The end of a smoke in the beer garden?

don't say we never do anything for you here at the daily because today we have come to the pub in the name of Journalism I'm Liz Bates and standing in for Neil today he is going to be so jealous when he hears this episode I'm at the Red Lion in Westminster it's a famous pub because it's right across the road uh from number 10 it's essentially on the Parliamentary estate and I am here today with a Westminster Legend John Craig tell us a bit about this Pub John well I've probably spent uh many an evening and many a lunchtime in this Pub and far too many probably too many yeah but it is a famous pub I mean um famous briefings have taken place in this Pub Charlie wheelen who used to be Gordon Brown's spin doctor famously briefed political journalist here in this Pub that the UK was not joining the Euro during Tony Blair's time I remember being in here with the England cricket 18 one night when they'd been to a reception at 10 Downing Street it was also in this Pub the night before Ed Milan was named labor party leader I was told by a senior labor figure an ally of Gordon Brown that Ed had in fact beaten his brother David so we come here to work as well as uh have a few cleansing a of course we do of course we do that's the party line isn't it we're here to work uh and we're here to work as well today I mean of course it's always Central to history political history here and it's now k St local he likes a pine and he's living across the road now there's lots of people here this Thursday afternoon we're talking about that of course today because there is a story splashed across the Sun newspaper uh this morning I think it reads uh no cigarettes and alcohol John Craig is holding the Sun newspaper and we are going to speak about what's inside in a minute but first of all we're going to hear from the Prime Minister yes we are going to take decisions in this space more details will be revealed but this is a preventable uh series of deaths and we've got to take the action to reduce the burden on the NHS and reduce the burden on the taxpayer it sounds like Kama has confirmed that they're thinking about this that there could be extending that smoking band tell us a bit about it John the story talks about secret whiteall papers seen by the sun there's not actually a quote from the secret whiteall papers in the story but the pm has confirmed uh during his visit to Paris that in fact the government is looking at this quoting a figure of I think it's 880,000 deaths still uh can be attributed to smoking um I'm I can remember I well remember covering the uh the ban on smoking in pubs restaurants Etc brought in by the Blair government I remember the legislation going through Parliament and um there were calls for exemptions for working Men's Clubs quite quite a few labor MPS wanted exemptions for private clubs working Men's Clubs were cited but there was one vote where actually they backed that Amendment but then there was another vote after that where they voted for a total ban and I can remember talking to MPS labor MPS who are heavy smokers and I said how come you're voting for a total ban and they said well it's a public health issue and I think that's the argument the government is going to use this time round of course I mean back then there was a lot of fast lot of complaints a lot of outrage but these days people think nothing of the fact that you go in a pub and you don't come out with your suit or your clothes smelling I mean I remember of course people I mean I'm old enough to remember uh in the Boulevard of Broken Dreams otherwise known as Fleet Street when of course there was smoking in newspaper offices and I I remember sitting I used to sit next actually in the in the Press gallery of the House of Commons I used to sit next to a colleague who was a heavy smoker and I'd go home at night and my suit stank of his cigarettes it's changed the whole culture in this country around smoking hasn't it yeah and and could you see that happening with this potential ban on the outside of pubs well I think it's going to go through I mean look at the Parliamentary arithmetic now I mean just the the the the recent history of all this is that a smoking ban and a vaping ban was proposed by Rishi sunak in his Conservative Party Conference speech uh then there was a vote in Parliament I think it was in April this year second reading and it went through largely on labor votes and because there was 57 conservative MPS voted against it it was a free vote uh and 106 either abstained or didn't turn up now significantly amongst those 57 were two of the current Tory leadership candidates KY Bok who at the time I think I'm right in saying was business secretary and Robert jenrich uh who is also another candidate the Tories have I mean they're all over the place on this I mean sunak proposed it then a lot of Tory MPS voted against it but the Parliamentary arithmetic now with labor with a majority of 172 it's going to sail through it'll go through uh despite Tory objections not going to be there's not going to be a lot of opposition to these anti-smoking policies at all is that this this is these are going to be easy things for the labor government to get through there will be some Tory MPS will talk about the nanny State and things like that but they're very much in the minority they are in the minority yes uh labor will see it very much I mean what's been interesting of course with this rishy sunak policy is how k starma leapt on it and said yes we'll do it was it originally a labor policy wasn't it lab it was Labor policy as well was it richy nicked it yeah and now it will be labor that actually bring it into fruition yeah um I mean there's a lot of things I think to be ironed out a lot of things that they'll have to sort out in consultation for example we're sitting here on a bench on a pavement and of course a lot of pubs have G Gardens uh how's it going to affect um Pub Gardens I mean will they be able to enforce I mean we're in a public we're in a street called Darby gate just off whiteall here um how do you enforce it uh in in when it's a a public pavement or public Street you're right cuz we're outside a pub we're sitting what is in what is essentially a smoking area but it's basically just a a street yes so there's no way that you could ban people smoking here this will go out to public consultation bound to because it's quite contentious the hospital ity industry will be furious and oppose it say it's going to kill their trade although interestingly uh Tim Martin the boss of boss of weather spoon has said he's fairly relaxed about it he says his pubs in the gardens have smoking areas non-smoking areas he says it won't affect his trade um obviously they'll need to look at the issue of Pavements versus Gardens in pubs and so on and uh other areas like outside theaters outside um offices outside hospitals and other places where at the moment you see people heading for the door for a cigarette or going up on a roof Terrace that quite often happens and some conservative MPS aren't the only people who aren't happy about this Kate Nichols works for Hospitality UK so she speaks to people who run pubs restaurants nightclubs up and down the country all the time so we wanted to speak to her because people from that industry have made a huge adjustment already back in 2007 for the last smoking ban they invested heavily uh in outside smoking areas and on top of that in the last few years of course they've had to deal with covid lockdowns and the cost of living crisis can you imagine what kind of shock they felt this morning when they saw that sun headline thinking what else do we have to deal with so I had a word a little bit earlier today with Kate Nichols I think our reaction first and foremost was one of surprise because it was the first that we'd heard about it when we were reading about it in the sun um we haven't had any details we don't know what the proposal is I mean there they were feeling for many of them they feeling at the edge already before this announcement this could be the final nail in the coffin for so many of them um we we did a recent member survey and around a third of the sector say they're operating at or below Break Even they can't take any more shocks to the system they can't uh take any more costs and this would undoubtedly have a regulatory cost hitting them so it will be a significant ific impact not just on Pub beer gardens but restaurant Terraces cafes coffee shops during the uh smoking ban and the result of smoking band They invested heavily in outdoor areas but they invested again post covid because they were only able to reopen outdoor areas for those businesses for whom smoking areas have a big impact on that big component of their business this will be a significant hit so we need to make sure as we saw with covid that we don't just look at the health controls we also look at the economic impact and the harm that that can do to jobs businesses and livelihoods it is there an argument of course on the other side um which is that the health impact of smoking is is so serious and so grave that you know if the sector has to take a bit of a hit then then so be it there are clearly serious concerns around smoking and the impact that smoking has particularly on the NHS and individual's Health but the right way to do that is to look at tackling smoking prevalence and to look at measures to do with smoking this is when the smoking bound was introduced it was about the health harms caused by passive smoking that doesn't necessarily apply in an outdoor setting where passive smoking is is less uh impactful We've hared the number of smokers we are on the way down towards a smokefree future and the right way to do that is through tackling smoking issues not tackling outside areas and and areas to do to with the hospitality sector you could look at public education public information segueing people from smoking to vaping and reducing Health harms that way but if we are going to be asked to pay the price then you need those support measures in place to reduce the tax burden to reduce the costs and to compensate the industry for taking uh a further hit in a restriction it's can't possibly be cost-free to the industry and therefore business rates reform tax changes to be able to help the industry adjust and a good quality timeline to be able to make that adjustment are necessary to be able to make this manageable and presumably one of the things that you're um asking for today on behalf of the hospitality sector is just to ask the government to talk to you absolutely first and foremost let's talk let's not introduce legislation prematurely without due consultation and due consideration of the impact let's work through the objectives understand what the government's trying to do and look at a way that we can do it that doesn't devastate the industry otherwise you know after the smoking ban we lost 7,000 businesses we don't want to do that now when we need to be looking at how we get the economy moving generating jobs and growth so Kate clearly thinks a potential ban could have a serious impact on the hospitality sector and some pubs and clubs could even be forced to close uh if it drives customers away so wood bound on smoking even in a beer garden make people less likely to want to go to the pub well as it happens we are still standing outside the Red Lion in the street and we have happened upon some lovely SM what do you think about that idea I'm actually not against it I think it's a quite good idea because obviously for nonsmokers it's not really great I used to be a nonsmoker I don't smoke often but you're a social smoker that's right but I I I don't think there's should be a big big ban against it but it's I don't think it'll change much um well I think it's completely wrong uh we you want to you want to keep smoking yes we should all keep smoking uh I think we're you know in open air we're outside why should we not smoke why should we not enjoy life with a drink I I don't think we're harming anybody while smoking if someone chooses not to smoke they're more than welcome to do so but if you actually enjoy that why should you uh neglect it and would a smoking ban stop you coming out to the pub I don't think it will stop anyone to be honest cuz even non-smokers well alcohol is quite bad for your health as well so should we ban alcohol I mean what's what's the difference difference there right so I think that the question is not why we should ban smoking but it it's actually to be more informative and to be more aware of the consequences instead of just Banning something that people enjoy and they're actually you know at least in my case aware of the consequences at least from a phys physical and health wise we'll be speaking to someone on the other side of the argument who says that reducing places people can smoke can only be a good thing for our health and and of course the NHS we'll be back in a minute so we're still here outside the Red Lion the iconic Westminster Boozer and we're here because a leak labor document suggests they are planning to ban smoking not just inside but outside pubs as well and I suppose the thing we want to know now is do bands like this actually work in terms of improving Public Health I spoke to Dr Lila McKay from the NHS Confederation about the impact the 2007 smoking ban had on public health so what the research tells us of what's happened with the current smoking ban that's in place and the various other types of bands is that they do actually have a really significant impact on people's behaviors there may be some people who are very very dedicated smokers who will not necessarily be quite as influenced but then there's quite a large number of people who will take decisions about whether to smoke based on all sorts of factors emotional factors social factors the social smokers exactly that see someone else in the pub Garden having a cigarette and think oh I quite fancy a cigarette well that's the thing there's there's all sorts of Behavioral motivators that will contribute to the decisions that people make so for example if you think about how removing chocolate from right next to the cash register for example reduces people's likelihood to grab chocolate on their way out there's all sorts of these behavioral interventions that happen across public health and what they do show is that it does reduce people's uh engagement in these activities that are causing problems for their health if you speak to people who are smokers many of them will say that they wish that they weren't smokers but it is difficult this is I mean it's an addictive substance it is difficult to stop smoking so creating the settings that reduce the likelihood of smoking can be really really helpful for people so that they can make those choices I mean I remember because I was at University at the time that first smoking ban coming in and people at the time were saying it would be really bad for the hospitality sector and there there was a lot of push back against it people arguing that we should be allowed our personal freedoms but I worked in a bar at that time and the atmosphere of that bar I mean changed so much and not just that people stopped then smoking in their own houses you know it reduced the level of passive smoking not just in public places but in private spaces as well and really kind of changed the culture in this country around smoking from your perspective how successful do you think that ban was compared to what people were saying uh the impact of it might be at the time certainly is the case that it helped reduce smoking as you see in the settings where the restrictions were in place but also had this knock-on effect of helping to reduce smoking more widely and I think that every time you introduce things like that there's the opportunity for them to have this really positive effect not just in the location but wider across the ambition to become a country that is smoke free in the future which you know that is an ambition that is shared by the current government by previous governments really there's been a bit of a societal move towards wanting to achieve that um smoke free Britain that will have such an impact on people's health so really to get to a situation where this massive driver of Health inequalities and the most significant cause of preventable illness in this country to get there it's not easy because this is an embedded behavior that people have been doing for years it's difficult and finding different ways to help to reduce the incentive and imperative and habit of smoking has the potential to be really really helpful we've seen levels of smoking come down but how much of an impact does it still have on individuals we know about lung cancer but there are obviously other things that people suffer from um as well that that are still linked to smoking and also the impact that it has on the NHS every month 75,000 GP appointments are directly attributable to smoking and um if you look at the mortality figures how many people are are dying then 76,000 people a year in the UK are dying directly associated with with smoking which is huge and when you look at the economic case for continuing or or reducing smoking if you add together the NHS costs but also all the wider costs to the economy of smoking that comes out at about 17 billion pounds a year so that is a really really significant economic burden as well as health burden on society and that's that's why successive governments have been so Keen to really focus down on how to reduce smoking across the piece and being just so conscious that this is I think that is a it's a complex opportunity isn't it because it's not just let's ask the Health Service to do something about health this is a cross government opportunity to think of what are all the different ways that we can help to reduce this health risk what about the argument that it's just nice to go and sit in a beer garden and have a glass of wine and a cigarette the kind of fun police aspect to it you know it's like of course we we know that smoking is terrible for you uh there's lots of other things that are bad for us as well eating too much and drinking too much Etc but should we be allowed to like just have a few things in our lives that are bad for us and should the government be telling us no you can't do that I mean ultimately in this Society where we have identified that improving our health is incredibly important but we've also really identified that there are these huge Health inequalities which are just morally wrong in society then it is up to us as Society to figure out what to do about it and to take these steps some of those steps will be difficult but as I say across successive governments there has been this commitment to a smokefree future now clearly that's so complicated you can't just get there by snapping your fingers and suddenly having a smokefree present it's is a matter of taking quite a lot of well-considered complex and sometimes quite hard decisions over time in order to finally get to that stage it's really hard so do you think that banning smoking in Pub Gardens would save lives as a contributor to the move towards a smoke free Britain yeah I'm taking these steps and making these hard decisions and moving in that positive direction will ultimately save lives so Lila made a good point there that smoking puts huge pressure on the NHS it was 75,000 GP appointments each month that she said are linked to smoking a huge number so we've heard about all the issues all the details all the arguments on both sides we're coming back now to end with John Craig back at the pub John just give us a sense of how much of a priority this is going to be for the new labor government well I think when it comes to uh the government's priorities sorting out the economy the cost of living crisis probably number one but it comes into Health doesn't it I mean the whole health I mean where streeting the new health secretary talked about the NHS being broken um and he will argue no doubt uh that this is one area where we can improve public health and uh and make the nation fitter and healthier and cut smoking deaths so yes I think the government will make it one of their priorities John Craig thank you very much for speaking to us today and um mines are double always is no half measures with Liz well on that note that's it for today uh here outside the pub I'll be back tomorrow with another of our politics team Sam coats sadly not at the pub but we'll be looking ahead to the next few months in Parliament and finding out what we can expect from this new labor government as it gets going see you tomorrow all right