Episode 87 - Fiscal conservatism and the current Republican Party with Jennifer Nassour

all right this is Ricky and this is Brendan and you're listening to a gentleman's disagreement for the hope I used to find in a Cas L's head folks of different Minds because even though we did not share pain we share on that American ideal friends made over arguments in an early morning bus need an early morning bus all right Brandon it is April the 19th loveely little Wednesday we've got here um special day in my in my family it's my mom's birthday so quick shout out to Mom add to the uh to the birthday month my grandmother's birthday in two days so and a lot of our friends I think either have birthdays just had birthdays or will soon to have birthdays in the next week or so so shout out to all of them as well but enough about the birthdays what do we uh what do we got this week happy birthday to Mrs gooy it as I said couple weeks ago April best month before totally unbiased opinion we are we have a really fun episode this uh today um we're joined by Jennifer Nur who is I don't know sayate this but kind of like a legend or like a unicorn in some ways here in Massachusetts and New England political circles she we'll give her a far more extensive bio when when she comes on but she is the host of her own political podcast she is the founder and executive director of a nonprofit that seeks to get women elected she is the former chairperson of the massachusett Republican party and she has done numerous other things in addition to all of those so we're I've been kind of chasing her as a guest for a little bit and as you can probably tell that pre file she's super busy so we're really excited to have her on we're going to talk not only Massachusetts and New England politics but National politics too about the Republican party in general about super majorities about the state of democracy so some of these topics that now we've talked about for several episodes I'm really excited to get Jen on and to hear her perspective from like her extensive experience about some of these topics yeah definitely looking looking forward to it um I think we've had a couple of gu we've been sort of fortunate to have a couple of guests um who are in her sort of uh broader orb of like the conservative conservatives in Massachusetts particularly women in conservative politics so um I think this is a particular voice that that sort of nationally or or even locally really don't get to hear a ton from um so really excited uh to get to talk to her yeah yeah and before we bring her on uh reminder that this podcast is brought to you by the hard working Craftsman at Canon Hill woodworking they've been building handcrafted high-end custom tables and desk in Boston 2018 that's canonwood two ends you can check them out on Instagram or visit them online at www.can Hillwood domcom one of the things so Jen as I mentioned is the founder of the pocketbook project which is really focused on fiscally conservative women and the boys over at Canon Hill Ricky they wanted to remind us that this being t weak and everything the IRS says there's nothing wrong with paying your employees under the table as long as it's a Cannon Hill table disclaimer the boys and a gentleman's disagreement make no do not validate or say that's legal or the IRS does that at all but the boys of Canon Hill did want you know let you know that hey tax refunds uh you know also make for good tables as well so yeah look at that look at that cons consider uh consider an investment in some custom wood working great investment all right let's uh let's bring you all right we are now thrilled to welcome Jennifer noora to the podcast um Jen is an attorney she's a political adviser she lives here in Boston's Back Bay she is the founder of the pocketbook project which is a nonprofit organization dedicated to electing more women in Massachusetts in the Northeast we'll talk more about that she's also the host of her own podcast political Contessa which talks about politics and news and political disagreement which is a podcast after our own Hearts so I'm sure we'll talk more about that but prior to doing all of this uh in addition to serving as an attorney for two decades Jen was also the chairman of the massachusett Republican party was elected in 20 9 2011 we'll talk much more about like her tenure and the success she had in that role in a little bit uh she has a JD from St John's University a master's degree from CW Post University a bachelor in political science degree from Stony Brook University she serves on numerous boards really too many to name she's raising three daughters and now three dogs she is she just has a new dog which we just met so I we I don't know that we've had anybody on that's busier than you Jen so thank you so much for giving us a little bit of your time today thanks for having me this is great all right so I I want to start with what you're up to now and with the pocketbook project and can you just tell us a little bit more about what the organization is what it does and what inspired you to to start the organization yeah so um I guess I'll start with the last one first so when I was chair of the mass GOP um I I noticed a lot of women who were just not um were not getting the support that they needed from their communities whether it was from their Town committees or whether it was from other elected officials or donors around them um and and also women who who were kind of sitting on the sidelines both literally and figuratively right like the soccer moms the hockey moms you know the working moms who you know like myself like you know I have a lunch and then I've got a kids lacrosse game at 3:00 today and so you know I'm running from one thing to the other and then to take her to soccer practice and Fielding phone calls in between and those women were totally being overlooked and so at my feeling was if we started an organization that was not Consultants that were looking to raise money off of those women um and and charge the money but really A a Goodwill kind of education organization to help locate where they are meet them where they are Ed educate them in politics from the current issues to um you know where what they what they need to say and who they need to talk to and the donors that they need to go to and so that was a lot of why I had I had started it with my partner Christina Bane um I have others on my board like Matt Keswick um who's a longtime uh lobbyist and strategist I have Beth Lindstrom also phenomenal strategist and small business woman um and some other political strategists and so we all came together to start this because there's really a void of women even in Massachusetts where we have all women honor basically all women as far as Statewide office holders except for one and many women in Congress although they're all liberal we still in our state legislature and in all of our local governments have a deficit for women where we still only sit at about 26 % which is the national average and so we felt like we needed to start the conversation get women motivated and get women running for office and so we're we're really a center right organization um we have Independent Women I have some moderate Democrats that come through that talk with us and and work with us but you know for the most part it's fiscally conservative so you know fortunately in the Northeast where um where we are throughout throughout New England is you know most women are fiscally conservative even if they're on the left and so um ours is just really good government how government could work more efficiently do you know where your tax dollars are going do you know how they're being spent you know one of our big things right now one of our our big um motivators in the organization right now is changing the composition of the the Massachusetts Senate State Senate because the Senators voted in for themselves that they no longer need to show up in person for uh formal votes or for uh hearings and committee meetings which sounds crazy especially when they are getting paid by taxpayer dollars that does sound crazy I think to both of us but and so we appreciate people like you and organizations like you that are trying to put a little bit of pressure on them I think we have a couple of follow-ups on that so you mentioned that Massachusetts is and Ry and I have talked about this is incredibly the leadership is incredibly female from Governor Healey lieutenant governor Driscoll secretary uh uh the auditor and Dian do zoglio the the Attorney General Andrea Campbell and so as you said like the organization Center WR women are do you feel like there are unique challenges to being a woman who center right or even farther right in terms of running for office I imagine particularly up here in Massachusetts or New England but even just in general curious um on your thoughts about that um yeah it's definitely challenging so the unfortunate so I I ran for Boston city council back in 2019 and Boston City C or any city council is about you know pot holes and people it's about trash removal it's about you know especially in cities it's about homelessness and drug use and abuse and you know how to take care of City how to take care of the residents in your neighborhood nothing to do with national issues I had people loved me when they first met me and then they said oh are you the Democrat and because it's a nonpartisan race most most Municipal races are nonpartisan but because the Boston Globe decided to make it a partisan race because it was the first time that a republican jumped in the race in 40 years and made it past the preliminary they made it a big partisan race so people knew I was Republican so then it was was what are you going to do about our abortion rights what are you you know you you're definitely with Trump and I was like okay so no I'm not with Trump I I think that he's his the way he speaks is repulsive and I'm not I'm not AFF effectuating any abortion policy running by being on the Boston city council I'm actually concerned about the rats in my backyard the potholes the Rogue Ubers that are like mowing down me and my kids in the crosswalks that's more of what I'm concerned about and so what I find difficul is in a state like this um you know as a as a as a female in politics I'm supposed to be a Democrat I'm supposed to walk in lock step with Democrats and not be a republican like myself and and I'm kind of all over the map on my on my political views and and still I'm supposed to be a Democrat yeah I mean I think you touched on this a little bit already so maybe just to expand on the idea I think like the pocketbook project is uh you know on on its face on its name definitely speaks to fiscal conservatism I wonder if you think about that kind of in contrast to like the broader more National kind of Republican or conservative dialogue these days that seems to Target more social issues or are you able or are you thinking about sort of separating the two we SE we definitely separate them um pocketbook project separates the two issues um because we really want to focus on educating and supporting women running for office that are fiscally conservative so we want to talk about you know and everything has a has a um has a fiscal component right so it might seem like it's it's uh social on its face but like as a taxpayer I don't want to have to I don't like taxpayer funded abortions right that doesn't mean that I'm not pro-choice it just means that I I don't want to pay for your your choices I don't want to pay for your transitioning I don't want to pay for um it's like a whole host of things right so for me it's it's not a social issue it's seriously a fiscal issue I mean I'm also a single mom and so I'm paying the bills I know where my tax dollars are going when I'm paying my homeowners tax and I see my utility bill and I so I'm paying attention to all of that stuff I don't want my money to go anywhere else and so I'm looking for female C candidates who feel the same way that yes our our elected officials should be working for us they should not be working for the lobbyists that are coming in and trying to woo them on one position or another they shouldn't be um not paying attention to what's going on in their neighborhood they should be holding coffees at their local coffee shop or going to the local parade and making their presence known not just walking in it and a celebrity of it but actually sitting there and taking questions from people who may disagree with them but there doesn't seem to be a lot of public discourse with our elected officials here in Massachusetts it's a I said this you're going to fall in line you're going to be appreciative of this and yes I'm going to take your tax dollars I'm going to give myself a big fat pay increase and you know you might be hurting a little bit and I don't care so that's what we're concerned about um at pocket buug project I think that makes a lot of sense do you feel like what's happening nationally is distraction or a detraction from I think what you've sort of are pinpointing as like the issues that are impacting people's every everyday lives one 1,000% I mean it's it is um it's really unfortunate because I think that you know and I I can only talk for the Republican party right because I'm a little bit biased as far as the Democratic party goes um in the in the negative category not in the positive but on the Republican side over the last 20 or so years we have really lost our way you see how spending is out of control that is on both sides that is both sides throwing in their little pet projects on the backs of all of us taxpayers and this is going to reach not just my kids but you know all of our grand kids and our great grandkids um you know we're looking at you know Gen X is not going to have social security available to us it's going to run out very soon and it's going to affect a lot of those baby boomers too so what did we pay taxes into oh and then by the way my mom just told me because I didn't know this which is really weird but my mom told me that they actually take taxes out of your Social Security that would be what you were T what was taken out of your paycheck years ago now you have taxes taken out of very interesting point right so like you're always paying Uncle Sam and neither party has been very fiscally responsible which is upsetting um I think the national messaging has gone astray because Republicans were always and and I think Governor suu just talked about this you know we want limited government we don't want bigger government and the second that we Republicans start getting into bigger the bigger bigger government business we what do we have to offer people so is it just about the you know oh we're we're socially conservative well okay then you just lost half of the party right so I I think that the Republican Party really needs to do a deep dive and soul search and figure out how it gets back to basics well that makes a lot of sense and I want to come back to your tenure as the chairman of chairperson of the massachusett Republican party because as I kind of alluded to in your introduction it was unprecedented success so it was unprecedented from the 20 years previously it's been unprecedented in the in the decade plus since um during that time we obviously had the first Republican senator elected since maybe Edward Brook when Scott Brown was elected in a hugely cons quential election with u that was when Senator Kennedy had passed and then also the Massachusetts Republicans gained I think like 16 seats in the legislature which now I don't know that we have 16 seats period um and so I I'm curious and and so I guess that's Massachusetts Focus but even New England focused in this past cycle no Republicans were elected to the house I believe Susan Collins is the only Republican in all of New England that represents Us in Congress so how how do you make sense of that like I think there's there's got to be some I think there is some despair as as people that grew up maybe more traditional conservative like the the bush Romney Republicans is you're looking around and you're like I don't know that there is a not only a place for us but a path for us to be successful here in Massachusetts and New England anymore so H how how are you combating that how are you uh encouraging other people to combat that it seems like kind of a wicked problem it uh God I mean this is this is a pet peeve of mine right it's um we had a great C we had some great candidates right in Connecticut with George Logan in Rhode Island with Alan fun um both phenomenal men who were running for office New Hampshire lost their minds when they you know did not go in the um more moderate Direction on their Congressional race that could have been one um and so it's it's a it's an issue for us not to have any representation in in Congress and it's just I think it it's speaks a lot to how we are so different than everywhere else in the state um thank you for pointing out those things about when I was party chair we ended up by the time I left I think we ended up netting 18 seats and brown um and so it was I mean that one election cycle though we did win 16 seats and we doubled the size of the House of Representatives in Mass which was really really cool and something that I focused on and you know one of the the things that parties generally Miss is some people wake up you know in the morning and they brush themselves off and they look in the mirror and they're like I look like a US senator I look like a member of Congress and you know Miss that there's school board and there's planning committee and there's you know your Water Commission and then there's running for the legislature at different levels or there's running on your Town Council or your city council and you're running for mayor and doing all those things actually help you raise up through the ranks and then run for something else down the line and so I think that that's also you know I use Alan fun as a great example the guy was mayor of Cranston Rhode Island like as a republican he was the mayor of a very Democratic City in Rhode Island and he was perfect to run for Congress he had the everything about him is exactly what you would want living the American dream which you know might be bad to say these days who knows I always get in trouble when I say things out you know 10 years ago or five years ago or three years ago was okay and now it's not but um you know Liv the American dream he is you know an Asian American he's a lawyer he's married to like a hot rod woman who also took out a Democrat took out the Democratic Speaker of the House in Rhode Island and is a legislator herself so like not a newbie to politics and still couldn't win and it's like you know when the national messaging is so terrible I think it just makes it more difficult for everyone who are in the blue States um you know especially in New England which has our own special type of of political existence from the national model so just to follow up on that I saw on your podcast again political contesta you had Amy counter Val um on recently and she's the new chairwoman of the Republican um party here in Massachusetts and in some ways I think it's crazy that we know who the Republican you know the chairperson I have no idea who the chairperson of the democratic massachusett party is because like there's no need to know them right all they do is win really uh but anyway coming off chairman Lions who Ricky and I have talked about previously and the party in some way seems to be at a at at a Nat here in Massachusetts um what advice did you have for her is it is it more yes that's my question what what advice did you have for her in in terms of trying to kind of rebuild and get an opp a real opposition party back in the state yeah I mean it's all about this is you know basically what I saying about New England being so different than the rest of the country and needing its own messaging it's about having a big tent party right so if you have a big tent you welcome all different views I mean I've been using this for a million years as my example I don't get along or I don't agree with my mother my mother 100% of the time I don't agree with my children that I'm raising to be like me 100% of the time I don't agree with my best friend that I've been friends with for 45 years 100% of the time why the hell would I ever agree with any freaking politician that I've never met 100% of the time that is totally totally outrageous for either party to believe that you need to be just like AOC or aanna Presley or just like Donald Trump or or or uh Tom Cotton God help us but I mean it would be that would that would be insane to be exactly the same so I'm not going to have the same views as you in Oklahoma on gun rights I'm not going to have the same views as you in Kentucky on abortion I'm not going to have the same views on you know like a thousand different things right Free Speech my number one thing clearly because I hold myself back a lot um is but but other than that why shouldn't we have a big tent accept everyone and say listen if you're an independent but you believe in fiscal responsibility limited government you know all of these things then come on with us let's run you for office let's train you let's get you in the door because that independent may become a republican once they realize that we have good messaging and the messaging isn't that one-sized it's all it really varies I mean when I was chairman I had representative Brad Jones who's the um the leader in the house the Republican minority leader in the house and I had Jeff Perry on the cape they could or Don humson out in Westfield Massachusetts they could not have been any more politically different than each other but when I talked about the fiscal issues they were all in line on the fiscal issues and so the messaging has to be something that unites the party and not divides the party and the difference is with the person who shall not be named because I refuse to talk about his name anymore is that all he wanted to do was talk about the divisive issues and say if you don't agree with me 100% then I don't want to talk to you you're either a me person or a baker person you're either with me as pro-life or you could get out of my office and that to me is not a way to be a party leader a party leader is like a coach right it is you have some people who sit on the bench until you really need them and they're on your third string and you've got your you know number one player out that's always on the field you need that number one player but you need that third Stringer just as much because God forbid the other two players before him or her get knocked out you need that third string I think I think that that is I mean it it makes a lot of sense and um I think we we we sort of think about that a lot um one of the debates that we've kind of had on this podcast is like whether or not the two-party system really supports or continues to suit sort of the variety in I guess opinions or beliefs and values of different people from different places in in America right obviously you have the urban rural divide all all these different types of things that are that seek to try and put people in different buckets But ultimately they have to either align either Democrat or Republican um it sounds like from the big tent that the two-party system may be okay in your eyes as long as kind of the the things that we have to be consistent on as a party individually are limited in scope and that we have factions curious if that if I if I got that right or if you're thinking maybe we should be looking at in a in a different direction than we have been since our Inception basically well um that's well I I guess I have I have two different views right as a former party chair I do believe in the two- party system and um the the chairman of the democratic party in Massachusetts right now is Steve carrian who is a good friend of mine um and a great guy and and I God bless him and I told him I'm like good luck to you because when you win everything and you know you you own everything the only place to go is down where is Amy car Val the only place she can go is up and so you know I I think that Ste Steph is going to have a much tougher time than Amy because if she gets one win that's one win more than we've had in the last four years so um you know one loss to them is going to be devastating um but be besides that um the the so I do believe in the two-party system I and I also think it being both of my my undergraduate my graduate degrees are in American government and um so I think it's very difficult to run as a thirdparty candidate and not take votes away from one of the two major party candidates you know so I I think what Andrew Yang um and Chrissy Todd Whitman have done with the forward party is really remarkable um I follow them I read what they're doing I I would love to go to one of their events and just hear what they have to say um but I mean again like I I have good friends that are po iCal operatives on the left I can't imagine us working together for a candidate because I would have one view on something and they would have a totally different view on that thing and how do you advise that candidate and are you then are you not feeling great about the mission um you see what the Lincoln project had done right they were trying to get out Trump and and great they did a good job but you know it got to the point where there was a lot of Rift in the staff because there were a lot of liberals working with a lot of people that were internally very conservative and had been Republicans for a long time so um I don't know I mean I would love to see it I would love to see a third party emerge because maybe there's someone that has some sense of reasonableness like let's talk about term limits let's talk about age limits you know not to be an agist and be discriminatory but really like you've got Diane Feinstein there I'm sorry regardless of what party you're in you know she's got a go I mean so does uh what What's his name uh feather CH Grassley no well Chuck Grassley uh Mitch McConnell uh Chuck Schumer Pelosi um the pre the current president the past president I mean there's a whole Litany of them right and so I I think that you know it'd be interesting to hear from a third party and see if they have suggestions on on real democracy and making making substit changes that wouldn't ever come from either party that's really interesting Ricky and I actually just talked term limits on our past episode Ricky went on a rant at the end he was like I've never really been a believer of term limits but I I'm becoming more and more in favor of them given what's going on a lot of these places one other thing that he and I talked about in our past episode was the dangers of super majorities in state legislatures and we talked specifically about what was happening in Tennessee and what's been happening in Wisconsin and obviously those are Republican super majorities who I think Ricky and I both agree are really pushing the limits of their power and what they should be doing but Massachusetts obviously on the other side of things also has a democratic super majority and while I would argue they haven't done anything as egregious as the legislators in Tennessee or Wisconsin just last week and Ricky I don't know if you saw this but last year people have been following along they know that um Mass had this 1986 bill that sent what like once you had once the state got tooken too much tax money they had to send rebates based on how much you paid and last week the Democrats in the leg legislature changed that and everyone was getting a flat rate so no matter if you paid a million dollars in taxes or $100 in taxes you are getting the same rebate now if that ever happens again and there's really nothing anybody else could do about that because they have a a super majority and so this is where I it brought up Ricky what we had talked about and Jen I'm just kind of curious I'm sure you have thoughts on this too of like the danger of having just really a one party rule in a state that's not Ry I mean it's if I could if I could Define myself as um as as a warrior of something right other than increasing female participation in voting and and being you know being elected to office um running for office it would be a warrior for democracy because both parties are failing at the hands of of what we have right now which is not democracy you need to have you know when when the house flipped and all Democrats are oh my God the house flipped and the Republicans you know what you've got a president and you have the United States Senate chill out it's not didn't Rock the world you see what happened it's a small majority and Kevin McCarthy is gonna be out on his butt pretty soon don't worry about it right and and that's not because the Republicans are losing the house it's just he's going to go down with the with the Trump ship um you know other other than that as I deviate from Massachusetts Massachusetts is the same thing so you know right now you have a speaker of the house who is probably holding on to his you know old you know Democrat light status with you know all of his other old buddies who have been in the legislature for years and years and years um you know and never was considered a conservative Democrat until you know more recently when all of the Looney Tunes on the far left came in now at what point do they have to play footsie with those guys you know women and say okay you know rep Liz Miranda you know you're off the charts in like a totally different direction than we'd ever go but we need to Plate you so we're going to take a vote on this and we're all going to agree and again at the end of the day in Massachusetts what most people enjoy about living here is that fiscally the state has been more responsible hence why there have all been Republican governors in the corner office for 16 of the last 20 years in the mean time you know it's more socially I would say not even liberal just libertarian do whatever you want live your own life and don't bother me with you know with all of that and and it has worked well but now with a legislature where we have a 200 member legislature 25 of those members are actually Republicans Republicans have no voice no say no nothing and you have to rely on those more conservative Democrats I just don't know how long they're going to last in the current push for everyone to be a super liberal yeah and that's where it gets like a little bit scary from anybody that's more independent and more conservative where like where where's the check at that point it doesn't really exist uh so just a couple things before we let you go Jen one one thing I've noticed in just following again podcast political Contessa is that something you've talked about repeatedly recently is mental health and so can can you just share a little bit about like why that's been a topic that's top of your mind that you feel like needs to have more discussion yeah I mean well I mean I have my own um my own experience with mental health issues not on my own but um my brother was diagnosed with tret syndrome when he was 12 um when he was about 13 he was given a medication called hdll hdll is like an antis psychotic medication that's like a super super high they didn't know how to treat tets it ended up o over time um you know giving him hallucinations and he had serious side effects from it um ultimately you know was controlling his Tourette's he thought with drugs and then ultimately died of a drug overdose so um mental health to me is is very very important um I feel like a lot of what's going on today with kids in schools um whether it's the transgender stuff whether it's kids picking up guns and shooting other kids whether it's um kids committing suicide the suicide rate and the anxiety rates are so much higher today in girls the rate of um of Eating Disorders much much higher today um a lot of that is the result of covid of kids being at home of kids not having you know a social life kids hiding behind masks kids being scared to death that they're going to die if they don't wear a mask if they don't get a vaccine um and parents kind of not having the resources to deal with it there are you if you have kids and you're looking for a a therapist it's nearly impossible to find one so forbid your kid has an issue and so I just look at all of the things that are going on today in in as a mom I've got kids between the ages of 11 and 19 and and just thinking how sad it is for to feel so helpless and to feel like there's no one to turn to and not knowing what's going on with your kid and then you know your kid's ultimate you know ultimate demise um in in one of these terrible ways that I feel like you know we've we've been seeing lately yeah and so if people want to hear more about that you can get go go check out Chen's podcast political contest I think that was a a short but powerful statement on on that issue because it is it it seems to have permeated so much of our our lives here in the United States in the last few years not that it hadn't before but it's been especially kind of top of Mind really all right last thing for you in doing some research about you I saw that you worked in the Massachusetts state house from 2001 2002 under Governor Jane Swift who Ricky and I had on a couple of months ago it was honestly one of the most fun episodes she was hilarious so do you have any stories about working for governor Swift uh at that time oh my God it was like a hundred million years ago um but you know she she remains a good friend um and someone who I just am in awe of and everything she did I mean the woman was pregnant giving birth to twins in office and at the time I didn't have kids I was I just had gotten married and I I didn't understand it until I was pregnant with my own child thinking okay this is bad and then I was pregnant with my second one I was like okay this how she did it and this and unfortunately you know what she went through back then was so unfair the scrutiny that she went through and that's kind of what you know pocketbook project is all about right helping women who feel like well you know I saw what happen to Jane Swift or I saw what happen you know to you know another woman who is in politics and and how she was bered for her decisions and and that to me stayed with me all these years because um I I was a fan of hers and I I think she she was exactly the model of of the person not just a woman but any person running for office going from local office and going from the state house to to being the lieutenant governor and then while she was pregnant being left with being the governor of Massachusetts um but I think the scrutiny that women undergo generally I mean you see it with Nikki Haley now right and Don lemon's obnoxious comments you women have not it has not changed for us we're always scrutinized on how our hair looks our makeup you know our weight our clothing how our children behave whether we're married or not um and and that doesn't change and that hasn't changed unfortunately in all these years yeah that's fair and I think it's a it's a nice way to wrap and explain like really the importance of organizations like yours and the work that you do uh it was funny Ricky at one point was we we had talked about Governor s why she left politics and she was like look I I wanted to be with my kids just like paycheck wise familywise it made sense for me and Ricky was like sounds like you have no regrets you like I have regrets I would if I I would have freaking changed Society if I could have but she was like it just wasn't how it was so like we kind of that's I did the best I could with the circumstances with which I dealt and so uh but whatever she she was it was wonderful talking to her it's been wonderful talking to you again if people want to follow you or find you where are some place they can do that excellent well thank you um I'll plug political Contessa political Contessa uh.com we are on all different streaming so you can check us out on the website you can go check me out on Spotify and apple and all those things um you could tell I'm not you know I'm Gen X and I'm not [Laughter] I'm not gen why um and uh you can also look us up at pocketbook project.org um or you can follow me and sometimes my obnoxious comments or check out my new puppy on Twitter at Jennifer nasur beautiful uh well I hope people go and do that it's been wonderful talking to you thank you so much for your time we know it's very valuable so we really appreciate it thank you guys thank you for having me this is really fun yeah it's been fun finally getting to connect with you so um best of luck with everything and I'm sure we'll we'll stay in touch well that was that was great yet again we're uh very fortunate to have um the guests that join us join us uh it was funny you know our listeners are not going to be able to see this but her her brand new puppy was gnawing on her fingers pretty much the entire time but you would I I mean she's seems to be a pro at like at working through distractions not she's used to have a bunch of balls in the air so it wasn't anything for her to record a podcast while taking care of a brand new puppy child yeah I mean I I had I had a couple of thoughts it's I mean we I feel like we remark about this every single time um and and though it is morally and ethically irresponsible to surreptitiously record people I legally legally all those things but like it was you know we we got this after we after we sort of closed the interview she on her sort of departure way out she was sort of saying like I mean a lot of what a lot of reiteration of what she said just where does someone like her fit in today's Republican party when like the focus that she has is the fiscal responsibility like where are my tax dollars going I want to make sure that they're going to support things that I think that we all need and that that really in in many ways like support me back you know I want my tax dollars to invest back in me and then um and sort of saying but the sort of the Republican platform and well lack of platform but dialogue being so focused on guns and abortion and transgender rights and things like that that are not where she feels at home because she doesn't share many of those specific views on social issues um that like yeah where where does she go and I think that's that is both like a local issue for Massachusetts Republicans um but clearly one that is kind of nationally pervasive as well so I I I thought that was an interesting uh tidbit that we caught but didn't quite catch on the podcast yeah it's not surprising to me and I think speaks directly to the issues that we just discussed about why there is only one Republican representative in all of the New England states at this point and she is arguably the most moderate Republican in the Senate and also my favorite senator for like all of those exact reasons I think we need more Susan Collins's in the legislature but but that's I think that's been the frustrating part for so many what I would term just like traditional conservatives over the the past six seven eight years at this point like you look around and you're just like where where do I fit and I think that's why you've seen such an exodus from the Republican Party both at the state level here in Massachusetts but also at the national level it's just it doesn't seem like there's a place for you and I give Jen a ton of credit because she's one of those people that's like clearly staying in the fight where she's being like I'm not I'm I am going to fight for like kind of the soul of my party and what I believe that it should be as opposed to what it's become where I do think there's a fair amount of people perhaps myself included that have been like that's these people just don't represent me anymore and I don't want to be a part of it I don't to be affiliated with it and I think unfortunately you have too much of a drain of she she mentioned like the Lincoln project for example where it's like you have so many people that are like almost leaving the party where it leaves the party to like the primary voters you know essentially like the people that we've talked about it's the far the far right people now that now control the party and that that's really frustrating um so I definitely understand her frustration but also appreciate you know what she's doing yeah agreed I think one of the interesting things that she had talked about which is kind of very different from what feels like modern politics is this idea of rising through the ranks like starting out at some very local levels like a school board or a Town Council or something and then working your way through a State Assembly or you know what have you before before kind of getting to the National stage whereas now you know so many of today's politicians find ways to capitalize on hot button issues get a lot of publicity and then all of a sudden become a front runner in a race with really little to no political experience and while the moniker of being this like Outsider who's going to come in and shake things up is very sexy it I think to her point it yields very little results for people um in kind of like a a meaningful way and I think her anal or maybe not quite analogy but like you know running for Town C or city council you're thinking about things like Po holes and and like local speed limits and like other stuff that really affects the way that people live their life on a daily basis and this idea that you can kind of develop your value system in figuring out like well how do I tackle these small cases and then broaden that to larger and larger scale is something that may be really fundamentally missing from our current like another issue that we have with our current system in that it doesn't necessarily reward people who are coming up through the system now there is the other idea of like the career politician and right like we tal and and maybe and you can touch on I think you can sort of say there there's potentially a double-edged sword there or right maybe The Grass Is Always Greener perhaps but I I do think that's something that we haven't really touched on a lot about and I think that that is I think that I think it's a fair point yeah I definitely agree and I was going to say exactly what you said at the end there is that obviously the criticism of those people are like oh my God it's just a career politician who's always just trying to work up and get to the next level and make more money for themselves and more Prestige for themselves and you know you can be the outsider and say come drain the swamp right that's I'm I'm I'm gonna come in and shake things up but I mean that largely doesn't happen and even like the loudest voices on the right or the left like how much are they getting done versus people that are serving on town or city or school boards they're actually doing things you know like and and you have a record that then of like actually getting things done and like talking with people like Jen was acknowledging like that when she R from the Boston city council it's a nonpartisan election obviously there's partisanship that goes into it but you are used to being in a a room with 12 other people and talking together and trying to come up with solutions that really matter to people like you said whether potholes or trash removal or uh rats in the city whatever it is you know like but it's I do think there's something to be said for knowing how to get things done which when you're just shouting through a bullhorn about like far right or farle issues how what do you really know about getting things done one of other things she said that I thought was interesting was like the importance of having a platform and I've railed against now for years about the Republicans like lack of a platform and I think that's actually maybe even a bigger deal and I was making it because when you have like a consensus of like here's what we stand for all right well then I at least at least I know right what whatever it is at least I know that like I agree with that or I disagree with that this kind of like ambiguous Cult of Personality where Republicans for the last at least six or seven years have been just the party of trump it's like so it's it becomes either you're with him or you're against him and that doesn't lead to a big tent at all which is the opposite of what she was saying where like as the leader here of the party in Massachusetts she was like all right well here are the issues that we believe in you might believe in some other issues you might not believe in some other issues but if you're going to be these are the these are our core tenants and I like again when we talk about like traditional politics that's what it like that's why parties existed because it was like all right here are all the things that we believe in anyone that like agrees with those same things regardless of your other beliefs you we want you in our tent and that I do think that's something that's been lost certainly on the Republican side I wonder even a little bit on the Democratic side over the last few years oh I mean totally I I mean I think every even you know you can look at Democratic races in in Massachusetts alone right like so many things have become just this litmus test like how do you stack up against what we are you know the pro Progressive causes dour sort of thing right like are you you know enough yeah are you left enough on these issues and that is a real sort of shame because it really it limits the political diversity like within your party across aisles like all of that is like that idea of representation is still really important if only because you know one of the things that she was that that you both were rightly reflecting on it the idea of the super majorities especially at the state level is not necessarily just that okay there's nothing stopping some of these things but it's like even if we can agree on the problems without having proper debate on like what the solution should be how do we measure effectiveness of the solution we just kind of like March forth with whatever um the you know basically that like outside litmus test is that like oh we have to fund this or we have to tackle this issue by De you know by removing police what like whatever it is that is I think leads to more ineffective solution even if the solutions that come out of like more contested um sort of debates or whatever maybe may not go as far and may not have as far-reaching Ambitions those I think tend to like work better yeah in so yeah in so many ways and so that that is like something that we're really missing um in in yeah like across the Spectrum absolutely and it's it actually reminded me what you're saying at the end when we had Nela chin Swami on now guess almost two years ago now when she was pretty much I was like w what's the point of even being like a republican in the room at all at this point she she was like you got to be in the room because in the room then you can just push back a little bit you might you're not going to win this argument but you're just going to nudge people a little bit in your direction where that that check just doesn't exist it's interesting Ricky how sometimes like unintentionally we have these threads that go through episodes and across episodes of just like the importance of checks and balances and how for many of the reasons that we've talked about today and that we talked about last week we're we're losing that a little bit yeah I mean yeah like you always say it's all connected it's all connected that is what I always say but thank you again to Jen for joining us as as Ricky mentioned we continue to feel incredibly grateful that people like her give us a little bit of their time and thank you as always uh for everyone that listens if you want to follow you know where to do that if you want to follow us it's uh on Instagram aore gentlemen disagreement you can find us wherever well if you're listening to us I suppose you found us somewhere so which we appreciate yeah all right till next time see [Music] you Cas L head folks of different Minds because you know we did not share pain we share on that American ideal friends made over arguments in an early morning bu an early morning [Music]