What Sharks Can Learn From Coyotes' Rebuild? Thoughts on Addison Trade

[Music] welcome to the San Jose hockey Now podcast I'm Shang Pang editor and chief of San Jose hockey now you can also find my work at NBC sharks and on Twitter at Shang corpang and I'm keeg mcnell you can find me on Twitter at half hockey at my website half-wall hockey.com or at San Jose hockey now this week Shang what do we got I we have a very exciting guest this week or actually maybe exciting is not the right word a guest to commiserate with Craig Morgan with phnx sports he's been covering the coyot since 2000 and he's a man that knows all about rough starts to a season in 20178 and 2122 the CES both started a season zero 10 and one just like your sharks and so we asked Craig how he got through the season personally and more importantly to you guys uh what can sharks fans look forward to in these very very hard not hard to play against but hard to get through years yeah it was a fun interview Craig had lots of interesting insights about those seasons and a lot of it felt very echoey of what the sharks are going through currently so it was it was fascinating to to listen to him talk um I like that word Echo echoing um so echoe echoey um so this week before we get to Craig uh we got a couple of things um I'm happy that's the the first um proclamation of this week is I'm happy and anytime the sharks are going to make me happy in a week a it's going to be rare and then B I'm going to wear a jersey of the sharks so that's that's my new Proclamation for this this um this podcast is anytime I'm happy you'll see me in a shark's Jersey I'm not gonna wear a jersey because all my jerseys are King's jerseys any I have a USA I have a USA Jersey I have a USA Jersey true I'm trying to think of something with the kings that we could do for you to get into a king's Jersey but yeah we'll figure it out later anyway so why the the Sharks what we're going to cover this week why they made me happy this week um two wins after a season of losing so far um Greer addressed um the team before those two wins when we're talking about that a little bit um and then a kaln Addison trade to kind of cap off the week as well um we will briefly mention the loss to Vegas as well oh we should remind everybody that this podcast will come out after the Anaheim game but this we're recording before the Anaheim game so if William drops a hattrick we might record an emergency addon to the episode but for now let's assume that just like the most of the Season odds are the sharks get get get get get uh get their butts kicked odds are and uh and so yeah so right now we're going to be talking about up to before the Anaheim game so the two wins this week and briefly uh the the butt kicking uh in Vegas yeah so let's get to the two wins so the Sharks win by one goal games um to the Edmonton Oilers 3 to2 and then or before that to the Philadelphia Flyers 2 to1 um which again first two wins of the season um felt great and also McKenzie Blackwood was kind of the hero in both games it felt like um getting outshot um heavily both times um Shang what was your initial your thoughts about these two games anything stick out to you Mackenzie Blackwood is him MH he is him uh we'll see of course still early season but it is great to see uh gender win games for the Sharks we haven't seen that too much over the last uh couple or last five years um so maybe maybe that that is there for McKenzie again when the Sharks traded for him a lot of talk was about his talent how uh Calder he was I think sixth in the cder voting 2020 maybe it was uh was at at a point tabed to be sort of Team Canada's starter for the 2022 Olympics before uh uh Co and and all that stuff but he was Pro a lot of people were projecting him in that spot and so it's nice to kind of see him live up to start to live up to that to that potential hopefully he doesn't get shell shocked uh behind behind this uh this team defense but a couple other Impressions uh from these wins um and we actually even saw this in the Vegas game uh William mcklin has looked great next to Tomas hurdle and I think that that is sort of uh to be expected in some ways because herdle for all you want to complain about the Sharks should have traded him and the Sharks probably should have traded him a couple years ago he is a guy that again has a history even if he's not the most dynamic fastest player he's not Conor McDavid but he's still good enough to make his Lin mates better and there's no really no one else on the sharks that you can say that about I think at this point with Eric gone and teimo Meer gone and even Logan Couture out right so right now Thomas R is the only guy I would say on the sharks that legitimately is making his linemates better and has a history of it and he I think is helping with that with e we got to dig into that a little bit more but I don't think it's any coincidence that ekin looks like he's taken another step next to uh next to herdle and that's that's great to see uh of course the problem is that that leaves one line working for the Sharks and that appears to be the case the last even the last three games even in the wins um so we're hoping that granin can find his game and we've seen flashes here in there was of course not very good against Vegas but uh we see flashes of it and so hopefully you can find it because sharks definitely need it because there is no real uh timeline for uh Couture's return yeah the um I I enjoy that now it was for like the first two weeks of the season the fourth line was probably the best line for the Sharks and now it's never a good thing now it's like our first line is our best line which right improvements um not that they're World beaters or or going to you know match up amazingly against every other team's Top Line but seeing the the cohesion of Eckland zland and hurdle um it works the the line Works um eckland's really good at entering the Zone zin's obviously a good finisher he also can retrieve Pucks in the wall um hurdle's kind of like that glue guy in the middle that just kind of controls the ice and and is you know defensively responsible and he his well can kind of he's just so versatile so he can be a shooting option passing option he's just it it works as a line together and I think that's a um a good thing and I'm pretty sure they're going to hang on to it until it doesn't work anymore yeah probably um I think another guy that um stood out in the games was duclair I think duclair had a good game um a couple good games there and he's kind of like the guy that on that second line is going to have to continue to produce even though he's been out with an illness these past couple games or he's going to be out tonight he was out on Friday yeah yeah it's on granin too though because I think grin's got more on him and I I know that it hasn't looked great so far but pass again we're going on past track record um grin should should be in there um his his best his best years aren't as far away as hey Mike Hoffman's who again it's not yeah not in a conversation right now yeah unfortunately he's not looking not looking great that and I don't think the grins looked particularly bad either sometimes he does um yeah but he's been good too I mean every for every bad play that that you mentioned gring like yester like against Vegas and the the the turnover that made it 5 to zero he made good plays against Vegas too uh but you know he made that great pass to cunan that cunan wasn't able to to finish uh but once again though um yeah there's got to be of course more of the good D the bad it can't be a one for one thing yeah Co and is our are modern day no Gregor so it's just not basically the same it feels like maybe a little bit more hty than Noah Gregor was but way more hty better on the kill so he he's got value but um definitely though yeah looking just looking at the the the line yeah that uh yeah that's that that that one goal in 14 games uh you you probably want that to be more with the number number of games he's played and I'm just looking at uh I'm just looking at I mean I I I I keep my I try to avert my eyes from sort of the the Sharks their stats this year because they're so ugly in some ways and holy [ __ ] Mar Faro has a minus 18 andan has a minus 16 those are the worst among their positions and I don't think I don't think Mar Faro has been minus 18 bad this year uh that's what I I was thinking I was looking at his minus I think he was minus like 30 33 last year and I was like he's going to break 40 this year probably in minus I mean he's he might break I mean he's bre he's making minus 100 at this at this rate yeah I don't know um and but that is actually kind of shocking shocking because I don't think ziden is out there all the time so like perara is out there on every single sing of make some sense you know and then matched up against top lines kind of scared about that zinaa again uh again um we we've talked about extensively so I don't I don't want to dig back on it but and he did score the the game winner against Edmonton so yeah uh good on him hopefully that kind of lifts a weight off his shoulders but I think all the tools are there but again the uh just he needs to if he's not scoring he needs to be happy to play that b game and happy to do that uh and and fully focused on that and when he does that then the aame in offense will come uh I think again eckan is a great example of this even though ean's a couple years younger a guy that if the offense isn't there you still see him doing the B game there's no there doesn't seem to be any kind of issue with that you know uh doing his best to to cover the right man that sort of thing uh Zena's all over the place still and so hopefully uh again the talent is there though I I I I do I I I do fully think that about Zena and so so hopefully that turns around yeah um so besides the or what kind of like preceded the wins was was a Mike Greer um um tongue lashing probably we don't actually know the details of what what was said in the lock room can can we pour one out though for the before we get to Mike rear for the JK McDonald hype train no right after two points after a two-point game uh where he looked like the most valid one of the few sharks players that showed up in a Pittsburgh game and he he's fed with the exact same injury so I feel I feel bad for him because he was ready I mean I think the the Sharks were were about to make we'll mention the kayin Asen trade in a little bit but I think the Sharks were about to make that trade but still um McDonald was probably in line to be at least the pp2 quarterback after that game and boom uh so Jacob McDonald Allstar hype point point per the game player right now Point per game Jacob McDonald hype train ah no it it'll be fine he's he's done he'll come back let's let's get this train back on a track so you're mentioned mik thing we do know actually some of what what what he said you can uh we can actually see the entire interview that we had with Mike it was behind closed doors um in in the Sharks conference room 45 minutes I put the whole thing on San Jose hockey now so behind the pay wall of course so I'll give you a reason to subscribe but a couple things that Mike did say that he did mention in in in that meeting is the first one about or one of the big things he mentioned uh that was interesting was that Mike himself played on a team that at least in record was not to similar to the Sharks 20 304 capitals um of course that capitals team was supposed to be good they had yoger they had made it to the playoffs the year before but they just started off slow and and just kind of kind of snowballed and of course at the end that's the pick that uh that ended up being the pick that draft at that that got oetkin so all worked out wonderfully for the caps but anyway though before that point though during that season though uh they get off to a slow start um Bruce Cassidy I think was fired and Mike was talking about a certain point where where he just was feeling sorry for himself like just he was 28 the prime of his career still he had been on on on pretty good teams with the capitals um the Oilers were playoff teams at least and he just was sort of looking like a deadend place for him just a place to kind of play out the string and the new coach there Glenn hanlin told Mike um stop filling sorry for yourself no one no one's going to feel bad for you right now you're just easy pickings kind of and also you know control what you can control out there just what can you control show up for practice have a smile in games play your hardest that's all you can control right and Mike mentioned that him and Jeff Halper in particular last that year kind of kind of took that message in in stride and they were able to uh they were able to kind of finish the season uh uh just on a on a high note with their careers at least um actually Mike got traded to Buffalo that year he worked his way out of out of a bad situation in Washington and that was Buffalo that was the Sabres around the time that they were making the Eastern Conference Finals so those were the Ryan Mill we talked to Ryan Miller of course a couple weeks ago so uh the the Ryan Miller years in uh with the Sabres and so um so he did say that he told that to the guys that no one is feeling sorry for you like uh uh you you want to you want to be in a better situation be it with the sharks or in a a different organization you've got to pick yourself up because by the trade he didn't say this but if by the trade deadline let me let's talk about before the my career meeting by the trade deadline if you're Anthony duclair and you have nine goals or something like that a trade deadline if you're Mike Hoffman you have two goals uh if Kevin leank you have right now Kevin leank has two assists in 10 games so you Pro rate that if you're Mel Grant I mean just down the line right No One's Gonna Want You you you're you're gonna be you know you're GNA you're going to be stuck in in San Jose so if you if you want out uh then you've got to show way better form and not even just for this season for next year like they're ufas they got to get signed so like they their last you know four in the NHL is them doing nothing so no team is going to want them beond like a PTO or something you want out or you want to stay in San Jose it's still the same pick yourself up otherwise you got 70 games and if you're gonna dog it for 70 games you're no one will want you you'll be lucky to get a PTO if you dog it for next 70 games and so that was that was part of the message also to uh he mentioned he mentioned this to us that uh I asked him like what are the things that you're judging Quinn David Quinn and the coaching staff for the rest of the season because look obviously the Sharks even at the beginning of season was a lot of people said this the Sharks were not designed to make the playoffs we all know this right but the Sharks also weren't designed and we mentioned this too to be the 1974 75 capitals that's you 21p point team I think uh gold differential of minus 265 just unacceptable just how they were losing right and so he says the three things that he's looking for from the Sharks I think these are three things to talk about by the end of the season to see if David and his coaching staff can get this team back on these tracks at least and it's not a high bar but it's just a reality situation uh so the three things uh push back compete uh which we did see in the in the in the Philadelphia and Edmonton winds even if the shot counter was lopsided uh but also too a structure uh the team um just kind of adhering to what the coaches want uh defensively and not bleeding sort of the ugly chances that they were bleeding against Pittsburgh and Vancouver and I would say even against van uh Vegas in that 5-0 loss they were managed to to do that uh to to not humiliate and embarrass themselves at least and again it's a low bar but that is where we're at and so if if if David Quinn can get this group of sort of I use this word actually in in that in in in that chat with Mike um it's not the nicest word but it's sort of the reality of it's this team of sharks is a we weird blend of some hold over veterans like herdle Couture and vasic a lot of young players obviously like eckan and zerin and Zaden and a lot of kind of mercenaries guys that are here we don't know how long they'll be here um duclair and granin and Ruda and even guys that are going to be ufas like barab bonov right they if if you're if if you're being honest with yourself they're they're looking ahead of course like what's going to happen going to stay here uh do I want to keep losing but make my money and and put up points or do I want to try to go somewhere and win um so all all that right leank obviously is another guy in in in in that sort of grouping too so it's a very weird mix of of players and obviously everything that could have happened except for the go inning uh um happened uh blew up in the first um 11 games of the season and uh so we'll see we'll see we'll see we'll see we'll see if if if Quinn can get everybody at least pulling at the same rope and there's they're going to they're going to get [ __ ] kicked a few times for the rest of the season there's no doubt about that but it can't happen like it did where it was two games in a row and you're setting you know you're setting all kinds of marks historical marks you know the first time since 1965 that team has given up 10 or more goals in back-to-back games I mean look teams got through the whole 80s Wayne grety putting up 25 points and no one no one did that in that era y so anyway so that's going to be the sort of the barometer uh three things that I think Mike is is going to look at and if if Quinn can can can get there then that then he's done actually pretty good coaching job he's again this is a weird mix of players yeah and to be honest this is this is kind of what I wanted um from from Greer after what happened I wanted some accountability and it seemed like I didn't want this to just be like swept under the rug and just being like okay well like we'll move on maybe we'll address it a little little bit I wanted like to GRE to do what he did which is you know find some accountability or or take some accountability for this and try and move forward and he also it's not acceptable exactly this is this is not right like there's there's tanking and then there's like this which is like what is this anyway yeah so I I like the accountability that made me happy um and beyond that I also liked that he was mentioning that there were some things going on that you know he said wouldn't fly and the locker room and and basically some guys like feeling sorry for themselves or or who knows what the things were that they were doing but um things that he didn't find acceptable so good for Greer I think that was a very good general manager move for him it's also proba I mean it's the first time he's had to do something like that too so I asked him I was curious about that and he said he didn't do it last year not in this kind of team meeting kind of form um he said that uh and I think Lan Couture told quinis too that Doug used to do it about once or twice a year and I think those are kind of famous actually a couple of those uh those those meetings uh famously Doug did it the last time the Sharks had a good team I think Doug did it after uh uh early season Ottawa lost um when they were in Ottawa or maybe it was Montreal and got the Sharks going uh from not saying there was directly all dug but got the Sharks going from that point of the of the of the Season early November because the first Carlson year they they they they struggled uh I just want to add one one point uh because I may not be able to make this this joke later on um but I made this this this joke before the uh the winds that um it's good to see that the Sharks uh uh didn't let the Oilers win didn't let the Flyers win I mean Jay Woodcraft just got fired even though the Oilers beat uh beat Seattle because I was I was about ready to start writing stories calling the tank the Shark Tank not the tank of the losing but the tank the arena uh the tonic the tonic the tonic yeah like like uh uh your to explain it oh that joke didn't hit H good thing I I didn't get use too much to explain no the tonic as in for for for struggling teams that this this is the tonic for them yeah instead of the tank it's the tonic so you know all those years of creative rting background came to this and you didn't get it h I think if you had like a if you WR it wrote it out I think it would do a little bit better yeah t o n i c t a an K yeah perfect you know what I'm saying I um but no it's no longer the the tonic for other teams you know this is a dangerous place to play well I don't know I wouldn't go that far but yeah I know um but uh so then after the two wins we did get like we've mentioned briefly a five to zero loss against Vegas but it did feel like for portions of that game they were more competitive and more towards the um winning hockey than they were before and and and I think Eon has continued his um good play even though he didn't put up a point or anything like that despite points in back toback games so um you know Vegas is a good team vas like beat Colorado 7 nothing earlier this year and they're on top of the NHL right now so and it was second of a back to back too so I I think there's there are some things that I I I'm not those are games that are going to happen uh you know that game only becomes a problem if if kacan gets run again and no one does anything or we saw zerin get run right and no one does anything thing but his his buddy he and eckan are definitely fast friends in in in in the room um and so eckan was right in there you love you love to see that and so um you just want the team to be engaged really for the whole game at this you know that's that's kind of what all you're asking that that everybody's engaged everybody's pulling on the same rope and that they're not disengaged like they like they were after kacan got hit uh because regardless of what uh Greer that's something else that Greer talked about he didn't think too much of that but um and I I do believe that the Sharks didn't see it and all that kind of stuff that even though the Optics were really bad on Captain getting hit by kmo that only could not turn around that Optics were really bad but I I I I I I believe that sharks didn't really see it and also too the play itself was a hockey play like he was trying to score and then he hits him by accident like there's no there's no reason to to to jump kmo for that kmo was just doing his job which is scoring goals a little is a bit different than uh than uh forsberg trying to score a goal but leaping on on on a flat on the ground Blackwood so those were kind of different scenarios there but but um definitely though it still speaks to a team that was kind of disengaged you know they they make the joke uh the controller off joke about defense right the controller was off not only defensively uh but just sort of with with mental engagement that no one was really looking when when that happened to to to kakenan um and so or even if someone kind of saw for a second it was like uh he's fine and it skates off yeah it could be great yeah yeah he'll be fine H so that kind that that's that's what you do not that that's part of what's not acceptable and so we didn't quite see that in the Vegas game so expect more losses like this where a good team just simply turns the Sharks uh uh grinds the Sharks down uh but as long as the sharks are paying attention then that's that's sort of the bar paying attention for for all 60 minutes that's sort of the bar and that's paying attention we're in a we're in a rebuild so this is the part where where I will say that that this team wasn't expect not a lot was expected of this team uh and so there is a standard it's not high and we talk about what that standard is but um yeah part of the the standard is is being engaged for for 60 minutes at a time no matter the score so and to be honest it was kind of the perf perfect week and that's the reason why I'm wearing this jersey because they beat the Oilers which is hilarious they uh got out of the slump by beating uh the Flyers not that I have anything against the Flyers um they agre address the accountability uh and then they lost uh to the team they should have lost to which helps the tank so they still have the worst record yeah exactly they have the worst record now they're not tied with you know with Edmonton anymore Edmonton won last night as well so um it was perfect week and then they capped it off by a um a trade for a um offensive defenseman which was actually one of our subscriber mailbag questions was who's a young offensive defenseman that's available turns out the answer was kayin Addison we just didn't see it um and and here it is the Sharks traded for kayin Addison they traded a fifth round pick in 20126 just three drafts away and Adam rasa um basically for an AHL contract kind of swap thing um so I um I like the idea and I like what career is doing about the defense I I still have some reservations about how good kayin Addison can really be on this team but I think it was the right idea and the right move for the time with how badly the shark struggling and the McDonald hype train was down so that was clearly the main reason why the TR was made oh yeah we lost our number one TR is down we lost our number one Dem man our 12 minute SL forward defenseman or number one offensive D Man anyway um so oh uh I I think I want to close with one last thought about tank what I was trying to think I've been thinking about the last 10 minutes like what like yeah tanking is okay but embarrassing is not humiliating is not so I think that's that's that's the line that that fans have to remember um but anyway on to the Addison uh trade um uh I I think that of course like it's it looks like a big bargain for the Sharks I me guy was scored 38 points in 92 games in the NHL with the wild before the trade but you have to think think about why a guy that's 23 and that productive is that cheap and it's because you guessed it the defense is not very good and we've seen that in the last couple of games and so it's going to be a work in progress with kin but uh definitely the puck moving is there though too though I mean just we were talking about the Vegas game we saw kind of the best and worst of him where uh he was making subtle passes long passes tape to tape every pass which you seen very rarely with the sharks uh this year from their defenseman um but of course we had that short handed a goal that was given up and that was Addison trying to trying to trying to uh kill the play ieko along the along the wall and EO just rumbled through him like a like like like a gat and then eiko hits Carlson William Carlson for the for for the easy goal um so he all kind of the best and worst it's going to be a work in progress um but anyway though the main takeaway from it though is that um that for me at least is oh actually before I get to that main takeway one more thought about sort of how this is the right move it's also the right price though because I I think it's clear like rear didn't want to overinvestment Bist right Bist of course was a lottery pick years ago and so I'm not sure if Columbus is going to trade him for fifth round pick uh they might trade him for a second round pick but if you're the Sharks you may not want to give something that that rich for a guy that you're not so sure about and you don't know if he's going to be part of the the actual core of the team but a guy like Addison uh clear Talent clear flaws uh young great it's a great gamble there's there's there's no there's no there's no doubt about it it's exactly what the Sharks need um my take main takeaway from all this is look at the draft where uh kayn Addison was drafted it was the 2018 draft and who did the Sharks draft at 21 and 2018 draft it was Ryan Merkley and so I can't help but think uh in all this that just how much kind of uh Ryan Merkley sort of fumbled the B there in terms of honestly I mean he he was supposed to be uh the Sharks power play quarterback of the future there was every reason for him to be uh the Sharks pp2 last year after Carlson um and that's how poor he was that that that he he couldn't he couldn't do that he didn't even go he didn't even make Final Cuts he didn't make it to the final roster cut down or even to the final week of it really um and then of course even even this year too if you if you look at how desperately the Sharks needed somebody who could move the puck and just how just how unfortunate that that that that pick was I mean obviously we still understand why the sharks made it and how much talent uh Puck moving talent that that Merkley Merkley had has um but obviously Merkley just couldn't fill out the other parts of his game and the puck moving wasn't enough it just was you know spectacular pass here and there mix mixed in with a head scratching turnover and so anyway you have uh kayin Addison who won 53rd in in in that draft coming in essentially really taking uh taking Ryan merkley's a spot uh what should have been Ryan merly spot and so anyway that's I just can't help help help but think about that because just think about just how big a hole the Sharks had at pp2 last year that Matt Benning was playing it and how big a hole the Sharks had on pp1 this year that Kyle Burrows and M granin and Mike Hoffman were were playing it and that should have been Ryan Merkley uh in in both years and again it's not that's not that I mean the sharks made a bad pick but that's ultimately uh just uh on on Merkley and bad circum he just didn't develop development yeah and I think the it kind of just goes to show the the difference between like passable passable defense and like not acceptable defense cuz like the things like if Merkley was on this team right now the the Sharks would be losing 10 to two every single game no matter what I don't know about that but well I'm not like that bad but like things that he wouldn't even be able to stay long enough to be on Power Play 2 because theyd bench him just for the the horrific things that would happen in the defensive Zone and that's the truth and kayin Addison I think so far what I've watched of him he has uh his physicality is is very very poor um like he he's really bad on the boards he got you know trucked by EO all that kind of stuff but he he doesn't have that the physical Edge that he really needs to be a higher than a probably a third pairing defenseman with power play minutes but you know he is passable defensively whereas like Merkley also didn't have the a good physical frame or or effort but he was so out of position almost always he had no idea how to defend on two on ones he just like never developed that area of his game to the point where Addison is at least passable right now even if he is bad I know if he's passable but uh I think it's more a difference between bad maybe is the right word yeah forg maybe always talk about the balance of good plays versus bad plays and Addison I think uh you're hoping that there there's reason to hope that there'll be more good and bad from Addison and he does have the ability to skate the puck out of the Zone which is like something that the Sharks defense is not very good at right and Merkley merkley's feet never quite developed anywhere close to his vision and his actual passing which is incredible his passing itself was incredible but just other stuff didn't didn't get even close didn't get passable uh uh uh next next to that skill did you happen to know that merley is second in the KHL in points by a defenseman right now yes I did well yeah great so Mike Hof can join him there next year so exactly um anyway we're just piling you know more dirt on the grave of Ryan m though you yeah you're right we are kind of piling on dirt uh dirt and it's a little uh you know Ryan merkley's long gone from the Sharks and so it's it's uh it kind of is a is a little bit of a low blow to keep doing it but again though it couldn't help but notice the draft here for Addison uh same age and really the exact same role and um if if uh if Merkley was even up to that level he'd still be here you know up to the Addison level of not very good defense but uh does enough offensively and tries enough defensively that well you know he he can be played uh uh most of the time by a playoff team like like the wild that they'll they'll they they'll they'll take it they'll deal with it um and so yeah it just uh sort of just the The Echoes of that draft Pi just uh are are here with Addison and of course the the the Sharks inability to to to to find a a sort of a a a higher end p pp2 quarterback last year and a higher M pp1 quarterback this year yeah the Sharks two things about the the drafting number one let's poor one out for Adam rasa for leaving the sharks um he was a seventh round pick in 2020 so not a lot was ever really expected of rasa he was the first from that draft to debut on the NHL and he was fun but I think he Plateau too uh he looked like a guy just sort of his style his speed his size that was and his attitude great attitude was going to be uh a fixture on your fourth line but you start to be better with your Puck play you start to be better with uh just knowing what what what you had to do defensively and those things seem to sort of plateau yeah um and then um beyond that it just is is crazy to me that the sharks have no players on the sharks or Barracuda roster from 2015 2016 2017 18 or 19 in their draft class which is insanity to me yeah basically that whole thing is gone and what we got left now was 2020 um through 2023 which you know there's some great picks in there and there's going to get some good guys to develop it's just crazy that there's there's nobody left they well they have Ferraro so let's not forget Ferraro and they should have had they could have had Norris they could have had Norris too so forgot about Ferraro yeah um but Ferraro and then 2014 they have leank Ste I think those are the last two on those right but yeah I mean I I think when we look at sort of the decline of the Sharks it is underrated just that um which led to which led to of course uh Doug Wilson Jr taking over in 2017 draft and of course start off great for him in terms of the actual players in Norris and feraro but those guys are gone and um let's not forget too obviously 2015 was team oire and he's gone but obviously he's he's a terrific player terrific pick um but then we look at 20189 and yes the Sharks drafted late but there is nothing from there and that is that is tough that's a that's that's a tough look um yeah um I just wrote a story today actually actually and it's something that that that we talked about uh the Anaheim Ducks uh just to CL close off uh my my thoughts on all this um 2019 I think you look at the the Ducks and that's the first year that they were out of the playoffs the sharks of course were in the Western Conference finals and they had gone all in with Eric Carlson too uh the ninth overall pick uh the Ducks Draft Trevor zis uh the 48th pick which sharks didn't have a first- round pick that year because I think it went in the in the Vander Kane trade So speaking of going in all into two uh the shark's first pick uh in the 2019 draft was number 48 artmi K kyev and so hasn't that he hasn't quite popped and we go to 2020 obviously they're still paying for the Carlson trade uh this and of course the number three overall pick that goes to Ottawa not the Sharks true yeah and um there're still obviously the players from 2020 that are that are developing um but it's not like bordalo and gusan and and Azie are up in with the sharks right now contributing so that's the other right right I mean yeah I mean I think right now I think of course there's a lot of questions about bordalo and uh so it's gonna it's probably between Gan and bordalo to make a a a larger en impact but it's not necessarily looking like like like everyone like that's going to be quite the quite the draft that it was sort of promised promised to be uh uh when the when the Sharks uh you know everyone was really high on wise blot bordalo Rob GUI even Cole in the fourth round sure and um it hasn't and rasa is gone and rasa was was was was made a early Angel debut and so that hasn't quite uh quite panned out and in 2020 the sharks of course don't get a draft uh um uh stula or anybody that are number three and the Ducks get Dale number six um and so again so it's just uh of course they're playing the Ducks today so of course reminded of of all that yeah and I think we're that kind of just gos that we're like two years behind where their rebuild is I basically yeah basically and 2021 is like our first like with Eckland is our first like real blue chip Prospect out of this whole thing a long time yeah in a long time and then 2022 you get some good depth there and 2023 another they didn't fully commit enough too of course because they they kept on Hurdle when there was not really a a good reason competitively to keep to to to keep him just because the team wasn't close at all yeah so anyway now I'm sad again I was happy this take off that Jersey take off that Jersey taking the Jersey no I'm happy throw nice sharks are they're they're making their way it's just going to be a rough couple years so anyway um anything else to say about the Addison trade I think it's again like I uh I think it's a good trade in terms of what the Sharks need um we'll see how well Addison can adapt in in this kind of structure because he's going to get um ran over defensively sometimes so hopefully he's he's good on the power play to kind of balance all that out right right and that's been a little bit rough the last couple games with him that nothing has really uh uh not too much has happened that that uh uh exciting on on that first unit I think overall but it's it's a couple games so we we'll we'll give he has season he holds the Blue Line well he passes well on the power play pass well he does yeah so I think he will points will come from him and that's exactly what they need they don't have anyone else who can really even do they have nobody else as we' seen the first 12 games of the season so so yeah it definitely is is a a clean slate a bank a blank a blank not a la Bank a blank canvas uh for uh for Addison and uh hopefully he is a lot better than Ryan Merkley yeah ablank canvas all right let's get to the uh the Craig Morgan uh interview um and uh we will see you guys next week and and again if eckan has a hatrick tonight we'll we'll put a little snippet in here of our fa is just doing this yeah I will screenshot myself buying an Eckland Jersey to wear it for next week that's the answer all right guys hope you guys have a good week bye I thought I had it bad covering a 010 and one start with the sharks but Craig Morgan who's jumping on right here he's covered two 11 game winless streaks to start the season with the coyotes Craig now with phnx sports has covered the coyotes since 2000 and he's going to tell us what is like to cover two starts from hell and how the coyotes got through the season welcome Craig thanks for having me guys and and that history of covering tough Seasons goes back a bit farther obviously the coyotes have not had a lot of success in their history but yeah the last two seasons they they stripped it bare that was the plan to acquire draft assets and try and build this from the ground up so yeah it was we H we actually had a segment on our podcast called pack therapy where fans could have a live show postgame show and we could just talk through the issues and and try and talk them down from you know wherever they were they were standing at the moment because it was tough it was tough hockey to walk watch for two seasons but having said that I always felt that's what the coyotes needed to do all those years when they would say they were going into a rebuild and they would uh just change course Midstream and you know bring in guys like Taylor Hall and Phil kessle when they ready to compete and it just blew the plan and they were never able to build sustainable success that is the buzz phrase around here with Bill Armstrong as the general manager building sustainable success so far they have been able to stay on that plan that past regimes always abandoned right right well then we we will talk about how these two sort of slow starts are connected 20178 and 2021-22 and one kind of amazing thing about it is that the sharks are the fourth team to to to start the season with uh losing the first 11 games um the CES are have two of those spots and then before that the 1943 44 Rangers and so actually let me just ask you just to start off um with both of these coyotes teams was there sort of that anticipation for that 12th game that okay this could be this could be the record breaker right here yeah you know what's going back to that season that was Rick tet's first season as coach and they were threatening to go o for October we were in Philadelphia for the last game and the coyotes had a two-goal lead late in that game and I I was looking at then coyotes uh website reporter Dave vest we had come down to the to the uh media room because we knew we had to make our way to the the dressing room they gave up two goals in the final two minutes of Regulation and we're looking at like is this really going to happen they ended up winning the game in extra time so they they didn't go 0 for October but it was it was absolutely agonizing watching that um things haven't gotten a lot better around here guys as you know there was the playoff bubble uh appearance um if you count that as a postseason appearance but yeah it's it's I I don't know what your experience has been trying to cover this start trying to I I don't even know what you're focusing on if you're trying to put a a positive spin on it for the future really at that point the coyotes were trying to they thought they had brought in pieces and they thought they were going to be better than that so it was it was shocking to the system to watch that start yeah let's start there uh what did people think of this team the 2017 18 team that started off 01 and one but what did people think of this team to start the season well I I don't know that anyone thought that they were a playoff team but I think they had a little higher hopes that they could be competitive Rick Dockett was just coming in he was much type much hype they had they had at least some veteran players around where they thought they could be competitive on the ice and clearly that start just just buried them there was no chance that they were coming back from that they were literally eliminated from playoff contention in the first first month of the Season yeah yeah didn't they just acquire Derek uh Derek stpp on right hadn't been there for too long right um I saw Goosy he scored the I don't know what you would call it the the Golden Goal or the the the trash the the silver trash can goal against the Flyers to to prevent the 12 game uh winning streak uh obviously emman Larson was supposedly in his prime and thought to be uh Norris caliber defenseman back then and so there were a lot of sort of uh names on this team yeah Auntie Ron Nicholas yerson they had brought in a bunch of players so they thought they were going to be competitive Ron couldn't stay healthy that was one of the major issues he was hurt all the time so that really hurt them in goal but beyond that that just the parts just didn't mesh very quickly on that season's team what was the the low of that losing streak it looked like there was a lot of close ones to start the season I see a lot of one goal two goal games here unlike the sharks who of course lost two games two straight games in a row by a a deficit of 17 goals yeah I I don't know that there was a specific low point in that street but when you when you when you tie the record I guess that's that's not a good feeling especially for a first year coach RI Rick Tak is an incredibly competitive person and that was just eating away at him he he he doesn't deal well I I will say this I know Rick really well he doesn't deal well with losing and sometimes he takes it out on other people and you definitely saw a little bit of that in the first month the season any stories you can share with that just uh because we we I've had that recently I I had to ask David Quinn about his job security and I got snapped on a little and David as sure you know is as chill and as uh as as good a coach that that you can have to deal with but you know after almost 100 games and just 22 wins as a Sharks coach eventually um it got to him a little too yeah I think the the main one was that he was unhappy with Oliver emman Larson he really expected Rick tet has a specific idea in mind a a an arct type for a leader uh he wants a fiery guy who's gonna get in and battle that's not O's game at all he's he's a one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet but probably more of a pacifist um they they just didn't mesh well at all he wanted he wanted an elite game from oel that o wasn't giving him Oliver had really played well under Dave tippet who understood I I think how to maybe I hate to say it but probably to coddle him a little bit to make him feel important um and he got the best out of oel Rick and oel never meshed on that level so they never had success together and of course we saw what happened to Oliver Ekman larsson's career from the time taket came in he just he he fell off a cliff from BEC being one of the elite defenseman of the NHL to just being a guy that they couldn't wait to get out of here because of that bloated contract that John chica signed him to yeah yeah there's a lot of uh um relations with the sharks there not or sort of similarities there obviously with the sharks with uh their bloated contracts and Mark Edward blasic right now and it was Eric Carlson uh the year the year before H but one thing you notice about this Eric Carlson yes oh yeah yeah and actually I would say that um that Eric was was somebody that needed um to be uh I don't want to say I don't want to say CTO but he needed to be treated in a different way too and David Quinn did treat him in that in in that way and got 101 points out of him and so want to uh want want to mention that because that is relevant to the Eric Carlson story in San Jose but one thing I noticed though uh about uh what Rick managed to do and the coyotes uh managed to kind of work their way out of this slump they actually finished the season if you can take out the first 11 games they actually finished the season 500 uh 29 31 and 11 so what what kind of sort of working that you were able to at least get back to a competitive State I just think that they they they picked up his system they they picked up his style of play they were a very aggressive team on the for check that was one of the things and they they defended better they got more stable goal tending once they got that situation solved so there were a lot of factors that came together I just I just think there was a feeling out period with Rick toet who because he was so much of a different feeling coach than what they had had with Dave tippet so it just took all the uh pieces uh time to mesh I don't know if that applies to the situation because I I guess I'd ask you guys that I mean what's the plan for the Sharks here the kides were trying to build still build a playoff team at that point right have have the Sharks fully embrace the idea of a rebuild so that they might be going in the opposite direction is my point yeah I think it was kind of a per few there few years there it wasn't really clear and I think now the last two seasons it's clear we're in a rebuild it's just how much they want to mention that word it's kind of like on the hush hush a little bit but they are starting to say like yes this is a rebuild so I think we're finally in that mode just the first part is acceptance as we all know yeah it really is and I will give Bill Armstrong credit for that he has been utterly transparent with that from day one he has not hidden the fact that they are going to strip this down they're going as as I mentioned earlier acquire draft assets they're going to do it the right way and it's going to be some painful lean years he didn't that from the fan base at all so I give the coyotes credit for that at least we'll see where it goes obviously yeah this phrase was uttered by Mike reer uh earlier this week in a defense of sort of everything's going on and they had a he had a a team meeting with the sharks after they started off zero 10 and one and he said it's not about wins and losses so there is a mission there from from Mike but I think if you look at the Sharks just in general just like Keegan mentioned um uh uh there was a lack of a mission to that by the end of the Doug Wilson era they were trying to hang on to to their guys and get get what they could in terms of uh um wins and try to get this team back in the playoffs with some recognizable names like Bren Burns and uh Eric Carlson Etc and um so I think maybe uh the the the sharks in the end of the Wilson era there 201920 through 2021-22 all those things missed the playoffs that might resemble the 2017 18 coyotes a little bit and now we're in the okay we're we are breaking it we are breaking it down it's not about wins and losses and so I think the Sharks today are are closer to the 2021 22 coyotes um but before uh we we get to the 2021 22 coyotes though did want to ask you just a couple more questions about this 2017 18 team uh how uh um well first actually going back to How uh pocket and the guys managed to to get their way back to competitiveness is there sort of one thing that that you can take from that that could apply to the Sharks even though it's a different team this isn't as veteran laid in a sharks group I think and there aren't as many expectations but what is sort of uh one thing that that maybe changed for toet and the guys um in the in the second part of the Season that maybe the sharks can take from well it was just buying and and I'm not sure if the the the two situations are if you can them because as you mentioned that coyotes team had a lot of veterans and I think that's what really really helped them turn the corner you had a bunch of good leaders in that room buying into Rick docket system and and convincing the younger guys that this was the way to go and and that's how I think they turned it around again that and and some stability and goal after a full month Etc or extra of of poor goal ending and injuries so I I don't know if the two situations are all that comparable in in in in that light right right right no I see that ronto actually had an amazing season if he was healthy he might have won vest yeah terrific numbers once he was healthy but yeah 930 save percentage honestly that was an issue with him throughout his time here they came to the point where they they decided that he was not a goenda because he just didn't have the body composition to withstand the rigors of that many starts that that sort of workload they really had to manage his workload so he better off in a in a backup role or a 1B role and and that's what led them eventually to go out and get Darcy keer who of course turned into a really good goenda him and a terrific golender and traded him for a first round pick to Colorado they want to cup with him how was the you mentioned the the room and how good it was and this is always relevant I think in these situations um and so who were sort of the the the leaders of the room the positive forces and honestly were there any negative forces kind of in the room guys that maybe you you might not want your young players around well I don't know if there were any negative guys per se in that room but there like I mentioned well you mentioned Derek steon he was certainly one of those guys Nicholas yerson in terms of how you approach the NHL game I mean he is he is the model he is everyone will tell you he is the consumate professional in his work habits No Nonsense he's always there he's always doing the right things on and off the ice so he was a great example Alex goosi was here Dez former shark was here I think he's doing some broadcast work for the Sharks this and for you guys too yes for us as well yeah so they had a lot of guys like that in the room to help guide them guys who had been through not just a lot of NHL games but they had been through a lot of NHL playoff games so they understood what it meant to succeed at the highest level of this league and I think that really filtered down to the rest of the team and uh you you you mentioned uh you mentioned Jason uh how was he in the room and uh just uh it was actually one of his last sort of full seasons and I'm sure he didn't realize at the time but but yeah he he's a goofball I don't know how much you guys have talked to him but oh yeah a lot he's podcast as well it's his sense of humor right yeah he he was he was that guy in the room constantly chirping others I remember literally I remember doing interviews in the room and I could not finish interviews sometimes because he was chirping the guy that I was interviewing trying to disrupt the interview that was Jason Dez it was all good fun and yeah we're lucky enough to have him on our show so he can do it with us yeah so that's a that becomes a positive ribbies in kind of times like this zero 10 and one and then you're trying to work your way out of it you maybe you thought you were a playoff team at uh during training camp and you're you're not going to to to make it but you need somebody to to keep the room light right like not everybody has to be a stoic uh stoic leader kind of guy no question I mean players need to know that it's not life and death right yeah this is a bad stretch and you're paid to win and obviously it's awful to be in that situation but the sun comes up the next day and and I think they helped uh the younger players understand that one other guy that I should mention who I talk to all the time and is actually scouting for Calgary now is Brad Richardson talk about a non non-nonsense approach um right one of the best quotes I've ever covered you never got you never got cliches with Brad Richardson he always told you exactly what what was on his mind and he did the same thing in that room with the players ah well I you you probably haven't really dealt too much with Nik Sturm uh but Nico actually reminds me a bit of Brad because both are stallion Cup winners Brad obviously with the Kings uh Nico is a No Nonsense does pretty much everything right on on on the ice is always giving it his his all and never gives you a cliche for the answer so you need that type in the room too of course um wanted to ask you also about Anthony duclair obviously that's relevant to sharks fans and uh Duke I started the season with the coyotes but was uh was was traded and I I get the sense that um Duke was still trying to this was this was still a rough part of his career the coyotes started off great for him when he joined them after the trade with the with the Rangers he scored 20 goals his first year but then after that was kind of kind of tough got sent down um and so it was it was it was a tough it was a tough uh a tough run in the end there for him yeah it was um there were a few issues here um if if you if you get Coyote's leadership some of the players to talk about what the issues were some of it was work ethic he he was not putting in the time um there were also there were times where he just he would make mindboggling decisions with the puck on the ice he would he would turn it over at the offensive blue line he would try and go oneon-one with a guy when when there's a line change and turn the puck over you cre so things like that he just he hadn't honed his hockey sense at that point is I I guess what I would say that was a major criticism up here through multiple coaching staffs so it wasn't just rck toet it was Dave tippet as well they had issues with parts of his game that he didn't seem committed to working on obviously he he enjoyed some success a little later on once he left here but but those were issues with duclair who you know he could skate he could he knew he could shoot and score and he he actually was uh I thought he was underrated in wall battles because he had such a strong lower body I I doubt you guys have actually looked at Anthony duclair's legs I have myself I'll admit that but he got a powerful lower body so he was very effective when he would get into those wall battles but they just didn't see enough of those other parts they didn't see him progressing in those areas that they were really stressing so at at some point it just became too frustrating and as I mentioned with Rick toet he has very high expectations for players and if he doesn't get by in from them very quickly things are probably going to turn sour he you you you you've moved your way into his dogghouse and it's really hard to get out of Rick tet's doghouse once you're there and uh I think the Sharks has somebody uh maybe a little bit like that though there isn't really any questions about his compete where maybe there there were with Anthony duclair back then but I think Philip Zena is is maybe a little bit like that where there's a clear bundle of tools um uh there's a speed there's a shot but doesn't all quite to come together every game um but uh one another guy I wanted to ask you about I think this is actually maybe the the most important guy of of this year that um has lasted with the CES and it was his very first year First full year was how did this season shape of Clayton Keller he obviously he his stats look good he was third in the CER but just in general just all the losing and the Sharks fans are worried about a guy like William eckan and and how all this losing affects him but how how did a Clayton take all this yeah I think he was so young that you do worry about it just becoming ingrained it becoming a habit when you lose for that long so you you worry about that sort of impact on a young player but in terms of disatisfaction I didn't sense it at that point he was just too young he's trying to find his way in the NHL and and honestly after a really good rookie season he fell off considerably for for a couple years where there were some of those same concerns about his defensive game he just wasn't he didn't have the details away from the puck and it was frustrating both to Dave tibit and to Rick Tucket that he wasn't picking those things up the difference there as Tak has always described Clayton as a student of the game he he watches so much video in fact he taket said he would bug the hell out of him because he was always calling them calling him or asking him questions about these things that he saw he took up a lot of Rick dockett's time but he was willing to work with him because he was clearly dedicated to the craft right you mention you mentioned the impact of of losing I think it's important to fast forward to where they are right now this season talking about Clayton Keller in particular because when we got to this off season I'm not sure the plan was to beef up the Coyotes roster as much as they did this offseason but Clayton Keller was a big part of that more more accurately Clayton Keller's agent Scott Bartlett there comes a point where they're they're looking at the roster saying okay am I going to spend my entire Prime of my career in a rebuild and they they rais concerns about that you saw Jacob Chan wanted out after realizing they were going to be in this rebuild well the same possibility may have existed with Clayton Keller if they didn't make a concerted effort to improve this roster this offseason so while he was trying to adjust for those first few years of his career he had reached a point uh this offseason and especially after the terrific season he had last year where he didn't want to sit spinning the wheels in a rebuild for another couple Seasons he wanted to see the coyotes go out and make some moves to improve the roster so that that was his mindset this offseason and obviously Armstrong did some of those things by bringing guys like Jason zooker Matt Dumba Alex kerfoot Etc and Logan coie came on board as well I mean speaks to uh Keller's growth though that at this point that he's uh sort of um acred enough uh credit Goodwill on the ice off the ice and organization that the organization will be like okay you know we will we're not just going to laugh at this We're Not Just Gonna Let You Go uh but uh um we're going to do what we what we can to kind of um so so you'll stay and you're good enough that that uh that we're going to kind of work with you here uh but I guess with Clayton though I guess though that uh maybe this first year that you mentioned some of these defensive habits that weren't quite there and he was working his way through too but you know I I guess you could pick up some bad habits right and May and maybe he did to some degree because the team just wasn't quite quite quite there around him I'm not sure if you picked up bad habits or he simply didn't have them yet I think there's a you know there's there's a refinement that comes along with playing the NHL game you can get away with things at lower levels certainly at at be where he was he was getting away with that and he he was a oneandone and came in maybe a little too soon I the counties have a bad history of this as well rushing their prospects to the NHL instead of maybe giving them some time in the AHL to learn those finer points of the game it's not an issue with Bill Armstrong I will say that for the first time it feels like they are committed to overbaking players in the AHL but when when Keller arrived you could see that the skill level was but he didn't have a a well-rounded 200 foot game at that point it's something that he needed to learn in the NHL which is not ideal because as you said a million times the NHL is not a developmental League well you mentioned though with Clayton's career tra though that we had that a terrific first season was third in the CER voting but then dropped off a bit but now though he he's he's back as sort of your your star Winger your franchise player to some degree and so what was it about Clayton that sort of allowed him to sort of survive those those those two SE those couple seasons in between when his game dropped off oh he's first of all he's so competitive he's one of the most competitive guys I've ever been around so that certainly helped him and when he hears criticism he doesn't pout it it took him a while again to refine the game and I think getting that 200 foot game he's understood that you know by playing better defense and and and getting getting uh having to defend less time that means more time on offense right so it's going to give him more opportunities but again he was very competitive so he worked at his craft and that's what got him to this point I think is just a dedication to his craft and actually listening being coachable and trying to get to that next level well for sharks fans then with eckan at least eckan they have overbaked him and he's not as productive as a Keller yet hopefully he gets there but his defensive game is is is pretty refined for a 21y old but um let's uh move on to the uh 2021 22 Coes here and um first question echoing the one from before what did people think of this team to start the season and I could remember because I thought that a lot of people thought that this was going to be the the worst team of the cap era yeah I remember hearing that a lot and and I'll be honest we we wondered the same thing when we looked at that roster we thought it was going to be an agonizing season to cover trying to find storylines everything I remember having a meeting with our staff and and saying okay everything that we're going to write about this year is going to be forward-looking because there's not going to be anything on the ice worth writing about um and I mean they weren't very good they weren't as bad as they were supposed to be because Bill Bill Armstrong's great flaw is that he brings in really High character guys and so the team ends up meshing very well and and overachieving the other I don't know if it's a mistake it might be a a real uh help in the uh long run he hired Andre TR who is a in my opinion a fantastic fantastic coach and he has managed to connect with these players on a on a personal level that I really haven't seen Dave tippet was seen as a players coach but with turny it's different I remember walking into the ice Den for an informal uh workout the coyote skate up there on their own before the season starts before training camp starts and Andre was there Clayton Keller walked in the back door as soon as he saw Andre walks over to him and gives him a just a giant hug I'm like I can't remember the last time I saw a player do that with a coach it just speaks to this the type of relationship that he's been able to build and that those two things that I just mentioned I think made them overachieve a bit but yeah if you look at that team on paper the roster that was a god- awful team just to remind people that this was the height of the coyotes eating uh bad contracts and so we have a a names uh uh sorry this is sort of for Craig this is like a horror show of names that I'm to mention yeah exactly exactly but uh we have uh and I'm sure good guys uh who tried their best but um guys who were sort of at the back end of the career obviously like Louie Ericson and Andrew lad and Jay beagle and down down the line so um wanted wanted to ask you though about uh tan a little bit here and just um you know after the counties didn't KY also started off here zero 10 and one and unlike the last KY team we talked about they they were they were curb stomped quite a few times they they weren't nearly as close and so this will remind you of the of the current sharks of course and so what did uh what did Toran need do kind of to to uh to get get their way out of this because actually so after they start off Zer 10 and one and people think that is this KY team going to win 10 games I mean I think those were serious conversations that the the low of the cap era is 48 points by the 201617 Avalanche I'm sure there are people wondering if the kyos would even get to 30 points or or something and the CES though um this was a this is a hot streak relatively um from their zero1 and one start up to around the trade deadline mid-march they went 20 26 and three and then they dropped off at the end of the season but um what happened there to kind of uh turn this team into a surprisingly competitive team I think a couple things first of all just sticking with the process they you know you hear that a lot but I think Andre really did convince them that okay they're going to be dark days here but we are going to focus on the process focus on the systems that I'm trying to instill and you'll have some more success but I I I think the biggest key there was again just like that other team goenda Hut you mentioned guys at the back end of their contract bill Armstrong just told me like two weeks ago I finally finally heard this story that Carter Hutton told him before that season that he was going to retire at the end of the year and Bill said looking back on that I probably should have said uh oh how dialed in is this guy going to be well we go to well we go to Columbus for the first game of the season yeah and you know I I couldn't hear after that game because the cannon went off so many times in that building they got blown out and and that's when everybody's like uh oh this is going to be just his historically bad hockey right but Hutton got hurt pretty early in the season they go out and get Scott Wedgewood and suddenly you know between Carell Vela and Scott Wedgewood they really stabilized the goal tending they pretty good goal tending and that helped because as you guys know when your goenda anything it it it bleeds into the entire confidence guys start doing things that they shouldn't be doing on the ice to try and compensate for that and you can't play effective hockey but when they got that stabilized ized it again it it bled out into the team they played with a lot more confidence and they had more success yeah well uh parallels with the current sharks Mackenzie Blackwood has uh led the Sharks to two straight wins um I think he's made 80 saves in the last two games something like that he was like 150 yeah exactly and actually the the other point the the the sharks are 210 and one that other one point they have was a 51 save effort from McKenzie and so Copo kakan has been pretty decent to himself this year too so both of them have been uh bright spots on on on this team so that's that's a good uh that's a good a comp there uh with the with the goal tending um was there ever a sense though during that losing streak to start the season going back to that just a little bit that just like oh man like just like again same question was there a low low in that point and was there a sense at any point like man we we like we're going to be lucky to win 10 games yeah I I don't I never heard it expressed from the players but I mean you low Point like that Columbus game that I mentioned it was just like a shock like oh my God we're going to be this bad it it's gonna be really hard to watch this team and I think if Carter Hutton had remained in goal they they might have been yeah historically bad um but yeah I that would be the low point but I I I never heard it specifically from the players but it was certainly talked around the rest of the organization you heard those and and as I mentioned earlier Bill Armstrong was transparent about that don't know if he expected them to be as bad as they were to start that season but he knew they weren't going to be a very good team that was on purpose they constructed a bad roster to lose games to try and lose as many games as possible and get the number one overall pick which the coyotes never get anyway they've never had a I I I blow people away when I tell them this fact when you consider how little success the coyotes have had they have never had a top two pick in the NHL not even at number two even the sharks have managed number two yeah two yeah so so a reminder too like if if you're trying to lose for the number one if if you're going after mlin celebrini uh there's no guarantee that the the lottery is going to work out your way especially you know if there's like a legacy team like the Tonto Maple leaes with the Chicago Black Ops also in the lottery yeah talk about anything but maybe I am yeah we'll talk about it a little bit because it sounds like you know they didn't get the number one overall pick but they did end up with like Logan [ __ ] at number three I think it was so the the real Gem of the draft apparently might have fallen to three but it seems like this year kind of the 2021 2022 was about getting little pieces out right like get little pieces of your future roster of today's coyotes is is that right yeah that's that's absolutely accurate yeah and and Logan KY you you mentioned Logan [ __ ] like I talked to a lot of people before that draft who thought that he was the best player in the draft Chris Peters among them who had him raided number one all along and now you and look look you can't you can't judge these guys yet we don't know what they're going to become it's way too early to be rendering judgment on these players but when you look at how much Uris lovsky is struggling with a m i mean he he was just here the Canadians were here and it was so clear that he does not belong in the NHL right now he is he looks slow-footed he he had no confidence he couldn't handle the puck um and then you watch what Logan kolie can do even though he's still finding his way in a lot of ways you saw the goal in Australia and you thought oh wow okay they might have they might have gotten the number one overall pick even though they picked at number three yeah yeah um looking uh look look go going back to to this 2122 team we'll close up and then we will get to uh get to the the the draft because that's of course the the end goal of all this for that that high pick but uh how how was that that room for 2122 coyotes you said that bill did put up put together a team of of good guys though and guys that were willing to to buy in yeah you meant you mentioned a lot of the names of the guys that they brought in Antoine rousell was another guy who was just a terrific dressing room guy you know they've had you look at this year's roster again they have those type of guys but like Patrick nemith uh so many of those players were quality human beings and I think it it mattered and they were trying another word that you hear far too often in the NHL is culture but you know that I think it is important to have those veterans around young players to show them how the game is supposed to be played and and more than that how to approach the game off the ice what what you're doing with all of your habits away from the rink those guys are really important to instill that culture so I'm actually forgetting your initial question but those guys were really really important in instilling that culture that they were trying to instill and as was Andre t no you you answered it just was sort of about the about the room and just a couple of individual players I wanted to to to ask you about um uh uh Shane goar is a guy that sort of found his game and value in Arizona and so that's something that Mike reer is trying to do too picking up guys like Anthony duclair who scored just two goals last year uh Philip Zaden who uh was uh mutually a mutual termination with the Red Wings guys like that and so anyway uh how how did u a Goa bear just uh pick up his game in Arizona well first of all opportunity they they gave him a chance to play in the role that he was accustomed playing in Philadelphia before his his minutes and his role were diminished there um he believed he had the game still there were a lot of people that thought after that knee injury that he had lost that explosive First Step that allowed him to do a lot of what he could do he never believed that did ReDiscover his game here of course they eventually traded him at the deadline to Carolina and now you I me you look at the start that he's off to now it's pretty clear that gosis bear found his game again um the other thing that I would say is this coaching staff that again it's that connection bear believed in him and he gave him opportunity kept putting him out there and and if you talk to gos despair it it's funny the the outside perception of the coyotes because of the Arena stuff and the ownership issues it's oh it's a clown show it's an awful organization but once you get inside hockey operations and you talk to the players about their experience there are so many guys that will tell you they loved playing here because of Andre T because of the way that hockey operations approached it because because of all the things that they've done you know to beef up that player experience whether it's the nutritionist they have the chef they have they there so many elements that bill Armstrong has gotten right in hockey operations so I think players actually have a very positive experience this off season Nick buad and Troy stetcher come back because they both loved playing here and uh going uh uh going with t too the the theme of sort of that coach that connects with his players um the Sharks could have that in David Quinn too uh David Quinn has you know been a bit under Fire obviously for the way the Sharks started and also too his time in New York didn't didn't quite end well either but David is known as a player's coach he's a guy that's going to have a lot of a lot of one-on-one time with his players a lot of meetings and that sort of thing and so he's gonna build it's possible for him to build these close relationships because that's the kind of coach that David Quinn is and um David does have a great leadership with a guy like Jack aeko who he coached in a b um had uh why understand had lunch with him uh recently just in the offseason a guy that he doesn't coach anymore and so that's a kind of um if you're looking for parallels um maybe maybe you see that with a quinn and T yeah I wanted to ask you you mentioned you know he's been under Fire how transparent were the sharks with what this season was going to look like did they expect it to look as bad as it has looked this far thus far I think they were fairly transparent they still don't like to use the word rebuild I haven't heard Mike say that actual word or president Jonathan Becker they avoided that for years uh for years at the end of the Doug era when when the question was was is it time for a rebuild yeah everything else yeah rol internally though from your conversation did they know internally it was going to be bad they they they knew it was gonna be bad I I I don't think they knew it was GNA be this bad and that's that's that's what when I say Quinn was Under Fire it's not because the the Sharks lost games everyone knew they were gonna lose games this year it's when you lose by you give up uh you're the first te yeah back-to-back games to give up 10 goals and your goal differential is on Pace to uh be the worst in league history worst in the 1974 75 Capital so um I think that if you if you can put it this way um I think that the Sharks probably thought that they would be closer to the 2017 18 coyotes and maybe not quite as good you know I don't think they really thought they were going to make the playoffs but uh instead that they end up closer to the 2021 22 cootes or the 1974 75 capitals and so I don't think they thought they were going to be this bad um is how much of a um how much burden did they put on Quinn for for winning right so like that's kind of the the you know the elephant in the room is is do they really expect Quinn to be winning with this roster um and it doesn't sound like after because Greer came out a couple of days ago after the back Tob back horrible losses kind of like in defensive Quinn in some ways basically saying he hasn't considered a coaching change sure um and and everything so I think I don't think even Greer really kind of expected it to be this bad but I don't I also think they're giving Quinn quite a bit of leash okay yeah I just wondered because you can you're right about being fairly competitive you can't give up 10 goals in back-to-back games at any level right but you you have to at least set expectations for the fan base so they're not you set your coach up failure if you don't if you're not honest with people and telling them it's going to be a rough season yeah yeah I I think the Sharks do have a little I think they could be a little more transparent about that I like what the Rangers did years ago just call it a rebuil put a letter out to the fans the Flyers did just let let let the fans know they're fan the fans are are intelligent they can see the product on the ice and the fans obviously and you you've been at sap Center fans aren't going there even at the end of uh the last couple years when they were still trying to hang on with the bread Burns and and and those guys fans weren't going because they can see that the product on the ice just isn't isn't very good and so I think that they can be maybe a little more transparent but I think though it's it is fairly clear I don't think there were kind of false expectations that that this team was was was going to uh you know make a surprise run uh for the for the playoffs but uh uh wanted to ask you too actually about the the defensive environment on the 2122 counties because you had a guy there in a in an a Moser who uh kind of uh I think surprisingly played a few games and um the it's tough though for a defenseman uh I think though this kind of uh rebuilding environment especially for a defenseman forwards you can kind of experiment and if you get beat well you have a defense and you have a goal tending to to to uh to bail you out uh when you're on defense you make a mistake it's you and the goalie and so that that's a bit tough and so anyway can you talk about that a little bit because sharks have a couple guys that they've kept kind of down in the system chiefly Shakir muku Mulan who is their top defensive prospect because the environment just isn't good for a guy like that yeah and I think that's fair um in in most cases I think you want you want to develop defenseman longer anyway their right their curve is generally a little longer than than forwards when it comes to development anyway JJ moer is just a he's a unique case because first of all he was a little older when they got him through the draft he had he had passed through but they were they were scouting him hard they thought they were going to take him and of course did in the second round um when he got to Tucson they figured he was was going to spend the entire season in Tucson but they brought him up because of some injuries and he impressed them so much with his mature game that he never went back um so you you can have a player like that occasionally you have a guy who's ahead of the development curve and JJ one of those guys but but I agree with you by and large when you look at their prospects uh and some of them are just too young to to even be at this level but they are baking a lot of those guys down in Tucson or leaving them you know in whatever system they're in at this point most for the most part their their blue line has been veteran Laden they they've tried to go with veterans to bring that stability and again like you said not to throw those young kids into a really tough situation where they might lose confidence because the the team is defending so much and they're they're probably getting beat and making mistakes yeah and guys if you're not familiar with Moser it's a s interesting case he was a 2021 draft pick 2021 second round pick and then pretty much immediately next season he's in the C's lineup and like Craig said he's an older Prospect he was 21 but still that still is kind of a remarkable leap and you worry about uh how the just the the bad play around him affects a defenseman like that but you mentioned that JJ sort of a special guy yeah he is a mature kid too they they love him I you look at this blue line now and he is he's without question one of their top two defenseman I don't know that JJ moer slots in as a top pair defenseman down the road ideally he's probably a second pair guy yeah but with the the composition of the coyotes right now he's going to play up um the but the other guy I know we're getting a little in the weeds here but they they went out and acquired Shawn dery this offseason and sure he's probably been the most pleasant surprise because there were a lot there was a lot of talk about his defensive game there's certainly work to be done there but he's been a very effective player yeah and I I think uh for the the relevance for sharks fans again is that yeah you got to be kind of a special player to be that young and stick and stick on on on the blue line like like Moser uh has for the coyotes so yeah that that was an interesting guy to ask about and finally I want to ask you about Vela and I think that um that's one of the things that sharks fans may be were early in the season of course but if the sharks have found any solution in net then that that can make a lot is losing worth it because the Sharks obviously haven't had a stable gooning really in the last five six years or so and so if McKenzie Blackwood is your answer and he's only 27 maybe he's your long-term answer and so I want to ask you about uh Vela just in the sense that um if anything came out of that season uh you know vela's emergence and oh this is a guy that could be uh sort of our guy when we are competitive again like you guys uh like The KES are right now uh that that's sort of a um a huge win right there yeah it's a complex answer I'll be honest honest with you um so allow me a little latitude here first of all Thea they thought was going to be in the AHL That season the plan was to have Carter Hutton and ysf kosan as the backup oh sure former shark famously yes Thea so badly outplayed kjan in Camp but there was no way they were going to do it so they sent kjan down Thea was there and then of course Carter Hutton struggles and he gets hurt and suddenly theel is your starting goenda guy of course who was drafted originally by Nashville went back to play in Europe because he didn't want to play in the minor leagues where Nashville wanted him he thought he could develop better in Czech and he sort of got forgotten about but they had been scouting him the K's been scouting him and and signed him and brought him over it was a it was a bunch of their Scouts that came together Brian dord was with the organization back then they have a a a scout in Central Europe named teal Fowler who's becoming a bit of a legend because he keeps uncovering these gems so they brought him over he earns the starting job and really plays well and he's played played well the the past couple Seasons so yeah you can look at that and say okay they signed him to an extension maybe this guy is the future first off B worry with goenda to be the guy when they emerge from the rebuild and are a playoff team I don't know he's only signed for two more years the other side of that is they claimed Conor Ingram off waivers they really thought he was a guy who was ready to take the next step Woodley I don't know if you guys follow him with within gold magazine banging the drum with me for a very long time if they're going to go get anyone go get Conor Ingram well they did and you can make an argument now that Conor Ingram is a better golender than Carell there are a lot of people internally who believe that now they just resigned Conor Ingram he signed for a year longer than Vela so how this all plays out we'll see Carell Vela could end up being a trade chip at some point right I mean I I I know there's a team in Edmonton that's probably looking for a don't know what's going to play out here but I I I I'm always Lia predicting the future of go tending because the landscape shifts so often and so few guys are able to sustain that sort of success over a long period of time sorry one more thing they have they have a lot of prospects now they just drafted three guys this year so they're flooding their their Pipeline with guys Michael Robble is their top prospect now that they lost so we'll see how it all plays out yeah the um Mila like on Twitter and everything is basically just his high dangerous a percentages is like amongst the top in the league over the past couple seasons and I I wonder if that's just from um like being put in those kind of positions but you're right A Team like Edmonton who probably is giving up a lot of high danger chances right now might be able to Black with the sharks too has kind of like Blackwood yeah this put in these positions where they're forced to be the number one and you know some of the shots might not be you if everything was as good as their High danger save percentage then they would have 950 save percentage but they don't but either way I think it's it's an interesting thing that he came out of that season for the coyotes yeah it was a a great story because of you consider where he was he was forgotten back in Europe it he didn't know if he was ever gonna get back to the NHL if he was ever going to be granted an opportunity but then he comes over and and what transpired early in that season is just insane from a guy that's supposed to be the starter in the AHL to a guy one month into the season that's the starter in the NHL and has made a bit of a name for himself people are aware of carelin mein they're still not aware enough of some other coyotes JJ moer is a guy that's probably just flying completely under the radar but is a very good defenseman and I'm gonna bang this drum again Matias melli somehow finished fourth behind Stuart Skinner in last year's Al Trophy voting which is absolutely criminal when you compare their two seasons I actually voted a a Skinner in the top three so okay I'm criticized that's okay that's that's okay that's okay well we could have a brief discussion about this I'm just curious um Skinner was the number one goalie granted it was a pretty good team in front of him but he managed to help the the Oilers obviously Campbell struggled last year too and so uh why uh uh why why are you anti- Stewart Craig I'm not so much anti- Stewart as I am that he had slightly above average season when you looked inside the numbers he just got a lot of wins and that's what I kept hearing from people he got a lot of wins well yeah his team was scoring a lot of goals so Conor McDavid and Leon dry idle on his team he wasn't that great last season he was like I said slightly above average Matias melli led the all NHL rookies in points per game if he hadn't gotten hurt for those 18 games I I still wonder if he would have been in the top three I thought he deserved to be there anyway and then when you look at the traj trajectories of those two players this season that's fair has been even better and Stuart skitter has been abjectly horrible I would say yeah in my defense though yeah though those 18 games uh uh Gone are definitely mean mean a lot to me um just for example if kale M had been healthy last season I think kale missed about 18 20 games too I might have picked him over Eric Carlson no matter how many points Eric scored because kale would have probably ended up in the 90s of like pretty close not quite a hundred but with a better defensive play and whatnot and so uh so that does in my defense I think you get a little bit of a um of a disadvantage when you play like a smaller Market like Arizona and everything if you miss time on top of it even though watching Michelli this season you're right it he's a special player it's it's tough to get the the votes from everybody yeah definitely the market matters I I remember when he made all rookie team last season I tweeted out with with a story and I got literally got a a serious response from a bunch of people who are not in this market saying who like I had even heard of Matias melli somehow which just blows my mind that's that's fine for fans U you know for voters I you know expect a higher standard rude last time you were on the show Craig I think you I think you also knew who he was at least Shang yes I didn't know who he was Shang and I actually talked about Shang had his argument I'm just I'm just people that had Arguments for for not in the 18 games is is certainly the most sure most prevalent among those if he had played those games he probably would have been he he might have won the scoring title who knows and hey you know Edmonton obviously is a very tough market to goalen in so even if you do above average I mean it's a market where if you have two bad games in a row they want to ship you off to to Bakersfield so and they they did that with Jack hell basically so well he's had two Bad seasons in two Bad seasons that's fair that's fair actually do want to ask you this is a little aside but you mentioned Tio Fowler and um I was not I didn't really know Tio Fowler but his name is spelled by the way guys te e l and so I don't know why he's not working for the Sharks the Sharks should definitely a snag him but anyway what are some of a Teal's finds uh JJ moer was another one actually yeah yeah so when you look at any player that comes from those central European nations whether it's Germany Maximillian Zuber Julian Lutz those are two prospects that he scouted primarily um so anybody comes from Germany czechia Slovakia Switzerland that's going to be Teal's area of wow okay so he's a European amateur Scout and he oh wow okay yeah he has he's got the Central Central European nations uh he lives in heidleberg I actually saw him this Summer because I was in heidleberg and had dinner with him fascinating guy who coached uh ad Manheim for a long time one Championship so he's got he's got a fascinating background but he knows he knows that area he has so many contacts and some guys I don't know what it is because I think it's probably the hardest job in the NHL I have no idea how you project 17 and 18 year old kids as NHL players I just don't know how they do it and you see the success rate it's low this guy just has a knack for spotting Talent he just has it that whatever it is he's got it what is your opinion what is what is a high a high success rate for a scout it's I imagine it's it's like being a being a a major league uh Major League a hitter like if you hit 300 then you know hit three out of 10 then you're doing great well it's hard to know because there's so many Scouts and everybody has input in those meetings well in the coyot case you might get 11 or 12 in a draft because they have so much draft Capital but how many of your guys are actually going to make it onto the board but you'll always hear like scouting directors say if you get two players out of a draft that was a good draft which is crazy the the seven basically yeah yeah it's not right that's about 300 thereabouts yeah baseball yeah but anyway T Fowler so this is a uh also I didn't know he was a German too so hosle plotner he's American he's American American oh he's ended going over there to play and then oh okay met his future wife and fell in love with Germany and he just St and actually having visited heidleberg for the first time I understand why he stayed because it's a a phenomenal Place nonetheless yeah a hosle platner uh German owner of the Sharks the guy's right in your backyard this is a guy to to reel in I mean come on T Fowler are you kiddingly uh just to wrap up with this 2021 22 uh uh Team before we kind of get to finish off with some sort of sharks relevant points um uh any other positives or negatives from this season that you wanted to share that things that maybe the sharks can can learn or pick up from positives uh they got out can I say that they got out of the Season finish yes you can say that they left Glendale which was which was the original sin for this franchise I'll put it that way that everything that you've heard about the coyote struggles in this market goes back to that decision to move west to Glendale um Richard Burke the guy who owned the team at the time when they came from Winnipeg um he had a partner Steve Elman who wanted to move the team to Glendale because they offered him a sweetheart deal they were still in negotiations to build an arena in Scottdale but that hit some snags Elman wanted to jump to the West Side Burke said it's never going to work out there you don't have the fan base you don't have the wealth base you don't have the corporate base you're not going to have success out there so if you want to do it you need to buy me out Elman did they moved the team West in 2003 and it's been an odyssey ever since and now of course they're still trying to get an Arena built so I know that's not the answer you were expecting but I gotta go there because I want I want to get it out there to as many people as possible to understand the situation here in Arizona why they have struggled for two decades it all goes back to that I often wonder if they had just stayed with the Scottdale plan built it there if Richard Burke still owned the team not the parade of owners that we've seen come in since how much different this franchise would look but they needed to get out of Glendale at some point they realized it playing at mullet arena is not the solution obviously but they they they need to be on the east side of town because this is where the population base the wealth base the corporate base of the city is it all makes sense the areas where they're looking to build an arena right and uh for uh fans who who aren't aren't aware um so uh Glendale is what is it like 40 minutes 30 minutes um west of of downtown is that is that about right it it all depends on traffic um I I have been on that freeway for two hours thinking I should pack water because it's just so drive out there sometimes yeah it it all depends on traffic but it it's again it's just it's people didn't go they didn't go the point is just it's too you live in a western City people don't in the East don't understand how people behave in Western cities not going to do that they're just not going to go that far for a game it's too much of a hassle options the the the Arizona Cardinals play out in Glendale next to where uh Jobing Kila River wherever the C used to play out there in Glendale but that's NFL though that's a different thing so NHL yeah Al Sunday yeah yeah uh but if you're to NHL it does make sense you got to centralize I mean they have the same problem in Ottawa where the Senators have played for years in Canada which is a good 30 minutes away from downtown and Canada is a very pleasant Place Sunrise is the other great right that's another good example too right and so you really do do hurt your your teams I mean you get if you're the owners you get nice deals you make money maybe from it the the the the city pays you to be out there but it hurts the team long run for sure and I guess since we have you on here uh so Craig everyone's always asking about the K's Arena situation so where are we at at this moment uh November 10th at 10 a.m. boy well you Pro probably know already that they announced that they had a letter of intent on one site in Northwest Mesa um after the Tempe vote failed they started looking at other areas and this was this site is actually only about four miles from the Tempe site so still in a great area for them um but then beyond that they're they're they're about to announce sometime this month I think or at the very latest early December they're going to announce another site um I think it's going to be in Phoenix on the east side of Phoenix those are probably going be the two finalists that they're considering for where to build an arena and then you've probably heard Gary bman say it and he's he's told me it multiple times the All-Star break is the the date that they're targeting for announcing concrete plans on where they're going to build this Arena now they still have to close the deal right there's still a lot of complications it's not like this is a simple thing to get an Arena built in a market but that's the timeline right now we'll see if they get it done yeah and I I I I'll be honest my myself like uh you know seeing this from a from a distance I mean I mean I I I have to compare that there are markets out there that don't have teams that would immediately support a team that that comes there but I recognize what you're saying Craig that um in a lot of ways the Glendale being there out there for two decades that there was maybe never a fair chance to see what the coyotes could do with a successful team and to be in downtown Phoenix and so I am hoping that that can happen we can see for all you NHL has has been over backwards it seems to keep uh keep the Coes there and so hopefully you know they they end up right because it is it is a huge Market there yeah it really is it and when you look at the growth of hockey here um you look at USA Hockey numbers hockey is grown exponentially here it's always one of the top five states for growth and obviously you're starting from smaller numbers so that factors into it but growth here has been immense I I just wrote a story because the the Rivalry series between Canada and the US for women's hockey opened it its series here they played at mullet Arena the other night girls hockey is blown up in Arizona and then you look at the fact that Arizona State University has a division one program it's it's crazy to see what's happened in this market I do believe that if they're in the right area they can succeed you have to win in these markets you have to win I do believe that there is a a possibility forward if they can get this Arena done in the right part of town they just haven't had that advantage and then when you look at all the struggles when you're not making money from from the Arena and the NHL is more Arena dependent for its Revenue than any other league when you're not making those Revenue that Revenue it filters down to everything else that you can do it impacted the way that that K The Scouting staff that the coyotes could hire the development staff that they could hire the players that they could spend upon and and and when you don't have the scouting staff you're making mistakes in the draft and you can go through the K's draft history and say whoa that I mean there was enormous mistakes made because they didn't have their resources to devote to it so it filters down to everything it all starts with with the arena and ownership at least this year it seems the coyotes are um a more competitive team because uh or at least than I've watched in the past couple years and um you know just because the sharks have been so bad I've been catching a few coyotes games just to kind of like you know watch some like decent hockey so I I guess talk a little that spot right there okay can I just clip that you've been skip you've been watching coyotes games instead of your own team I don't hear that much well I mean coie yeah Logan [ __ ] is kind of done think um I have Carl Vela in one of my fantasy leagues a couple reasons but um but anyway so I guess speak a little bit about that and and that kind of importance for the season because they are in mullet Arena to just kind of maintain a little bit of that um momentum I guess going forward if they need a new Arena soon yeah and that's that's an important Point actually I'm glad you brought that up because I mentioned you know the pressure from Clayton Keller and and and maybe others like Nick schal was on the market last year but the reason they didn't move him was probably because of Clayton Keller if if if if they traded Nick Schmaltz Clayton Keller probably would asked for a trade too so understanding those Dynamics and how it impacts what they did in the offseason is really important they they they beefed it up because they had to keep their core satisfied but the other half of it is you have to give your fan base some hope you can't just say hey we're gonna be we're gonna be doing this for five years and oh by the way we're playing at a 4600 seat College Arena it's those are tough Optics so yeah you're more competitive you're giving people a reason to come back to to come watch the games I don't know if you have you been to Mullet Chang I have been yeah actually I was going to say that it's absolutely fantastic experience uh if you're an NHL fan um you should it's not going to be often that that you're going to see and all the jokes to are warranted I mean it's a college Arena I you're on a college campus I mean what else can you say about that but uh to see an NHL game in a 5000 4,000 seed Arena I mean it's like watching like Bruce Springsteen and a and a 4,000 you that's a great uh just a great intimacy uh great seat the call the the student section is fantastic so yeah it's a it's a definitely something that every fan should do while they're still at mullet yeah it's a lot of fun and so I think they've given their fan base enough carrots to to keep stringing them along that hopefully we're going to get out of this obviously the arena is a massive piece and I have no idea what happens if it falls through we can we can talk about that if you want I mean hearing oh the kaas are going to this city or this city for for 15 years uh I've read the national reports they're definitely going here so I I take all that with a grain of salt because I I know how much they're committed to this market and I've been told that there are other local ownership options if this group can't get it done so we'll see how all that plays out but I think that they've they've strung them along well enough by making this team more competitive by giving them fun environment there and then I think the fan bases has always been very realistic they've had their eyes wide open to to what this was going to be thanks to Bill Armstrong and they see the moves that he's making even though the coyotes haven't landed the top one or the top top two picks in the draft they they have a lot of interesting prospects their pipeline looks good they have 13 draft picks in the first two rounds over the next three drafts so they're going to accumulate a lot more great assets they they like what's happening in hockey operations so there's there's hope for the future here again provided they can get the Arena built well let's get to get to the draft a little bit and I I think uh that uh the 2018 coyotes and how they drafted in the 2022 coyotes and how they drafted are very instructive in terms of you can do all all all all you can to quote unquote tank or get that high pick uh but you got to stick the pick and the 2018 coyotes number five they drafted haon and uh zido went number six and of course both teams missed out hayon's a good player but both teams missed out on Quinn Hughes of course and but the 2022 coties we talked about um Logan kie and so that's a pick that looks like appears that the CES really did stick right there and so anyway uh just can you talk about the 2018 a little bit and sort of the decision to get haton to pass on Hughes it's interesting you know you remember there one of the kachuck boys was there but went right before Barrett Hayden I had heard that even if kachuck had been on the board the coyotes were still going to take Barrett Hayden can you imagine the Optics of that in Arizona of all wow John sha was really sold on Barrett hyon he really loved his game and Barrett hayton's not a number one Center I I'll just come out and say it he's playing number one center right now because they don't have better options between Nick schaltz and Clayton Keller I think he can be a top nine Center and I think he can be a really effective one because a lot of the pieces of his game away from the puck are good but he hasn't produced consistently he had that run near the end the second half of last season where he's producing well he he's struggling to produce points again this season so you can certainly go back and question that and and listen every GM has that on their resume where oh I should pick this guy instead of that guy that's goes back to what we were talking about earlier projecting uh 17 and 18 year old K Kids Quinn Hughes is having right now he's probably the leader for the Norris Trophy he's been absurd with how good he's been we'll see if the Vancouver Canucks can sustain that um but yeah was the uh sorry to interrupted that was something that that kind of stuck out to be watching those that team this year was just that haon doesn't seem like he kind of seems like the third wheel of that line he does a lot of like net front work and he he definitely like tries to do that repeatedly but I think that that's kind of it he just gets to the front of the net and stays there and obviously that's like where a lot of players make their money but it doesn't seem like he matches the skill level of schmalz and Keller all yeah he's got to finish right he can't finish that the netfront is important in creating space for them especially with the way you you Keller and schaltz like to operate high in the zone with all the motion it works well he's drawing the defense down and another thing that Barrett Hayton does that goes completely on those that is critical to offensive zone time possession whether it's on the power play or five on five is he's great at Puck retrievals to win battles pucks back so that that's a critical piece for this line as well but if you're playing first line Center you better be producing points and he's not so they hope that that happens at some point soon but we we're getting to the point in Barrett hatton's career where you say all right maybe it's not going to happen maybe that's not who he is maybe he's better served as a number three Center in this lineup I'm not even convinced Logan [ __ ] is the number one Center by the way we'll see how that plays out but if you can slot Barrett Hatton in at number three you're probably still happy if you you've got [ __ ] Hayton and Jack McBain but you're still missing that guy maybe need another top six center to really believe that you can be anything more than just a playoff team right right right well uh Craig really appreciate your time here uh I don't know if you have any other sort of um uh I guess lessons or things that the Sharks can't take from uh these coyote teams I think we we've kind of run the gamut of you know you got to stick your draft picks uh uh you got to do well with sort of the guys like the goar the sort of the Reclamation projects that you take in and if you can figure out your goal tending um then then that's that's a huge win but you got anything else there for us yeah I just I don't know what the Sharks plan is I haven't studied it but yeah acquiring draft Capital obviously is a key to to a rebuild and acquiring a lot of it the coyes have gotten really creative with some of those things I mean they they have they've given up nothing for players in some instances they literally gave Philadelphia nothing for Shane gos despare got the player and got a second round draft pick so if you can swing deals like that if you can be as creative and successful as Bill Armstrong that's going to help jump start the rebuild greatly for you guys personally I recommend that you Implement something like our pack therapy to help you get through next few seasons and you know if you if if your Outlet's okay with it maybe maybe you want to drink on air as well to help you get through it yeah we had a a uh we do a subscriber mailbags from time to time so uh you yeah our subscriber mailbag uh we had after the Sharks uh before their win so when the Sharks were zero 10 in one um everybody's drop security questions from about everybody uh the AHL coach David Quinn Mike rear the the president of the Sharks who's more in business Jonathan Becker even the owner is is H gonna sell the team and then my favorite one actually you'll appreciate this one Craig was uh will all this be a perfect storm to blow the Sharks out of San Jose so even a relocation question there you go wow you guys are really in it now congratul living in my world now that's hard to do Dr Choice what's your drink of choice then these times atnx we actually have a partnership with a fantastic local Brewery in Tempe which you should visit if you come to another game called Four Peaks so they they provide us with beer we are actually allowed to drink this beer on the air and we have done so at times because it's it's really good free free beer too oh my yeah yeah sh I don't know what we're doing here you know got get that's all we need is free beer we don't need we we just need a a sponsorship that pays us some free beer and yeah we don't need money we just need beer because this whole this season's going to be very long for the [Music] Sharks thank you so much for your time Craig this was uh this was very enlightening and and um it's good to see the the coyotes um going back to some winning ways this year for sure yeah we'll see where it goes I I do believe that they're on as far as hockey operations they're on the right path this is I I should have said it before but I've obviously covered this team for a very long time from a hockey operation standpoint from top to bottom from management to to scouting to development this is the most locked in I've ever seen this hockey operations Department this is the most complete hockey Ops Department they've ever had I mean it's not like there haven't been successful coyotes teams there was Conference Finals teams right so yeah well anytime you have a guy named teal Fowler on your staff you're build for Success right you can't have him you can't have him and players like Liam O'Brien like he's just so much fun to watch like watching him yesterday was just he's chasing down a blues player trying to fight him first yeah just the hair and the beard alone are enough for me with Liam O'Brien but then when you talk to him he's just a fascinating guy so yeah it's fun to cover him sure thanks so much Craig all right guys thanks for having [Music] me