someone did that for example um none of you would because you know that wasn't the intent or the purpose at all but if someone Stoops that low that really shows you these people I mean when I say these people the type of uh these peses here are obviously not to be taken seriously at all not only because of their particular uh lack of Integrity but also because of the lack of knowledge and comprehension on the matter as well as that they are only there not for the sake of truth but for the sake of you know um I don't perhaps uh economic gain and finance could be something like that you know that could be the case so um AJ I want to just um bring you back again once again to continue on this what are the key points um that you found that Chris didn't respond to an answer and please talk about this and I'll come back after show the entire presentation I was going to say I was trying to think right now it's like the entire thing pretty much that Dean even in the even in the cross-examination he didn't in fact in the cross examination I remember the first question he was like oh well your question is too vague I can't answer it wasn't Vega was pretty easy to answer like come on man there there's so many things um what else did he say when he didn't answer it he went oh because it's vague actually towards the end he didn't answer when uh Dean should take some and dra picture for him just in case he understand when Dean said to him he didn't answer he said oh because it's vague what did he ask again what did De ask again Ibrahim do you remember he asked do you think the author the Quran is trying his best to present a consistent narrative to the people he's trying to convert right and like that's vague how is that vague Prett clear any let's continue with the highlights take your crayons next next time draw a picture for him right you know whenever he can't answer something he just says fallacy what is it's not even a correct application of the FY doesn't even know what circular arguments are like yeah it's funny I want to show you guys uh one discussion I had with uh Chris at the park it's a short clip so it's not that long on anyone other than himself for his existence is the depend on anyone other than himself for his existence the son is eternally begotten from the father so he depends on the father do you agree that for all time does he depend on the father for his existence yes so he's not a that's not how the same so I just want you to note the definition of a here it says the quality or state of being self-derived or self originated or basically didn't have any agent for his existence means he's Eternal that's what uh ATI means here let's see if you understood that or basically there's another definition it Sayes the absolute self-sufficiency Independence and autonomous of God is Catholic or so he says God is not dependent on anyone other than the godhead he's godhead dep what is the definition of I didn't ask of your trity I as you no no I asked definition of the term you want to deal with philosophy I'm dealing with philosophy now is fully independent he's not depend on anything yes God when you say God is not dependent yes is the son fully God is fully God so is it dependent on anyone for his existence the father Son and Holy Spirit are gods did you hear that the father Son and Holy Spirit are Gods plural yeah there is no [Laughter] you know he probably thinks he won that exchange I'm pretty sure not only the fact that he admitted is a polies you know just a bit less than the Hindus uh but you know in the subconscious mind that's what they have to imagine when you say God is three persons it's inevitable because I I asked them many times you know like uh when you when you go to heaven or paradise whatever you call it um will you see one God or three persons they find that question very difficult because they have to get their heads around because if they say one God then they'll ask we we'll probably ask them okay how do you identify the father Son and Holy Spirit oh they all one essence you know they they don't have a rational answer to that so they will some of them actually say yes I'll see three persons but you said they all one you know like it's it's a conundrum they have to face uh in dun and in AK you know so it's crazy right shall we bring up the folks for the Q&A now or you guys got something else actually I think let's finish the highlights but let's do it like uh with just brief comments and then hold on I thought you said the highlights were finished oh no there there's a bunch left but it'll be fine because uh I think it's pretty self-explanatory all right let me get the link again you send it on the private chat right yeah there it is right so for those people who are wondering where is uh Brother Dean he's most likely sleeping at the other end of the world so that's why he couldn't join us today but uh inshah we'll bring him on some other time right so what minute did we cross was it minute four or something I yeah let me see let me see um minutes [Music] yeah so minute 4 [Music] 10 410 yeah it's 4:15 actually 4:15 okay right let me just share the screen quickly so yeah this is relevant because now we established many times the author of the Quran knows the Bible well so then how is it possible that he made a mistake and thought that the gospels didn't teach that Jesus dies so this is why this is the Quran contradicts the Torah and the injil the Quran over and over again contains verses that are just not compatible with the prior scriptures for example you have the classic Surah Ana ay 157 that seems to imply that Jesus didn't die on a cross which is a claim made in Matthew Mark Luke and John you quote Gabriel Reynolds now uh he has a whole commentary oh sorry I thought you were speaking like called the Quran and the Bible and I've read a lot of it and the whole point is he's going basically Ayah by aah in the Quran and he's trying to connect as almost every Ayah of the Quran to Something in the Bible or something in Rabin literature and and whatnot and he's basically showing how the Quran is sometimes agreeing with something that's in these previous texts or it's correcting it he even goes so far as to saying there are times where the quranic uh phrasing is influenced by the Hebrew of the Bible and it's it's responding to the actual Hebrew making a pun on the Hebrew so if if the author of the Quran has such extensive knowledge of the Bible that it not only knows the Bible but rare Traditions like the tud wasn't popular uh at that point it was popular in Babylonia but not here and it even is responding to the Hebrew but according to you at the same time he doesn't even know that the gospels say that Jesus died how do you square that up how can you so this is basically your argument yeah about the Hebrew can you explain that can you on that I already explained when mans was here but my point being that the Quran even sometimes interacts with the Hebrew so how is it because if you look at the beginning of his argument his opening statement he said the Quran you know uh uh said that Jesus didn't die which contradicts the gospel that's the whole Islamic dilemma that the author didn't actually know what's in the in the Bible okay so I bring this question to him how can he even know the Hebrew but he doesn't even know that the basic thing that the gospel see Jesus died and look what he's going to say look at his response right let's have a look at that that's a really good question so it is true right that the Quran has a lot of knowledge on the Torah and also tal mod and other things as well and also the inil in what it considers to be the inil it assumes the reader has knowledge of these things but at the same time it contradicts right so um so what I would say is I don't actually I'm not convinced that 4157 understood in the traditional Muslim way is correct that would be my response ultimately I think it's more refuting the Jews in their understanding of what they have done by having the Messiah killed I think it's basically saying no it wasn't you that did this because only Allah is the one who allows these things to happen so uh that would be my understanding of that seriously now you've heard it first yeah you've heard it wise first yeah play it cuz look he's the exact opposite in the beginning yeah play it you have the classic Surah Ana ay7 that seems to imply that Jesus didn't die on a cross yeah that is the exact opposite so he's just changing his position to uh you know whenever it's convenient for yeah he's very good at back peddling isn't he I don't know if he realizes that to be honest you know now in hindsight I don't think you realize that yeah he tried to come up with a COPE in the debate he was like oh I was saying it from your perspective but that's not what he said and the whole debate he was no you're saying it's from the Jewish perspective yeah perspective the Jews are not the ones who actually killed him because Allah does everything isn't it you know I didn't know that Chris was aani but I guess they got to him I'm sure the kadan will pay him tons of money if he actually changes oh look Dean responds the to oh yeah look Dean is in the chat hash is he yeah I G him the link he's just casually dropping aamayum as if really him is it someone else oh that is him okay de come on board man we are waiting for you maybe just woke up let him just freshen up inshallah he'll be here well you know the good thing since I did HJ is I I can I don't even have to do any makeup before I come on I can just come on cuz the hair are so short I don't even have to brush them they're always in position yeah all right I think he's got some miscommunication he thought we were starting at uh 6: p.m or something but anyway I still one let's continue the highlights okay then jump on boat man if you're listening we are just doing the highlight lights we've done well nearly all of it isn't it just a few more minutes left yeah we'll try not to comment too much because we don't want this to go on for 12 hours all right what I would say is I don't actually I'm not convinced that 4157 understood in the traditional Muslim way is correct for example Dr Gabriel Reynolds makes his point to use Gabriel Reynolds terms and Dr Gabriel Reynolds and others have made this point as well people like Gabriel Reynolds is Gab re a scholar you someone you your videos correct one minut does you believe the author of the Quran edits material that he hears from the Jews and Christians oh I've I've I've seen this one this is amazing you guys go to watch this I think he's very carefully diplomatic about that my understanding expand look look at I's reaction in the bottom left corner shaking his head he doesn't explicitly say I think he tries to he be very uh critical but not um uh making his opinions known he tries to stick purely to scholarship well Gabriel rold says in his book the Quran and the Bible page three uh the Quran has not simply borrowed material from Jews or Christians this is just page three of his work the Quran has not simply borrowed material from Jews or Christians instead it has consciously reshaped biblical material to advance its own religious claims are you sure you're not quoting someone who gives a for word he hasn't read the book has he neither the forward nor the book it doesn't even have a forward it's actually very Comm I wonder if you read the [Laughter] title this this is Gabriel say Reynolds book page three the Quran and the Bible on his commentary of the Quran okay well maybe just then maybe I mistak him uh the one scholar that you heard him quote um Reynolds uh from page three of his book it contradicts him so like he's not doing Thor research look at his reaction he's like so what exactly whatever dude bro I'm I'm supposed to actually read the scholars up stud like what are you talking about but but to be to be fair he did admit that he could be mistaken but not so much admitting that I didn't actually read the book The thing is if you read any articles by Gabriel ridd this should be obvious that he believes that the Quran like quotequote islamicized biblical stories now obviously because he's a CF he thinks that you know the Quran is editing the Bible we would say Allah is restoring the original understanding but the point is the same that the author of the Quran reshapes biblical or restores the the correct meaning and the correct knowledge which shows that he believes the Bible is not fully authentic uh you know what I think hasham we got to upload that as like a a short yeah like the three God waiting for this review to finish but uh drum roll Deen joins the panel-discussion Brother Dean is here yesam alikum Dean where's your mask we were expecting only three hours late don't worry yeah sorry my bad I thought yeah I thought we were going to do at six so yeah no miscommunication said 2 a. remember yes sry don't worry don't worry it's okay it's all good Mah brother Ibrahim was able to handle most of it we are just relaxing you know like my shik IB ham masah by the way have you been introduced to shb Hassam he's uh he's oh no yeah I've seen I've seen some yeah I've seen some of you guys's content with him and like like other brothers the takes regular at speakers cont alhamdulillah and we learn a lot from him alhamdulillah so yeah then um um I don't know it's it's uh we we were just doing the highlights that uh Ibrahim has uh you know created on his and his posted on his website sorry on his channel so maybe I don't know now that you're here uh perhaps you could give us your take on the on the whole debate uh doesn't matter if you repeat what we said uh we want to see your take on it inshallah so yeah please do share yeah I think I think overall was good alhamdulillah um uh yeah for the most part like Chris was like coping especially during the questioning uh time during the questioning time he he backpedal a lot he kept switching between positions and yeah at certain points he even conceded the entire debate like you could tell that right um he didn't have a consistent approach and you you'd see this like throughout the debate he would shift between making one claim under one position then later on when he when he's pressed on that he would then shift to an entirely different position and just make it seem like oh well um that wasn't my view I was just doing like an internal critique or I was saying it from your your perspective right but we all knew that he was uh trying to say his own view so when someone does that during a debate you know that like they're not entire entirely confident um and like not only just confident they are they're ignorant it shows their ignorance and as you try to you know damage control while your on live screen you know you can't hide it you it it's it appears quite clear to the viewers and they know exactly what's happening they're not dumb uh so I think yeah people like that if um they make a mistake they should be sincere and be truthful saying that yes they made a mistake uh like it did with uh Gabriel rynolds not even third page they should just be you know you you look uh at least you look you you have some Integrity then left yeah because if you're just going to Waffle your way around and think that people will not notice these things and especially on a live stream it's it's very unlikely uh you'll get away with it yeah I don't know if you guys checked his uh yes s go yeah no no that's fine I mean go ahead what is it you wanted to say yeah you know I was just gonna say that I don't know if you guys saw his like um his uh his video that he uploaded on his channel he tried to cope and say that like tried to claim that we were cheating like I was somehow like looking down on my phone I was I was looking down not you I think he was he was blaming Ibrahim for foring you no no me me as well oh you I mean yeah he's he's trying to say that well he he said at one point that well he was looking down a lot of the time then um he proceeded to even say that he contradicted himself really like on the narrative that he was trying to say because he was like oh but you were looking down most of the time probably texting Ibrahim but then he just said like 10 minutes later in his video well I was looking down as well and writing so I was like okay I mean it's crazy and um the title of that that video you produce was like uh you remember the title yeah delusional is yes delusional so I was just telling the audience we actually corrected his title as you can see here uh way yeah I mean what do you expect that's the real title he missed that that's that's good and yeah I mean like the absolutely delusional because uh to Pat yourself on the back after such a poor performance is just it's it's either you you lost all Integrity sincerity Li they was just licking his wound he was licking his wounds should have done it quietly should have done itly you've squeezed you've squeezed him you've squeezed him until he screamed so yeah alul you should have responded by saying that was just a start yeah I mean I I don't think you need to debate then with these um lower level pists who have no knowledge on the subject matter or even how to you know present uh or represent the Islamic teaching accurately so you better better off and I think this is what we want to start doing inshah with yat like yourself to to get you to go and engage with people who have some knowledge on the matter on on on their own uh religious beliefs and ideologies as well as you know have some understanding even though you know not be as um as yours about Islam because otherwise why should they be engaging in the first place so you know choose your opponents or interlocutors wisely there's no point um engaging with someone who is not sincere from from the interaction that you may have seen already or even has the knowledge or the Integrity so yourself and other brothers within your team who are working know quite passionately on this subject matter you know try to minimize your interactions in very childish platforms where you know it's all about name Callins mockery ridicules and things like this you need to step up and see look if you're doing this to establish the truth of Islam and that needs to be done with a very very approach which I would say look you know Wise and acceptable rather than in a very rhetorical we don't need rhetorics uh Dean and AJ I'm sure you very well know that rhetorics has some effect you can present yourself but you don't need to have a rhetorical statement uh to save your face because you have the truth with you so if you are going to engage with someone try to be as you know in in your approach presentation to with your interlocutor as academic as they say as possible in terms of minimizing any uh ridicule or mockery or any kind of insinuation which might Point towards that but present your stuff your material that is which itself will speak volumes and establish the case for you so I'm I'm sure as you come out of these toxic environments you may be immersed in all this time um and you come with a mainstream academic type position inshah try yourself like if you were to think on this uh way if you're going to go in a university setting debating a professor how would you want to present your case and respond to the professor how would you disagree with someone who uh you know has presented their case for example you have to think in that way so the level of the academic engagement is that you know you treating them as someone who's knowledgeable someone who has uh the Integrity but if someone don't or doesn't have knowledge and integrity you can show this through your work and reputations of it but you still have to show this this uh respect um that is due as an interlocutor no insults and so on and so forth so I hope few of these points inshah you will take on board uh and carry on doing the good works and the good job that you're doing and especially what what we like and um what we appreciate is when you Brothers like yourself are studying um the concepts through a philosophical angle and lens and knowing their jargon because what has happened as you and we have noticed Christian pesis instead of well not instead while knowing that they can't defend the the Bible in in the way it is if you were discussing textually they go you know another tangent in philosophical so they will become themselves like Divine simplic um believing in things you know Hy morphism this that and come up with jargons which they think you wouldn't know and if you didn't know that of course how can you engage with them so yourself and others were coming up with the understanding of that kind of philosophical basis totally will undermine the efforts and the so-call you know upper hand approach and then realized that the game they were playing is coming to an end and in fact it has already ended with you coming to your formal first debate alhamdulillah appr yeah 100% take take that into account I I think that um yeah he was just like sort of trying to match match his his energy type of thing him as well as like the other type of people people uh like himself but yeah 100% like um try to be as academic as possible and uh yeah yeah it would be kind of souping down to the level type of thing if one of the things I learned I'm not sure from where um it's become quite widespread now in our in our field where if a dog bites you would you bite the dog no of course not of course not so if we think from from this point I mean of course people will come and attack you or your position or your person or your integrity um you don't need to reciprocate uh in this manner you can actually show the upper level the upper hand uh when it comes to morality when it comes to conduct and and behavior inshallah and and that will settle uh the issue rather than the theatrics that people expect that's what happening isn't it people want some kind of uh overpowering and um theatrical modes and behavior this pure comedy um maybe the Young Generation is up for it and they like it and appreciate it but that is not going to help anyone when it comes to the Salvation when it comes to the the the real saving themselves from the Hellfire so you in your discussions and approaches you need to bring this to play look you're doing this to save people not from boredom but saving people from the Hellfire by establishing and demonstrating what truth is so the younger generation needs to wake up from from their some kind of you know Strange World on a bubble they live in where it's all about entertainment this is no longer entertainment even though entertainment features may be demonstrated because of people's poor performance and you know the ignorance in subject matter but what you're dealing with is where it comes to truth salvation and saving yourself from the Hellfire establishing the truth the this is the aims and objective which needs to be uppermost and know spelled out from the very beginning reminded at the end so that they know that the reason why you have come down and you become uh settled in this approach where you're showing this is the growth and this is the wisdom approach in which everyone needs to appreciate so you know be wiser and don't fall into the Trap where people want to bring them bring you or your fellow young datat down to their level because we're not interested in this mundane pmics we are interested in establishing the truth it may hurt them but you don't need to tone down and saying look I I I I'm not going to tell you what the Quran says this is what the Quran says this is what Islamic teaching is so if the teaching is this and you don't like it I'm afraid that's the reality so there is no sugar coating there is no whitewashing or I don't know what's the other word he use for it it's going to be plain and simple and the matter is if you are going to engage with us you have to show some sincerity and love for the truth if you find your your opponents or your interlocutors that you're discussing who doesn't give any concern about truth and all about winning a debate then they might as well you know debate uh The Comedians and other people where it's all about entertainment and you know who can you know be more louder and more theatrics and Theatrical and so on but when it comes to truth you need to choose your opponents or interlocutors or people you're engaging with wisely so that the discussion benefits both parties inshallah yeah brother uh should we put up the questions or you got some more highlights to I think we covered up to six is there more you're muted ibim I was gonna say I think the Matthew 23 highlight is good because it shows his uh double standards and it's like he just doesn't understand it right anyway we'll play it and then we'll discuss did he even respond to that Matthew 23 well he did he didn't well all he said is well it's let's let's watch it so the main Assumption of T here is does the Quran really affirm all of the Bible at its time well the answer is no the bird and the people is Onis to show an absolute confirmation with no exceptions at all to this Rule and in today I'm going to be going through and destroying that claim of um absolute confirmation so this is my position uh the Quran generally affirms the truths contained with the scriptures at its time it's going to be a general affirmation of these categories I've just listed and the general affirmation will be restricted to whatever is confirmed by the Quran and Sunnah anything contradicting it we are to discard and anything in between we are to remain agnostic we neither to affirm or deny here's an example from Matthew 23 right you have Jesus commanding the Pharisees the teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in moses' seat so you must be careful to do everything they tell you right but the phares they taught the oral law right so if this is not just a general command this is an absolute command and we go like the sort of uncharitable reading of texts this is going to be a contradiction because we see times where Jesus peace be upon him in the gospels he actually condemns the Pharisees for certain oral practices right he doesn't believe in everything that they teach the Pharisees also teach that Jesus peace be upon him isn't the Messiah is he saying to take those teachings from the Pharisees is he is he saying uh for for his disciples and for his followers to go ahead and believe absolutely everything of course not as as I just made mention uh this is a restricted Obe this is an absolute so let's be consistent now and be charitable just as I'm being charitable with the text here be charitable with the Quran when it makes General stipulations and general commands did Jesus uh believe in all of the or law that the Pharisees would right so you comment on that first yeah uh no just continue and then we'll do it at the end cuz he's now going to cross him on the same point okay teing I'm going to say no uh do you believe in Matthew 23 Jesus is commanding the disciples to obey absolutely everything that the Pharisees teach is it absolutely everything yeah all I'm ask okay he's not right so you believe this is a general statement where Jesus is saying to obey the Pharisees where there's exceptions and it's not an absolute thing right why don't you have that level of look at I debate over that's it he doesn't even know what's going on that's what I'm telling you the guy doesn't know what he's saying even let alone what's going on he he's too busy relaxing and stretching I'm just going to rewind a bit more to see that again all right Galatians a general commence did Jesus uh believe in all of the oral law that the Pharisees were teaching I'm going to say no uh do you believe in Matthew 23 Jesus is commanding the disciples to obey absolutely everything that the Pharisees teach is it absolutely everything yeah I'm asking okay he's not right so you believe this is a general statement where Jesus is saying to obey the Pharisees where there's exceptions and it's not an absolute thing right mhm why don't you have that level of uh charitability when you read the Quran that was excellent bro just keep that before you comment before you comment look at the presentation of this Islamic dilemma um demonstrating how they don't even have an understanding uh what they're talking about as you said so the Quran affirms the Torah and the injil the gospel a true Revelation sent by Allah that's his like his one of his promis premise that same Torah and inil in the presence of Muhammad are confirmed by the Quran and the third one that he is bringing this to make this D the Quran contradicts the Torah and the injil no the Quran does not contradict the Torah and the injil the Quran is always affirming the Torah and the injil as he's presenting it so what he's done here which underneath this word Torah he mean the Old Testament or part of the five books of M Alam as it stands in the in in their Bible and the inil which he refers to the five four gospels rather Matthew Mark Luke and John in the New Testament yeah the Quran can contradict that but the Quran doesn't contradict the Torah and injil so if you now go back the premise one tah and the injil is not the same Torah and injil referred to in premise 3 this is where the you know how he's playing the you know like the example um I'm sure Dean you've come across they say Jesus is God the father is God right the son is God but when when when you question them what do you mean by God they actually mean Jesus is divine because they're not it's not God of identity U but is of predication right so so so this is exactly what they're trying trying to somehow in people's mind think like the Quran contradicts the Torah he should have read the Quran written the Quran contradicts the five books of Moses and the Quran contradicts the you four gospels in the New Testament then you'll realize there's just no such dilemma because there is no affirmation and contradiction at the same time because two different things there's a category I what do you call it it's it's like a two different categories yeah yeah C he's he's equivocating on the word that's right and he's doing it purposefully right and another point is is that um I mean doesn't it not seem that he's saying that the Quran is the same Torah inil that were at the presence of M Anda isn't he trying to present that's the one that was in the presence of the Prophet Sall alaihi wasallam but then later on when I question him on this he's saying that that's not his claim he says that well no no I never made the claim that the quran's absolutely confirming which I think most proponents of this argument say that it is absolutely confirming including the Corruptions and that's why it's such a problem so yeah and he also when he makes the point about where does it say Universal corruption stuff like that then he's like uh never and stuff like where the manuscripts when he's asking these kinds of stupid questions that those sorts of questions assume that he's saying the Quran says it's fully preserved in fact he even I I recall him even saying sometimes that the Quran says the Torah and gospel is preserved yet in other times he's saying I'm not saying that 100% of the exactly yeah so you can't decide if it's absolute confirmation or only parts off it to confirm but I mean even if he's saying even if he's saying it's not an absolute U uh confirmation well I'd say almost everyone besides him that uses this argument makes that claim of absolute Pro pres preservation so it's like okay like you're just shifting you're Shifting the whole entire position right and he was complaining in his debate review that Odin in your opening statement why did you say stuff related to what other people say about this argument why didn't you just respond to my arguments that I just made five seconds ago and this guy doesn't even understand how debates and then and then he contradicted himself after the other five minutes like he was his own enemy during the debate it seems like it's is crazy like someone could make a compilation of like Chris Refuge Chris yes exactly yes what I was saying and that's why I I asked Ibraham earlier I don't know whose side he was on was the Christian side or the Muslim side because every time whatever you know he builds something he destroys it within five minutes yeah so to take home message for Chris from this is okay Chris you know get a different job because uh clearly the job you're doing is is is not you not you're not doing very well in fact you've actually self-destructed Yourself by coming and debating with a young Muslim uh who has not formally debated and you've been there in speaker corner you know begging everyone to debate and debating anyone and everyone right but anyway you had a lot of experience there in in public uh debating uh so to speak so since now you realize Muslim young duat um they don't have a DA script that you think like they're following a script because you clearly didn't see his script so you think you need to really retire from you know this is a a very sincere advice because it's not going well for you and tell your colleagues that the Muslims have awaken the Young datat The Young Muslims are coming out with materials which they are not able to deal with they being professional experienced Debaters so you need to now concentrate on perhaps you know what for get the experienced Muslim debaters and so on you know if you really really want to learn I suggest you engage with a young Muslim debators and learn from them and that will help you perhaps from engagement with them you might see the light the light of Salvation absolutely yeah so did we talk about um so sorry hash but did did we talk about how he never addressed like my argument from silence and how he didn't even know how talk about it yeah so um it was very clear that he didn't know like when an argument from Silence is actually not fous which is like a very simple thing people should know like when they're debating it's it's not fous when when you would expect it to be evident right and he didn't even know that like I had to actually correct him during the debate um and he I I don't think he understood the argument to be honest he just he just regurgitate like I like how a lot of these guys do like level one Debaters they just say well it's an argument from Silence it's fallacious without understanding under what conditions it's not and obviously if you expect it to be evidence then it's not faci and I made it clear that you if this was such an apparent dilemma um why are like does he just think that every first generation Muslim that were knowledgeable Jews and knowledgeable Christians and the CR um criticisms from the Christians of Nan and other areas and the Jews in Medina like they were trying to grab onto anything any inconsistency that that they would think is in the Quran to try and critique it but they being such an apparent dilemma like it's just not intuitive you would expect it to be evidence and he never really addresses this yeah and you brought up the you brought up that that there's a Hadith about Christians asking about sister of Haron but there's another example with the Ayah that says they took their rabbis and monks as Lords besides Allah we have a Hadith narration they're asking the prophet about this Ayah because they say well they didn't do that and then the prophet explains how they did it so the point and not only that but if you yeah that was actually he was a Muslim yeah but it shows you it shows you that these sorts of objections came up and if you read the Quran a lot of the Quran is Allah responding to their arguments the arguments the make so Allah says what is it saying that they don't bring any argument to you or example to you but we uh give you the best explanation so the point is if you read the Quran over and over again we get the arguments of the kuf the arguments of the kufar the arguments of the Jews the arguments of the Christian all this stuff and yet no one brought up in the first century the mediate audience anyone no one brought up this Islamic dilemma until David W well I think people before David would you're using it but the point being no one brought it up in the first century the ear the earliest I could trace it I was going to use the point of well you don't see it until x amount of years but I couldn't really Trace trace it back it does actually date back to the time of Islam yeah yeah I T addresses it they're just copying their older Christians right should we carry on contradicts the Torah and the inil is a claim that actually the Hebrew people are not the children of Allah Sur Al 18 for example as many other verses indicate as well but of course the Torah is full of verses Deuteronomy 141 as an example where the people the Hebrew people are described as being a children of God I can accept that during to the prophet no just play it sorry you saying something no just play during Jesus time and during the time Old Testament people were allowed to tile themselves as sons of God makes mentions of this makes mentions of this this is a possible title used back then with a proper meaning this this was allowed in a metaphorical sense not in a literal sense in Deuteronomy chapter 32:5 it even makes mention the house of Israel are not titled as sons of God when they sin when and they lose that title right so this is in direct parallel with the quranic verse that you had in mind in M verse 18 yeah I mean if you think about it Chris brought two contradictions between the Quran and the Bible that his whole thing is the Quran contradicts the Bible he brought two two in his opening statement he brought that the Quran says Jesus wasn't killed which he later backtracked and took the kadani opinion and said it's not really about Jesus being crucified or whatever their opinion is uh uh and then the other uh contradiction he brought is this one with the children of God which the Bible itself uh says they're not his children when they send so that's not even necessarily A contradic so if you're going to bring a contradiction you know it should be something uh more legit now his claim is like even if you say generally it's preserved it still doesn't matter because the Quran is so contradictory to the Bible uh or we should say specifically the pentiuk and what Jesus says in the gospels and I or like the speeches he gives in the go I would completely reject that uh I don't like how can you even say that because the most of the pentiuk is not even addressed by the Quran like let's just say every single story that's in the pentti and every single thing that's in the pentat which is also in the Quran let's say they all contradicted okay even then you wouldn't be able to to claim that the uh the Quran disagrees with the majority of the Torah because the majority of the Torah is not addressed by the Quran stuff like just laws God saying to Moses you know this is what you do in this situation and this sacrifice and this sa this and this and that and that and that and that as the Quran doesn't really address it know for the most part so it's just a ridiculous claim to even say the Quran contradicts the majority of the penud and by the way even Tamia mentions that the the corruption is more in the narratives than it is in the Judgment that's his opinion uh that the rulings of the Torah are more preserved even though they have some corruption but they're more preserved than the narratives and again the majority of the laws of the Torah aren't even addressed there are some that are addressed the majority aren't even so it's a so you can't even claim that the major that Dean's position that major like at least 51% is preserved you can never disprove that because you know actually you could when you say the narratives you mean like the stories of the prophets yeah the stories stories and stuff like that like the story of Joseph and this and and actually as uh something you can actually make a better case for Hebrew prophets uh contradicting the majority of the Torah even though it still I don't think would be the majority but Jeremiah chapter 7 Jeremiah says that God never commanded Israel to do sacrifices in the wilderness and I believe it's Amos chapter 5 says implies the same thing that did you bring sacrifices to me in the wilderness now if you read the pentat for example Leviticus it's just chapter after chapter how to do sacrifices in the wilderness and Moses doing a sacrifice and Aaron doing a sacrifice and stuff like that so there are whole sections of the pentti which their own Hebrew Prophet Prophets The Books attributed to those prophets prophets are rejecting and yet you want to come with the Islamic dilemma what was that um bit about uh iben Tamia mentioning the metaphoric children of God uh can you elaborate on that Dean yeah so he mentioned this in I think on on possibly explaining like a Reconciliation on uh the verse of of baptizing in the name of the father son Holy Spirit he's making the point that like this this doesn't necessarily mean that What's Happening Here is uh is one of deification of of these three entities it's rather it can all be reconciled right will be um then he relates like The Holy Spirits just being Angel and Allah being called the father in a metaphorical sense same thing as says um under one view you can say that Allah being titled father and the son being mentioned as well you can take this in a metaphorical sense in the sense that um in a way that a son uh is a term of endearment and the same way that a father is a term used for someone that like car takes and sustains and so on using this sort of usage back then in the Old Testament is 100% like reconcilable or even in the New Testament it's 100% reconcilable And it's like obvious from the text that that this was the intended meaning and under this read also would just be that whenever Allah does condemn the usages of these terms as I mentioned the verse in Deuteronomy uh it's in the case where Allah is mentioning how if the humans they sin so and they're being punished for their sins so how do you then still title yourself as the sons of Allah in this metaphorical sense but the other other times in the Quran when it's not used in that term and condemning the usage of the term metaphorically it's always in a sort of ontological son it's always a literal begotten this right that's been condemned which is uh what they're what they were claiming regarding um isaam as well as or even the begot this of of daughters literal daughters as like the pagans in in Arabia were saying so yeah that's that under this view this would be like the more so um of the condemning and this is this is the main point the main point is that um he's presupposing uh a lens of a nian trinitarian u interpretation of uh the Bible uh while we're under no obligation to take that we can take like interpretations that can reconcile the Islamic view um and if you if you have that in mind then there's not there's not much from the Bible that would actually necessarily give you a p and not P an actual contradiction between the two theologies being presented a love is actually uh possibly reconcilable yeah actually even Tamia mentions in another place that the majority of the differences between the Muslims and are because twist the interpretation not because of the text he does say there is text there are some differences because of they corrupted the text but the majority of it is because of interpretation and in my experience this is true like how Christians always twist clear passages where Jesus is saying I'm not God and trying to interpret it in like weird ways to you know uh with gymnastics yeah exactly so these guys are like presupposing that the Quran contradicts every page of the Bible which is not necessarily true a lot of it can be reconciled anyway right plus that that would only apply to the Torah because it's not we don't even have to say the majority of the inil is preserved because as Dean mentioned in the debate the Quran doesn't talk a lot about about the inel anyway it talks more about the Torah so was it normal during the time of uh isaam for the for for the Israelites to refer to God as ABA as father it's not AB from what I've read uh it's AB like even in Arabic it's not because father is AB but ab and one of the one of the the stories that are out there that actually AB what's the difference between ab and ab well AB it's one of the names of of God according to the aramic seric one you know the seric language is the it's the second Aramaic there was an aramic before that but uh but AB that's why the Arabs they say in the name bis they don't say so who are these are these the Christians who say this yes yes Christians like the Coptic for example the Lebanese the the syrians they don't translate they put Al on it they elongate the the Hamza they elongate it and how do they how do they interpret that term would they interpret it because like now up the one with the the the translations the translation now is into the father but the but the origin of the word from the seric language or the Aramaic it does not mean it does not mean h ABA because ABA is in Hebrew and Aramaic no but they both if they both mean the same they both mean father then it doesn't matter but in the Arabic The no in the Arabic it doesn't say because in the Arabic translation it says AB not AB yeah but that's what I'm saying when I asked you how do they interpret AB they interpret it as father but I'm talking about I'm talking about the the originality of the word AB it's they they say it's one of the names of Allah right right so so so would it be that they would have would one more so be uh have a connotation of of being called lord rather than father yes something like that yeah right yeah and and also we see this in the Quran where like Allah when he does quote uh he's never quoting saying um saying that term AB right he always quotes him saying instead right which has which has the connotations of what what they would understand from the term ab and under this view just be that okay at one point he did say this when the Quran is quoting like as we know the Quran doesn't quote verbatim doesn't quote verbatim like speech of people it's it's a meanings um so yeah it is possible did use this and it just now been abated due to the misinterpretations of people and it was never abated right never actually there are a couple interesting points about this agregation thing so first of all if you go to Hosea he he makes a prophecy and he says that there's going to come a time where people will not call God okay now why is that relevant because one of the names of God in the Hebrew Bible was Bal Bal yeah but it was abrogated why because it it's assoc it became associated with the Canaanite B yeah like Allah says so it became associated with that so that's why Jose says is not going to be used in the future so it could be that father was abated but the second thing is uh it's not even clear that uh from from the evidence we have that even said father and son because if you go to the earliest gospel mark it uses like father son language is like four times and then in Matthew it's like 23 times and then in John it's like 90 times so there's a trend they're increasing father son language back if you extrapolate back before Mark then it's possible Jesus never used this term but he will innovated it and know I just remembered something now actually which I read in one of the books uh it says that there is someone a theologian and by the name of Theodor Zan if you have heard of him he actually said that uh the Father the term the father appeared actually in the second century like towards uh80 something like that but before then God was to be referred to as Almighty and then from Almighty they went to Father Theodor xan actually he mentioned this one when when did he say it was introduced about 180 Common Era okay interesting um yeah that's interesting take because the thing is they always make a big fuss about this yeah he's a German he's a ger look is called him father they they God not the literal father because when we ask them how do you interpret the term father and the term son in the context of Jesus and God Almighty is he the literal son they say no then it can only be a metaphoric son and the same thing with the father I think john7 says your father and my father your go sorry my God and my father and your father and my God and your God so he's saying that the term father uh it does actually it's more of a metaphoric term here and it applies not just to Jesus it's like what said be your lord and my lord your God and my God my God no no he says my God and your God yeah yeah yeah no but I meaners yeah I think I think the term father is used in Deuteronomy and Isaiah so there were Jews who were using it but did Isa used that to me I would say he could have but it's actually not so clear there are passages where he using it could it be a corruption it could but it doesn't have to be even even the a in the Quran is not clear 100% that because it can be interpreted as Jews are no longer the sons of God uh or that it's an abrogated term as IB cir mentions in his T so it is possible that it uh it's a corruption fatherson language in the Bible but it's also possible it was used but then just misunderstood or that Jews are no longer the sons of God as Dean quoted Deuteronomy saying that the Jews are not the sons of God when they said H I'm gonna actually guys head out I might come back in like half an hour or something but I have to do something so right so I'm assuming those highlights are now completed because we reached the end of it isn't it yeah that's wanted to summarize like what we're saying now so that the whole the whole reason why we were discussing this is the main point he was saying of well if you're going to say generally affirms the contents found within uh the Old Testament or the sayings preachings and Parables of of isaam well the generality of it contradicts your your view now really the only thing within the sayings teachings and preachings of isaam is like um the death and and Resurrection which for the most part isn't actually being spoken by but more of an a narrative account or um an account of his biography right which which isn't U part of my definition of what the in would be uh and then yeah with as as I mentioned before the reconciliations between the term can be done and that was like the really main point he made the main point was of well it's integrated in the text the whole usage of the term Father and Son uh yeah if we can reconcile that he didn't really have any other um major point to be made on that account um but I don't know if you guys discussed the point about he was trying to I'm not even sure what how relevant it was trying to shn this point of of L like that account in the Bible did you guys talk about that yes I mentioned it earlier on when uh I don't know why he brought it up he thought that he scored a point there um not not in the perspective the that you wanted to be discussed so yeah do you want to just highlight that yeah so so the point would just be that um it seems like Chris when he's he's making these points uh he tries his best like not to be charitable at all and he he comes from a perspective where he does he doesn't understand um the hermeneutics that we uphold to and he tries to act blind to it while like holding to uh the same point of view in in in his sort of uh uh book his own his own sort of scripture because there was times like for example where he was asking just to link it back to another point he was asking okay where does the Quran and Sunnah say or or the Quran more so I think he said uh actually I think he did make the point of both Quran and Sunnah he said show me Universal corruption being made to the scriptures not just uh a local sense now I should have mentioned this in the debate but we interpret um Whenever there are verses mentioning like textual corruption or or other things uh we always interpret them as first uh rather than than unless there's precedence to take it to be right if there's precedence to take it to be um as a specific sense rather than General then okay we would interpret it so right and there's so many cases like in where this occurs and there's a difference of opinion because it's not actually stipulated clearly whether this is or not and this would be one of those cases um I should mentioned this in debate but I forgot and uh yeah just just point being made here was his inconsistency as I was saying of interpreting the text and acting blind like how we interpret the Quran well I gave him the point of in the Bible you say well we don't need a Verbatim speech from from isaam saying I am God worship me we can interpret it through his his uh his speech and you can inter from the meaning of his speech that he's alluding to that fact well why don't you give the same like charitability when we read the Quran that when there's textual corruption going on there's an illusion to it being a type of corruption that would have seeped itself into the text based upon other verses where the Quran is correcting the Bible right so just having good like charitable hermeneutics which he was just not willing to do yeah by the way there's a Christian misrepresenting you so maybe you want to answer his question it says Dean says the angel is in the Bible wow finally Muslims starting to reason well is that Chris in the background there or maybe he doesn't understand like Chris what Dean is saying Subhan Allah guys go do your homework yeah right you want to respond to that guy yeah so um yeah as I mentioned in the debate like many times the in would just be like the preachings teachings and Commandments of of generally found like in the gospels and and and past past the gospels right uh there's no affirmation of it even being the majority of the cases that that's not necessary uh the Quran never titles inj as being like or having a dignified status as much as as the Torah the Torah is called as having the H of Allah it's called multiple times um the in rather uh you just you just mean being it being found in Parts within the Quran not much not much of the Quran actually talks about um the contents of of the in all uh so yeah during the debate I wasn't holding to the view that will be the majority of it and Al also the majority of the gospels is uh from the perspective of the author and and talking about other individuals rather than the actual gospel that Jesus peace be upon him was preaching yeah so did you gospel themselves even the gospel themselves talk about um and Jesus went and preached the gospel so the authors of the Gospel they're actually saying Jesus went and he preached the gospel so obviously whatever he preached is the gospel not the the narratives and the accounts that is now in the New Testament so I we brought up this Ayah uh inan in which Allah says he's going to teach him Christ the son of Mary theab the andil so inil is is something that Allah would teach him so that means he had the inil taught by Allah and historically speaking if these if if if it referred to the gospel uh that is in the New Testament gospels rather Matthew Mark looking John how do you reconcile this quranic Ayah oh Christians because here Allah is going to teach him the injil so are you Christians thinking that Allah will teach him the gospel of Mark the gospel of Matthew Gospel of Luke and Gospel of John they weren't even there at at the time of Christ so how can it even refer to those four gospels yeah and and obviously Allah is not going to be teaching Alam his own his own biography right it's going to be like Commandments it's going to be parables it's going to be teachings and so on and and there was there was no Prophet after as we know from like that so you can't even reconcile about the fact that oh maybe a prophet afterwards wrote about his biography as as possible Revelation you can't even make that case so the biographical information ofam is definitely not there's no case to be made for that um but with the case of mam that's kind of different because it is possible maybe on a later account um Mam's story would have been written as as a revelation to a future Prophet so that's a bit harder to yeah so let's focus on theil part and let's um educate our Christian audience here so there's no way the Quran can refer to your four gospels um in the New Testament because here you New Testament refers to his interactions and biography and God is not going to Allah is not going to teach him his biography as uh brother de mentions here very important point to to highlight and something that Allah has taught him he taught him the T so God Allah taught isaam Jesus the son of Mary the tah and the injil so get this really you know in your comprehension that this is a book or a revelation specifically that God has taught Christ so it cannot be the gospel the gospel that Allah is referring to here cannot be the gospel that is you know going around in your circles as Gospel of Matthew Mark Luke and John okay so let me tell you if there was a Christian and they asked you this question uh from John 12 verse 49-50 how would he respond for I did not speak on my own this is by the way Jesus speaking apparently uh for I did not speak on my own but the father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken I know that his command leads to eternal life life so whatever I say is just what the father has told me to say which means god taught him what to say and I suppose um that is what they wrote down but in the Quran he says he was thought both the the the actual and yeah the Torah and the injil but these guys are saying that this is uh this confirms John confirms this statement of the Quran in other words what if they say that but it still wouldn't address the point of uh uh from from the point of uh the biographical information not being part of the the in right all this affirms really is just that whatever whatever speaks from he speaks from right and could be classed as the sunah for us you know like speaks for Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam we interpret it as the Sunnah so which which refers to in the the verse inah Al Imran it could be the sunah also of the of that time it's prophets Prophet yeah yeah but the Christians also say that Jesus grew in wisdom he grew in you can also refer to the wisdom that Allah has taught wisdom that are embedded or not known within the scriptures yeah the the yah the children of Israel B Israel they had the T but they actually lost the spirit the wisdom in understanding it so Isa Alam came to help them to regain the understanding the wisdom and remember remember also that Allah has put certain rules for them and and abated it was abated at his time that I will make allowed for you that which been disallowed yeah yeah so you know one way to look at this is also I mean look we are talking about Jesus here who for the Christians is their God so when when Jesus when that God says that he was commanded by the father who is his God that itself shows that you are a god receiving commands from somebody else and you can't deviate from it you're a subordinate you right but they they try to cope and say well this is uh just them taking different roles but it doesn't like have any say in terms of ontology but clearly clearly it does and part of your your knowledge the omniscience is part of the nature of God it's not something he acquires as a role of course course of course it's the same thing asically they are wrong in that sense because of course you know there are things of God which are with him for eternity until you're telling me that God acquires knowledge at certain age at certain time yes of course then it's not ontological but when it's omniscience when it's immortality when it's things like that which God possesses you look look but look I when once I debated that Dave and someone else and it was about the same thing about like the attributes of Allah like he says that he's not a cre Creator until he creates he's not knowledgeable until he knows he's not powerful until he does you understand this is for them so so Allah has put an attribute Allah is not loving until he loves yeah look at the language here look at the language once again it says for I did not speak on my own okay but the father who sent me commanded me to say not who commands somebody a master commands a servant subordinate yes or or your boss commands you you're not qu equal to that person a master is not qu equal to the servant and Jesus clearly says this in another place yes yes yes so so the problem is they they they Tred to attach the two but but I agree that uh because there's an ontological sense of uh what's going on here then therefore there's this difference in uh en rolls going on right that's that's what's clear from the text and that's what's clear from role look when you command to do something okay then you it clearly shows subordination like the said very clearly it's I've chosen a role you have chosen a role 100% I want to just ask a question on this one here do you think in their understanding of of of the deity or godhead or God uh in in in in in the picture that they have in their minds that God is three persons with different roles is this something that is done it that came about by choice or was it there by necessity this this this roles so the father seems to be the one who commands and the son be one be be recipient of this command and obeys and and shows this you know they would say they would say that it's not um they would say that it's not necessary now they would say that these are like hypothetic properties like these would be like not uh necessary conditions but but the point is is that did they arise by chance did they did they arise by chance did they arise by necessity did they arise by choice how can knowledge be by by is something that's come later knowledge has to be by necessity of God right yeah exactly and the roles I'm talking about the difference of roles yeah yeah so were the roles risen by a necessity you said no so was it by choice then they would say it's by choice yeah so if this the the son could have chosen still can choose to become uh the most high the one who's that's right in the hierarchy that's right come on father you go you know I'm going to send you down next time uh you know you go and die for you know the elephant I me it depends and you become one of the elephants to save the elephants I mean is can the sun Now command something like this with no disrespect but just shows how you know you know ridiculous sometimes people don't understand God Is Not a Human Being so become a God and sending someone like this it's like me saying oh God then chooses to become a rat and then you know save to save the rats how ridiculous does sound no 100% And that that really depends on which view you take because uh I think the C the Catholics would say that that that it is possible for the son to take upon the role of the father that's not like um impossible but the Eastern Orthodox would say no uh they have their own du roles and it's by their like own will that they they wouldn't go outside of the roles but the main point is be that um it's the both is happening here both uh there's an because there's an ontological difference between the father and the son hence uh they are taking different roles so for example because your boss may have certain qualities ontologically speaking uh he will take on that higher position he take on that higher role and that's what's happening here because the father has a higher ontology than the son he's taking that role of being the father yeah where did this High anology come from is it by choice is it is a brute fact how is it explained when you have you know three Eternal persons who have different you know characteristics in that same I mean the nature is not the same even though apparently they share the same nature but it's not the same yeah that's right yeah yeah this is the inconsistency that um that's presented within the gospels right this is why like most um most early church fathers were like sportan aists most of them actually agreed that there was a difference of ontology between the father and the son this was only a later developed idea a later um reconciliation being made in in the Council of NAA where they they're trying to reconcile these ideas in scripture right but yeah obviously in scripture especially even in John it's apparent that that Jesus is subordinate to the father both in role and both in onthology yeah okay I want to just come back okay wants to sayare something just want to quickly point this out so uh speaking of roles here Jesus is saying Jesus uh sorry Jesus gave them this answer very truly I tell you the son can do nothing by himself okay he can only do what he sees his father doing because whatever the father does the son also does remember this whatever the father does the son also does now we know according to the Bible the father has a son can the son have a son can the father have a grandfather can the father have a grandfather sorry have a grandson you know it's it's crazy because here he nullifies his ontology he says very truly I tell you the son can do nothing by himself yeah so he's dependent clearly and not co-equal right but then he says he can only do what the father is doing what he sees the father doing because whatever the father does the son also does and the Bible you know the son uh the father is the one who actually um gives command to Jesus like we just saw in the earlier passage yes what to say and what to do similarly he does the same thing with the Holy Spirit remember the holy spirit says that I can not speak uh sorry the uh he will not speak of his own he will only see what he hears again the father is commanding the Holy Spirit what to say and what to do as well so both of them are subordinate not just Jesus Christ both of them are subordinate to um the almighty God and Jesus refer to him picture throughout Dean I'm sure you know that we read uh in the New Testament where it seems to be like even when it comes to knowledge uh no one seems to know the our only one who knows is the father not even the son the holy spirit is not even mentioned there but by implication you know holy spirit is excluded as well but I want to come to come to the point I want to ask you um y if the injil according to Islam is something that isaam preached and he taught the people being taught by Allah subhana wa tala why is his teaching um should be restricted to in the four gospel that the church at some point chose to include as the collection of his sayings are they suggesting in some way shape or form that these are the some collective with all of his teachings that he taught does it even yeah and this isn't representative of even what what John has to say what John John says that there's many things that Jesus taught but it would be like contained even if uh you had many many books to write right so it's not it's obviously not contained to to to the four gospels and it there's obviously dependence you can see from like a q Source between Matthew and Luke so there was obviously other writings that they were depending upon um so so yeah like that would be the main point the main point is that we do see historically a dependency between Matthew and Luke as well as John presents an idea that Jesus did many many things that aren't able to be contained and um yeah I just wanted to to share this this thing uh regarding the quote that you mentioned of Jesus not knowing the hour I think this quote's very useful if you could guys share my screen if you don't mind yeah yeah can yeah so this is a quote from uh from Aron nus right um he says that uh very explicitly so like Jesus does not know the hour in a bit because it's quite small oh yeah sure sorry my bad uh I can't really zoom in much more than that is is this okay that's fine yeah okay y yeah so uh he says but beyond the reason inflated within your own wisdom you presumptuously maintain oh just to give a reference sorry uh the reference is book two chapter 28 against heresies and uh Arin like he comes at around 180 ad right so he's pre niia and he continues this theme of this like Jesus being subordinate in anthological sense so what what he says is this but beyond reason inflated within your own wisdom you presumptuously maintain that you are acquainted with the Unspeakable mysteries of God well even the Lord the very Son of God allowed that the father alone well that's a bad translation it should be um isn't ashame that the father alone knows the very day and hour of judgment when he plainly declares but of that day and that hour knows no man neither the son but the father only if then the son was not ashamed to ascribe the knowledge of that day to the father only but declared what was true regarding the matter neither let us be ashamed to reserve for God those greater questions which may occur to us so he's saying here very explicitly and he's responding to Heretics at the time where they say that um how can you say you know everything about God like you can't know the mysteries of God even the Son of God the very Son of God didn't know certain things and he wasn't ashamed to to say this right so it's very clear here from the understanding because you know how they like to say Hashim that um no he's saying in a declarative sense in a declarative sense he doesn't know the hour or if if the son or sorry if the father didn't know then the son wouldn't know type of thing thing very ad Hawk like unintuitive explanations of the T they say something about some Jewish wedding or something where theing the date the sun doesn't you know kind of rubbish but Jesus didn't say that he's not going to tell you the hour he says he doesn't know the hour only the father knows I mean you can't get away from that EXA exactly and we should take this to the next level now where we say um where we critique the historical um earliest interpretations of the text which would be like like this that he literally did not know and only later when the doctrines had developed they imposed this understanding onto the text in an ad hoc way right where basil talks about if the father doesn't know then the son doesn't know uh type of thing which sorry who's saying this again uh this is uh araus arus okay they just say it's Catholics uh you know you tell the Protestants they'll tell you oh we don't believe in the Catholic writings yeah but if if you add to that Dean which you probably have referred to already the manuscript evidence in which the Scribe some of the scribes felt uncomfortable that the sun didn't know so they omed that phrase not even the sun right yeah and basil and you know basil um when he makes this explanation oh he gives two explanations right he gives an explanation from Matthew an explanation from Mark now in Matthew the one they referring to where they Adit that text basil actually says he has it in his manuscripts basil doesn't mention that it's not found right so um yeah that that's interesting too but but the main point also from this is uh this actually this proves that that the Holy Spirit knows as well if you go to um okay uh if you can to share my screen again yeah oh yeah you got it okay so um he makes the point here talking about so he makes the point of Jesus not knowing the hour right but then he says the same Son of God so they're going to try to say it's the human nature here that's the first thing but you got to you got to tell them well does the human nature know his like what what's going to be described now so what it goes on to say is this if anyone there for says to us how then was the son produced by the father we reply to him that no man understands the production or generation or calling or Revelation no man understands this so a human can't understand it or by whatever a name one may describe his generation which is in fact altogether Indescribable neither valentinus no Marc No satanus bases Angels archangels no principalities no one but the father only who begot and the son who was begotten so who are the only two um people that actually know uh how the son was begotten it's only the father and the son he doesn't mention the Holy Spirit which again contradicts the Trinity uh and another point to made word begotten as well don't forget right because begotten actually means to sire through reproduction right and and and the point being made here is um another thing just to debunk the idea that this is talking about the human nature uh he's clearly not making a difference between the first section and the highlighted section here that he's talking about the same Son of God so the same Son of God that knows his own production and knows like this sort of esoteric knowledge he he doesn't know um the knowledge even though he knows this right so clearly he's not talking about the human nature here and even he makes it um if anyone's going to tell you that he's not talking about knowledge well there's another section here that'll help right so section eight for if anyone should inquire the reason why the father who has fellowship with the son in all things has been declared by the Lord alone to know the hour and day of judgment he will find at present no more suitable or becoming or say freezon this since indeed the Lord is the only true master that we may learn through him that the father is above all things so wait the reasoning he gives as to why the son doesn't know and the Father Knows isn't because of a human nature he's saying that it's because the father is greater than the son that this is the case right then he goes on to say for the father says he is greater than I so the same the same passage we quote to the Christians yeah for the father is greater than I he's interpreting in the same sense the father therefore has been declared by our Lord to excel with respect uh to knowledge very explicit so yeah this is this would be a good quote to bring up in conjunction with the whole Mark 13:32 and passage of like Jesus not knowing the hour and if they dispute this with any other interpretation just show them that this is a layer developed interpretation that they're adding to the text and in an ad hoc manner yeah so the point um thank you for that so when it comes to now the concept you know Quran affirming the inil or the T when we are dealing with the inel the inel is obviously according to their gospels Christ preached and did lot of things which are not recorded So they themselves know that you know you can't present these new testament as the inil of Christ because they're only doing a partial collection of what meim have done some kind of biographical works and so when we look at the historical record in the historical meu uh Dean I'm sure you're familiar with the different gospels people are in at that time for the last for the first you know few hundred years um and they were writing about what Christ has done what Christ has said and things like this which are not accepted in the cannon of the New Testament and they have just relegated them to be the Apocrypha so when we look at those apocryphal gospels which they don't accept nevertheless they were written by not Muslims because Muslims were not there in the sense that you know they were followers of you know Muhammad sallam at that time but they were supposedly followers of uh Christ and Believers of Christ and they wrote about it they wrote when what they believed and they wrote like the gospel of St Thomas for example um things like Gospel of Philip Gospel of Judas Gospel of Mary gospel of in and so many different gospels which do not uh have exactly the same stuff in there the materials there in terms of narratives actions and statements what you find in the four gospels so if one were to ask us where is the gospel that we can trace back to like you can show where is the manuscript well you did not really preserve his teaching in total in exactly as you should have they're all scuttered around historical narratives um in the first few few centuries and perhaps some of them are not recorded because they were oral teachings and some of them may have even been lost okay so the actual gospel um if if you agree with this then tell me the actual gospel that Christ was taught that he preached is not something that they can recover because it's not something that you know it was written by Christ himself do they do the any Christians in your knowledge uh believe Christ actually authored the gospel that he preached of course not uh they would say it was authored by inspired um inspired authors apparently disciples uh which even if we were to gr they were written by disciples this doesn't still doesn't fit the conception that the Quran presents of what G years yeah the Bible keeps on presenting like um even Luke says at very beginning of his uh gospel introduction like lots of people were writing the accounts and it seemed good to good to him also to write an orderly account so clearly you know there are a lot of attempts to recollect the teaching of Christ some were accepted and some were not accepted so if Christians are trying to search where the gospel is well I'm afraid the gospel has been lost in Oblivion in the different you know writings that may have survived little bit here and there maybe another thing is another thing is I mentioned the manuscripts and he chooses to interject and then like we kind of have to stop like uh well Chris I'm saying Chris chooses to interject and um yeah he then suggests oh we shouldn't have the format in this way where um you know the person who's being questioned gets the L say I was I was mentioning how in response to where's the inil where's the uncorrupted inil I mentioned that well you don't have any first century manuscripts or us to even verify your concept of what the inil is your M Mark Matthew Luke and John uh we have zero first century manuscripts from the manuscripts we do have we see redactions and we see uh the fact that there's additions uh in the earliest manuscript tradition even hundreds years past the authorship of these gospels we still see see people managing to like add certain narratives you know the story of the adulterous woman uh the story of like Jesus appearing to the disciples and of Mark these are all like additions and stuff to add to the narrative uh that came about hundreds of years later and you're trying to tell me to believe that Mark Matthew Luke and John is the exact same as um how it would have been seen like in the first century like that's that's just like a crazy but so so in the same way he's he people were ask well where's the in in the first century where's the where's the Torah at time mam your earliest manuscripts uh for the Torah come I mean about a thousand years after the time of mam as well as the earliest manuscript you have Alam comes more than 100 years later thousand thousands because when did M Alam um supposedly you know according to their tradition um walk on the earth and when do we have the extent manuscripts the Dead Sea Scrolls is you know what you know just like 2, 100 or something not from our times right now um few hundred years 200 Years BC or something like this isn't it that's that's like the earliest as well like something when did M Alam walk on this earth 3,00 years yeah so look at the Gap that you have you know what happened to all these gaps so you have no documentary evidence so all they're relying on is All Transmission or tradition in fact the Quran alludes to the point I'm sure J you know they used to write it in ktis in in Scrolls and it's easy to change and manipulate that's point one point two not everyone had access to those uh Scrolls or the scripture even in the uh New Testament times how many people actually had in their position the l ly the lay people common people they had you know I have the the Bible in my hands it's only you know the the people who are exceptionally well of maybe you know the rich and so on uh or the clery so it wasn't available at large on large in the public hands in public I mentioned this I mentioned this during my debate as well where I say he asked me when is this Universal corruption gon to occur I told him what's gon to be it's going to be at a point as you mentioned when people are literate they don't have much access to the scripture as well as there isn't a capability of mass transmission which is the main point if it's not Massy transmitted there's no way to uh actually preserve the text um in efficient so that's the question I was going to ask the So-Cal such he says it's impossible to have Universal corruption no it's always possible in your textual history because the text wasn't in the hands of the people unlike the Quran the Quran was in the hearts of all people Muslims hundreds and thousands of people from each generation memorized and passed it on that's why you cannot corrupt it that's why you cannot change it but when it comes to the the gospel all the New Testament writings and so on it wasn't available to the public so it was easy to change and corrupt because only a handful of people were in control of it and especially when you have you know the the So-Cal Orthodoxy in control and they will suppress the writings just like the way uh I mean it's still to this day people are asking this question how are the four gospels for example ending up ending up in the New Testament as a canonical you know what were the criteria used out of many other gospels that were supposedly around so the idea being that you cannot have an Universal Corruption of the the Bible uh it doesn't actually add up you can because of the very nature of how the text was transmitted to their text so I think this was one of the major objections he was trying to say uh in terms of you cannot corrupt the New Testament or the Old Testament the Bible but you can and if this was the case then you can say like for every religion like you know Mass mive people believed in it and they've spread from there why why why do you say that can be corrupted but we see this is the case why did the Samaritans have their own version of the Torah the pent Samaritan pent why does it differ from the mastic text why does it differ from the Dey scroll the seent the reason you differ is because you know the differences already amendments change already took place a long time ago and this didn't just finish the corruption alteration uh change didn't stop there it continued throughout the ages and when you look at the manuscript tradition and this is something that the Christians want to hide and suppress it when you look at the manuscript tradition you can see you can trace that it's happening even in the Middle Ages how they inserted in Heaven There the three the father you know the three persons they want to make it you know 1 John 57 okay they inserted this in Middle Ages just think about it in Middle Ages 14 15th century at that time they were able to just forge a text to support their doctrinal belief that's how the level of the corruption was if you study um and I'm sure you are de textual criticism and you pick up a standard textbook they will show you like this is what you know the writer of one of the the editor of is said Vatican or sius writes on the margin okay you fools leave this something like un profiting text alone because they were keep changing the text and he was saying just it as it is you know don't keep changing because you think this is what the text is but but because when you start changing things what you think it should be that's a corruption by your intention it could be be based on your ignorance you thought there was a grammatical mistake and you corrected it and you've altered the text when he was not supposed to be yeah so that's how the manuscripts present to us in terms of how the changes occurred throughout so Chris was trying to play an something interesting With You Dean that he says the coruption or preservation should be something like in meaning or something like that rather than just textual changes and variation here and there do you do you remember yeah yeah he was trying to make the point of uh well it's not good enough to say that there's textual corruption you have to show that there's an actual corruption in in the narrative and the meaning of the text but the narrative and meaning of the text of of the Gospel isn't even like part like the vast majority of the narrative is from the biographical accounts from the perspective of the author a lot of the time it's not actually from Alam himself and you even see like in Luke the disciples are uh they're surprised that Isam was was resurrected like like they didn't expect it right I mention this like in the Gospel of Luke so U yeah from from the mouth of as himself historically and even like if you look at some for some Inc consisten for some consistency within the Gospels it doesn't add up um yeah so more so comes from the biographical account so the the very thing in question the bi Graal account gives you that meaning that contradicts the Quran so it's not um yeah you need to help me out on this I'm I'm bit at lost uh with words in terms of how to present the Christian dilemma is it a Christian mind dilemma or Christian understanding dilemma um where they don't understand our text and they coming up with this dilemma so tell me about this Pharisee dilemma dilemma the Christian wants to really really really get into because since there is no such thing as Islamic dilemma because it's based on your misunderstanding of our text of our teachings so let's go and see whether there is such a dilemma in your you know um religious uh teachings so tell us about this fary dilemma yeah sorry before you respond to that Dean just want to make an announcement uh so those who are waiting in the chat we have actually pinned the link for you guys to join the panel for for the Q&A because I noticed it's already been over four hours oh yeah so please uh if you if you're non-muslim you'll be given priority the Muslims need to hold off until a bit later when we'll invite you inshallah so I see a lot of uh Christians like Tori is it Tori or whoever it is yeah uh please jump on board now is your turn you know you've been a keyboard warrior in the private chat sorry in the in the live chat now is your turn to come and present to us face to face your arguments so we can actually respond to you uh if you are you know if you got the truth you shouldn't be worried come on board and preach the gospel preach the truth if it is save yourself from the Christian dilemma that we're going to now present uh for you to be entertained with go ahead uh de sure so so um the reason why um I was even exposed to this as well was because I was researching into um in preparation for my discussion with inspiring philosop op and uh yeah you know going into like the oral law of things how the Jewish oral law actually allows for for young marriages to occur and I notice some uh some issue here in Matthew 23 and like this this requires like proper hermeneutics in order to reconcile the text and the thing that's being said here is essentially Jesus is saying to obey the Pharisees in in their teachings but their teachings include include an oral law and Jesus contradicts the oral law many times s right he shows that there's exceptions to the oral law where you shouldn't be following it or he even shows the understanding of the Pharisees is wrong of Moses's law right talking about how divorce um should shouldn't be allowed um unless in the case of adultery so read here Jesus says oh it says the then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples the teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit and Moses seat so you must be careful to do everything they tell you but do not do what they do for they do not practice what they preach so essentially what he's saying here is you must obey the Pharisees and what they teach but don't do what they do because they're Hypocrites so their actions don't imitate their teachings however are you you should obey everything that that they're teaching uh as I mentioned before like this stuff where Jesus like he does contradict them so the how to solve uh this apparent issue uh and obviously this this there's two extremes that someone could go through uh that um wouldn't be appropriate which would be to say that no no Jesus has an understanding that everything the Pharisees teach is wrong and he's speaking here and I don't know some allegorical or metaphorical sense for some other reason right something that's not apparent to the text that's one position another position is to say actually everything that Pharisees teach Jesus is actually commanding for which obviously presents contradictions and what be terrible to the text so the only way to actually reconcile this is to say that well he's speaking in general terms here he's saying he's saying to generally obey the Pharisees and what they teach because generally speaking when they teach the law and they when they have their teachings being taught they're teaching the truth right so so generally uh you should obey um the Pharisees and not an absolute sense and and the reason why this is a dilemma if you were to take this um in the uncharitable sense I mentioned before how the Christians like to you know take the Quran if you take this to be an absolute sense then you have a contradiction in your book you're going to have to concede that uh Jesus is approving of of all the Traditions but at the same time of disapproving them um which is obviously like like a contradiction the only way to really reconcile this is is to say what I said and and that Jesus is speaking in general terms uh and if you're going to say that this is a uh not just a possible reading but the the the reading that is most appropriate because we were meant to try to harmonize the text then be consistent with the Quran just because the Quran isn't your scripture doesn't mean that you can have one standard one strict and conserved standard for the Quran but for you you can be as charitable as possible so let's understand that because they're not charitable and they use um this similar arguments against the Quran so now they need to be consistent and show consistency and then you know believe that the Bible is false because it has a contradiction and contradiction cannot be from God if it's not from God obviously it's it's it's not a revelation to believe in in the first place in any way shape or form so by bringing this so-called Islamic dilemma argument they have actually become apiz from their own religion because they shot themselves in their own foot by showing that the same argument they bring actually is present in their own belief system in their own text and with the same argument their own belief system becomes falsified so well done Christians pists but if you really are going to be someone who wants to understand that actually this is not the case then you know think about your Islamic dilemma argument you know it's no longer an argument for you to use anywhere so if we see again ever anyone uses an Islamic dilemma argument parting your pists and and missionaries they there then the whole world would know that you are a hypocrite and you have no Integrity you have no love for truth and you are not even sincere you are just playing games no one's going to fall for your games and all you will achieve is nothing brother brother brother Hashim can you put Chapter Room which I think it's 30 verse 32 please yeah inshallah uh before I do that just want to make an announcement so if there any Christians uh who are watching this uh please do jump on it looks like there's barely any Christian coming on board uh to defend your poist or your apologist defend the Christian dilemma now it's it's we've turned okay I want to really um thank uh Brother Dean response for turning around let you know you've turned the table around and demonstrated actually it's not an Islamic dilemma it's a Christian dilemma so now we need to see how the Christians deal with their Christian dilemma that's all you should now worry about day and night in your sleep and in your nightmares so anyone there willing to defend and clarify and clear this Christian dilemma let's see who who's available right sorry what was the Ayah number again I believe it's Chapter 30 verse 32 okay 3032 all right here we go right this one yes yeah Allah in here makes it clear uh can you can you make it a little bit bigger please because I can't see yeah like those who have divided their faith and split into sects the the the Christians look how many sects they are split into sects each rejoicing in what they have each people saying that they are the true so you have got the Proto the the Orthodox you have got the Coptic you have got the maronian in there you have got the Armenian Church you have got the Ethiopian Church you have got the uh Protestants the anglicans all the different churches the Catholics the main people yeah the cath the Catholics yeah true so all of these Subhan Allah and each one of them is saying is saying that that they were happy with the with that which they have and rejoicing and the the thing about it is that this verse Subhan Allah is in the chapter of Rome the Romans it's in the chapter of Romans and they were they were chrisan s right um I'm going to I think there's a guest here oh has he left already hash Hashim if you could just um Kick Out Manny in the pr I think he's left himself I I have a feeling he was a Hindu he wasn't a Christian uh because they normally come with this weird you know with profanities uh so fil are you a Christian or what are you can you please write in the chat I think it's probably the same okay Muslims are not allowed yet uh are there any non-muslims who want to join and you know Christians specifically because the topic is uh on Christianity um so please do come forward I can do I can do with the Sani bring one on inah you you'll have to be patient until next time yeah where is the story guy what is this so-call Jesus Is God not yeah what is it yeah what are they are they only like keyboard Warriors so Jesus is not God then e after all so there's no Christians in the in the back chat yeah no there are no okay I'm not sure if um insults how long is usually the the Q&A um well it depends on the audience looks like no one is uh nobody wants to come forward all right um are there any Christians who want to come forward come on guys no it's all right uh is there something you wanted to present from because you had some time stamps uh do you want to present from that um I'm not sure if did you guys go through the time stamps before or what did you guys no we only went through um brother ibrahim's highlights oh his highlights okay um okay we talked about we talked about the argument from Silence um also one of uh one of my main points was that um I we look at the time STS should I A lot of people are asking me for my PowerPoint as well um maybe maybe I could share that in the chat too second okay you can make your PowerPoint available on your social media if yeah by the way those people who want to watch the full debate between Chris and uh Dean uh we have linked um the uh the link is actually in the video description of this particular Stream So if you want to watch it look at the description video description we have provided the link there in Dean um did you get uh the rights to have that debate posted on your social media channels no I haven't yet Hashim told me to to get that I I did message them for authorization but um yeah I wouldn't expect them to respond yeah so next time if you're going to have any discussion engagement debate something like this you know get all of this sorted you know prior like you need to have rights and access to the debates to be posted actually he did he did give me yeah while I was asleep I did get a message that uh I I do have authorization yeah it yeah that's good all right so we've got one Christian here apparently let's see if it's really a Christian no it's left okay uh rzan Khan you're in the back Studio are you Muslim if you just say yes rwan is Muslim there's no one I mean if there's no one there we can take uh brother isan and who is this talking to yourself go don't worry about it sh uh Rizwan Khan [ Muslim - from Pakistan ] :: [[ is making a mess with Allah's throne, pen, magnetic field, hot plasma, etc. ]] we have uh got ran here uh ran are you there hello hello there can you hear can you see me yes we can hear you see you how are you brother yeah there are no Christians joining so we thought we' let the Muslims in now uh so if there are any Muslims who want to take the stage please come forward inshallah yes so basically what I'm saying is that uh what what I wanted to say is that you know uh it's for me it's like a a like a common sense that uh anyone would not like to believe you know that uh that God Almighty who is the creator of the universe that he would come down as a human being and then would uh allow himself to be killed uh by his own creation to save people from the hell fire that he himself created it's it's more like a non nonsensical belief from the beginning and I think maybe our um you know like when we because now the humanity has come down come closer to each other in the past they were human beings were different you know like they were uh some groups were living in Europe some we were living in our own countries in Asia and other but now as time progress people have come together and come closer to each other and platforms like the modern platforms that we have they have brought us together and we are communicating with each other and it seems to me that you know that there's a saying that uh that isaam when he will come that he will break the cross to me it looks as if the cross is already broken let's put it that way so for me it's like our delivery of message should be more like uh you know accept Islam you know that they have to you should accept Islam because very clearly that is alamet mammad upon him he established the kingdom of God isaam he did not establish kingdom of God he said very clearly that after me another one will come and he will lead you into all truth if I will not go he will not come he will speak of me it's very clearly he's mentioning this and isaam he he went up he didn't he you know and we see that uh the city of words the people who are pagans it it uh that 500 year or 450 year of Gap it helped to uh convert the people who were pagans earlier into uh people who would believe in ibraim Alam who would believe in the in in the god of ibraim in the god of prophet Moses you know so it cleared the way and when alh wasallam and the followers of prophet Muhammad peace be upon when they came when they took over the entire Known World at that time it just uh you know helped to in the end they saw that yes it's indeed that Al wasallam that he has come and you know and Islam is spreading throughout the whole world and it's indeed it's Allah that he is indeed the messenger of Allah and uh you know and even it's in the Bible that oh ishma I will make thy Nation as stars so we are we are the stars of what that actually is mentioned in the Bible you know so uh it's very clear that uh there that that the kingdom of God that it has already been established brother Redan brother Redan don't use that because you said before that Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam established the the kingdom of God don't don't use that term for because we don't believe in that Allah King and he's the one that establishes what he wants to establish so inshallah just just pass with them you read it every day yes yes okay that's true what I mean is that the the dean was established that's what I meant actually you know yeah so it's better like yeah that's basically what I was saying that uh you know yeah so Allah completed his uh his theme with with the with the last messenger obviously and with the last message the Quran there there is one more thing I want to mention if you allow me it's very beautiful actually you see that uh we spoke about this earlier also and then it was about the colum and the throne and I did some investigation again and uh for me you see uh the the the The Throne of Allah was over the waters okay before the creation of the universe okay there was the throne I understand that okay we know that there is something called um uh there's something called uh superconductor superconductor is something that's H it's attive - 273 degrees Celsius and they found is that at this temperature even the atoms they freeze okay so when you bring a magnetic field towards this superconductor uh this something that the scientists have seen that it generates its own powerful magnetic field you know that's one thing before we know there uh from this column I mentioned earlier also there was this light that came and I was watching the uh lecture of Dr is Ahmed he mentioned that from the beginning in the beginning there was this very Sublime light that came from the colum and it intensified and then we had the smoke appearing and then we had the Allah says he parted and then he made a new seven Heavens but before that you see in the fusion reactor we are trying to do inertial confinement meaning with the very powerful magnetic field we try to to con confine that very hot plasma so for me the Throne of Allah is something that created which is because before it's it's created its own magnetic field to confine the light that's coming from the from the colum and Allah where are you getting all this from it's from my own thought no but this is not look Islam is not Islam is not based on speculation what you're doing is speculating Allah's Throne wait wait Allah's Throne is not some ordinary Throne I agree with you I agree with you no but hold on what you're doing is before the universe was created all these physical laws did they apply absolutely not the laws of physics apply within the universe the throne was created before the universe yeah okay so you can't apply the law of I agree with you I wait wait even even scientifically speaking logically speaking the laws of physics didn't apply before the universe was existed in itself that came was before the universe yes the throne was created before the universe absolutely yes okay and so was the and so were the waters do you know that the waters are not the same as the waters you find as h what what what I'm saying is this that Allah commands the colum so no you're talking about electromagnetic fields you're talking about light you're talking about plasma come on brother think about it how do how do these things exist before the universe existed yeah yes what I'm saying is this there there was this because I I was just basing my argument based speculation your argument is brother brother look the prophet sallu alai wasallam said yeah Allah was and there was nothing yes then Allah created with his own hands he created the and created and say to the right and he's written everything from that time until the day of judgment yeah yeah so that means so so what about this light what you saying about the light and magnetic fields and that oh no brother just speculation bro we are not supposed to no no what I'm saying is that just one sec so it from the beginning until the end just I agree with you 100% so the entire beginning of the creation until the end was written meaning the entire universe was written by the colum that's what I'm saying there was no light there was no light coming out of the and making this there isn't that yeah yeah what I'm saying that when when the heavens and the Earth were were together for smoke yeah so this was before the creation of the universe that's what I just told you you cannot apply the laws of physics before the heavens and the Earth were formed no but when Hadith says that the Allah commanded Allah commanded the column to write from the beginning until the end of the creation so the beginning of the creation of the universe beginning of the creation of the universe this was 50,000 years before the creation do you know that 50,000 years before the creation of the universe yes yes okay okay so you need to take everything into, years 50,000 years it's not our years by the way could be even more than our 24-hour days in which you count 365 days in a year so you know the days in the um in the in sorry Beyond this one day could be a thousand years could be 5,000 years could be 50, years it is yeah what I'm was also what I'm trying to allude to the fact that Allah He commands so it's the command that's coming through the pen and that's creating everything is not coming through the pen didn't create brother you just made another mistake the pan didn't create yes Allah is the creator P just wrote Allah is the creator but it's it's you just said brother you just said the panc created without paying attention it was commanded through the pen that's what he said yeah but no brother way the pen itself is a creation do you know that yes yeah pen is the creation definitely but Allah commands the pen to write right to from the beginning until the end what said Allah through it's not what exactly are you trying to say brother Amed I'm trying to understand with all with all due respect um this is not the topic to discuss today because we are here with specific topic uh we can carry on another time inah okay okay I was just trying to understand myself but we can I okay I'm with you on patreon so I can ask you this myself in detail I think you should go and ask youra where are you are you based in Pakistan no no in Canada in Canada you got in Canada go and ask them these things yeah no problem yes okay okay thank you very much problem right so we finally got some Christians are you there anyway so when I run out toilet paper I use the even sometimes yeah one thing I wanted to mention was uh uh we we affirmed the meanings in the Quran and Sunnah we didn't delve into the one thing I wanted to mention was uh the modality or the Hess of a lot of the things that are mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah that have to do with stuff that's like outside of this universe one delving into it we will never understand if it was something to be understood then Allah or the prophet would have mentioned this in the Quran and Sunnah right um so yeah if Allah yeah if hasn't been if hasn't been mentioned we shouldn't delve into it one there's no um there's no bar behind it like there's Ibn Hazm's cat is ready to deal with Christian bots nothing to gain from it if there was some Bara behind it then it would have been mentioned right true yeah I think wants to ask a question we had a bot Christian coming coming um so you know what you need to let your cat um to deal with these Bots that comes to below the cat's dignity to deal with such dirt and well I I I think the cat is more knowledgeable than whoever is Subhan Allah the cats they worship Allah you know but you know Subhan Allah it shows you that they are hurting people don't come with these ban things but they are hurting they are hurting that's why and and by the way you know Sheldon and me we both asked him if he was a Christian and he said yes he's a Christian he's yes I've just seen it now I've just seen it now hi Sheldon how are you doing at least we know you you're safe you need to unmute yourself Sheldon oh looks like he's going to sleep as well right so are there no Christians out there come on guys be brave enough he's saying his microphone is not working I Sheldon let us know when your microphone is working right I don't have this other guy uh Ahmed in the back Studio can you tell us if you're a Muslim or non-muslim because many people come with Muslim names nowadays it's fashion fashion or desperation I don't know which one it is okay he's a Muslim right that was the name of the cut chck Daniel :: [[ is showing evidence of frustrating level of Christianity ]] right right Daniel you're next Quran is toilet paper he's another troll so basically right so this is the this is the level the Christians are going to you know they become trolls they're hurting they butt hurt you know desperate people really think Jesus is going to enjoy this yes if you're going to be a Christian act like one don't act like an antichrist there's no way Christ would have wanted you to behave right so I don't know if this Ahmed didn't didn't they call them dogs and and H yeah children of uh uh better not start yeah okay uh I don't know if Sheldon Sheldon is your microphone fixed looks like not yet okay so let's uh let him go because we're not going to entertain anymore yeah um so let's just um summarize so Mansur thanks, and gives advice to Deen far what we've done and then we'll probably end this stream soon then because there's no point going any further there was some Muslim who wanted to join earlier uh we told them to join later so if you guys want to join now uh you can do so inshallah yeah so I want to first of all uh you know thank and say Brother Dean response yeah um you know this it's it's time that you've come you come out in in in a public platform demonstrating the inadequacy uh the bankruptcy of other religious uh belief system and ideologies and establishing the the truthfulness of Islam and the the Divine authenticity why Islam is true so this is a a good step in the right direction um one of the few things that I want to just um you know because things are happening in public I will give you uh the advice to myself aan firstly and and to yourself and other young datat are listening inshallah it's just um we need to always remind ourself why we're doing this okay Point number one to not is we're doing this for sake of Allah subhana wa tala sincerely for his sake so sincerity is a key issue it is not there to make your name be famous be well known and you earn fame or money or incentives whatever might be this is only to please Allah subhana wa ta'ala you know doing your role your duty to to share the the light of Islam the truth of Islam to the others okay so sincerity is important so never ever feel the ego coming over you and overtaking you always have this ego in check like if sometimes it comes why you know people try to debate you and you know that this debate is fruitless worthless it's just meaningless don't go and debate just for no reason so you're not going to do that for for the sake of Subs subcribers and sake of views and something like this no it's not going to be this at all secondly um you know alhamdulillah Allah has uh endowed you bestowed you with knowledge and the the wish and the will to seeking knowledge which you are doing and alhamdulillah that's demonstrative of you know that Journey that you're taking about Islam so carry on doing that so that we can benefit from you okay so it's time for us to learn from you and yat like yourself okay so when it comes to say the subject matter you're discussing you're engaging with and so on you need to tone uh in the manner of with Islamic etiquet and adab and so on so in doing so you will come across um a lot of disagreements between Muslims and yourselves you need to you know make sure you understand the etics of eates of sorry and how we deal with it remember the the way our salaf and the kals how they disagreed with each other even though they had huge disagreements you know the two founders of of the you know think about how when they met each other how they interacted and so on this love and and the compassion that they have because they Muslims so you might know that that you know you disagree with them but the disagreement has to be done in this kind of uh manner because they are Muslims uh the people of Jenna so you have to really appreciate um who they are so when you are engaging with them and disagreeing with them um this is a reflection from the debate that you had um and and I think alhamdulillah you have spoken to the brother that you made comments on and you're now back in good terms understanding each other and and you know get things right inshallah if if there was any offense intended from your part you have uh shown uh you know where you have gone wrong for example and rectified it alhamdulillah for that so that's good the last slides you had like a cartoon-like thing so I think in academic type settings in the discussion and dialogue we need to not be in in in a in a way presenting ourself like like a tick tocker and so on but you know just leave these things course but the only reason yeah but of course the only reason why I did that is because uh um it's to match their energy right I wouldn't treat them academically if uh but you need to you need to this is what I'm saying um you know change that mind frame or or Paradigm just because they are remember what I said if a dog bites would you bite the dog of course not so we are going to go and level higher up because this is what was raised up he says okay on this nature to perfect the nobility of character we need to demonstrate this so there's no point you know showing these kind of things which some people might feel in a negative way you want to attract your audience and not have any scope in which there might be a possibility or a risk in which your audience you want to invite to Islam to they actually go away from it okay so these are this is uh the the general um feedback and message to myself first of all and to everyone in that case when it comes to um engaging um with people be selective okay you have your career this is not your career you're not a Tik tocker you're not a YouTuber you're not a what they call it um social media professional or something like this you are a Muslims and alhamdulillah you have I'm sure you have family and you have duty and you have obligation so you need to progress with your studies your your career your jobs and so on and you can still at the same time do the uh the activities inshah no problem so don't focus on this 247 or 257 giving you know an extra hour in a day just train too much um keep this you know not your primary role this is something that you can do side by side we can do da with our actions without even saying anything you know when people see how you know in your behavior in your adab in ecate you're truthful you're reliable you're trustworthy you're compassionate you're kind you're charitable that itself is D rather than telling people to behave like that yeah so carry on doing this and and um you know you've eye opened a lot of Muslims uh who underestimated our young duat so alhamdulillah with this Venture with this new emergence of our young duat we will see more of you and your team inshallah coming um in platforms and giving that so that in uh you know very near future we can relax and we can give it to you to Karan inshallah so I appreciate the advice yeah it's it was like my first debate my first time even on like a major platform actually discussing so I'll take the advice and try to be more conscious of my actions and try to uphold like like the best ER as possible and you have you have doneall you have done well alhamdulillah I would my advice to you Ibn Hazm Al Idrissi's advice to Deen would be equip yourself with more Islamic knowledge you know put that under the belt like read more into that especially when it comes to the and because some of them now they hover around theed issue com in with stuff like show me what ised like when we tell them we we put them on the back foot by telling them show us where Jesus has said I'm God worth ship me and uh and they they respond with the but Subhan Allah you you you try to get inshallah the Islamic Islamic teaching learn more into that and make this this kind of comparative relig religion study make that as a secondary thing first thing is to educate yourselves on the Islamic way and then insh that as a second thing that's my advice to youd and I do um I do actually go through some like stuff pertaining to a as well had to properly understand that's really good that's really very helpful and you will find it very helpful in your future Encounters inshallah of course of course before before anything as well like on your advice 100% like I did go into pmics prior to getting a proper understanding on AA and 100% um uh the brother mentioned this advice uh 100% I I agree someone has to be has to have foundational knowledge in before delving into any sort of things whether it be comparative religion or anything otherwise you're gonna have shaky foundations right absolutely all right so uh there's some people still in the chat but they don't want to come hey Tori we love you as well man come on show your love up here I don't know this guy this guy was saying that this guy where is the love man we inviting you and you're rejecting our invitation where is love Tori why are you not a Muslim yet exactly come come come let's have a talk come on yeah right don't vote for Tories yeah make sure it's labor or whoever it is right that was just a joke by the way um so we got uh Muhammad here I hope Mohammad [ Muslim - from Toronto, Canada ] :: asks if there are any dawah brothers in Toronto, Canada he's genuine not on leral oh sorry so I I am actually in Canada so uh is there any brothers like uh doing this dawa work in Canada bro Canada is like a entire continent where in Canada are you in Toronto in Toronto yeah there are I mean you got brother Sadat over there brother AAS the triny uh Mah quite a few dawa you know Brothers there alhamdulillah so have you been to the dunda square in Toronto yeah yeah yeah yeah so you'll find I think they go I don't know if every Saturday or Sunday so they are definitely there so this brother is called that Canadian brother his channel so get in touch with Brother s in okay yeah all right so why you want to get into is there any particular reason uh not really I just want to meet up you know oh you just want to meet Muslims go to the Mas then yeah yeah okay okay okay no problem brother take care in sh um if you guys don't mind I wanted to share this as well like it's good to have an understanding of like the p writings on these verses before bringing them up just in case they give you like some unprecedented interpretation um yeah so if we just look at this okay so this is like a commentary Deen shares St. Jerome's commentary for Matthew 23:3, and discusses on on Matthew 23 by by St Jerome um he says so he talks about um what Matthew 23 actually means which one is it the left or the right oh to the right right do you want to zoom into that please yeah yeah I'm not entirely sure how to do that uh is that a PDF what is it no it's a it's a website yeah you can you can just move your mouse to the I don't know should be easy but anyway um is that is is that good enough yeah just be on this right section right so what Drome says is um he he is tempted by the Pharisees and surrounded by their lies according to the psalmist so he quotes the Psalms uh the errors of children are their snares nevertheless on account of the Dignity of the priests and the reputation he encourages the people to obey them considering not their works but their teaching what he says is this the scribes and Pharisees sit upon the throne of Moses that's verse Two showing this as a throne of teaching about the law and we ought to accept this because what it said in the Psalms and he quotes the Psalms right so he's saying what does he mean by um they sit on the throne of Moses well it means that they have the authority to teach the law because I saw some people trying to cope with my argument and say well there's um there's an exact stipulation of when you're meant to listen to them and it's when they sit on the throne of Moses so it's like con contingent thing right but obviously it's not they um Jesus doesn't say they sit on the throne of Moses at certain point in times he says it's very clear they sit on Throne the Throne of Moses generally because they have it's on their account of their dignity and their reputation and they always have their uh dignity as being priests and being reputable right so it's this is like an absurd interpretation it contradicts what Jerome is saying but as well even if we were to accept their interpretation and we don't uh take Jerome's interpretation who's accepted both by the Orthodox and the Catholics um even if we were to accept that uh if they're going to say that Jesus makes it contingent on when to listen to the Pharisees then sure then uh he makes it contingent upon like when they specifically when they s on the throne of Moses well the Quran makes a contingent on when it's affirming the Bible it makes it clear it's the four it's the M right so if you're going to play that game we can we can do the same thing right just be consistent mallah I don't know I don't know if you want to like if you don't have to end the stream now but I think I'm gonna have to leave oh is it okay uh that's fine brother just before you go because Deen briefly introduces himself [[ reverted from Shi'a Islam three years back ; living in Sydney, Australia ]] , and his concluding words for the time being we haven't had a proper introduction of yourself so maybe you could just uh you know share a brief intro so the audience may know who Dean response is inshallah of course so um I'm a 22-year-old Sunni Muslim reverted from Shia Islam about three years ago uh I I grew up yeah I I grew up sh um and later I found myself converting to Sunni Islam alhamdulillah and I began and prior to that i r had knowledge rarely even applied like the religion I grew up in but later on alhamdulillah um after becoming Sly became more religious and I had like more questions on okay like if I was wrong on what I grew up in in terms of the Shia and stuff like that like okay maybe I should uh delve into other religions and say okay possibly Islam generally maybe I should critique uh maybe there's a position outside of Islam that is true so I did some self-reflection on that and what I came to the conclusion of is the most rational the most intuitive and the most natural position is uh the type of that's presented in um Sunni Islam as well as uh what the Quran presents and Sun of the Prophet this is like the most consistent and um most rational message uh on the belief of God and the belief of the prophets and and so on uh yeah so that's what led me into like mix field and uh deal dealing with like um Christians and atheists and so on while also researching into uh Islam itself uh led me into like the pics field and yeah I I then I decided to like delve into social media like YouTube and Tik Tok and I saw that there was like um a bit of a gap in terms of uh what needs to be expressed the in the da field so that's what led me to making it and uh that's what obviously made me go into making response videos I never intended to become a debater I never intended on becoming like someone that engaged in these things like anytime soon like I only recently turned 22 but uh obviously if there is conditions where I see benefit and I see that there's going to be a case where I can go ahead and debate I'm G to do so but I don't intend on being a debater I intend on um preaching like the giving da inviting people to the Quran and the Sunnah and the way of the Sal and and getting people back into um yeah I I don't intend on anyone that knows me uh when I do engage a lot of time it's respectful and a lot of the time just intellectual like rational responses U but alhamdulillah yeah um uh in terms of in Terms in terms of my channel as well you can expect uh responses in terms of criticisms uh to the uh responses to uh you know Christian critiques or general critiques itself and also making positive cases uh for Islam um and yeah if you uh I'm going to continue and try try my best like to stay on the straight path yeah Allah Allah keep you steadfast inshallah may Allah preserve you and guide you and increase you in knowledge inshallah am me and uh if it's uh I mean this is entirely up to you if you want to reveal it whereabouts are you from De where are you best yeah so I'm I'm based in Sydney Australia okay all right so yeah no wonder you went to sleep and our our stream was due because it was like 2: a.m. at your place isn't it yeah that's right that's right um no problem yes I had just W the only reason why I woke up is because it was I'm for fure yes yes alhamdulillah uh yeah normally you know for people in Australia New Zealand this the timing is a main issue so I remember we when we had Samuel green on our channel uh I think in the early days when we started our Channel dwise um we invited him and uh we had to actually arrange it on a Saturday uh in the morning here when it'll be convenient for him to join us uh but normally for us the weekends are quite quite busy so we try to keep it on Thursday evenings um and yeah you're welcome anytime bro inah if you want to discuss any specific topic not necessarily your debate reviews um uh you're more than welcome you know we invite brother brother Ibrahim inshah next uh next Thursday most likely we'll be doing God in the talmud uh as a topic uh so I don't know if you're interested in that topic you're more than welcome to join us if you are do let me know and uh yeah just here for your contribution and uh well done in the debate for your first debate I would say it's really really great much you have uh conducted professionally and done your research thoroughly unlike unlike your opponent Chris so yeah I mean congratulations on that and may Allah give you many more victories to come in the future am me and yeah I don't know um maybe you come down to UK come down to speaker Corner uh one day we meet in person inshah inah inah and yeah in that'll be the case in in the near future inshah but uh yeah another point I want to say was actually um uh like you guys like you brothers and da wise like the brothers in NE dawa and and a lot of the other brothers like on the YouTube scene uh like you guys also were main inspiration in terms of uh me getting myself into pmics as well and getting into uh giving daa so I would say also like um even if it's the case that the younger generation have sort of knowledge that they got to share with you it it does actually a lot of it Source comes from you guys so alhamdulillah like for your guys's work that inspires others to get into other fields and that has this like chain reaction of uh you know benefiting each other you know ald except from us all um so brothers and sisters please do subscribe to Brother Dean response channel uh it's on the screen so it's just one word Dean response if you search for it on YouTube inshallah you'll get it brother Dean so yeah I mean feel free to ask any questions or you know if you got any points you want to discuss on the panel next time um you'll be more than welcome inshallah so take care and uh I know it's quite early still there um hopefully we'll see you again shortly alhamdulillah good brother right so we got your two sonaton here Shake I'm gonna Keshav [ Hindu - from Florida, USA ] :: asks (a) what Muslims mean by the Qur'an being preserved, and why it is so important for Islam ; (b) if hadiths explain every verse of the Qur'an ; (c) for explanation of Surah 79:30 take tomorrow okay take is happy he's got it all to himself sh hello K how are you doing well sir are you yeah not bad thank you thank you you made his day man what you made his day he said I want to speak to some s today oh I'm so glad I love I love to see you smile sh I love your smile you you have such a pleasant smile thank you thank you alhamdulillah so when is the day when is the day when I'm gonna teach you the shahada did oh boy already knows it he just needs to yeah that's what I mean that's what I mean come to the Brotherhood of Islam come to the Brotherhood of Islam you will you you will win the duny you will win this life and the Hereafter both would like to see would like to have you as a brother I I am your brother whether I'm I'm your brother from other mother I would much rather be sort of a polite Sani for a while but you know I love you guys never nevertheless no matter what religion I follow and no matter what religion you follow you guys are hard working and people but but we what what what we say to you because because we want the best for you and and uh you know we wouldn't have invited you otherwise if it wasn't the best I appreciate that I appreciate I know I know you kha what's what's on your mind today was there something specific you wanted to discuss uh there was I mean so the question I had was um why do you feel that Quran is preser no what do you mean when you say Quran is preserved sorry I have my cat here walking all over my computer I apologize um what do you mean when you say Quran is preserved and why is that so important for Islam well obviously we uh we as Muslims know that the Quran is a revelation from Allah and it's the final Revelation and in fact Allah himself says is preserved so it's not we are saying it's preserved Allah says he's the one who's going to preserve it and he's going to you know until until he decides until the end times when he decides until then he's going to remain preserved and because the previous Revelations as we have seen from history they have all gradually been corrupted over time and because the Quran is the last message Allah has guaranteed his preservation yes in the Quran Allah says that it is we who have sent down the which is the Quran and it is we who will preserve it so he himself guaranteed the preservation and for us it's important because there's going to be no more Prophet or messenger after Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him he's the lost and the final messenger and you know before when the message got corrupted the previous Messengers uh message got corrupted there was always a messenger after them who would actually Rectify or he would actually give the actual message of uh or the actual Revelation uh of God Almighty that way there was always an updated message from Allah subhana wa ta'ala in terms of the Revelation but because the Quran is the last and the final me message from the uh given to the last messenger Prophet Muhammad sallallah Ali wasallam hence it has to be preserved uh because there's going to be no more prophets after and also and also because the Quran is a miracle in itself so Allah because Muhammad s alai was had had so many miracles but one of the the best Miracles is the Quran it's Allah it's Allah's words and unaltered and is the only one is the only one which Allah have taken uh have uh have decided to preserve it all the others like brother Hashim has said have been have been uh altered have been corrupted dist disturbed by by the O by uh so-called followers but the Quran it's the same uh everywhere I mean the way you recite now Ibrahim joins again you recite now uh in China it's the same way it's recited in uh in Japan in everywhere yeah actually it's strange you talk about China because there was actually what I was going at because isn't it like isn't China looking I don't know if that is true or not but I don't know what you guys think China is looking to change Quran to more just look I think there was a news long time back I don't know if that's a true news or not yeah that's every news is a True News you know what I mean so uh sorry what what did he what did you say about China I I didn't catch that so China is what they the news that I read was they are changing the Quran to make it more confucious uh oh China is not the only first one to try a lot of people tried that but you see the good thing about the Quran is millions of people have memorized it so even our children will be able to identify if there's any change in the Quran alhamdulillah and this is something you don't find in any other scripture uh which claims to be from God the Quran is unique in this that even people whose first language is not Arabic they memorize it and it's easy for them to memorize as well and this is also confirmed in the Quran it's easy to remember it's not like yeah it's not like uh you know China is gonna let's say they do edit the Quran and they put out some edited copy it's not like Muslims are going to like oh no they're two Quran so they're going to be confused like everyone's going to know okay that's a fake version like the the Quran being preserve doesn't mean that someone can't write a CO like a a manuscript or a copy and change a couple words that you know like if I wanted I could write right now on a paper and then just change a couple words that that doesn't mean the Quran is not preserved anymore or I could pronounce it wrong like I could say that's wrong that's not the Ayah so the Quran yeah the Quran being preserved doesn't mean someone canot intentionally write it wrong and pronounce it wrong what it means is that the you know that's not going to come to anything people aren't going to be like oh no what is the Quran we're always going to have the actual Quran and we're going to know that's the Quran because in terms of like changing the words even early people did that like they changed they tried to change that so that it didn't say Allah spoke to Moses but it didn't work we all know now we all know everyone knows and everyone's always know that the Ayah is that Allah spoke to Moses yeah got so what you're saying is uh when you mean that Allah is going to preserve Quran you mean there is going to be one authentic copy of Quran that most Muslims are going to gravitate towards vers most Muslims all Muslims all Muslims so it's it's a Divine protection for the Quran doesn't matter what people try to do how they try to change it uh the Quran will remain intact and we have seen this you know look around the world you go any corner of the world uh and you ask someone to recite the Quran and then you go to another corner of the world and you ask them to recite the Quran and they'll be identical and this will be from memory and this shows that the Quran is unique in it in it in terms of its preservation you know which like I said most people who have memorized it are non-arabs majority of the people memorized it today or non-arabs uh this is is phenomenal compare this to the vas for example you know that 94% or more than 90% of The Vedas are lost did you know that no but I I believe that's probably you're right this is not coming from me this is uh uh you know we were kananda who actually uh made this uh he actually researched it and he observed that most of it is actually lost and even what we have today is something that they cannot verify is authenticity true but I think yeah yeah so the same thing with Bible suffered the same thing the Old Testament also suffered the same thing you know we know that over time things do get corrupted in fact the Bible doesn't even have its original language in which it was revealed uh it's in Greek and we know that uh Jesus was not teaching his disciples in Greek because they were not Greek they were mostly Hebrews they were Israelites um and with regards to Moses's uh revelation we have a gap of more than 1200 to 14400 years between Moses and the earliest extent manuscript of the Old Testament so if you look at all the books today from all the ones that claim to be from God the Quran stands shoulders above head and shoulders above any of the other scriptures which claims to be divine but is it just the word that you are claiming that is preserved or is it also the meaning of the verses that is preserved as well both because yeah go on Abraham here yeah just both cuz we have we have the earliest interpretations of the Quran we have them recorded so you'll be able to find the prophet himself peace be upon Him explaining some of the verses of the Quran but also sahab like and abas and yeah and then so the preser as you know you know we have a we have a chain of narration for theth and even though they were compiled later on some of them within 100 years some of them much later like the bukari and the Muslim compilation but that doesn't mean that they were not uh committed to memory just like the Quran was yeah and we can actually trace it back all the way to the prophet B be upon him there's actually something called the science ofth which is quite I would say robust in the sense of preservation and making sure that whatever is narrated from the companions reaches us um basically unaltered all the way uh to the prophet B be upon him we have something called which actually is kind of a biography of each um companion who actually narrated it or the tabin or or the people who you know all the people in the chain of narration so the scholars can use that to identify okay whether this person deliberately used to lie and make up things or this other person used to forget uh you know his memory wasn't that good and he makes mistakes they would use this science to then identify whether any member within the chain of narration is a weak chain and then they would consider that to be either weak or fabricated or you know uh depending on the categorization so we don't just accept all the Hadith as being authentic there's the entire process which takes place to identify the authentic for the from the unauthentic okay so the explanation of the Quran um to the companions because the companions ask about specific verses of the Quran what do does this mean uh what what what what does this Ayah mean what is the history behind this particular thing you know they would actually get the response directly from the prophet peace be upon him and he's the one who is in touch with almighty God gota so so the Hadith explains every verse uh that is in Quran because obviously the verse is no no no the Hadith does not explain every verse but some some some had do explain or they are in line with some verses of the Quran okay so just some verses yes and and also also the comes for example like Allah speaks about prayers and then we'll have the Hadi explaining to us the mode of prayer for example it will talks about charity a Hadith will explain to us about the charity you see what I mean so so basically what you have got the Hadith complements the Quran yeah it expounds right it kind of gives more DET yes that's true so I think I saw one which was kind of I I don't know if there is a two different interpretation of that Surah or uh or it's just the same thing but just uh read it differently but you know which one is this uh like the book 70 uh um Surah 30 that after the uh and after that he spread the Earth you guys know about this one right like the ostrich egg one where the shape of the Earth or whatever yeah yeah is that is that resolved among Muslims or is there a two opinions of what that verse means no the verse is clearly what it means there isn't two opinions it's one opinion about that verse it means what what you just said like the ostrich egg well it's not the ostrich egg actually it's the it's it's the it's the way you know because the ostrich when it we lays the egg it lays it on on top of the sand and then when it sits on it when it sits on it happens oops what happened Shake press the button uh did we lose it maybe it's a connection thing yeah so I I don't know because I've I've heard some uh like Muslim Scholars say that verse means that Earth is flat some means that it means round some say that that verse means neither flat nor round it is not related to the shape at all it's just general that the Earth is spread what what it just means like that the land is spread out like if you go outside you see the land it's like this right yeah it's not like this so you can walk easily you have big PLS and that's all it means so it doesn't address the shape of the earth like I know what's or somebody said that that verse means the Earth is round but doesn't I don't agree with that I think no the one about the Earth being spread out is like brother Ibrahim said you know it's it's you're talking about the spread out of the top layer for example so if I were ask you to spread out a carpet across the globe would your carpet be flat or curved flat exactly that's what it means so it's not talking about the shape of there it's just just it's a poetic expression of like the Earth is it's how you normally perceive the land isn't it it's flat it's not the shape of the globe itself so it neither says the Earth is flat or it neither says the Earth is round it just says Earth is spread no he's saying the top layer is flat so your your ground if I were to ask you is the ground flat or curved flat there you go so it's talking about the ground it's not talking about the globe as such you know the Muslims were some of the best Navigators for a long time before the Europeans even invented their uh gravit sorry their navigation devices yeah I've heard that you think they'll be able to navigate across the globe if the Earth was just flat yeah no no I think I I I'm sure that you know I I know lot of Iranian uh I think I forgot the name of people and Arabs as well um lot of our stars and constellation have got Arab names so yeah because they were good astronomers just like the the Indians were back then uh they were very good in calculations and that's how they would calculate even precisely the direction of kiah you know from whichever location they went to so they had invented a lot of tools uh and uh in order for them to make this navigation and make uh calculation of directions easier for them Goa yeah um anyway I've seen I don't know why most of the time the Hindus bring up this question about the Quran teaches that the Earth is flat based on this aah based on their misinterpretation of this particular a yeah I was I was I was more like I I didn't have I didn't have one like I I don't know I'm not saying that Quran says it's flat or not I'm just saying that some uh preachers Muslim preachers says it is flat some preachers say it is round and some preachers says it doesn't say either so I didn't know which one was true yeah so it depends on the aah you're reading like I said the Ayah about the Earth being spread out it's about the ground not about the globe so if you if you read one eye and then try to interpret the other parts with that it's not is taking out of context so when you decontextualize things then there is misinterpretation there's misinformation okay understood all right got any other questions you want to discuss that's all I have today I have couple of more but I'll let other people go uh all right okay no problem you take care always a pleasure have a good night have a good weekend all right we got to by here I think he or she wanted to ask a question Tugba [ Muslimah ] :: [[ discusses the reliability of the ashaba (RA), authenticity of the Qur'an ]] to by you there yeah yes asalam alaykum can you hear me yes we can hear you yeah uh right I actually have sent you an email previously um it's just in regards to the same questions I had uh come to ask on the panel before um it was quite a lengthy email and I just tried my best to share whatever confusion I had in it I'm not sure if you received that or not oh yeah that was a while back yeah I remember now okay yeah so just you know just uh refresh my memory what the question was yeah so it was like the and the Quran okay yes it's about it's about the the authenticity of the Quran I see okay so did you get an answer or not sister no actually I waited for a reply uh from uh you but um I didn't get I think I did if I remember correctly I did forward sh Ham's email address to you oh okay I I didn't know I sent the email to the the dawa team email that shared yeah uh you know write write to me with the with that because I rather will discuss it privately than uh yeah so I will send you um sh Iam's email address if you just send uh send it again because I'm pretty sure I sent it to you but maybe it's missed out somewhere so if you email dawi gmail.com I'll make sure she contact us with you inshallah all right yeah is we'll have we'll have all your things answered there is an answer to everything don't worry can I just say a couple things about the the question she asked in the chat yeah go ahead yeah so a couple things first of all um you you have to ask what is our standard to decide if something is historically reliable if we're going to take something as history if you have the actual eyewitnesses telling you this is what a person says then that should be a reliable testimony and that should be accepted if one Rejects this premise that we're going to take eyewitnesses then at that point like you you can't accept any history yeah so if some uh so when we have the sahaba is not even it's not even one sahaba it's many testifying to who the prophet is or what the Quran is that should be taken if we doubt that then at that point you know you're not you can't do any history so for example because like sorry can I ask in that point in specific because now the issue like even if we are to accept uh history like I'm not going to address the facts that history is biased and like for example every sect and every you know type of of group of individuals they have their own history about this exact same events that happened in the past but let's just take our own history that we accept and we believe in we h T take and we accept that through our history not every single Muslim was present during the compilation of the Quran there were just a few of the sahaba who were present and we actually rely on their trustworthiness basically to accept that every single word that was in the Quran is divine without any cropping or any additions and cropping and additions don't always result into contradictions okay don't always but but the point I'm trying to make is even if we disregard like the reliability of the sahab and stuff just generally when we're doing history the best case scenar you can get is an eyewitness yeah you can't go beyond that I mean the only way beyond that would be to have an autograph like where the author himself and you find the literal copy that the author himself wrote which is never going to happen yes that that is a very good point yes yes so that's why when for example people criticize the gospels what do they say they say these are not actually from the disciples right they say that you know we don't know who Matthew Mark Luke and John are these are actually Anonymous gospels Etc and the Christians try and say no they are from disciples but we all agree if they were actually from disciples we would accept them as reliable history right because if you get something from the disciples the actual followers of Jesus the direct people that's the strongest evidence you can get from a historical perspective right yes but we do put some some conditions into accepting the testimony when it comes to religion you see I it has to about how history can even be done yeah and and that all and that happen and all of that happened in the Quran that every person that that bought that brought a parchment or anything with something of the Quran written on it he had to bring two witnesses eyewitnesses that they would have witnessed they would have bore testimony to that that person uh wrote it directly from the mouth of the Prophet sallallah alaihi wasallam when he was telling him so to have to have this amount of people being eyewitnesses to such a degree it's not an easy task yeah and so if we can establish that it goes back to the sahabah then at that point already we've established this the highest level of reliabil authenticity we can even have you can't ask for more you know we accept historical material from much weaker evidence but this is the highest great now the second thing is it's not just a few sahaba who learned the Quran from the prophet it's many uh now of course different chapters have more or less Witnesses for example F will have the most Witnesses but overall there are there were a bunch of sahab and uh wasn't it that in one of the battles uh 17 when they were fighting the mad 70 of the best of the best hu were killed in the were martyred in the in that so hence turned into abak and he said to him that we need to do something with the Quran and because because I see that the the Learned sahaba are being mared one after the other and that shows you the fact that there were 70 who were murdered and they still had other huas left shows you it's not a small amount so if there are a bunch of if sorry I get that point but when we bring in the issue of and we are aware through our own history and again I'm not addressing the facts that there are [Music] other narratives about history depending on on on whatever or whatever all different events in history they they they bringing their own narrative through it but I'm not going to discuss that no look sister don't say that we have a different Quran now the J don't say we have gotten a different Quran the Shia except except except certain Elements which you can count them on the tips of your finger none of them say that the Quran is forged all the sects that did happen in Islam none of them none of them ever said that the Quran that we have at our disposal now is is is different from that of Muhammad Sall alai wasallam yeah and you would expect you would expect that if the sahaba were editing stuff that we would have some report of them of someone being like what are you doing you forgot these ayats look I have a different are we to believe that all the sahaba just like agreed you know the prophet we believed in and did Wars with and all sacrifice and hij and all you know what who cares let's just change the Quran and no one was like would that not be an element of authority because let's imagine the situation we've got we've got zit got we've got the committee the head of the sahab right and they are gathered they are doing a certain process and like with all due respect you the way I imagine it like if anyone gets to talk after that that meeting is dissolved like and that agreement is done like I understand this is the Quran it's the scripture and so on you understand like they're not going to be playing around and so on what's the worst have the issue of Sister Sister the the there is no issue of the first of all no there is a b a big difference what is the is it the dialects is it the recitations is it is it is it so but what we go by like we say by the dialects and I think I said this to you in last time we spoke for example that's the language of the Arab for example in in reciting Al fa we'll find seven different types of recitations for example stars then we move to with then with sin and then a with and all all three all of them mean the same thing then we come to then there is a recitation in here have just given you seven different notes modes of reciting Al okay the opening and all of them are from wasam and all of them are correct and that's the language of the Arab now when you say to anab he will understand it you say he will understand it you say he will understand it you say he will understand it too so there is no there is no kind of problem in there yeah I get it like when I bring it up the the the sister just just one second when you read the Quran which K do you read I depending on the mus I have uh mostly is okay do you have any doubt in the H Kat no as like as I said like um here like my issue my shha is in regards to the Quran as a whole no but K so I want to ask you do you have any doubt in the mus that you read like I'm I don't know how to I couldn't understand your question so I can answer it properly you read the Quran right in h because you can clearly see issue so no no you you do read the Quran right yeah yeah I do I do yeah and you read the H Kat right yeah I do okay do you have any doubt in the h kirat like this is what I'm trying to ask that this is the I have I want to know from you whether you have a doubt or not because then we can proceed because if you have a doubt then we want to understand which specific doubt you have yeah because it looks like you you you have Shah there's no doubt about it right but you're just not certain exactly what it is because all the asaba for the LA and the Muslims for last 14400 years if they have already affirmed the different K and this is the something that is mut as well it's been uh you know come to us all this time from 1400 years you sitting in 2024 and asking this implies that this Muslim Scholars they had no clue what they were doing this is with you in particular this is not something that the Muslims face and maybe maybe your sh you are unable to express it in a way because if I when I ask you are not even giving the answer to me is the K that you read the the M that you read do you have any doubt in it when I bring out the like just as an answer to your question when I bring out the issue of the right and my question wasn't about the see once again you're evading the question I'm asking you I'm asking about just one Kat do you have any doubt in that of of course I I have questions about it of course yes this is why what is your question about the H well I like this is what I'm saying like how do we know that there were no alterations this is my question like you do have with when you when you say alterations wait a minute wait a minute sister look I've already explained to you we have an entire body of Scholars uh the the all the way to the Companions and the prophet peace be upon him did uh have you read any books on this topic by the way yeah I tried to do research on my own but I just realiz read any books any specific books on this particular topic uh yes I read the book which Quran I actually have it here in my library you read Arabic right sister sorry you read Arabic right I do read Arabic yeah I have you read any books by Arab Scholars on this particular topic well I am trying to do my research through whatever I can find uh online and uh in the library so yeah so have you read any books have you come across any books by Arab Scholars on this topic no I don't think I read any about from maybe that is the first thing you need to do because what you what it seems like you're just fishing from the internet okay because there are experts who have written books on this topic and you books maybe they will be able to explain to you summarize the issue no no this is not how it works the research because of your your what do you say shath you need to go to the experts who have written books on this topic because it looks like you know when somebody's doing research and they haven't looked at the the the experts in this topic then you haven't done your research thoroughly going to different brother the books go to different streams what you're doing is you're causing more Shar than other people have you realized that yeah oh I'm sorry about that but I just was no you don't have to tell me sorry about that you do your research thoroughly from the books of the experts on this topic then inshah your shahad will be settled but you haven't done any research you haven't you haven't given me a single scholarly work that you have read on this topic well I've watched hundred of videos and I'm just getting more confused watch when I do when I do research we not experts look with all due respect we are not experts read the books of the experts who have explained this and especially if you know Arabic there's no excuse W there's no excuse because the Arabic books brother they start with the given faith that the sahab are reliable that's where they start from Sister Sister you know you know you know you know how you know you know what's you know you are really trading on a very on very th thin eyes you know you you what you saying I'm not saying you're you you're a disbeliever but what you saying is is actually you flirting with they are not reliable you know you is not like sorry to just explain this I I can hand I am aware that this is this is a very fine line to that's very clear clear to me this is why I'm trying to reach out yeah but I just I just explaining to you explaining to you and and and you keep like bringing the I've just explained to you about the the thing in in like in a brief way and to be honest with you write write to me inshallah and I will answer your questions I don't think look there are lots of kind of lay people that don't understand and I don't want people to end up with with I just want to ask her one last Toba what is your criteria for a historical report for you to accept it sorry could you repeat that what is your criteria for a historical report for you to consider it acceptable that's a very good question um exactly so that's the the issue I have basically you understand do she doesn't shees yeah that's the issue I have like I don't know Sister he's asking you the criteria has she hasn't got one she hasn't got one Hashim talk about anything from ancient history like yeah Alexander or Rome or all the stuff we know about ancient history I mean I'm assuming you AC accept this basic history what is your criteria for accepting a historical report yes so for me I was asking this question before and I thought like there must be a difference between uh Duna history and religious history you see so the requirements that I put forward on the standards that I put forward to accept reports about Duna worldly worldly history like are very low like because those things are not going to affect any they're not going to to take me to hell what you applied the same standard you apply to religious history religious history my question I'm saying let's say you applied the religious history standard to everything yes what would you accept from history so like so what I learned is that the person has to be trustworthy and honest you see can you give me an ex yeah I okay I understand can you give me an example of a historical report you would accept no just let me just elaborate please so the isue I have with those conditions that we actually have studied and and we hear all the time in Islamic Studies and so on that the person has to be reliable trustworthy and so on and honest but how do we verify these conditions this is the question biography example of a historical report an ancient historical report that meets your standard the religious standard can you give me an example of a historical report that meets your standard for religion ancient history I don't know okay you see the problem sister do you consider testimony as valid I do consider test I work in my daily life I do use testimony and I accept that right okay so you trust my question is how do we verify like ancient testimony because today for example if I go and ask for example about surgery let's say per say example and I ask like five people 10 people and they all give me good reviews I trust them I'll take their word for it and how many people sister hang on H on Hashim hang on sorry Hashim hang on sister would you would you accept the word of Allah yes of course if it's proven Allah says okay so in here Allah is so pleased with those Believers which is the sah who were giving to the prophet sallallah alaihi wasallam and Allah knows what in their heart so if you doubt them you doubt in Allah but we have to prove that Allah said that because they reported that Toba you see the issue is that you don't you what you need to study is as hash mentioned you need to study first of all books on the quranic history stuff like the manuscripts of the Quran as well okay there are Arabic books on that videos you said you listen to 100 videos won't teach you anything okay for actual research you need to go to books videos are useless the videos are very basic shallow level yeah the second thing is you need to research uh the criteria for accepting historical reports because different historians have different uh criterias and not all the criterias agree so you need to research more into that into knowing how we know that certain historical reports are acceptable because if we apply your criteria consistently Not only would you have to reject the majority of history but you'd also have to for example reject science because you'd be like well this uh this scientific study or let's say I have a scientific textbook I'd say well I'd never met the author and uh I don't know what the studies are and let me go to the journal I'll read the study for the scientific study but how do I know they're not making it up how do I know they're you understand so this criteria would rule out every piece of knowledge it's too hyper skeptic and it doesn't make any sense it's frankly absurd so the two home homeworks you have to do or read books on the history of the Quran including the manuscripts because we have early manuscripts which really finishes the argument and second you need to figure out the criteria for historical reports because right now your criteria is just absurd and no one accepts this criteria it's she doesn't have a criteria yeah that's the thing yeah exactly that's true issue the reason I I don't have a criteria look into what historians take as their criteria for accepting historical reports because you need to go into that epistemology of yeah I think this this this particular Point uh like um is an eye opener and is um actually something I have to look into and uh like contemplate on this detail in specific of do that and then you'll email the if you read that book it might be helpful to you is called the history of the quranic text from Revelation to preservation by Muhammad it's a very good book in English and it's available on Amazon I mean lots of other places as well yeah for the probably I would be able to like have like a conversation with the the team on the details of like um uh like this uh you know the skepticism and how to uh like look into it in a way that would uh like obviously make us avoid it to the point of falling into these kind of uh you know pits and so on but um like for me it was like just the facts that we we claim that we have we have reliable and honest um you know whatever kind of individuals like the sahaba and so on that's why we rely on them it's just like the testimony you can't verify that it's like the testimony you believe in for example if I were to ask you are your parents really your parents have you done a DNA test or you based on testimony so the issue I have with this examples is that's that that doesn't create the same result as disbelief in the Quran why not because you said you you said you need proof yes but people people when you go based on testimony only without any evidence other than just their Word of Mouth then could it be possible that there was a conspiracy to make you believe that you're somebody else's daughter but then they made you believe that you're their daughter could that be possible because if I have were high skeptical I would be doubting even my own parents my own I don't have a reason to doubt that because I'm happy I'm within my family when these kind of issues raised people have skepticism about them it sounds like you're skeptic you're being skeptic to justify some emotional problem with Islam that that's what you just said you know if you can trust your parents and your family and the people around you yes just based on their Word of Mouth then why are you going to doubt the companions yeah Toba think about it imagine the people who met Alexander the Great who lived with him who ate with him like let's say 18 of them come on the stream and they tell you who Alexander the Great was and then you walk away like I have no idea who Alexander was maybe they were lying and then the next day all 12 disciples of Jesus they show up to your house and they tell you the story of Jesus then they leave and you're like man they could be making this all up I don't trust them and then the next day all the sahaba come and they tell you who the prophet is and then you walk away like they could be lying and then the next day Moses himself comes to you and he tells you who I am and stuff and then he leaves and you're like well maybe it's a dream or you know maybe that wasn't Moses that was just a guy pretending to be Moses well like this is Ridiculousness the thing is if you if you base everything on just proof you know heart evidence then your daily life would be impossible I mean imagine you going to the doctor and saying I don't believe you're a doctor show me your credentials yes you're you're on uh basically maybe you know in the A&E bleeding to death are you going to tell him show me your credentials are you going to say say I trust you I trust the hospital yes go and operate on me yes same thing with with your daily life for example you go to the shops you buy stuff how do you know they haven't actually mixed some poison in it or mix something which is uh not real something which is fake and they're giving it to you it might be harmful to your health yeah this is to do you need to put your trust in people put your trust in the you know I don't think all the in the world are conspiring to give you a false Quran and and then no report has survived of like this other alternative Quran no s they all you know and she's like you know you said that well if they went against Omar they could be killed or whatever but even the risk of being killed that wasn't a problem for people who fought battles yeah so you think they fought battles for Islam but then they're scared of they wouldn't know if they tell them that these little bits that we added are she to that's not works sister forget about let's say if there were no there were no Kat there was only one Kat and that's it how would then you trust the Quran let's see because I want to find out what your problem really is and I don't think it's and if there was only one Kat and all the in there then what would be your problem would you still trust a Quran or would you still deny it silence and the other thing is if you want to claim that someone said this is so then we would have claims like oh yeah we have a reading of a certain Ayah uh which doesn't have the part that the sahab are good and then you have an other that says the sah are good you know like the recited the so you would have an eye of it which just says you know below the tree this that happen no but brother brother ibraim look there is even something which is even more more complicated you know the diacriticals they were with Ali that they were very late the diacriticals so the sahaba read they were reading it reciting it without the diacriticals and they understood it and it didn't change so for example let me give you an example for example it starts with yeah why is not why is not why is it not you understand yeah by the way s sister if I were to ask you do you believe in God and if you do what's your proof again silence did D deduction is through deduction what you mean deduction that's not proof um well most most a scientists they believe deduction they believe induction they believe but they don't believe in God so why would deduction make you believe in god um because there are things that are impossible in in reality yeah but how do you know your mind isn't playing tricks on you yeah how do you know you're not a brain in a jar and somebody's um you know controlling everything around you and you think you're in a real world how do you know you even exist well I didn't get to there well those are issues I don't have but the point we're making is what you're doing is exactly what atheists do yeah when atheists come when it comes to the topic of God they become hyper like what if I what if we're in The Matrix and all this stuff and then for me it's just the fact that we say we say sorry to cut you off for me it's just the fact we say there are conditions for us to accept the word of the mouth of a man right which is honesty and reliability my question you actually don't even Prophet no no not talking I believe in the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam the reason I do if you believe in the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam we are telling you that the Quran that we have now is from him is first of all it's from Allah through jel so I mean the question the question you should ask how can we trust jel how can we trust him no sorry that's not the issue I have the issue is your misunderstanding saying that there is no Divine something you're misunderstanding I'm saying whether or not it's preserved listen the the whole thing about checking people's reliability that doesn't apply for something that's mut anyway you don't need to check people's reliabil reliability for man Mass transmitted stuff that's why for example maybe that's the issue do you know what is mut sister yeah mass transmiss mass transmission but how does it work how does mass transmission work I'll give you actually a very good video which I want you to watch maybe it might help you you know I don't know it's only a 10minute video so we can watch it to go is an defined number sure the Quran we have today is the same Quran that the prophet Muhammad taught to his companions over 1,400 years ago this question is Central to the legitimacy of the religion of Islam and to answer it we need to know how the Quran was given to the prophet preserved by his companions and then distributed around the Muslim world this is the story of language history and the commitment of an entire civilization to Pres reserving the words of God you see it's without di criticals in there according to the Muslim understanding the Quran was revealed to the prophet Muhammad over 23 years from the age of 40 to his death at the age of 63 over those 23 years he received the Revelation from God in a number of ways most commonly it was spoken to him directly by the angel Gabriel but at other times it came during his dreams and on a number of occasions it came to him directly from God and he experienced this as the sound of a heavy Bell after which the words of the Revelation were made clear to him throughout those 23 years the prophet endeavored to share the Revelation with those around him as soon as it came he did this verbally as he couldn't read or write but he strongly encouraged others around him to write down the Revelation as well as memorize it this was the basis of how Muslims believe the Quran became pres not purely to written or oral means but with both strengthening the other the companions are okay actually go ahead yeah what is it you want to ask um so Allah help me out with this but he can't correct them like they are taking notes but he can't correct them who can't correct them Prophet wasam can't read he but they him to verify shall We Carry On yeah yes okay okay around him constantly strove to memorize these verses with many eventually memorizing the entire book and they simultaneously wrote them down on whatever materials they had around them from parchment to Bone to Wood and stone over time at least 65 companions functioned as scribes for the prophet who eventually established a school in Medina dedicated to teaching 900 of his companions to read and write however the dialect of the quesi tribe that the prophet spoke in wasn't the only dialect of the Arabian Peninsula and as the religion was adopted by a growing number of tribes they began to struggle with understanding the Quran to overcome this the prophet was given permission to teach the Quran in seven of the main dialects in the region allowing the message to be understood more widely but these dialects didn't really affect the written records as they were only different when the Quran was actually VOC ized so this was the state of the Quran at the death of the Prophet hundreds of companions who had memorized the complete Quran in seven official dialects all of which were considered valid ways of reciting the Quran as well as an incredible amount of written records that were held by the prophet's companions throughout Medina and Beyond the placing of each verse within each chapter had been established by the prophet before he died but because each chapter functions as an independent unit the companions had different ways of ordering the chapters themselves within the book as a whole with the death of the Prophet the leadership of the Muslim Community passed to his close friend Abu Bakr who was quickly beset by conflict on the outskirts of the now considerably large Muslim State this conflict led to the Battle of yamama which saw many of those who had memorized the Quran killed many of these memorizers known as did survive but it highlighted the critical issue of preserving the entirety of the Quran which was in danger if all of them were killed Abu Bakr decided to appoint zabit to compile all of the written verses of the Quran into one collection using only those verses which had been written in the presence of the Prophet himself these manuscripts would then be verified by those who had memorized the entire Quran at the hands of the Prophet this was where the important concept ofat or multiply attested sources came into play in order to be 100% sure that a verse of the Quran was in fact a verse of the Quran it needed to have multiple independent chains of transmission from different memorizers of the Quran in this way any verse that came to Zade could be corroborated through both written and oral means essentially guaranteeing that every single verse put in the final book was conveyed by the prophet once this had been completed by Zade he penned the completed text which became known as the SU and gave it to Abu Bakr this was now the official text of the Quran with the death of Abu Bakr it was given first to Omar and then to ha the Widow of the Prophet when Omar passed away throughout this time the religion had spread incredibly rapidly now reaching from Libya in the west to kusan in the East with this influx of non-arabs who had embraced Islam those seven official dialects began to cause some issues variant readings are beginning to crop up and in order to Stamp Out the issue the then kman decided that the original quesi dialect would have to become the official reading of the Quran he appointed a committee of 12 companions to essentially repeat the process of Zade IB thit Gathering all of those primary sources rectifying any differences and confirming them with those who had memorized the text orally once this had been completed he sent for the original which was still being held by ha and compared the two collections for any differences once completed this final copy was read out toan and the companions who all agreed upon its accuracy and they decided to burn the original sources in order to avoid any future Divergence with the text now this text is referred to as the mus and it was the first written Quran to be sent throughout the Muslim world with accompanying reciters it's considered to be exactly the same as the Quran we read today with only one pretty big difference it didn't include any skeletal or diacritical marks which are essential in differentiating different words which otherwise look exactly the same for example this is the word for elephant F and this is the verb to kiss something however when you remove the markings they both look exactly the same this was how the mus was written now whilst these diacritical marks weren't invented until 30 years after the death ofman these markings what are called skeletal dots were known to the Arabs at the time ofman but he must have intentionally decided not to include them in his original mus now whilst we don't really know why one possible reason is that he wanted to ensure that the Quran would always be taught and preserved through both written and oral methods and that's where those official reciters who were sent out with copies of the mus came into play without these official teachers guiding them students who studied the Quran wouldn't actually be able to read the text but with both the written text and an official reciter the Quran was now completely standardized and able to be transmitted across the Muslim world I think this is a very good Over time however the usefulness of this approach began to sorry I think this is a very good point like um because this the fact that it's it doesn't have the dots yeah and therefore they can only learn it through uh yeah the thing is this accommodated a different you know the recitations but that's what I told you earlier on Di criticals and this is a skeletal format which can accommodate the different recitations and as you can see how beautiful it is the preservation of the Quran yes all the way from the prophet sallallahu Ali wasallam to Abu Bak to Omar to and then to the Muslims around the world you know the the Restriction sorry to interrupt you brother the Restriction that he did set the text obviously I can understand I'm just trying to tackle every single aspect of the I have right the skeletal text was deliberate it wasn't something was an accident Orman di critical marks it was deliberate to accommodate other recitations in that because th critical marks existed in Arabic at that time yeah we know that cuz we have inscriptions in Arabic that have dots but they left them in the because they knew they have exactly but you see the the preservation is both text and through oral which is the teacher the teacher is very important in this because they were actually people who were accredited to teach not just how many Tom Dick and Harry so we have to take the whole thing as a package rather than just saying oh how can this be true how can we trust that when you have multiple accredited sources you know multiple attested sources actually and that's what tat means it's not just Mass transmission because anyone can Mass transmit misinformation but when you have different sources and they all agree with each other at the end then that is called multiple attested sources yes and if this is on a large scale you have several different chains doing that and they all agree at the end then we can confirm that yes this is something that we can say it's trusted and is authentic at the end of the day I mean you know when you were young you probably recited some poetries in your school and your friends recited this and then maybe you went to another country and they recited the same poetry why was it the same because they all had been not only Mass transmitted but through different sources and they all had maybe the same teachers who learned from the from their uh teacher with the same wording and everything and at the end you go anywhere in the world and you read Twinkle Twinkle Little Stars the same isn't it and this is only on small scale I'm showing you but with the Quran it was even more complex than that it was much more um they paid much more attention to the preservation of not only the text but also the pronun as brother Ibrahim told you earlier because the pronunciation you cannot just put it in a text you know they can be Mis pronounced even if you have the the correct methodology or something people have different methods so this is also there's a chain of transmission of the Quran which and the and the kis have a chain as well you know are you from Egypt sister because there lots of Kies over there and they learn from each other through the teachers and they have a specific uh uh way of uh teaching their teachers every teacher has a specific way for them to teach but at the end you know they all come out reciting the same Quran in in an eloquent way uh doesn't matter which part of the world they go to okay let us just finish the video it's only a few I think just a minute or two left inshah right diminish and within theal the scal dots began to be used in new copies of the mus and this quickly became the standard for all personal copies of the Quran so apart from the development of new calligraphy Styles and Publishing methods every Quran from then until today has been exactly the same and every of the Quran has learned the exact same book by heart that is a 14400 year M chain of people who learned the same book from their teachers and taught the same book to their students which is why until this very day we can open up a copy of the Quran and know with confidence that this is the same special book that was taught by the prophet [Music] himself right may Allah bless those brothers and SS alhamdulillah yeah short video about 10 minutes gives you a lot of information uh if you want I'm going to post the the link for you in the back Studio yeah and the point that the brother ibraim has mentioned earlier because it would it would cover the issue I have with the testimony and so on because here it's very clear that the V video is very informative and and and is very clear and it brings up many good points and so on but um like but again I I there is this issue of the facts that the who got together to put the Codex down itself this codex that is not dotted and and and it's like has a specific number of verses specific number of ver of words in it and so on um what brother Mansour told me last time he said the Quran would be that they took out to the umah after the meeting after the compilation and and so on like if it was different from what the other other people the other Muslims had memorized they would have objected they would have stood against that and so on like um like again here I'm I'm saying like it's it's an issue of authority and um like um they couldn't have all conspired could they to to change the Quran if you got know multiple attestations from different sources you cannot say that they have all conspired and yet the text and the oral tradition remain the same it's impossible like because now those who would fight like we know that we know that the Muslims didn't memorize the whole Quran like how many were there like 100 thousand they weren't all of them like say all of them nobody said all of them yeah but but listen it's like for example even if not all of them memorize A to Z you would still have a lot of overlap from people who are not H for example okay I let's say I memorize Bak yes and then my brother he's not a half but he's also memorized Bak other people for example they may memorize Surah and Surah and suras like that so even if so every Muslim memorizes many chapters of the Quran even if it's not a to z you still get M from that because you didn't have a situation where only two Muslims know Surah Al Iman and you know that's not what happened yeah so uh you actually don't even need uh Muslims to memorize it and by the way I have a question do you believe Muhammad existed am yes I do why um two reasons because uh obviously we have this report not only from the Muslims right we have it through like all people from all backgrounds and they don't Den they're just conveying information because they didn't the non-muslims that we have are basing their information other other reason the other reason which is also very important because uh like we have a Hadith like okay like I have been Muslim all my life and I have interacted with theth and so on and there are miraculous Hadith they come from a normal man like which had is miraculous we have prophecies a lot of prophe for example just for the sake of example that something came to my mind like the fact that he said and that I don't know the name of that in in inl it's it's it's the mountain of gold that is going to appear when the uh yeah when that River in Iraq that will the Euphrates prophe this prophecies having materialize how do you know they're true well they have they have recently they have the they find mountain of gold some rock no no the the water dried up and then we also have which water dried up sorry which which dried up of the Euphrates it's the the the the the it started recessing yeah but it's not Dy right no yeah let's say there is miraculous information yeah then why wouldn't you believe it's preserved then if if you have verified that Muhammad is the messenger of God based on stuff like that and why wouldn't you believe it's preserved no why this is very good question thank you the issue is because we have previous scriptures and pre previous prophets they were real they were prophets their scriptures were divine but they got corrupted now I understand that corruption do you believe that mhamad was the last prophet that he claimed to be the last prophet yeah this is one of the things I was actually researching because I thought like if I can prove that the prophet Sall Ali wasallam is the last prophet I my case you get it there is absolutely nothing to to look into wait a minute so you're saying you believe had but not the Quran is what you're saying um I didn't I don't believe the Quran nor is the other way around you're the first person I've seen who believes in theith but not the Quran the Quran says and you don't believe that but you believe a mountain of gold is going to be found somewhere in in Iraq and the river's been dried up this is the Hadith I don't understand brother I don't I didn't say okay I didn't say I don't believe in the Quran and I didn't say I don't believe this whole conversation is useless then if you believe in the Quran because look either you believe in the Quran or you don't believe in the Quran which one is it the the issue is about changes you know it's not about do you believe do you believe in the Quran being revealed by sorry uh from Allah to the prophet peace be upon him do you believe that I do because we have miraculous you believe Allah can preserve the Quran if he wants Allah can preserve the Bible as well no wait wait he revealed the Bible no he didn't no sorry I don't mean the Bible I mean the inil sorry but that was a very you know the AY in the Quran that says that Muhammad is the Seal of the prophets yeah so in your conspiracy that could have been added by some sahabi right now now can you please explain to me like the process of how that would have happened like because originally then the Ayah must have said something like you know the ey says so it would in your version it would say so where did that phrase yeah how did that end in your in your conspiracy I want you to like lay out for us how you think that would have happened it's going to sound so ridiculous I think you'll realize the problem for me if they are reliable for me if they are reliable then they haven't changed anything no I understand but let let's just like live in your hypothetical world please explain to me how did they were making it up let's just say the sahab were making it up and their Liars how would that that I am not claiming that the Quran is changing understand but your doubt is that the sahaba could be unreliable right yeah no not could be how do you prove they are not okay but the point of proving the point of proving they're reliable is to show they're not unreliable so let's just say they're unreliable please explain to me the process of how a phrase gets added in the Quran how does the phrase and the well if I'm not reliable I'm going to add it like going to give me Authority you see what that's going to give me Authority what does that mean if I am unreliable I could add it and it would give me Authority that's not what I'm asking I'm saying let's hypothetically say that the sahab are how you mean unreliable people in it okay now so then and Deen is back ! so you agree that if Muhammad is the final Prophet that seals the deal so there's a I in Quran saying he's the final Prophet no not from the Quran because that's the whole issue the issue is about the Quan but listen what I'm saying is so then uh you would have to in your cons in your conspiracy that Ayah or at least the part saying he's the last prophet that must have been added by a sahabi or it could have been added by a sahabi yeah so I want you to explain to me how that would have happened what's the process of that because when you try and explain it you're going to realize how stupid it is okay you understand like with all your respect you're asking me to to answer questions that I don't subscribe to because I didn't claim that they have I can follow up with that I I have absolutely no issue like but if you want me to do that I can do it I wouldn't exp me how it would happened let's say let's say they would like for example okay we've gathered we've got we've got the the we've got the Elight of of the sah they are here in the ma and and now the compilation is happening right if there is Authority and there is corruption and there is a people you're talking about the authority of the companions do you realize that I I get it compion minut Hally he said we don't we don't deal with hypothetic here if you're going to doubt the Quran let me do this with her because she's realize you know you need to you need to repeat your sh I'm asking a hypothetical because it's going to make no sense soba you said when the sahab are comp compiling it right what date which compilation Abu Bak which one uh the the one through our history that one MTI compilations I want you to tell me which oneic one because that's the one so soic one yeah now that's when the sahaba conspired to add this Ayah saying that he's the last Prophet now before that has other people or take away some verses or some suras okay we're just going with this hypothetical before this USIC compilation is happening has the Ayah been recited before yeah if it was if it was there then yes okay let's say okay and so they had a version of Surah they would have a version of that doesn't have the part about the last prophet and it was recited from the time of the Prophet to now up to the uh time when they're compiling it and the sahabah at this point have gone out to not only Arabia but other nations reting the Quran and they've all learned the without the part about the last prophet and then suddenly whenman wants to compile the Quran they all come together and they're like you know what's good let's add this phrase about him being the last prophet so they come together and they write in that extra part of the Ayah and then everyone just and then they all the Muslims in the world just forget that this was never part of the Quran and this is just a new Ayah and no one says anything and they all seal their lips and maybe some of them know and they're like well if I point it out I'm going to get killed so let me not say it and so not a single hisor not a single person was brave enough not a single person was brave enough to say you're wrong this was never part of the Quran you added it but all the sahaba who fought all the wars and all they all agre let's just add this for what reason why would we even add that he's the last prophet I don't know it sounds good you know there's something like that in Daniel 9 so it was added and it do you do you see how ridiculous that sounds and then you said they could have claimed well it's and yet not a single reading of that Ayah has survived where they don't have that phrase so the excuse heard read Quan and he he's never heard those that that that recitation before it doesn't matter because because if you claim if you make a a different version of an ay and you claim it's an it wouldn't replace the earlier version you would have both that survive so for example you know uh uh you when there's a ay it says and then it also has let's say I wanted to make up a new version of that I would say okay all right when I introduce this new version the other two versions aren't replaced they still exist so the excuse wouldn't work the only way it would work is if there existed a version of this Ayah that didn't say he's the he's the last prophet so I remember people the people that speak a will know actually that it is a forgery yeah do you do you realize how like ridiculous this proposal sounds to I mean the Ridiculousness of the I wish I can I can realize honestly um trying to realize why why would this be a doubt it's ridiculous I I want Dean to take over I can't do this anymore yesam alikum sorry I just want to understand did she bring up that example or you bring up a hypothetical I didn't bring but that could have been added by the sahab can't appeal to the Quran I didn't say it could have been added I said how do we prove nothing was added and nothing wased that's not how this works so uh how this works is you don't you don't have any reasons to doubt until there's reasons yeah just if you allow me to finish so unless unless unless you have reasons to doubt then then doubt should spring up right so something there's a yeah again if you just let me finish so yeah there's a distinction between something being possible and something being probable so are you making the case now that it's more probable than not that the Quran isn't preserved or are you saying it's just possible I'm saying I hope it's not uh no I'm not talking I'm not talking about Hope based on evidence not hope or what you think evence there is high probability yes a high property is not been preserved go ahead provide the evidence like like okay you see now you are putting me in a position that I don't subscribe to what I am not you just said you did okay just allow me please I wait wait I haven't I haven't even I haven't even I don't even have understanding of your position and you're saying I misrepresented you I'm just asking question my brother just allow me to to explain my my myself right so I'm saying did you you told me do you have a reason to to bring up these doubt I said yes I do have reasons and the reasons are the previous scriptures now I am not saying that the same happened to the Quran I am trying to find out our strong position as Muslims because I know we Muslims have strong positions to back up our claim that the sahaba are 100% reliable to the point where they haven't done what has been done to the other scriptures you know doesn't this remind you of the Shia position yes of yes that's yeah of Quran fa like what says in of course in his book it's the same Shia position no but position is closer to an atheist than than sh no no it's not because the atheist Scholars don't even say what you're saying are you claiming to be an atheist now by the way Dean she said that she can't accept sing to beia wait but is your from what what I've gathered is from what I've gathered is because the Torah and in were not preserved therefore you have reasons to doubt the Quran hasn't been preserved that's got to be one of the worst arguments I've ever heard because you're you're trying to compare you're trying to compare apples to oranges at this point uh was the Torah and the did the Torah and injil was it a memorized by hundreds if not thousands of people uh the I memorization happened later on like you see the mass memorization later on it was memorized at the time of the at the very time of the Prophet be upon him yeah so the question the question is why were the other scriptures not memorized why only the Quran and by the way when for memory for memorization even for the non-arabs it's easy also also to do we know the scribes do we actually know the scribes who wrote the Torah and we know the scribes of the Quran you comparing apples with oranges seriously well the scrip say it's been corrupted if you read Jeremiah 8 say you know them [Music] like when you when you tell me we know them honestly like this I don't know how to to react to that because you you tell me I know them like how how do you know them do you know they were reliable from their biographies from their biographies we we know each person listen listen you believe in theth I had the biography of Paul and and and wait talking about PA go ahead go ahead yes sorry I make point and that's why we know he's a liar that's the point listen guys the main point is this you accept the Hadith of the is drawing up right yeah that's what I was surprised about you accept you accept wait one second you accept an narration but you have doubt over a m chain for the Quran are you serious like I again I didn't say that what is this what is this method I don't understand well you did you didn't mention the if you mention the and you believe in the prophecies which haven't even materialized yet then why you doubt the Quran that is what's baffling me you know the same people who preserve the Hadith are the same people and times 100 that preserve verses of the Quran that my question is have they have they made any changes how do you how do you know the hasn't been changed actually do you have any reasons to believe you accept the verses in the Quran do you accept the verses in the Quran where it Praises Mah and again you see like my question is has there been any changes she doesn't believe the Quran has been preserved that's why we asking her all do you acan don't understand this your standard your standard of accepting aith is one narration but when I ask you about verses in the Quran that have been preserved not just through one through multiple and you're telling me what's what's your approach what's your what's your Criterion on by which because you know the Euphrates River Hadith hasn't even been fulfilled I think someone said that as well it hasn't even been fulfilled so you didn't even have that criteria of oh well the prophecy has been fulfilled it hasn't even been fulfilled yet so why do you accept it well like you understand I think the reason she mentioned the Hadith is because she was asked if she believes in the prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam being a true Prophet I think that was Ibrahim isn't it you asked yeah I was trying to ask like the whole the whole the just to prove that yeah I she realiz she probably made a mistake doing that because now it shows that you believe in the Hadith but not the Quran which is quite mindboggling like again here brother with all your respect W I have a lot of respect for you honestly um but trying to play games or trying to like I'm here getting not a game I mean we are we are using Common Sense here okay you're going to use the as your something reliable but at the same breath you're saying the Quran is not reliable do you not I didn't say it's not reliable I'm just questioning how do no no you didn't question you you were pretty confident about the prophecies mentioned in the Hadith unless you're backtracking now no I am not because I do accept there are many the Quran I how do you know theth hasn't been changed if the Quran can be changed why can the Hadith be changed yes there are many that are question no we talking about this particular the one you mentioned how do you know those are not changed because those are Miracles like there are verses in they hav't materialized miral they haven't materialized yet can I give you an example from you gave us the example already and that hasn't worked out for you well actually hasim let her give us because maybe maybe weesen with that give us one one Quran verse or one Hadith you accept and give us your standard by which you accept it but okay again as I said there are verses in the Quran and there are a Hadith that you can't reject because they prove that this is a prophet his Prophet hood and they prove that the there was a prophet the Quran is divine and so on these verses are Divine and could they could not have been made up are there are there many of these uh sort of signs in the Quran yeah Quran for example we have the the verses that mention the stages of the development of I'm not asking for examples I want to know the quantity do we have are the is the majority of the Quran a miracle essentially the Quran in itself is a miracle in itself right but I'm I'm trying to understand her standard so you're saying if it's miraculous therefore it's preserved okay is the majority of the Quran miraculous you show me how that is like no I'm asking I'm ask I'm asking your position do you believe the majority of the Quran is miraculous she does or even or even all of the Quran can can can the Quran can the Quran not even the majority it could be all of it even possibly under your view alhamdulillah if it is right like um is your position that yeah I'm trying I'm trying to understand your position your position is that if it's miraculous therefore it's from Allah okay is is the entirety of the Quran miraculous or any parts or and the majority minority just give us my position is just prove to me that the sahab are reliable unconditionally that's no no no no you gave us a standard to work with we're working by that now the Quran if the verse is miraculous then therefore we know it's from Allah is the entirety of the Quran miraculous in different ways but in the same way that I just mentioned it could be questioned whether it is divine or not I'm asking can can listen you're not answering she's not answering a direct question okay go ahead go ahead I'm gonna try to follow up with you go on yes okay is the majority of the Quran miraculous not in the same way as the verse I I shared with you no right so how much how much quantity of the Quran you say would be miraculous I don't know honestly a very very small a very small minority a majority honestly yeah yeah yeah small you believe you believe a very small minority of the Quran is miraculous is that right well in the same way in the same example I shared with you yes what sort of way are you talking about when I say do you know do you understand what I mean by Miracle well exactly I'm telling you in so many ways so explain to me what you mean by miraculous okay okay so Miracle means can't be explained by natural means it has to be Supernatural do you understand for me what I was trying to to Showcase is the fact that it couldn't have been said by a normal man you see yes exactly can a normal man recite and have knowledge of the majority of the Quran that's the question can a normal man what the contents of the Quran are they more likely to be explained through Supernatural means or natural means it's very clear I don't I don't know how else to explain this I don't I can't understand your question to about do you believe Jesus existed you know you know what uh to be honest with you R it up that's it yeah we should honestly okay but you believe Jesus existed by the way sorry I'm back guys sorry yes sorry uh Tob can you answer the direct question please um I couldn't understand it I don't know howse to make it more clear like de by the way the she is saying we should wrap it up so okay I mean you can continue but let's just wrap it up quick yeah yeah we'll wrap it up now so the main point is this right uh obviously the Quran uh you would say that the linguistic Miracle of it the scientific miracle that you want to bring up historical Miracles knowledge of the Unseen so on and so forth that that constitutes a majority of the Quran I'm not sure many Muslims would deny that right um it seems like you didn't want to accept that because you were scared on what what would follow but obviously what would follow is if if the majority of the Quran is miraculous therefore majority of is preserved what does that tell you about the people preserving it it tells you that they are trustworthy people and so on now going into the manuscript tradition we see there's no additions right from the time of the Prophet we have manuscripts from the time of the Prophet Salli wasallam we have a robust oral tradition right and as I said there's Conformity between the different the principle is if you don't have reasons to doubt then you shouldn't doubt it's possible that I walk I walk outside and uh some natural accident happens and I somehow die as a result right but just because it's uh something that's possible doesn't mean I'm not I'm going to be scared when I walk outside my house right it's only when I have sufficient reasons to believe there's going to be harm that I won't step outside the same way here we should not doubt the authenticity of the Quran unless there's reason to doubt you haven't provided any evidence you've only said well other scriptures in the past haven't been preserved therefore the Quran right we should have sufficient reason to doubt the Quran itself Praises companions praises the m and the you failed to provide any evidence that these particular verses have been added or or anything like that these verses of the Quran uh also align with the style of writing as the other verses of the Quran the same sort of linguistic Miracle still applies and and the the same sort of writing style you fail to prevent you fail to provide any sort of argument to cast out and it's just it's just the case of you think it's possible therefore um there's a problem right but yeah that's a good point that if if the sahaba interpolated stuff or took stuff away then literary analysis would show it like we can tell when certain things look uh i' say suspect that it looks like something's been deleted or something's been added that's like for example biblical Scholars do this all the time without even any manuscript evidence because they're man the Christian Jewish manuscripts are late so they have to do they can't fully rely on manuscripts you can check when stuff's been added and just like it disrupts the flow you know it contradicts something else it's a different style uh it reflects later theological disputes etc etc there you would have to show us something like that in the Quran because otherwise the style conforms the SE conforms everything conforms then you have no reason to think it's later right and and finally it's not even just that there's no reason to doubt we have reasons to actually affirm even from a secular perspective countless secular scholars in Academia accept the authenticity of the Quran right so even when you say like oh this is from like like you're coming from atheist point of view or whatever like even atheist Scholars they for the most part they accept the authenticity of the Quran yeah so TBA do you believe any of the companions are reliable according to you are any of the companions Rel are any of the companions of the Prophet peace be upon Him reliable uh I wish that's what I wants to establish how do you have a criteria to establish this that's what my question is how what do you use to establish this establish sh just one minute here for example if you lost your keys yeah and you tell everyone I've lost my keys I can't find it and they ask you what kind of key is it what does it look like and you keep saying I don't know will you ever find your key no but it's if it's your key I'm gonna ask you how does it look like exactly that's what I'm asking you what is your criteria for accepting companion we are both here on the same page like I'm just ask the age you know you you mention about the previous scriptures being corrupted do you know the previous scriptures did not have any guarantee of preservation from Allah subhana wa ta'ala the Quran does so he cannot compare the previous scriptures to the Quran the last scripture the last Revelation from Allah subhana wa tala in fact they don't even say the previous scriptures are Revelation if you ask the Christians they'll say these were written by Mark Matthew Luke and John they were not from Allah based on them how can you compare aahi to something which is written by men I don't mean the inil I mean the current existing can you sh my screen yeah yeah so Subhan Allah we we have manuscripts from the time of the Prophet Sall alaihi wasallam and you're trying to tell people that it's possible there's some form of corruption this is one criteria right this this is one of the main criterias which is manuscript tangible manuscript evidence this is one for one the same as the Quran you're able to read Surah andah Toba from this right you realize that is that good enough criteria for you are you there Toba yes yes I'm here um are you processing the information I am processing the information and I can understand where you're coming from all this is really you accept it would you accept this criteria course I do accept this all these pieces of evidence are really good right okay so we got they don't cover they don't cover the actual issue I have because no no hold on hold on if you got if you got physical evidence we said that you don't even need to do that analysis if it's mut so you keep going back as if we're analyzing an chain of narration we're not we're dealing with something we don't even need to do that another another thing is another thing is this she was trying to the only parallel or the only piece of evidence she has is well the past scriptures therefore the Quran do you know when the we have the the manuscript um the Bing manuscript is from the time of the Prophet sallam around two whole pages worth right now do you know when the earliest manuscript we have for the gospels well please just don't bring in those things to me because I don't belong to that like no no no no with this is this is very relevant because you brought up the analogy right you said the early scriptures therefore the Quran do you understand the preservation of the early scriptures how how minimal their evidences are for its preservation and how much evidence we do have for the Quran have you researched this at all I'm trying to understand just just on the Bas very very Bas Allah already told us that they've been corrupted so we go by what Allah told us understand but she doesn't accept like she doesn't accept the Quran Dean let me ask you something how you know the ayat that say that the Torah and inil are corrupted how do you know that's not a corruption in the Quran yeah that's true or or do you do you use historical evidence as proof that it's been corrupted argument is circular yeah so if you don't accept physical evidence you don't accept testimonies through the chains of transmission I don't know what will convince you do you want Allah to come and present you the Quran ask you to but what is your criteria for accepting a historical I want to I want to like actually know her answer to that for that verse wrapped up wanted it to wrap up all right uh so let's wrap it up here TBA I think there's there's a bigger issue here than just accepting uh the narrations or the the Transmissions the change there's a bigger issue here trust me you spoke to brother farit for two hours is that right yes yes so if he can't convince you I doubt we will be able to oh no no he we didn't address like is he is he joining in because we didn't address these everyone to join in when did when did this doubt start appearing to you at what stage well it's been a while and I have been trying to I've spoken to when you say a while means what a few years a decade months months months few months so this year yeah sorry this year were you were you a sh no I am I am a born Sunni okay so the DS appeared in 2024 well they appeared through a personal experience and they started developing with the time so what personal experience if you don't mind sharing it's your de at the end of the day you know I I I appreciate that and actually I can share screenshots with you of me no just just I sent emails to many many of like all these streams I sent emails with these questions I've been actually trying to work it out and so on and uh um no but if the convers want to get to the bottom of the issue because it looks like you haven't researched it thoroughly and you're having so many doubts and I don't know why you didn't you know go by yourself a book and I don't think a book would help me I need a person to person conversation no but so the book that I to I told you to research what is the criteria of doubts grow except in historical material you should read stuff on that right okay because you obviously uh don't understand how history is done because as you yourself admitted that if we apply your criteria we can't accept any history at all ancient history we would have to say it's all unreliable so you true yes yeah so so when you come to like a absurd conclusion like that like that just tells you like there's something wrong with your methodology so what you need to do is uh uh epistemic work like H how do we know something's reliable when can we trust it CU as I was asking you how do you think Jesus existed because even if the 12 disciples came that was a very good question by the way I wouldn't know how to answer that yeah because even if the 12 disciples resurrected and they came in front of you and they said oh yeah we know Jesus we ate with them we drank you could be like how do you know you're not lying but that would be ridiculous like if I if I tell you my mom exists or well I guess my mom has a genetic connection but if I told you I have a brother like how do you know I'm not lying so this is I asked about the testimony thing yeah but anyway sister tuba uh send us an email I'll send you the shik's email address and maybe you can have a conversation because we need you I know you got doubts you need to get to the bottom of it uh see what the root cause is maybe there's something you you missed and maybe the sh might be able to help you in that inshallah all right okay take thank you so much thank you all right uh sorry sorry just to confirm did she ever say her stand about why she thinks the Bible's corrupt or you just assumed she meant 27 it's because we as Muslims believe that the previous scriptures are corrupted so she's using that line of argument yeah no that's circular because she that's the thing that's very in question which is like the Islamic sources yeah right so we got Joe in the back Studio Joe can you switch on your camera because we are doing this today because we had quite a few trolls unfortunately so if you want to come on the stream switch on your camera and we can let you on and the same goes to everybody else who's waiting in the back Studio or we close early simple as that it's bit nearly seven hours anyway right so Joe has confirmed uh you can switch it off now Joe if you want to that's it hi Joe how are you doing how are you joe [ Christian - from UK ] :: asks if angel Jibrīl (as) said Prophet (saws) to read ; and how the full Qur'an was revealed to him (saws) if he could not read [[ is jumping too much ]] brother you good yeah yeah we good where you calling from yeah from UK brother okay are you a Muslim no I'm a Christian I've got like a questions okay no problem is it okay if I I ask a question yeah yeah yeah of course yeah it uh we had a stream today on a particular topic on Christianity and I will take I will take one question or topic you want but I have a question first yeah okay okay I'll take same position as the sister was taking you know like cuz the Quran I believe I'm not saying you believe it I believe that this year I believe it's not like what it claims Joe just ask the question ask the question yeah and be specific or if I do you take her this whatever just ask the question please right I'll ask the question uh the question I'll ask is uh when Prophet when Angel Jil yeah came to Prophet Muhammad yeah and said to him did he sayra or did he say did he say read or did he say recite he said recite in it or he said read that's the first question then I'll go on and ask another question did read answer he said read y this is the answer he said read he said read so because he couldn't read so did he manage to read no he couldn't read so how come how come he he had the full book the Quran revealed to him when he couldn't read do you understand how it goes he said to him read because he was telling him mean repeat after me what I'm saying and the prophet sallallahu Al wasallam used to tell him I'm not learned I'm illiterate and he was telling him read then he then he said to him read in the name of your lord so that's how it goes yeah and then when he when he started reading did they start to write the Quran down or the Revelation did the Revelation came once or the revelation came like time period after period Progressive it's Progressive progressive revelation over the period of 23 years next so the scriptures which he was wring by then by then he was reciting when the the angel jel was telling him companions were the companions were writing them down next the companions were were writing him down did it did know that he was a did didn't didn't know he was an angel who met him of course they knew next so why did he go to his wife and like they said I heard someone saying that they strangled they beat him up in that c listen listen you jumping from one place you should go you should go in order you you jumping from left to right what is what is your what is the purpose of this line of questioning what are you trying to achieve Joe I'm trying to like CU when the when the angel J said read read he started reading and then the the the the he didn't read read from after him you said you you throwing it you said before you said read now you yeah he said read he said repeat after me he also said that now you saying repeat after no no no watch the video he did say that you're not listening why so Jo why why you asked us many questions now let me ask you a question why do you believe uh in the Trinity because Jesus is the creator created me and you that wasn't my question why did you why do you believe in a trinity because Jesus is the creator in the Quran can I just tell you why I believe in the Trinity and you can you show me from the Bible I I'll tell you from all the scriptures which is sent down me one brother you can't choose and say Cal you from the whole Bible I'm going wait Joe wait Joe you you were you were laughing and that as soon as he asked you about the Trinity you kind of like start getting a bit chill out chill out he wants Allah to punish me because he wants me to chill out as soon as you were asked about the 22 started getting nervous just come down need to get triggered just answer the question show us from the Bible where can I just can I just finish what I was saying then you ask I was saying you want me because Allah sent the can you please answer the question can I can I can I just finish brother then see how triggered he is since you asked him the Trinity you asked him about the Trinity you asked him about the Trinity and he started getting triggered yeah right uh Tremor do you want to show yourself uh in the camera in the back Studio only I can see you and if you can't then we are going to have to remove you CU we had too many trolls today no uh the same thing with abas in the back Studio briefly show us your camera and then we'll let you on yeah you can switch it off now abas yesam alikum my dear brothers Abbas [ Muslim ] :: asks why the person k*lling somebody gets pun*shed when that person is already meant to die at that time yes I have a question I'm a little confused when it comes to the decree of Allah regarding for example death so if if a person gets killed by someone right now that person who has died was already meant to die that specific day so then why would the other person who killed him get punished is it just because I mean wasn't he just a way Allah used to test him so it just doesn't make sense to me or coming from a different angle suppose someone jumps from a roof roof of a building yeah and he he dies he committed suicide but if he didn't do that action he was going to die the same day okay I got an answer to this but I would like to listen to uh Brother Dean or Ibrahim sure yeahum so yeah um the answer to that would just be that there's going to be a Reconciliation between the Divine decree and uh and the Free Will and it's something that's like intuitive already like everyone already assumes axiomatically that they have free will but they always also have this intuitive belief that not everything came came by chance right so we don't get we don't need to get into the technicalities of things as theists generally not even mus being Muslim theists generally you don't need to get into the technicalities between how we reconcile these things um the the question to be asked is is this a contradiction to affirm that both uh Allah any everything that happens about Allah's decree and at the same time we have free will now the question is that a contradiction the answer is no like the bur the Propet to show that that's the only possible uh issue that someone could bring up and yeah there's no way to show that's actually a contradiction the point about okay well why why isn't someone um how account for what their actions if Allah had willed it well it's because Allah has given them the capacity to go ahead and do things and knew that he would do things but he didn't coerce them or didn't force this action to occur they had a choice they have a bunch of choices at their disposal to choose from and they chose one and Allah knew that they were going to choose it and Allah gave them the capacity to choose such a such a decree to happen right now uh there's three things you have to understand with with the first thing is that Allah knows the past present future as well as um the possible uh occurrences that that might have happened right so e as well as the thing the path that that everyone did choose to happen so the first thing to affirm is knowledge the second thing to affirm is that knowledge that Allah knew was was going to happen all of it has been written down but writing it down has no effect on actually the the causes or the effects to come now the third thing is which a lot of people they uh they try to reconcile try to find like a Reconciliation between and there's different ways to do this is that nothing happens Allah Allah wills it so we say like inshallah right so if Allah will so um we're not saying if Allah forces so by saying that rather what we're saying is if Allah Wills for me to be able to to choose such a thing and then even when we get into that um we get into uh there's limitations within our Free Will so I might plan tomorrow uh to do a certain thing and Allah might stop it from happening because of some some occurrence right um one example could be I'm planning tomorrow to you know catch a bus ride the early in the morning and I go to sleep and I don't wake up in time right or I go to sleep and I wake up and the bus rid or something happens to him that's something I can't control right that's something in Allah's control that he had planned for me even I intended to do to do something and I had the free will to choose I didn't end up getting the choice to go ahead and that's that's by Allah's will uh yeah so there's even different categories for this from how much can we can choose as well but yeah going back to like the initial point on on your question uh there's no there's no indication at all that there's some type of uh coercion or or Force being implied when Allah um Wills for something to occur at the same time when we choose something as well that answer was too long for him oh yeah it's a very it's a very it's a very big topic like yeah it is yeah it is you know the first question I normally ask these guys is like did you come to the panel by your choice or did someone cause you right exactly and that's the main point the prophet Sall Al wasallam said um don't don't dwell on on don't dwell too much on uh the point is is that here oh sorry I got disconnected my my my I thought you got bored of the no I didn't know I didn't actually I just wanted to I wasn't saying that there's a contradiction that actually the thing is that I I I I came from a Shia background so I left that may couple of years ago right and I was just having a hard time understanding this specific concept where if if someone kills someone then is Allah using that person as a test to test the other person even though that person who died was supposed to die the same specific day right or for another example like right now what's going on in in Gaza right like let's say Israel drops a bomb on a building 50 people died that same day that same moment right now if they didn't do that those people were still gonna die all those 50 people who died in that building collapse they were still going to die the same day so how does that work like that's just a little confusing to me and then can can the decree of Allah be changed if if we do a lot of Dua because it's not only in death right maybe let's say for example RIS because even that provision is already decided by Allah before you were born so can that be changed through Dua or or any other means yeah so did you listen to the response de yes yes I did yes what do you make of it so far yeah I understood right that uh Allah has Allah has the knowledge but it's not because Allah has written so you're doing it Allah knew what you were going to do that's why he wrote it correct so basically it's it's simple like this look if I were to ask you uh abas did you come to this panel by your choice or did someone Force you or C you to come here I would say I came by my choice okay do you know the that you'll be coming here today no no okay does Allah know the that you'll be coming here today yes okay so if you were not forced and you were not CED and you came by own choice the key word here is Choice yeah then you cannot say you were compelled to do it yeah do you understand so whatever action you take whether you coming to the the panel or whether somebody kills somebody else okay that person did not know his so for him to kill someone at that point yes whether it's a test or not is irrelevant it was by his choice he made that action he did that action and for that action there'll be consequence okay either in this dun or in the okay so the is very simple you don't over overthink it okay because you see on the day of judgment and this is again key listen to it carefully on when you're standing in front of Allah subhana tala he's not going to ask you okay whether you you knew the or whether whatever it is you know any questions about he's not going to ask you about that he's going to ask you about your obedience and disobedience in this dunia yes which is based on your choice again so you see there's something called the will of Allah not even nothing in this dun in this entire existence happens without the will of Allah so for example that man when he makes the choice to kill someone okay he is the one making the choice okay and it's his action but Allah makes that possible okay because everything is within the control of Allah but if Allah wanted he could have also stop stopped it okay yes like in the case of uh ibraim alisam remember Nam put him in the fire the fire is supposed to burn you but Allah told the fire to be cool for my for my servant yeah yes but the thing is normally it it basically pans out based on the will of Allah but at the same time your choice subsists within the will of Allah it's not outside the will of Allah it's still within the but it's your choice and hence you're the one accountable okay if nothing was your choice and everything was deterministic and this is where people misunder understand hard determinism which the Muslims do not believe in okay we believe in compatibilism or soft determinism where both determinism and choice and Free Will which is the choice is a free will they can subsist together hence is compatible with that yeah okay so we need to we are not hard determined where everything is like like robots you know you you have just programmed them and they got no choice in it they have to abide by that program but you as a human being you definitely have a free will and if you and hence you're accountable for both The Obedience and the Disobedience and only you're accountable for that and you'll be either rewarded or there'll be consequences for that disbelief of yours okay is that clear yeah and one more thing I can add is well if if if you already if you already like have knowledge that this isn't a contradiction then it's possible then then let me ask you this uh do do you have sufficient reasons to believe in Allah in the Quran yeah yeah I'm a Muslim yeah I said I was from a background right but I I I the point yeah yes so the point would just be that if you have sufficient reasons to believe in Allah in the Quran whether you understand it or not if if Allah says you're accountable for your actions and he decrees everything if there's a possible reconciliation for that and there is a possible reconciliation if it's not a contradiction then what's the issue no it's not issue I just just something conf I was confused about that I wanted to understand right and uh and I do understand that it's not a contradiction and uh the fact that Allah knows about it does not mean that I'm not accountable for the action it's I'm the one who's making the choice it's just that Allah knew about it and in some as brother Hashim explained that it's in Allah's will if Allah wills it could never happen in the first place but like uh like he said that this is this is the part of the Free Will right that's why it's a test and you will not be asked about KH so don't worry about the many people indulge in this and they go on lengthy discussions you know making them even more confused Allah is not going to question you on the so why you so worried about it what Allah is going to question you on your actions okay and because you already feel and you know that your actions are your choice and that's the reason you know even in this Dunya people understand that you will be accountable for your actions whether good or bad yeah okay soone I can add some articles in the private chat as well from Islam QA there's some good articles in this sure thank you I appreciate it okay brother abas I hope that thank you so much take care aldah Allah guided him from to Islam I was trying to find this one Hadith on the prophet saying not to dwell on too much oh with Hashim go I am are you Muslim uh hello can you hear me are you Muslim yeah we can hear you uh no not yet I'm not yet okay Char you will I guess just wait for hash I'm not sure what happened of course of course yeah okay how are people being added but hashim's not here I am here sorry I was in the back Studio there you can okay uh Timor are you there you need to unmute Temor [ fake ex-Christian; Hindu - from Europe ] :: asks for clarification on some hadiths regarding slave women [[ can't handle his own religion ]] yourself yes I'm here thank you uh I thought it was someone else before me that's all right yeah uh where are you calling from from Europe or you mean from which country no that's fine I mean yeah and and what's your background are you in terms of religion uh I am have uh not any religion right now um searching do you believe do you believe in God yes that I'm sure you do okay uh so you are religious uh what's what sort of God do you believe in or who is your god you know I was before into Christianity uh I was like to try to find but there was some of the things there which I couldn't get along with and that was I'm looking for other so that's our come in contact with Islam and trying to read and trying to understand and the reason why I'm calling today is just to get some clarification on some some few points if it's time sorry did you say you were a Christian or you still a Christian no I'm not a Christian right now uh I I was I so when you say you believe in God I mean can you elaborate on that please uh what you mean exactly I don't understand well you you said you believed in God okay I believe in God I what does that mean to you when you say you believe in God this is like there's a higher you know my English is not so good sorry so that your English is quite good I don't find a right word no what I mean there is I I believe in you know higher sorry higher power or what you call it like I believe there is a God but uh I'm not comfortable with yeah which religion because uh in my family we are not so religious so I okay have many friends you know in Europe you're always mixed with different group of people so I know a little bit of everything I haven't been practicing by myself uh but I would love to learn more okay are you are your parents sanatani what are they Satani sorry what you say sanatani Hindu are the Hindu no no no my my mom she is from Hindu background and my father is from Christian but as I told you we live in Europe so nobody nobody's not we live in Europe as well doesn't mean that we have to be Christian we can be Muslim you know we there are people who are Hindus like your mom you know so you because you your mom's Hindu and your dad is Christian is that the reason the confusion is there you don't know whether to go for you know multiple not really not really in our family we have like this open-minded like we have to decide by ourselves so that's uh we make our own research like I have to come to my conclusion okay what I find so you you know there is a higher being there's a supernatural being you you confirmed about that yeah and that's what you refer to as God am I right yes yes okay so let me ask you this do you have any criteria in mind as to what God should be and what God should not be um you need to elaborate little what you mean let me make it easy for you you know the story about Rah and ravan right yeah yeah of course good and evil yeah yeah of course okay so can God can God be evil according to you no then that's the purpose of the god is have so this is the kind of criteria I'm looking for okay so what God is what God is and what God what or someone who might say this is is God but then because it doesn't have the criteria that fits a God you would reject that as God like for example isn't it so you would reject Raven as a god based on your criteria am I right yes yes I can give you a small explanation that you know the reason why I don't so comfortable with Christianity is when it's come to some of the morals especially when it come to that you know like you call it prison of Wars I believe where there are like some passages that I uh try to understand and that's why I compare for example with Islam so I want to see how it has had been and so that's what moral sorry what's the main reason you left Christianity the main reason I told when it's come to the prisoner of Wars especially females I found it from my understanding that they don't have this okay where where in the Bible did you read female prisons of War you know this verse when uh if you give get a captive you have to shave her hair the one month and then if you want you can marry to her that's in the Old Testament but the Christians will tell you that they don't practice that so what's your it's still you know for me I believe all is still the word of God you know I've heard this uh we don't believe on this and it used to be but for me like I don't go after it was before and now it's not okay because at the one time it was it was permitted then I want to understand why what is permitted yeah but if if you look if you look look based on history whether you're religious or not religious you know slavery was more or less considered to be the norm around the world but but Islam has actually eliminated the you know taking free men and women as slaves so it it actually condensed it to just the captives of War now what what do the people in war do they want to come and kill you right they want to destroy you your family your nation and so on so what would you do do if you were in if you were in a commander of an army or let's say even a king and they were coming an army was coming to destroy your your country your nation what would you do as Timor uh of course I would maybe take them in take them as like prisoners but what I mean like I still be before you take them as prisoners what would you do you you mean if someone will attack my country yeah yeah I defense What would would you be willing to kill them if necessary if necessary yeah if it's okay so you have no you have no problem killing them but you have a problem making them your captives kind of do you see the I no but are you listening to yourself I don't know one is killing them taking their life away and the other is taking them as captives of War feeding them clothes in them yeah with the same food and clothes you you actually use yourself which one which one would you prefer honestly if you were on their site yeah on the receiving site would you prefer to be taken as a captive or would you be preferred to be killed I think I would prefer to be killed seriously I don't think you have been to any War have you no no no but no you ask me like my top of the mind I'm think it's but honestly you know do you value your life or you don't value your life no it's it's if as a free slave I i' rather be free and be you know today today you could become a slave if you got caught in a crime and you could be behind bars all your life like in America there's a million people who are incarcerated and they are literally like slaves in the prisons yes yes yeah would you would you prefer to be in American prison or would you prefer to be killed I have an elate but I think I would be still choose that I don't think because do you value your life at all bro seriously it looks like you don't value your life you'll just give your life like that of course no of course if somebody gave you a choice between life and death you picked death how is that Common Sense yeah when you depart from this world you lose all of the like pleasures of this life right so if what would you value more for you to lose life itself as well as all the pleasures in this life as well as the connections you have in this life and all the aspirations and and uh yeah goals would you rather lose all that and die or still have that and live your life but just in this is I understand your point it's little hard to elaborate because you know it's not happening right now and it's just intuitive like the more the more um bad a crime is the more harsh punishment and the death penalty is the harshest punishment yeah and by the way look life is something which If you experience I don't know how old you are but uh it has its ups and downs do you know that yes of course every hurdle if you're going to say okay I'll take my life then it just shows you don't really value life even okay timore are you timour are you a Godly person yeah he believes in God yeah no so he's a Godly person is he practicing is he no this is this this the thing I don't okay don't know which religion to follow okay okay so if you're godly let's see if you come become a Muslim tonight and make it make it make it a good end for tonight now do you believe do do you believe that Allah is one that that God is one you see it's hard for me you you see I was come from the Christian background it's for me hard the Christians do say there are there are there are Christians who believe that God is one not all Christians all Christians say God is one it's how they interpret the one that's different yes yeah there a thing all say God is one yeah you see if it's one of course but as you said it's how you interpret or sorry how you understand the Oneness so so in the heart in the heart of your hearts in the heart of your heart is asking you about pure monotheism like the way the Muslims believe in or would you consider God to be like uh multiple whether it's multiple godhead or multiple as polytheism no it's depend because if I come from my background you see then I don't have problem with God being multiples right being have you have you actually I don't know considered thought about it analytically have have you analyzed those things about what the consequence of multiple Gods would be like K yeah okay I'll give an example consider this scenario okay um there's a God whether you want to call it godhead with multiple persons like in Christianity or even let's say more than one God yeah don't forget they all coequal they all powerful they all God after all there's a tree outside my house if one of the persons or one of the god from this multiple gods wanted the tree to be red in color and the other wanted to keep it as it is green in color what color would the tree be and why don't know because you see I don't know how God works so I think it's God's knowledge and his is God independent or not according to you can you explain what you mean independent independent means without any outside God is power God is power yeah not about power it's about independence so for example there are two independently and Powerful Gods they're both independent they're both powerful okay they both have a will then the question is whose will is going to to Prevail to determine the color of the tree they're both powerful remember they're both equally of course independent whose power is going to Prevail no what I whose will is going to Prevail yes what I'm thinking there that God with his knowledge they they know how it's work you see there are some things but they both have knowledge they both have will they both have power they both they both are independent okay but they they want different things since they are independent they're able to think independently so answer the question because this is a dilemma for the polyes yeah I cannot what I believe as I told you maybe they will understand each other and both of them like decide then if they understand each other that means they're not independent in their also and also has that distorts the first premise which is that they're in a disagreement so if they're in a disagreement and then they reconcile on one view that means one view triumph over the other yeah they have to compromise some they have to compromise on one of the views you know you see that is a problem I understand this yeah it's a dilemma it's it's something that you know it's a dilemma it's a problem isn't it isn't it nice just to have one God yeah who is in charge he you know you see the reason why I came to this Channel I I have been you know looking around internet and thanks much you are in the right channel you are in the right channel actually and and my wish is that if we can help you inshallah and make you a Muslim and for you to to lead really a good life you have a you will have you you will have uh a relation with your creator which is you give him his due rights and he gives you your due rights what do you say to that of course of course that's the reason why I'm here of course thank you very much you now you made you made my night now that's the question that I asked you if you believe that God is one is very important because to be honest with you if there is no more in the Quran Allah says if there is more than two than a God the the the world will be in chaos it won't be can you imagine can you imagine a God that want stand there and storms and and all sours and the other on want sunshine and and Breeze and that who's going to Prevail yeah I I get your point of course you see this is not the things I have been think about it same matter but just a small thing you see reason why this is my first time of course I will be coming back this is not something I would uh but the main reason why I'm here because it's also late here I was happy I Came In The Stream yes just a very small it's you see no problem no problem no problem Timo no problem but we we're trying to help you in here of course because the question the question of of belief and faith and that is very important people do not pay attention to it but once once a a person's death is upon them then they will see the the sour reality now we see we in Islam we believe in the one God as you know we call him Allah he is the creator he's omnipotent omniscient he is all powerful he is all knowledgeable he is the creator of everything so this God he doesn't have a son he did he was not begotten he doesn't beget he has no partner he has created you created the Angels created the heavens and earth and Earth and all he's asking of you is to worship Him Now The Way We Muslims worship we do our five daily prayers as you must have heard or must have seen we fast the month of Ramadan excess money we give in charity not all of it but a certain amount of 2.5% then once in a lifetime if you are physically and financially able you go to do a pilgrimage in mecah in in Mecca which is in Saudi Arabia now this isn't a nutshell what uh what a Muslim does and these are the rights that Allah is asking of us now there is also you have to be good to your own parents you have to be good to society in general you have to be a valuable member of Society is this something that resonates with you yes of course like the see uh I was not prepared for discuss some questions what I can there was uh if it's possible I can U put my question then of course we can go because I haven't thought about those things but you know your your initial question to be honest with you it's not something that you see today you know you you asked about the prisons of War you know today things there are different treaties and different uh agreements between governments so these things don't really apply so what you're looking at is something today doesn't even matter to be honest with you no but even if it did even if it did like I told you earlier the prisoners of war is something that is if you look at Islam if you look at the history of Islam the captives of War you know there were people uh who actually became Kings who became rulers of Nations that is the amount of Freedom that they achieved that this is the status that they had so these were the slaves at one point they did not even dream that they would become Kings yeah the mukes the m in entire entire Dynasty became Kings they were all basically at one point captives of War yeah so you see Islam has a buil-in system the name is let let just elaborate what I mean with the prison of War you see what I mean I compare you see this different thoughts in this you know Bible that's the reason for me to follow something like the reason why I told you I don't follow Bible is one of the reason is prison of Wars so I check into Islam how they treat I have read I have the thing is I saw one of your streams I think it was two weeks back there was a discussion about this prison of wars and I like you showed I think you showed one quote that in Islam at least when it's kep this you have a permission before I don't know if you remember you had short I think it was a Twitter from fared yeah what about it yeah I I like that quote because you see that's the question because I told you this this quote from the Bible I told you I don't understand this the one you're referring to yes yes I would like to elaborate you see in the Bible the I don't remember forget the Bible bro forget the Bible we you're done with it okay let's FOC I just want to yeah I want to know why I didn't like it you see in that verse I don't get to understand if the cap woman have any free will you think that's my as you can see from this quote you know it says very clearly here uh and this is um mentioned by one of the major Shafi Scholars Al halimi uh said that when commenting on Quran chapter 4:36 which speaks of the kindness to Slaves he says uh he says that if she dis if she disliked being touched or intercourse then he shouldn't touch her or have intercourse with her without her permission okay and this is something which is quite important because you know one thing is certain Islam does not permit rape okay and even in the even during war there's rules you can't just go and take a a prisoner of war and then make her basically your slave you can't do that this is allocated by the Amir by the uh the people in Authority there okay and there's so many rules to it like even there's another Hadith which says that if you hit a slave of yours then you have to free it there's another Hadith which says you cloth you you clothe them with the same clothes you wear you feed them the same food you eat but but it's not only that it's not only that yeah Islam only Islam Islam is the only religion that as for atonement for atonement yeah you you have to free slaves like let's say you commit certain um fasting if you f for example okay so if you commit a sin certain sins as as a conciliation with Allah as for you to reconcile with Allah you have to free slaves so Islam is the only is the only religion that actually asks you to go and free slaves actively I see the stre that was I I was like I I found some does does that answer your question from the Islamic perspective because the thing is you know the prisoners of War back then they really didn't have any rights it was amazed the the non-muslims were amazed when the Muslims were giving their rights to prisoners of War because back then most of them will be just hacked off their women will be kidnapped and basically made into literal slaves yeah yes you see after that death sorry that stream I look into it there's two Hadith which I can show you regarding this Co that's that's the reason why I'm here if you could clarify for me yeah summarize it what does the Hadith say uh I have this Hadith number here it's from uh let me see how you check there sah Muslim 2449 yeah what does it say no no no no no sorry no no not that sorry it's uh say bukari 4350 I mean bukari 4350 it's uh about when I think I can read it here if you want sorry yes the prophet peace be upon Him sent Ali to KH to bring Theus and I yeah yes this is the had to where the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam sends Ali to to Yemen to bring the Kos and then when Ali on the way back he some sahaba saw him like uh his head dribbling with water is that the one yes yes yes you you see the problem not the problem but because there is one more Hadith no no finish the had finish the no finish the Hadith finish so it's not what you're thinking it is finish it yeah it says that uh Ali had taken a bath after a sexual act with a slave girl from the allegedly allegedly allegedly yeah let him finish it let him finish it said to khid don't you see this when we reach the prophet peace be upon him I mentioned that to him he said oh B do you hate Ali I said yes he said do you hate him for he deserve more than that from Theos yeah from Theus he deserve more than that from Theos is a is a war booty just for people who don't know but yes but but you know no no it's can also be from it can because Ali because the the family of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam they have got the right for Theos so it could also because he sent him to Yemen to get the sakat the the the give outs yeah so it wasn't of War it wasn't from SPS of War but look you know in the had you know in the Hadith Timor they thought the b b thought that Ali took a woman for himself and slept with her from Theus all they've seen all they've seen they have seen him uh with his hair dribbling of water so they thought that he must have had sexual intercourse with her it's not definite that he had it's not definite so it was their suspicion basically their suspicion that's why that's why B got got angry and he hated Ali and they had an ex change but when he told the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam The Prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam said to him he has more than the than the then B said Ali became the most loved person to me after the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam so in there it's their perception it's their they thought that he did something but nowhere in the Hadith it says that he did does answer your question no I will come to this is a good explain what I mean because there's one more Hadith you see 2157 the reason I can just give you why because you know I've been Google about these things and so are we do we agree on theth of Al of no I I will come back to it I just want to give you the background information what I mean as I've understand that before you have a sexual act with the prison of war or captives it have to either go a period of like some time a month or a month not a month three three menes three menes three menes yeah yeah you three months yes and three months is can take and three months is can take three months yes so that this this AB da 2157 it speak about that that the there must be no intercourse with pregnant mov till she give birth to her child or with the one who is not pregnant do you know why do you know why in case in case that she comes that she is pregnant yeah yeah no there is one more Hadi as you told us it have to be uh we have to a waiting period before yes now back to this Hadith with Ali that's what I mean yeah because what I understand the Hadith he went the same night and he bring the captive and what they think of this Hadith he have a he had a sexual act so now did not he did not he did not the doesn't say as sexual intercourse it was their suspicion I thought you understood what the shik said you see this it's I I get this answer because why I mean I have a check in Islam QA this ction and there they answer it was a sexual act and what they what they give the answer why it was not a waiting period because they couldn't they answer that maybe that night was her last day of mens that's like the answer well that speculation that is speculation isn't it I don't know that's the reason why I'm here because they yeah yeah so you have two possible reconciliations what Islam Q said and what the she said what's the issue yeah what exactly is is a concern and I don't understand this um I've noticed this from most Hindus when they come here they ask about anything that is related to sex always like 90% of the time what is this obsession with sex with you guys you reject you accept and reject religions because of this seriously instead of discussing God you go on these things I don't know why yeah you know it's it's because you see when how old how old are you Tamor how old are you I am 20 in my 20s okay are you married no no no I yeah it's always the single guys who come here and they talk about sex no no no it's I I told you from my you're not the first one trust me look at the P record on this channel every almost 90% of the Christ sorry Hindus who come here they come with this question about the rightand possess okay but they never talk about Krishna and he's uh you know he's his girlfriends whom he wanted to see naked at the at the river where they were bathing what do you make of that no that's the reason why I don't follow Hinduism that's no but would you condemn that would you condemn Krishna I'm not following so do youna if it's some act I don't what you say even though you're not a Hindu which you claim you're not you are not willing to condemn chrishna for his sexual acts that he has committed but you will question the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him why do you guys come why do you why do you do this why you said you left Christianity because of that I doubt you were a Christian at all I think you're still a Hindu and that's the reason you don't want to condemn Krishna just admit it man don't come with this I'm interested in Islam and all that okay no no uh if you were truly interested in Islam trust me the first thing you'll be questioning is about Allah about God and comp yes compare Christianity or Hinduism whatever background you come from your first question on your mind will be about God that is a sincere person no of course wait wait when a Hindu comes to me with this question you know I get this six sense feeling that you will not condemn Krishna and every time it comes true no the reason tell me tell me why would you not why would you not condemn a person who is womanizing because that is your main concern isn't it your main concern is about womanizing why would you not condemn Krishna tell me no of course you see when you are doubtful about everything you don't know what is I'm telling you you know the story trust me Tim what about the immoralities of Shiva that that became that became Ram's wife no no um we talking about vishnu's Incarnation yes do you condemn do you condemn Vishnu yeah I'm trying to answer what I mean there when I'm doubtful about all of the religions you're not just doubtful bro you're more than that come on you are a Hindu and you want to come and pretend like you're not admit it man why you guys are ashamed of your religion be a man say you're a Hindu and you got questions about Islam then we'll respect you but you come here pretending like you're not okay you were Christian you left Christianity now interested in Islam okay no mention whatsoever about Hinduism but when we question you directly you don't want to condemn them why the double standards no if you want to put it that way of course I I am looking for I want to hear from you if you condemn any of the Hindu gods who who sexualize or sorry who were who were actually you know like veniz and running after women you know Shiva rapes moini literally rapes I can show you the passages would you condemn Shiva yeah if it's written there I can condemn of course I want to hear you yeah I can condemn I bring it for you you haven't read it actually you went online to wait wait wait you went online to Google about Hadith about the right-and possesses you went to the nitty-gritty details you know the Hadith numbers you know everything but you haven't actually read about Hinduism why because he's interested in Islam you know so that's why he wants to become a Muslim honest with you you know if you were sincere your question would be revolving around God about the scriptures and so on tber where did you find this argument this is very very this is very common bro among they discuss this all day it's all about sex yeah you know sub as soon as he said Ali knew it's straight away where he's going me tell me why did he not study Hinduism see I told you in my family we are not so practicing neither I family look no one in your family is a Muslim but you went looking for Hadith no no has he didn't go looking for actually he went I think I heard him say he went on a Reddit post if you're interested inam yeah interested in Islam you don't go to some subreddit Muslim yeah um islamophobic website you you read the Quran right have you read the Quran no no you see this you haven't read the Quran but you're going to how are you interest brother this this does not make any sense like yeah that's why I'm saying look if you were sincere you know last thing you'll be going is to look for Islam in a islamophobic place whether it's a website whether it's um it's a channel whatever it is you know that's the last thing you'll be doing most likely you went to this Reddit which is islamophobic am I right yes that was you see that was the reason why how can you be a sincere person man come on tell me look if I want to study about Hinduism the last place I'll go to is ex- Hindus or those people who are hinduphobic because I know I'm not going to get true information from there yeah but we have got nothing to we have got nothing to hide Allah we don't but he does yeah he does but not us alhamdulillah we can't answer anything man I said look if you came here as a Hindu and you asked us the same questions we wouldn't have a problem fact you're concealing your religion just so that we'll be nice with you is really really pathetic honestly it just shows I can I can apologize about that of course no but you shouldn't have done that in the first place be sincere and be honest if you want respect be sincere even your own family will not respect you if you lie to them openly like that wait wait so so T how do you know how many chapters there are in the Quran no I don't think he knows anything bro no no there's a lot more than that but but also this this just goes to show you the reason why I asked you that is if I were to ask you what the is for a concubine you're able to tell us but like like come on what is this yeah it just shows how deep they go and look here man if you're really interested in sex get married that's the best way to do it instead of going to websites and porn size and I don't know where else you go to satisfy your urge just get married man it's good for you for your good your mind wrong understanding my favorite subject the the AI the a the a way it's late at night in Europe wherever is yeah so I think the Shiva thing is good so he said he's going to condemn Shiva let's see if he does that okay let's say if he does that can we bring that up by the way have you heard of moini yes you see I can yes course okay so do you condemn do you condemn Shiva and Vishnu you see we can take it next time of course you see it's late of course we can oh yeah of course next time come on if you know it condemn it now cuz you see your bubble is burst now honestly I want to know why do you guys do this why can't you just admit you're a Hindu from the beginning do you guys do this on every do the Muslim streams to make them feel bad about it bro this is not the kind of stream okay here you'll be exposed we have learned about Hinduism more than some of the Hindus I would say so what you bring to us from the Quran or the Hadith you know we'll show you 100 times worse things in your own scriptures including the bhat G which you respect I get you I get your point of course you see my aim is not to get in debate I am here to understand but if you yeah but you shouldn't you shouldn't do that you shouldn't you shouldn't come you shouldn't be a wolf in in uh lamps uh shapes clothing shapes clothing you know no I have my reason why I didn't tell but but the main point is I want to learn about be hon if you want to learn just be honest say I'm a Hindu I want to learn about Islam and we'll teach yes yes yeah of course so what was the point of you concealing your relation from she I I like the answer that's the reason why I yeah he would have given you the same answer if you said you were a Hindu and you want to know about this Hadith W you would have given you the same answer no I I I I accept it yes I understand it okay good at least uh we appreciate that you admitted and we hope you'll learn from this in the future be sincere if you want people to respect you then you should be sincere with them not don't come timore you now in Islam alhamdulillah we don't have to hide anything the the reason the reason being because it's a true religion it's Allah's religion and when when we when people ask it doesn't matter what it is you will only hear one one thing which is the truth from us you know as Allah is our witness so so don't don't do that again you know no I apologize but of course next stream maybe then I get in to learn more try to learn more thank Youk make sure you keep the same name so we recognize you of course tamour it's a it's a per Persian name so yes tamore is a Persian name yes yeah it's a Persian name thank you very much all right Tam all right take care right who else is in the back Studio okay am are you Am [ non-Muslim from Muslim family - from Morocco ] :: [[ was brought up in France ; to be a Muslim very very soon inshâ'Allah ]] [[ Ibn Hazm interprets his dream ]] there need to unmute yourself hello hello there how are you good good good how about yourself yeah we got you in earlier but I think I don't know you're you got disconnected because we didn't remove you yeah yes yes I think I got disconnected or something that's why I said I was removed no problem where are you calling from uh Morocco okay that's nice are you a Muslim no not yet as I explained I just moved back to Morocco I was not living here that's why I got interested you you're not Moroccan but you in Morocco yeah no no I am Moroccan oh you are Moroccan okay what what are you like an atheist agnostic you believe in some other religion what's your honestly I don't even know I was just like I would say I didn't care enough to say it okay are your parents Muslim uh yes they were okay alhamdulillah so why are you not a Muslim uh honestly like uh I don't know how to explain but uh they I wouldn't blame them or anything like they simply would not give me they would tell me like they there is Islam or anything but you know they are like the kind that you should search for yourself find yourself do think right yourself yeah are you the only non-muslim in your family no your siblings no no my sister is Muslim sorry my sister is Muslim I have yeah that's why I'm asking is is everyone in your family Muslim except you yeah no uh yeah in my small family yeah okay okay so you're the only non-muslim and how long have you been a non-muslim uh I don't know I would say most of my life how long I would say most of my life like I'm 30 are you bro uh 32 32 you can't be most of your life you must have been a Muslim up to some point especially in Morocco bro I wasn't living I wasn't living here I just got back I wasn't denar where where were you living if you don't mind me asking France in France okay yeah right but look the rest of your family are Muslim this this is a problem this is a problem of lots of the so-called migrants like Algerian Tunisian Moroccans in France in France a lot of them like especially with France being secular like a lot of them don't pay attention to uh so so so um uh um what's what's the purpose of of your call are you are you seeking are you seeking the truth are you do you do you wna do you want to become a Muslim and and find your way back to Allah uh I would say that I have a I had a little experience lately okay and I started looking more and more into the the religion of my parents alhamdulillah alhamdulillah alhamdulillah that's really a good thing that's really good listen bra listen listen look you know at the end of the day this life is short it doesn't matter how many years you're going to spend you you might you'll spend a thousand years at the end of the day you're going to die now when you die you're going to face your maker and your maker me I have I was brought up in France and France was this or the other is not going to work out exactly you know it's either Paradise or Hellfire and we don't want you to go to the Hellfire my my good friend we don't want that for you what we want for you we want for you inshallah to be a Muslim and to be a good Muslim and to strive to strive in your life to do good be good with your par are are your parents still alive my mother is yeah okay so we want you to be good to your mother to be to to be obedient to her to help her to to look after her want you to be good to be a good member of society want you to pray your five prayers to fast your Ramadan inshallah to go om and even to go Haj you know especially look Subhan Allah you're living in Morocco so you hear the five times aan and you see people going to the Masjid and now in Morocco it's not just the elderly that go to the Masjid a lot of the young people younger than you and your age that you'll find them five times a day in the prayer from F until so so there is a lot for you to to to do that so so do you believe kind of do you believe in Allah yeah uh I honestly I will just give you a little explanation so you get my my no problem no problem no problem so basically as I said I honestly didn't care about any religion okay you would tell me like if there I if you ask me if there is a Creator I would honestly say Yes And as you as you know it is like it is called in fetra yes yes that's true that's true I was like I would say like there is a a Creator but I wouldn't go more into like religion is the correct thing to follow or anything I would say that Creator created everything sorry can I quickly ask you a question you said your your mom's alive uh when did your dad pass away uh when I was uh 15 or 16 if I Rec okay because you see without a male role model it's becomes difficult especially places like like France you know like yeah it's it's it has a huge impact on the children so I understand where you're coming from you know not easy for a single mother to look after a teenager and probably falling in the wrong honestly yeah so it does all add up yeah sorry carry on carry on just wanted to yeah so uh basically what happened is like uh one day I was with a with a friend like in the city which where we lived in PRS like let's say there are a lot of immigrants so many were on Muslims and everything it was like a friend even though he was a very old person he was like giving me sometimes guidance and everything like one time I found him like reading the the the Quran and they he didn't have like the the the physical copy it was just like reciting yes and I speak Arabic Just for information uh so I told him like what are you doing I was like I'm reciting the Quran I was like why why I wasn't like why are you reciting it I was like more into why are you uh I don't know what to say in English like why do you me why are you memorizing that thing to recite it like like that it was like because his answer is like and I remember very well like I was like uh I would say I was like 20 or 21 and they told me uh it is because uh God made it easy to to to remember yes that's true and I was like okay if you say so and he said like uh just some he was like someday like take the a copy of Quran in Arabic since you speak Arabic read something like two three times and see in few years if you remember it or not that's all I told me for some reason like I I simply was not interested in in that thing that period of time but uh I remember like after a few years I took like a copy of Quran and I read through some passages and there read through the I'm sorry I don't know the name of the of every Sor and everything but I remember the one when where like God is telling us who he is like they call it thank you so I read through it and I for some reason like I was remembering it like I I wasn't forgetting it and the like uh I would say like uh two three months ago I was just like that's the personal experience I had it is a dream that I had like an old I just explained the dream like I had an old lady as she was like choking me and she was like telling me to read what what I remember from the Quran and I was for some reason in the dream like reading the same s and it's been like it's been like I would say like 10 years from where from the last time I read it and they still remember it to be you know that you know the lady that was choking you you know who is that no I don't that's sprayer okay that sprayer choking you listen do you speak Moroccan dialect yeah I do okay I got goosebumps just listening to that so so Ibn Hazm's sincere advice in Moroccan dialect so uh foree foreign fore hi so I have just like a few questions if you okay inshallah when I answer your questions inshallah you take your shahada with us inah inshallah so fire what's the question inshallah yeah uh so basically my questions is about the like uh like I was reading uh I still didn't finish reading the whole Quran I read I did read through like some of it okay majority uh like one of the main reasons I like there is that dream that I explain and there is also the fact that that like I did search through some other religions okay many of them like honestly didn't make a single sense to me I don't want to go down on any religion but it didn't make any sense to me and the the Quran was like challenging uh it was like on every single sah there is like a a challenge and the the main challenge that uh like many would say like the the Quran is saying like if you find any error and it it it is not from God but to me the the one that's stuck in my mind mind is like I don't know what's the name of the Surah uh but there is a Surah that's that's on like on many verses it says it's called it's 28 27 okay thank you so just that verse do you understand do you understand what do you understand what it means uh I think that it means that what which which signs of your lord you do not believe okay I was not understanding it that way I understood it's of gods you didn't believe it yeah so this is is better for me uh but uh there is also the fact that uh I saw that uh in Islam you need to to follow the the Quran and also the the the Sunnah which means the of the Prophet yeah yeah and I was just like in the Quran it says that it is like preserved from God but uh it doesn't say the same about uh the had I don't know how can I be sure that it is no the also the also because the also are kept Allah has made it for people like imari Imam Muslim Imam Abu da imami and all of these people they have studied Hadith and they have actually preserved the Hadith for us so we know the weak Hadith from the from theah Hadith from the Hass Hadith so we know all the different categories of the okay so so the the also are preserved but not like as the Quran because some people try to to to to give us some which are not said by the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam but from the chain of ntion and from the text itself from the text of the Hadith we got to we got to understand and to know and to be absolutely sure that the Hadith is a weak Hadith this Hadith is a Lie the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam never said it that that this Hadith is sound this Hadith is authentic so we know how to we know how to study these and we know how to know the the real from the fake okay uh I also have like just one other question and if I get the answer like let's do yeah but after this question we take shahada inshah yeah insh insh it is just related to what the what in English is called the Antichrist Antichrist yeah yeah we call it in in Arabic theel yeah in Arabic is okay so uh basically I was just looking I I wasn't really looking through the Hadi yet I was just interested in finishing the the the Quran and uh for some reason like I found like some discussion about it and I just like swept through the the the Hadith uh it says that uh that creature the the D is going to come on and the the the diff the the the only way for us to to know that is is not and not God according to that Hadith I may be wrong like if I say something wrong I'm really sorry no no no problem no problem I know the of the if you just tell me if you just give me description I'll tell you the Hadith yeah it says that uh uh the prophet said uh to to differentiate between the the and the and God since people are going to follow yeah the is is is one eye one eye he's one eye yeah but it doesn't mean it doesn't mean one eye like it doesn't mean one eye like the uh uh meaning he has got one eye eye in the forehead no no no it means that he has got two eyes but one eye one eye he can't look from it he is he is he is blind in one eye okay yeah so he he is he has got two eyes but he's blinding one yeah that's not really the the what was blocking me is like uh in the Quran it is saying clearly that uh God has not p like him in general yeah for some reason like so for some reason like if it already the Quran is telling us like uh there is nothing like him in general I don't see why in theth would okay I'll explain it to you only the ey look you see you see the the verse of Quran that I have told you he has he's all hearing all seeing so if he's all seeing it means he has got eyes but don't look at it that your eyes or my eyes are like the eyes of Allah we know that Allah can see and he has got eyes but we do not know how these eyes are let me give you an example you know for example the the chair a chair Cy yeah you know we say the legs of the Cy okay are the legs of the chair are they similar to yours no I know that they are not similars and I know they are not similar to yours so Allah says about himself that he Sam he hears and he is B he sees so we affirm that to Allah we affirm it to Allah but we do not we do not say the how how it is how how Allah sties and that but what the prophet sallallah wasam said he was he was talking about the and he said to to he he he's he's got eye and your lord is not a blind one so this is theith of the Prophet Sall and there is no contradiction in there no it's not a contradiction I'm not saying there is a a contradiction per se I'm saying that the the Quran already confirms that God has nothing like him it is not just like for the for the eyes you know like it doesn't resemble any of his creatures and uh to go and uh it is like a a a redundancy and it is like lowering a little bit of the standards that is no no it's it's not it's not the the the the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam was given a difference between because the reason why when the Dalal will come he will say that he's God and and the problem is people will believe him do you know this no I didn't know that okay when the theal is going to come he's going to say to people that he's God and people will believe him he will he will take somebody and he will kill them and he will bring them back to life Allah is goingon to give him this power why as FNA so so that people will know the cfer from the believer so the Believers will not believe in him even if he kills them but the people who have got doubts and they are not on good path of Iman they will believe in it him so because of the Prophet sallallah alaihi wasallam warning us against him and he is a false god he is not a true God he gave the res he he compared made the comparison not that he is belittling from the from the Majesty of Allah but just to to make us look he will be God but remember God is not blind do you understand now does it make sense to you now yeah okay because the himself he will claim to be God okay right and and the main the main point of the Hadith is that Allah is not not deficient right he's not he doesn't have one deficient eye in the same sense as um also another way you would know that he he is a false Messiah is the fact that he's claiming to be God in the sense of God incarnate on on Earth which is corrupt right is part of is even though he's going to come with Miracles as the said the fact that he's not coming with proper allows you to see that he's he's not um actually representing Allah because just in my mind like uh just to give a little explanation in my mind like it's it is like in the beginning like if already did like him saying that he is God is like not believable my yeah but he will he will say that he's God and you would not believe how many people will follow him okay because to me like and the Hadith doesn't just talk about his eyes so let's actually look at the Hadith see what he says that'll give you a better idea thank you to why it is said that it's a curly hair and he's because you know I think many people also say that oh this is metaphoric or something he it's not metaphoric it's exactly as he is yeah that's what I just saying so some people assume that it's metaphoric but the Hadith is quite clear that it is not and this is in number 4320 so let me just bring it on the screen so we can actually read it the Hadith is very clear you know it'll give you an idea as to what exactly is being conveyed here so this is um Alit reported the messenger of Allah s alhi wasallam said verily I have told you so much about the false Messiah that I fear you will not understand verily the false Messiah is a short man pigeon toad curly head with one eye that is blind neither protuding nor sunken if you are confused about him then know that your lord does not have one eye yes okay so even though the last sentence says this but you look at all the other deficiencies in him clearly shows you yeah curly hair and all is telling you about some person who is you know only who's gon to claim that he is God yeah so there are a lot of Hadith about the uh about this theel and one of them is also where he shows people you know paradise and hellfire the Hellfire will be the real Paradise well when I say Paradise I mean like place or place in this world and the paradise will be fire Hashim Hashim just just wait uh brother um yes look at the Hadith look at the Hadith the the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam said verily I have told you so much about the false Messiah that I fear you will not understand even though he told them a lot he the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam because of his love for his umah he wanted to make even more certain and be so assertive to actually what does he look like and that our Lord our for God exalted be he he's not nothing like him look I fear you will not understand verily the false Messiah then he start giving the explanation okay yeah all right now brother now brother listen let's inshallah take your shahada and go inshallah and have a wash and there is what what time is fjer in in in Where You Are in Morocco I'm not sure will be five it will be 5 o' yeah you can Google it always yeah yeah okay yeah so inshallah pray he will hear the Adan inshallah he will have the so that SHAHADAH time again !! brother so brother um repeat after me okay Allah Allah alhamdulillah yes alhamdulillah it's like as if your mom has given birth to you again Subhan Allah so so inshallah be on the right path learn about the dean because you have wasted so many so many years learn about the dean keep company with people who are on the dean you know stay away from the Bad Company and all of that alhamdulillah you are in in in a country that at least you can hear the aan it's not like France you can inshallah you can go there are plenty of masss whever whever ever the prayer comes you can pray nobody's goingon to nobody Subhan Allah will tell you why you praying or anything like that so first first thing go and tell your mom that you have become a Muslim I'm sure she'll be overjoyed and your sister and your sister and the rest of your family they they don't know if I am not Muslim honestly okay don't don't say don't say anything don't say anything keep it keep it to yourself inshallah but but show them that you show them that pray and stuff like that yeah yeah I through how to pray and everything inah inshah may Allah keep you firm on the dean you know this is a great blessing uh you should you know go and do sujud to Allah subhana wa tala and thank him you know with the with all your heart with all your soul and thank him for this blessing which Allah has gifted you again which you had lost you know it's a huge blessing you must have done something right in your life where Allah has blessed you again after you left Islam so thank him as much as possible do a St far as much as possible you know all these things as a Muslim and please do pray as the Sheik said it's a huge uh responsibility Islam is not something the Jenna is not free you know it comes with the blessing of Allah with the mercy of Allah but provided you also are obedient to Allah please do that and uh we are here if you got any questions do email us every Thursday you know yeah or listen if you have got any questions and you want to get in touch it's we have got the uh uh look this is the email dawise gmail.com okay yeah okay in you send me a message I'll provide you the shik's email address as well in okay thank you so much okay alhamdulillah you know that's one of the benefits of moving to a Muslim country as well isn't it alhamdulillah because you can lose your Iman and this is not something which is I didn't want to go without Shah tonight I know I know it's past my bedtime but I'm still yes you got both your wishes you got a s and you got a well you know what no no you know what I say to you I had the Sani on Sunday and honestly I was me and Sheik Muhammad and I had him and I got him with the aguri he didn't want to talk about the aori yeah you love your oh alhamdulillah alhamdulillah right so we are not taking any more callers except for the people in the back studio uh so for everything ahed here are you there oh Suhail Ahmed [ Muslim ] :: [[ shares his views on a previous caller Temor; rise of nak*dness is commonly observed in people of other religions ]] yesam alum this is the first time for me soam to everyone we'll go easy on you don't worry thank you you do excellent excellent work that was beautiful what just happened alhamdulillah and the thing is is one of the previous uh guys that was on and basically he was um you know when they impli that our blessed religion who that we are indebted to Allah and the Prophet Muhammad for they imply that there's a let's say intimate in inuendos as part of the religion yes right and it it makes me burn inside I'll be honest with you because it doesn't encourage this whatsoever our religion it's a graceful beautiful alhamdulillah religion yeah and if if you look at the Christians the Jews and the West in general let's say and even the Indians the Hindus yeah the Hindus of the Kamasutra the um western western under Christian and Jews they have their let's say corn industry yeah yes we Have No Such Thing alhamdulillah so how how how can they put that accusation on us yeah that we are on the inuendos and you know like the four wives means know you know brother what happened he was hiding he was hiding his religion because he knows how how deficient is his religion and how easy for us to start peeling layers after layer after layer but as you have said as soon as as soon as he he we didn't spend 10 minutes with him and we knew where he was coming from so alhamdulillah they can't try to hide but will always uncover their their their Mischief alhamdulillah yes yes alhamdulillah these perverts always project their their self their own you know insecurities this is it they're showing themselves up yeah it's basically they are just projecting their own evils and they don't even realize that we'll cast them out quite easily yeah because like I told him you know like every other Hindu comes on a stream the only thing on his mind is sex and most of them are single young people you know and they got time on the hand they come on the streams they go from one Muslim stream to another you know then they go to this ex-muslim streams where they learn more more rubbish and more profanities you know and they come and just regurgitate all that here over here I mean who would go to Hadith learn how much the ID period for a prisoner of war is like I mean seriously who does that well it's just these specific things that they horning in on and they're thinking yeah let's nitpick out these throw them maybe it will affect someone you know what I mean we've got we've got answers to all of that stuff alhamdulillah yes we do and you know this is this is what I was thinking what struck me was that how do they have the audacity to say these things to us when they are the ones who have Industries in this bti yes in this you know what I mean yeah they ne ne I'm saying they are neck deep in it yes this is uh something like I said they're projecting all the time yeah this bunch of perverts you know they just come here and it is it is there this they don't know how rich Islam is you know we have been through this they're not the first to do this to us you know so Allah has given us not only the hikma but also the courage to deal with people like them you know like these um low life comebacks yes alhamdulillah and it's the the thing the thing is is something we as musl you know like obviously alhamdulillah you brothers are very well versed in this but for people like me who are less versed thoughts pop into our heads alhamdulillah I can say that at least when I look for an answer and then I watch your videos I mean we're going there's a couple of videos floating around going back a good seven years uh on YouTube of yours brother Hashim that I've watched and even the EF da Brothers they give a lot of answers um that I don't necessarily ask myself anyway to be honest with you because these things they don't feas me alhamdulillah as a Muslim I'm adamant that we are on the H the truth and uh when these people come out and they imply certain things just to you know pull out a person psychology and they won't they wouldn't be it won't work on you yourselves because you're very vers on this but people with you know less knowledge perhaps maybe they want to ask a few questions these are the best places for answ alhamdulillah we expose them to everyone to see we won't let them run Havoc we will expose them we will expose them rest assured that we will expose them brother so I understand your point I mean look their purpose is to not only to Mock and malign Islam but to provoke you at the same time to see how you cuz they know exactly what buttons to push and when they come on our show because of our experience we know how to push their buttons as well it's it's a two-way street you know over here yes it is and you know when that hits them in the face they don't they don't know what to do you know whether it's in Speaker's Corner or whether it's on the streams and in my line of work I come across a lot lot of people as well and uh some um basically do ask um questions of uh traditionalism in Islam and you people you deme your women by keeping them at home and alhamdulillah we know I do know enough in a way to answer them in a befitting manner uh but this these perversions basically are to how to say to one person I said look how are you classing us as perverts when it comes to grooming gangs and all that stuff when you every weekend there are hundreds of reports up and down the country of harassment the women yeah and you in this free Society these domestic violence units these um sex offender units and all that stuff they're not being made for the Muslims they're being made for your own population so what does that say about you you know you if if if you're going to do certain if you're going to behave a certain way and then you're going to turn around and say to those all that you you Muslims or you're like this if we're like this why are you the ones doing everything they should be reading the papers and see what the churches are doing let alone exactly exactly and you know what I I I have actually done local newspapers that have basically um shown certain offenders English ones yeah I keep them just in case someone turns around and says a big too much and I throw that in his face and I'll say look does that look like a Muslim to you there was this guy who went know where we used to work man the GU had a book this tick of newspaper cutouts of English offenders in that way kind of thing yeah and uh he he would put it in the faces of the these um accusers let's call them and they wouldn't know where to put their face so alhamdulillah I've noticed that even the fiercest people non-muslim people who come on they say something that sounds off alhamdulillah there's answers for it they get the answers and they don't know where to put their face afterwards alhamdulillah but but they will still go back on their own streams and uh who's that guy uh Avery Avery or something he's called the African guy was a Christian what about him on his stream he had a title in behind him hovering above his head about the marriage of AA and I've gone on there and I've said a few things to him not I'm not a derogatory person I don't swear of anything yeah obviously yeah just to provoke and I said bro change the flipping Record Man change the record the amount of times this has been answered is this the best you can do is this the really the best you can do about you know and we can start pulling out it is the best they can do and it's lame it's actually lame their best is you know they should they should worry about the churches turning into pups and night well exactly exactly there's a lot of churches no no no no turn into mosques turn into MOS I'm gonna say yeah when where I am um in the north northwest I'm telling you so many churches and um there's been pubs as well that have been closed for months and months pubs have tur into mids now because Sellers and they've got sellers and that so lots of lots of people are buying pubs now and turning them into Mass alhamdulillah yes lots of stor space from what they used to use and alhamdulillah we use for something you know the best person uh the best thing it can be used for and somebody goes to me me oh I feel um you know can I can I talk to you about something and I said yeah go ahead and he goes you know um churches what if it feels like something's being taken away from us because you Muslims you're turning churches into masks and then I said to we M these are legitimate sales it's not like we've come and said oh we like this building let's take it is a legitimate sale that's the first thing no no next next time you should ask them why was it put in sale in the first place well this is what I said to him I actually said to him they're empty in the first place so much so that uh you know what in somewhere there's a massive one right it's it's got a big complex and they've turned into Flats yeah but the church still has it but they can't keep it as just a church because they just don't have the people to go there yeah said to him our places of worship at 6 in the morning morning like here is 6 jamat there'll be people there at 6 in the morning when do you see people at church at 6 in the morning there are actually some man but you know it's it's like go once in a year like on Christmas day or something go yeah five times a day alhamdulillah there will always be a congregation in the Masjid and um you know we go and join them as much as possible right and I said you don't have this devotion are you is the West is from Northwest oh Northwest yeah okay is it White Haven no no no uh White Haven where's that um basically Northwest of England um yeah there about 40 minutes from Manchester sorry New Haven New Haven not White Haven New Haven New Haven yeah Rings the B Yeah so basically yeah about 40 minutes from Manchester okay alhamdulillah and U we've alhamdulillah um there's a good few towns here which have big um Muslim um areas and it it's just mad how the native population burns when we legitimately follow the rules and we attain land yeah without Force it's a transaction alhamdulillah they built a beautiful mosque after years in two places one where in my town now and one is about 8 miles away that's oh that's beautiful yeah and it's the problem the problem is when you have the far right spreading all this propaganda that they're taking our jobs and our homes and whatnot you know they're getting all these benefits and we are not I mean look at the record of the people here you know like many people if they are educated and they get jobs uh then that's understandable but if you're not going to get education and you're then obviously you're going to get get a good job especially when you ask them okay why you're not getting a job the guy goes oh because I've got a criminal record you know so how would you blame an immigrant for your criminal record you know true it's crazy it's like you want everything and but you don't want to follow the law at the same time it's it's crazy yeah they did this documentary that I watched it was from about s eight years ago and basically what happened was they took they got eight English people and they put a pair of people into each business yeah two 4 6 eight two two went into a restaurant two went onto a farm um two went into a factory see and I can't remember where the other two went and they they they just didn't they didn't stick with it so this is like a diversity of age in this group yeah some were young some were old the ones on the farm they couldn't be B doing what they were doing and there were polish and um um polish Hungarian or something else workers there as well yeah and uh they were proper going for it picking asparagus yeah and uh the English ones they they just after a bit they stopped turning up same with the lads who were in the restaurant and the factory ones they had the audacity to actually say to the foreign people there um would you like it if I was in your country and working and these guys are thinking well I don't think we mind you know what I mean if we if if you came and you were the government needed you and they you you came over yeah which is what happened with us and they said look your government call us over we don't come here ourselves you know we come here we look we don't mess around we don't do anything stupid yeah but would you like it if I came in you know what I mean that same thing you you should have they should have told them actually you did colonize most of the world well yeah they don't look at unall for and you didn't do the work you made the people do the work made them your slaves you know robbed them looted them uh the British museum is quite a good uh you know place where if you need any evidence it's just the double standards most of them don't don't think it true actually and to be honest you know we we we know there are individuals like that but most British people that have come across they are quite understandable they like this crazy so we we have to we have to understand that there are both kind of people there are the good English people and the good British people who do understand the situation of both the immigrants and the locals and then there are this um bigots who don't actually work don't want to work keep blaming pointing fingers you know winging all day um drinking all day taking drugs whatnot and then they want to blame everybody else so yes they're two kind of people so let's not uh give the I'm not telling you but just for the people or the audience who are listening there are we we are not saying all the English people all the no yeah there are a lot of people who are racist and they come up in all colors and all different backgrounds and yeah from all civilizations you know we don't say that we are we have I mean there are no Black Sheep within our communities so yeah just just to give you a general impression that this is yeah no that's alhamdulillah fair enough and the thing other thing is the we going to close soon because it's nearly it's very late it yeah okay n hours so come come early next time and we can have a chat inshah inshah okay thank you for having meum okay right guys we're going to close soon so make it I'll give you guys 2 minute each okay come on looking came Looking [ revert Muslim - from New York, USA ] :: asks what Deen actually has meant by saying that John Fontain has not won the debate against Avery last time as [Music] well how are you ah doing good how you doing Shake yeah not bad alhamdulillah how is it going ah doing good good good good very Advanced now this brother took sh with us right yes oh yes um I promise shaken that came back and I did it okay you you're doing all right yeah oh yeah absolutely okay did you manage to connect with your local Masid or your local team of people who can help you out inshallah oh yes um you know I love knowledge so you know I always make sure I do you know everything the right way take advantage of all the internet and then you know computer is in the information age so you know usually if you want it you can actually get it alhamdulillah but if you if you are in doubt of something you know DWI at gmail.com and get in touch with us inshallah yes absolutely I just had a question for Brother Dean if he was available uh he's there I think Dean are you awake yep I'm here yes okay hey how you doing Dean yeah I'm doing good yourself oh doing good I just wanted to ask you a quick question so I watched the uh what is it um the episode with Brother John Fontaine and then I noticed that what is it I'm not sure if you made a mistake when you said he he didn't win that debate do you have any doubt like how was he how did he lose it no so um what I I didn't say he lost the debate what I said was that um uh essentially what I was trying to say is that I disagreed heavily with like his position and even if like Avery or any Christian wants to claim that they won that I I personally don't think it's a defend like it's a really defendable position regardless so they're not doing anything right uh what they need to do is uh actually defend or actually attack sorry attack the position that I laid out during the debate but I spoke to um I spoke to Brother John Fain afterwards I'm more U I understand his position a bit more now and I think um in coming discussions and debates as well as when his book comes out I think it'll be more clear like as to what his position is I I think I did have a um wrong perspective of what his position was because it's not yeah if you're going to be laying out like a really uh intricate position like that uh it's going to require um more than just a debate but when I did when I did speak to monco um I understood his position more I still don't accept it I still don't like personally think it's as tenable as the VII defended uh however yeah I do retract my statement uh it was uh it was uh yeah yeah I I shouldn't had made such a statement but I I know I know where indicated that that he lost though I I just made the point that I don't I don't believe it's defendable yeah should better words let's put it that way yeah okay no problem I actually follow him a lot so that's why you know I was um you know just clarification but thank you very much for clarifying that yeah of course yeah of course and and listen just the main point for why I don't believe it's tenable it's just on the point of um it not being historically tenable right so yeah that was just like the main point yes definitely thank you so much Pano so he was waiting in the background for that long for that question aldah okay uh right so we got our last caller sorry just before I leave because I'm gonna have to leave them because I actually have um yeah that's fine that's okay no problem bro he's the last caller so you know we wait two minutes inshah and then we'll finish that's with you that's okay okay Abdul Abdel el Hamdaoui [ Muslim - from the Netherlands; originally from Morocco ] :: asks if a Muslim is still a Muslim if he does not pray salah [[ deeni company is imperative ]] hamedi hwi I I had just question to our where are you calling from brother from Holland from Holland okay yes but I am in Moran guy alhamdulillah that's fine no problem I had a question to you can answer I um I don't know if he can answer if you can answer it but I just yeah yeah go ahead just just ask your question brother I am if someone doesn't pray but he is a Muslim so he believes in Allah he believes in our prophet and he believe in the day day of judgment everything but he doesn't pray is he a Muslim well the the scholars they differ in this in this bit if he if he for example they all agree on one thing if he does where for example he denies prayers as a pillar of Islam then he's a cafer without any any doubt but if he someone who believes in prayers and he believes no if he just allow me to finish brother if if he is someone who believes in he believes he knows that prayer is a must and he should pray but he's just kind of like lazy and that then the scholars have deferred IM Malik said he'll be put in jail until uh until he uh he makes Toba no Imam Abu hanifah said in jail until he makes Toba for Imam Ahmed IM Ahmed he says that he's a cfir and shaf and Malik also def but only IM only Imam Ahmed who say that he is a cafir and he has got will which support him you know so so this is this is the situation okay okay thank you very much uh Sher is itar is it clear it is clear it's clear but uh yeah must I say yeah what was the reason for you asking this question was it for your friend for somebody else yes yes he is a he's a Muslim guy Mor he do fasting but he's very lazy and praying and if he's yeah yeah if he's lazy if he's lazy if he's lazy we still Muslim we still class him as a Muslim and but make Dua for him may Allah subhah wa tala guide him you know and sometimes people sometimes people it just like through ignorance and through laziness and stuff like that but do Dua for him inshallah and you know try to take him to the Masjid with you and stuff like that maybe inshallah he you never know but don't give up hope for him yeah yeah may Allah guide all of us to that which is pleasing to him you know there's actually there's there's actually a Hadith where it says about the Hypocrites you know that they are guaranteed security and Immunity from being fought by the Muslims as long as they perform their prayers okay so even the even this for the you know there were people who were monics and they would go around claiming that they are Muslims but you know they are actually mafics but then they were guaranteed safety as long as they prayed but if they abandon the prayers then there's no more security for them and that's how they would this comes from the Hadith in where it says the obligation the pack between us meaning the Muslims and the maafi is a prayer so whoever abandons it it has indeed committed kuur which means they have become disbelievers now this is abandoning it on purpose you know like obligatory prayer prayer and this is meant especially in the context of this monics here okay so I think there's a lot which actually clearly states about the consequences of abandoning your obligatory prayers I mean how long does a prayer Take 5 10 minutes if you if you go to 2 hours in a day then you can condense your five times prayer like maybe overall you'll spend maybe one hour at the most maximum yeah now if you can't even give one hour from a 24-hour period then it just shows how ungrateful you are to Allah it's not just laziness that is just a copout anyone who doesn't pray it's not taking your Dean seriously okay because this is something that's the that's the problem yeah this is tell him explain it to him tell him this is one obligation which the prophet sallallahu alhi wasallam received in the heavens yeah all the other all the other pillars of Islam they came while he was on the earth okay yeah the problem is that people now has a lot of addictions smoking and gambling and they got time for everything they got time for their social media their Netflix look friends but if he look when Allah person should have good intention when Allah wills it he can drop everything I knew I knew people who were like he they did everything they committed fornication they drunk alcohol they gambled they took drugs and all of things and in one night they dropped everything in one night they dropped everything and they and they became good Muslims and alhamdulillah they are good Muslims until today yeah but how they need to be in good company that's the most in Good Company brother you know the Hadith of the person that killed 99 people yes and he was looking and he was looking for Toba when he went to when I'll just take the Hadith to the end so he went to a scholar and he asked him he said to him okay leave you leave the place where you live and go and live in that place why did he say to him to live because the place where he used to live where he used to live that's where the problems were killing and doing all that but he sent him to a place where the people were Pious M so that's he he he just has to surround himself with with good people and inshallah he will be good yeah especially in Holland you know where you can buy drugs on the counter but you know you know you know the thing about it the thing about it look you can only help someone who wants to help themselves you know sometimes you know if if you're a friend of his then you know obviously you care for him that's the reason you're asking this question he's a good guy he's a good guy alhamdulillah yeah exactly so try to you know do it gradually don't drag him to the Masjid like the next day or something yeah tell him about uh the consequences tell him about the uh just say come one day with me I will I will buy you meal or something like that you know it'll be AER for you it'll be rewarding for you and for him as well so try to do it in a nice way inshah you know you know his family is also his family is very uh religious his family his brothers very very practicing guys but he yeah he's like black sheep of Def huh the wrong company most likely yes yes yeah right you hear me yeah we can thank you very much just one thing I wanted to say also cuz um you know Concluding words you're not going to always be able to come on panel and for anyone that has like these sort of questions I suggest on Islam QA Islam QA has like answers for these things almost like everything you you may think um or try to find a local right um uh to answer these questions it'll be a lot more convenient and it's like yeah it's uh it's very accessible and and also uh yeah they do give sear feature as well so we kind find based on keywords inshah so yeah that was our last caller sorry abas in the back Studio you already had your turn so please come next time inah it's nearly hours uh we also have a life right so Brother Dean on your debut on this channel uh inshallah we hope to see you again in the future um I hope you enjoyed the the stream today yeah know it was was really nice alhamdulillah it was uh very good and of course like I knew from experience uh both you and andam great you know great responses you guys are very knowledgeable and I think it was a good experience and de you you you you like as they say in Arabic for me is as if you put ice on my heart uh you dealt with that with that islamophobe in the best way you one could do I couldn't have done better myself so uh Chris well done yeah yeah well done he's a proper islamophobe you know he's a proper islamophobe and uh yeah brother Ibrahim has well done a good job today Mah ald Allah increase you in knowledge may Allah guide you to that which is best for your dean and for your for your de and in brother so yeah until next time we meet I just wanted to say thank you very much to all the moderators uh they have been very patient uh I know the long hours are not really good for everyone also I I will be um Al I will be live uh like almost straight after this live inshah I'm going to be on with um some other brothers yeah I'm gonna be doing the like an entire debate review like from start to finish in so yeah brothers and sisters please do subscribe to Brother Dean response channel uh and also our shik's Channel which is uh da n okay uh and yeah keep us all in your duas I want to thank the moderators and and all the brothers and sisters who have been patiently waiting and watching our our stream lengthy stream I know uh so inshallah make Dua for all of us [Music]