he's showing through the way that he debates I am aggressive I I am aggressive I don't take any prisoners I I I don't you know I'll say what I want and of course that was in the context of a discussion about standing up to Putin so you know in a sense that that I mean depending on who the audience is but we can imagine I think that's probably quite an effective way of doing it although to a lot of people it will come across as quite rude and quite impolite on Tuesday presidential candidates Donald Trump and KLA Harris will face each other live in their first TV debate KLA Harris is no stranger to debates herself they've played a key part in her career from her run for California attorney general to her Ascent to vice presidency and Trump's clashes with Biden were particularly memorable now Biden of course is out of the picture what can we expect from the former president's debating style let's speak to uh former World debating champion and Barrister at Essex Court Chambers Jeremy Brier KC good morning to you Jeremy good morning so what would you say first of all are the most important things for politicians to do particularly Trump and commer Harris in this case on Tuesday to get their message across because we were speaking earlier on to strategists for Democrats and Republicans and they were saying this is very much speaking to the undecided voters the four% it's not the base it's those people so what should their strategy be well I think that first Point's really important you've got to know your audience and if if 40% of the room have made up their mind one way and 40% the other way you are talking to the 20% that haven't made their mind up and so you've got to tailor your message accordingly and they'll both have completely different ideas for how they do that I imagine because they're both trying to create a different type of image and impression so if you are like Donald Trump and you are the Great disruptor and the man that sort of does things differently and doesn't want to be thought of as the usual politician you won't want to play by the rules you'll want to interrupt you'll want to disrupt you'll want to speak over camela Harris but if you're someone that wants to show you're more of a professional prosecutorial safe Pair of Hands Like camela Harris you're going to adopt a different strategy you're going to want to be more refined and dignified and I think the interesting point there is that your debating style so often becomes a kind of external representation of what you are actually like as a person and the way you intend to govern I want you to have a listen to um some clips which we've got of previous debates if you could maybe critique them it would be really useful uh because I'm just fascinated because you look at this from a different angle to us so this is KLA Harris versus Mike Pence V both as vice presidents let's have a listen Joe Biden said twice in the debate last week that he's going to repeal the Trump tax cuts that was tax cuts that gave the average working family $2,000 in a tax break every single year Senator that is abely not true that is he only cutting is he only going to repeal part of the Trump tax cuts if you don't mind letting me finish we can then have a conversation okay please okay Joe Biden will not raise taxes on anyone who makes less than $400,000 a year he has been very clear about that Joe Biden will not end fracking he has been very clear about that okay what do you make of what do you make of that if I I I think the way that Pence started he has a tone that's very authentic and quite sincere he has quite a calm way of speaking to the audience and to the public what we then get is Cam Harris speaking over him I really don't like the way she says if you don't mind letting me finish and that's sort of we hear this a lot in debates the public really don't like it when you start getting this what you might call a meta debate about how you're debating and they go on and on at each other about well you're you're talking over me no you're interrupting me get on with it but he does get on with it it's actually quite good it's quite stilted and it does sound a bit pre-prepared because because she's using this style of he will do this he will do that he will do the other but she does have the facts at her fingertips she is on message so she's getting something across it's a bit stilted but it is getting her point across and I mean I think what you have to also remember is that they're very very interested in the clipping of these debates for social media I mean I I I've worked with thousands of school children University students around the world debating and it's a much more formal rigorous sort of almost academic style which which you know is sort of loads of PE loads of parents listening and will know that their kids go through this and they prepare well for their debates and stuff like that when we're dealing with this these TV debates these set pieces that Prime Ministers and presidents do they are not a playing by the rules in quite the same way but B they're not just interested about winning that debate they're interested about winning the social media battle that follows which is can they get that perfect clip to go viral on Twitter because that's really who they're talking to no absolutely okay so that was KLA Harris and Mike pen in 2020 so four years ago let's wind the clock back even further to Donald Trump versus Hillary Clinton in a TV debate let's have a little listen to this from everything I see has no respect for this person well that's because he'd rather have a puppet as president of the United States it's pretty clear it's pretty clear you won't admit the Russians have engaged in cyber attacks against the United States of America okay your assessment of that one Joie it's quite sure but I did pick up the fact that you know what I was saying earlier about Trump reflecting his style in his debating which I think is really important to understand he talked over her he talked over her I remember chlo I don't know if you remember this and can't see it but he was actually sort of sidling up to her wasn't prowling around her it was horri prowling around her yeah I think that's probably a better way of putting it but I think the point about this is he's showing through the way that he debates I am aggressive I I am aggressive I don't take any prisoners I don't you know I'll say what I want and of course that was in the context of a discussion about standing up to Putin so you know in a sense that that that I mean depending on who the audience is but we can imagine I think that's probably quite an effective way of doing it although to a lot of people it will come across as quite rude and quite impolite uh on the other hand those are probably the people that aren't going to vote for him anyway so again it's about knowing your audience um but just that repeated sort of snarling uh I mean at one level I find it a bit distasteful to listen to on the other hand I can sort of see how if you're then asking the question who do you think is the tougher and more likely to stand up to power you might end up finding that the audience votes votes for Trump Hillary wasn't quite able to get her get get get her sort of well in that tiny clip anyway to get to get into her stride yeah Jeremy I could speak to you for so long it's absolutely fascinating I'm sure we will get you back on if we may throughout the course of the debates that they have and sort of get your assessment of how it's going but thank you so much for your time this morning take care that is Jeremy Brier KC he's a barrister at Essex Essex Court Chambers he's a former World debating Champion as well and I just love the way he just dissects it all for us and just gives us a sense of what is going on looking forward to the debate I I'm very much in two mind about whether I stay up or night for it it's because I can it's one of those going to say you're not yeah you're not necessarily working early the next day are you I'm TBC because I do like a full night sleep as we all know um but yeah so it's going to be a huge night times R will build up to it we'll cover it we'll react to it of course because it turns out TV debates in a US Presidential context are quite consequential despite what people may have said in the past there's been already been one quite consequential uh debate this year and so this could be another one and times radio is the place to get coverage of it