HSC Season 4 Brad Green III

welcome to health and safety conversations here's your host Tom Bourne hi and welcome to health and safety conversations I'm your host Tom Bourn and with me for the third magnificent time is the awesome Bradley green Brad how are you going today I am doing fantastic you just reminded me this was my third time so I am very lucky to uh be a part of this be a part of the journey that you have taken us on over the last couple years I've really enjoyed all of your podcast and look forward to speaking with you today ah it's no problem no Brad we we' we've all benefited from your wisdom and experience um I don't know I I I wish you would tell stories more that's what I wish Brad because you know whenever we're off air and you tell a story it's it's usually the funniest stuff I've ever heard for a long time I I think I think you should tell stories more I mean a bit about what we were talking about before was awesome any moving on moving on um what's the weather like over in your part of the world right now it's kind of cloudy but talking about stories um I think that's one of the aspects that I use to be a ble to get engaged with the shop floor when I go out to the shop floor I talk about personal stories about the stories that you and I just talked about to get it to understand uh people a little bit better on a personal level we all have diverse backgrounds and people just intrigue me and so I I just love humans and and we all have like I said again diverse backgrounds and and those personal stories really get to get to a different different level and so yeah I I really get what you're saying and it's important to have those personal stories absolutely it's um one of those things no one likes being lectured at or told how to do their job or anything like that there are million and one ways to go about getting information or stressing something but the best way I found is actually telling a story and making the point obvious to the person of the of of I won't say the moral of the story but the the point of the story if if you can do that people can take it on and if you can do it in a way that relates to their lives and their practices yeah they tend to take it on a lot a lot better and they tend to actually believe in not listen this is my experience anyway they tend to listen a lot more to a story uh than they do someone coming down and giving them the sermon from the mount uh particularly regarding safety which is let's be honest never a popular topic on on the work floor but um yeah I rarely ever and I think I've talked about this on previous post when I go to the shop floor I rarely ever ever talk about safety um I I build personal relationships get to understand their day-to-day activities what struggles they may be having what improvements they may be suggesting but I rarely ever ever talk about your straight up safety I don't carry I I make it a habit not to carry around a notebook to make sure they don't think that I'm auditing them or a clipboard I learned that many years ago that people want to have conversations and organically uh safety will come to the Forefront because that's the field I'm in but normally when you build those relationships that's when people will start coming to you instead of bringing up suggestions or improvements and that's how I guge success yeah yeah that's it's an excellent approach um too often we see uh the safety professional for one way one reason or another who uh presents the image of knowing better than the average worker or knowing more than the average worker and that a way to basically alienate your audience straight away because um no one likes to feel I don't know small or less than um than what they really are which is Professionals in their field yep all right last time we spoke your daughter had uh I believe if I remember correctly slightly injured herself in a softball game that is correct uh she's still doing well she still playing softball uh she's at it a lot unfortunately I think she's a little under the weather right now so uh hopefully she gets better soon yeah yeah all right Brad got some lovely questions I thought up a big few questions yesterday no way I here I can tell you now um all right you are a proponent or appear to be a proponent for New View safety safety 2 whatever you want to call those lovely stuff but it's been around for quite a while now it's been um there were Papers written in 2000 in 2004 gentleman named Eric Hollen uh published a book safety1 and safety 2 I think in 2015 he he then went on and talked about in a paper about how to get moved from safety 1 to safety 2 we recently had a conference in Australia and all the lovely uh hop people and New View safety people were there some from around the world some big names but it seems to be the same message over and over and over again is safety new is New View safety still new in your opinion and why well it's all about perspective if you go out and buy a used car is that used car new to you yeah and I say that because to specific individuals the information may be recent while for others it may not be I have been advocating for the humanization of the workforce for almost two decades so for me the new view is not new but the conversations I have uh personally on a personal level with people the new view hop whatever it may be is fairly new um unfortunately labels or names are often placed on things for the purpose of selling a product look I view yeah yeah I I brought this up with a a guest recently hasn't gone to here yet the one one of the things that just worries me about hop and New View is just what you mentioned the labels that go with it to sell things um I think the concepts behind it are big enough that they don't need to hide behind gimmicks or three or four word slogans and that's just me I don't I don't think it needs the gimmicky hook to pull people in I think it should should stand both academically and morally on its own feet and I think if there are products to be sold they'll sell I I think they they will sell naturally as people can see that this is a natural evolution of safety that's that's my opinion what do you reckon I believe you're you're spot on and my Approach a lot like safety is I don't talk about hop safety 2 ET Etc within my organization I bring in Concepts U little aspects of the organizational philosophy around hop the new VI safety2 Etc but I don't talk about it within those terms as a matter of fact I was just talking to Andrea Baker three or four days ago and she had mentioned that one of these days we're going to have to quit calling it hop because what's happening right now in the United States is a lot of oil and gas companies that I you know and I work in the oil and gas side are starting to implement hop well hop is is just an a philosophy an organizational philosophy and they called it human and organizational performance because it needed to be named something and they and it stuck there and it's more about the principles rather than it is the name and what's going to happen eventually is hops going to be ingrained within organizations as if it's something separate it's supposed to be intertwined within the organization the way we think it's our inuse values not you know and therefore you know it's important that um you know there's a lot of things that we need to focus on you know you know organizations must acknowledge that human error is inevitable right if we believe in that that's part of our organization that's part of our values then we don't have to call it a name right yeah look I gotta say you're right I never thought of it like that but it's in danger of actually becoming what safety became a bolt on to business operations as opposed to being a part of business operations um yeah be nice of being ingrain the other thing I I get concerned with the name hop uh is because human organizational performance before it became associated with the beliefs of newer view safety Etc that actually de that domain belonged to a particular part of you know safety design and and uh monitoring and that which was ergonomics and as as you can imagine ergonomics as a name has zero selling point has zero catchphrase etc etc but it's a science in itself it's actually a science in itself with highly trained professionals and I think the danger is we're getting some businesses confused hop and thinking it's not only about principles and if they introduce hop they don't need any of this other stuff which is designed by professionals through ergonomics um that's one of my concerns is I there are in Australia I can tell you there are very very few qualified um ergonomists I guess you'd call them and it's not a popular field but it's an essential field and um I worry sometimes that the use of hop has basically almost in some ways sidelight them it it does I think we must we must be very cautious about throwing the baby out with the bath water we we can't just stop what we're currently doing and expect everybody to embrace change which is why I'm I'm an advocate of taking small pieces and intertwining it with our existing processes focusing on primarily humanizing the profession you know looking at the few fundamentals for example you know like I mentioned earlier that human is inevitable understanding that our organizational processes and systems greatly influence employees actions I also suggest focusing on behaviors alone will not influence behaviors we've got to agree on certain fundamentals in order to move forward right I believe we need to become less surprised about human error and more curious about everyday work too many organizations are still focused on human error and preventing human error and and to me I think we need to become more curious about everyday work and and too many organizations are focused on zero errors and the notion of zero errors are absurd giving the fundamental imperfections of human beings and as our good friend C Lloyd has has said behaviors are not the problem they're expressions of the problem yeah absolutely so again these are principles that we can take but I'm very cautious about saying that we're going to implement hop or safety 2 or safety differently again these are organizational principles yeah I agree agree and one of those things about labeling things that it's been there for a while it's been there for a few years um different ideals in safety bashing each other publicly and sometimes vly bashing each other it concerns me that it's still going on because I I was contacted I Breckon about a month ago I was contacted with a message from a gentleman who said so and so on LinkedIn has really bashed so and so's behaviorist point of view blah blah blah blah blah and I don't think behaviorists are getting a fair go can you put this person on as a guest yada yada yada Y and I was like oh I'm happy to talk to anyone in the end of it the person didn't want to or hasn't replied and miss the boat to come on but it worries me that we're I don't know sidelining isolating people because of their point of view we're excluding them from the discussion about safety because of their point of view and to be honest I think all views are relevant I really do I think we should be able to have a professional respectful conversation and we should be able to agree I don't know to disagree on certain things or agree that in certain circumstances at certain locations with certain workforces and certain cultures Perhaps it is not one siiz fits all in terms of beliefs of safety I think we need to be honest and and be flexible about that rather than highly prescriptive I reckon what do you reckon well first I think we we need to assume positive intent in all aspects it's a crucial mindset that which can of course improve communication and collaboration so developing and sustaining a positive and constructive mindset that values curiosity and openness over criticism can be challenging which is what talking about nevertheless uh you know embracing such a mindset can result in substantial growth in progress so when we have discourse around a particular topic and I have a few individuals that will typically reply back to me on on LinkedIn and and I take it and it it allows me to expand my knowledge and look at their point of view and it allows me to grow because you're right I I cannot we cannot as a society assume that everybody understands the same things we do we are all different people and diversity matters A diversity of thought matters and while we may not get a consensus it's important that we collaborate together for the betterment of of the employees whom we are serving yeah yeah all right moving past that because I'm I'm getting depressed thinking about sometimes about the the never ending circle of debate we have about safety points of view all right in the last few years across Western worlds uh so modern developed countries we saw probably about 10 15 years ago a steady decline in ferality rates in the workplace and you know we're all big fans of Statistics all the time but it seems everywhere not just Australia but I'll use Australia as the study 2012 2018 we had a significant drop in ferality rates per 100,000 workers blah blah blah Etc but in since 2018 and onwards that decline has basically plateaued in fact sometimes you could even say it's slightly turned around why do you think why do you think we don't seem to be able to if if we're progressing in our safety practices why are isn't the ferality rates across the modernized world continuing to drop that's a very interesting story and the same things is happening in the US from from 1992 to 2019 nonfatal workplace injuries decreased by 70% approximately 70% while fater fatal injuries decreased by only 30% you know fality rates have remained relatively flat for more than a decade y so it has become increasingly apparent that our workplace places have undergone substantial transformations and it's imperative that we adapt to these changes uh to enhance performance it's essential to avoid relying on the same strategies year after year while expecting improved outcomes we continue to employ the same uh practices expecting different outcomes I believe our world is a different place than it was for five years ago but again I think subtle changes which we talked about while ago have a profound impact changing her language and our response for instance can yield better outcomes I I do see uh and I do believe that many organizations must undergo a paradigm shift under thinking while I I do comprehend that that this is easier said than done organizations must move away from the notion that their people are the problem but instead adopt a mindset that their people are part of the solution and I believe that we can better Empower and support our employees in order to get to a better outcome so I do believe that we have plateaued due to the fact that we have continued to rely on the same practices and while I get it it's complicated in the industry we've got to do something differently yep yep I would agree I I would say that we've come as far as we can with the practices we've currently been using um I don't think we're going to get any more traction is time for um you know choosing A New Path shall we say I don't want to say a new Direction because you know but A New Path or at least to try something different because if we don't try something different as you're right you know the definition of stupid stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results it just won't happen and I think we've got enough data and evidence to show that it's not it's not we're not progressing any further in fact a gentleman I spoke to basically said that most of the fatality rates we had drop in workplaces in that period 2012 to 2018 in his opinion was largely because of increased used of better technology you know taking some of the high- risk work out out of high risk and and he was quite pisticci apart from introducing smarter technology um and that's a scary thing but to be honest Brad I sometimes kind of believe that prestic point of view I see the same incidence or very similar incidents happening in the resource industry time and time again it might be years apart but exactly the same exactly the same and surely surely there has to be some learning from from critical incidents surely there has to be some of that knowledge passed on but it a lot of the time it looks like there's not how do you overcome that lack of learning from incidents I think we had to change your strategy I mean perfect question and I think that's one of the weaknesses within many organizations is they fail to to learn and truly learn and to improve but they also look look at things like the lack thereof and they believe that is success to me we have to look at it from a multifaceted approach and understand that just because something bad didn't happen doesn't necessarily mean that all risk was mitigated and controlled you know I I believe that we need to look at and understand that a significant portion of what holds value can't be Quantified or measured through conventional metrics or methods but many organizations are obsessed with measuring things and and regardless of what our direction is I fear that we will start to measure and set targets resulting in unattended consequences when you set targets against metrics it becomes extremely dangerous because it has a lot of unintended consequences we need to become we need to quit being so obsessed with measurements because a lot of our measures are not indicative of our performance it is just not it's that's this whole measurement or taking go goals and aspirations cuz that's what they are you know we want we want to achieve this we want blah blah blah we want World Peace etc etc you know great great Target great goal not achievable but was you know that's kind of that zero harm sort of Mantra the problem I have and the the the worry I have is it's not just on the safety level this goes up through Executives this goes up through um multinational companies and CEOs and Chief Financial officers coming out publicly and saying to saying at board meetings zero zero harm is our goal and is achievable now they may be saying it because they believe it but it's to me it's almost become a requirement for the someone who is the spokesperson of the company to spouse these values publicly in order to satisfy shareholders that they're doing something about safety or they're taking safety seriously do you think that while we have people right at the very top of companies saying that we're going to achieve zero harm etc etc that it is possible for anyone further down food chain in the organization not to also push that Vision as a Target if I were to as a a manager as a BP general manager Etc after an incident and if I said I need to go out there and find out who messed up that message is going to buy us the rest of the investigation team so of course our words matter we've got to push against the status quo I believe that they say that they expose those values because they think it's the ethical thing to do what they don't understand is the unintended consequences of their messages to improve our current uh circumstances we must manage our organizations differently and that requires us to challenge the status quo and we have to do something different and sometimes have different difficult conversations just wondering we seem to have been educating workers on the shop floor and educating some supervisor middle management about you know thinking about safety differently I'm wondering if it's actually a thing that we have to go out to get real fundamental change and actually educate the community too and change Community Values about this rather than you know isolated pockets here and there because until we get people who invest in public companies understanding that you know human error will happen zero harm or Zero fatalities or zero incidents is not achievable we're going to still see pressure on public figures of large organizations to come out and espouse these things which then again filter down through throughout the organization and you know I think it's going to take a fundamental change in basically changing Community attitudes to safety and we've got a hell of a lot of work we've got decad and Decades of teachings to undo let's be honest undo um and some of that will take some time I think I don't think there's a quick fix in in order I think it'll Pro be be Brad I think a couple of generations away to be perfectly honest um but maybe I'm wrong maybe I'm wrong it's going to be different because you're right it starts starts from the top and if we don't allow people at the top to really talk about really speak what they feel because I have talked to people at the very top and I know how they truly feel but because those that language is so seductive and is expected from leaders they have to say it they feel they don't talk about reality the fact of the matter is is and we talked about that safety in general is a construct with very different definitions we can't even agree what safety is and and then we talk about risk and that's even more misunderstood by the general population because if you knew what risk really was you would understand that zero in Risk contradict one another true true true I got to tell you um I was having a a quiet conversation with someone who's highly I don't know they're quite wise let's just say that and we brought up this whole safety definition thing um my latest thoughts are after you know being learning from a few other people is it that safety is an idea it's a concept and like all ideas different people think of an idea in a slightly different way based on their circumstances experience perspective and so the idea that when we we take this term of or an idea and make it into a profession or we talk about safety at work it's not one size fit all it's not a potato you can hold up and say this is safety and anything that does look and smell and taste like a potato isn't safety or isn't safe it's different things I actually wrote a little article not that long ago and it was just a bit of uh deep Naval gazing more than anything and I said do you think safety is either a right a fundamental human right that we all deserve at work workplace safety is it a privilege that's applied to workers in modernized industrial count countries or is it a choice that workers make on a day-to-day basis if if you had to use any of those terms and quite a few people have said it's none what would it be for Brad green it goes back to your word of safety I believe that each employee has a right to work for an organization that manages risk to an acceptable level within the context of their given operations yeah I think that's a good view again there's no such thing as zero risk I want all organizations to plan and execute task as if failure is going to happen today we are Risk Managers we are not risk is something that we can we can decrease risk increase risk safety is only observed in in retrospect you're either safe or not safe but you don't know that until you're done and you're never done right yeah but there's a catch to that just because again just like I said just because you executed a task without any unexpected events does not imply that all risk were effectively managed and mitigated it simply means that no unexpected events occurred or were not reported success and failure are not opposite ends of the spectrum they're not opposites but people look at them from a very black and white perspective nothing bad happens you're successful if you have an incident you're a failure that's bull crap yeah I got to tell you this whole uh measuring lack of things it's it's basically measuring nothing you're measuring something something that didn't exist something that didn't happen how can you measure that it's it's a nonsense it's a nonsense and the other thing I think about this whole thing there's a few things I think we're combating some pretty fundamental management nonsense that's been put out uh over the decades things like saying anything valuable should be measurable well I don't know how do you measure happiness I think that's a fundamental thing that we all want to be but um your happiness my happiness completely different how you measure happiness is made different than how I measure happiness I think that's exactly the same for safety I think it's it's it's a nonsense you cannot measure that it's just rubbish but it's been ingrained in people for an awful long time as have some of the safety mans I mean I saw recently you had a a little thing about again about the mirror bit with the person responsible for your safety can I tell you I am seeing that almost on a weekly basis in industry in Australia today and we're not talking about stickers that have been there 30 years we're talking about stickers that have been applied in the last I don't know six months and it's just I individualism yeah I mean individualism and and behaviorism is is very seductive Shifting the responsibility onto the employee seems like a good thing to do for the employee let's go back to measurement I firmly believe just like you that a significant portion of what holds value cannot be Quantified or measured through conventional metrics and methods I gauge success way different than most people people y but we are so obsessed with measuring things because we think we have to measure and I think that's what's really hurting us yeah yeah it's because how do you know where you are if you can't measure and how do you know if you improve etc etc and it's just like there has to be a better way they really does oh dear it it it does worry me and some of the I when I spoke to Alyssa Lynch last year she was telling me about in Ireland at University they were teaching things outdated safety practices which have been you know outdated for 20 30 years and the thing I put back on her and said well you know none of us are getting younger Alyssa and you know you're a smart cookie when do we stop complaining about things and when do we Step Up and actually start making a difference ourself when do we if the lectur is a crap at Uni and stuff like that the information see when do we step up and take responsibility and say you know it's time for us to pass on our knowledge to the next wife because you know leaving a legacy rather than just complaining about what may be now I'm not smart enough to do that but uh people like you BR well there's a lot of smart people and um you know you know I've had the privilege of engaging with numerous organizations and R management professionals inspired by the discussions and post on LinkedIn podcast and while it may appear to some that we are only conversing with those who already understand a subject matter I believe that we are making a positive impact I I'm talk you know I talk to safety professionals behind the scenes quite often on a personal level because they're struggling on getting past the old and I don't want to say old view of safety in the sense that we were talking about but the the old beliefs that we still carry and and I try to try to g i triy to coach them on how to make subtle changes within their organization just subtle languages that we can incorporate within our our organization will which will make a huge impact um so again I I believe um that we are not preaching to the choir and I'm very confident based on my conversations on a weekly basis on a daily basis that we are moving in the right direction and I do believe that um that we will make a positive impact it's going to take uh some time because our world is a significant different place right now we are trying and discussing so many constructs right now whether it be psychological safety psychosocial risk uh hop Etc all of that stuff will eventually Collide if you're not too careful and you know I there's numerous individuals uh in our industry that possess the potential to become future thought leaders and only time will tell who will emerge to pay the path forward Alyssa is is a great example and and I had I had the pleasure to meet her not very long ago but but people like her and and others I I believe that they're they're making the world a better place one conversation a time and that's how I go about my organization as you know my Mantra is learning and improving through the lens of curiosity we were doing uh we had an unexpected event the other day and my boss said I want to be curious and I want to ask a few questions that to me was success because he had never used the word curious what I meant was I changed the language within my organization by bringing in a mantra that I believe about being curious and Li of judgmental and now my leadership team talks about being curious after unexpected events yeah yeah we talk about care as a fundamental core value in our organization I have leaderships I have employees sending me articles and and podcast and uh things on YouTube that go over the care factor and and care that to me is is what it means like so it's one conversation at a time unfortunately and we've got to be able to challenge the ideas and have difficult conversations yeah I got to got to say there there there's a few things there which actually good I really like what you said not a negative event but an unexpected event congratulations that that that in itself gets a big tick because you know we hear about incidents accidents who's to blame negative consequence negative impact event the they're couching it a little bit easier but unexpected event that's well done Brett that like that I might use that myself ah dear it's all about changing language exactly what I I tell younger safety professionals if we can just reframe things and and and get people to say well why do you call them unexpected well we don't expect to have events that cause injury or damage people don't mean to do it they're unexpected that's exactly what they are um therefore um you know that's why we talk we call them in at the you know our our our one of our strategies this year is are that we've adopted is learning and improving from everyday work and unexpected events and anytime that we're we have unexpected events we focus on learning and improving proing if we can meet those two things based on a group of individuals if that's what we're doing if there's corrective actions in there that that are not doing that then we are hesitant to implement we also want to implement learning from everyday work because we know that we are mostly successful however the same conditions are often there when we are successful and when things go bad therefore it's very important to go out there on the sh floor and really understand how work is actually getting done all right uh you mentioned something a little few minutes ago which twig my memory I noticed that uh Brad Green's uh LinkedIn posts starting to change Sly I I started to see in the last few months Brad green starting to mention things about psychosocial wrs and hats that's in the workplace okay it's been the flavor of the month here for the last probably 18 24 months in Australia and I know I spoke to um oh it's like a year and a half ago I spoke to lovely little Amy Rouser over there H very very passionate about safety and I said is you know it's psychosocial risks and hazard are they on the radar in the US I'm going to ask you the same question are they on the radar in the the us at all during our La last podcast with Clive you had asked me a question about psychosocial risk and I'm going to tell you unfortunately it's not on the radar as it should be but we're we're talking more about in the fact of mental health um but the reason why I I have shifted uh my vernacular around a little bit is because of the C certain situations I'm seeing in not my workplace but what I'm I'm seeing around the conversation I'm having with people behind the scenes on LinkedIn where people are being put in precarious situations because they are challenging the status quo they are being asked to partake in things that they don't particularly believe in and they are being shunned when they go against the grain and typically most of my post are a result of something that's happened to me personally or to someone that's very close to me personally so when I see a behavior or I see management or I hear about when management treated someone a certain way that typically typically triggers me to write a a post around psychosocial hazards or psychological safety risk zero harm those are my triggers and it's my way of of giving them tools and giving them an outlet in order for for me to give them away to to to speak out without them having to actually do it because a lot L of times people just can't do it yeah no that's good but it's it's a bit sad I I said that it's not on the radar in the US um I may just mention something to your off a about that but um well I I don't really want to mention that next thing on that bit on there so we'll talk about that a little later all right um now in Australia we're just uh basically going to have to wind up soon BR because you've got time pressures I've got time pressures you know and stuff but all right Australia recently been introduced into Federal Parliament looks like it's going to get passed through there's this law that that probably will be introduced and it it's basically giving workers the right to they call it digitally disconnect so that they can't be phoned by their employer after hours they can't be sent text messages after hours they can't be sent work emails after hours they can't be expected to do work after hours okay it's an interesting concept apparently it's been in Spain for quite a while or at least couple of years is there any safety implications for this I believe it is unfortunate that a legal framework Mark is required to mitigate the potential hazards of this conduct I believe that there will need to be some exceptions for critical roles I do believe that there are some safety implications however this stems from the fact that I'm assuming that they feel that that behavior is creating psychosocial hazards and yet you're right it has been in Spain the European region for a few years I believe but it's it's a interesting question whether or not there's safety implications as I have been called or my boss has been called or say certain people have been called after hours in high-risk Industries because they need questions they need a question asked I was executing a big construction project a few months ago and I got qu I got a call in the middle of the night because they wanted to ensure that the proper safeguards were in place before they went along and if they were not able to call me I'm afraid that the choice would have been made to to continue without understanding all the risk therefore that would have had a safety implication a risk implication if I was not able to be phoned yeah so I do believe there's going to be unintended consequences yeah yeah yeah true and you're right it's it's it is kind of sad that we're not mature enough in organizations or as people that we have to fall back on the law for this I mean this falls into one of those great things that You' think is common sense you know Common Sense you don't harass people at home unless there's an absolute need for it unless there's an absolute need for it and the situation you spoke about it there's an absolute need for it and you can understand that but it's a bit sad that we've actually feel like we've got to fall back on you know having some sort of legal Implement put in place to stop that that that tends to suggest that some people have been misusing I won't say power but misusing uh the fact that people can be contacted and I think one of the things about this is they're also talking about if you choose to digitally disconnect that cannot be held against you in performance or future um I don't know your future career let's just say so it'll be interesting um but yeah again sad that we've had to fall back on something similar to that all right um finally I keep forgetting this because I we keep uh talking about other interesting stuff you talked about risk and not being able to eliminate risk and people misunderstanding risk I'm 100% with you on that Brad I really am it's one of those most misunderstood Concepts that no activity no activity can be completely risk- free and it all we're put in place is is put in place as people who can manage the risk effectively so it has as little as possible unexpected events we'll use that word is that about right yes we we want to manage the risk again to an acceptable level level in order to ensure that people don't get seriously injured or maimed yeah we want to ensure that that relevant specific valuable and proportional safeguards are in place to reduce the risk as as reason as we we can we that is Our obligation of an or of an organization as a society we have a certain level of risk that we tolerate and that is my biggest issue with the Mantra or the slogan of zero is that it contradicts the very nature of Life risk and it it gives us a false sense of security when we believe that if zero is the target people may give you the target it may not be necessarily true but you may achieve it vly yeah yeah therefore there's again unintended consequences to that all right one last question Brad and I don't know I think it's a big question but we'll see considering what we've just talked about risk and there's always a level of risk would you say that fatalities in the workplace whether it's your workplace my workplace whatever eventually will occur are inevitable unfortunately I believe that we try as much as an organization to do what we know what we can with the knowledge that we know I believe as I mentioned earlier I believe that each employee has the right to work for an organization that manages the risk to an acceptable level within the context of the operation therefore I believe that organizations must have a strict and stringent risk management Pro policy and practices in place to ensure those things happen but we are not all knowing we are not God and we cannot foresee the future while I do not accept fatalities or even injuries per se I understand that we can only predict and prevent certain well we really can't predict anything but we can only reduce the risk to the things that we know yeah yeah and while we don't want anyone to lose their lives doing anything regardless of on the job or off the job things occur that are outside of our ability and I believe that there is a higher power that is higher than me that tells us when that time is yeah yeah excellent young man it's uh been absolute pleasure speaking to you again I if you ever want to move to Australia Brad you can move move in next door to me and I'll just basically come over and have a coffee or a beer or something with you a bourbon with you and we'll just chew the fat I I I I really would feel comfort able with you just as someone I could just walk walk over a few feet and have a chat to but a time is basically up so thank you once again for coming on and uh I look forward to speaking to you again soon it has been my honor thank you you have a great day to right thanks for listening to health and safety conversations with Tom Bourne until next time stay safe and enjoy the rest of your week